Speaker 1: If we don't change on the inner level, then we
Speaker 1: can never change how the world occurs for us on
Speaker 1: the outside. We just keep recreating the same thing over
Speaker 1: and over. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time.
Speaker 1: Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
Speaker 1: quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is author,
Speaker 1: top twenty recording artist, and transformational speaker Justin Michael Williams,
Speaker 1: who is using music and meditation to wake up the world.
Speaker 1: With over a decade of teaching experience, Justin has become
Speaker 1: a pioneering voice of color for the new healing movement
Speaker 1: between his podcast Keynotes and motivational online platforms. Justin's teachings
Speaker 1: have now spread to more than forty countries around the globe.
Speaker 1: His new book is Stay Woke, A Meditation Guide for
Speaker 1: the Rest of Us. Hi, Justin, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, super excited to be here. Eric.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you on. Your book is called
Speaker 1: Stay Woke, A Meditation Guide for the Rest of Us,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really perfect timing for us to
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of things really around owned inner
Speaker 1: work and outer work. And so we'll get into all
Speaker 1: that in a moment, but let's start, like we always do,
Speaker 1: with a parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with
Speaker 1: his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. One is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery
Speaker 1: and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 1: grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: and he looks up at his grandfather and says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins. And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. It means so much. It
Speaker 1: means so much because you know, it's it's interesting. My
Speaker 1: work really intersects the context in which this fable even
Speaker 1: takes place in our minds and ultimately in our lives.
Speaker 1: And I think when we're talking about things like inner
Speaker 1: work or spiritual worker, any any of these kind of
Speaker 1: psychological work, are these other things that we're doing that's
Speaker 1: really holding the battle field for this war that's happening inside?
Speaker 1: And so I'm always really curious and intrigued to think
Speaker 1: about things like, well, okay, why do we even choose
Speaker 1: to feed the bad wolf in the first place? Or
Speaker 1: how comes sometimes the bad wolf steals the good wolf's food,
Speaker 1: and like, how can you be sure that you're you're
Speaker 1: actually even feeding the good wolf in the first place?
Speaker 1: And what do you do if you actually end up
Speaker 1: realizing that you spent so much of your life feeding
Speaker 1: the bad wolf when you thought you were feeding the
Speaker 1: good wolf? You know what I mean? And and this
Speaker 1: applies for us. I think, what's so fascinating what we're
Speaker 1: all learning in this time Eric is like, this applies
Speaker 1: on an individual level and on a collective level, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing this in the world play out in so
Speaker 1: many ways right now, because ultimately there's this unending war
Speaker 1: existing in our minds and it creates all this anxiety
Speaker 1: and stress, and there's the shadows and social justice issues
Speaker 1: and personal traumas and collective traumas that have to come up.
Speaker 1: And what I tell people who are like inner work
Speaker 1: and this stuff, who cares, it doesn't matter, I just
Speaker 1: need to be out there taking action and doing things.
Speaker 1: Is first of all, if we don't change on the
Speaker 1: inner level, then we can never change how the world
Speaker 1: occurs for us on the outside. We just keep recreating
Speaker 1: the same thing over and over. And secondly, the reason
Speaker 1: our individual work matters so much on the collective level
Speaker 1: is because a nation is just a collection of individuals, right,
Speaker 1: It's just like all we are. It's so like, how
Speaker 1: else can we change? And so anyways, when I think
Speaker 1: of this fable, and you know, I think of the
Speaker 1: metaphorical versions of like, you know what, if you've been
Speaker 1: feeding the wolf the whole time, the wrong wolf, and
Speaker 1: this it really intersects big questions that I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us ask like, you know, how do we
Speaker 1: step into our purpose? How do we overcome self sabotage?
Speaker 1: How do we deal with the inevitable ends idea and
Speaker 1: stress that comes from this war that's going to happen?
Speaker 1: And you know, what do we do when we fall
Speaker 1: off track? What do we do when we realize that
Speaker 1: we've been feeding the wrong wolf and we recognize that
Speaker 1: we need to course correct? How do we do that?
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big thing, that's even you know,
Speaker 1: the world's having a reckoning with right now. I totally
Speaker 1: agree you say very early in your book, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna read something you wrote. You say, and if you
Speaker 1: grew up like me overcoming systematic oppression, homophobia, sexism, depression, poverty,
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, community disempowerment, racism, and trauma, you need a
Speaker 1: different type of meditation, one that doesn't pretend the struggle
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. So first, say a little bit more about
Speaker 1: your background and what brought you to meditation. So I think,
Speaker 1: like probably many people listening to this, you know, I
Speaker 1: grew up with the classic case of what I call
Speaker 1: overachievers syndrome. And you know this, this how is for
Speaker 1: many reasons for different people, but for me, you know,
Speaker 1: I grew up in a home in the Bay Area,
Speaker 1: in northern California, UM, in a town called Pittsburgh, California,
Speaker 1: in a house with gunshot holes literally on the outside
Speaker 1: of my house, and domestic violence and trauma and addiction
Speaker 1: and abuse and and just so many different things that
Speaker 1: a lot of young people, especially young minority UM people
Speaker 1: of color, are facing today. And my adaptation to that,
Speaker 1: to being in the closet and having all this trauma,
Speaker 1: my adaptation was, I'm just gonna be really smart and
Speaker 1: get out of here. Like I'm just gonna be really
Speaker 1: smart and get and get out of you. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be really successful and get out of here. And and
Speaker 1: my school work was one of the things that I
Speaker 1: was the only things that I was validated for. I
Speaker 1: got bullied and teased a lot at school for being
Speaker 1: too feminine or being different, and then all the stuff
Speaker 1: happening at home. So I just zeroed in on if
Speaker 1: I can accomplish, if I can achieve that, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: make it quote unquote, I'm putting air quotes here with
Speaker 1: make it, you know. And I did everything. I checked
Speaker 1: every box there was to check I graduated at the
Speaker 1: top of my class, got a full ride scholarship to
Speaker 1: go to u c l A. I'm out of the closet,
Speaker 1: go from living in the hood to living in Westwood,
Speaker 1: which is like a boogie neighborhood in Los Angeles for
Speaker 1: anybody's ever been. And I have extra money for the
Speaker 1: first time because I got all these scholarships because I
Speaker 1: was the top of my class. And what happened was,
Speaker 1: after about a year at school, I sat down and
Speaker 1: I had this moment and I said, hold on, I
Speaker 1: did everything, I checked every box, and I'm still miserable.
Speaker 1: Why am I still miserable? And I think we all
Speaker 1: have these moments in our lives where we've tried to
Speaker 1: change our relationships, our jobs, our house are this are
Speaker 1: that we try to change everything from the external, hoping
Speaker 1: that it's going to change something within. But that's not
Speaker 1: how it works. I mean, we have to learn that
Speaker 1: lesson over and over. You know. This is why I
Speaker 1: laugh with with some of the people that I work
Speaker 1: with and say, this is how you can get out
Speaker 1: of a relationship with somebody and then get into a
Speaker 1: new relationship and three months later realized you're in the
Speaker 1: same relationship, but with a different person because the change
Speaker 1: hasn't happened internally. And so for me, I went to
Speaker 1: a mentor and I was in a really dark place. Um,
Speaker 1: I had an eating disorder. I would just had so
Speaker 1: much anxiety, feeling like I don't know what to do
Speaker 1: with my life. And one of my mentors gave me
Speaker 1: this lesson and said you should try meditation. And I literally,
Speaker 1: at that moment eric my response, so mind you, this
Speaker 1: is over a decade ago. Oprah hadn't done any meditation challenge, Like,
Speaker 1: I didn't know any person of color that I knew
Speaker 1: meditating And I literally go, meta, what what is that?
Speaker 1: Like this response, I'm not doing that shit, you know.
Speaker 1: And fast forward, you know, I end up meeting this
Speaker 1: incredible teacher named Moauren Roach, who's been you know, a
Speaker 1: teacher in the West for a good forty years. He
Speaker 1: took me under his wing and I trained very closely
Speaker 1: in apprentice with him. And fast forward and here I
Speaker 1: am with a book. And if you would have told
Speaker 1: me that you know, fifteen years ago, that I'd have
Speaker 1: a meditation book, I would have said, you're lying, give
Speaker 1: me my money back. But here we are, right and
Speaker 1: so one of the things that I want to spend
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes on it, and you alluded to
Speaker 1: it in the response to the parable, is this idea
Speaker 1: of inner versus outer work, And you just even alluded
Speaker 1: to it in your answer right there, because what you
Speaker 1: said was, Hey, I was really focused on if I
Speaker 1: just changed things on the outside, if I just get
Speaker 1: out of this bad neighborhood, away from this problematic family,
Speaker 1: if I get away from bullying, if I have more money,
Speaker 1: I'll be happier. Right. So there's internal versus external work
Speaker 1: on the individual level, right, And then there's the more
Speaker 1: broad societal level, which says, Okay, how much time do
Speaker 1: I need to spend meditating versus being out on the
Speaker 1: streets or you know, advocating for political campaigns or community organizing,
Speaker 1: And and I think that finding the right balance of
Speaker 1: those things on both those levels I find to be
Speaker 1: um really challenging but really important work. Like it's not
Speaker 1: enough just on a personal level for me to be like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll just change my reaction to everything, because there's some
Speaker 1: things in my life I should go about changing. Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I was in a job I didn't like so much,
Speaker 1: so I could change that, but without the internal work
Speaker 1: and then the same thing at a societal level. Right,
Speaker 1: it's not enough for me to just become happier, at
Speaker 1: least seems to me. Right, there's a role to play
Speaker 1: in a in a greater transformation. So when you think
Speaker 1: about balancing those things in your life, how do you
Speaker 1: think about it. I'm so glad you asked this question
Speaker 1: because I recently posted a video on my Instagram talking
Speaker 1: about this. Because the work that's happening on the external
Speaker 1: is absolutely important and essential, the making noise, the protesting,
Speaker 1: the dismantling, the systems that changing at all. And what
Speaker 1: I know for sure is that if we haven't done
Speaker 1: the internal work to match it, we could elect ten
Speaker 1: new presidents, we could change the police department, we can
Speaker 1: do all the things that we want to do in
Speaker 1: the world, but we'll just end up rebuilding the same
Speaker 1: system that looks slightly different if we haven't done the
Speaker 1: internal work. And so what I encourage everyone to do is, yes,
Speaker 1: do the external work. If you're in an unhappy place,
Speaker 1: if you're in an unhappy relationship, if you're in an
Speaker 1: unhappy life, and if our world is having things that
Speaker 1: are in disase. Then we have to of course address
Speaker 1: those things externally. And I think one of the things
Speaker 1: we're learning in the world right now with gender and
Speaker 1: beyond is this idea that things aren't as binary as
Speaker 1: we've made them right, and this idea of I can
Speaker 1: only do the external, I can only do the internal.
Speaker 1: What's happening right now is you need to be doing
Speaker 1: both and recognizing that they're affecting one another. The way
Speaker 1: your world is occurring and the way your environment is
Speaker 1: is affecting the ability for you to do internal work.
Speaker 1: So for example, if you're growing up with trauma, like
Speaker 1: I said, and oppression, and you're in an abusive, toxic
Speaker 1: relationship or in a really bad job, that's going to
Speaker 1: affect your internal landscape. We know that. And then at
Speaker 1: the same time, if you're doing the internal work and
Speaker 1: the emotional healing, or the social justice work, or the
Speaker 1: dismantling white supremacy or the different things that are happening within,
Speaker 1: then that's going to change how the world occurs outside
Speaker 1: of you. So it's this feedback loop. And so when
Speaker 1: you ask me specifically the question Eric around what's the balance,
Speaker 1: I think the way that I find balance with it
Speaker 1: is to drop the word balance and recognize that you
Speaker 1: have to be doing both at the same time. And
Speaker 1: it's the same work. I've let go of thinking that
Speaker 1: when I'm meditating, that has no impact on It's a
Speaker 1: part of my social justice work is my meditation. It's
Speaker 1: a part of my creativity. It's a part of my
Speaker 1: productivity is me taking that time to do the internal
Speaker 1: work that I need to do, and whether that's meditating
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, Like I tell people this all
Speaker 1: the time. I actually I almost said this in the book.
Speaker 1: My publisher made me take this out, like I actually
Speaker 1: don't care about meditation. I know that shocking for somebody
Speaker 1: who has a book about meditation, who's been teaching it
Speaker 1: for almost a decade. The only reason I teach meditation
Speaker 1: at all is because of everything that I've done and
Speaker 1: everything that I've tried, and I've tried if you can
Speaker 1: name a healing modality, I've tried it. Meditation has been
Speaker 1: the thing, hands down that is grounded it into my
Speaker 1: life and helped me day after day after day to
Speaker 1: go back to your parable to make sure that I'm
Speaker 1: feeding the right wolf. It's been that check in marker
Speaker 1: for me and That's why I teach it to other people,
Speaker 1: because it has made the biggest impact on my life
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I love that idea that when we're
Speaker 1: doing either inner work or outer work, if we're doing
Speaker 1: it in the right. I don't know if the word
Speaker 1: I would use as spirit or uh, perspective text maybe context,
Speaker 1: that it's both, it's both right and and and right.
Speaker 1: I think that there. I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: who and I've interviewed a good number of them, who
Speaker 1: will say, yeah, outer work is important, and by that
Speaker 1: I mean societal outer work. But what what their life
Speaker 1: seems to reflect is just a constant sort of inner
Speaker 1: focus on meditation. And the idea is that, well, I've
Speaker 1: got to get the inner vessel right before i can
Speaker 1: take it into the outer world. And I don't agree
Speaker 1: with that, but I love that idea that it's both
Speaker 1: and and balance is balance is a is a tricky word.
Speaker 1: Early on in the show, I asked a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, is it this or is it that? Questions,
Speaker 1: and and after a while I realized, well, the answer
Speaker 1: to all those questions was always both. You said something
Speaker 1: in the book that really stood out to me, and
Speaker 1: it it is similar to what we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: You said your thoughts don't create your reality. I repeat,
Speaker 1: your thoughts do not create your reality. The true reality
Speaker 1: is some of your trauma was never your fault to
Speaker 1: begin with and overcoming and is not just a matter
Speaker 1: of thinking your way through it. Your thoughts don't create
Speaker 1: your reality. When you live in the South Bronx and
Speaker 1: suffer from the highest levels of asthma in the United States,
Speaker 1: affecting your health and well being for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life, and you go on in that way with
Speaker 1: a few other examples of that, you say, your thoughts
Speaker 1: influence your reality, but they don't create it. Reality is
Speaker 1: co created among all of us, in both thoughts and actions. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just feel it in my heart as you're saying
Speaker 1: that line, because it anchors into so well what you
Speaker 1: just said. I respectfully disagree strongly with the fact that
Speaker 1: the internal work is all that matters, because I think
Speaker 1: what happens and when I you know, when I first
Speaker 1: read the you know, the Good Wolf and the Bad Wolf,
Speaker 1: I was really meditating on it and thinking what do
Speaker 1: I really feel about this? And one of the first
Speaker 1: things that I felt was that what a lot of
Speaker 1: people try to do especially when they're trying to do
Speaker 1: personal growth, listening to podcasts, reading books, doing you know,
Speaker 1: keeping your mind right is to just focus on the
Speaker 1: good wolf. And if we're only focusing on the good wolf,
Speaker 1: this can give us a tendency to spiritually bypass the
Speaker 1: things that are happening in the background of our lives
Speaker 1: that need our attention, our love and support. And so
Speaker 1: what happens in the personal growth community so often and
Speaker 1: this is shifting and changing. But like, yes, it's amazing
Speaker 1: and good that we're sending love and light and compassion.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that we're sitting and getting grounded and getting clear.
Speaker 1: But what all of these practices are about, what what
Speaker 1: I think everybody can agree upon across traditions, is that
Speaker 1: these practices are about building awareness. And if we're really
Speaker 1: being aware, awareness is calling us to get our asses
Speaker 1: off of our meditation cushions and take action for ourselves,
Speaker 1: for our families, our community, for the planet, for the world,
Speaker 1: and for people who can't take action for themselves. And
Speaker 1: this isn't a martyrdom like I'm going to save the
Speaker 1: world thing. It's like we have to take this personal
Speaker 1: growth in our work that we're doing and live it
Speaker 1: into our lives. Otherwise it's just a concept. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It's really just wasteful. You know, I don't teach meditation
Speaker 1: or even care about meditation for the reason of quote
Speaker 1: unquote relaxing. Sure, that'll be automatic. Sometimes the real reason
Speaker 1: that we meditate is to become more alive, to become
Speaker 1: more alive, to become more connected to our passions. Our
Speaker 1: emotions are feelings, the things we care about, and the
Speaker 1: causes we believe in. And so when we approach the
Speaker 1: practice that way and not at this thing to like disconnect,
Speaker 1: but a way to reconnect, then we can't help but
Speaker 1: get up and act. And and that's why I say,
Speaker 1: your thoughts don't create, they don't they influence, But what
Speaker 1: creates the world is our actions. And so we have
Speaker 1: to address both of those things. Right. I love that.
Speaker 1: And in your recent Instagram post you talked about this idea.
Speaker 1: You said, Hey, you know, if we only change the
Speaker 1: outside world, then we're missing the fact that we have
Speaker 1: to decolonize our own minds. Right. I couldn't agree with
Speaker 1: you more that I think that it's it's both these things.
Speaker 1: I see people who all they focus on is changing
Speaker 1: the external circumstances of people's lives or their own life,
Speaker 1: and we're sort of recirculating here, but this, I think
Speaker 1: this point is so important, or they only focus on
Speaker 1: changing the internal you know, I've I've had people on
Speaker 1: this show and I've I've had a little bit of
Speaker 1: disagreements with them, although on the show I don't really
Speaker 1: it's not I don't. I don't make a point of
Speaker 1: getting on here and arguing with people. But there's this
Speaker 1: sense that if you just thought right about everything, everything
Speaker 1: would be okay. And to your point, use the example
Speaker 1: about um, you know, if you live in the South
Speaker 1: Bronx and have asthma, or you know, you use another
Speaker 1: example of a little girl who's molested by your stepfather
Speaker 1: before the age of six. Right, this stuff, it's real.
Speaker 1: It has an impact. You can't just think your way
Speaker 1: out of that, right, it's and we should create a
Speaker 1: world where there's less of that. And yet to say,
Speaker 1: if we if our thoughts and our internal states don't
Speaker 1: have a role, then there's no healing from the bad
Speaker 1: things that happened to us. So it's really both those things.
Speaker 1: It's finding back to that idea of finding how do
Speaker 1: I do both those things, because my thoughts do matter.
Speaker 1: I love the way you said it that they co create.
Speaker 1: They co create our reality. Right what's happening to me
Speaker 1: is a combination of what's actually happening and how I
Speaker 1: choose to view it. Those two things come together to
Speaker 1: create what reality is. How many ideas have you had
Speaker 1: that you've sat and thought about for months or years
Speaker 1: and not done anything about it, and how did that
Speaker 1: impact your actual life in the world. Nothing. If you
Speaker 1: have a book idea that you've been thinking about for
Speaker 1: three years and you haven't written the book, the world
Speaker 1: doesn't have the book. It's in your head, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so, but the taking the action
Speaker 1: and bringing it into the world world is now how
Speaker 1: the world gets influenced, which creates a loop and then
Speaker 1: changes your reality and changes the thoughts and so you know,
Speaker 1: just it's very simple when we think about it, and um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just feel that it's a balance of both and
Speaker 1: action right now is really what we're needing more of
Speaker 1: from people who have been doing this conscious spiritual personal
Speaker 1: growth work. That's a great way to say it. This
Speaker 1: is a question that feels uncomfortably direct to ask, but
Speaker 1: I'm just going to ask it anyway, which is that
Speaker 1: as somebody who has as you've said, you're gay, so
Speaker 1: you've got that. You know, you're oppressed in that way.
Speaker 1: You're black, so you're oppressed in that way. Right, you
Speaker 1: grew up poor. It's another issue, right, is it possible
Speaker 1: for you to have all those things sort of quote
Speaker 1: unquote going against you and for you to still live
Speaker 1: a happy and wonderful life. Thank you. No one has
Speaker 1: ever asked me that question is directly as you just did.
Speaker 1: And the answer that I'm going to give you is absolutely.
Speaker 1: And it takes a lot more work. Absolutely, And it
Speaker 1: takes a lot more work. And this is where the
Speaker 1: inequity happens, and this is where the challenges happened. I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you an example of just, you know,
Speaker 1: talking about happiness. And this is something I think that
Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners will get something out of.
Speaker 1: So when my book came out, I was invited to
Speaker 1: go speak at Google in the Bay Area. It was
Speaker 1: my first huge talk. Right after the book came out
Speaker 1: and I was getting ready to go on my tour,
Speaker 1: and I went up north to Gernville to wine Country,
Speaker 1: and I rented a home all for myself that was
Speaker 1: like often this secluded area with the jacuzzi and all
Speaker 1: this stuff that I was going to stay in for
Speaker 1: three days to just treat myself alone before I start
Speaker 1: the tour. And I drive up. And this is regardless
Speaker 1: of anybody's political beliefs. I'm just saying what my experiences.
Speaker 1: So I drive up. It's nine pm. I've been driving
Speaker 1: all day. I have a hoodie on, some sweats because
Speaker 1: I've been driving for like six hours. And I pull
Speaker 1: out and the house across the street, which is the
Speaker 1: only house anywhere in sight, has this huge Confederate flag
Speaker 1: hanging off of it and a huge sticker that says
Speaker 1: make America Great Again. And I immediately went from happiness
Speaker 1: and excitement to complete fight or flight. And who am
Speaker 1: I now, this black man in a hoodie at night
Speaker 1: alone walking up to this gorgeous home with these people
Speaker 1: that have this Confederate flag across the street. I'm going
Speaker 1: into the jacuzi at night by myself. What if they
Speaker 1: called the police? What if this would like just completely
Speaker 1: lost in the in the thought of all of it.
Speaker 1: And I had to call one of my mentors and like,
Speaker 1: calm myself down. I didn't end up going outside that night.
Speaker 1: I changed my clothes before I got out of the
Speaker 1: car to make sure I was wearing something brighter so
Speaker 1: I didn't look like a quote unquote burglar. And the
Speaker 1: next morning, even though I didn't want to read, I
Speaker 1: got and sat out on the porch and read a
Speaker 1: book so that I can make sure that these people
Speaker 1: across the street saw that I was a nice black person.
Speaker 1: And so I want everybody to know for people out
Speaker 1: there who have black friends and family members and other
Speaker 1: people of color who are doing things, this is regular.
Speaker 1: What I'm sharing with you is not an unusual experience.
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm telling you this story is when
Speaker 1: it comes to the concept of privilege in particular, a
Speaker 1: lot of people have a tough time with this because
Speaker 1: they're like, well, I'm not privileged. I'm white, but I'm
Speaker 1: not privileged I grew up poor, or I'm not privileged
Speaker 1: because I'm also gay. Like, first of all, privilege is
Speaker 1: not about what you've gone through. It's about what you
Speaker 1: haven't had to go through. That is the way that
Speaker 1: we think about privilege. This is not the oppression Olympics,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't deny any of your trauma. But what
Speaker 1: it says is there things that you haven't had to
Speaker 1: go through that other people have to face. And as
Speaker 1: it relates to people who I'll just say right now,
Speaker 1: because this is very present in the world, are African American.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how much I accomplish, what school I
Speaker 1: go to, how much money I make, what carm driving,
Speaker 1: or how many degrees I have. When I am driving
Speaker 1: in an area in a hoodie, and if I get
Speaker 1: pulled over by the police, they see me as a threat,
Speaker 1: as a part of the collective. And so all of
Speaker 1: these different ways that people of all kinds, gay, black,
Speaker 1: or Jewish, whatever, these are all things that we have
Speaker 1: to succeed in spite of that sometimes other people don't
Speaker 1: have to face. And the last thing, just to tie
Speaker 1: this in Eric is the idea that your thoughts create
Speaker 1: your reality. One of the things that I say in
Speaker 1: the book, and I say often when I speak at companies,
Speaker 1: is that's a very privileged thing to say that you
Speaker 1: can just think something and then create it. That's not
Speaker 1: the way that people who have grown up marginalized experience
Speaker 1: the world. Because if I'm a woman whose husband gets
Speaker 1: shot by the police in the car whose thoughts created that,
Speaker 1: you know, So anyways, I can go on and on
Speaker 1: as you can tell about this. I'm really passionate about this,
Speaker 1: but I think we can live happy lives. And what
Speaker 1: we have to do is we have to again decolonize
Speaker 1: the oppression that is within us, because we end up
Speaker 1: oppressing our own selves, and we have to do the
Speaker 1: external work to de colonize the structures that are holding
Speaker 1: people back from living in the greatness and the dignity
Speaker 1: that is their birthright. H You do exercise in the
Speaker 1: book that I've seen done in some other places too.
Speaker 1: I've heard it referred to as a privilege walk or
Speaker 1: different things, but it's basically an exercise where you ask
Speaker 1: a series of questions like, well, if you are black,
Speaker 1: take one step back right, if you're gay, take another
Speaker 1: step back right, if you grew up poor, take another
Speaker 1: step and there are certain things that cause you to
Speaker 1: take step forwards. And what I love about the exercise
Speaker 1: is that it breaks this down from privilege only being
Speaker 1: white privilege versus black privilege. Right. It shows that privilege
Speaker 1: happens on lots of different levels, you know, and and
Speaker 1: for me, as a straight white male, right, I kind
Speaker 1: of have the demographic lottery. You know, I want the
Speaker 1: demographic lottery. Right in that way, I just did write
Speaker 1: my privilege story, or the story that tells me that
Speaker 1: privilege is real is the fact that I'm making this
Speaker 1: podcast and not in jail. Because when I was a
Speaker 1: young man, I was arrested for a number of felonies
Speaker 1: and should have gone to jail by by all rights,
Speaker 1: had I been a black man, I would have gone
Speaker 1: to jail for a good number of years. Being a
Speaker 1: white suburban man, I didn't. I was given options. I
Speaker 1: was given options, and they're the right options to give
Speaker 1: to somebody who's the first time offender like I am.
Speaker 1: They're the right thing to do, but they were extended
Speaker 1: to me because of those things. Right. But then you
Speaker 1: look at other things and you go, well, if you
Speaker 1: have mental health issues, take a step backwards, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: so these things have privileged They don't line up exactly,
Speaker 1: but it's a real way of looking at in life
Speaker 1: and going, boy, I personally have been incredibly fortunate. The
Speaker 1: reason I asked you that question so directly is that
Speaker 1: because I think it's important that whatever the type of
Speaker 1: oppression they've had, right and again, that oppression might hit
Speaker 1: six out of six, You get six out of six, right,
Speaker 1: You might get one out of six. Right. It might
Speaker 1: be that you were, you know, sexually assaulted as a child,
Speaker 1: and that if we're waiting for the outside world all
Speaker 1: get right, we, like you said, oppress ourselves. And it's
Speaker 1: also not as simple as to just say, well, it's
Speaker 1: just your thoughts, just figure it out, right. I love
Speaker 1: the way you said that, yes we can, but it's harder,
Speaker 1: it's more work. And I think that's a really succinct answer,
Speaker 1: Thank you. And you know, I want to be very
Speaker 1: clear about the privileged conversation because I think it's an
Speaker 1: important one that we're all getting into. Is um, no
Speaker 1: one is denying the fact that we've all gone through
Speaker 1: hardship in our lives, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: I think the thing that's hard sometimes for people to understand,
Speaker 1: particularly because the conversation in the world right now is
Speaker 1: so heavy around Black lives matter and white privilege, is like,
Speaker 1: we're specifically looking at solving the issue of racial inequality,
Speaker 1: and so to look at solving that issue, we have
Speaker 1: to look at a specific kind of privilege, which is
Speaker 1: white privilege. Yes, not saying that other privileges don't exist.
Speaker 1: But the interesting thing about white privilege that I tell
Speaker 1: people to consider is all the other privileges, gay, poor, trauma, like,
Speaker 1: they can all happen within the context of being black.
Speaker 1: And so you could have all those other things. You
Speaker 1: could be Jewish, gay, poor, and and still black. And
Speaker 1: so even if you overcame all the other ones, you
Speaker 1: still have to face the racism, you know. And so
Speaker 1: I think that's the reason why this is such a
Speaker 1: big one, because it's a it's a big context in
Speaker 1: which the world that we're living in right now is occurring. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And the other thing I love about your answer is that,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I see used
Speaker 1: as a criticism of the fact that racism exists and
Speaker 1: is still a problem is people will say, but look,
Speaker 1: there are black people who have overcome Look at Oprah, right,
Speaker 1: Look at like, if if work hard enough, I love
Speaker 1: the way you put it, you just go, yeah, if
Speaker 1: you work hard enough, maybe even then you can't write.
Speaker 1: But I think that we have this tendency to pull
Speaker 1: out the people who have overcome oppression and don't appear
Speaker 1: to be and go, well, look, if you want it
Speaker 1: bad enough, you just work hard like everybody else does.
Speaker 1: And I think it misses the point. And I love
Speaker 1: the way that that exercise, the way you describe in
Speaker 1: the book people Actually it's done in person, and they're
Speaker 1: standing on a line, right, and you take a step backwards,
Speaker 1: and you take a step backwards, and you take a
Speaker 1: step backwards. So for me, if I'm starting at the
Speaker 1: starting line and you're starting fifteen yards behind me, you
Speaker 1: might pass me, but you had a lot further to
Speaker 1: run to do it. You know a lot of people
Speaker 1: say this to me all the time I and I
Speaker 1: know people are well meaning, and this is this is
Speaker 1: the thing. I have so much compassion and so much
Speaker 1: love for all the people of all colors, especially people
Speaker 1: who are white, who are waking up to this movement
Speaker 1: and willing to get into the messiness of the conversation
Speaker 1: and question things. It's like, let's do this. We've never
Speaker 1: had the opportunity in the world to have these kind
Speaker 1: of conversations together. And this is one that I hear
Speaker 1: all the time. Like you said, the criticism of well
Speaker 1: you made it, Oprah made it, this person made it,
Speaker 1: then that must mean everybody else can, like you said,
Speaker 1: And the thing is is I didn't make it because
Speaker 1: racism doesn't exist. I made it in spite of it.
Speaker 1: And the fact that you could even point to us
Speaker 1: and count all five like it shows the problem. And
Speaker 1: number three is from the outside looking in, it appears
Speaker 1: as though we've made it and have had no many issues.
Speaker 1: I experienced racism all the time, in small and big ways.
Speaker 1: So did Oprah Oh Barack Obama highest office in our country,
Speaker 1: still asking for his birth certificate. It's not like because
Speaker 1: we've accomplished and made money that we've overcome racism. The
Speaker 1: money is not the marker. You know. It's the hard
Speaker 1: thing for people to understand, is it's not just about
Speaker 1: the money. Well, and the story that you told there
Speaker 1: is so powerful in that regard because you had the money, yeah,
Speaker 1: to go to this place, to this house, you know,
Speaker 1: and yet still right still there. It was right and
Speaker 1: and you know, I would have pulled up to that
Speaker 1: house across the street and had a negative reaction to
Speaker 1: what I was seeing across the street. But I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been afraid. I wouldn't have been worried. I just
Speaker 1: have been irritated. I just have been like, Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: I like something else you said on your social media
Speaker 1: the other day. Because as a white person who is
Speaker 1: trying to wake up, albeit slowly probably, I often say
Speaker 1: I've got a twenty two year old son now who's
Speaker 1: helped educate me a lot. You know, he's been very
Speaker 1: into social justice issues. But you said something that I
Speaker 1: thought was really important, and you said it's important as
Speaker 1: more and more people enter into this conversation that we
Speaker 1: call people forward versus calling people out. I think this
Speaker 1: is important, So say a little bit more about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so God with cancel culture, you know, like a big
Speaker 1: thing right now and everything happening what I keep seeing.
Speaker 1: I have so many people of all different colors, ethnicities, genders,
Speaker 1: and backgrounds in my community, and I think that we
Speaker 1: have two approaches that we can take to this moment
Speaker 1: in history. One approach is the approach that I see
Speaker 1: a lot of people taking, is well, you should have
Speaker 1: known this sooner. Why didn't you know this already? You
Speaker 1: should be doing this, And that's one approach. The other
Speaker 1: approach for me is if what we actually want, if
Speaker 1: what the desire for us is to really create a
Speaker 1: world where racism is not an issue, but not just that,
Speaker 1: where equality is the standard. Then we're going to have
Speaker 1: to yes, do our individual work in our own communities,
Speaker 1: but we're going to have to create a safe space,
Speaker 1: or even a brave space, like one of my community
Speaker 1: members called it, where we have permission to have these
Speaker 1: conversations together, knowing they're going to be messy, and also
Speaker 1: knowing that we're going to have to grow in it
Speaker 1: and in that. What I feel with calling people forward
Speaker 1: versus calling people out is when you're calling someone out,
Speaker 1: it can be defensive and dragging and aggressive and cutting.
Speaker 1: When you're calling people forward, you're speaking to that place
Speaker 1: in them that knows that they can do better, that
Speaker 1: knows that there's more possible. And it's a completely different
Speaker 1: place to come from. And it comes without sounding to
Speaker 1: woo woo here like it comes from a place of
Speaker 1: love of what do we want? We want a quality
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that we take like people being
Speaker 1: purposefully hurtful or people saying, you know, terribly ignorant things.
Speaker 1: But look, we couldn't have had this conversation sooner. This
Speaker 1: is the first generation where we can have these conversations together,
Speaker 1: where there's books that we can rely on to educate
Speaker 1: ourselves on these things. The first ten years where this
Speaker 1: stuff is even exists. So let's get into it. But
Speaker 1: let's give each other permission to be a little bit
Speaker 1: messy and also permission to learn and grow when you
Speaker 1: don't have it all quite right. Just yet. I agree completely.
Speaker 1: I see cancel culture, right, I see both sides of this.
Speaker 1: What I see is I see people of color saying like,
Speaker 1: I don't have time, energy or whatever to educate you folks, right,
Speaker 1: it's not my job. I've done enough work. I got
Speaker 1: my own things to carry, like they're being legitimate and
Speaker 1: real anger there, right. And then I see well intentioned
Speaker 1: white people and and I've been in this camp before
Speaker 1: where I go cheez, I sort of stuck my head
Speaker 1: up a little bit to say something. I didn't say
Speaker 1: it right, and I felt like I got my head
Speaker 1: cut off. So I'm just gonna duck back down under here.
Speaker 1: And I understand that being white fragility, right, Like I
Speaker 1: need to go. You know what if I believe in
Speaker 1: something and something that's important, So what if somebody says
Speaker 1: something to me or calls me like, I gotta have
Speaker 1: the courage of my conviction to stand up, right, But
Speaker 1: I always think that it's always helpful when people if
Speaker 1: you if you want to all is two sides of
Speaker 1: an issue, and I don't think it really is. But
Speaker 1: just for the purposes of this, we'll use that for
Speaker 1: people to say, let's let's just all take if we
Speaker 1: can a step towards each other. Right, And and somebody
Speaker 1: said something online I just saw not too long before
Speaker 1: this conversation I thought was really useful, and it said,
Speaker 1: if you really want somebody to make a change for
Speaker 1: the long term, shame never works ever. And I thought
Speaker 1: that's brilliant, because if what we really want is change,
Speaker 1: not just venting our anger or our emotions, but what
Speaker 1: we really want is change, we're not going to shame
Speaker 1: people into long term change. What struck me so much
Speaker 1: was your idea of calling people forward, right, Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can point out what you said if what you
Speaker 1: said is ignorant, if it's hurtful, if it's not knowledgeable,
Speaker 1: but I can do it in this in a way
Speaker 1: that says like, hey, come closer. What like what's the intention?
Speaker 1: Come close? What's the intention of the call? Is it?
Speaker 1: You know? And the intention is I love the way
Speaker 1: you said that, Eric, come closer, and you can feel
Speaker 1: that like and that doesn't mean that sometimes our reactions
Speaker 1: when things are happening that are wrong can't be loud
Speaker 1: or even strong or sharp. But you can feel the
Speaker 1: difference when even anger is expressed from a place of
Speaker 1: love and growth versus a place of just wanting to
Speaker 1: cut things down. So, you know, I think this is
Speaker 1: an essential conversation, and you know, just to tie a
Speaker 1: bow on on this. What I believe and what I
Speaker 1: think is important right now is black people are right
Speaker 1: in saying that they aren't responsible for making sure white
Speaker 1: people learn because there are books, there are tools, there
Speaker 1: are things, And a context that I like to give
Speaker 1: people is when black people have to hear and listen
Speaker 1: to white people work through it, it's like we're cutting
Speaker 1: a wound open over and over and over and over
Speaker 1: and then have to like get back to our lives
Speaker 1: of like trying to have a podcast interview, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like trying to on zoom
Speaker 1: and work. And so there's that, and I think that
Speaker 1: what needs to happen is there is a space for
Speaker 1: white people and black people. I'm just being very binary
Speaker 1: here to do the internal work that needs to be done.
Speaker 1: There is a certain amount of work that needs to
Speaker 1: be done in our individual collective groups, because, for example,
Speaker 1: when we look at the history of racism in our country,
Speaker 1: oftentimes what black people, when they realize the real history,
Speaker 1: what they need to process is anger and rage. And
Speaker 1: oftentimes what I find white people have to process first
Speaker 1: is guilt and shame, you know, around a lot of it.
Speaker 1: And that that's being very generic or generalized. So like,
Speaker 1: there is a space for us to do our own
Speaker 1: individual work with what's coming up, and there has to
Speaker 1: be a space created for us to step closer to
Speaker 1: one another, and that I think both of those things
Speaker 1: have to happen, not just one or the other. I
Speaker 1: think that's a great way of putting it. So I
Speaker 1: want to zoom kind of back down now to the
Speaker 1: individual level, and I want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about your approach to meditation, because um, I think it's important.
Speaker 1: And you say that the reason most meditation apps and
Speaker 1: techniques don't stick is often because they force you to
Speaker 1: concentrate on things you don't really care about. How do
Speaker 1: we meditate on things that we do care about. I
Speaker 1: know that I'm asking you to put a book into
Speaker 1: the next eight minutes, right, which not fair, but but
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your approach to meditation
Speaker 1: and how it's different than what most people would think
Speaker 1: of meditation as being. Yeah, so there's a lot of
Speaker 1: styles and one of the things that is, you know fact,
Speaker 1: is that most styles of meditation that are being practiced
Speaker 1: in the West um derived from styles of meditation that
Speaker 1: came from monks. Now, to become a monk, way back
Speaker 1: when meditation started, you had to leave your family, leave
Speaker 1: everything behind, no passions, oftentime, no food, no water, sit
Speaker 1: the cave or underneath the tree, and devote your life
Speaker 1: to spiritual practice. Cutting off your emotions, cutting off your needs,
Speaker 1: no sex, you know. Ever, like, all these things are gone,
Speaker 1: and so the ancient monks had to create a practice
Speaker 1: to help them disconnect from their worldly desires, and one
Speaker 1: of those practices, one of the most powerful of those practices,
Speaker 1: was meditation. Now, the issue is, we're not monks, right,
Speaker 1: we are. We like, hopefully some of us are having
Speaker 1: sex every once in a while, but you know, we're
Speaker 1: first world people with iPhones and passions, and we're not
Speaker 1: actually wanting to disconnect. We're wanting to connect more purposefully
Speaker 1: and more meaningfully. And so the when you're doing the
Speaker 1: wrong kind of meditation. A way that you know is
Speaker 1: it often feels like you have to sit down and
Speaker 1: try to get your mind to stop thinking, and you
Speaker 1: just can never stop thinking. And then you're beating yourself
Speaker 1: up because you can't stop thinking. And it feels like
Speaker 1: this war literally or chore of accomplishing this goal that
Speaker 1: can barely ever happen, and if it does, it's for
Speaker 1: like three seconds. You know, of old practice. But when
Speaker 1: we shift to doing other styles, and there's several the
Speaker 1: style of meditation that I teach is called freedom meditation.
Speaker 1: What I invite people to do. This is the process
Speaker 1: that I take people through in the most micro version
Speaker 1: I can give to you, is I guide them through
Speaker 1: an experience of first identifying and becoming aware of where
Speaker 1: they are in their own life right now for real,
Speaker 1: like the things that are happening, the self sabotage and
Speaker 1: all the joyful things as well. And then to go
Speaker 1: into the future and imagine a future version of yourself
Speaker 1: that's living the life that you actually want to be
Speaker 1: living on an individual level and on a collective level.
Speaker 1: And then I ask a question, here's you, Now, here's
Speaker 1: the you that you want to become on the other side,
Speaker 1: what's in the gap? What is the energy that is
Speaker 1: differentiating the you that you are now from the you
Speaker 1: that you want to become? And when I ask that question,
Speaker 1: people will say things like confidence or power, or alignment
Speaker 1: or commitment or even one kid one day said to me, Beyonce,
Speaker 1: you know. And then this focus, the energy that you
Speaker 1: define as the gap is what we use in the
Speaker 1: meditation practice as what's also known as a mantra, and
Speaker 1: mantras can be different things. They can be candle flames,
Speaker 1: or your breath, or a word or a word in Sanskrit.
Speaker 1: And what happens is so often people are given these
Speaker 1: mantras that they don't understand and don't care about, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, here's the real thing that I'll say here.
Speaker 1: The real point of meditation is to realize that the
Speaker 1: Guru is within you. And what we've learned to do,
Speaker 1: and this is decolonizing even the wellness space in the
Speaker 1: meditation world, is what we've learned to do is to
Speaker 1: rely on some guru or some app or some person
Speaker 1: on the outside to tell us what we need so
Speaker 1: that we can be well. And what I'm suggesting and
Speaker 1: what many of the pra des for householders like us
Speaker 1: people in the world, suggests you have the answer within you.
Speaker 1: So instead of going to a guru and them telling
Speaker 1: you you need peace or babana namaha, maybe when you
Speaker 1: get clear on your practice, you realize you don't need peace.
Speaker 1: It's not bad to have peace, but you need power.
Speaker 1: And that's a very different meditation practice to do. When
Speaker 1: you're focusing on the energy that you need to step
Speaker 1: into the world and the life that you deserve to live.
Speaker 1: You're using the word mantra um in the sense of
Speaker 1: it usually being a phrase that we repeat and over,
Speaker 1: and like you said, we're usually in a lot of traditions,
Speaker 1: transcendental meditation being one, and but many others. Your mantra
Speaker 1: is given to you by a a guru. It's usually
Speaker 1: in a language you don't understand. It's supposed to be
Speaker 1: this really special thing. And you know you can't tell
Speaker 1: anyone your mantra, and you actually suggest that people come
Speaker 1: up with their own mantra. But before I let you reply,
Speaker 1: I've never had a chance to tell this story, and
Speaker 1: it's a good mantra story. So I've read about zen
Speaker 1: Buddhism in high school. And this is a long time ago, right,
Speaker 1: So in in Columbus, Ohio and nine seven, there were
Speaker 1: not a lot of meditation options. So I somehow found
Speaker 1: one guy who was teaching transcendental meditation, and so I
Speaker 1: was on my way to meditation. And you had to
Speaker 1: pick up three white handkerchiefs, and you had to bring
Speaker 1: some fruit and some flowers. Well, I went to a
Speaker 1: department store at the time, and I shoplifted my handkerchiefs,
Speaker 1: got arrested, which I had never had been a shoplifter
Speaker 1: all my time, never never gotten caught. So then I
Speaker 1: went to transcendental meditation, and I got my special mantra,
Speaker 1: the one that you can't share with anybody. And within
Speaker 1: two hours afterwards, I had gathered a group of my
Speaker 1: friends together and I had taught them all the mantra
Speaker 1: and and tried to teach them, tried to teach them
Speaker 1: how to meditate. So I don't know if all my
Speaker 1: subsequent years of meditation struggles were a result of this
Speaker 1: shoplifting and then and just throwing my my mantra out
Speaker 1: to the whole world. Um, but I like your idea,
Speaker 1: you say that, come up with your own mantra. One
Speaker 1: that's got some juice for you. I love this story. Eric,
Speaker 1: by the way, this it's hilarious and I'm just like
Speaker 1: you were the expert here with that when you were younger.
Speaker 1: And so the thing is is, I want to be
Speaker 1: very clear that I am not like bad talking, any
Speaker 1: app or any style, because there's different styles for everyone.
Speaker 1: There really are so many different styles for everyone. But
Speaker 1: what I know, because I have the gift of being
Speaker 1: a teacher who people just are like really honest with
Speaker 1: people who have even been meditating for years. They come
Speaker 1: to me and they say, Okay, I've been meditating this
Speaker 1: whole time, and really I'm just beating myself up in
Speaker 1: my head the whole time, you know, trying to stop thinking.
Speaker 1: First of all, even the idea that you can get
Speaker 1: your mind to stop thinking, if we really think critically
Speaker 1: about that is the silliest thing in the world. Would
Speaker 1: be like saying, oh, in order to meditate, you guys,
Speaker 1: let's get our heart to stop beating three go like
Speaker 1: not going to happen. And also not something that I
Speaker 1: think people even really want to happen. They've just been
Speaker 1: told that they should want that. What we want is
Speaker 1: not to get our minds to stop. We want to
Speaker 1: get our thoughts to work for us instead of against us.
Speaker 1: That's what we want, you know. And so what I
Speaker 1: invite people to do in the book and in all
Speaker 1: of my work is I never prescribe people any method
Speaker 1: that I say, this is exactly what you should do.
Speaker 1: Follow all of my steps. My whole book and all
Speaker 1: of my practices and teachings are invite people to create
Speaker 1: their own recipe, a recipe that works for them with
Speaker 1: their messy modern lives, so that they can learn practices
Speaker 1: that can help them dive into their internal landscape and
Speaker 1: overcome awesome. Well, I think that is a great place
Speaker 1: for us to wrap up this conversation. You and I
Speaker 1: are going to continue for a little bit. In the
Speaker 1: post show conversation. We'll probably talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: about your meditation style. We'll talk about four ways we
Speaker 1: might be sabotaging ourselves without even knowing it, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about capitalist depression at its finest. Perhaps it's a
Speaker 1: lot to cover in a post your conversation, but listeners,
Speaker 1: if you're interested, you can go to one you feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash joint. You can get access to this
Speaker 1: conversation with justin, lots of other post show conversations and
Speaker 1: extra mini episode with me each week, and the joy
Speaker 1: of supporting something you care about. When you feed dot
Speaker 1: net slash joint justin, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on the show. This has been a really good conversation
Speaker 1: and I wish we had more time as I would
Speaker 1: like to continue it and we will, but thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Thanks. Eric is such an honor. If what
Speaker 1: you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making
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