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Speaker 1: Welcome to you Stuff you should know from house Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Uh and Noel.

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Speaker 1: I guess producer nol is over there, which makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Jerry's on the beach. Good for her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Jelly. Yeah, it'd be nice to be on

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Speaker 1: the beach right now. Surewood podcasting on the beach. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jerry's a beach person for sure. In uh, is she okay?

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Speaker 1: She was flip pops like in the dead of winter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true, the beach person which got nice feet done.

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Speaker 1: Can I say that I fired for saying that. I

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Speaker 1: don't think so. If you said it, like alone in

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Speaker 1: a room or something she didn't feel like she could leave,

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Speaker 1: you'd probably get fired for that. But yeah, saying it

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Speaker 1: on the podcast to everybody's probably in the clear. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll find out. I mean, she edits these so she'll

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Speaker 1: say thanks. Jucker's there you go, So, Chuck, have you

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Speaker 1: ever been interrogated by the police. No, that's good. No,

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Speaker 1: it's a good way to be I was shaking down

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Speaker 1: on the street once, but they didn't ask us any

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Speaker 1: questions stopping frisk Yeah, in New York. In Athens, m

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Speaker 1: just walk into the car after being out, threw us

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Speaker 1: all against the wall. Fristus been left. I'm sure it

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Speaker 1: was a real cop. Yeah, they were cops. Man. I

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Speaker 1: was like, what's going on? Huh, I don't even know.

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Speaker 1: I still don't know what happened. Well, I guess they

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Speaker 1: were just stopping and frisking. A little known fact. Athens,

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Speaker 1: George is the real home of stopping frisk Well, five

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Speaker 1: minutes after it happened, we didn't care. You know, these

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Speaker 1: are college days. Yeah. Now, though you must be burning

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Speaker 1: with a sense of injustice over the whole thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: I ask you if you've ever been interrogated by the police,

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Speaker 1: because we're about to talk about police interrogation, so it

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Speaker 1: seems appropriate. And before we get started, I have some

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Speaker 1: side reading that I think might interest some people. Um,

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Speaker 1: there is a New Yorker article called the Interview. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's one called Joe Arty was the Happiest Man on

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Speaker 1: Death Row. It's in Westward. Uh, there's something called Brooklyn's Baddest,

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Speaker 1: which was in GQ. And then lastly, uh, looking left

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Speaker 1: or right doesn't indicate your lying in Smithsonian. So all

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Speaker 1: those articles are awesome, and they all have something to

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Speaker 1: do with this police interrogation, which is it turns out

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Speaker 1: becoming an increasingly controversial subject. Yeah, and I think this

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Speaker 1: probably brings our police suite to a close or close

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Speaker 1: to it, don't you think. I think so every time.

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Speaker 1: I know, and I didn't even know this existed, and

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Speaker 1: then I saw it and it turned out to be

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Speaker 1: one of the more interesting ones, I think. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of falls into this um law enforcement category,

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Speaker 1: into the subcategory of are largely debunked armchair psychology jical

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Speaker 1: or armchair psychology techniques like polygraph Yeah, we did that, fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: they did that, truth serum we did that. Yeah. Like

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Speaker 1: there's all these episodes that we've done out there about

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Speaker 1: just law enforcement techniques. We're doing them. We were like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, this is this should not be the way

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Speaker 1: it is. And apparently police interrogations similar. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a shakedown. So let's talk about this. Like

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Speaker 1: in in the United States, there is um a long

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Speaker 1: and storied history of rather intense interrogation. I think you

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Speaker 1: know this this comes before the United States too. We

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Speaker 1: did a medieval torture episode as well. There were plenty

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Speaker 1: of interrogations going on. We did the Spanish inquisition that

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Speaker 1: was pre United States. Yeah, I would I would say

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Speaker 1: that falls into the banner though, of our police and

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Speaker 1: crime interrogation. Yeah right, so, um, the United States, though,

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Speaker 1: has well carried on the torch of basically beating suspects

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Speaker 1: up to get confessions. This is where the term the

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Speaker 1: third degree comes from. Actually, Like when somebody's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: why do you give me the third degree? They may

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Speaker 1: or may not know it, but they're they're speaking about

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Speaker 1: interrogation techniques that CAPS used to use. Yeah, those third

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Speaker 1: degree techniques, a lot of them were involved deprivation, like

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Speaker 1: or you know the one where they shine the bright

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Speaker 1: light in your face. That's old school. Yeah, that's an

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Speaker 1: old movie trope. But you know, no access to food

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Speaker 1: and water, Um, long periods of isolation, we might beat

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Speaker 1: up a little bit, we might threaten you. That's the

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Speaker 1: third degree, right and then uh, starting in about the thirties,

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Speaker 1: the public started to say, I don't know if this

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Speaker 1: is such a good idea because I might end up

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Speaker 1: in a police interrogation one day, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get beat up and then the I guess the

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Speaker 1: straw that started to break the camel's back came in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven in the case Brown versus Mississippi, where

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Speaker 1: Brown said, uh, your thug cops tied me up to

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Speaker 1: a tree and with me more than once, not just

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Speaker 1: whip me more than once. Strung me up in a tree,

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Speaker 1: to whip me more than once has happened repeatedly, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think that the confession they got should stand.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court said, we agree with you. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was he and his two buddies were accused of murdering. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they were tenant farmers murdering their boss basically, And of

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Speaker 1: course they were black guys and the boss was a

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Speaker 1: white guy, so they were pretty determined. Then well, we'll

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Speaker 1: see over and over. A lot of these cases of

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Speaker 1: coerced false confessions h are mainly because someone really wants

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Speaker 1: to tab somebody as the criminal. Well, yeah, for a

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Speaker 1: lot of different reasons. There can be a sense of injustice.

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Speaker 1: There can be a genuine conviction that this person is guilty, um,

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Speaker 1: and then there can be the you know, the case

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Speaker 1: clearance um percentage that a cop needs to keep up.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of reasons why a cop might

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Speaker 1: say you need to confess. Yeah. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of them too that I've seen documentaries on, at least

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Speaker 1: because of the public, Like, hey man, we really need

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Speaker 1: to finger somebody for this, because people are scared, and

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Speaker 1: who better than this person who might not be too

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Speaker 1: smart or might but might be kind of poor and

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Speaker 1: can't afford and doesn't you know, representation doesn't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on. So let's just run them up, run them up,

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Speaker 1: ring them up. Sure, run them up a flagpole, right,

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Speaker 1: and see if it sticks to the wall. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that it is not easy to get

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Speaker 1: someone to confess, uh, they estimate between forty two of

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Speaker 1: suspects do confess and that's the one thing you don't

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Speaker 1: want to do, and up still do it. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we should say supposedly up to um eight percent of

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Speaker 1: suspects in in the United States wave their right to

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Speaker 1: silence and counsel. Yeah that's just wait, that's just agreeing

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Speaker 1: to be interrogated, right, not necessarily confessing. Yeah. So, but

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Speaker 1: you can get around the whole idea of a false

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Speaker 1: confession or of being coerced into confessing or whatever, just

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Speaker 1: by remaining silent, not being like part demand your lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're gonna give you some tips, um, not

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Speaker 1: how to get away with a crime, but some tips

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Speaker 1: on if you if you are rounded up and put

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Speaker 1: in a room, there are some things you can do.

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Speaker 1: This is a public service announcement with guitars. By the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, they confessions that were involuntary. Um, they consider

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Speaker 1: it involuntary, not just if you were beaten and threatened,

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Speaker 1: but if you were all the deprivation third degree techniques

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Speaker 1: were no longer allowed, like even if you couldn't use

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, or if you've been promised something in return

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Speaker 1: for confessing, or we'll go easy on you, buddy, or

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Speaker 1: if you'd even just been threatened, that counts as coercion too,

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Speaker 1: And so in about the fifties, UM, the United States said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this kindler, kinder, gentler interrogation technique thing is is starting

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Speaker 1: to work out. Let's put a bow on the whole

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Speaker 1: thing and say that for a confession to be admissible,

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Speaker 1: the the confess or has to sign it yeah and

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Speaker 1: say yeah, I didn't, I didn't do anything under coercion.

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Speaker 1: This is my own, full free confession. And here's my

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Speaker 1: signature and UM, which helped but certainly didn't stop false confessions. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the thing is is UM law enforcement replaced the

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Speaker 1: physical coercion with what amounts to plainly is psychological manipulation.

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Speaker 1: And it's predicated on the idea that you when you

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Speaker 1: are saying you didn't do something and you're guilty, you

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Speaker 1: are going to become stressed out. And then the that

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Speaker 1: stress is derived from anxiety over knowing you're guilty and

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Speaker 1: having to lie, because when you're being interrogated, you're denying

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Speaker 1: that you're guilty. The cops don't just say, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: well thanks for coming by. If they think you're guilty,

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Speaker 1: they or they want to think you're guilty, They're going

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Speaker 1: to keep pressing you. Like interrogations aren't necessarily brief things, right,

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Speaker 1: So the more they press you, the more stressed you

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Speaker 1: should get. And the more stressed you get under this

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Speaker 1: idea of UM interrogation technique, the obviously the more obvious

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Speaker 1: it is that you're guilty, which means the more they

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Speaker 1: press So this feedback loop starts, right, Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: they're basically relying on a few basic human things inherent

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Speaker 1: to humans, tendencies, inherent to humans. Um. One is you're

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Speaker 1: gonna probably open up more to someone who is like you, uh,

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Speaker 1: to their If you start talking, it's gonna be hard

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Speaker 1: to stop. And three if you're if you're telling the truth,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be harder to lie. Right. So they kind

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Speaker 1: of prey on that with some age old techniques like

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Speaker 1: the good Cop, Bad Cop. Right you you uh, If

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Speaker 1: you feel like you're being persecuted, but then you're also

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Speaker 1: being rescued by somebody else, you're going to identify with

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Speaker 1: the rescuer, trust them. That's a classic move. And here's

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Speaker 1: the thing like that, a lot of this stuff, like

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Speaker 1: the good cop part um, is predicated on this complete

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Speaker 1: and utter deception that that cop understands where you're coming

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Speaker 1: from and sympathizes with you. That cop does not sympathize

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Speaker 1: with you. That cop may understand where you come from,

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Speaker 1: but he or she probably despises that and they are

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Speaker 1: not your friend. But the whole one of the whole

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Speaker 1: points of um of interrogation is for the cop to

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Speaker 1: pretend like they're they're right there with you, they understand

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from, they feel for you. This is

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Speaker 1: just you're jammed up and I want to help you

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Speaker 1: get out of it. Oh yeah, you see. I mean

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Speaker 1: if if all this sounds super familiar from every TV

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Speaker 1: show or movie you've ever seen, is because they it's

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Speaker 1: been written so much that it's almost like they don't

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Speaker 1: need to do their own Like writers don't even need

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Speaker 1: to do their own research into how this is the

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Speaker 1: right because it's just how it is in the movies.

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Speaker 1: When it is in the movies is how it is

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Speaker 1: in real life. When I was reading this, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've seen that before. I've seen that technique before. Like

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Speaker 1: it made me actually researching this article made me appreciate

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Speaker 1: that there are some TV cop show writers out there

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Speaker 1: who like really do their homework, like The Wire, like

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Speaker 1: every it was a little more nuance like Law and Order. Um,

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Speaker 1: what is it? Uh? I don't watch those the one

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Speaker 1: vincent and offer you. I don't know. Oh, I can't

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Speaker 1: remember what it's called criminal minds something like that. It's

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Speaker 1: not it. Um like it's a little more overt, right,

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Speaker 1: but it's all the all the factors are there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Another one of the tried and true techniques is maximization.

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Speaker 1: That's when they try to scare you. Um, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever heard like, oh you're you're pretty Josh, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: love you in prisoner. I hear that almost every day.

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Speaker 1: That is a classic maximization or just you know, they're

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Speaker 1: going to throw the book at you for what you've

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Speaker 1: done your unless you, you know, start playing along, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get the max exactly. Um. They may also go

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Speaker 1: the exact opposite route, which is minimization, which is to

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Speaker 1: create the idea that society will will commiserate with you

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Speaker 1: because anybody in your position would have done the same thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that that little lady was asking for

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Speaker 1: her person to be taken, you know, in this day

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Speaker 1: and age, in this economy, that kind of thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: Polygraph was used for a while, and they still used that,

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Speaker 1: but most times, um, if you listen to our show

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Speaker 1: on polygraphs, they're not admissible in court. So a man

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Speaker 1: named John Reid, he was a polygraph analyst, said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, there's a lot of things that happen during

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Speaker 1: a polygraph exam that we can use without the machine

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Speaker 1: just to root out the truth or lies. Yeah. Basically,

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Speaker 1: John Reid said, Hey, I've noticed through all of my

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Speaker 1: experience all of these things that a person who is

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Speaker 1: guilty or who confesses at least goes through. And here

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Speaker 1: are some ways to like really make this more efficient,

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Speaker 1: to make them react more strongly, to get them to

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Speaker 1: confess faster, more forcefully. And he came up with order

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Speaker 1: called the Read Technique. Nine steps of the Read Technique,

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Speaker 1: registered trademark of Johnny Reidon Associates. Yeah, really, because Johnny

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Speaker 1: Reidon Associates is like this business that's still very much around. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I need to say that, but

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Speaker 1: it is their technique. Yeah, and they trained the CIA,

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Speaker 1: the FBI, the local law enforcement there, like the in

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Speaker 1: the United States, the Red technique is the gold standard

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Speaker 1: for police interrogation. The problem is it is also being

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Speaker 1: increasingly proven to be based on basically armchair psychology and

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Speaker 1: not science. It's say, it's going through the same thing

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Speaker 1: right now that like a lot of the forensic sciences

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Speaker 1: are going through. There's like based on intuition that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really hold up to scrutiny. And I should say the

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Speaker 1: Read technique has not been across the board debunked, and

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Speaker 1: it makes sense in a lot of ways, but there

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Speaker 1: are studies out there that have said, like this doesn't

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Speaker 1: really this doesn't really hold up. Yeah, he defends it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he says, it's very sound technique, but false confession comes

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Speaker 1: from improper use and bad police work. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not necessarily like the read people are treated

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Speaker 1: like they're you know, they're out to get anybody and everybody.

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Speaker 1: The red technique is criticized because the whole foundation that's

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Speaker 1: built on is the presumption of guilt, and it has

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Speaker 1: been shown to prove or produce false um confessions. And

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Speaker 1: we'll get to the read technique in a minute, but

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Speaker 1: after this message, we're gonna talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: some of the earlier, h earlier parts of the process.

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Speaker 1: All right, if you sit down in a in a

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Speaker 1: room to get interrogated by the cops, one thing that

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Speaker 1: they're probably gonna start doing is lying to you and

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Speaker 1: saying we have evidence that they may not have. We

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Speaker 1: have witnesses that put you at the scene that don't exist. Basically,

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Speaker 1: with a few exceptions, cops can lie and say whatever

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Speaker 1: they want in there, and that is going to make

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Speaker 1: someone nervous. Even though you were you know, surgical gloves

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Speaker 1: when you broke into that house. If they say your

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Speaker 1: fingers are all over the place. You're gonna start second

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Speaker 1: guessing yourself and get nervous. Yeah, and even if like

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Speaker 1: you weren't in that house ever, and you know that

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Speaker 1: you weren't in that house, you're gonna start to wonder

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Speaker 1: if maybe you suffer from blackouts and do horrible things

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Speaker 1: like this cop is saying, Wow, you're blacked out. Um,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, the courts of upheld the cops right to deceive. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I've read about a study that found that of

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Speaker 1: six dirty detectives in the U. S. And Canada that

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Speaker 1: were pulled, say they use false evidence ploys where they're

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Speaker 1: saying surprises, Yeah, you would guess. I mean maybe the

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Speaker 1: other eight percent were just like they didn't even look

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Speaker 1: at what they were saying, you know, but yeah, they

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Speaker 1: you can and they do say we have your fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: we have a witness, we have d n A. They

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Speaker 1: can completely lie about what they have and that they

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Speaker 1: have it on you to get you to confess. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. You can't say, well that cops said he

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Speaker 1: had evidence doesn't matter. And the whole legal basis for

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Speaker 1: this idea for the cops being letting the cops deceive

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Speaker 1: is this UH longstanding notion that no innocent person would

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Speaker 1: ever sign a confession even if they were lied to

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Speaker 1: about physical evidence of their guilt being at the scene

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Speaker 1: of the crime, because there they know they're not guilty.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that long standing idea is coming under

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Speaker 1: more and more scrutinous is being found to be not

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Speaker 1: the case. Like people, it's been shown people will when

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Speaker 1: lied to in situations like that, they will confess to

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Speaker 1: things that they did not do. I know it seems

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Speaker 1: crazy for people like you and me, UM, because I

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Speaker 1: know I would never do that, but you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not mentally challenged or I'm not poor, and I haven't

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone might

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Speaker 1: falsely confess. Yeah, and I think though also it's not

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Speaker 1: just necessarily like going how you are going into it. Like, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the a lot of the like mentally ill people UM

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Speaker 1: make up a decent amount of UM false confessions. Same

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Speaker 1: with UM, mentally handicapped, cognitively impaired people, UM, people of

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Speaker 1: low socioeconomic status. There are a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of factors that set you up to be more likely

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Speaker 1: to have a false or give a false confession. Knowing

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Speaker 1: your rights, but if you took if we took you

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Speaker 1: and ran you through a long enough um interrogation with

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Speaker 1: people who knew what they were doing. Yeah, they who

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Speaker 1: knows what you would sign? I'd be all right, we'll

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Speaker 1: see because I understand this all. I know my rights.

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Speaker 1: I have a very strong mind. You would probably say

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Speaker 1: I want a lawyer. Well, yeah, I just ended all.

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Speaker 1: And then I'd be like, m I don't know any lawyers.

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Speaker 1: Do you know a lawyer? Have an entertainment attorney? Does

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Speaker 1: that count? Um? They know lawyers? Yeah, exactly. This is

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Speaker 1: the whole network. So um, once they bring you in

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Speaker 1: the room, the room itself h and this is all

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Speaker 1: from Read's manual. He wrote a manual nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: with a Northwestern law professor named fred In Mao called

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Speaker 1: Criminal Interrogation and Confessions. I imagine every writer in Hollywood

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Speaker 1: has a copy of that on their shelf. Um. But

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Speaker 1: the room that you see on TV, that's what there.

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Speaker 1: They suggest you know. Nothing on the walls, a very

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Speaker 1: plain desk, a very un comfortable chair on one side,

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Speaker 1: two chairs on the other for the detectives. Um, that

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Speaker 1: one way mirror that's gonna serve a purpose of letting

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Speaker 1: people spy on you and just to make you nervous,

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Speaker 1: even if there's no one on the other side, and

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Speaker 1: put you out of reach from this one. I didn't

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Speaker 1: really uh, I had never really noticed. But out of

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Speaker 1: reachs from just light switches and maybe the the a

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Speaker 1: c uh what do you call those thermostat thermostatic just

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Speaker 1: to make you feel powerless. It's all a mind game

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Speaker 1: to make you feel helpless. So far seems pretty intuitive,

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Speaker 1: pretty logical, Like if you can't flip the lights on

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Speaker 1: and off, it's not something I would think that I

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Speaker 1: would want to do right then, but maybe knowing seeing

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Speaker 1: that it was that far away, Yeah, woid just give

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Speaker 1: me this reinforced the idea that like, I couldn't even

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Speaker 1: if I wanted to, because it's all the way over there.

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Speaker 1: That's probably a small detective in between me and that,

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Speaker 1: like exactly, but it makes sense. But I point that

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Speaker 1: out because that's that's the read technique. Stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: keep the light switches away from the criminal because it'll

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Speaker 1: make him feel helpless. Does It sounds a little hinky,

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Speaker 1: but it it makes sense in a way. That is

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Speaker 1: the red technique encapsulated. So let's continue, Chuck, So that

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Speaker 1: was that's just the room that they suggest there there

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Speaker 1: if you follow the re technique to a t, and

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Speaker 1: this is one of the saving graces of it. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to do what's an initial interview. And if

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Speaker 1: you're the detective and you go into in an initial

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Speaker 1: interview of an interrogation, you are the red technique tasks

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Speaker 1: you with going in without a presumption of guilt. Yet

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Speaker 1: that's the point of the initial interview, is you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be sizing your guy up and determining for yourself

356
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Speaker 1: as a seasoned investigator, whether you think initially they're guilty

357
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Speaker 1: or innocent. I'm sure that happens some Yeah, there was

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Speaker 1: another study that found that it's often skipped as well. UM,

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Speaker 1: and that's they just start like hammering right away. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're throwing out the the the potential for this um,

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Speaker 1: this person to be treated as possibly innocent. Right, you're

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Speaker 1: not sizing up. You're going in assuming they're guilty. So

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Speaker 1: but if you if you do go through that initial interview,

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Speaker 1: the other point of it is that you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be creating a baseline yea, which I think is that

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Speaker 1: showed up in the polygraph one too, which isn't surprising

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Speaker 1: because John Reid was a polygraph expert for a while too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you've been gratiated yourself, you know, in the first

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Speaker 1: few minutes by this point, like, uh, if if you're

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Speaker 1: if you're in Philadelphia and your suspect has on like

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Speaker 1: a Phillies cap, you might talk about the game last night,

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Speaker 1: right exactly, And that that throws back to, um, the

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Speaker 1: suspect being more likely can you trust someone that shares

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Speaker 1: their same views that they feel they can identify with,

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Speaker 1: So the detective will do whatever they can to make

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Speaker 1: it seem like, oh, you're a Catholic, I'm a Catholic too,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, And so once

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Speaker 1: you've got a little bit of rapport going on is

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Speaker 1: when you're gonna set your baseline. And I thought this

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Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. You don't and I'm gonna start looking

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Speaker 1: for this on cop shows to see if they don't

382
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Speaker 1: overtly talk about it, if they're just how good they

383
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Speaker 1: are with their you know, uh, with their acting, because

384
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Speaker 1: if they're looking at the eyes, um, then they're gonna

385
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Speaker 1: be accurate. Because that's one of the ways supposedly you

386
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Speaker 1: can create a baseline um, you're gonna ask some some

387
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Speaker 1: questions that require memory recall, and you're gonna ask other

388
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Speaker 1: questions that require more creativity, and you're gonna look at

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Speaker 1: where their eyes go. Supposedly, if your eyes moved to

390
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Speaker 1: the right, that is just recall, because you're I guess,

391
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Speaker 1: looking in the direction of your memory center of your brain.

392
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Speaker 1: If it's more creative, you might look to the left.

393
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Speaker 1: And then then you're gonna use these later on to

394
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Speaker 1: see if your suspect is creatively making up a lie,

395
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Speaker 1: they might look to the left, or if they're just

396
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Speaker 1: truthfully recalling something, they might look to the right. Is

397
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Speaker 1: that bunk? Yes, all right. It's very dangerous too, because

398
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Speaker 1: they that is incredibly widespread. It's a popular misconception. If

399
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Speaker 1: you ask anybody if you move your eyes a certain

400
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Speaker 1: way doesn't indicate your lying, most people are gonna say, yes, yeah,

401
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Speaker 1: it totally does. I can't remember if it's right or left,

402
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Speaker 1: but if you look a certain way, it means you're lying.

403
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Speaker 1: So that's a longstanding thing that's based actually on a

404
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: self help philosophy from the seventies that's nothing to do

405
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Speaker 1: with science. And actually Richard Wiseman, who we um incorrectly

406
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Speaker 1: said did some research that proved that ghosts exist in

407
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Speaker 1: our ghost episode. That guy, he's done someones to debunk this.

408
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Speaker 1: He did a couple of studies and in one of

409
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Speaker 1: the studies he found, um he he used footage of

410
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Speaker 1: people who were holding press conferences searching for lost relatives.

411
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Speaker 1: But the person pleaing for their relatives return was later

412
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Speaker 1: convicted of like killing or kidnapping their their relatives, so

413
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Speaker 1: they were obviously lying. They were committing a huge lie

414
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Speaker 1: in front of the public, and he found that they

415
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Speaker 1: were just as likely to look to the left or

416
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Speaker 1: the right. There was no correlation whatsoever. Yeah, I'm sure

417
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Speaker 1: there are facial cues of pantomimes if you're Christopher walking,

418
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Speaker 1: but um, it all depends on the person to write.

419
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Speaker 1: Like you could be really good at line or really

420
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Speaker 1: good at throwing people off with facial cues. Yeah, or

421
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Speaker 1: the idea that your eyes move in a certain direction

422
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Speaker 1: at all because you're coming up with a lie or

423
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Speaker 1: because you're remembering something might not It doesn't mean anything necessarily. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we also did one of micro expressions. This is a

425
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: culmination of a lot of shows, I'm realized. Yeah, it

426
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: really is. Yeah, So Um. That was another one. You

427
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: you've got the baseline set. You're watching the eyes even

428
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: though you really shouldn't be. Um. But for the most part,

429
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: you're you're seeing what your suspect appears like when they're

430
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: stressed or I'm sorry, when they're relaxed. And and the

431
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: reason you're creating this baseline of what they act like

432
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: when they're relaxed is because if you ask them questions

433
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: and they answer them and appear relaxed, then supposedly they're

434
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: telling the truth. A in this is predicated on some

435
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: faulty ideas, because here's the problem. Anxiety is not necessarily

436
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: linked to lying. Like, yes, you may appear anxious if

437
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: you're lying, but that doesn't mean that if you're anxious,

438
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: you're lying, right. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

439
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: I would do that. I would do the Chuck Chuck technique.

440
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: Would be the fast thing, like I would set him up.

441
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: I'll calm and be like, Hey, do you watch the

442
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: game last night? Yeah? How cool? Why did you kill it?

443
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: Old lady? Yeah? You like the Phillies? Yeah, it was

444
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: a pretty good game. How do you think they're gonna

445
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: go far? Yeah? Did you kill your wife and boom.

446
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: That was pretty good. You almost said yes, yeah, really

447
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: and you didn't kill your wife? No, I meanez, that

448
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: was thrilling. The chuck technique. I I like the Colombo.

449
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: What's that? Oh, well, you're just like that's that's great.

450
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: I'm glad you like the Phillies. I just want to

451
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: thank you for coming by. That's it was good to

452
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: meet you. Write if we if we need anything, can

453
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: we call you? And they're like yeah, they're so relieved

454
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: that they get to eat, and then you, oh, I'm sorry.

455
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: One more thing, Why did you kill your wife? That

456
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: Colombo did? Yeah, here's a little better at it than

457
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: I was. He would say, there's there's just there's one

458
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: of the things just not making sense to me. If

459
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: you didn't kill your wife, why were you found standing

460
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: over with the knife? Yeah, so that's how Colombo would

461
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: catch him off guard, like really get them to let

462
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: their guard down. Yeah. I like that. So you said,

463
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: he I know what Colombo was. I was about to

464
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: say he went on and killed his wife. But that

465
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: was Robert Blake. Yeah, that was Barretta. What was his technique?

466
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never watched Barretta check your gun

467
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: with the maitre D. And then isn't that what he did? Know?

468
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: What did you do? I think he left his gun

469
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: with the matred D. Supposed that's what he said he did,

470
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm here table for two, here's my

471
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: coat and here's my gun. Yeah, well you hang onto

472
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: that for me? Will you be my alibi? Um? I

473
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: think we're at the read technique now, right we are.

474
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: So the the other stuff was from the book that's

475
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: based on the read technique criminal interrogation and confessions. But

476
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: now we are at the actual read technique, the nine

477
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: point technique that is designed to maximize um discomfort which

478
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: leads to more frequent confessions. Yeah, and it's actually it's

479
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: illegal and a lot of European countries for children, um,

480
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: which which it should because that's another risk factor going

481
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: in that can produce false confessions is age, of course,

482
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,479
Speaker 1: and we'll get to some of those later. Those are

483
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: kind of uh maddening when you read about like a

484
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: fourteen year old it's interrogated without their parents for like

485
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: a full day, but it happens. So step number one

486
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: and the read technique is the confrontation. Uh. And this

487
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: is after the initial interview you have, you're going to

488
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: present the facts of the case. You're gonna tell them

489
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: about the evidence, um, what they're faced with, the all

490
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: the evidence against them, even if you're making some of

491
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: it up. You might want to invade their personals based

492
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: at this time if you're Matthew McConaughey, uh, and then

493
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: you start looking for things like fidgety, uh, suspect they

494
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: look in their lips, are they like muscle with their hair, um,

495
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: And then if you're an investigator, you might say, all right,

496
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: I've got this guy just where I want him. That

497
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: guy ran his fingers through his hair, he's guilty, exactly.

498
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: And that's kind of part of the part of the

499
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: issue that a lot of critics of the re technique

500
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: bring up, um, is that basically, if you stripped non

501
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: verbal stuff out, then you've got some sound stuff there. Right.

502
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: The biggest problem is when you're trying to read nonverbal

503
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: cues because there's it's not rooted in science. Its rooted

504
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: in armchair psychology and pop science totally. So the idea

505
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: that somebody's fidgeting meanings they're guilty and they're lying. Not

506
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: necessarily they could be fidgeting because any human being would

507
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: be really uncomfortable when placed in that situation and interrogated

508
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: by cops who are experts at it. Right. Uh So,

509
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: step number two is theme development, and you're gonna be

510
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 1: a little more soothing here with a softer voice. And

511
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: this is when you come up with some some theories

512
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: and a story maybe of why they committed this crime,

513
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: Like you know, you just couldn't go on any longer. Know,

514
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: when your best friend at sex with your wife. You

515
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: just couldn't live with that, could you. And if the

516
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: suspect latches onto that and some verbal or nonverbal ways

517
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: and they'll continue they don't, then they'll just create another theme. Yeah,

518
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: and the the detective will basically just kind of while

519
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: they're creating the story for the for the suspect to

520
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: latch onto, they're also actively listening to the suspect to

521
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: see if the suspect will latch onto it in any way,

522
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: shape or form, and if they don't, they try another one.

523
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: If they do, then they start to kind of beat

524
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: that one up and that leads alternatives, which actually comes later.

525
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, one of the main techniques of

526
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: the read technique is stopping denials. But I didn't do it, Josh, listen,

527
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm telling you I was. But imagine my finger on

528
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: Chuck's lips right now. That's why you would never do that. Now,

529
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: you stopped the Niles because it creates a sense of hopelessness,

530
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: like the like, don't you feel hopeless with my fingers

531
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: on your lips? So hopeless you have no idea? Uh,

532
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: it makes you feel hopeless that you don't even have

533
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: the opportunity to to reason with this cop. You can't

534
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: defend yourself, not at all, so you have a sense

535
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: of hopelessness. Plus, the other upside if you're an interrogator

536
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: is that you're keeping the person from talking, meaning they

537
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: also can't ask for counsel. Then I don't see why

538
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: people don't just do that the first thing, over and

539
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: over say I need a lawyer, I need a lawyer,

540
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: I need a lawyer. I read this article in I

541
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: think this stranger aren't the oddest Seattle. I don't know.

542
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't a great article. It was kind of um.

543
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: It was just kind of misleading, like the author really

544
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: wanted you to to sympathize with the guy who was

545
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: guilty and really revealed that he really was pretty guilty

546
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: towards the end, but it had this this really great

547
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: explanation for why people don't ask for a lawyer in

548
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: this article. Yes, and I've seen it before, but this

549
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: article really got the point across that this guy was, like,

550
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: I mean, he'd done some stuff before, like I think

551
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: like he um, he was, he dabbled in drugs and

552
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: like ran an illegal like poker game and stuff like that,

553
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: like mouthfeasance. Yeah, and he so enough so that he

554
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: was like he knew he was technically guilty in the

555
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: eyes of the law, but not for this thing that

556
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: they wanted him on. Um, so he was he had

557
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: that guilt to begin with. And then these cops saying like,

558
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: you're gonna really look guilty if you if you ask

559
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: for a lawyer. That's one. And then the other aspect

560
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: was if you lawyer up, we can't help you. Oh yeah,

561
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: I've seen that one. If you talk to us, that's

562
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: the only way we can help you get out of

563
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: this jam. We want to get jam like we we

564
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: know we might we would have done the same thing

565
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: you did. Yeah, but the cops never want to get

566
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: you out of a jam. No, that's not what they're

567
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: trying to do, and so what they were saying was

568
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: like if you clam up this, like, who knows what's

569
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: going to happen to you. They were doing all sorts

570
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: of really effective psychological manipulation. And the guy they were

571
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: talking to was a lawyer's son. And this guy who

572
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: like forty years old, a lawyer's son, so he'd known

573
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: his whole life to ask for a lawyer. And even

574
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: this guy didn't immediately ask for a lawyer because these

575
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: cops got him. You know, I probably wouldn't either. Actually,

576
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: if I was if I was arrested today after work

577
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: and obviously completely innocent of anything, would that be mind blowing?

578
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: If that happened and I was completely innocent, I would.

579
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: I would at first My first instinct would probably be

580
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: like I need a lawyer and I didn't do anything, Yeah,

581
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: like why why curred that expense? Well, I think that's

582
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: another aspect of the initial um, initial consultation, that initial

583
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: discussion where it's like, oh, it's all friendly, we're talking

584
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: about the phillies. Why would you need a lawyer for that? Right,

585
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: I retract my statement, I get it now, but you

586
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: should stick to your original statement no matter what, Like

587
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: you have a right to counsel, and there's no reason

588
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: you should not invoke it. Your your punishment is not

589
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: going to be worse for asking for a lawyer. Yeah,

590
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: you should open up. You sound like one of those

591
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: legal commercials called Josh Clark. That reminds me we should

592
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: do and we should mention the A c l U

593
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: episode that was a pretty good in too. Yeah. Man,

594
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: this thing is just so many tangential podcasts. So the

595
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: stopping denials, that's a big part of the read technique.

596
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: And then, um, there's something that's similar that John Reid noticed,

597
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: but it is a little nuance. There's a difference, uh,

598
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: and that's objections to to to read. Denials were different

599
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: than object actions, and objections were something to be treated

600
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: differently as a result. Yeah, an objection that example they

601
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: gave here was like I would never rape somebody because

602
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: my sister was raped and it destroyed our family. Of

603
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: course I wouldn't do something like that, right. So to

604
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: a cop, that's not a denial. A denial is like

605
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: I didn't do that. I didn't do that that that's

606
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: not me. You got the wrong guy. Those are denials,

607
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: and the cop would try to stop you from completing

608
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: those sentences. That objection you just said is a denial,

609
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: but it's encapsulated with um, a reason, yeah, a justification,

610
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: something to it. Do you remember when you used to

611
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: take multiple choice tests in high school they always said

612
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: that if you don't know the answer, usually the one

613
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: with the most verbiage, the one with the most words,

614
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: is the right one. I never heard that's true. That

615
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: works out. It's not good at taking tests either. Well, no, wonder,

616
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: we need to get in the way back machine. You

617
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: can go take some more multiple test tests. Knowing that now,

618
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: But the the I think that's kind of the same

619
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: prem us for an objection. It's like, it's not just

620
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: a denial, it's there's more to it. And the fact

621
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: that somebody put that much more thought into it means

622
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: that there's something to that. So a cop will take

623
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: that and cultivate it and try to turn that around,

624
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: and they would say, we, I know you love your sister,

625
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: and you know you you stood by her while she

626
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: was raped, so of course this wouldn't be like a

627
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: recurring thing. This is just a one time thing that

628
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: you did and you were out of your head or whatever,

629
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: because you care about your sisters, so you would never

630
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: do this all the time or something. And so all

631
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're you're kind of like you're giving

632
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: the suspect like a something to latch onto, something for

633
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: them to to basically re enter society to an extent,

634
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: because at this moment, especially if they're guilty, they are

635
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: totally on the ounce with society, and the sole representative

636
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: of society and who's speaking with them right now is

637
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: the cop that's interrogated them, and everybody wants to be included,

638
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: and if you don't, then your associopath and they're gonna

639
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: get you anyway. They're well, yeah, but they're gonna have

640
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: a hard time through interrogation. So number five is getting

641
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: the suspects attention. Is I don't know these the real

642
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 1: titles or is this just the liberties of the author

643
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: of this article? I don't know what We'll call it

644
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: getting the suspects attention. And uh, this is when you

645
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: pretend to be the ally of the suspect um because

646
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: at this point they're probably looking for a way out,

647
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: and that's when you might go, hey, man, I get it.

648
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: If I call it my best friend having sex with

649
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: my wife, I'd kill him too. I understand where you're

650
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: coming from, and uh, maybe a little pad on the shoulder,

651
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: a little rub on, a little rub on the back,

652
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: or maybe a pad on the back and just some

653
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: reassurance like I get to where you're coming from. Man,

654
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: it could have could happen to any of us, and

655
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: you're in big trouble at that point. Yeah, and that's

656
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: probably going on like throughout. Yeah, and of themes run

657
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: These all overlap quite a bit. But if if there's

658
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: an objection that you've noticed that you're working, you've turned

659
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: around and you're working that objection with an extra layer

660
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: of compassion and commiseration. Uh, can I guess really kind

661
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: of start to ensnare the suspect a lot more. It's

662
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: weird because I'm I'm repulsed by a lot of this,

663
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 1: but I'm also very impressed by like what I've seen

664
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: on TV. What you can tell is someone who's really

665
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: good at it. Oh yeah, it's an effective it's like

666
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: an art form. There's UM. I believe something like eight

667
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: percent or seventies six percent of UM suspects who are

668
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: interrogated in this manner. When you take out people who

669
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: UM invoke their miranda rights, uh confess like it has

670
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: an enormous confession rate, and there's a lot of people

671
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: who the vast majority the study I saw or the

672
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: number I saw six of those confessions are from guilty people.

673
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: That something like point zero four percent are false confessions.

674
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: The problem is there's still such a thing as false confessions.

675
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: There's no safeguards. It's just it just so happens that,

676
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: like the false confessions are in that small of an amount. Yeah,

677
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 1: and that percentage isn't high. But if you think about

678
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: how many people are interrogated, that's like several hundred per

679
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: year in the US, up to several hundred per year.

680
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people. Yeah, And it's not like

681
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: that that those people just it gets found out at

682
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: trial or somewhere down the road that they're innocent. Like,

683
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: those people may spend the rest of their lives in jail.

684
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: At the worst case, they may be executed, which has

685
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: probably happened in the history of the US, although it

686
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: hasn't been um irrefutably proven yet. Yeah, and you can

687
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: listen to how the Innocence Project works. From June, we

688
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: interviewed Paula is On. Oh, yeah, that's right. I wish

689
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: i'd known a lot more about the Innocence Project back

690
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: when we did that episode, Like I kind of got

691
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: it and understood it. But just over the last few years, Um,

692
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: I've kind of I understand it even more. Yeah, I

693
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: wish I would have known better than It's still a

694
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: good episode. We talked to Paul Paul is on Yeah

695
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: she's a real pro. Yeah no it's not, is it? Okay,

696
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: that's how rumors get made. Well, I just liked her

697
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: like more after you said that. Oh yeah, yeah, I

698
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: love Steve's on. Um, all right, and back to the

699
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: red technique. At this point number six, the suspect might

700
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: lose resolve, And uh, this seemed really obvious to me.

701
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: If the suspect is has his shoulders hunched, or is

702
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: got his head in his hands, or is crying, then

703
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: you've got them just where you want them as an interrogator, right,

704
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: you were going to get your confession, whether it's a

705
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: false confession or not. That's not guaranteed by these outward signs. Again,

706
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: if you strip away the non terrible stuff from the

707
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: re technique, it's it's pretty pretty good stuff. And apparently

708
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: this is where you really want to regain their attention.

709
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: Like if they start crying, like forced them to look

710
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: you in the eye. Uh, because I guess that works.

711
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: That increases the stress level. Um. So remember we talked

712
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: about that theme development. It's like here, here's what happened,

713
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, and they object to that, and then you

714
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: take that objection, you turn it around and they start

715
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: to latch onto that theme couched in that objection. You

716
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: take that next, and as you're developing it, it becomes

717
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: one of two or more alternatives. But basically you're taking

718
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: the theme that the person latched onto and you're making

719
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 1: that the minimal um example. It's almost like a good

720
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: cop bad cop version of reasons why you did it? Exactly,

721
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: So it's it's, um, you you you shot that lady

722
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: in the back because she was a horrible person. Nobody

723
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: is going to think that you did it because you

724
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: just wanted the insurance money, exactly that anybody in your

725
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: position would have done this, And everyone's gonna understand this

726
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: is why you did it, not this horrible reason. This reason,

727
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: this reason society can live with. Maybe you'll go to

728
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: jail for a year, two, who knows, but when you

729
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: come out, everybody's gonna say, hey, that Bernie guy is okay,

730
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: I would have shot that old lady in the back too. Yeah. Uh,

731
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: it's not Hey, that Bernie guy needs to burn in

732
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: hell for the rest of his life because it killed

733
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: some poor old lady for her insurance money. You know.

734
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: So with the cops sitting there saying, here's what we're saying,

735
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: you're agreeing to. Here's this horrible interpretation that I can't control.

736
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: But this I've created and sculpted with your help. So

737
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: let's throw this horrible, big thing away and this thing

738
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem nearly as bad is what the press

739
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: will hear. I will start to put it on paper. Yeah,

740
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 1: but here's what you're not thinking about what you're doing,

741
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: is it's the same in both cases. If you're confessing

742
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: to a murderer and you are just at a point

743
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: to where you're you think, man, that sounds way better

744
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: in a newspaper than this other thing. And also it's

745
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: coming out of the mouth of this detective that is

746
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: um that is appearing to commiserate with you, that has

747
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: empathized with you, that maybe told you on the side

748
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: like hey, I hated that old lady too, and I'm

749
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: glad you did it the cop can totally say that

750
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: and and to win the trust of the suspect. So

751
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: all of these factors combine all of a sudden. You

752
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: have a story, you have a narrative, you're working out

753
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: with the cops. You may not even realize that that's

754
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: what's going on. And then the cops going to say,

755
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: I have a piece of paper and a pen here,

756
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: and I want you to write down what we just

757
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: talked about. I want you to write down your confession. Yeah, well,

758
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring someone else in there first, Well, there's

759
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: probably already someone else in there. They may bring a

760
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: third person, new person in there, uh, to try and

761
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: force them to retell their story, which they probably won't

762
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: want to do. Uh. And that's when you can introduce like, hey,

763
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: you don't want to tell the story again to this

764
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: new detective. I know you're tired, just here to take

765
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: the spend exactly, don't stab me with it. By this time,

766
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: the person will likely want to do just about anything

767
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: to get out of that room and from writing and

768
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: signing this this confession their salvation. On the other end,

769
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: there's a light at the end of the tunnel, even

770
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: if it's possibly jail Yeah, they can get out of

771
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: this room. They can get out of this horrible interrogation. Yeah.

772
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: They may promise like a hot meal, like something as

773
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: simple as that can can get someone to sign a

774
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: confession at the end of a long, long day. So

775
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: you've got the written confession, you haven't signed. Uh. They

776
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: probably have to sign an additional waiver that says I

777
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: didn't write this under coercion or else. They'll include that

778
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: in the confession, and you have basically what amounts to

779
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: a slam dunk conviction in court. And that is the

780
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: red technique. Uh. And we're gonna talk about some real

781
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: cases of interrogation right after this break, all right, Chuck.

782
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: So that's the red technique that your purpose super effective. Um,

783
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: and it has been used in plenty of cases. Like

784
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,919
Speaker 1: we said, the number that I saw was like point

785
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: zero per point zero four of confessions or false confessions, um,

786
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: which is extraordinarily small, which means that a lot of

787
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: truly bad guys get caught through the red the red technique, right. Um.

788
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: And there's this one in this article on how stuff works, um,

789
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: how police interrogation works, and it's with a woman named

790
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: Nicole Michelle Frederick it's between her and a detective named

791
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: Victor Lauria, and it takes place in Detroit in September

792
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: two thousand three, and um Nicole Michelle Frederick was the

793
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: step mom to a two year old daughter, and the

794
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: two year old daughter had shown up in the hospital,

795
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 1: I believe, unresponsive with bruises all over her body had

796
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: clearly been physically abused, and the step mom was saying,

797
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: she falls down a lot, like I don't think anybody

798
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: heard her, Like, she just gets bruised like that, and uh,

799
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: it certainly wasn't me. But not only was it not me,

800
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it was anybody. The little girl just

801
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: falls down, she does it to herself. And with that,

802
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: Detective Lauria took her to be blaming the victim that

803
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: she was trying to go free. By blaming this little

804
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: girl for being clumsy, momsy and difficult, yes, which a

805
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: detective can then latch onto is reprehensible as that sounds, uh,

806
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: by trying to get some empathy going like, hey, I

807
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: get it, you know, like this is a tough baby, yes,

808
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: and it's I'm sure it's trying, and it's very off

809
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: cult so all of a sudden, uh, detective Lauria has

810
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: has this I guess this theme, this justification that was

811
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: set up by the suspect, and he starts to play

812
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: it out. He's saying, like this, this girl, she was

813
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: a difficult baby. She's crying. You lose your head for

814
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: a minute and you get a little rough, and you know,

815
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: it could happen to anybody, and um uh ms. Frederick says, no,

816
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: that's not right at all. Nobody hurt this kid. I

817
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: don't understand why you don't believe me. You seem to

818
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: be not listening to me, which is from what I understand.

819
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: That's you're in the danger zone right there, and your

820
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: a derogation. If somebody's saying, if they're pressing back their

821
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: own reality on the you, the detective, you're not in

822
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: control right then they are, so uh. Laurias started to

823
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: look for another theme, and it was along the same lines,

824
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: but rather than losing your head for a minute, it

825
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: was a split second. Something happened in the flash of

826
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: him minute or flash of a second, and she perked

827
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: up a little. Yeah, she started to latch onto that one. Yeah.

828
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: So then he knew he had her, you know, in

829
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: a pretty tough spot and Um. She started nodding her head.

830
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: He sets up the alternative and said, you know what,

831
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: if you don't explain this thing, every he's gonna everyone's

832
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: gonna just assume that you're this awful, abusive person. Um.

833
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: I think people might understand more though, because everyone's been there.

834
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: If we paint, you know, if if it was just

835
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: a split second thing and he lost control, people are

836
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: going to get that. So those are the alternatives. All

837
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: of a sudden, and then it came uh, it came

838
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: out that the her daughter had had had brain damage,

839
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: it was likely not gonna die. And then all of

840
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: a sudden, the suspects started saying, oh I I they're

841
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: gonna get me for murder. Yeah. Well, he pointed out

842
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: to her, He's like, by the way, you haven't even

843
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: asked about the condition of your daughter. And she was like, no,

844
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: I haven't totally have and he's like, no, you really haven't,

845
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: and she's like, well how is she He's like, she's

846
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: not gonna make it, and that's when she goes, oh, no,

847
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be tried for murder. And she was and

848
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: found guilty. Um, she she confessed, I believe right, Yeah,

849
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 1: she admitted to shaking, shaking a baby and then said

850
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: out loud, I killed the little girl. I killed her

851
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: right So, Um, she was convicted of killing her two

852
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: year old stepdaughter. And last I saw, I found an

853
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: appeal in two thousand five that was denied. That was

854
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: the last I saw of her after her conviction. So

855
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: it does work, and Detective Lauria followed all of these steps,

856
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: um and got a bad guy in this case. Yeah,

857
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: and so a lot of times it goes down just

858
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: like it should. But it is super controversial, which we've

859
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: talked about some and you mentioned at the beginning. One

860
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: of the biggest problems is it's guilt presumptive. Is they

861
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 1: go in there thinking, all right, this person's the goal

862
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: of the of the interrogation is to get a confession,

863
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 1: not to find out whether or not someone did something.

864
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: In most in many cases, they go in there thinking

865
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: this person is guilty. And if you're going in there

866
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: thinking you're guilty, even if you don't mean to, you're

867
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: gonna start to filter out any reasons why they might

868
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: be innocent, even if they're good reasons and valid reasons.

869
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: And that ain't no good, No, it's not that's um.

870
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: That's well it's pretty huge flaw really, even if it

871
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: does result on only point zero four percent of false confessions. Yeah,

872
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: and you also mentioned that, Um, the whole purpose of

873
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: the interrogation is to make someone stressed and uncomfortable. And

874
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: then when you notice people behaving stressed and uncomfortable, that's

875
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: the presumption an indicator of guilt Supposedly, when it's like

876
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: you said, would you call a feedback loop, So you know,

877
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: I want to make you stressed and uncomfortable, you're being

878
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: stressed and uncomfortable, that means you're guilty. Yeah, it's an

879
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: odd you to approach things. It's coercion. Um. And then

880
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: there's also been a lot of people to point out

881
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: that a lot of these techniques are the same thing

882
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: that are used in brainwashing, which we did a show

883
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: on July two thousand nine, did a brainwashing show invading

884
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: a personal space, not allowing the person to speak, um,

885
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: using contrasting alternatives to have them come to uh, make

886
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: them feel like they're making a decision or that they

887
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: have a choice or some sort of power. I think

888
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: you brainwashed me in that episode two, right, Yeah, we

889
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: did a little role play. Yeah, it was awesome. Man,

890
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,439
Speaker 1: I turned you into a prep that was five years ago. Yeah,

891
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: and then um position and confession as a means of escape.

892
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was like the last step I think

893
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: before resolution was to say like just like denounce your

894
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: family or whatever and you will be saved or something.

895
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: Right in this case, it signed this thing and man,

896
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: you're gonna get that hot meal and that cigarette. I

897
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: promised you. The thing is is like we said, it's uh.

898
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: It does produce false confessions. And I saw somewhere that

899
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,959
Speaker 1: of people who have been exonerated with DNA evidence, UM

900
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: gave a false confession. So people go to jail for

901
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: years for this kind of thing. Well, here's a few

902
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: of the more famous cases. Peter Riley in nineteen seventy three.

903
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: It's an eighteen year old who is whose mother was murdered. UM,

904
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: I think no siblings and no father, so like the

905
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: only parent he'd ever known, And after eight hours of

906
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: interrogation by Connecticut police, he confessed to brutally murdering her.

907
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: Murdering her and UH was convicted on manslaughter based on

908
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: the confessional loan was no evidence, no motive. Medical findings

909
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: suggested that there were at least two attackers and UH

910
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: the town really got behind him, apparently, and like, so

911
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: this kid didn't do this, He's not that kind of guy.

912
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: And let's have bake sales and raise money. And Arthur Miller,

913
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: the famous playwright, lived in the town and he championed

914
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: it because he did a lot of work with a

915
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: c l U. And Um. Eventually new evidence came out

916
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: that exonerated him and he was set free after three

917
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: years in prison. Three years not too bad. It's better

918
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: than Earl Washington Jr. Who in nineteen eighty two he

919
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: was described as in police everybody, I'm using scare quotes here.

920
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: He was described by psychologists as mildly retarded. He had

921
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: an i Q of sixty nine, which is a whole

922
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: other kettle of fish that mean anything anyway, But um,

923
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 1: he confessed to raping and murdering a nineteen year old

924
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: woman under interrogation. He was convicted on the confessional loan

925
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: right just on the confession. A lot of these are,

926
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: and spent eighteen years in prison, some of them on

927
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: death row, and was apparently rescued from the um executioner

928
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: with like nine days to go. Yeah, But at the

929
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: same time, like, as a jury, what are you to

930
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: do when someone says I did this, you know, I

931
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: mean hopefully you don't know, maybe maybe add some other evidence.

932
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: I agree. The thing is is Earl Washington's UM thing.

933
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: He he was somebody else was caught doing it using DNA.

934
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: That's that's been a huge change to this kind of thing.

935
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: It's at least exonerated people like free and clear. But

936
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: that's that brings up another problem with false confessions. Not

937
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: only do innocent people go to jail, guilty people stay free,

938
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 1: and they accumulate more victims over time, you know, like, um,

939
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: how how how many more children would that that lady

940
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: in Detroit have abused if like she gotten off or something,

941
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: you know, I mean like the and the guy who

942
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: created UM the read technique actually had a false confession

943
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: and wrongful conviction under his belt, a guy. If you

944
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: read the article um the uh the interview in the

945
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: New Yorker, the first thing he talks about is this

946
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: guy in the fifties who was in jail for twenty

947
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: years for murdering his wife even though he didn't do it,

948
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: who was um interrogated by John Reid himself. Wow. Yeah,

949
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: So the guy who actually did do it went on

950
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: to rape pregnant women and UM commit all these other

951
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: horrible crimes that he wouldn't have he wouldn't have done

952
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: had he been caught the first time, or had the

953
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: cups still been looking for him. Wow. So yeah, it's

954
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: a huge point. I mean, like, it's not just innocent

955
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: people in prison, it's guilty people out still. Yeah, if

956
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: you really want to see uh this all firsthand, I

957
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: highly recommend the documentary from Ken burn Sarah Burns and

958
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: David McMahon, The Central Park Five. And this is the

959
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: famous story in of five young African American men who

960
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,280
Speaker 1: were set up the river for a rape in Central

961
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: Park and they did not do it. And uh, it's

962
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: a great documentary and it's it just summarizes how you

963
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: can get a false confession very nicely and it all

964
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: plays out and you see these interviews and get really

965
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: angry and uh, but that was definitely a case of UM,

966
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: sort of like with the Atlanta child murders. Like people

967
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: are scared to go into Central Park now and we've

968
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: got these five use who aren't so smart and they're poor,

969
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: and we can we think they did it and I

970
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: don't care what the evidence says. We need to finger

971
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: them for the crime and put them all over the

972
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: news so people will feel safe again. But they were

973
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 1: eventually exonerated thanks to DNA again. Um. And they spent

974
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: depending on which guy, between six years and twelve years

975
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: in prison. And really great documentary and I think it's

976
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: on Netflix. It is it is. Have you seen it? Yeah? Yeah,

977
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: that's a good one. Um. So chuck this. We've basically

978
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: been talking mostly about the Red technique, that there are alternatives.

979
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: There's some law enforcement agencies have lost faith in, um,

980
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: the red technique. Uh. And in Britain, apparently in there's

981
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of false confess since that came to light

982
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: and the British government said, we need to figure something

983
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: else out. So they created a Blue Ribbon task force

984
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,959
Speaker 1: and said, come up with an alternative to the re technique,

985
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: which ironically is a technique in the re technique. But

986
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: what they came up with was called peace, which this

987
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: is the worst acronym of all time, but preparation and planning,

988
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: engage and explain, account closure evaluate clearly spells peace. Yes, Um.

989
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: So they came up with it after a couple of years,

990
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: and by two thousand and one it was pretty widespread

991
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: but the peace technique is predicated on the idea that

992
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: you're not going after a confession. This technique, like you

993
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: as a an investigator an interrogator, you're going in to

994
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 1: just get the whole story out and as much detail

995
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: as possible, and you're not going after a confession. You're

996
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: not accusing the person of the crime, being polite and

997
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: you're here's another thing, and a lot of people think

998
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: that this will cure false confessions almost in and of itself,

999
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 1: videotaping the confession from beginning to end. And so what

1000
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: the cops do is they interview the the suspect. They say, well,

1001
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: what about this, here's a discrepancy, what about this? And

1002
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: they're not being accusatory, they're just putting everything out there

1003
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: and letting this person explain it in front of the

1004
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: video tape or in front of the video camera. And

1005
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: then the tape is shown to a jury and the

1006
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: jury apparently decides whether the person is lying or not. Yeah,

1007
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: And this is all built on the what I think

1008
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: is a pretty rock solid theory that it is really

1009
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: hard to lie and lie and lie and keep it

1010
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: all straight and keep it all and that that congruous

1011
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: line that's believable. At some point, if you keep talking

1012
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: and you're lying a bunch, you're gonna mess up. And

1013
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: that's what they prey on, especially if you've just spent

1014
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: the last eight hours like drinking cruddy coffee and eating

1015
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: a few ho hoes and being asked questions by interrogators,

1016
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: even if they're being polite like yeah, you're you're gonna

1017
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: have a really hard time keeping up with what you've

1018
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: already said. Yeah, Like you've got to be a real

1019
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: skilled sociopath to lie for hours and hours and hours. Uh,

1020
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: and then they'll bring him again and again. A week later,

1021
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: let's say, you know, let's have some more tea and

1022
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: let's sit down and talk and uh, a week later,

1023
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,919
Speaker 1: you might forget some of the things you said. And um,

1024
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: and the cops have the video and they're writing down

1025
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: all the details. Seems pretty solid to me. Yeah, so

1026
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: good on you, Brittain. And um, there are some people

1027
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: here in the US trying to teach it the cops here,

1028
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: but apparently it's just like word of mouth and the

1029
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: particular jurisdiction has to be down with it and support it,

1030
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: and it's just not super widespread here. Yeah. Well, I mean,

1031
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: the read technique isn't the force of law. It's just

1032
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: the gold standard. It's the one that everybody uses and there, like,

1033
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: I want to be like the cops on the shows. Well, yeah, exactly,

1034
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: I want to do the piece technique. Um, the in

1035
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: can it? I found a completely different technique too. It's

1036
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 1: called the Mr. Big technique. Have you heard of it?

1037
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: It's it's extremely involved. Basically, you the suspect, will meet

1038
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: an undercover cop who's posing as a criminal while you're

1039
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: out and about and free and easy or whatever, maybe

1040
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: while you're being booked whatever, and you guys are gonna

1041
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: become friends and over the course of the next several months,

1042
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: this undercover cop is going to gain your trust and

1043
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: get you to ultimately confess. That's just how little crime

1044
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: there is. They're like, so would you cut down your

1045
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: neighbors street? Right exactly? Like they can spend like three

1046
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: months on a single confession, you know. Yeah. But it's

1047
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,959
Speaker 1: called the Mr. Big technique, and it actually the reason

1048
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: it's called Mr biggess Uh. In its ideal form, you, um,

1049
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: the suspect are become like kind of criminal compatriots with

1050
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: this this undercover cop who then introduces you to Mr Big,

1051
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: this crime boss who wants you to step up to

1052
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 1: the next crime level. But it's gonna you to talk

1053
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: about this murder that you did or whatever, and then

1054
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: you confess it and you're being secretly taped and you

1055
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: don't know it, and you've just entrapped yourself. Man, I

1056
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: love Canada, Mr I might have to move there, man,

1057
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: yea A you're gonna stick around after a Toronto or

1058
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 1: Vancouver one country. So we said earlier we were gonna

1059
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: give some tips. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. Um.

1060
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: They seem a little silly, but they recommend you just

1061
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: don't talk. You don't talk, they said. Imagine the words

1062
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: I invoke my rights to remain silent painted on the

1063
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: wall and stare at them. Uh, ask for counsel, ask

1064
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: for a lawyer. And then the number five thing they

1065
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: say to do is cultivate hatred for your interrogator. Who

1066
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: who's that from Peace Help Beagle or something weird like that.

1067
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's for recommendations for animal rights activists who

1068
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: get arrested. So yeah, he seems kind of basic to me.

1069
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 1: It is, but I think it's one of those things

1070
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: where they can't easily go out the window when you're

1071
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: in that situation, you know. Yeah, and again, if you're

1072
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: in the United States and you invoke your right to council,

1073
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: that's that like the cops are they have to stop,

1074
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 1: and if they don't, that's a that's a big problem.

1075
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: I kind of perversely want to know how I would

1076
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: hold up. I know it's no laughing matter and I

1077
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't joke around about it, but I would like to

1078
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: be interrogated just to see. Uh so, Uh, I guess

1079
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: that's If you want to learn some more about UM

1080
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: police interrogation, check out this article police interrogation on how

1081
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,919
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. It's a good one UM and

1082
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: you can find that by using the search bar, of course.

1083
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: And since I said that, it's time for listener mail,

1084
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this Jittery Joe's Oh yeah coffee. Hey guys,

1085
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: So Paul as well my wife Catsy now are big

1086
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: fancy y'alls, and uh we've been listening for years. This

1087
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: summer we took a two month honeymoon to Southeast Asia.

1088
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: It was a blast. Your podcasts kept the sane. Thanks

1089
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: for that. You've sent you a postcard from uh Angkor

1090
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: Watt and Cambodia. Uh. It was bought there, written in Borneo,

1091
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: and mailed from Malaysia, so it was well traveled. Um. Anyway,

1092
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: we live in Athens and love to hear your stories

1093
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: about Athens. We actually live in five Points on the

1094
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: Shortcut road where Chuck told about his mystery creepy old

1095
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: Lady ghost story. I drive by there every day and

1096
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: I always keep an eye out for her. But my

1097
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: day jobs with Jittery Joe's Coffee Roasters, a local Athens institution,

1098
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: And um, he brought a huge box of coffee and

1099
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: shirts and hats and hand delivered it to the office.

1100
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 1: And uh, I think he was surprised to know that

1101
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: I remember when Jittery Joe's first opened, because he was like, oh, well,

1102
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,439
Speaker 1: that was before my time. I think he I didn't

1103
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: think I was as old as I was. But I

1104
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: remember Jittery Joe's opening up. It was a big deals,

1105
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: like the first kind of good indie coffee house in Athens.

1106
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know they were the first, but I'm not

1107
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: surprised the first one I remember at least. But he

1108
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: suggests the Sumatra Wahana. He said it's unlike any coffee

1109
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: I've ever had, people either love it or hate it.

1110
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: So um, that is from Mike Lord and you can

1111
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 1: just look up Jittery Joe's online. I'm sure you can

1112
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: order this stuff. Yeah, you definitely can. Thanks for the coffee, Mike,

1113
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: it's good. Yes, and thank you to your wife Cassidy

1114
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: for all the support. Uh. If you want to give

1115
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: Chuck and Eye free stuff, we are happy to accept it.

1116
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us to ask for

1117
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: our physical mailing address and we'll give it to you. Okay. Yeah,

1118
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: I have to say showing up at the office and

1119
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: announced was a little weird, but since you had a

1120
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: huge box of coffee, h it was all forgetting. Oh yeah,

1121
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: so your comparing gifts, it's like yeah, yeah, it's social lubricant. Yeah, gifts, sorry,

1122
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: especially good one. It's like Jittery Joe's coffee. You can

1123
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: get in touch with us via Twitter at s Y

1124
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com.

1125
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: So I Stuff you should Know. You can send us

1126
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: an email at stuff podcast at how Stuff Works dot

1127
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: com and as always joined us at home on the

1128
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: web Stuff you Should Know dot com for more on

1129
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works?

1130
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: Dot com h