1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: On Monday, Donald Trump said his Attorney General Jeff Sessions 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: was beleaguered. Well off Sessions was wasn't beleaguered, then he 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 1: probably is. Now. Reports by the Washington Post and the 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Associated Press say Trump is privately discussing replacing Sessions. This morning, 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Trump tweeted that Sessions has taken a quote very weak 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: position on Hillary Clinton crimes, and Trump's new communications director, 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: Anthony scary Mucci said Trump probably wants Sessions to resign. 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: That's according to conservative commentator Hugh Hewitt, it all apparently 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: stems from Trump's displeasure that Sessions recused himself from the 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: Russia investigation. That step put Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: in charge, and he in turn appointed Special counsel Robert 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: Mueller to run the investigation with us to unravel all 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: this is Steve Lattock. He's a law professor at the 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: University of Texas Law School. Steve, thanks for joining us. UM. So, 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: can can Jeff Sessions possibly stay in this job in 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: the face of all this criticism from the man who 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: appointed him? I mean, I think that's that's a good question, 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: and I think only just Sessions can answer it. You know, 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: I think at this point, what we're seeing is the 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: attorney general basically all but daring the president to fire him. Um, 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: because it seems quite clear, at least for now, that 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: the attorney General has no interest in resign him and 23 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: in making the President's life easy for him. So Trump 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: seems to be goating Sessions into stepping down because the 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: implications if he fires him are many, and I want 26 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: you to talk about them. Is would it be another 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: instance to add to Mueller's list of possible obstruction of justice? Maybe? 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: Although I mean it's hard to see how firing an 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: attorney general who has already refused himself from the investigation 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: you are purportedly trying to obstruct could itself be obstruction? 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: I think the larger problem, and this is a matter 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: of some legal debate. Um, it's possible, depending upon how 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: folks read a very technical statute called the Vacancies Reformat 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: that how Trump can replace Attorney General Sessions, at least 35 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: on an acting basis may depend upon whether Sessions resigns 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: or is fired. There's no question if Sessions resigns that 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: the president would have pretty broad choices when it comes 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: to naming someone an acting attorney general, pending the confirmation 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: of a successor. Guys, it's not as clear if the 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: original is fired that the president would have the same 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: number of choices. So let's let's dive into that a 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: little bit more So, let's take the first possibility that 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: you raised. If if Sessions resigns, you said he's got 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: the president would have pretty broad authority there. Um spell 45 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: that out a little bit for us. And in particular, Um, 46 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, right now the deputy is Rod Rosenstein, who 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: is already the one who has the power to fire 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: Robert Mueller. Why would Rob rod Rosenstein not just step 49 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: into the acting role? Sure? I mean so if the 50 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: president does nothing, then Rod Rosenstein would because under the 51 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: terms of the Department of Justice's own succession Statute and 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: under the terms of President Trump's own executive Order on 53 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: d o J succession, barring some other mechanism, the Deputy 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: Attorney General Rod Rosenstein would become the active Attorney General 55 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: upon the resignation or termination of Jeff Sessions. The problem 56 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: is this creepy you know old statute is not that old. 57 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: The Vacancies Reformact, which allows the president to go around 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: the ordinary line of succession at d o J and 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: allows him to pick, at least out on an acting basis, 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: any individual in the executive branch who holds a what's 61 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: called p AS position presidentially appointed and Senate confirmed position. 62 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: You know, that's a pretty large number of people. Include 63 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: someone like Ben Carson or Betsy DeVos or folks like that, 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: or someone who doesn't hold that kind of job but 65 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: has a sufficiently senior position within the Department of Justice. 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: So for example, acting Solicitor General Jeff wall So you know, 67 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: the question is whether the president would bypass the normal procedure, 68 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: which would put Rod Rosenstein in charge, to pick someone who, 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: at least in the President's view, is more sympathetic to him. Visibly, 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: the Russian investigation might be more willing to fire Special 71 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: Counsel Bob Mueller. If so, it's possible that this statute, 72 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: the Vacancy's Reformact, gives the president a tool for doing 73 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: just that. Steve, it seems the President has in various 74 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: ways express displeasure with Rod Rosenstein. So if he does 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: bypass him, how will that will the next person absolutely 76 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: be able to fire Mueller if Trump wants him to. Yeah, 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean this is you know, guys, this is where 78 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: we start having this sort of differentiate between legal considerations 79 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: and political ones. I mean, I think there's no question 80 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: that someone who succeeds Jeff Sessions as Attorney General or 81 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: even acting Attorney General, and who is not recused from 82 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: the Russian investigation would have the authority to fire Bob Mueller. Now, 83 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, the relevant regulation says that the firing has 84 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: to be for good cause. Um, But I mean, I 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: don't think it's hard to imagine what kind of arguments 86 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: we would hear about why there was cause for firing 87 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: Special Counsel Mueller. I don't think there's a legal objection 88 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: to that process, Guys. I think the question would be 89 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: whether that would be a red line or congressional Republicans 90 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: such that it would be the political price and the 91 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: political consequences of that step that would make it undesirable, 92 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: if not undoable from the White House's perspective. So so far, 93 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the who would serve temporarily to 94 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: succeed Jeff Sessions. I want to ask you about a 95 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: permanent replacement, and in particular, and maybe these fit together, Uh, 96 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: the notion of a recess appointment is that something that 97 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: that Trump might be able to do, uh, to avoid 98 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: having to get Senate confirmation for whoever he might select 99 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: to succeed Sessions. It's a great question. So you know 100 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: the recess appointment clause, it's in Article two. It allows 101 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: the president to fill vacancies when the Senate is in recess. Um. 102 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: If we got to the point where there was a 103 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: valid qualifying recess, yeah, I mean, there would be nothing 104 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: to stop President Trump from naming really just about anybody, 105 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: um to serve as not actually story General, but as 106 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: Attorney General through the end of the quote next unquote 107 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: session of the Senate. Guys that get us all the 108 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: way the January three. So that's a pretty you know, 109 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: big potential step. It's a pretty big scenario. The real 110 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: question is whether the Senate will let it happen. Um. Right, 111 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: So it's not a recess anytime the Senate goes home. Um. 112 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: For it to be a qualifying recess, the Senate would 113 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: have to adjourn for ten days or longer. There are 114 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: a lot of procedural devices and tools that even the 115 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: Manure the Democrats could use to try to prevent that 116 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: from happening. Um. So I think that's clearly the most 117 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: desirable option. From the White House's perspective, It's also one 118 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: that may not actually happen because of you know, the 119 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: sort of the ability of Democrats on the Hill and 120 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: perhaps even some moderate Republicans um to not give President 121 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: Trump that kind of authority. And Steve, let's talk about 122 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: why he wants he might want to avoid a confirmation hearing, because, 123 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: as we heard with the upcoming to be voted on 124 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: FBI director, the question was was there are many questions 125 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: about whether or not he would pledge loyalty, what he 126 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: would do. As far as Mueller, you'd expect those same 127 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: questions from an A G. I mean, I think there's 128 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: no question that the White House would love to avoid 129 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: a confirmation hearing for whoever succeeds Jeff Sessions, because I 130 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: think there's just no doubt at this point that the 131 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee, and indeed the full Senate, would extract 132 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: concessions and promises from any nominee for that position that 133 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: might be inconsistent with the preferences and desires of the 134 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: President um And we saw that with Chris Ray, the 135 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: President's nominee to be FBI director. You know the number 136 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: of times he was asked about what kinds of promises 137 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: he made to the president, and what kinds of you know, 138 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: priorities he would have as FBI director. I mean, that's why, guys, 139 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: the confirmation process is more than just a rubber stand. Um. 140 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: These kinds of promises tend to be politically, if not legally, enforceable, 141 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: and so you know, that's why I think the end 142 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: game for the president here is to try to find 143 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: someone who can serve as Attorney General on either an 144 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: acting or permanent basis, who doesn't have to go through 145 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: the Senate um, and who can be someone who the 146 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: President has more trust in to do the President's bidden 147 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: when it comes. I mean, let's be clear to Russia, 148 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: because on everything else, Jeff Sessions really has been the 149 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: president's guy. Yeah. Yeah, I want to ask you about 150 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of the rest of what Jeff Sessions has been doing. 151 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, certainly Russia's what's driving this decision. Uh, 152 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: but but but what you agree that. I mean, Jeff 153 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: Sessions has been one of the most um has had 154 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: as much of an impact as any other Trump Cabinet official. 155 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: What happens to the rest of everything Jeff Sessions has 156 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: been doing on sanctuary cities, on um on on criminal sentencing. 157 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: Does that all continue a pace even if a session 158 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: steps down. I don't know. I mean I think that 159 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: depends to some degree on whether there are folks, you know, 160 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: lower in the hierarchy at d O J who are 161 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: just as committed to the same agenda. And and this, 162 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: to me is what is so bizarrely fascinating about this story. 163 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean, in every respect except Russia, Jeff Sessions is 164 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: basically the leading man for President Trump's domestic law enforcement 165 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: agenda UM and is doing not just the President's bidding, 166 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: but in some ways, I think an even more aggressive 167 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: version of the President's preferences. And so yeah, it's it's 168 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: sort of amazing still to me that Scaramucci today said 169 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: the president wants his cabinet secretaries to have his back. 170 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: That it's still not coming across that these he's the 171 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: top law enforcement official of the country, he's not, he's 172 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: not his his to have his back. Greg, I'm sorry, 173 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: we're running out of time. No, I mean, it's really quickly. 174 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I do know, I think that's 175 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: exactly right. And I think the Attorney General is not 176 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: like any other cabinet office or yes, he or she 177 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: serves at the pleasure of the president, but he or 178 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: she also has an independent obligation to the Constitution and 179 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: the rule of law. And what's so remarkable about this 180 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: moment we're in is, of all the people, it really 181 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: appears that it's Jeff Sessions who is the guy standing 182 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: between President Trump and those principles. And I think that's 183 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: why there's such an important story and why it's so 184 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: important to see how it plays out. All Right, we're 185 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: gonna have to leave it there. Thanks as always to 186 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: Stephen Vladick, professor at the University of Texas Law School, 187 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: talking about the future of Jeff's Sessions