Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three, twenty four,
Speaker 1: Episode two of Dally's Dice Yeah Seductive production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: This is the podcast will we taking deep dive into
Speaker 1: America's share consciousness America. It's Tuesday, February sixth, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, this is this is one of the furthest
Speaker 1: we've recorded in advance.
Speaker 2: Well, guess what you know what it is? Shout out
Speaker 2: to all my chopsticks users because it's National Chopsticks Day.
Speaker 2: It's Safer Internet Day in the US. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: what that means. It's National fro Yo Day and uh yeah,
Speaker 2: that's it.
Speaker 1: Look at you still out here.
Speaker 2: Royo ever had fro yo with chopsticks?
Speaker 1: That's what waited all I do on this day to celebrate.
Speaker 2: It's an act and speed eating because once that ship melts,
Speaker 2: it's you can't do anything with the chopsticks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe you could, like you know how cat's tongue
Speaker 1: can like kind of scoop it, like right, basically defy gravity.
Speaker 1: Maybe with the right kind of speed and movement of
Speaker 1: the chop sticks, you could like made it kind of flowing.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, or do like the way dogs drink,
Speaker 2: you know, by crowing their tongue backwards to scoop the
Speaker 2: water in their mouth. Have you seen that video?
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that's what I was thinking of it.
Speaker 1: I just have trouble of telling Captain dogs apart.
Speaker 2: Well, just what you have to cut that lingual frenulum,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because you can really black
Speaker 2: that water up like a canine.
Speaker 1: Well, my name is Jack O'Brien aka peas my Jackie
Speaker 1: Pie pacey white ass about ten miles wide. Looks so
Speaker 1: good with those grown man thighs, sweet Jackie Pie.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Courtesy of Macaroni on the Discord Man, ask a guy
Speaker 1: out before you sing, write a song about his sweet
Speaker 1: sweet dump truck ass like that, Lacaroni, Damn are we dating?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: Thank you for that as always, and I'm thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined as all. Buy my co host mister Miles.
Speaker 2: Gray and me Tiny Drag Djay on it on the Highway.
Speaker 1: Wow. When I laid down sheets on dream and I
Speaker 1: had to I guess the again with Shane.
Speaker 2: Okay, shout out Christy Yamaguchi, Maine, reflecting my dreams seemless,
Speaker 2: they still happen. They still happen.
Speaker 1: I no longer know the lyrics to Tiny Dancer. Entertain
Speaker 1: that those are the lyrics to Tiny Dancer. Now, well,
Speaker 1: get Christy.
Speaker 2: We missed you. We miss you, Yamagucci mane let us like,
Speaker 2: come on, man let me ks. I know you're busy.
Speaker 1: I miss Yamagucci.
Speaker 2: May Yeah, I missed the.
Speaker 1: All right, well, Miles. We're thrilled to be joined in
Speaker 1: our third seat by a digital research analyst at the
Speaker 1: Institute for Strategic Dialogue, where she researches online hate, extremism,
Speaker 1: disinformation in the US. It's being world.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for welcome. Oh, thank you for stopping by,
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here on our silly show. Yeah,
Speaker 2: to talk about serious things because it's a big year
Speaker 2: ahead in twenty twenty four. From what I hear what
Speaker 2: I'm hearing, it sounds like people.
Speaker 1: Keep saying that, and I'm like, what, like, why, what's
Speaker 1: so big?
Speaker 2: What's going on? Is it because of the super Bowl?
Speaker 2: Because a Super Bowl every year?
Speaker 4: I was I was already involved in politics in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty and that was probably one of the most strustful
Speaker 4: years of my life.
Speaker 5: Hands down, it was non stop.
Speaker 4: I think I had like four or five just straight
Speaker 4: like seven day weeks in the office till one two
Speaker 4: in the morning, ordering food, getting rashes from the stress.
Speaker 5: It was just awful. I can't going to be it was.
Speaker 4: It was mostly just all the prep work, all of
Speaker 4: the like because I'm researched extremism vaguely then, and it
Speaker 4: was like getting all of the seed lists to get
Speaker 4: all to get in all the groups, to get all
Speaker 4: the discord chats to kind of make the way so
Speaker 4: when things kind of popped off, yeah, but things popped
Speaker 4: off then, like I.
Speaker 1: Was in it, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 2: I'm always amazed at, like, you know, people like you
Speaker 2: and your colleague Jared Holt, who we've had on the
Speaker 2: show many times and he was like you got to
Speaker 2: talk to Sab and he got under Like of course
Speaker 2: then if you say, Joe, like, we love the work
Speaker 2: you do. But I'm always amazed at like how people
Speaker 2: get into monitoring extremism, Like what how what was your
Speaker 2: journey there? Like what were you doing Like I know
Speaker 2: you said twenty twenties when you start to getting into it,
Speaker 2: what were you doing in like twenty eighteen, Like was
Speaker 2: things very different or what was your sort of path
Speaker 2: into this kind.
Speaker 4: Of work really funny. I actually started doing this as
Speaker 4: a joke. I was in college in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4: I was in anthropology major. I recently switched and in
Speaker 4: Cells were like the big laughing stock punching back to
Speaker 4: the Internet at the time. I think Contra Points had
Speaker 4: her video on in Cells and I was like obsessed
Speaker 4: with it, and so from my thesis, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 4: how about what if I did like a funny ethnography
Speaker 4: on like the inner lives of in cells, like as
Speaker 4: a goof for my the It doesn't matter, I'm already
Speaker 4: gonna graduate. I did it, and then I That was
Speaker 4: December twenty nineteen, and then I looked for just in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty January and I got picked up by GQR,
Speaker 4: which is like a polling consortium, and they were looking
Speaker 4: for researchers who already knew about that kind of under
Speaker 4: CD underbelly of the Internet stuff. And I got picked
Speaker 4: up immediately after that and then worked for the whole
Speaker 4: election season and I ended up becoming my career path
Speaker 4: fully on accident.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and are you embracing that? I know you say
Speaker 2: like it's on accident, but I mean, like it. I
Speaker 2: fell in love with.
Speaker 4: The field and the people are really great, and it
Speaker 4: just ended up being a really good mix for me.
Speaker 1: Right, something tells me you're a pretty good student when
Speaker 1: you do a thesis as a goof and get away
Speaker 1: with it. I'm like, damn, this is really fucking good
Speaker 1: and killed that thesis. Maybe you want to do this
Speaker 1: for a living him? Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Well, we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk to you in a in a moment about
Speaker 1: the upcoming election. That's why people Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2: It makes sense.
Speaker 1: There's an election coming up. That's I get it right, right,
Speaker 1: ye ye, we'll talk about that how election denihalism is
Speaker 1: still a thing, whether or not another January sixth is imminent.
Speaker 1: But before we get into it, we do like to
Speaker 1: get to know our guests a little bit better by
Speaker 1: asking them what is something from your search history SA
Speaker 1: being that is revealing about who you are or what
Speaker 1: you're up to.
Speaker 4: Hmm, that's a great question. I actually I went on
Speaker 4: a major deep dive. There was a recent video that
Speaker 4: came out, I think from Jacob Galler about the Pinocchio
Speaker 4: stories and history of Pinocchio. So I've been watching a
Speaker 4: bunch of movies about Pinocchio specifically, and like interpretations through
Speaker 4: different directors and artists. And so I have been like
Speaker 4: weirdly upset with with all the kind of like mannikinny
Speaker 4: I guess existential savements about life and death and everything.
Speaker 4: And I've been like going through video essay like rabbit
Speaker 4: holes about that for at least three or four days.
Speaker 1: Now, Oh, tell me tell me more, Like, so, what
Speaker 1: is an overall thesis that like first captured you on
Speaker 1: on the subject of Pinocchio, Like, what there's more to
Speaker 1: it than meets the eye?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's the fact that like it. I
Speaker 4: think I think there's a quote that he says where
Speaker 4: it's like we cannot fathom a world without the sense
Speaker 4: of the Pinocchio story, Like we can't imagine it anymore
Speaker 4: because it the wooden Boy, because he ends up being
Speaker 4: like a kind of vessel of all human sins or
Speaker 4: like human misbehavior, and the whole morality tale is like
Speaker 4: how to be not only a good person, but a
Speaker 4: person you have to like fully understand him to fully
Speaker 4: understand how to be human being.
Speaker 5: It's really really interesting.
Speaker 2: Wow, So what about Jim and Eye Cricket? Though?
Speaker 5: I think he's just cute and fun.
Speaker 2: Okay, I was like, is there a deeper thing? I
Speaker 2: just love Jimminy Cricket. No, Jimmy Crickett Satan, you didn't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's like, come on, he's there tempted.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the new camera Germo del Toro Pinocchio. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even motherfucker dies and like goes to Hell or like spoilers,
Speaker 1: I guess why. Like an existentially dense text, it's pretty
Speaker 1: it's pretty wild, Like, I mean, there are multiple children
Speaker 1: deaths within the first half of the film, and.
Speaker 2: Are they all going to at double hockey Sticks? I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess he doesn't go to and you know what.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I watched it on a plane that
Speaker 1: landed right when he got to Hell. So I haven't
Speaker 1: completed the film. Okay, Okay, that's right, So I don't
Speaker 1: know where exactly it goes. But the whole thing it's
Speaker 1: funny because I've been obsessed with death a little bit lately,
Speaker 1: and just how much of everything is just has the
Speaker 1: preoccupation with our own mortality and impermanence at its heart
Speaker 1: is kind of wild. Like the second you start thinking
Speaker 1: about something, you're like, oh yeah, that's about death, and
Speaker 1: that's about death, and oh yeah, that's also about death.
Speaker 1: But Pinocchio. Pinocchio is a big one. You know. It's
Speaker 1: one of the questions. Like, that's a movie that my
Speaker 1: kids kind of we tried to start watching it. They're
Speaker 1: five and seven. They were like, yeah, kind of over it.
Speaker 1: But I think if they had stuck with it, they
Speaker 1: would have been compelled because they have a lot of
Speaker 1: questions about death at that at that age, you know,
Speaker 1: five and seven, Like, yeah, Disney was onto something like
Speaker 1: that when you're like, wait a second.
Speaker 2: Do they did? They ask a question? Will I die?
Speaker 1: Will you? Milen?
Speaker 2: No, No, like they asked, well, well, oh my Miles
Speaker 2: he gonna die.
Speaker 1: Miles won't die. Will I don't know, maybe I remember that.
Speaker 2: I remember like when I had that realization. I asked
Speaker 2: my mom. I was like will I Like will I?
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, you're gonna die. I'm gonna die, Yeah,
Speaker 2: Grandma's gonna die. And I was like, fucked me up
Speaker 2: so bad. But that was just sort of that like
Speaker 2: brute brutal honesty that only an Asian mom can give
Speaker 2: you at that time, just straight to the face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a tough one. I remember, yeah,
Speaker 1: being awake in my bed when I was like seven
Speaker 1: and just being like I can't I can't like conceptualize
Speaker 1: because I grew up Catholic and I was just like eternity,
Speaker 1: like doesn't really make sense because everything else is like finite.
Speaker 1: And I was like up crying, and my mom was like,
Speaker 1: in retrospect, I feel so bad for her, just like
Speaker 1: I don't fucking know.
Speaker 2: Man, Like, yeah, we gotta stop going to mask was
Speaker 2: gonna go to you?
Speaker 1: I can't go for wherever?
Speaker 2: Sabine, did you have a moment of clarity like that
Speaker 2: where you got in touch with your own mortality as
Speaker 2: a child.
Speaker 4: I know when I was really little, kind of towards
Speaker 4: when I was like until ten eleven, I was terrified
Speaker 4: of almost everything, like pathologically afraid of most things. And
Speaker 4: I think for Halloween one year, my mom got me
Speaker 4: a book about bones and how bones work, and there's
Speaker 4: an image in the middle of it where it's like
Speaker 4: a human flesh sack, like completely lived with no bones
Speaker 4: in it, and it was like this how.
Speaker 5: You would be if you didn't have any bones in you?
Speaker 5: Did you know?
Speaker 4: And that freaked me out so much that I essentially
Speaker 4: decided to become a skeleton for Halloween. But it ended
Speaker 4: up kind of turning, I think because it was like
Speaker 4: a I got to be learned something new, and also
Speaker 4: like I could see that the inherent horror of being
Speaker 4: alive isn't is sometimes worse than just being dead. And
Speaker 4: so now I have a really strong love of horror
Speaker 4: and love of like gothic like themes and like works
Speaker 4: because I now like knowing how your body can be
Speaker 4: when you're still alive, but it sucks majorly, is like
Speaker 4: that does not bore. Having no bones just seem so bad, right.
Speaker 2: It's also just like yeah, I mean, like I think
Speaker 2: in Western culture there's just like that sort of the
Speaker 2: sort of baseline is being like Mandeth. It is like
Speaker 2: so fucked up, like oh my god, I don't want to,
Speaker 2: don't want to, don't want it, whereas like culturally in
Speaker 2: many other places it's like, yeah, that's bring it on,
Speaker 2: like it happens and that's just part of what it is.
Speaker 2: That's kind of the deal, and use that to sort
Speaker 2: of motivate you to really enjoy or do as much
Speaker 2: good as you can. Well, the party's still rocking.
Speaker 1: I mean the whole capitalist system I think, at least
Speaker 1: partially is fueled by an inherent inability to deal with
Speaker 1: our own mortality and like, so it's like fueled by
Speaker 1: people trying to outrun death basically, which is impossible to outrun.
Speaker 1: So it's like one of the great fuel sources that
Speaker 1: you can come up with, like create a system of
Speaker 1: beliefs and that like thoroughly like doesn't tangle with death.
Speaker 1: And then people are going to just be going as
Speaker 1: hard as they possibly can towards like trying to consume
Speaker 1: and acquire their way out of like thinking about it.
Speaker 2: I mean when I look at Congress, I don't see
Speaker 2: that at all at all.
Speaker 1: Now they're killing it. No, not at all, quite literally
Speaker 1: killing it. Sabin, What is something that you think is overrated?
Speaker 4: I feel like so I originally went to school for
Speaker 4: zoology and I end up having to switch later. I
Speaker 4: think people whose favorite animals is a mammal is any mammal.
Speaker 4: I'm like, mammals are super overrated as a favorite animal.
Speaker 4: The lions, the giraffe, the hippos. I am an insect.
Speaker 4: Girly love love worms. I love polycute worms. They are
Speaker 4: in the bottom of the ocean. I feel like a
Speaker 4: lot of animals most animals aren't mammals, so I feel
Speaker 4: like they don't ever get enough lover appreciation. Mammals are
Speaker 4: always the face of every conservation campaign, every save the
Speaker 4: environment campaign.
Speaker 5: I am her slily tired of it.
Speaker 2: Mm wow men. And now I'm like, now I'm like
Speaker 2: actually challenging myself to be like, what would my favorite
Speaker 2: like non mammal life form be? And the first thing
Speaker 2: I thought of was like a trilla byte.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Why that was like in my mind, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think with a trilla good answer. Good answer.
Speaker 1: We just had the family feud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, trilla byte. They're like, no, nobody's trilobite is not
Speaker 2: on the board.
Speaker 1: Wait, now I have to look up trilla bite. I
Speaker 1: think I know what it is.
Speaker 5: It's a fossil.
Speaker 4: It's it's now extinct, almost like an isopod.
Speaker 2: Yeapods are Yeah, I've always been into them.
Speaker 1: When you bring the ones that exist now, the like
Speaker 1: giant sea bottom roly Polley's uh, which I think is
Speaker 1: the scientific name. Yeah, I know you went for that.
Speaker 1: That is the technical term. The ones look like really
Speaker 1: polyis but like when you take them up and they're
Speaker 1: like not in the pressure at the pressure of the
Speaker 1: bottom of the ocean, they just like blow up and
Speaker 1: they're so scary. That's a great answer. That's one of
Speaker 1: the wildest animals that I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: Jack, what's your favorite non mammal animal?
Speaker 1: I mean, probably the great white shark.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I should have known, Yeah, shock, no.
Speaker 1: One, but I've just been you know, ever since shows. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I like whales a lot because of how like
Speaker 1: they're technically mammals but so different from humans that like
Speaker 1: they give us a weird look at like how how
Speaker 1: different things could have gone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they used to be wolves. Straight up, they were
Speaker 5: wolves and they evolved back into being aquatic. It's crazy,
Speaker 5: what Yeah they used to be. They're like the like
Speaker 5: if you look it up, it's like an.
Speaker 4: Evolution arre where it's like, yeah, the you know, animal
Speaker 4: leaves the water, goes to land, becomes like mammal and
Speaker 4: that's this weird wolf like kind of striped creature and
Speaker 4: that kind of ends up being like a primarily a
Speaker 4: quad hunter and would go back and hunt so often
Speaker 4: and just living there permanently, which is why it has
Speaker 4: all the same like it has like like whales have
Speaker 4: wrists and like fingers inside their fins because they used
Speaker 4: to be war.
Speaker 2: Right, because they had right right right. That's oh shit.
Speaker 2: I never even thought about that because whenever you see
Speaker 2: like a whale skeleton, you're like, why I got them
Speaker 2: little digits under the right, what you're doing too much, whale?
Speaker 2: But now I'm realizing it's this is wild to look at, jack,
Speaker 2: just this whole evolution of cetace.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the top that the carnival they used to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Yeah they started out like muskrats and then
Speaker 1: they just went into the ocean and wow, that's pretty wild.
Speaker 2: So being you're fucking killing it right now, fucking me up,
Speaker 2: fucking up my Christmas right now.
Speaker 1: And I love it there when you look at like
Speaker 1: a batswing and you see that it's just a hand
Speaker 1: like spread out super far, and like the whole thing
Speaker 1: is like the little skin in between your fingers, but
Speaker 1: just like stretched out super far. That always fucks me up.
Speaker 2: A No, that's a hand right there. Man's just a
Speaker 2: big hand. Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be some sicket hoops? What is uh?
Speaker 1: What's something you think is underrated?
Speaker 4: I know if you guys are on like book talk
Speaker 4: or whatever, like people will go on TikTok and recommend
Speaker 4: different books. I feel like there are so many classic
Speaker 4: novels that, even though their classics are underrated, Like I
Speaker 4: recently read Rebecca for the very first time. It's like
Speaker 4: the nineteen thirties. It's about a woman who like remarries
Speaker 4: a guy whose ex wife is dead and she has
Speaker 4: to like live in her shadow. It's a crazy good book.
Speaker 4: I've never heard anyone in my life ever talk about it,
Speaker 4: and I'm honor role of like reading classics that aren't
Speaker 4: like the ones you have to read for school. They're
Speaker 4: kind of just like out in the ether and they're
Speaker 4: genuinely mine, like like changing and fantastic, But because they're old,
Speaker 4: they aren't like recommended unless you got very specific like
Speaker 4: esthetic old timey vintage book talk circles like then they are,
Speaker 4: but I feel like they don't get enough love even
Speaker 4: though they are technically classics, like I don't. Like I'm
Speaker 4: currently reading Left Heard of Darkness Let's Hand of Darkness
Speaker 4: by Ursula Kyle Gwynn. Never heard anybody else who has
Speaker 4: read it or talked about it before. It's like so
Speaker 4: far an amazing book and like no one's I'm like,
Speaker 4: I want them to talk about this one because it
Speaker 4: feels awful to read amazing pieces of work. And there's
Speaker 4: like two video essays on the entirety of YouTube about it.
Speaker 5: It's like no endeavor investigated.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm I've never read the book Rebecca. I didn't
Speaker 1: even know there was a book Rebecca, but I am
Speaker 1: familiar with the text because I'm an Army Hammer completist.
Speaker 1: And he starred in the twenty twenty film Oh okay,
Speaker 1: there's a Hitchcock film based on it, I believe.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they'd a Hitchcock film.
Speaker 4: And then there's a TV movie which I prefer, I
Speaker 4: think the BBC TV movie.
Speaker 5: It has what the dad Lanister from Game of Thrones,
Speaker 5: Max the Winter, the main the husband.
Speaker 2: In the story we call we just call him Tie
Speaker 2: taiwind Lanister. I guess people know him as Charles Dance
Speaker 2: see or Dance or whatever his name is, Charlie Dance
Speaker 2: what I call that man can dance.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not huge on book talk. It's one
Speaker 1: of the few, you know, TikTok sub cultures that I'm
Speaker 1: not fully plugged into. I think I know that like
Speaker 1: Moby Dick is really big on book talk, Is that right?
Speaker 4: I think so it's for me to I know that
Speaker 4: one of the biggest things is a Crown of Roses
Speaker 4: and Thorns.
Speaker 5: Akatar is like the big book top book.
Speaker 4: It's like a really new I think fairy fay romance story.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of romance books are popular on book talk, right.
Speaker 4: There generally is good recommendations on there. We have to
Speaker 4: figure out where, figure out where your niches content was,
Speaker 4: have lists of books through exactly what.
Speaker 5: You're looking for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting too because, like I know people in
Speaker 2: the film industry who like use book talk to try
Speaker 2: and like find new ip that they think is like
Speaker 2: they're like, oh shit, nobody's fucking got the rights to
Speaker 2: this book or whatever. And it's interesting to see because
Speaker 2: people are like bibliophiles and be like, we can't just
Speaker 2: talk about the same eighty books all the time. How
Speaker 2: like how book talk has like actually like to your point,
Speaker 2: like people are now like, oh right, there's there's just
Speaker 2: so much work out there to actually comb through. But yeah,
Speaker 2: having that ability to recommend stuff is I'm sure very helpful.
Speaker 2: And I thought like, is that that like book chain
Speaker 2: thing that I've seen go around? Does that? Did that
Speaker 2: start on book talk where it's like you recommend a
Speaker 2: book and then like you send a person a book
Speaker 2: that you like or some shit? Do you know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about?
Speaker 5: I maybe?
Speaker 4: I honestly, I my I've been trying to cut back
Speaker 4: on social media usage this year, so I'm like, I.
Speaker 5: Honestly don't know.
Speaker 2: But how do you do your job?
Speaker 4: It's literally just for my job, and I try to
Speaker 4: log off and do literally anything else, all.
Speaker 2: Right, I go on nazi telegram channels and then read
Speaker 2: a book. Let's not doing book?
Speaker 5: That's exactly it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so do you go on book talk?
Speaker 1: And then you don't have to read the books? Right?
Speaker 1: You can just like get them to tell you about
Speaker 1: the books.
Speaker 4: It's likely if the book is not that good.
Speaker 5: I do kind of like I'm just on here.
Speaker 4: I kind of get the big plot references from the talk,
Speaker 4: and then log off and I don't thought reading the
Speaker 4: book at all.
Speaker 1: There you go, cool, so amazing, amazing, overrated, underrated, and
Speaker 1: search history A plus Sabine. We are going to take
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we're going to come back
Speaker 1: and talk about what things are looking like on the
Speaker 1: right these days, we'll be right back and we're back.
Speaker 2: We're back.
Speaker 1: By the way, I missed an opportunity to say one
Speaker 1: of my favorite phrases in the English language when you
Speaker 1: were talking about your favorite non mammal animal, so being
Speaker 1: the worms that they go to town whenever there is a
Speaker 1: whale fall, right, aren't they the ones that.
Speaker 5: Those are? Hagfish?
Speaker 1: Hagfish? Okay? Jack Wow, I went out on a limb.
Speaker 1: I got, I got warmed up. I was stretching out
Speaker 1: during the break.
Speaker 3: Get ready flatliale fall drop ship, go with the hagfish
Speaker 3: fumble jack on, Mike, Oh boy, I'm.
Speaker 1: A no, don't edit it out. Justin it's a whale fall.
Speaker 2: Wait, that's when the whale whale dies and then like
Speaker 2: it creates an entire like ecosystem of food.
Speaker 1: For it's just like massive event and like animals come
Speaker 1: from all over.
Speaker 2: They're like what a whale?
Speaker 1: But yeah, watching watching hag fish devour and skeletonize a
Speaker 1: well on the bottom of the ocean. As a Top
Speaker 1: ten things you don't soon forget Top ten reminders that
Speaker 1: we're all like more bro just bone bags waiting to
Speaker 1: get We're all just bone bags waiting to be skeletonized
Speaker 1: by time. Well, on that note, uh, let's talk about
Speaker 1: election denihalism. Still here, folks, Still here. It's definitely hanging
Speaker 1: around more than I would have thought, like as January
Speaker 1: sixth was happening, and then like you know, the day
Speaker 1: went on and people like everyone in the Republican Party
Speaker 1: was like all right, man, like come on, obviously you lost,
Speaker 1: Like this is this is embarrassing, and.
Speaker 2: Yet still here. Yeah, I mean I think there it's
Speaker 2: clearly like the beating heart that is keeping the Maga
Speaker 2: revenge tour alive right now, is like that ill that
Speaker 2: like the election being stolen. And at first this sort
Speaker 2: of like something that was just like more rhetorical. We're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: let's just say like we could say that to kind
Speaker 2: of pump ourselves up, to like motivate ourselves and just
Speaker 2: like something to cry about keep people's heads in the game.
Speaker 2: But this sentiment is just still alive and strong, and
Speaker 2: I'm curious to being in like your research, and I've
Speaker 2: always wondered this, like are there there are there like
Speaker 2: distinct buckets of people within the larger election denialism like
Speaker 2: culture subculture, Like there's like gonna be the people that
Speaker 2: are grifting. They actually don't fucking believe that anything was stolen,
Speaker 2: but they know they could take advantage of people who do.
Speaker 2: Then like true believers and then like casuals like lack
Speaker 2: of a better term, like how would you categorize, like
Speaker 2: what this sort of like election overall election denialism movement
Speaker 2: kind of looks.
Speaker 5: Like absolutely their buckets.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 4: One of the two biggest buckets are people who think
Speaker 4: the election nihilism is real, that like, definitely what's stolen
Speaker 4: and that therefore it's pointless to vote, and people who
Speaker 4: are like election was stolen, but you should still definitely
Speaker 4: show up with the poles please remember, and the two
Speaker 4: fight regularly constantly. Election niners have a lot of infighting,
Speaker 4: particularly about which politicians they deem as legitimate like will
Speaker 4: enact MAGA like policies or who also reinforced election was stolen,
Speaker 4: and people who are like as long as they have
Speaker 4: like pro life stuff, it's fine. Like people tend to
Speaker 4: like kind of where they're giving and what they think
Speaker 4: is okay to like compromise varies wildly.
Speaker 5: Even though they all they all basically believe that the election.
Speaker 2: Was stolen right, because like I'm always curious how much
Speaker 2: in their bones, like they believe these lies, because like
Speaker 2: every court case just got the smack put on it,
Speaker 2: and it's just like, well, there's no you really have
Speaker 2: no evidence aside from the feeling that you just are
Speaker 2: aggrieved and like you know, But then there are people
Speaker 2: that are in like literal tears. They're like this country's
Speaker 2: just going to dog shit and others that are using
Speaker 2: their argument just like I think, just to sort of
Speaker 2: justify their hatred of a democratic administration. So like I'm curious,
Speaker 2: Like it's always interesting to see how that motivates people,
Speaker 2: and like, to your point, we saw that sort of
Speaker 2: denialism backfired a bit in Georgia when Warnock was elected
Speaker 2: at the end of twenty twenty and a lot of
Speaker 2: people were like, I don't know if you could if
Speaker 2: we simultaneous like the election was stolen, but also go
Speaker 2: vote in Georgia to make sure Warnock doesn't get elected
Speaker 2: to the Senate. Like so to your point of the
Speaker 2: people being like, oh, it's it's real. And also but
Speaker 2: they're like, but don't create like a sense of apathy
Speaker 2: and don't like totally black build these people. How are
Speaker 2: like how are these people, Like how are Republicans? Are
Speaker 2: people in the right wing able to like walk that
Speaker 2: line to try not to completely demotivate the base, like
Speaker 2: like how can you not if everything is fucking rigged?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 4: One of the main things I've seen is particularly extremist
Speaker 4: groups like crowdboys, like parents rights people that are on
Speaker 4: the extremist end three per centers. Those people tend to
Speaker 4: they're put up their own or like actively endorsed candidates
Speaker 4: that are very very far right and kind of use
Speaker 4: that as kind of like a carrot where it's like,
Speaker 4: if you do go vote, this person isn't just like
Speaker 4: kind Republican or like even solidly read.
Speaker 5: They're like very extreme to the point where you're extreme.
Speaker 5: And I think I've.
Speaker 4: Seen I've been seeing people essentially feel like for local
Speaker 4: elections and for state elections, like I mean, you're already there,
Speaker 4: so vote for like a president. You're already there, so
Speaker 4: vote for a send that person, But like you're really
Speaker 4: there to vote for these people, for these school board seats,
Speaker 4: for these board supervisor seats that are incredibly far right.
Speaker 4: I feel like local elections definitely ended up being a
Speaker 4: major driver of people within these spaces where it's like
Speaker 4: you get more people who are kind of off the
Speaker 4: deep end and who are very much like I want to.
Speaker 4: I think there is a movement to like ban ranked
Speaker 4: choice voting as an option for voting in the future
Speaker 4: for within states, or like going back and increasing voter
Speaker 4: ID requirements make it so it just state ide isn't
Speaker 4: valid any more. Like there are just a lot of
Speaker 4: people who want to run locally on these kind of platforms,
Speaker 4: and they get into a mass supporting traction. So it
Speaker 4: ends up being like you should support this person. And
Speaker 4: then you're already at the polls, you know.
Speaker 1: Right, do you feel like, first of all, do you
Speaker 1: ever get in there and say, good point, it is
Speaker 1: pointless to vote, y'all should definitely not vote good good
Speaker 1: call guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then but also, like you know, we've seen Trump
Speaker 1: himself over index when compared to his polling. But then
Speaker 1: more recently we've seen the Republican Party perform much worse
Speaker 1: than polling was indicating, leading in or at least on
Speaker 1: the like worst side of the continuum, on the more
Speaker 1: disappointing for them side of the continuum. That like the
Speaker 1: the explanation for that that I've usually heard is just
Speaker 1: you know that people are actually pissed about their bodily
Speaker 1: autonomy going away, and that is a much better motivating
Speaker 1: thing than whatever kind of grievance shit that they have
Speaker 1: going on. But do you think that the people thinking
Speaker 1: that it's pointless to vote actually has an impact on
Speaker 1: that has impacted their electoral kind of underwhelming performances.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean this past election to the twenty twenty
Speaker 4: two midterm election, right, people were trying to really get
Speaker 4: out the vote. Obviously, Arizona was a big focus, and
Speaker 4: then Wisconsin was also really big focused and I was
Speaker 4: in Arizona spaces in Pennsylvania spaces. After the election happened,
Speaker 4: and the people who they're putting up largely did not win,
Speaker 4: people are like, hey, what happened? If you didn't go vote,
Speaker 4: why did you go vote? A lot of people were said, oh,
Speaker 4: I kind of wanted to vote, but like, my kid
Speaker 4: had a soccer game, I was traveling, I was busy,
Speaker 4: And they're like they because it wasn't convenient, they.
Speaker 5: Didn't care enough about it because.
Speaker 4: They were like, the odd up being ringed are so
Speaker 4: high slash, Like, I'm sure it was written in the past,
Speaker 4: and so if it isn't then easy plus with their
Speaker 4: whole I guess devaluing of mail and voting or early
Speaker 4: but people think that also it's like unsafe invaluable, so
Speaker 4: you have to be there in person on election day.
Speaker 4: A lot of people can't be there in personal election
Speaker 4: day or just it would be hard for them to
Speaker 4: like stand in line for three hours after work. And
Speaker 4: so it's like they because they think of it as
Speaker 4: being kind of like a lost cause in the back
Speaker 4: of their minds. Anyway, doing a bunch of extra effort
Speaker 4: to go vote feels like a waste of time, I
Speaker 4: think implicitly it subconsciously, so they're like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 4: don't My kid had to go to the doctor and
Speaker 4: so I was tired after and they didn't go vote,
Speaker 4: and that feels like a valid enough reason for them.
Speaker 2: That is so wild that it's like, honestly, like I
Speaker 2: don't know right now, Like I mean, I know we
Speaker 2: need to take over the nation, but I had to go.
Speaker 2: Like I had to pick up a package at FedEx
Speaker 2: before they closed because I missed it when they delivered
Speaker 2: it the first time. So I just had to sit
Speaker 2: this one out, Like do you do you see, because
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four feels like it feels like they're they're resolute,
Speaker 2: you know, in taking the White House. But how how
Speaker 2: does that square with this simmering like sort of denihalism,
Speaker 2: Like what's the fucking point energy that exists in the right?
Speaker 2: Like how is that? Like? What? What? What do you
Speaker 2: hear from people? Like are they still saying like it's
Speaker 2: important to vote or they're just more like man, we're
Speaker 2: gonna have to fucking take over the capital again or
Speaker 2: some shit, Like what how are they motivating themselves? Because
Speaker 2: obviously the results are going to be born out in
Speaker 2: the voting, But if they aren't doing that, then how
Speaker 2: do they achieve that goal?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean for it's different this year, mostly because Trump
Speaker 4: is now probably going to be on the ballot and
Speaker 4: a lot of these people, if they don't like a
Speaker 4: billion the Republicans a billion of things, they do love
Speaker 4: Trump and so it's like him being their changes the
Speaker 4: gave immediately. And then on top of that, I am
Speaker 4: seeing good enough people, which can very well could be
Speaker 4: all talk also being like willis we have to take
Speaker 4: a step more than voting, either like like convoying or
Speaker 4: doing mass protests or doing another I know that during
Speaker 4: the mid term people doing watching dropboxes with like with guns, right,
Speaker 4: they also kind of starting to get a little bit
Speaker 4: of seam. I think we're there. Probably I can very
Speaker 4: easily see more public protests and like active obstruction of
Speaker 4: election processing local officials because they're like Trump is on
Speaker 4: the ballot, so now you need to vote because they
Speaker 4: can vote Trump back in office.
Speaker 5: People.
Speaker 4: I think that basically everyone in these circles desperately wants
Speaker 4: to have happened. But then to kind of mitigate fraud
Speaker 4: or to mitigate theft to vote, be watch surveillance cameras,
Speaker 4: put your drones in there and stare into the voting
Speaker 4: booth for like all hours of the day to make
Speaker 4: sure that nobody is cheating and no one's like and
Speaker 4: it ends up being like almost like a hyper surveillance
Speaker 4: game where it's like the more eyes we can have
Speaker 4: on every crumb of the voting process, the more secure
Speaker 4: it will be. So like harass people at their jobs
Speaker 4: when they're counting ballots and like that tends to be
Speaker 4: almost like a even if you aren't super red pilled about,
Speaker 4: it ends up kind of being what you what you're
Speaker 4: going to do or what you're I guess encouraged to
Speaker 4: do within these spaces.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm like, it's wild. I think like for
Speaker 2: people that's where like to me, it's like it's just
Speaker 2: like a little it's just kind of shreeks of bullshit too,
Speaker 2: because like when you say, when I saw people like
Speaker 2: in Iowa during the caucuses, a lot of people were
Speaker 2: sharing like those clips of people just like putting scripts
Speaker 2: of paper in a fucking shopping bag to how they
Speaker 2: were voting, and they're like, I'm sorry, I thought y'all
Speaker 2: were all about the selection security, but they're like, well,
Speaker 2: when it's us, we know it's when those other people
Speaker 2: get involved that you can't trust the process at all.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's really sort of kind of interesting to
Speaker 2: think about because yeah, obviously, like with Trump on the ballot,
Speaker 2: that's a huge draw, but then it's also like, yeah,
Speaker 2: how will it how will it even out? Like how
Speaker 2: many people are gonna still maintain like yep, this is
Speaker 2: the way to do it. And then other people who
Speaker 2: are like, ah, I guess, but also watch every like
Speaker 2: you say, every kernel, every little minute step in the
Speaker 2: process to hopefully, I don't know, catch something even though
Speaker 2: they they tried last time, it did not really work
Speaker 2: out that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we talked about last time. Should we talk
Speaker 1: about January sixth, because it does feel a little bit
Speaker 1: like have you ever been in a town this happened?
Speaker 1: Like last time I lived in New York, there was
Speaker 1: a massive blizzard, and then the next time there was
Speaker 1: like any snow in the forecast, there was the great
Speaker 1: like it was called like snowpocalyps and you know, like
Speaker 1: all these It's also like what happened after nine to eleven,
Speaker 1: when the mainstream media made it feel like another equivalent
Speaker 1: terror attack was absolutely imminent. You know, our imagination is
Speaker 1: basically formed by the things that we've recently seen, I
Speaker 1: guess especially in like the mainstream media. So I'm just
Speaker 1: it feels like people are like that that is the
Speaker 1: version of you know, right wing action that people are
Speaker 1: able to imagine. But it seems like some of your
Speaker 1: research has said, like that's probably not exactly it's gonna
Speaker 1: look like now. So I'm just curious to hear your
Speaker 1: thoughts on what we're kind of missing there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean January sixth definitely was a keystone moment.
Speaker 4: I think that one thing that it did show, Like
Speaker 4: what one thing that it did show though, I think
Speaker 4: is that just because the previous for you to trumph
Speaker 4: mental Oby myself's empowered and like they're able to kind
Speaker 4: of get away with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 5: To me that you can get away with literally everything.
Speaker 4: And not of people who were put on the fly
Speaker 4: lists that were then like tried and convicted of crimes,
Speaker 4: especially because in these spaces people either frame danuous sex
Speaker 4: as like a terrible moment when our patriots were like
Speaker 4: tricked and deceive and now are put in its political prisoners,
Speaker 4: or it's completely a false flag by antif for or
Speaker 4: the FBI, And like I think during the January six
Speaker 4: I don't really see it in the forecast because it's
Speaker 4: like now people know that if you go too hard
Speaker 4: into this thing and get kind of too caught up,
Speaker 4: there are are real tangible consequences, and like you can
Speaker 4: be arrested for doing crimes, and that's not something that
Speaker 4: you don't get kind of like free reign to do
Speaker 4: just because you look.
Speaker 5: At Candon a lot, right, And I don't think.
Speaker 4: That was a thing that had been proven on a
Speaker 4: wide scale in these spaces until January six, and now
Speaker 4: even people who do I do the dropouts motterting with guns,
Speaker 4: you know, they are also only two people, not a
Speaker 4: whrde And it's like people who are fully fully convenidentities
Speaker 4: and like make it, schedule it and talk to the police,
Speaker 4: make sure that like the police are okay with them
Speaker 4: being there. It's a lot more of a it's weird
Speaker 4: to say, above door and effort and less like a
Speaker 4: mass you know, going towards do something because it just
Speaker 4: feels right in the moment. And I think people now
Speaker 4: know that that isn't necessarily going to work out. Well
Speaker 4: if you're caught up in the moment.
Speaker 2: Right, do you think, like you know, just thought experiment,
Speaker 2: do you think that the energy is still sort of
Speaker 2: swirling around like that it could like like if all
Speaker 2: the right pieces are place, like could it repeat Like
Speaker 2: if like let's say Biden wins narrowly and it's like
Speaker 2: only down to like two states that were like you know,
Speaker 2: purple but on the red side or something, and somehow
Speaker 2: he's you know, wins whatever state you know, just for
Speaker 2: this hypothetical, and it like hinges on these two things,
Speaker 2: and Trump begins agitating again and saying, like doing sort
Speaker 2: of like running the sort of same script again, will
Speaker 2: they do you think it would? It would there would
Speaker 2: be another attempt, except like more organized or again like
Speaker 2: to your point, too many people are just put off
Speaker 2: because they're like they're like, yo, this is a fucking op, like,
Speaker 2: don't even try it. But also but it feels like
Speaker 2: they're also very motivated to show up in physical space
Speaker 2: and some capacity to sort of like let their displeasure
Speaker 2: be known.
Speaker 4: No, I would much more predict which is like, ow,
Speaker 4: I'm dreading it, much more predict there being two, three, four,
Speaker 4: five people who show up and perage try to do
Speaker 4: something a lhile the Gretchen Whitmer attempted kidnapping, like it's
Speaker 4: like three or four guys as opposed to being people
Speaker 4: who were at January six at this point, Yeah, it
Speaker 4: being an op, it being a setup to be politically
Speaker 4: imprisoned is now a big enough narrative that I would
Speaker 4: personally think that it's going to be. I would see
Speaker 4: more smaller either one person or three or four or
Speaker 4: five people attempts at like trying to go and take
Speaker 4: votes from election offices or like or finding out people
Speaker 4: who were elections people regularly put the names and faces
Speaker 4: of phone numbers of people who are election officials and
Speaker 4: say bother them, call their number, maybe docks them.
Speaker 5: I'm thinking more things that.
Speaker 4: I mean, even swatting people feels like it's probably be
Speaker 4: more more likely of an event to happen than another.
Speaker 2: JASEX right, So it's more that. Yeah, at that point,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh shit, like you can't be that visible
Speaker 2: with a whole group like that. So either we go
Speaker 2: lone wolf for like these tiny groups or just stick
Speaker 2: to digital harassment because that seems like I mean, it's
Speaker 2: happening that like Nikki Haley and judges involved in Trump's
Speaker 2: trials and things and election officials. So yeah, maybe where
Speaker 2: we go one week, go like a few of us
Speaker 2: is kind of more a more accurate revial go on.
Speaker 2: We go in manageable groups. That doesn't cause we get we.
Speaker 1: Clear it ahead of time and we're like, hey guys.
Speaker 2: Just an opsec is I think, Now opsec is, I
Speaker 2: think totally we gotta be we gotta that's the buzzword.
Speaker 2: Now it's all about operational security.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take you a quick break. We'll
Speaker 1: come back. We'll talk about you know what what what
Speaker 1: are some of the potential futures if Biden doesn't win narrowly,
Speaker 1: if Biden doesn't win by a landslide, if Biden doesn't
Speaker 1: win at all, We'll be right back and we're back,
Speaker 1: and there's a whole Atlantic magazine those like if Trump wins.
Speaker 1: But like I didn't see like any of those stories
Speaker 1: like really breaking through were capturing people's imagination. It just
Speaker 1: feels like people are kind of exhausted by him at
Speaker 1: this point, which is something that we talked about, like
Speaker 1: in the very early days of this podcast, like of
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. The idea that you know, the Nazis
Speaker 1: first came to power, they were front page or just
Speaker 1: like when they first existed, rather you know, they were
Speaker 1: front page news, it was in a national scandal and
Speaker 1: international scandal. By the time that they came to power,
Speaker 1: they were people were just like exhausted by it and
Speaker 1: tired of like reading about them and like just people
Speaker 1: you know, it's the Bannon strategy of flooding the zone
Speaker 1: with shit and you just become kind of inert to it.
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like to hear your thoughts generally
Speaker 1: on like what you think a world looks like with
Speaker 1: these groups preparing the way they are and like kind
Speaker 1: of changing their changing how open they are. Like if
Speaker 1: Trump wins, I feel like they become a lot less
Speaker 1: scared of prosecution and like things go in a different direction, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean in my mind that Trump would would
Speaker 4: probably also accompany a bunch of smaller the same election
Speaker 4: wins for Republicans, and I think that that would end up.
Speaker 4: I could see it being almost like you know how
Speaker 4: Twitter was and how Twitter slash x is now, where
Speaker 4: it's like you go online and like I saw beheading
Speaker 4: online in my feed yesterday and it was just like
Speaker 4: that's just around now and that was just part of
Speaker 4: your everyday normal. I could see it being like you
Speaker 4: walk around your city and you see like a white
Speaker 4: price sticker on the stop sign, and that's just like
Speaker 4: part of the landscape of where you live, and it
Speaker 4: being essentially laws are paths that are that are you know,
Speaker 4: regressive and bigoted, and I could see it being like,
Speaker 4: you know, I think I'm thinking more in the sense
Speaker 4: that it would feel just generally unsafe, but then also
Speaker 4: would have the coffee other being like and you would
Speaker 4: feel like, yeah, tired, it's tired and like it's normal,
Speaker 4: and like it sucks, you don't like it, but like
Speaker 4: it's a bunch of title instances that go about your day,
Speaker 4: not one big guy yelling at you or fighting with you.
Speaker 5: What are you gonna do about it?
Speaker 4: And I could see that being like, you know, every
Speaker 4: school board meeting is now some weird right right rings
Speaker 4: screen about how trans kids are ruining everything, and that's
Speaker 4: every school board meeting now, and there's not a lot
Speaker 4: of ways to counteract that or like to make that stop, right.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, cause just we're in an election
Speaker 2: year and it feels like every time shit just gets
Speaker 2: worse and worse, Like the technology gets better for bad
Speaker 2: faith actors, the potential for violence increases. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people will probably hear like, okay, so
Speaker 2: there's not gonna be no j six two point zero
Speaker 2: and probably be like, okay, great, nothing to worry about,
Speaker 2: Like they realize they've been fully dissuaded from trying that
Speaker 2: shit again. No need to be vigilant about anything. But
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, we've had Jared on the
Speaker 2: show too, and we were talking about like white nationalism
Speaker 2: two point zero and the rise of like active clubs
Speaker 2: and things like that. Aside from like sort of those
Speaker 2: groups and how they've sort of just like shifted or
Speaker 2: what however they're going to participate in this upcoming year
Speaker 2: or next few years. What can what do you think
Speaker 2: people can expect to see from these right wing groups
Speaker 2: in terms of what sort of activities they feel like
Speaker 2: they're invested in, in terms of like the build up
Speaker 2: to the election.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I prepare for a lot of ads,
Speaker 4: a lot of very gross discussing ads in your YouTube
Speaker 4: and your Spotify is and your everything. I would also
Speaker 4: say that at least from my perspective, viral content and
Speaker 4: like and like just changes of language. I mean, like
Speaker 4: people use red pill in Selly style language as on
Speaker 4: the regular even if you are in the community. Now
Speaker 4: it's just now part of the language of being online.
Speaker 4: And I think that expecting feeling a weird like right
Speaker 4: wing ideology shift, I mean, like this whole I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm seeing at a lot of trad wife content, a
Speaker 4: lot of a lot of white supremacists, like word usage
Speaker 4: or meme templates. I mean that's only going to get
Speaker 4: more and more frequent. Feeling like everyone in your feetus
Speaker 4: constantly has some weird, disgusting worldview where everyone's out for
Speaker 4: themselves and the outsiders and the freaks are trying to
Speaker 4: ruin your life, and like that's what's going to feel like.
Speaker 4: It's a constant messaging wherever you go, and people are
Speaker 4: very much invested in making it feel like you should
Speaker 4: be scared all the time. The fact that you were
Speaker 4: upset and the things are going well for you is
Speaker 4: somebody else's well that you should specifically blame. And solutions
Speaker 4: that aren't that or more nuanced in depth conversations are
Speaker 4: probably going to feel less like a part of your
Speaker 4: daily conversations.
Speaker 2: So like, right, that's a lot of it is now
Speaker 2: just sort of shifting to what can we create energetically
Speaker 2: as an environment for people to operate in and then
Speaker 2: hopefully that will nudge people in the right direction or
Speaker 2: just this way them from doing anything at all. That's
Speaker 2: some yeah, yeah, so grim, especially now when you look
Speaker 2: at just like the rise of like AI shit and
Speaker 2: the like all this deep fake stuff that's happening that
Speaker 2: can already like i mean, we're already seeing it and
Speaker 2: here little flashes here and there.
Speaker 1: Are you, Yeah, as somebody who's like paying attention to
Speaker 1: misinformation online. You know, we've done a couple episodes about
Speaker 1: AI and you know we're somewhere between. This shit is
Speaker 1: scary too. Also, like the way companies are using it
Speaker 1: is kind of like hamfested and not not that impressive
Speaker 1: at this point, but just generally, like, I know, my
Speaker 1: job has gotten harder when it comes to being able
Speaker 1: to like find reputable information on the Internet. I can
Speaker 1: only imagine what it's like in the trenches, Like as
Speaker 1: you are trying to track trends and things like that,
Speaker 1: are you how much of that is the new technologies
Speaker 1: that are answering how much of that is that the
Speaker 1: companies have completely given up on raining it in at all?
Speaker 1: And just yeah, I'm curious to hear your overall thoughts
Speaker 1: on the state of the union when it comes to
Speaker 1: disinformation online.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean when I was when I was doing work
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, I marveled to my coworkers about like, like, wow,
Speaker 4: people on the right spend so much time doing illustrations
Speaker 4: and making like interesting meme and art to like just
Speaker 4: flood these systems And I would like reverse image search
Speaker 4: constantly because there's always new things being made with AI.
Speaker 4: I feel like that's only getting more frequent and worse
Speaker 4: with disinformation. I mean, when I'm doing what I'm doing
Speaker 4: reports on the daily for my job, I have to
Speaker 4: generally go back and fact jack and see how people
Speaker 4: are saying this what's actually happening and find that information. Now,
Speaker 4: especially if it's a smaller local story that doesn't have
Speaker 4: a bunch of news art news outlets on, it is
Speaker 4: so difficult to like see what they're saying true or not.
Speaker 4: I don't want to just like write them all completely
Speaker 4: as being like everyththday is a lie, and like I
Speaker 4: want to actually do my research. But if there's not
Speaker 4: a local news article about it or someone or like
Speaker 4: a reparatable source like trying to figure out something is
Speaker 4: true that they're saying, I'm like, they're saying it, I
Speaker 4: honestly believe them, but there's nowhere else to look to
Speaker 4: find different information. And I think that's one of the
Speaker 4: bigger issues. I mean, I mean, obviously Twitter has the
Speaker 4: community know this thing, which is you know, biased at best,
Speaker 4: but like having reliable that check, especially for things that
Speaker 4: are more local or on a smaller scale, is like
Speaker 4: you're only getting the right way narrative of any event
Speaker 4: and to find the truth or like the non biased
Speaker 4: thing is just so difficult, and I don't I don't
Speaker 4: know how that's changing how people perceive current events or
Speaker 4: or local events or just like regular takes on everyday life.
Speaker 4: If they're only seeing one side and like even if
Speaker 4: they don't like that person like that opinion, there's no
Speaker 4: other opinion or other side to look at to balance
Speaker 4: it out and define the truth in the middle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think these big social media companies
Speaker 1: gave up so completely? Like it seems like this would
Speaker 1: be a time when you would be able to make
Speaker 1: a name for yourself by being the one place that
Speaker 1: actually tries to fact check. On the other hand, it
Speaker 1: was already an extremely difficult task to fact check all
Speaker 1: the misinformation, and now it's getting more difficult. Is it
Speaker 1: just kind of that combination because we've also talked about
Speaker 1: how most corporate entities have like gone away from doing
Speaker 1: good from that idea being like, you know, it was
Speaker 1: never their main driving impulse, but it was like fashionable
Speaker 1: for a little bit to like have these ESG programs
Speaker 1: and stuff. And now it's like a bad word to
Speaker 1: say that you're investing in those things. Like where do
Speaker 1: you think that kind of giving up came from?
Speaker 4: I think there are like a few things. One of
Speaker 4: the first things I'm thinking is that, like I remember
Speaker 4: when they started to do kind of disinformation countering and
Speaker 4: started to do this efforts, they got a lot of
Speaker 4: pushback from actual Republicans in Congress because they'd be like,
Speaker 4: my statement is getting fact checked and flagged the day
Speaker 4: isn't true. And it's like when you start to objectively
Speaker 4: go about what is true information or not, Hey, a
Speaker 4: real person has to trasically go through every single thing.
Speaker 4: If someone doesn't get a joke, it doesn't understand that
Speaker 4: there's the satire.
Speaker 5: That actisms get caught in the middle of it.
Speaker 4: But then also people who are making inflammatory rhetoric then
Speaker 4: who are elected officials also get caught in that. And
Speaker 4: then it starts looking to Republicans mostly that this platform
Speaker 4: is being biased because it's censoring you Republicans. Now they're really
Speaker 4: bing narrative for a long time with that, social media
Speaker 4: companies are censoring the right because you put something up
Speaker 4: that's like the COVID nineteen vaccine causes autism, and then
Speaker 4: you get flagged and it's like, well, then of course
Speaker 4: you're going to get flagged, But then if that happens
Speaker 4: in a weird biased scaategory, then like you think that
Speaker 4: that's a negative or like it's a targeted harassment campaign
Speaker 4: from the social media company. Also the fact that rage
Speaker 4: clicks make money. People engage with things when it makes
Speaker 4: you mad, and so there's not really a financial benefit
Speaker 4: of having that not be there. And also like, yeah,
Speaker 4: real people have to go through and moderate spaces. I
Speaker 4: spend a lot of time submitting posts for moderation or
Speaker 4: flogging posts for a boarding posts because it's like this
Speaker 4: person missed this, and it's like a lot. I mean,
Speaker 4: especially Twitter slash x they cut down their moderation team
Speaker 4: basically zero, and Facebook already doesn't really have a super
Speaker 4: big one that's always on the clock. So it's like
Speaker 4: you're asking a team of fifteen people to monitor the
Speaker 4: entirety of Facebook.
Speaker 5: That's a really big ass.
Speaker 4: They're going to miss stuff, and so it's like they
Speaker 4: have the company has to invest in hiring your people
Speaker 4: and setting stronger, more specific guidelines and then also adhering
Speaker 4: to those guidelines, even at the person that they're adhering
Speaker 4: to brings no a lot of traffic and money to
Speaker 4: the platform. It's like there's not a ton of upfront incentive.
Speaker 1: So it's the stuff that's always been true. It's just
Speaker 1: again like the public they just got tired of like
Speaker 1: resisting the main impulse of capitalism to be like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: you can do that. It's not profitable and you'll get
Speaker 1: fired for doing it, but yeah, no, go ahead, it's great.
Speaker 1: That looks great on you. After a while, the forces
Speaker 1: just kind of wear you down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Well, then also just how much we've seen
Speaker 2: how much conservatives have just worn even the media down
Speaker 2: to be like, how dare you well fact check the
Speaker 2: words I say? You're trying to silence me, and like
Speaker 2: there's no they're like, fuck man, I don't. We don't
Speaker 2: have the will to push back, or we're not getting
Speaker 2: the directive from the people high up to push back.
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of like, Okay, I guess we'll
Speaker 2: just please appease them, and then you event you end
Speaker 2: up in this sort of place where it's like too
Speaker 2: much of a hassle to follow through on those kinds
Speaker 2: of things, and it's kind of like it's a little
Speaker 2: unsettling Sabine, right, because with everything you're saying, it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, they're they're not the fucking platforms aren't going
Speaker 2: to do anything. They're fucking just doing their own thing,
Speaker 2: putting out their own news. That is going to be
Speaker 2: the first point of contact for a lot of people
Speaker 2: if they're looking at like one of these stories or
Speaker 2: manufactured sort of scandals or whatever it. What is the
Speaker 2: role that normal people can play in sort of countering this,
Speaker 2: Like not to say that like now you need to
Speaker 2: get on your moderation shit and start like hopping in
Speaker 2: these spaces, but like what what is like like what
Speaker 2: are the sort of steps because I feel like all
Speaker 2: the time you hear about like a Project twenty twenty
Speaker 2: five or like these other things are like what what
Speaker 2: the fuck? Like what I mean not that this is
Speaker 2: specifically to that, but you're like, what do what is
Speaker 2: the left doing anything about Project twenty twenty five? Not
Speaker 2: that I can see, But for regular people who are
Speaker 2: witnessing this kind of evolution, I'm sure many people already
Speaker 2: live in areas where they are seeing like white Pride
Speaker 2: stickers or they're getting fucking KKK Nazi shit thrown in
Speaker 2: their driveway and is it block bag filled with rocks
Speaker 2: and stuff like that is what is the response or
Speaker 2: what is the what kind of networks of people or
Speaker 2: can be created or things can be done to sort
Speaker 2: of counter that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so online, particularly because most of my expertise,
Speaker 4: there are always some forms of practice that I think
Speaker 4: I would endorse. I know people are like, hey, well
Speaker 4: you're dunking on someone's screenshot and then do the dumps.
Speaker 4: They don't get the engagement if your tweet goes viral.
Speaker 4: There's also just I guess not encouraging behavior. Maybe if
Speaker 4: we're not dunking at all, if you can help it,
Speaker 4: If you see a tweet or you see a headline,
Speaker 4: take the extra time to see if it's actually true
Speaker 4: before before you share it, before you then again make
Speaker 4: outrage bait. A lot of a lot of particularly right
Speaker 4: accounts make their money and get their influence from being
Speaker 4: inflammatory and like and triggering that like the instant thing
Speaker 4: you to get mess and that you know isn't right
Speaker 4: or that you know isn't true, and like taking the
Speaker 4: time to like step back, think about is it worth
Speaker 4: it to engage? Is it worth it if it really
Speaker 4: is a narrative you want a counter, screenshot it and
Speaker 4: talk about it on your own things so they don't
Speaker 4: get the engagement, or and they make sure you can
Speaker 4: like double check fact check whatever you're sharing, like and
Speaker 4: not just doing an immediate emotional share offline. I would
Speaker 4: say that, at least for me, there are tons of
Speaker 4: people in my community have heard stuff or said stuff,
Speaker 4: or like kids will come home and say anything that
Speaker 4: they've heard at school, and like it all feels in
Speaker 4: the moment like a one off instance of someone being shitty,
Speaker 4: and like it honestly, it can be more than that,
Speaker 4: and it can foster a bi it like that's okay,
Speaker 4: and so like not letting those things slide or let
Speaker 4: lie or have just brushing them off. I know, like
Speaker 4: in my hometown, my parents will walking by your school,
Speaker 4: someoney changed it to say a bunch of slurs and
Speaker 4: like pro Nazi stuff. When everyone was on vacation, we
Speaker 4: took a picture of it, put it in the county
Speaker 4: Facebook group and stea, hey, this isn't cool when you
Speaker 4: talk about this. When we had a conversation about talking
Speaker 4: to your kids, if you have teenagers or anything in
Speaker 4: the area, make sure you're talking about what is there
Speaker 4: is not appropriate to do, and what is this not
Speaker 4: true about minority groups? Des me that you can do
Speaker 4: to kind of like not just let it be a
Speaker 4: shitty thing that you saw and then now have to
Speaker 4: I guess ignore a rush up.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 4: Also, my company I See has a program called Strong
Speaker 4: City's Network where they do deradicalization programming, trainings and classes
Speaker 4: for city officials, for local officials, for community members about
Speaker 4: what you can do to foster an environment where extremism
Speaker 4: doesn't feel welcome or safe in your area. There are
Speaker 4: I think already existing anti hate groups that are either
Speaker 4: national or that could be in your state. I know
Speaker 4: that Virginia where I live, certainly has some, and seeking
Speaker 4: out those groups and participating is also great to feel
Speaker 4: like you're doing something, you're getting involved.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think it's It's also I mean, it's
Speaker 2: kind of a really interesting point where it's like so
Speaker 2: much of the engagement that these inflammatory accounts get is
Speaker 2: purely because of the reaction from people on the other
Speaker 2: end of the spectrum, and it's like sort of like
Speaker 2: it's that easy for them. It's like, dude, all you
Speaker 2: gotta do is just say this and then it blows
Speaker 2: up and its.
Speaker 1: People dunk on you and then their content becomes your content.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, and then it's like sort of like yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean one of the biggest ways to sort of
Speaker 2: like pull the rug out from under them is to also,
Speaker 2: like to your point is like if you're going to
Speaker 2: talk about it, maybe don't share the handle or just
Speaker 2: take the screenshot so that actual individual post isn't getting
Speaker 2: the sort of engagement that they need to feed the algorithms.
Speaker 2: It kind of blows the eyes. It's like, just remember
Speaker 2: a lot of this shit while it is upsetting, it's
Speaker 2: the intent is for you to interact with it, so
Speaker 2: the message goes further and wider. And that's like just
Speaker 2: such a super subtle thing that Yeah, to think about
Speaker 2: how it's like, yeah, it's kind of like a Rube
Speaker 2: Goldberg machine that it's just kind of like, yeah, man,
Speaker 2: I'll get it this one thing and it can do
Speaker 2: next thing. You know, it's setting off all kinds of
Speaker 2: alarm bells.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, Sabine Lawrence, such a pleasure having you on
Speaker 1: the show. Yeah, where can people find you? Follow you
Speaker 1: all that kod stuff.
Speaker 4: I'm on Twitter, slash x my at is on Galliant
Speaker 4: for hire. With the number four as a for hire.
Speaker 4: I can put it in the chat so you can
Speaker 4: put on the screen or anything. And that's the only
Speaker 4: place besides like I I have papers sometimes I dispatch
Speaker 4: it sometimes that are posted to Twitter, to LinkedIn and
Speaker 4: also just on the ISIC website.
Speaker 1: Amazing. And is there a work of media that you've
Speaker 1: been enjoying.
Speaker 4: Yes, I currently have been enjoying a lot of Jack Staubert.
Speaker 4: He's like he was on Adult Swim a lot, and
Speaker 4: he does these really cool clamation and like techno pop
Speaker 4: works and it's my favorite artists.
Speaker 1: Cool, no nice. And we will link off to Sabine's
Speaker 1: Twitter handle in the notes notes Miles, where can people
Speaker 1: find you? Is there a workimedia you've been enjoying?
Speaker 2: Yes, my name does not have a Tolkien reference in
Speaker 2: the handle, but you can find me at the at
Speaker 2: based platforms Miles of Gray, and also find Jack and
Speaker 2: I on our basketball podcast Miles and Jack Got Mad Boosties.
Speaker 2: And if you like a bit of a ninety day Fiance,
Speaker 2: I also talk about that a mile off time that's
Speaker 2: on four to twenty day Fiance. Check that podcast out
Speaker 2: a tweet. It's actually a TikTok because your boy's been
Speaker 2: scrolling and there's this one account at Casey Winnie. This
Speaker 2: woman she's been doing just like these very subtle things,
Speaker 2: like you know, imagine the first person, like the first
Speaker 2: pirate to say are And I think she first started
Speaker 2: going viral because she was doing her own version of
Speaker 2: Jennifer Coolidge going like er like she's like really good
Speaker 2: at that sound. But she's been like doing these just
Speaker 2: these videos, very simple, that's like hypothetical. And this one
Speaker 2: is called imagine the person who first replied after a
Speaker 2: wild crocodile. Even though it is in a wild crocodile.
Speaker 2: A lot of people were in the chat or the
Speaker 2: comments been like it's in a while crocodile.
Speaker 1: Let me just said after a while crocodile.
Speaker 2: Oh I've always had in a while crocodile. I mean
Speaker 2: where you are you in a while or after a
Speaker 2: while in a while? Okay, okay, Well look the country, Uh,
Speaker 2: there's so many more divisions that we even know about,
Speaker 2: you know, so it's good to get these things all
Speaker 2: out there. But this is the clip of it because
Speaker 2: I just love it's just like this reaction of the
Speaker 2: person who's just eating. But please listen to the background chatter,
Speaker 2: because that's what honestly makes the video so hilarious.
Speaker 4: Later, alligator after a while, crocodile waiting, Oh wow, how
Speaker 4: did you come up with that?
Speaker 3: A crocodile and an alligator?
Speaker 5: She's like, what's the square root of sixty four?
Speaker 1: Eight?
Speaker 2: Y'all, that's what the square root of sixty four is
Speaker 2: because it's eight. So anyway, her tiktoks are pretty hilarious.
Speaker 2: So yeah, shout out to that one.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. After a while.
Speaker 2: In a while, wow, you're guys, that's like me thinking
Speaker 2: about my trilobite love, going to that part of my brain.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian.
Speaker 1: I liked a tweet there from Goose that is in
Speaker 1: the genre of lose yourself lyrics. Always like a fake
Speaker 1: lose yourself lyric. So his balls are sweaty, knees weak,
Speaker 1: balls are sweaty. They're sweaty on his sweater or already
Speaker 1: balls are sweaty. Just made me laugh.
Speaker 2: Art art art.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. We're
Speaker 1: at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have Facebook fan
Speaker 1: page and a website, Daily zeitgeist dot com. Where we
Speaker 1: post our episodes and our footnotes. We'll link off to
Speaker 1: the information that we talked about in today's episode, as
Speaker 1: well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles,
Speaker 1: is there a song that you think people might enjoy? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah there is out So a few days ago.
Speaker 2: Last week, I was talking about an Indonesian funk band
Speaker 2: called Aka. But when I was searching for them, I
Speaker 2: found another group called Aka. But if I think it's
Speaker 2: like an African funk band, like a psychedelic African band
Speaker 2: from the seventies, I couldn't find anything else. But this
Speaker 2: is what showed up. This track is called Shake Me
Speaker 2: by AKA, and it's it's just got like it's this
Speaker 2: that afro psychedelic vibe shit from the seventies and it's
Speaker 2: like really good funky horns, stuff like that. And you know,
Speaker 2: leve a live band, So check this one out. This
Speaker 2: is shake Me by AKA.
Speaker 1: We will link up to that in the footnotes. The
Speaker 1: Daily Zeiche is a production of my Heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 1: Apple podcast. Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that
Speaker 1: is gonna do it for us. This morning, we are
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and
Speaker 1: we will talk to you all then.
Speaker 2: Bye bye yeah