WEBVTT - Revenge: Bitter, Not Sweet 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.880 Hey, everybody, get this. We have a mind bending announcement 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:06.880 to make the Stuff you Should Know episode on Vinyl 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.920 is now on vinyl. You can learn about records by 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.200 listening to a record. It's possibly the first time a 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.520 podcast episode has ever been put to wax, and we 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.040 did it along with our friends at bourn Loosers Records. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.880 It comes in three awesome colors, black, white, and a 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.920 super cool splattercore and you can order it for pre 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.960 sale now at syskvinyl dot com. Records will ship on 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.960 October twentieth, just in time for Halloween, whatever that means. 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.519 So go to sysk vinyl dot com right now to 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.920 get this super duper limited edition, super cool stuff you 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.599 should know thing a record on records. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:55.800 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know. A production of iHeartRadio. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.400 Welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.679 Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you Should Know, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:12.600 the podcast about Revenge. Revenge. We've done an episode on 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.520 it was like a top ten on cases Legendary Cases 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.280 of Revenge. Oh yeah, I remember that, but we didn't 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.720 talk much about Revenge itself, and I felt it was 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.680 high time. We've been dancing around it for decades now. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.400 And here we are I thought, this is a great idea, 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.880 So kudos to you because it. Dave helped us out 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.920 with this one. And it's a lot of like science 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.480 and studies have sort of and I'm not going to 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.920 spoil anything, but have sort of produced results that fly 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.040 in the face of what one might typically think about 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.880 revenge and what it means for the person getting the revenge. 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:56.400 Yeah, I think most people how we feel about revenge, 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.240 it's from watching movies and it's like deeply satisfying to 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:06.040 watch the bad guy who deserves revenge get their come upance, right, 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.120 sure is, or even be killed just like, yes, that 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.480 guy deserved that kind of thing. But in reality carrying 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.640 out acts of revenge or they just it's not like 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.560 the movies, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.560 And yet there's a lot of evidence of revenge in 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.959 real life, so much so that the New York Police 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.440 Department came out with a study in twenty twelve and 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.720 found out that forty two percent of the homicides in 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:37.600 New York were motivated by revenge. Man So, and that 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.760 actually kind of underscores like a problem with revenge is 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.880 that when you enact vengeance on somebody and you leave 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.840 them alive, almost invariably that person feels like you overdid 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.640 in response to what they did. It was disproportionate, So 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.480 now they have to strike back again, and it can 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.880 go back and fourth until somebody dies or else somebody 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.280 can die right away is the first act of revenge. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.280 But the point of the whole thing is is that 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.720 once you do carry out revenge, no matter if it's 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:15.360 petty exciting somebody up for spam or killing somebody in 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:20.480 response to whatever slight like road rage, they cut you 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.600 off in traffic, you don't feel good afterward. You actually 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.600 feel worse. And that's the underlying point of this entire episode. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.360 Yeah, you know, my favorite Petty I don't do it, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.240 but my favorite petty revenge to witnesses is when and 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.560 it's so dumb, everyone just settled down, is on a highway, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.040 when someone is on an expressway and they clean their 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.520 windows and it gets all over the car behind them. 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.280 I see people all the time race in front of 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.120 that person and do the same thing back then. 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.640 God, really, yeah, that is petty. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.040 That is Tom Petty. That's not Tom Petty. Could Thom 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.520 Petty was great. That's just and I also wanted to 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.160 say too, you talked about revenge, coming back harder or whatever. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.760 Emily has her own personal saying, like when we're messing 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.280 around and I like I will do something to her, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:14.800 or I'll say something kind of mean as a joke, 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:19.440 she'll eviscerate me, and she calls it coming back double. 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.480 She goes, I come back double. Oh boy. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.280 He's one of those people that think she gets pushed 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.880 into corner and man, she comes out hard. So it's 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.359 a good trait, I think, and one to be wary of. 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.240 At the same time, Yes, I'm suddenly way more wary 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.799 of Emily than I was before. Luckily, I've always stayed 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:37.520 on her good side. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:39.680 Yeah, you wouldn't come at it Emily anyway, You're smart. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:39.880 No. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:46.320 So there's a lot of questions revolving around revenge. If 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.240 if we know for a fact it feels good to 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.799 think about, but then it feels bad to do despite 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.440 the fact that we're thinking about it, where like this 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.640 is going to feel good, it's not the act of 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.479 thinking about it that feels good. It's fantasizing about how 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.960 good it's going to feel to get that person back 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.920 to set the universe right again, to do all sorts 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.520 of things that revenge allegedly does. And it turns out, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.600 when you carry out an act of revenge, you are 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:18.360 playing the chump to evolution on behalf of society as 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.719 a whole, and that's kind of like the whole basis 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:26.800 of revenge. There's an evolutionary instinct that's very very old. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.320 It's found extensively in the animal kingdom, and it really 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.920 collides with the modern evolved humans that live in these 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.440 complex societies we've formed today. When you put those two 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.160 things together, an interesting podcast comes out. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:44.120 That's right. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.679 What you're talking about in the animal kingdom is also 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:52.160 called retaliatory aggression, and that is the idea that so, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.680 let's say a lion mama goes out and kills an 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:01.120 animal to leave for her little cubs to eat. Another 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.760 animal is like, ooh, you know, let me see if 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.479 I can sneak in there and eat some of that too. 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.320 The mama lion doesn't just scare this thing off to 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.480 preserve that meat for the kids. The mama lion goes 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.920 and hunts down and kills that animal. Yes, that's they 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.960 come back double Emily style right. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.040 I mean, like the problem solved, the hyena has been 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.520 chased away, But to leave your kids and go find 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.760 it and kill it, that is seems retaliatorially aggressive. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:34.360 Yeah, and this next one too, I'm gonna mention these 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.599 are interesting because it made me sort of question the 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.720 idea of revenge versus punishment, right, because I think those 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.520 are different things. But the Teresis monkey, We've talked a 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.839 lot about their vocalizations, like they're all about the group, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.880 or they should be at least, And like when they 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.440 find food, let's say they will tell everyone, hey, I 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.960 found food. But if a Riesei's monkey is ever like, 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:54.719 you know, I'm gonna have a little bit of this 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.920 first before I call out. And if they find that out, 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.640 there's a punishment for that Reese's monkey. I don't think 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.760 they kill it, but there is a punishment. And this 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:10.480 is the idea that these retaliatory aggressions are deterrence. It's 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.760 like a punishment for everyone to see to prevent future 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.680 trans aggressions like hey, did you hyena see that? Did 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.760 you other Reesis monkeys see that? So that, you know, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:25.480 would be an advantageous thing evolutionarily speaking, So that gene 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:26.200 gets passed on. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.160 Yeah, because the more the more you're prone to do that, 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.760 the likelier you are to not have food stolen from 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.040 you for your kids, the likelier it is for your 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.160 kids to survive and your lineage to survive. So it 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:45.200 makes sense evolutionarily speaking, this retaliatory aggression does at least right. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.800 Yeah, which I would still argue is punishment more than revenge. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.160 I think there's an emotional component that's missing, but we're getting. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.720 To that absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And there's 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.200 a story, a couple of stories of tigers actually engaging 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:04.320 in can only be described as revenge, and it's very 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.680 much up in the air whether what we're witnessing is 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.800 actual revenge. But like, like, there was a very famous 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.960 story out of Russia where like a poacher not only 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.880 shot a tiger but also took some of their kill, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.800 and that the tiger tracked the guy down, found his 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.600 little lodging, destroyed everything he could find in the lodging, 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.600 and then waited outside for the hunter to come back 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.320 and then kill them. And that the tiger managed to 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.640 hold this idea in his head. I think it was 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.800 her her head for up to maybe twenty four hours 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.079 after the hunter shot her. There's a couple of stories 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.880 out there that seem to pertain to tigers specifically that 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.080 it's almost like it does contain an emotional component to it. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.040 But for the most part, yes, it's it's solving a 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:55.199 problem and then maybe preventing future problems among the animals. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:55.800 Yeah. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.520 You know, one of my favorite sayings is revenge is 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.400 a meal best serve cold. I don't know why, because 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.080 I'm not a revenge guy really, but I just I 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:05.920 think that is just such a great saying. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:07.319 I just like it. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.000 You know, there's something about like, oh no, no, no, 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.200 the real revenge is like when he waited around. 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:12.360 For a while. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.000 Oh yeah, and then when you would might not be suspected, 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.400 you come back and take that revenge. 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.079 Yeah, because if you just immediately do it in response, 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.880 you're a hot head and a dummy. Anybody can do that. 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.920 But to sit there and really stew on it and 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.559 figure out the best way to really get back at 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.760 the person that takes intellect Yeah, I agree, and a 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.559 little bit of craziness. I just have to say. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.440 All right, so now we can get to the humans. 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.800 As far as evolution is concerned, we have that same 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:45.079 sort of instinct ingrained in our DNA for that retaliatory aggression. 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.600 Our ancestors when they were living in hunter gatherer groups, 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.960 was a lot of relying on one another, obviously a 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.679 lot of communication and cooperation, and thus a lot of 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:00.480 punishing to be done if people either were outsider people 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.480 inside the group didn't cooperate and do the right thing. 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.920 Yes, and so this is again the same thing what 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.520 you were talking about. You're punishing the person who transgressed. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:15.440 You're also deterring future behavior. And the more we became social, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.599 the more important this kind of stuff became, because we 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.320 started depending on other people, and so as a result, 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.120 we started monitoring one another, and that in and of 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:32.199 itself can act as a deterrent in the future, because 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:37.080 you know that there's a vengeance instinct, and there's a 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:43.240 set amount or set structure of norms and rules, and 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.600 then other people are watching you to see what you're doing, 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.120 and you're watching them, and that kind of creates an 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.199 atmosphere of conformity. And you say what you want about conformity, 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.040 but if you have a large group of people following 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.480 the same rules, you're taking care of a really basic 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.800 problem and issue and you can then kind of evolve 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.200 more into more and more complex societies. Yeah, that's I 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.040 saw one person say that revenge is ultimately what provided 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.400 the basis for human civilization and allowed it to grow 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.640 knowing that there was such a thing as revenge that 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.120 humans were capable. 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:21.000 A bit totally. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.000 So kind of put a pin in that for a second, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.000 because we should talk about this idea of like sweet revenge. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.560 That's a that's a word that's often associated with revenge. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.680 And you talked about the fantasy of revenge, and it's 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.760 it's you know, it's a fantasy because for very good reasons, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:45.480 if you are physically hurt, obviously or emotionally or psychologically 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.400 wounded by somebody you, it's a natural instinct to think 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.920 about getting back at that person, right, and the feelings 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.880 that come with that take place. And a part of 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.000 the brain called the dorsal striatum, and it's the same 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.960 aim part of the brain that controls the reward system 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:08.120 of like, hey, that pecan pie tastes great, that sexual 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:13.040 orgasm feels amazing, or the drug that really want. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:13.760 To take feels good. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.400 It's that same lizard brain pathway that revenge lights up, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.120 that lights up whenever you do anything that feels rewarding 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:23.680 or satisfying for somebody. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.679 Yeah, it's extraordinarily powerful and hard to deny and overcome 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.040 because it's just such a basic response. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:31.199 Right, totally. 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.520 But again, the problem, and this is where the tension arises. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.559 We have evolved to a way where we've created these 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.520 societies with rules and expectations that in part say like, 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.400 you can't carry out revenge. It's not okay. And you 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.040 know that that's not okay as a modern human living 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.480 in modern human society. And yet we have that part 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.840 of our brain, that really powerful, basic part of our brain, 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.600 telling us to do it, and we know we're not 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.360 supposed to. And that's kind of like the point in 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.400 human evolution that we live in right now. 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.720 That's right, Should we take a break? Sure? 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.839 All right, that sounds like a good stopping point. So 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.880 we'll take a break and we'll come back and we'll 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.559 hit on the thing that you brought up earlier about 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.360 the fact that actually getting that revenge may not be 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:42.480 so sweet. Stop. 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.400 So, Chuck, one of the things about revenge that makes 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.720 it different from the drug that you were talking about, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.000 or the orgasm or whatever, is that when you think 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.679 of it, it's more fulfilling than when you actually do it. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.880 So like if you think about a drug, might it 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.600 might be pleasurable, but it's probably nothing compared to what 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.439 the drugs doing in your brain when you actually take it, right, 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.560 It's not true with revenge. Not only is the thought 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:16.040 a fantasy of revenge more fulfilling and will hit that 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.040 limbic system harder when you actually do carry out an 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.560 active revenge, it actually creates negative feelings in you as well. 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.080 Yeah, which is interesting because like, how can an idea 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.560 of something? How can a fantasy of something trigger the 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.440 same cascades of the other pleasurable things in their life 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.000 that you're actually doing, And when you think about it, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:42.040 it actually does make sense because revenge, actually taking revenge 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:47.000 is risky. Thinking about revenge fantasies, Sizing about revenge is 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.720 not risky per se. I mean it could be dangerous 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.400 for you know, negative for a person perhaps eventually if 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.200 you like you've become obsessed with it, but initially it's 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.240 a feel good feeling, but carrying through on it can 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.320 be risky. If you go to if you're the hunter 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.920 gatherer group and someone invade your group and steals your meat. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.520 You could go you could just sit there and think 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.280 about how great it would be to get them back, 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.640 and that's probably the safest move. Or you could actually 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.080 go to that other camp and try and kill that person. 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.200 But you're taking a big risk at that point. 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.080 You individually are that's right, but you're doing it on 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.320 behalf of the group or the group benefits whether you're 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:25.600 doing it on their behalf or not. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:26.600 That's right. 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.600 If you didn't do anything, though, that group, not just you, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.280 but the group you're a member of, would seem weak 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:39.320 to other groups. Yeah, and it's it sounds really like 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.280 kind of chromagnet or something like that, But that's it. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.920 It's important. You can't have like I was saying before, 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.280 you can't have society without the knowledge that if you 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.400 transgress there will be consequences for it. I saw, I 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.440 saw it put. There's a neurologist and psychologist named Jeff 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.480 viktor Off. He said that reciprocal altruism, which is how 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:10.000 people cooperate between groups and within groups, that it rewards 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.800 and requires a costly signal demonstrating risk taking on behalf 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.160 of the in group. So for people to be able 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.440 to trade with one another. For people to be able 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.680 to get along in a society and not kill each 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.320 other or whatever, you have to know that there's a 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.760 threat to you if you transgress. It has to be 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.560 there or else people will inevitably invariably cheat or kill 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.960 you or do whatever. And it's a really basic, paranoid 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.840 way of looking at the world. But if you start 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:44.000 to study revenge, it seems like it's a lynchpin of society, 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.560 as it states that there's just you can't have a 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:52.520 society animal or human without that that threat hanging over 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:53.360 you of revenge. 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:54.680 Yeah, totally. Yeah. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.760 I got another quote, and this is the idea kind 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.800 of supports the idea that the revenge itself isn't you know, 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.560 it's risky and it could be bad for you. It's 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.199 really the idea of it that's that's better or at 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.560 least better for the individual. This from Francis Bacon. A 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.120 man that studieth revenge keeps his own wounds green, which 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.280 otherwise would heal and do well. And that's sort of 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.840 the thing that you know, has come up over and 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.160 over again and studies that we're going to be talking about, 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.400 is that the you know, the path of the Buddha. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.159 The getting over things and not seeking revenge is really 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:39.880 the path that ultimately will bring someone what satisfaction? Tranquility, yeah, tranquility, 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.760 Maybe not satisfaction, actually yeah. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.800 I think it's getting past the need for satisfaction that 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.320 will lead you to the point that you really want 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.199 to get to, which is feeling good again, but like 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.800 you felt before you were wronged. Right. The thing is 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.960 is with no wronged. The thing is is with with 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:02.120 revenge what again? What you have is an innate, automatic 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.840 impulse to smash the other person in the face to 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.560 get back at them for them insulting you or your 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:13.359 family or your favorite football team or whatever. It's a 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.359 really basic instinct that if you can learn to overcome, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.959 not just you as an individual can evolve, we as 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.800 a society can evolve. The thing is is you still 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:30.080 need that for just to keep society going and functioning. 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.280 What we've figured out as further evolved humans that we 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:41.000 can externalize that revenge instinct and imbue our institutions with that, 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:46.040 where we've created court systems and justice systems. They're responsible 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.520 for carrying out acts of vengeance or retribution or righting 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.679 wrongs in serving justice on behalf of the individuals of 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.359 society and as society for society as a whole, so 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.119 that we don't have to care acts of revenge on 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.919 one another. And in fact, we have rules now that 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.040 if you do carry out an act of revenge, you 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.720 can be punished by those same institutions that are there 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.320 to enact vengeance on your behalf. 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.880 Yeah, because what happened is, you know, we went from 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.159 the hunter gatherers, where you literally had to do this 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.880 for your group to survive, to eventually settling down. Once 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:26.040 we became farmers and settlers and eventually urbanites, and those 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.480 became Those same instincts were there, but they became moral codes, 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.000 and all of a sudden, you know, we had these 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.200 moral codes like you don't cheat on your friend's wife 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.879 and stuff like that, and you know that's not punishable 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.000 by death, but that revenge instinct is still there to 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.560 overcome these moral codes. There was a psychologist named Herbert 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.760 Herbert Gentis that talked about revenge seeking his moral behavior. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.240 Individual secrivenge not when they've been hurt, but when they've 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.560 been morally wronged. I would also argue, you know, some 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.920 people's secrevenge when they literally they have been physically hurt 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.960 as well, right, But it's also a morally wronging that 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.119 happens if someone you know, jumps you and beats you 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:08.800 up at a football game or something. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.240 And that's actually that's attention that philosophers been trying to 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.239 figure out for a while. John Stuart Mill was a 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:19.919 fan of the deterrent explanation of revenge or punishment or 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.720 whatever you want to call it, and he was saying, like, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.640 like with the animal Kingdom, when you you punish the transgressor, 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.280 you're you're deterring future behavior by making an example of them. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:36.800 Emmanuel Kant said, no revenge exists because when somebody transgresses, 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.040 you're against a person, you're being morally wronged, and just 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:48.400 remove everything else. Morally speaking, that person deserves to be punished. 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:50.960 And he put it in a really kind of alarming way. 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.679 But philosophers always operate on the fringes anyway to make 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:54.280 their points. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:54.960 Right. 0:20:55.040 --> 0:21:02.800 He was saying that a genuinely I guess, a legitimate society, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.240 even if it was disbanding, it was in the act 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:10.879 of disbanding that they were they they were required to 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.000 go in and kill all of the remaining prisoners, all 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:17.240 the all the murderers, like, go execute the rest of 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:21.360 the murderers. Just because your society's disbanding makes no excuse 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.399 whatsoever for the people that you've imprisoned that transgressed against 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.199 the society, because they committed a moral wrong that is 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.840 larger and more important than any any individual or even 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.760 any society, and that they deserve to be punished in that. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.640 That's the function of revenge, according to Khan. Oh interesting, Yeah, 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.360 it's kind of a kind of vengeance. 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.280 kN was he was serious, man, Yeah, he came back 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.199 double you mentioned earlier. You know, we have systems set up, 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.159 you know, court systems, police forces, things like that these days. 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:57.639 But it's interesting that they found that historically these places 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.000 in the world where the culture were what you would 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.480 call like a culture of honor, were more prone to, 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.040 you know, commit acts of violence as revenge. Like the 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.879 American South was historically known as a culture of honor, 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.119 where you would go out and defend the honor or 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.160 fight somebody or have a shootout with somebody. 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.280 I saw specifically, that's white Southern culture. That patterns of 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:25.720 African American retribution or crimes like that don't really vary geographically. 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.879 That's the white American South is the one that does that. 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:30.520 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:32.480 I mean, I think that's what they're talking about as 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.919 sort of you know, pre Antebellum and stuff like that. 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:38.120 Culture. 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.880 Middle Eastern cultures historically can kind of be the same 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.600 way as far as revenge goes restoring honor, and they 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.120 found and this is what gets really interesting is that 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.560 cultures and areas that have a history of weak law 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:57.560 enforcement maybe engage in revenge more often. When you hear 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:01.560 about like street justice, you might think of a low 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.720 income community that maybe mistrust the system, they don't think 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:06.600 the courts or the police are on their side to 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.119 begin with or would take care of them. So that's 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.200 where you're going to see more sort of street justice 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:12.440 revenge carried out right. 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:17.920 And then same with workplace environments and schools. Apparently three 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:21.959 and five school shootings from nineteen seventy four to twenty 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.879 twenty were acts of vengeance revenge. I'm surprised it was 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:31.000 actually that low of a ratio. And then if you 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.600