Speaker 1: Today's quote is from Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. It's an old tweet,
Speaker 1: but it's a goody. She says. The reason women are
Speaker 1: critiqued for being too loud or too meek, too big
Speaker 1: or too small, too smart to be attractive, or too
Speaker 1: attractive to be smart is to be little women out
Speaker 1: of standing up publicly. The goal is to critique into submission,
Speaker 1: and that applies to anyone challenging power. Welcome to permission
Speaker 1: to speak. The podcast about how we talk and how
Speaker 1: we get ourselves heard with me samar By. Today's guest
Speaker 1: is Katie Hill. She was a congresswoman. She won her
Speaker 1: campaign for US Congress along with AOC and the blue
Speaker 1: wave of women and outsiders in the mid terms, and
Speaker 1: was seen as a star of the new class. She
Speaker 1: was thirty one years old. She had flipped a forever
Speaker 1: read district just north of l A. She had run
Speaker 1: the most millennial campaign ever, according to Vice, and was
Speaker 1: a true inspiration for progressives, for the queer community, for
Speaker 1: women everywhere. But then nude photos were leaked and allegations
Speaker 1: were made, and she was called both a victim and
Speaker 1: a predator, and rather than stay in fight, she surprised everyone,
Speaker 1: including Speaker Pelosi, and decided to resign last November, less
Speaker 1: than a year after she was sworn in. I wanted
Speaker 1: to have Katie on. First of all, because um, I
Speaker 1: followed her campaign in its early days. There's some amazing
Speaker 1: activist organizations in l A that did fundraising and canvassing
Speaker 1: for her and asked her tough questions. Shout out to
Speaker 1: momitivist and FIA and hang out to good hi guys, UM.
Speaker 1: But also I wanted to have her on because you know,
Speaker 1: she had the sort of public experience so that I
Speaker 1: think we all year losing total control of the narrative
Speaker 1: sexist double standards. She contemplated suicide, and she ultimately went
Speaker 1: out with the biggest of bangs, delivering a resignation speech
Speaker 1: on the floor of Congress in which she said, quote, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm stepping down, but I refused to let this experience
Speaker 1: scare off other women who dared to take risks, who
Speaker 1: dared to step into this light, who dared to be powerful.
Speaker 1: It might feel like they won in the short term,
Speaker 1: but they can't in the long term. We cannot let them.
Speaker 1: You guys, we swear a lot in this conversation we
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of the real shit, from how
Speaker 1: she decided that she could actually run to be a
Speaker 1: congress person with no prior political experience in the first place,
Speaker 1: to how she prepared that fateful speech and what happened after,
Speaker 1: including her new book and her political action committee that
Speaker 1: she started to fulfill the promise of that speech. And um,
Speaker 1: she may or may not have had two glasses of
Speaker 1: rose while we talked, which was honestly so perfect, and
Speaker 1: we are now rethinking the whole show to record during
Speaker 1: happy hour. Moving forward. Um, guys, this is Katie help.
Speaker 1: I actually want to start by just going back back
Speaker 1: to what made you decide you wanted to run? Sure
Speaker 1: if you had kind of like an aha moment, Oh absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean the aha moment was well, start back at
Speaker 1: the beginning. So I was never planning on running for
Speaker 1: office in the first place. I thought maybe i'd do
Speaker 1: something in politics. At one point, I thought I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a speechwriter. Um, but I wasn't. That's interesting. Well,
Speaker 1: probably just did that at one point because I was
Speaker 1: an English major and he's like, you, you could write
Speaker 1: speeches for politicians, and um, and I thought that would
Speaker 1: be cool, But I yeah, that wasn't really something you're like,
Speaker 1: what if the politician in question is me? But like
Speaker 1: that just wasn't really on the radar, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It just wasn't really something that occurred to
Speaker 1: me until um, until much later. So I was. But
Speaker 1: I just mean like having the speech writing you know, ability,
Speaker 1: or having having that as a as a concept, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of obviously a lot of politicians sort of
Speaker 1: need help with like how to put a speech together.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that you know a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't know this, but the last speech that I gave
Speaker 1: I wrote completely on my own. I didn't have anybody
Speaker 1: else help with it. I didn't feel like I could,
Speaker 1: so needless to say, I'm going to ask you a
Speaker 1: bunch of questions about how you prepped for that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: when I started, I was basically I was the executive
Speaker 1: director of this huge nonprofit called PATH People Assisting Homeless.
Speaker 1: It was the largest homeless services organization in California. It's
Speaker 1: gotten even bigger since I left, and I'm really proud
Speaker 1: of the work they do. But um, when you know, so,
Speaker 1: things were going really well on what we were doing.
Speaker 1: We had advocated for these ballot measures at the local
Speaker 1: level UM in the city and County of Los Angeles
Speaker 1: that would have a huge impact on peop and we
Speaker 1: were successful. But at the same time that those passed,
Speaker 1: Trump won, and I, like women across the country, was
Speaker 1: absolutely horrified, and specifically for the work that we were
Speaker 1: doing with the nonprofit that I was with. We knew
Speaker 1: that having a Republican House and Senate and having Donald
Speaker 1: Trump as president meant that everything we did was in
Speaker 1: jeopardy and the people we served, the most vulnerable people
Speaker 1: in our communities, were at serious risk for literally their
Speaker 1: lives um because of you know, how social programs would
Speaker 1: be cut and how healthcare they were. You know, the
Speaker 1: first thing on their agenda was to try and get
Speaker 1: rid of the Affordable Care Act, which is which had
Speaker 1: literally saved people from dying on the streets. And I said, okay,
Speaker 1: I need to do something. So, you know, obviously, clothing
Speaker 1: the House was our next electoral opportunity, and I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll get involved in that somehow. So I literally go
Speaker 1: to Swing Left UM the website and I type in
Speaker 1: my zip code and much to my surprise, the nearest
Speaker 1: Swing district was the was the one that I'd spent
Speaker 1: my entire life in where I still lived and where
Speaker 1: I had grown up, and you know, having grown up there,
Speaker 1: I thought it was going to forever be a Republican stronghold.
Speaker 1: It was, um. You know, it's got Santa Clarita and
Speaker 1: Semi Valley and the Antelope Valley and these are places,
Speaker 1: you know, southern California that have long histories of being
Speaker 1: staunchly Republican and and you know, often very racist. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's got a storied past. But so when I saw that,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. There's
Speaker 1: actually a chance to flip my own district. And so
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna get involved in a campaign.
Speaker 1: But sure enough, this is this isn't about late January
Speaker 1: early February of at and um, and then I looked
Speaker 1: at who was running and and no one had officially
Speaker 1: announced yet. But the person who was the most likely
Speaker 1: too was the guy who had run the last time
Speaker 1: and had lost, even though he lost by six, even
Speaker 1: though Hillary Clinton had won by seven. So I, uh, well, A,
Speaker 1: I want to support a woman if I can, and
Speaker 1: be I don't think this guy can win. He wasn't
Speaker 1: from our district. And I thought he had a lot
Speaker 1: of other issues as a candidate. So I'm complaining about this,
Speaker 1: right And I'm saying I want a woman, who are
Speaker 1: you complaining to a number of different friends and mentors
Speaker 1: and in mainly in the in my workspace and um.
Speaker 1: And so finally one of them said to me, She's like, Kay,
Speaker 1: you're complaining an awful lot about this. Why don't you run?
Speaker 1: And I'm like but and so then I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I thought about it overnight, and then the
Speaker 1: next morning in the shower, I was, you know, contemplating this.
Speaker 1: And it was in the shower that I was like,
Speaker 1: fuck it. If if Donald Trump can become president of
Speaker 1: the United States, why can't I run for Congress? You
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like it was kind of one
Speaker 1: of those moments you're like, I've been successful. I've done
Speaker 1: all these things. I matched this profile of a person
Speaker 1: that should be electable in my district, that grew up there,
Speaker 1: that's the daughter of a police officer and a nurse
Speaker 1: and put themselves through school and da da da da,
Speaker 1: and and so I remember getting out of the shower
Speaker 1: and thinking this is totally crazy, but I'm gonna see
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see about this. So I texted her, the
Speaker 1: woman who had suggested it to me, and she was
Speaker 1: she worked for an an Elle County supervisor and had
Speaker 1: been involved in politics and advocacy for a lot longer
Speaker 1: than I had. And so I'm like, so, what if
Speaker 1: I actually do this? Like where would I even start?
Speaker 1: And um, So we got together for coffee and I
Speaker 1: followed a few other different random connections and very quickly, uh,
Speaker 1: it came to fruition. And um, then my life changed
Speaker 1: in a pretty big way. So you know, there's so
Speaker 1: many statistics and you've referenced them recently about you know,
Speaker 1: women holding themselves back, that that that we worry about
Speaker 1: our age, we worry better experience, we were better credentials.
Speaker 1: Like how did you talk to yourself about that specifically,
Speaker 1: because obviously you're on the young end. Yeah, well, honestly,
Speaker 1: I mean that was out. Was the big thing is
Speaker 1: that I'd always I've always been the young person, right,
Speaker 1: I always just in my career, I had advanced early,
Speaker 1: and so, um, I had to get comfortable with being
Speaker 1: the young person in the room and having more authority
Speaker 1: in power than you know, as usual for somebody my age.
Speaker 1: And having to be taken seriously when most people that
Speaker 1: you're negotiating with or are trying to bring along to
Speaker 1: your side or whatever, even supervising or sometimes decades older
Speaker 1: than you. So I had probably more confidence around that
Speaker 1: than than many would, just because I had to grapple
Speaker 1: with it earlier. But I swear the biggest thing was
Speaker 1: that that I saw what is supposed to be a
Speaker 1: politician does not matter anymore. The rules around all of
Speaker 1: that have been shattered if this guy can become president,
Speaker 1: not in a good way, not in the way that
Speaker 1: we want them to be shattered, but they are. And
Speaker 1: so I thought, um, you know that there is no
Speaker 1: reason that I should be held back or that anyone
Speaker 1: else should be held back if they're running for the
Speaker 1: right reasons, when this guy who was running totally for
Speaker 1: the wrong reasons managed to get elected. So you know,
Speaker 1: because I guess it was that kind of rationalization that
Speaker 1: was like the big push for me. Yeah, But I mean,
Speaker 1: and also there's just you know, that's that's relevant for
Speaker 1: all of us who are thinking about stepping into any
Speaker 1: type of leadership position, is like, you know, if we
Speaker 1: want to see better leaders, maybe it's us, And maybe
Speaker 1: the experience that we've had in the rooms we've had
Speaker 1: just trying to be taken seriously is actually, you know,
Speaker 1: in the case in your case, that is actually what
Speaker 1: leadership experience or politics, you know, political experience is. It's
Speaker 1: not having run for office before, it's having had to
Speaker 1: work to you know, have authority in a room. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and also I think that people who have worked
Speaker 1: on the front lines of any you know, social issue
Speaker 1: have this lived experience and just this practical experience of
Speaker 1: how the laws and and the the ways that people
Speaker 1: govern actually impact um, you know, day to day lives
Speaker 1: and and for me specifically the most vulnerable people in
Speaker 1: our communities and um And So when I have young
Speaker 1: people frequently asked me, you know, if I want to
Speaker 1: get into politics, if I'm thinking I want to be
Speaker 1: a politician later, what do you recommend I do with
Speaker 1: these are college and high school students. I'm like, the
Speaker 1: best thing that I can recommend is to work in
Speaker 1: a nonprofit, work in in the whatever you're passionate about.
Speaker 1: It could be the environment, it could be women's issues,
Speaker 1: it could be you know, whatever kind of social services.
Speaker 1: But do the hands on work and and make sure
Speaker 1: that you're doing it for the right reason, and that
Speaker 1: will prepare you for whatever you want to do in politics.
Speaker 1: And um, I just think that that's so much more
Speaker 1: applicable than going to law school and doing some constitutional stuff.
Speaker 1: So and getting further and further away from you know
Speaker 1: that you're going to be representing, literally, but such good advice.
Speaker 1: It's such it's so like, it's so practical. I wonder
Speaker 1: also if you could tell us, because you are the
Speaker 1: first congress person I have had on this show. Oh nice,
Speaker 1: thank you for that, right, a little bit about what
Speaker 1: the actual experience was like when you were working there.
Speaker 1: I want to know us specifically in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: the group of you guys who came in and like
Speaker 1: what kind of conversations you had quietly as you were
Speaker 1: sort of trying to understand what the power dynamics were. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that was a that was fascinating and that was
Speaker 1: so exciting. And um, you know, so we got elected
Speaker 1: on November what was it November? I can't even remember
Speaker 1: the days anymore totally, even more now than before. But
Speaker 1: we got the day after we got elected, those of
Speaker 1: us who knew that we we'd won the next day, Um,
Speaker 1: we got an invitation and we've even gotten this before
Speaker 1: of if you win, hold these dates because you're immediately
Speaker 1: going to go to orientation. And it was the following week,
Speaker 1: so it was the election was on a Tuesday. You
Speaker 1: needed to be in Washington by the following monday for
Speaker 1: starting your orientation. So UM, basically that was that was
Speaker 1: when it begins, and you you go and you meet
Speaker 1: all these other people had who had won and who
Speaker 1: and so many of us were you know, we weren't
Speaker 1: politicians at all, right, this was our first run for
Speaker 1: any kind of office, and so we were we had
Speaker 1: no idea what we were doing, but we felt like
Speaker 1: we were in a we were very much in there
Speaker 1: with a mandate to um to kind of shake things
Speaker 1: up and to do things differently and too fucking save
Speaker 1: the country from this monster. And um. So there was
Speaker 1: that excitement and that energy, and we had all these
Speaker 1: women who had won, and many of the women knew
Speaker 1: each other from the campaign trail because Emily's List had
Speaker 1: supported us, and so I got to know a bunch
Speaker 1: of the women before even the primaries were over. And
Speaker 1: then that continued and then those of us on that
Speaker 1: were called red to Blue, those of us who were
Speaker 1: in the highly competitive Republican seats. UM were we also,
Speaker 1: you know, we're around each other all the time during
Speaker 1: the campaigns, so you know, it wasn't all unknown. But
Speaker 1: then there was this kind of mixing of everybody who
Speaker 1: had come from these blue districts, these solid blue districts,
Speaker 1: and you know, there were sixty of us, and you
Speaker 1: go into this orientation and you're just completely bombarded by
Speaker 1: so much information. One of the pieces of information is
Speaker 1: that you have to basically elect these leaders for all
Speaker 1: kinds of different positions before we ever are even sworn in.
Speaker 1: And so we were getting sworn in on January three,
Speaker 1: and UM, so this is this is the middle of November.
Speaker 1: At this point, we found out that there was going
Speaker 1: to be a freshman representative to leadership, which was it
Speaker 1: was a relatively new position, but it was one that
Speaker 1: UM the Speaker designated for the freshman class to have
Speaker 1: UM to have a voice at the table. And that's
Speaker 1: you know, that's a big deal, especially since we were
Speaker 1: coming in there. I think many of us thinking we
Speaker 1: were going to have to have basically a big old
Speaker 1: fight with the establishment to even have our voices heard.
Speaker 1: So we thought great, that's exciting. But we also said
Speaker 1: there are sixty freshmen, which is a quarter of the
Speaker 1: more than a quarter of the of the Democratic caucus,
Speaker 1: and so I mean, that's a big number. So a
Speaker 1: couple of us made the argument that if we're a
Speaker 1: quarter of the Democratic Caucus, we should have more than
Speaker 1: one seat at the table. So we made the case
Speaker 1: that it should be too, and Janah Goose from Colorado
Speaker 1: and I, um, we basically said we'll run together. And
Speaker 1: it was it was, you know, it was pretty like
Speaker 1: pretty good political maneuvering for very early on. And um,
Speaker 1: like it was you know, that was that was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. But also we I wanted to be
Speaker 1: at that table if I was going to have the opportunity,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be in the room with Nancy Pelosi
Speaker 1: and everything like that. And so got we got to
Speaker 1: and um and but then it was then the responsibility
Speaker 1: that you have is becomes huge. It becomes you are
Speaker 1: the liaison between leadership and the freshman class. You were
Speaker 1: the one who is supposed to take whatever the freshman
Speaker 1: classes feeling and saying and want wants to prioritize and
Speaker 1: reflect that in these leadership meetings and Um, it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, you were literally representing two different bodies. But
Speaker 1: yeah and um yeah, your constituents and the class, and
Speaker 1: that's not they didn't always align exactly right. You had
Speaker 1: to kind of balance that, um, And I often also
Speaker 1: had to say, you know, this is the overwhelming view
Speaker 1: of people in the freshman class, but like it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily mine. So I had to kind of balance that.
Speaker 1: But I learned so much by being in that position,
Speaker 1: just in terms of how the deals are made. What uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the history of these people who have been
Speaker 1: in Congress for so long, and you know the speaker
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi especially, just just in awe of how she
Speaker 1: did things. And this is the beginning of a new
Speaker 1: Congress where Trump is finally going to be UM held
Speaker 1: back a little bit because the Republicans obviously for two
Speaker 1: years it left him completely unchecked. So it was it
Speaker 1: was really an incredible time, and I'm very lucky and
Speaker 1: glad that I was there. I am too, thank you. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you're resignation speech, I want to talk about, like
Speaker 1: practically speaking, I mean, you referenced having written it yourself,
Speaker 1: you said more than you needed to, you know, you
Speaker 1: said very boldly I'm leaving. But we have men who
Speaker 1: have been credibly accused of intentional acts of sexual violence
Speaker 1: and remain in boardrooms, on the Supreme Court, in this
Speaker 1: very body, and worst of all, in the Oval office.
Speaker 1: I want to know, like how you prep for that, especially,
Speaker 1: I mean obviously during such a like insanely heightened emotional time,
Speaker 1: But what was your thought process about what you wanted
Speaker 1: to say? So I had um and I wrote about
Speaker 1: this in the book, but literally the day after I well,
Speaker 1: I decided to resign, was in this dark depth of
Speaker 1: depression and then, UM, you know, contemplated very seriously contemplated suicide.
Speaker 1: And when I decided not to, when I when I
Speaker 1: got out of that space. Um, the next day was
Speaker 1: when I when I woke up and decided I needed
Speaker 1: to write this speech because and when I was going
Speaker 1: to give it and everything like that, and I knew
Speaker 1: I wanted to give it. I wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: that I that I actually gave a speech. I didn't
Speaker 1: need to give a speech, right that was, but I
Speaker 1: wanted to and um, and so I got up and
Speaker 1: I just started I just started on it, and a
Speaker 1: lot of it just came out right. It was just.
Speaker 1: But but I knew a number of the points that
Speaker 1: were really important to me. UM, one of which was
Speaker 1: that I was you know, I wanted to reflect that
Speaker 1: I was sorry, that I was sorry for everything that
Speaker 1: was sorry for. I was sorry for what I've done.
Speaker 1: I was sorry for stepping down. I was sorry for
Speaker 1: letting people you know, uh, letting people down, and and
Speaker 1: my responsibility for it. But I also wanted to point
Speaker 1: out that this is you know, the expectations that we
Speaker 1: have for women and the and I think the pressure
Speaker 1: that I felt, even from myself to resign is very
Speaker 1: different from from those that you know, we have towards men.
Speaker 1: And that's an example, if I had by Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: who has been accused by over twenty five women of
Speaker 1: sexual misconduct, and you know that that probably runs a
Speaker 1: lot deeper than we even know. So UM, I felt
Speaker 1: like it was important to kind of to reflect on
Speaker 1: that and to and to say, you know, I'm stepping
Speaker 1: back now for a number of reasons, including that I
Speaker 1: did not want to be a distraction. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be used as a tool. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: be weaponized against my colleagues or or a distraction, just
Speaker 1: as the impeachment hearings exactly. But I also I wanted
Speaker 1: people to know that I that I recognized where there's
Speaker 1: an injustice right and that I that I'm going to
Speaker 1: find a way to to continue to fight that. And
Speaker 1: my role is different, but I don't want I wanted
Speaker 1: people to know that there them having worked on my
Speaker 1: campaign or UM supported me in whatever way, that I
Speaker 1: that I was going to make sure that it was
Speaker 1: still worth something. It wasn't in vain. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: And I mean we're going to take a quick break
Speaker 1: in a second, and then we're going to talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly what you have done. But before we do,
Speaker 1: I want to just I want to linger here for like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is on on some sort of sort
Speaker 1: of fundamental level. This podcast is about public speaking and
Speaker 1: our sense of power when we stand up to talk,
Speaker 1: and I wish I would I would love you to
Speaker 1: talk about like what the physical feeling was of like
Speaker 1: making yourself walk out there, what it felt like to actually,
Speaker 1: you know, give that speech. And also if you've listened
Speaker 1: back and if you have any kind of things that
Speaker 1: come up, you know, yeah, yeah, actually I have not
Speaker 1: listened back to it, and it's in full. I've seen
Speaker 1: the snippets that people sometimes replay before I, um, you know,
Speaker 1: before I come onto a show, or that I've I've
Speaker 1: just caught parts of, but um, I have not sat
Speaker 1: and listened to the entire thing. And honestly, I think
Speaker 1: that that would be really hard to do. Um, But
Speaker 1: I mean, I also work in Hollywood, and like actors
Speaker 1: don't like to look back at themselves either, totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to know about like what was going through head.
Speaker 1: I can't remember how you decided to take a breath
Speaker 1: when you did, you know, like what it was to
Speaker 1: actually step out there, because the version that you delivered
Speaker 1: was really even Yeah, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: I don't think that was an accident. I really did
Speaker 1: feel like I had to completely steal myself for it.
Speaker 1: And I've described it this way before, but you know,
Speaker 1: I put on that I'd never worn that red dress before,
Speaker 1: my mom had bought it for me, and um, I
Speaker 1: was waiting for the right occasion to wear it, and
Speaker 1: like that was the not caasion that it was intended.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but but it was meaningful to me. It
Speaker 1: was defiant. It was in a way that I felt
Speaker 1: I felt like I identified a lot with Hester Prynne
Speaker 1: in the Scarlet Letter, and I felt like it was
Speaker 1: my own kind of version of that. Um. But it
Speaker 1: was also I'm not hiding away. I'm not want to
Speaker 1: wear a demure or neutral color. I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be bold on my way out and um. And so
Speaker 1: I put that on it if it felt like my
Speaker 1: battle uniform, and and the red lipstick on, I put
Speaker 1: the makeup on. I did the whole thing. I went
Speaker 1: through the routine of you know, what you do every
Speaker 1: day as a woman getting ready for something, but I
Speaker 1: made it it felt very intentional, like those those steps
Speaker 1: of getting ready felt or were very intentional. And and
Speaker 1: that whole time, I'm like psyching myself up for whatever
Speaker 1: this mission is. And for me, I knew that my
Speaker 1: performance in that moment was um. You know, it was
Speaker 1: the last thing I was going to do in Congress.
Speaker 1: It was the last thing I was going to do
Speaker 1: as a sitting member of Congress, and it needed to
Speaker 1: show who I was and what this meant going forward,
Speaker 1: and what this meant to so many people in different capacities,
Speaker 1: right the ones, you know, the people who had looked
Speaker 1: up to me, the people who had worked on it,
Speaker 1: my family and my staff, and I felt like I
Speaker 1: had a great deal of responsibility to to do it right.
Speaker 1: So I got picked up by one of my staff
Speaker 1: members and like literally and picked up in a car
Speaker 1: to go there. So that was the first time I
Speaker 1: had seen him in a while. And and his name's Paul.
Speaker 1: He was just he's just phenomenal and um, anyway, he
Speaker 1: gave me some like I don't know. There was something
Speaker 1: about that car, right, and it's like a seven minute
Speaker 1: car ride from where I was living to Capitol Hill
Speaker 1: that felt calming that he was like, well, you're ready,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I guess so, and um, and was
Speaker 1: just it was just something about that, you know, being there,
Speaker 1: and like both of us kind of we knew we
Speaker 1: were gonna have to have this walk into Capitol Hill
Speaker 1: where all the cameras were going to be and all
Speaker 1: the all the photographers and and sure enough, they've used
Speaker 1: that photo of me walking into Capitol Hill with Paul
Speaker 1: in the background like a million different places. And I
Speaker 1: didn't want to show any kind of weakness in that moment.
Speaker 1: And so when I went to give the speech, you know,
Speaker 1: I had the same thing in mind so I walked up,
Speaker 1: I took a deep breath and delivered it. I knew
Speaker 1: that I had to speak more slowly than UM than
Speaker 1: you normally do. I didn't want to my voice to crack,
Speaker 1: and it felt like a you know, that was my moment, right, like,
Speaker 1: that was the moment that I had to I just
Speaker 1: had to get right. What do you think would have
Speaker 1: happened if you had shown more weakness? I feel like
Speaker 1: we all struggle with like what, you know, what is
Speaker 1: this version of tough that we need to show the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're probably right in that moment,
Speaker 1: but you know, also for you, yeah, well I think
Speaker 1: that was part of it, right, is that I had
Speaker 1: I felt like I had shown so much weakness on
Speaker 1: my own separately, right like I and not even not
Speaker 1: even at like fault for that, but just that I
Speaker 1: kind of exhausted my emotions. I had gone as far
Speaker 1: as I could with them and UM, and at that
Speaker 1: point it was it was like a it was like
Speaker 1: a mission, it was a it was a duty. It
Speaker 1: was this. It was the point of it, and the
Speaker 1: point of the speech was to show that in spite
Speaker 1: of everything I was, I felt strong and I was
Speaker 1: going to continue to do work, even though it wasn't
Speaker 1: in the way that I intended to. So I don't
Speaker 1: I think that showing vulnerability, showing you know, emotions in
Speaker 1: all kinds of different situations, is appropriate and encouraged. And
Speaker 1: there have been plenty of times where i've you know,
Speaker 1: I think even the when you talked about seeing me
Speaker 1: at that first event after I think I cried while
Speaker 1: I was talking there. Um, So I don't have an
Speaker 1: issue with that, but it was the most important thing
Speaker 1: for me at that moment, was was defiance, And because
Speaker 1: of that, that's why I wanted to you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I didn't want to show anything else.
Speaker 1: And truthfully, I felt that at the time, right, Like
Speaker 1: I I felt like I had internalized that well. And
Speaker 1: it also strikes me. I mean you you had been
Speaker 1: put in a vulnerable position, so it didn't probably feel
Speaker 1: like allow me to show you more vulnerability, right right? Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good one. Okay, We're gonna take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then come back and talk about your book
Speaker 1: and your back. We're back. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: She Will Rise and your hack Her Time. You've said
Speaker 1: that your inspiration came from asking yourself, how can I
Speaker 1: fight for the issues I believe in and actually change policy,
Speaker 1: and more importantly, how can I change the power dynamics
Speaker 1: and change the face of power. I mean, this podcast
Speaker 1: is all about changing the sound of power. So, like, obviously,
Speaker 1: you know resonate on your team, and I know you
Speaker 1: had reelection money when you resign, and so this was
Speaker 1: like a sort of an obvious progression, or maybe it
Speaker 1: wasn't obvious, But can you talk about what the thought
Speaker 1: process was and why this pack is different than other
Speaker 1: groups that help encourage women to run. Yeah. So, so
Speaker 1: members of Congress who resign or who lose or um
Speaker 1: for one reason or another are no longer running for
Speaker 1: reelection um. They have two different choices. One is that
Speaker 1: they can just leave the money there, and many do
Speaker 1: because if you ever run for federal office, no matter
Speaker 1: how long it's been, you can basically reactivate it and
Speaker 1: use it for your next run. So I had I
Speaker 1: had people and you know, at this point you're talking
Speaker 1: to campaign lawyers and uh to just kind of try
Speaker 1: and figure out everything because it's like a total change
Speaker 1: and everything. Um it just kind of the emotional level.
Speaker 1: So so they were kind of explaining this stuff to me.
Speaker 1: And but I but I knew that I didn't want
Speaker 1: to do that. I felt like it was disingenuous, um
Speaker 1: to the people who I just felt like I needed
Speaker 1: to do something meaningful with with that money, for all
Speaker 1: the people who had supported me. And you had like
Speaker 1: a million dollars, Yeah, it was a lot. And um.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been one of the most successful fundraisers
Speaker 1: before I was elected and then after for my re election,
Speaker 1: I was, you know, of of all of us. Why
Speaker 1: do you think that is, Katie. That's a good question.
Speaker 1: I don't really know, I think and I've told people
Speaker 1: this before when when I've given women advice on fundraising,
Speaker 1: I say that you can't feel like you're asking for
Speaker 1: the money for yourself. You have to feel like you're
Speaker 1: asking for it for a greater cause. And and you
Speaker 1: are you you know, you're not running for office for yourself.
Speaker 1: You're running for your office to do something with it.
Speaker 1: I mean, actually, this is probably a second half of
Speaker 1: the answer about being a nonprofit Parson. Yeah, exactly, So
Speaker 1: that that was exactly what some things I've said, is
Speaker 1: that you working in the nonprofit sector, you also get
Speaker 1: very comfortable asking for money and um. And you know,
Speaker 1: women are naturally we're naturally not as good a fundraisers
Speaker 1: as men because of we're trained not to do that.
Speaker 1: We're trained that it's rude, We're trained that, you know,
Speaker 1: we're trained to be kind of uncomfortable talking about things.
Speaker 1: We don't want to ask for stuff for ourselves. Money
Speaker 1: is literally been talking about money exactly and um. And
Speaker 1: so when you're in the nonprofit side, and I worked
Speaker 1: in development and fundraising for a long time, so so
Speaker 1: for me, it was very easy, like I'm not running
Speaker 1: for office because this is fun or enjoyable or easy.
Speaker 1: I'm running for office because I felt like I needed
Speaker 1: to do something. And uh. And so you know, when
Speaker 1: I'm asking for money, it's not to line my pockets.
Speaker 1: It's to go to this thing, right. And it was
Speaker 1: the same exact way when I was doing it for
Speaker 1: the nonprofit sector. You know, I'm asking for it because
Speaker 1: we're working on this really important mission. So that's what
Speaker 1: I tell people is that you know, you don't And
Speaker 1: that was also still something nonetheless that I had to
Speaker 1: I had to practice and learn and get better at
Speaker 1: um as a candidate because it's still felt different at
Speaker 1: first because you did feel like you were asking for
Speaker 1: it for yourself, and especially when you have to start
Speaker 1: with your personal circle, because you don't have anyone else
Speaker 1: to ask, like, yeah, I'm asking my my freaking high
Speaker 1: school friends for fifty dollars. That's that's the hardest time
Speaker 1: to to start raising that initial money, which is also
Speaker 1: part of the reason that I started her time. Because
Speaker 1: the initial point to get to you know, viability, or
Speaker 1: to be taken seriously as a candidate, or to um,
Speaker 1: you know, to to really be somebody who's seen as competitive,
Speaker 1: you have to raise some initial money. And if you're
Speaker 1: a new candidate, if you're a first time candidate, if
Speaker 1: you're not coming from a political background, if you're not
Speaker 1: coming from money, that is really hard. I've been there.
Speaker 1: I know how hard that is. So what I had
Speaker 1: asked you is how how your pack is different. And
Speaker 1: I know you've talked about going after candidates who's who
Speaker 1: might be the or risks, but like they're better better
Speaker 1: fit for their own district. Yeah. Yeah, So that was
Speaker 1: the other pieces that many organizations do see packs, etcetera.
Speaker 1: I won't get involved in primaries. They even the women's
Speaker 1: organizations a lot of times don't want to get involved
Speaker 1: in primary if it's a woman on woman race, or
Speaker 1: they don't want to get involved if the person doesn't
Speaker 1: if it doesn't. This is this is a total common theme,
Speaker 1: is that if it if the person seems like they're
Speaker 1: not gonna win, like they don't have much of the chance,
Speaker 1: there's no regardless of if they're the person who should yep, exactly,
Speaker 1: and so they just don't take that. They don't take
Speaker 1: that bet. They don't want to. Um, and I get
Speaker 1: it right, you're you know you you raise money, you
Speaker 1: want to spend it in ways that are going to
Speaker 1: be effective. Well, the way I see it is that
Speaker 1: we're filling a gap that there are many organizations who
Speaker 1: will fund you once you get to a certain point
Speaker 1: and help you make it from you know, here to here,
Speaker 1: but there are very few people who will help you
Speaker 1: make it from here to here. Um. For anybody listening,
Speaker 1: that was the second one was a lot smaller of
Speaker 1: a gap. Yeah. Sorry, I realized it's not a the
Speaker 1: gestures were maybe not so helpful, but um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it's it's kind of like if it were on
Speaker 1: a if it were on a curve, then and I'm
Speaker 1: still using hand gestures now, but not words. I know,
Speaker 1: we should just put this up on my hands. I've
Speaker 1: been thinking that a lot, by the way, because I
Speaker 1: started this podcast and then I'm like, wait, but people
Speaker 1: have told me my whole life that I'm so expressive
Speaker 1: with my face, and I'm like, I just cut off
Speaker 1: the whole side of mine. You know it. Well, I
Speaker 1: started making when I started doing all these podcasts, I
Speaker 1: started asking the person who's helping me schedule and I'm like,
Speaker 1: can you tell me if they're supposed to be video
Speaker 1: involved or not? Because a few times I showed up
Speaker 1: thinking that there was no video and yes, and then
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh wait, right right right, I actually I
Speaker 1: put on lipstick, but it's only because of you. It's
Speaker 1: for you. This is my thank you so much? It
Speaker 1: totally um so yeah, that that's that's kind of the
Speaker 1: point behind it is that like what we'll take risks
Speaker 1: and and you know, the people I'm fundraising from, I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to make the promises that all the candidates
Speaker 1: are gonna win, that we're going to have this track
Speaker 1: record of you know, I don't even care if we
Speaker 1: if half of our candidates win. I think that it's
Speaker 1: still successful if if we get any wins, and if
Speaker 1: we're setting these people up to win down the road,
Speaker 1: or if we're making a dent in the electoral turnout.
Speaker 1: That's the other thing is that once one organization with
Speaker 1: a certain amount of credibility gets in, others will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: they think it's possible then, and then they start to
Speaker 1: get in and then they literally become less of a
Speaker 1: long shot. Yeah, exactly exactly a huge kind of gap
Speaker 1: in what needs to happen and that you're able to
Speaker 1: do as a pack. That's not just about directly giving money,
Speaker 1: as you can mobilize, and so there's a there's a
Speaker 1: real we Women are a very strong voting block democratic women,
Speaker 1: especially women vote more than men. But that is really
Speaker 1: like at the older ages that we've seen that and
Speaker 1: women at the older ages are not necessarily inclined to
Speaker 1: vote for other women, and so women as a voting
Speaker 1: block from like the ages of eighteen to forty five,
Speaker 1: we want to figure out how to mobilize them not
Speaker 1: just to show up in a presidential election, but to
Speaker 1: show up in every single election and specifically vote for
Speaker 1: women because they're women, and that we want actually we
Speaker 1: actually want representation, We want to get to parity, and
Speaker 1: it's not it is it. We don't have any shame
Speaker 1: in saying that you should vote for women because they're women,
Speaker 1: Whereas that's I think that's what historically been kind of
Speaker 1: like a a taboo thing to say, and even women
Speaker 1: have shied away from it, like I don't want to
Speaker 1: support just because a woman. I'm like, yeah, you should
Speaker 1: support women because they're women. There's all kinds of all
Speaker 1: kinds of research to back that up. Plus there's just
Speaker 1: the fact that we need to have equal representation. I
Speaker 1: think it's so genius that at the most basic level,
Speaker 1: what you're interested in is taking bigger risks finding people
Speaker 1: who might be bigger risks but worth it because I
Speaker 1: feel like you're superpower because of what you went through.
Speaker 1: Is um like not being risk averse, Like you know,
Speaker 1: shitty stuff went down, so like what is there to
Speaker 1: be afraid of? I mean, you know, there continues to
Speaker 1: be because life is complicated, but like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: something really real about that. And it makes me think
Speaker 1: of this quote I have from your book. You said
Speaker 1: women continue to feel unsafe in both the real world
Speaker 1: and online when we are assaulted. Even from the time
Speaker 1: where little girls, our minds are already warped to the
Speaker 1: point that we are afraid it's our fault if a
Speaker 1: man hurts us. We worry that we won't be believed
Speaker 1: or that we will feel shamed if we come forward.
Speaker 1: And those concerns are founded in harsh truths that, my friends,
Speaker 1: is the patriarchy winning. That's misogyny thriving at the most
Speaker 1: fundamental level. If we can't even have a basic expectation
Speaker 1: of safety, how can we claim our power? Yeah? You know,
Speaker 1: I mean my question, of course is so how do
Speaker 1: we claim our power? And your whole book is sort
Speaker 1: of an answer to that, And I think talking about
Speaker 1: parody is a massive, massive part of that. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: and I think that's exactly it is, that all of
Speaker 1: these things kind of coincide and that you're not going
Speaker 1: to have or depending on each other. I guess right.
Speaker 1: Men don't understand that same kind of risk that we feel.
Speaker 1: Are that that that vulnerability that we feel around physical safety,
Speaker 1: They just aren't. They're not exposed in that way. There.
Speaker 1: I remember from the time that I was, you know,
Speaker 1: very young, you're taught as as a girl, you don't
Speaker 1: go out by yourself. You don't. You can't ride your
Speaker 1: bike alone. You don't, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: you're you. Boys have just all this freedom because they're boys,
Speaker 1: and because they just don't. They're taught that you're you're strong,
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to be a victim. But girls,
Speaker 1: it's the opposite. You need to watch out for everything.
Speaker 1: And so I think that I think that just having
Speaker 1: grown up with a totally different experience, there are many
Speaker 1: men that I think are sympathetic to that who want
Speaker 1: women to be safe, who who who think about it
Speaker 1: in this like savior kind of mentality. That's not necessarily
Speaker 1: a bad thing, but also it is not is not
Speaker 1: a It might be more of a sympathetic thing than
Speaker 1: an empathetic thing. And it's not going to get prioritized
Speaker 1: in the same way um as people who really get it.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna turn into legislation that that translates into
Speaker 1: the real world, and that translates as meaningfully if you
Speaker 1: if you haven't been raised with exactly the kinds of
Speaker 1: concerns that we're trying to address. So and this is
Speaker 1: why you're saying vote for women because of women. It's
Speaker 1: not because of the vagina part of the woman experience experience,
Speaker 1: and that we have so many shared experiences as women.
Speaker 1: I wonder how, I mean, especially for those of us
Speaker 1: who follow you on Twitter, how like humor sort of
Speaker 1: please its way because obviously we were just talking about
Speaker 1: it's like so dark, right, and obviously you've talked really
Speaker 1: publicly about suicide. You've talked about the connection between statistics
Speaker 1: about suicidal thoughts and cyber exploitation. And then on the
Speaker 1: other hand, like you know, you're are fucking hilarious, thank you,
Speaker 1: and your tweets are like, so you just recently said, um,
Speaker 1: I had a few former colleagues text me today and
Speaker 1: say I'm so jealous. You can say whatever you want now,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, well, and then a little stroke
Speaker 1: there's a trade. Yeah, yeah, that was real. Like I actually,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I think. Earlier in the day,
Speaker 1: I had I had used a couple of curse words,
Speaker 1: and so people a couple of my my old friends
Speaker 1: from Congress saw that and we're like, we're like, I
Speaker 1: wish I could say that. And I think a few
Speaker 1: people who well lots of people who commented were like
Speaker 1: they should be able to say whatever they mean to,
Speaker 1: and and I should have. I should have clarified they weren't.
Speaker 1: They're not saying, they're not not saying what they mean.
Speaker 1: They just are not as unfettered with it. I mean
Speaker 1: literally politics, right, I mean there are reasons we have
Speaker 1: to be politics when we're in whatever employment situations, and
Speaker 1: when we're not, we don't. Yeah, And now I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't get your your own Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: I've got nothing. I've got nothing holding me back from that.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, if I ever do run again, then
Speaker 1: it this is me, truly, you know. I had at
Speaker 1: least Hogan recently, the president. They were all so wonderful
Speaker 1: right of her. And one of the things she said
Speaker 1: when I asked her, like what people should really be
Speaker 1: doing to prepare to run for office besides you know,
Speaker 1: learning how to fund raise, besides the practical stuff, And
Speaker 1: she was like, think about being proud of your life.
Speaker 1: M M. That's great advice. Yeah, right, because just to
Speaker 1: sell it, you have to sell your back story more
Speaker 1: than anyone, right. You need to. You need to be
Speaker 1: able to translate that to why people should support you.
Speaker 1: You need to be able to translate that to um,
Speaker 1: you know, how you're going to do a good job,
Speaker 1: and and holding that pride and bragging. We are not
Speaker 1: naturally inclined to brag about ourselves, and you have to.
Speaker 1: And in order to brag about yourself, you have to
Speaker 1: be proud of yourself. Yeah, I was just gonna say,
Speaker 1: I have a book deal and I'm also writing a
Speaker 1: book and it's about the same stuff. Thank you. As
Speaker 1: as permission to speak, I mean, the whole idea right
Speaker 1: of how do we give ourselves permission? And part of
Speaker 1: it is that, you know, inevitably we brag quote unquote
Speaker 1: better when it's on behalf of other people. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's everything you already talked about, like when you when
Speaker 1: you get up to speak, you're not really in almost
Speaker 1: no circumstances. Are you just doing it for you right? Right?
Speaker 1: But we forget that when all the eyes are on
Speaker 1: us and we're like, oh, I'm asking for money, I'm
Speaker 1: the one doing the thing, you know. Yeah, we must reconnect.
Speaker 1: But there are actual studies that show that there's a
Speaker 1: fundamental difference between the motivations for why men run for
Speaker 1: office and why women run for office, and we should
Speaker 1: take we should take pride in this too, that when
Speaker 1: and this is a study of members of Congress from
Speaker 1: several years ago. Every member of Congress was asked why
Speaker 1: they ran, what what made them decide to do it,
Speaker 1: and the majority of the women said that they did
Speaker 1: it because they you know, they wanted to do something
Speaker 1: good for their community. They um, they wanted to help people,
Speaker 1: things like that, that's kind of compassionate descriptors. The majority
Speaker 1: of men said that they had always wanted to be
Speaker 1: a politician. And so when you talk about like doing
Speaker 1: it for other people, we have that, we have that innately,
Speaker 1: We have that, you know ingrained in us as truly
Speaker 1: our motivation. And that's not necessarily it for guys. Nancy
Speaker 1: Pelosi does a great job of saying this, and she
Speaker 1: doesn't she doesn't separated based on gender. I think she's
Speaker 1: she's still loved the generation who would never want to
Speaker 1: say vote for a woman because she's a woman. Um.
Speaker 1: But she says that you know, great candidates and members
Speaker 1: or politicians or whatever know their why. And to be
Speaker 1: able to to be effective, you have to know your why.
Speaker 1: You have to know what motivates you, and you have
Speaker 1: to be able to share that with other people and
Speaker 1: I just think that that's something that we are naturally
Speaker 1: better at. And I saw, you know, I was with
Speaker 1: other candidates on the trail over and over and over again,
Speaker 1: and you really did see like they were just not
Speaker 1: as many men who could tell the same compelling stories
Speaker 1: about why because and I guess it's because I don't
Speaker 1: think that they had as good a reason. I just
Speaker 1: don't think they did. Whereas you had these women get
Speaker 1: up and they were talking about how their mom, you know,
Speaker 1: died because she didn't have health insurance, and they saw
Speaker 1: the Affordable Care Act that was in jeopardy, and they
Speaker 1: decided that they had to run against their sitting congressman
Speaker 1: because he wouldn't host a talent hall about it. And
Speaker 1: you just like that amazing documentary that Alexandra was in,
Speaker 1: was the other three women to exactly final question this
Speaker 1: is from my friend Jessica, who was one of the
Speaker 1: people who went door to door for you, and I
Speaker 1: asked him if she had any questions, and she wanted
Speaker 1: to know what you thought about your if your voice,
Speaker 1: if the way you expressed yourself has changed as going
Speaker 1: from a you know, a private citizen to campaigning to
Speaker 1: you know, obviously being a congress person and then sort
Speaker 1: of being an advocate. If you feel like you've noticed
Speaker 1: sort of a change, I mean you've also grown a
Speaker 1: literally you know age during that. Yeah, if you if
Speaker 1: you think about that and how you can help us
Speaker 1: to think about our own evolution, oh for sure. Well,
Speaker 1: I think part of it is I was comfortable in
Speaker 1: my skin for what I was before I became a politician.
Speaker 1: You know, I was confident in my role. I knew
Speaker 1: that I was an expert in my field. Um, and
Speaker 1: so I embraced that and I and I felt confident
Speaker 1: when I was speaking about that. You know, anytime, if
Speaker 1: you if you want to talk to me anything about
Speaker 1: homelessness or housing, I could go into any room with
Speaker 1: anybody there and know that I was I was an expert.
Speaker 1: And so getting to that point again as a candidate
Speaker 1: and having to know enough about all the issues running
Speaker 1: for a campaign and running especially in a primary. I
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, what you have to know about is
Speaker 1: stuff that you just like Democratic primary voters have zero
Speaker 1: forgiveness for the fact that you're new. Because I was
Speaker 1: getting these things thrown at me that I'm like, fucking no,
Speaker 1: I knew a lot more about policy than I think
Speaker 1: many people do in in a diverse array of areas.
Speaker 1: But but certainly I wasn't an expert in everything, and
Speaker 1: you kind of have to become pretty damn close to
Speaker 1: an expert and everything very quickly. And how do you
Speaker 1: like honor those moment when somebody you know is trying
Speaker 1: to sort of put you on the spot about for
Speaker 1: me that's obviously very close to their heart and you're like, yet,
Speaker 1: literally don't know yet, but that doesn't mean I won't
Speaker 1: know right exactly. And being able to answer that well
Speaker 1: and know how to, you know, to come off as
Speaker 1: as smart and confident but also knowing what you don't
Speaker 1: know and willing to learn. Is that's a that's a skill.
Speaker 1: That's something that you have. You have to kind of
Speaker 1: learn how to do as a candidate. So there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of things you have to learn to do as
Speaker 1: a candidate that you just didn't have to do before
Speaker 1: um and then as a member it changes entirely because
Speaker 1: you're now you now have this authority that you didn't have.
Speaker 1: You you were trying to convince people, you were trying
Speaker 1: to bring people on board. Now you are the authority
Speaker 1: and you're trying to you're trying to make people feel better.
Speaker 1: You're even going to people who didn't who didn't support you,
Speaker 1: but who you serve. Now you were elected to serve
Speaker 1: the entire district, the entire community. Um. You don't get
Speaker 1: to decide that you're just supporting or you're just helping Democrats.
Speaker 1: Should we let Donald Trump know that that's how you know,
Speaker 1: Like it would be great to tell a lot of
Speaker 1: people that. Um. But so so that was an evolution
Speaker 1: and um. And of course again the having to become
Speaker 1: confident in all these new things that you didn't know before,
Speaker 1: and also the language that you were able to have
Speaker 1: on the campaign changes once you become a member of
Speaker 1: Congress too, because you are more restricted just in terms
Speaker 1: of there are more considerations now you want your elected
Speaker 1: official to be like serious and really to to take
Speaker 1: all of this seriously and to take their job seriously.
Speaker 1: I mean the rules around that are changing as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know it's hard to navigate. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I don't know that we've all figured that out, but um,
Speaker 1: or that we've figured it out at all. I mean
Speaker 1: there's like this this concept of authenticity and then you're
Speaker 1: like right, and and how do I, you know, actually
Speaker 1: apply that because there are different versions of me. I'm
Speaker 1: I do know that when I'm being more formal, it's
Speaker 1: not totally me, right, totally, yeah, exactly. And and so
Speaker 1: then I guess now right coming into coming into my
Speaker 1: own again, where I am unrestricted. I don't have any
Speaker 1: other or there's no one else that I'm representing except
Speaker 1: for the groups that I feel like, the groups of
Speaker 1: individuals who I feel like I naturally represent that, you
Speaker 1: know that, whether it's women or just underrepresented people, or
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community or um, you know, young people. I
Speaker 1: think that there's there're just other ones that kind of
Speaker 1: naturally happen, and I feel like I'm I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: be a voice for them, but I can be whatever
Speaker 1: whatever voice just happens that way, whatever whatever comes to mind.
Speaker 1: So to me, there's a great deal of of you know,
Speaker 1: new power that's gained that way. I'm just gonna say
Speaker 1: what I want to say, and um, you know, some
Speaker 1: people won't like it. Like every time I use a
Speaker 1: curse word, I have people be like, I really wish
Speaker 1: you wouldn't talk like that, or I cringe every time,
Speaker 1: you you know, use the vernacular. I've read that comment
Speaker 1: the other day. I wonder if you were a man
Speaker 1: if I'm sorry it just happen to podcast. But yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but and even I mean, we should take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then would come back and find out who
Speaker 1: you brought in for us. But I also want to say, like,
Speaker 1: even you know, I heard your your Madaline Brand interview,
Speaker 1: even just like talking about the gray area nuance of
Speaker 1: being a victim of abuse and and and like trusting
Speaker 1: that you can actually be in that gray area and
Speaker 1: actually think thoughts about how you can improve yourself as
Speaker 1: well as how you know you can hold other people accountable.
Speaker 1: I'm like, thank you for being a fucking person. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not nothing, Katie, that's like huge. Yeah. And I
Speaker 1: feel like that's one of the reasons I I feel
Speaker 1: obligated to talk about it because I honestly, and I
Speaker 1: talked about it in the book too, But I honestly
Speaker 1: I haven't heard you know, others, even people like Al
Speaker 1: Franken or others who who you think I want to
Speaker 1: kind of recover from. I don't know something they've done.
Speaker 1: I just I just don't feel like people talk about it,
Speaker 1: So I don't know there's really just like the pr
Speaker 1: spin way of doing things, and then there's like showing
Speaker 1: up as a person and saying what what feels true? Okay,
Speaker 1: quick break, we'll be right back. So, um, Katie, who
Speaker 1: did you bring in for us? Yeah, so I am.
Speaker 1: I brought in Kamala Harris and we get to see
Speaker 1: her tonight. So yes, we're recording this on Wednesday at
Speaker 1: like five o'clock Western Pacific. I mean and m and
Speaker 1: she's like going to go on there like any time now. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you, I love it. Yeah, No, she was. She
Speaker 1: was an obvious one for me because I had supported
Speaker 1: her from the very beginning as for her presidential campaign,
Speaker 1: and so clearly she was someone who has inspired me
Speaker 1: for a long time. And I just can't wait to
Speaker 1: see how she When you talk about evolving and maturing
Speaker 1: and growing into new roles, this one's just going to
Speaker 1: be incredible for her completely. I have a little tiny
Speaker 1: thirty second clip I'm gonna play for us, and then
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about her for just a minute. Great.
Speaker 1: I specifically wanted to pick a moment with Kamala where
Speaker 1: she was not on a big stage, not doing a
Speaker 1: big speech, and not in like prosecutor mode, but actually
Speaker 1: being conversational. Uh. And I found this amazing interview with
Speaker 1: her and Sarah Cooper. Do you think that women need
Speaker 1: to be more like men or do you think men
Speaker 1: need to actually be more like women? I'm first of all,
Speaker 1: the toughest people I've known in my life have been women.
Speaker 1: So um, and so it's just it's actually just bullshit.
Speaker 1: Let's just start there. And you know it is. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, you think about, um, what
Speaker 1: there are still myths right about what women can and
Speaker 1: cannot do, right in spite of what a woman does
Speaker 1: every day? So good right her. Um, this whole interview
Speaker 1: with with Sarah Cooper is like so on on the
Speaker 1: themes of what we're talking about. I mean, it's so
Speaker 1: abo how we show up and what the obligations are
Speaker 1: and aren't and you know how we're sort of all changing.
Speaker 1: Sarah Cooper asked a really early on in this how
Speaker 1: we the electorate start voting for people not based on
Speaker 1: their performance quote unquote, but based on how well they'll
Speaker 1: actually lead? Yeah? I like that, you know, so this
Speaker 1: moment is so lovely, right, I mean she just asked
Speaker 1: the obvious question, like all this stuff about having to
Speaker 1: be tough, Is it just that women have to act
Speaker 1: like men in order to win? Yeah? Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that one of the things that that Kamala has,
Speaker 1: I think she straddles that. She she's she's at the
Speaker 1: age where, for a long time, I think you did
Speaker 1: have to be more like a man, or were expected
Speaker 1: at least to act more like a man and um.
Speaker 1: And so I think she went through a lot of
Speaker 1: her career like that. I mean, she is a tough
Speaker 1: as nail as prosecutor. You've seen it. She's she made
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh cry right but um but but she also
Speaker 1: has this this very genuine, authentic laugh and um. And
Speaker 1: she cares about people. And I think that that when
Speaker 1: you when you are able to find that balance of
Speaker 1: authenticity and toughness, that's when we are our strongest. I've
Speaker 1: definitely felt like their moments when the strength outweighs the warmth,
Speaker 1: probably because of her prosecutorial ground and how that's like actually,
Speaker 1: you know, rewarded in those certain rooms. And then it's
Speaker 1: lovely to see that. You know, she's a great reminder
Speaker 1: that we can be different in different rooms, and there
Speaker 1: it's still us and also, I mean I love what
Speaker 1: you what you pointed out, which is that like the
Speaker 1: more the older she gets, the more power she has,
Speaker 1: the more she also has a little bit more like
Speaker 1: privilege to spend, and so she can spend it, you know,
Speaker 1: calling bullshit when she when she sees it. And ideally
Speaker 1: we can all do that when we're younger too, But
Speaker 1: it's like it is easier when you've earned your ship,
Speaker 1: you know, and totally but also like the times have
Speaker 1: changed too, and I think that you know, we've we
Speaker 1: often see that, I think with women from an older
Speaker 1: you know, older women politicians, how empowered or disempowered they
Speaker 1: feel about what they can say versus those who are
Speaker 1: coming up now. And you know that it's credit to
Speaker 1: those who forged the path that we're able to have
Speaker 1: this kind of freedom now and and hopefully we're able
Speaker 1: to continue pushing that forward as um, you know, for
Speaker 1: the next generation. Yeah, and I feel like you've forged
Speaker 1: that path. I mean truly, I really, really really want
Speaker 1: to thank you for joining us, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm excited. I have to say, I actually was a
Speaker 1: little bit nervous because I was, like, I have a
Speaker 1: bunch of vocal tics that that I've also let get
Speaker 1: worse because I haven't been doing this. What do you
Speaker 1: think are your vocal texs? Oh, they're the total so
Speaker 1: cal things that I have, Like all the time. I
Speaker 1: do a lot of the not stutters, but kind of
Speaker 1: I go back and repeat the last word sort of thing. Um,
Speaker 1: I have the ums as I just did. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: those they're different things. I mean, we're this is a
Speaker 1: very loving space where we talk about all that stuff
Speaker 1: in the in the context of like, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: we should feel empowered to whatever exorcize the ticks that
Speaker 1: don't work for us, but also like embrace the ones
Speaker 1: that are just representative of our identity. And so often
Speaker 1: it's just like that exact same um and that exact
Speaker 1: same you know, sometimes vocal fry comes up that a
Speaker 1: man can get away with a woman feels like she can't.
Speaker 1: And so I'm here to obviously say, like the patriarchy interesting,
Speaker 1: I'm just curious to get your theory on this. You
Speaker 1: can use this part or not. But just yesterday I
Speaker 1: had a a guy here from the neighborhood where I'm
Speaker 1: visiting who said he had a theory that I I
Speaker 1: am taken a bit more seriously, like I have an
Speaker 1: immediate gravitas that as a woman that other women sometimes
Speaker 1: don't have because I have a naturally deeper voice. And
Speaker 1: I'm interested if you have any thoughts on that. Look,
Speaker 1: that is very stereotypically a thing. You know, There's two
Speaker 1: different things I want to say. One is our voice
Speaker 1: is higher, sometimes just because of our natural anatomy, and
Speaker 1: sometimes because we're us, or we we have sort of
Speaker 1: gotten habitually to this point where we're are. What comes
Speaker 1: out sounds like we don't have power. So if we're
Speaker 1: talking up here, it could just be because of our anatomy,
Speaker 1: but largely it's not. And so what we're hearing is
Speaker 1: somebody who's cut themselves off from their sense of power.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, right, So if what we're your your voice
Speaker 1: is not necessarily that low, right, it's not like hi,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like your god bless what's her name?
Speaker 1: From them? Right? Um? Right, It's not that, it's that
Speaker 1: you're actually connected to your to your sense of power.
Speaker 1: You're breathing your your body. You're embodied, as I like
Speaker 1: to say, I mean like you're literally using your body.
Speaker 1: So I sort of don't want to throw women with
Speaker 1: higher voices under the bus. But there is something to
Speaker 1: be said for everybody listening to notice, like, am I
Speaker 1: really cutting myself off from my sense of power? Do
Speaker 1: I have chess residence? Or am I just coming? Am
Speaker 1: I just coming out from up here? So you know,
Speaker 1: that's that's totally perfect way of describing it. Because I
Speaker 1: had the person who replaced me at Path. She was
Speaker 1: my CEO and and then she became the deputy CEO
Speaker 1: CEO when I left. Um, she she's tying. She's just
Speaker 1: five ft maybe five ft one and a hundred pounds,
Speaker 1: and so she's got a naturally higher voice. But she
Speaker 1: totally is taken seriously. I think it might take a
Speaker 1: second longer for people to because she's also blonde and
Speaker 1: cute and tiny and and pretty and um and so
Speaker 1: I think it takes her a second longer for people
Speaker 1: to take her seriously. But when she does start talking,
Speaker 1: you know, she is confident. She does have but it
Speaker 1: is a high pitched voice in it, but I don't
Speaker 1: think it makes a difference for you know, how she's taken.
Speaker 1: So and then the other thing is that something that
Speaker 1: I noticed in uh in your resignation speech, and that
Speaker 1: you do sometimes, and that I bet comes from the
Speaker 1: you know, authoritative experience you have had, is it. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you don't use a huge amount of pitch, so it
Speaker 1: isn't like a lot of up and downing, which sometimes
Speaker 1: shows our vulnerability when we don't want to. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: like the swoopy southern California thing. It can sound really girly.
Speaker 1: I'm all for like using pitch variation, you know, I
Speaker 1: really want people to feel free. But when we don't
Speaker 1: and when we need to show some like take me
Speaker 1: fucking seriously, we often use a little bit less And
Speaker 1: so I think what he might be hearing is not
Speaker 1: necessarily the pitch as much as like, I am keeping
Speaker 1: my voice down here to make it clear that I'm
Speaker 1: in charge and I am not, you know, I'm unplappable. Interesting. Interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that. I'll have to tell him this. His
Speaker 1: theory is a little bit grounded in sexism. Whatever. I mean,
Speaker 1: like a dude telling you a woman about her voice.
Speaker 1: I mean, um, Katie, thank you, thank you. Wait, did
Speaker 1: you actually drink your rose plus ice cube? I've finished
Speaker 1: the lass of one. While we were talking, and and
Speaker 1: and very kind and generous soul brought me another one,
Speaker 1: so I have no shame anymore. You're chilling. It's like
Speaker 1: a fifteen now, so we know. But I feel like
Speaker 1: that's the that's the superpower. You're right that you put
Speaker 1: it better than me for sure, having no shame, dude, right,
Speaker 1: it's on your naked pictures are everywhere. You lose shame,
Speaker 1: Like it's just you can't have it more. It's it's
Speaker 1: truly what again, But like once you get past once
Speaker 1: you get past that, then it it is. It is
Speaker 1: a bit you know, empowering, and like that's why I
Speaker 1: decided I was going to take the the name for
Speaker 1: my podcast that's going to be starting soon that we'll
Speaker 1: have to circle back and you know, um swap off
Speaker 1: on or whatever, Oh my god would be draining, but
Speaker 1: I um, I decided to call it Naked Politics because
Speaker 1: you know, I think that there's you're taking back the
Speaker 1: narrative I'm trying to do. And you've and I know
Speaker 1: you've talked to Montica Lewinsky as well. Yeah, the times
Speaker 1: have changed so much in the last I mean even
Speaker 1: in the last few years. Let alone, I'm like along away.
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes deeply hopeful and sometimes like oh shit,
Speaker 1: am I accidentally being hopeful because really, like we're seeing
Speaker 1: same patterns happen now for over, you know, but I'm
Speaker 1: inherently help. I mean, the whole point of my book
Speaker 1: is like, this is the world that we're heading towards,
Speaker 1: as is yours. Yeah, I mean I think I think
Speaker 1: we have to be hopeful, and I believe it still,
Speaker 1: And you know, it was something I learned from being
Speaker 1: in the in the world of trying to solve you know,
Speaker 1: one of what I think is the most difficult problems
Speaker 1: in society, which is homelessness. You you're faced with so
Speaker 1: much difficulty every day, and and in in Congress it's
Speaker 1: the same thing, right, You see these problems and you're like, fuck,
Speaker 1: how are we going to solve these? Were so far
Speaker 1: away from being able to do it. But you have
Speaker 1: to have this general hopefulness that like, we're gonna chip
Speaker 1: away at it as much as we can. We're gonna
Speaker 1: help one person at a time, We're gonna, um, you know,
Speaker 1: change this little piece that might have an impact on
Speaker 1: some people somewhere, and some actions are going to be
Speaker 1: bigger than others. And that's that's all you can do.
Speaker 1: We just have to keep going. There's no other option
Speaker 1: if you if you fall into despair, then what is
Speaker 1: the point of anything? Uh time or other drink for um.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Thank you to Katie Hill for
Speaker 1: joining me. You can find out more about her book
Speaker 1: and her pack in the show notes or on our
Speaker 1: website Permission Speak pod dot com. I'm doing I G
Speaker 1: Lives every Thursday, guys, so join me there tomorrow at
Speaker 1: Permission to Speak Pod. It's Q and A style, so
Speaker 1: you know, ask me actual questions or just you know,
Speaker 1: watch it afterwards and learn something new. And as always,
Speaker 1: you can send me d M s at Permission to
Speaker 1: Speak Pod on Instagram or submit through the website. Let
Speaker 1: me know what's going on with your boys, let me
Speaker 1: know if this conversation brought up anything for you. Let
Speaker 1: me know what you think about women needing to sound
Speaker 1: tough and strong and like a man to be taken seriously.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and all of you. We're recording this podcast
Speaker 1: at various locations around Los Angeles on land that is
Speaker 1: the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, and
Speaker 1: you can visit us d A c dot us US
Speaker 1: to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak
Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio and Double Vision
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark Canton. For
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