WEBVTT - How Police Interrogation Works 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.320 Welcome to you Stuff you should know from house Stuff 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:12.600 Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.680 Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Uh and Noel. 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.599 I guess producer nol is over there, which makes this 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.640 stuff you should know. Jerry's on the beach. Good for her. Yeah, 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.759 and I'm Jelly. Yeah, it'd be nice to be on 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.040 the beach right now. Surewood podcasting on the beach. Yeah, 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:35.519 Jerry's a beach person for sure. In uh, is she okay? 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.240 She was flip pops like in the dead of winter. Yeah, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:40.639 that's true, the beach person which got nice feet done. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.040 Can I say that I fired for saying that. I 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.360 don't think so. If you said it, like alone in 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.479 a room or something she didn't feel like she could leave, 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.120 you'd probably get fired for that. But yeah, saying it 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.480 on the podcast to everybody's probably in the clear. Okay, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:58.880 we'll find out. I mean, she edits these so she'll 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:04.360 say thanks. Jucker's there you go, So, Chuck, have you 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:09.720 ever been interrogated by the police. No, that's good. No, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.280 it's a good way to be I was shaking down 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.160 on the street once, but they didn't ask us any 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:19.320 questions stopping frisk Yeah, in New York. In Athens, m 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.800 just walk into the car after being out, threw us 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.120 all against the wall. Fristus been left. I'm sure it 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.040 was a real cop. Yeah, they were cops. Man. I 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:31.800 was like, what's going on? Huh, I don't even know. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.800 I still don't know what happened. Well, I guess they 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.720 were just stopping and frisking. A little known fact. Athens, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.840 George is the real home of stopping frisk Well, five 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.320 minutes after it happened, we didn't care. You know, these 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.480 are college days. Yeah. Now, though you must be burning 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.320 with a sense of injustice over the whole thing. Well, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.080 I ask you if you've ever been interrogated by the police, 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.560 because we're about to talk about police interrogation, so it 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.160 seems appropriate. And before we get started, I have some 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.560 side reading that I think might interest some people. Um, 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.360 there is a New Yorker article called the Interview. Um, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.240 there's one called Joe Arty was the Happiest Man on 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.240 Death Row. It's in Westward. Uh, there's something called Brooklyn's Baddest, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.520 which was in GQ. And then lastly, uh, looking left 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.280 or right doesn't indicate your lying in Smithsonian. So all 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.680 those articles are awesome, and they all have something to 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.680 do with this police interrogation, which is it turns out 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:35.240 becoming an increasingly controversial subject. Yeah, and I think this 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.240 probably brings our police suite to a close or close 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.720 to it, don't you think. I think so every time. 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:44.840 I know, and I didn't even know this existed, and 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:46.160 then I saw it and it turned out to be 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.079 one of the more interesting ones, I think. Yeah, and 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:53.280 it's kind of falls into this um law enforcement category, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:03:00.320 into the subcategory of are largely debunked armchair psychology jical 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:06.399 or armchair psychology techniques like polygraph Yeah, we did that, fingerprints, 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.280 they did that, truth serum we did that. Yeah. Like 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.280 there's all these episodes that we've done out there about 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.639 just law enforcement techniques. We're doing them. We were like, 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.359 oh wow, this is this should not be the way 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:24.240 it is. And apparently police interrogations similar. Yeah, it's a 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.400 bit of a shakedown. So let's talk about this. Like 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.080 in in the United States, there is um a long 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:36.240 and storied history of rather intense interrogation. I think you 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.520 know this this comes before the United States too. We 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.680 did a medieval torture episode as well. There were plenty 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.160 of interrogations going on. We did the Spanish inquisition that 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.160 was pre United States. Yeah, I would I would say 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.320 that falls into the banner though, of our police and 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:57.560 crime interrogation. Yeah right, so, um, the United States, though, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:02.839 has well carried on the torch of basically beating suspects 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.720 up to get confessions. This is where the term the 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.040 third degree comes from. Actually, Like when somebody's like, hey, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.440 why do you give me the third degree? They may 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.000 or may not know it, but they're they're speaking about 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.040 interrogation techniques that CAPS used to use. Yeah, those third 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.200 degree techniques, a lot of them were involved deprivation, like 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:25.360 or you know the one where they shine the bright 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.440 light in your face. That's old school. Yeah, that's an 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.240 old movie trope. But you know, no access to food 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.800 and water, Um, long periods of isolation, we might beat 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.080 up a little bit, we might threaten you. That's the 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.680 third degree, right and then uh, starting in about the thirties, 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.280 the public started to say, I don't know if this 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.040 is such a good idea because I might end up 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.320 in a police interrogation one day, and I don't want 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.440 to get beat up and then the I guess the 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.080 straw that started to break the camel's back came in 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.960 nineteen thirty seven in the case Brown versus Mississippi, where 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.960 Brown said, uh, your thug cops tied me up to 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.280 a tree and with me more than once, not just 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.800 whip me more than once. Strung me up in a tree, 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.760 to whip me more than once has happened repeatedly, and 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.760 I don't think that the confession they got should stand. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.680 The Supreme Court said, we agree with you. Yeah, it 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.520 was he and his two buddies were accused of murdering. Uh, 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.240 they were tenant farmers murdering their boss basically, And of 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.120 course they were black guys and the boss was a 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.240 white guy, so they were pretty determined. Then well, we'll 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.200 see over and over. A lot of these cases of 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:36.799 coerced false confessions h are mainly because someone really wants 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.479 to tab somebody as the criminal. Well, yeah, for a 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.320 lot of different reasons. There can be a sense of injustice. 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:49.880 There can be a genuine conviction that this person is guilty, um, 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.159 and then there can be the you know, the case 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.440 clearance um percentage that a cop needs to keep up. 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.360 But there's a lot of reasons why a cop might 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.040 say you need to confess. Yeah. I think a lot 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.320 of them too that I've seen documentaries on, at least 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.000 because of the public, Like, hey man, we really need 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.279 to finger somebody for this, because people are scared, and 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.560 who better than this person who might not be too 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.039 smart or might but might be kind of poor and 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.760 can't afford and doesn't you know, representation doesn't know what's 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.440 going on. So let's just run them up, run them up, 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.640 ring them up. Sure, run them up a flagpole, right, 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.440 and see if it sticks to the wall. Yeah. But 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.599 despite the fact that it is not easy to get 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:37.760 someone to confess, uh, they estimate between forty two of 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.400 suspects do confess and that's the one thing you don't 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.120 want to do, and up still do it. Yeah, so 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:50.400 we should say supposedly up to um eight percent of 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.400 suspects in in the United States wave their right to 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.600 silence and counsel. Yeah that's just wait, that's just agreeing 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:01.159 to be interrogated, right, not necessarily confessing. Yeah. So, but 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.159 you can get around the whole idea of a false 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.880 confession or of being coerced into confessing or whatever, just 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:11.200 by remaining silent, not being like part demand your lawyer. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.800 I mean, we're gonna give you some tips, um, not 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.760 how to get away with a crime, but some tips 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.640 on if you if you are rounded up and put 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.560 in a room, there are some things you can do. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.280 This is a public service announcement with guitars. By the 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:33.760 nineteen fifties, they confessions that were involuntary. Um, they consider 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.200 it involuntary, not just if you were beaten and threatened, 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.880 but if you were all the deprivation third degree techniques 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.320 were no longer allowed, like even if you couldn't use 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.520 the bathroom, or if you've been promised something in return 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.120 for confessing, or we'll go easy on you, buddy, or 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:52.320 if you'd even just been threatened, that counts as coercion too, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.640 And so in about the fifties, UM, the United States said, Hey, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:01.320 this kindler, kinder, gentler interrogation technique thing is is starting 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.760 to work out. Let's put a bow on the whole 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.560 thing and say that for a confession to be admissible, 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:12.680 the the confess or has to sign it yeah and 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.560 say yeah, I didn't, I didn't do anything under coercion. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.240 This is my own, full free confession. And here's my 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.880 signature and UM, which helped but certainly didn't stop false confessions. Right. 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:30.200 So the thing is is UM law enforcement replaced the 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:36.720 physical coercion with what amounts to plainly is psychological manipulation. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:43.040 And it's predicated on the idea that you when you 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.199 are saying you didn't do something and you're guilty, you 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:52.440 are going to become stressed out. And then the that 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.840 stress is derived from anxiety over knowing you're guilty and 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.800 having to lie, because when you're being interrogated, you're denying 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.160 that you're guilty. The cops don't just say, oh, okay, 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.840 well thanks for coming by. If they think you're guilty, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.840 they or they want to think you're guilty, They're going 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.960 to keep pressing you. Like interrogations aren't necessarily brief things, right, 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.160 So the more they press you, the more stressed you 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.440 should get. And the more stressed you get under this 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.640 idea of UM interrogation technique, the obviously the more obvious 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.160 it is that you're guilty, which means the more they 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.200 press So this feedback loop starts, right, Yeah. I mean 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.040 they're basically relying on a few basic human things inherent 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.120 to humans, tendencies, inherent to humans. Um. One is you're 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.400 gonna probably open up more to someone who is like you, uh, 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.800 to their If you start talking, it's gonna be hard 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.760 to stop. And three if you're if you're telling the truth, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.319 it's gonna be harder to lie. Right. So they kind 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.400 of prey on that with some age old techniques like 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.199 the good Cop, Bad Cop. Right you you uh, If 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.480 you feel like you're being persecuted, but then you're also 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.280 being rescued by somebody else, you're going to identify with 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.559 the rescuer, trust them. That's a classic move. And here's 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.559 the thing like that, a lot of this stuff, like 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.959 the good cop part um, is predicated on this complete 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:18.120 and utter deception that that cop understands where you're coming 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.040 from and sympathizes with you. That cop does not sympathize 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.000 with you. That cop may understand where you come from, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.880 but he or she probably despises that and they are 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.920 not your friend. But the whole one of the whole 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.440 points of um of interrogation is for the cop to 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.240 pretend like they're they're right there with you, they understand 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.560 where you're coming from, they feel for you. This is 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.720 just you're jammed up and I want to help you 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:44.559 get out of it. Oh yeah, you see. I mean 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.480 if if all this sounds super familiar from every TV 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.880 show or movie you've ever seen, is because they it's 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.760 been written so much that it's almost like they don't 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.240 need to do their own Like writers don't even need 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.679 to do their own research into how this is the 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.320 right because it's just how it is in the movies. 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.000 When it is in the movies is how it is 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.320 in real life. When I was reading this, I was like, oh, yeah, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.400 I've seen that before. I've seen that technique before. Like 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.719 it made me actually researching this article made me appreciate 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.080 that there are some TV cop show writers out there 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.480 who like really do their homework, like The Wire, like 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.480 every it was a little more nuance like Law and Order. Um, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.800 what is it? Uh? I don't watch those the one 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.920 vincent and offer you. I don't know. Oh, I can't 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.960 remember what it's called criminal minds something like that. It's 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.559 not it. Um like it's a little more overt, right, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.120 but it's all the all the factors are there. Yeah. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.760 Another one of the tried and true techniques is maximization. 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.000 That's when they try to scare you. Um, if you've 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.480 ever heard like, oh you're you're pretty Josh, they're gonna 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.160 love you in prisoner. I hear that almost every day. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:58.560 That is a classic maximization or just you know, they're 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.520 going to throw the book at you for what you've 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.760 done your unless you, you know, start playing along, you're 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.440 gonna get the max exactly. Um. They may also go 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.360 the exact opposite route, which is minimization, which is to 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:16.160 create the idea that society will will commiserate with you 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.719 because anybody in your position would have done the same thing, 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.640 you know, like that that little lady was asking for 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.760 her person to be taken, you know, in this day 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.520 and age, in this economy, that kind of thing. Um. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.880 Polygraph was used for a while, and they still used that, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.480 but most times, um, if you listen to our show 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.440 on polygraphs, they're not admissible in court. So a man 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.040 named John Reid, he was a polygraph analyst, said, you 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.760 know what, there's a lot of things that happen during 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.840 a polygraph exam that we can use without the machine 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.959 just to root out the truth or lies. Yeah. Basically, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.480 John Reid said, Hey, I've noticed through all of my 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.640 experience all of these things that a person who is 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:06.520 guilty or who confesses at least goes through. And here 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.439 are some ways to like really make this more efficient, 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.800 to make them react more strongly, to get them to 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.720 confess faster, more forcefully. And he came up with order 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.679 called the Read Technique. Nine steps of the Read Technique, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.600 registered trademark of Johnny Reidon Associates. Yeah, really, because Johnny 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.040 Reidon Associates is like this business that's still very much around. Yeah. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.880 I don't know if I need to say that, but 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.040 it is their technique. Yeah, and they trained the CIA, 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.960 the FBI, the local law enforcement there, like the in 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.319 the United States, the Red technique is the gold standard 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:48.000 for police interrogation. The problem is it is also being 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.400 increasingly proven to be based on basically armchair psychology and 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.559 not science. It's say, it's going through the same thing 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.920 right now that like a lot of the forensic sciences 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.040 are going through. There's like based on intuition that doesn't 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.040 really hold up to scrutiny. And I should say the 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.040 Read technique has not been across the board debunked, and 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.920 it makes sense in a lot of ways, but there 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.320 are studies out there that have said, like this doesn't 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.680 really this doesn't really hold up. Yeah, he defends it. Uh, 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.320 he says, it's very sound technique, but false confession comes 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:29.480 from improper use and bad police work. Yeah, and it's 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.800 not it's not necessarily like the read people are treated 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.239 like they're you know, they're out to get anybody and everybody. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.680 The red technique is criticized because the whole foundation that's 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.840 built on is the presumption of guilt, and it has 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:51.320 been shown to prove or produce false um confessions. And 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.560 we'll get to the read technique in a minute, but 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.160 after this message, we're gonna talk a little bit about 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.800 some of the earlier, h earlier parts of the process. 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.080 All right, if you sit down in a in a 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.200 room to get interrogated by the cops, one thing that 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.840 they're probably gonna start doing is lying to you and 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.320 saying we have evidence that they may not have. We 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:23.359 have witnesses that put you at the scene that don't exist. Basically, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.080 with a few exceptions, cops can lie and say whatever 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.280 they want in there, and that is going to make 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.560 someone nervous. Even though you were you know, surgical gloves 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.040 when you broke into that house. If they say your 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.320 fingers are all over the place. You're gonna start second 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.520 guessing yourself and get nervous. Yeah, and even if like 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.960 you weren't in that house ever, and you know that 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.920 you weren't in that house, you're gonna start to wonder 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.880 if maybe you suffer from blackouts and do horrible things 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.840 like this cop is saying, Wow, you're blacked out. Um, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.960 and yeah, the courts of upheld the cops right to deceive. Uh. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.120 And I've read about a study that found that of 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.000 six dirty detectives in the U. S. And Canada that 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.040 were pulled, say they use false evidence ploys where they're 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:12.160 saying surprises, Yeah, you would guess. I mean maybe the 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.960 other eight percent were just like they didn't even look 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.760 at what they were saying, you know, but yeah, they 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.880 you can and they do say we have your fingerprints, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.960 we have a witness, we have d n A. They 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.920 can completely lie about what they have and that they 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:34.080 have it on you to get you to confess. It 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.800 doesn't matter. You can't say, well that cops said he 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.640 had evidence doesn't matter. And the whole legal basis for 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.480 this idea for the cops being letting the cops deceive 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:49.760 is this UH longstanding notion that no innocent person would 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.480 ever sign a confession even if they were lied to 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.240 about physical evidence of their guilt being at the scene 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.920 of the crime, because there they know they're not guilty. 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.520 The problem is that long standing idea is coming under 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.960 more and more scrutinous is being found to be not 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.320 the case. Like people, it's been shown people will when 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.080 lied to in situations like that, they will confess to 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.320 things that they did not do. I know it seems 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.520 crazy for people like you and me, UM, because I 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.320 know I would never do that, but you know, I'm 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.840 not mentally challenged or I'm not poor, and I haven't 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.240 you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone might 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.840 falsely confess. Yeah, and I think though also it's not 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.000 just necessarily like going how you are going into it. Like, Yes, 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.760 the a lot of the like mentally ill people UM 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:45.160 make up a decent amount of UM false confessions. Same 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:51.000 with UM, mentally handicapped, cognitively impaired people, UM, people of 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.960 low socioeconomic status. There are a lot of a lot 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.879 of factors that set you up to be more likely 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.920 to have a false or give a false confession. Knowing 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.560 your rights, but if you took if we took you 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.439 and ran you through a long enough um interrogation with 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.240 people who knew what they were doing. Yeah, they who 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.120 knows what you would sign? I'd be all right, we'll 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.080 see because I understand this all. I know my rights. 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.800 I have a very strong mind. You would probably say 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.200 I want a lawyer. Well, yeah, I just ended all. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.440 And then I'd be like, m I don't know any lawyers. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.399 Do you know a lawyer? Have an entertainment attorney? Does 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:32.480 that count? Um? They know lawyers? Yeah, exactly. This is 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.240 the whole network. So um, once they bring you in 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.360 the room, the room itself h and this is all 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.520 from Read's manual. He wrote a manual nineteen sixty two 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.520 with a Northwestern law professor named fred In Mao called 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.080 Criminal Interrogation and Confessions. I imagine every writer in Hollywood 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.199 has a copy of that on their shelf. Um. But 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.400 the room that you see on TV, that's what there. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:58.400 They suggest you know. Nothing on the walls, a very 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.320 plain desk, a very un comfortable chair on one side, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.280 two chairs on the other for the detectives. Um, that 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.600 one way mirror that's gonna serve a purpose of letting 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.679 people spy on you and just to make you nervous, 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.800 even if there's no one on the other side, and 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.280 put you out of reach from this one. I didn't 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.600 really uh, I had never really noticed. But out of 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.040 reachs from just light switches and maybe the the a 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.879 c uh what do you call those thermostat thermostatic just 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.440 to make you feel powerless. It's all a mind game 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.080 to make you feel helpless. So far seems pretty intuitive, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.719 pretty logical, Like if you can't flip the lights on 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:36.639 and off, it's not something I would think that I 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.520 would want to do right then, but maybe knowing seeing 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.920 that it was that far away, Yeah, woid just give 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.640 me this reinforced the idea that like, I couldn't even 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.400 if I wanted to, because it's all the way over there. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.720 That's probably a small detective in between me and that, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.520 like exactly, but it makes sense. But I point that 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.440 out because that's that's the read technique. Stuff like that, 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.480 keep the light switches away from the criminal because it'll 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.879 make him feel helpless. Does It sounds a little hinky, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.399 but it it makes sense in a way. That is 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.720 the red technique encapsulated. So let's continue, Chuck, So that 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.480 was that's just the room that they suggest there there 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.399 if you follow the re technique to a t, and 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.240 this is one of the saving graces of it. Um, 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.560 you're supposed to do what's an initial interview. And if 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.320 you're the detective and you go into in an initial 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.920 interview of an interrogation, you are the red technique tasks 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.520 you with going in without a presumption of guilt. Yet 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.679 that's the point of the initial interview, is you're supposed 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.440 to be sizing your guy up and determining for yourself 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.840 as a seasoned investigator, whether you think initially they're guilty 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.159 or innocent. I'm sure that happens some Yeah, there was 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.480 another study that found that it's often skipped as well. UM, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.880 and that's they just start like hammering right away. Well, yeah, 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:01.080 you're throwing out the the the potential for this um, 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.080 this person to be treated as possibly innocent. Right, you're 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.080 not sizing up. You're going in assuming they're guilty. So 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.880 but if you if you do go through that initial interview, 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.600 the other point of it is that you're supposed to 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.840 be creating a baseline yea, which I think is that 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:19.240 showed up in the polygraph one too, which isn't surprising 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.640 because John Reid was a polygraph expert for a while too. Yeah, 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.040 and you've been gratiated yourself, you know, in the first 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.160 few minutes by this point, like, uh, if if you're 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.800 if you're in Philadelphia and your suspect has on like 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.240 a Phillies cap, you might talk about the game last night, 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.640 right exactly, And that that throws back to, um, the 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.800 suspect being more likely can you trust someone that shares 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.200 their same views that they feel they can identify with, 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:45.160 So the detective will do whatever they can to make 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.240 it seem like, oh, you're a Catholic, I'm a Catholic too, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:50.960 that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, And so once 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.280 you've got a little bit of rapport going on is 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.840 when you're gonna set your baseline. And I thought this 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.440 is pretty interesting. You don't and I'm gonna start looking 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.200 for this on cop shows to see if they don't 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.760 overtly talk about it, if they're just how good they 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:08.000 are with their you know, uh, with their acting, because 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.040 if they're looking at the eyes, um, then they're gonna 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.359 be accurate. Because that's one of the ways supposedly you 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.639 can create a baseline um, you're gonna ask some some 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.440 questions that require memory recall, and you're gonna ask other 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.679 questions that require more creativity, and you're gonna look at 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.359 where their eyes go. Supposedly, if your eyes moved to 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.640 the right, that is just recall, because you're I guess, 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.200 looking in the direction of your memory center of your brain. 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:38.680 If it's more creative, you might look to the left. 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.560 And then then you're gonna use these later on to 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.000 see if your suspect is creatively making up a lie, 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.000 they might look to the left, or if they're just 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.720 truthfully recalling something, they might look to the right. Is 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.760 that bunk? Yes, all right. It's very dangerous too, because 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:57.960 they that is incredibly widespread. It's a popular misconception. If 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.000 you ask anybody if you move your eyes a certain 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.760 way doesn't indicate your lying, most people are gonna say, yes, yeah, 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.120