1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World Fall nineteen forty four, 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Paris has been liberated, saved from destruction, but this diversion 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: on the road to Berlin has given the Germans time 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: to regroup. The American and British armies press eastward, facing 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: the enemy time and again in the Hurrican Forest during 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: the Market Garden invasion and at the Battle of the 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Walch all the while American General George Patton and British 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery five for supremacy as the Allies 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: top Battlefield come in. Taking Berlin is a pulse pounding 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: race into the final desperate months of the Second World 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: War and toward the fiery destruction of the thousand year Reich, 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: chronicling a moment in history when Allies became adversaries. Here 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: to talk about his new book, Taking Berlin, The Bloody 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: Race to Defeat the Third Reich, I am really pleased 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: to welcome back my guest, Martin Dugard. He is a 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: number one New York Times bestselling author and historian who 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: has written on topics ranging from presidents to Egyptian pharaoh's. 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: Author of Taking Paris, the epic Battle for the City 19 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: of Lights, he is also co author of the popular 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: Killing series with Bill O'Reilly, along with other acclaimed works. Marty, 21 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me again on News World, mister speakers. 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: Always a privilege to be here. Thank you very much 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: for having me. I have to start by asking you. 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: As we were reviewing your new book, we noticed your 25 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: bio from the publisher, which says quote known for his 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: fondness for adventure, he is also a fellow of the 27 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: Royal Geographical Society and has flown around the world at 28 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: twice the speed of sound. So we have to starve 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: right there. What was it like flying around the world 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: at twice the speed of sound? It was like a 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: supersonic party bust, quite honestly. It was nineteen ninety six 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: and it was on an air France conquered and it 33 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: was chartered by Coors Light in an attempt to break 34 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: the around the world speed record New York to to Loose, 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: to Loose to Dubai, Dubai to Bangkok anyway, thirty one 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: hours and twenty eight minutes later, with a seven course 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: meal for every three hours of the flight. It was fantastic, 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: you know. And as we landed the group on board 39 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: the plane chanted you know, one more lap, one more lap. 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: So it was pretty cool. As I remember, I flew 41 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: the concord twice and as I remember, it's not very big. 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: It's tiny. It's like a military jet because the walls 43 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: are so thick, so you can't really move some one 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: of those things where you congregate in the aisles. But 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: it was you know, I love that moment and you've 46 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: experienced it where you know, just before you go through 47 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: the soundburrier for the first time, they kind of tilt 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: the nose downward again airspeed. Then you feel that kind 49 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: of the thump at the back of the plane as 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: you punched through the sound barrier, and it's an amazing feeling. 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: I really felt bad when they took him out of service, 52 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: and I understand now. I think Boeing is building a 53 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: new one that's eva and faster and bigger as the 54 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: technologies have evolved, so we may presently see some really 55 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: really fast commercial airliners. It'll make going New York to 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: Tokyo pretty easy. Now. In addition to being a fellow 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: at the Royal Geographical Siety, which I did not realize, 58 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: you are a very steady writer. And of course the 59 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: last time we talked was about your first book in 60 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: your new Taking series, Taking Paris, What inspired you to 61 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: write Taking Berlin is the next book in the series. 62 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: Paris ends in nineteen forty four, and when I finished that, 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: it felt to me like the war was over, But 64 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: in reality, the war wasn't over. Just because Paris was liberated, 65 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: that was the moment when everybody kind of felt like 66 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: we could stop worrying about the Germans, we could stop 67 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: thinking about the Japanese. But when you look at it, 68 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: those last nine months between August and May nineteen forty 69 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: five were some of the most ferocious fighting in Europe, 70 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: both in the East and the West. And it was 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: just one of those things where I felt it so 72 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: much fun writing Taking Paris. It was just such a 73 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: great nice to write my own voice again, and it 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: was nice to really tell a really good, vivid history. 75 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: So I thought I'd take another crack at it. It 76 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: was funny. The difference is, you know, Taking Paris was 77 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: a book about one place. Everything pivoted around Paris. You 78 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: had all the events, even of the events that took 79 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: place in North Africa. We're all about getting back to 80 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: Paris and liberating Paris. And you know that Cosablanca, the 81 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: movie Costa Blanca. The thing about you know, we'll always 82 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: have Paris, but taking related is much more about the 83 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: individuals involved within those campaigns. Because some of these big 84 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: battles in taking Berlin, like D Day and herdcan Forest 85 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: and Market Garden and Operation Bagration on the Russian Front, 86 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: they're just so big they're a book in and of themselves. 87 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: So it looked for you know, people like you know 88 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: Patt and Montgomery, Churchill, Eisenhower and you know, lesser characters 89 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: like Martha Gelhorn and General James Gavin to tell the 90 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: story through their eyes, to give it a much more 91 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: personal and immediate feel. So as I gather, you actually 92 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: physically go and look at the sites you're going to 93 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: write about. That must be a hoot. It's so much, 94 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: you know. And the great thing is, you know, my 95 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: wife comes along as my assistant, so she's a right off, 96 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: so which is great. But you know, there's something about, 97 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: for instance, when I was running about Market Garden, so 98 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: I literally went to the place you know then the 99 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: Belgian Dutch border where the British troops jumped off that 100 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: I crossed all the bridges that the US airborne and 101 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: the British Airborne had captured, you know, in their attempt 102 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: to push across the German border. And then I went, 103 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, Niemaking was the last bridge that we captured, 104 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: which has since been rebuilt after being blown up in 105 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: the war. But I stood at the spot where the 106 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: eighty second Airborne you know, launched these flimsy canvas boat 107 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: to try to paddle across the Wall river, right into 108 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: the thick of a very fierce German defense. They launched 109 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: all these boats, and half when we're gone, and half 110 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: the men were lost. But to literally walk from the 111 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: place where they put the boats together, they walked up 112 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: and over this berm. They walked all the way down 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: on the grass to the river's edge and launched those boats, 114 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: you know. To walk in their footsteps, and to see 115 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: the river going past and feel the sand beneath my feet, 116 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: it's a great way to write history. I'm sure you 117 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: saw a bridge too far. Say the truth. I was 118 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: reluctant to tackle Market Garden because I remember watching that 119 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: movie and thinking about how confusing it was because you 120 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: had all these different characters, and so I tried to 121 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: simplify that battle too much. But that scene you know, 122 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: Robert Redford plays the protagonist in that scene acrossing the wall, 123 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: so I'll never forget that because he has everybody, you know, 124 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: starting to say a hill Mary or our father or 125 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: something like that, which I don't think really happened, but 126 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: it makes for great drama. That particular scene of crossing 127 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: the river is one of the most amazing in the 128 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: entire movie, and of course Market Garden itself. It's fascinating 129 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: that the Dutch had actually as part of their war 130 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: college every year they had their final exam was how 131 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: do you go from the Megen to Arnhem? And if 132 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: you took the road along the dike, you always failed 133 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: because it could be stopped by just killing one tank. 134 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: And nobody in the American or British army had asked 135 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: a single Dutch officer how to get from Nemegen to Arnhem, 136 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: and they took the road that was guaranteed to fail. 137 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: You go back and look at that. It's one of 138 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: the great weaknesses of the Anglo Saxons that they don't 139 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: particularly like to learn from others. It might well have 140 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: worked under other circumstances, And of course there's this great 141 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: sort of competition between Patton and Montgomery. How do you 142 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: personally come down on that. Now you're dealing with both 143 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: of them, and they're the two dominant ground force personalities 144 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: in the Western Front. How do you measure the two 145 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: of them? You know, there are two very different kinds 146 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: of generals, and you have to think about the politics 147 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: at the time too. The British had suffered greatly, you know, 148 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: they were in the war from May nineteen forty. We 149 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: didn't come in Probos two more years, and the British 150 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: were devastated. They lost so many men. The nation was 151 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 1: on the verge of being impoverished. They were being bombed daily, 152 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: and Montgomery was a national hero. And you had to 153 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: play politics with Churchill to you know, to give Montgomery 154 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: all the men and material in the north to push 155 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: into the rural valley which was, you know, the hub 156 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 1: of the German military movement. Meanwhile, Patton's rampaging across France, 157 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: crossing into Germany, but he runs out of gas because 158 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, Eisenhower playing politics gives Montgomery stuff, you know. 159 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: And the thing is there are two different kinds of generals. 160 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: You know, Montgomery's very much to set peace general. He 161 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: liked to husband's resources, planned the battle, then finally launched 162 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: a battle once there was no possibility of being defeated, 163 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: whereas Patton just told us, people just keep on going 164 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: and we'll catch up. And it was a completely different 165 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: kind of warfare. But coincidentally, it's very much like the 166 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: German Blitzkrieg that rampage across Europe in May nineteen forty, 167 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: but just in reverse, going the other direction. Do you 168 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: think either of the single thrust would have worked if 169 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: they put all the forces behind either Montgomery or Patton. No, 170 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't think so, just because there were two different 171 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: military objectives. You know, Patton was coming in from the south, 172 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: and once you into Germany, from where he crossed the border, 173 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: it's a long way north to Berlin, whereas Montgomery had 174 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: a shorter route. But he was much too timid as 175 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: a general to take advantage of a very a lightning 176 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: fast movement. But I think you needed to have two 177 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: of them. But remember that's what Hitler tried to take 178 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: advantage of the Battle of Le Bulge, was driving a 179 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: wedge between those two thrusts so he could drive on 180 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: towards Antwerp and hopefully take over and divide the American 181 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: forces in super Peace. It's also say in terms of 182 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: person out as you do something I don't think I've 183 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: ever seen done before, you have a significant part of 184 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: the book relates to Martha Gellhorn, who's a war correspondent 185 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: and Ernest Hemingway's third wife and has quite a story 186 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: on her own right. What led you to include her? 187 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: He was purely an accident because I wanted to put 188 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: Hemingway in the book. And you know, like every red 189 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: blooded male American writer, I grew up thinking Hemingway was, 190 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, just to be all and end all. And 191 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: I love his participation in the war during nineteen forty four. 192 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: But as I began to write about him, I found 193 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: that he spent a lot of time just back in Paris, 194 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: and there was really nothing to write about it. I 195 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: wasn't going to write about he was drinking or his philandering. 196 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: And I stumbled across Gelhorn by her writings. And then 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: when I found out that she had stowed away in 198 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: a ship so that she could cover the landings at 199 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: Omaha Beach, and that they took her press, crenunchees away 200 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: and then she finds a way to Nimegan and she's arrested, 201 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: and she falls in love with General James Gavin. Then 202 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: you got a story, because it just gets bigger and 203 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger. And in the middle of all that, 204 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: if you read her journals, you know her marriage to 205 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: Hemingway is falling apart. It finally falls apart right after 206 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: the Battle of the Bulge in Luxembourg City, right near 207 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: bath Stone. And there's something really poignant about hearing her voice. 208 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: But at the same time, World War two books don't 209 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: often get a chance to really put women in there 210 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: because women were often relegated to the role of a 211 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: nurse or something like that. You don't have very many prominent, 212 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: powerful female voices. And the fact that she met her 213 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: match in James Gavin, and then I read Gavin's wartime 214 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: journals and he talked about her and talked about eating 215 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: or you know, it just seemed like something I could 216 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: drop in there to kind of add something to the 217 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: mix that it wasn't your typical World War two book. 218 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: I spent a year in Brussels working on my dissertation, 219 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: and I had never run across this story that the 220 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: city stayed drunk for a week in celebration of freedom 221 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: and partly because the Nazis had left behind eighty thousand 222 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: bottles of claret. Yeah, isn't it great. It's just one 223 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: of those things that you find it, you know, when 224 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Brussels wasn't all that damaged by the war, I mean 225 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: relatively speaking, you know, and so for them to celebrate 226 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: like that. I like that moment because I'd written about 227 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: the fall of Brussels and taking Paris. So sometimes as 228 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: a writer, when you're doing something across a couple of books, 229 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: it's nice to see an arc to the story that 230 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: you didn't expect to coming. You mentioned that Gelhorn goes 231 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: on after World War Two, and she covers Vietnam, Central America, 232 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: and the American invasion of Panama in nineteen eighty nine. 233 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: She must have been substantially younger than Hemingway. Yeah, hemming 234 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: with the time. So he was born eighteen ninety nine, 235 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: so he would have been forty five and she was 236 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: thirty six. But he was an old forty five and 237 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: she was a young thirty six. I mean, if you 238 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: see pictures of him, then he does not look good. 239 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: He's overweight, he's grizzled, he's kind of got this roomy 240 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: look about his eyes, whereas Gelhard had to live by 241 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: her wits. I think, especially if you're a solitary woman 242 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: in a war zone. You know, it's interesting. I'm researching 243 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: the new Taking book, which is taking London, and I 244 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: was back in London about a month ago, had actually 245 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: right after the Queen died, and I made it a 246 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: point to find Gelhorn's old apartment, which is on Slow 247 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: and Square. They're down in central London in Chelsea, and 248 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: I just kind of went and sent in her front 249 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: porch and she's got one of those blue ceramic things 250 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: on the front of the house that says that she 251 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: once lived there and gives her credentials as a war journalist. 252 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: It was like communing with Martha Gelhorn. I felt like 253 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: antipayment respects. She would almost be worth an entire book 254 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: on her own, right. I mean her last assignment is 255 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: reporting on poverty in Brazil at the age of eighty seven. Yeah, 256 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: Brazil is part of travel around. It's a busy country 257 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: and to go there when you're eighty seven deliberately seeking 258 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: out stories about poverty, which means you're going into places 259 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: that are less than I wouldn't say civilized, but places 260 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: where you kind of put yourself in peril. It's a 261 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: gutsy woman, Yeah, she must have been. And then you 262 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: noted that finally, when she was suffering from blindness and 263 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: over ain cancer, she took her own life in nineteen 264 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: ninety eight with the cyanide capsule. I mean, this was 265 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: one tough lady. I didn't know she killed herself until 266 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: I got to the end. I mean till I wrote 267 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: the book, and I was kind of doing the afterwards, 268 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: like oh, what happened to Martha Gelhorn? And then you know, 269 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: when you write about historical characters and you know you've 270 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: done this yourself. I mean, you get to feel like, 271 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: not the through your friends, but you feel a very 272 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: big connection to them because you know them as well 273 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: as you can possibly know them. And so when I 274 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: read that she took her own life and that she 275 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: was suffering, that she lived such a long life, it 276 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: was really sad. It was hard to write about that. 277 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: It's hard to write those sentences. You start really from 278 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: the Western Front, but then you pick up on Stalin 279 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: and the enormous Soviet offensive. What's your sense of Stalin. 280 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: I don't have any good things to say about Stalin, 281 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: but other than. He was a master of real politics. 282 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: He knew how to play the game. You know. Hitler's 283 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: invention of what he called the big lie was co 284 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: opted by Stalin. You know, the in use right now 285 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: by Putin just to justify all those actions. I've got 286 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: to say that Stalin, despite all of his shortcomings, all 287 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: of his paranoia, he had a knack for the big operation. 288 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: He was the one who relid these big offensives. And 289 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, Operation Bagration is almost completely forgotten in America, 290 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: in Britain, but it dwarfs d Date on a massive scale. 291 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: It was to think of six hundred twenty mile front 292 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: pushing out across Germany, all opening up at the same time. 293 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: That's unheard of. That's just a massive show of force. 294 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: I do think people tend to have a sort of 295 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: Western centric view of the war, But the truth is 296 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: the Soviet army was enormous and as used to artillery 297 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: was extraordinary, and they really chewed up far more Germans 298 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: than did the British and the Americans. Oh yeah, and 299 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: there was an element of terror too, because when the 300 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: Germans invaded the Soviet Union, they were awful, burned people 301 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: inside buildings and raped women in total scores dearth policy, 302 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: and the Soviets saw no reason not to return the 303 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: favor when they came back towards the Germans, which is 304 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: why German forces were so terrified of the Soviets. And 305 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: you know when as Gelhorn noted when she did meet 306 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: up with the Soviets towards the end of the war, 307 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: these people were it wasn't just men if they traveled 308 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,119 Speaker 1: with the female warriors, and these people were just tough individuals. 309 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: They were just used to fighting in doing whatever it 310 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: took to win. Yeah, I think the leading sniper in 311 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: Stalingrad was actually a woman. I mean that women played 312 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: a significant role in the Soviet military because you know, 313 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: they were fighting for total survival. And Hitler made very 314 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: clear before the war that this would be a racial 315 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: war between peoples and that their goal would be to 316 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: annihilate the Poles, the Gypsies, the Jews, and the Ukrainians 317 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: and the Russians, and apparently very few of the senior 318 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: German officers objected to it. This myth grew up after 319 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the war about the bad Nazis and the good German generals, 320 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: But in fact, when you go back now that we've 321 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: got a lot more access to material. They were all 322 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: in on this, and they entered the Soviet Union with 323 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: a viciousness that was just breathtaking and slaughtered people. And 324 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right that when the tide turned 325 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: and out it was the Soviets on offense. They were 326 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: as ruthless in trying to destroy the Germans as the 327 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: Germans had been in trying to troy them. When Berlin 328 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: ultimately fell to the Soviets, and you take this force 329 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: that has been approaching the city for months and then 330 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: you finally put them inside the city. And at the 331 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: Soviets weren't that smart, like they was still light bulbs, 332 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: but they didn't realize that light bulbs didn't make light 333 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: unless they hit a source of electricity. But at the 334 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: same time, when they went into Berlin, they killed every man, 335 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: They raped women, from six year olds all the way 336 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: up to sixty year old, seventy year olds. It was 337 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: just rapacious. The way that they just destroyed the German 338 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't war anymore, was an active, utter revenge. So 339 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: you have this enormous Soviet effort which the Germans are 340 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: really focused on trying to stop. I mean, far more 341 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: of the German military is spent trying to stop the Russians. 342 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: And yet you point out something which I did not 343 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: know until I looked at your book, that we actually 344 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: had a plan called Operation Eclipse. Describe Operation Eclipse. We've 345 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: gotten really comfortable with the use of paratroops before World 346 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: War Two, the idea of paratroopers wasn't a very utterly 347 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: new concept. And General James Gavin, you know, one of 348 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: the big players in the book. He jumped over sicily. 349 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: He jumped on D Day, He jumped in Market Garden. 350 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: He had learned how to wage war from the skies, 351 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: and he was selected to lead this final assault on Berlin. 352 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: It was going to be a massive parachute drop on Berlin. 353 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: They were going to seize the airport, They're going to 354 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: seize all the power stations. And Gavin was even going 355 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: to jump with the full dress uniform inside his kit bag, 356 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: so that when the time came he could change out 357 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: of his field fatigues and into this full uniform to 358 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: accept the German surrender. It was going to be just 359 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,239 Speaker 1: this huge coup to grab and ironically, you know, one 360 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: of the reasons that Eisenhower's stuffed the Americans at the 361 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: album and didn't go that last distance into Berlin, which 362 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: infuriated Patton, was because he feared the loss of one 363 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: hundred thousand American lives and he could have done that 364 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: all that if he had done that final jump with Gavin. 365 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: And then of course you know Stalin pat had about 366 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: the jump because he had his spies around there, and 367 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: he only accelerated his pace into Berlin. But I'll tell 368 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: you what, boy had an air drop on Berlin at 369 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the height of the war would have been spectacular. That 370 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: would have been a moment. Do you think though, that 371 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: they also would have run a real risk of being 372 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: isolated and destroyed. Good question. Yeah, I would suggest that 373 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: would be a reason for canceling the jump. But at 374 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: the same time, the German army was in disarray at 375 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: that point and a lot of people trying to move 376 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: west to meet up with the Americans before the Soviets 377 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: could catch them. But again, when we think of Berlin 378 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: and the abstract is doing a parachute drop, it's not 379 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: like jumping on Nimegan, where you're taking this very small 380 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: Dutch city, you're taking a nation's capital. Really, it could 381 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: have been catastrophic. Let's put it that way. I agree 382 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: with you. It makes a lot of sense. I think 383 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: guys now I had two out. If there was one, 384 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: was that because he'd into this argument with Marshall. General 385 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: Marshall when they were planning the Normandy landing had said 386 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: to him, you know, maybe you could take the paratroopers 387 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: and drop them about forty miles inland and create kind 388 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: of a fortress. And I was never said, you know, 389 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we can supply them forty miles inland, 390 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: and I don't want to risk losing all of my paratroopers. 391 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: And it was the first time that I now were 392 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: just flat turned Marshall down and said I'm not doing that. 393 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: So I think he was very cautious, and I think 394 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: that he was a little underwhelmed by market Garden. I 395 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: now had presided over paratrooper landings in North Africa and 396 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: in Sicily. He understood the business he was in. But 397 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: I think his other thought, which was a very American thought, 398 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: was look, if the Soviets really want to take Berlin, 399 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: and the Soviets who wanting to take the casualties to 400 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: take Berlin, why would I have Americans get killed when 401 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: we can just relax and let them do it. We 402 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: tend to forget that the Americans in that period. As 403 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: one general who I've reached about a book about the 404 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: Third Armored Division, the general who had written the book 405 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: as a modern soldier who had retired recently, he kept 406 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: repeating that the model back then was send a bullet, 407 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: not a body. He had a chance. As an American, 408 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: you used fair power to save lives, and you were 409 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: very conscious that you didn't want to lose many lives, 410 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: whereas the Soviets didn't care. They were willing to accept 411 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: huge number of casualties in order to achieve their goal. 412 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: And I've always wondered about that. You know, you have Churchill, 413 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: who is thinking like a politician and who was thinking 414 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: about the balance of power after the war, really wanted 415 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: somehow to get into Berlin. But he also was no 416 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: longer in a position to take Eisenhower head on because 417 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: he knew that Roosevelt and later Truman would always back 418 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: up Eisenhower in that kind of an argument. The other 419 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: thing that hits me is that in the South you 420 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: have Patton going driving east as fast as he can, 421 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: and Patton actually does liberate eight areas that have already 422 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: been allocated to the Soviets. Yeah, I love that you're 423 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: kind of going back to the Eisenhower thing. I don't 424 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: make as much of Eisenhower in this book as I 425 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: could have, just because I was trying to keep the 426 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: focus on movement rather than kind of staying behind the lines. 427 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: But Eisenhower was a master politician, and the way that 428 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: he came to terms with the fact that Montgomery was 429 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: going to be imperious in that Churchill Cassia coming the 430 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: end of the war in Britain was not going to 431 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: play a big role in the post war Europe or 432 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: even in the postwar world because they lost all their colonies. 433 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: And Eisenhower was very delicate in the way he played 434 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: all those things. But when he does make that call 435 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: not to go into Berlin and save American lives, he 436 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: endured the wrath of Churchill, but it can't have been 437 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: that great a wrath because there was no disciplinary movement 438 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: against by Marshall or Roosevelt against eisenarra for what he did. 439 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: You know, as for Patton, the thing about World War 440 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: two is it's one of the last timeless wars, and 441 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: by that I mean one of those Biblical style wars. 442 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: Where to defeat the mean you went in, you took 443 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: their capital, and you conquered everybody within the capitol, and 444 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: then you won the war. In Patton, initially he is 445 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: driving towards Berlin when he crosses the Rhine, but when 446 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: he realizes that it's not going to be that kind 447 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: of outcome and he realizes what the post war Europe 448 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: is going to look like. That push of Hiss across 449 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: southern Germany and into Czechoslovakia is really bold when you 450 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: think about it, because at some point Eisenhar would have 451 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: not have resupplied him anymore. He would have been stuck 452 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: out there with third armor, just totally trying to find 453 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: a way back home. So it was a very bold 454 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: maneuver on his part. Eisenhower had an exquisite sense of 455 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: the power of logistics. He understood that he could cut 456 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: off ammunition, he could cut off gasoline, and this had 457 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: happened to Patton once before when he was on the 458 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: edge of France. You know, the tank stopped because they 459 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: haven't gone a gasoline. Eisenhower used it in a confrontation 460 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: with de gaul where at one point he threatened to 461 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: cut off all of the supplies going to the Free 462 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: French Division if Degaul didn't calm down, and he used 463 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: it between Montgomery and Patton to sort of keep the 464 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: two of them balanced. Plus the truth is, under the 465 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: chain of command, these were tough guys. He could have 466 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: fired Patton any morning if he wanted to, because Patton 467 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: had already been so controversial, and Bradley did not particularly 468 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: thrilled by Patton anyway, and Bradley was his immediate superior. 469 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: But it's funny to look in that period. You have 470 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: a remarkably different story here from the story that you 471 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: had in Paris. This is much more sprawling, it covers 472 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: much more territory, and it's much more complex. I think 473 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: it's really a terrific addition to your Taking History series. 474 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: And I gathered from what you said a while ago, 475 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: the Taking London may show up and we might be 476 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: able to next year. Have you come back and chat 477 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: with us again about another aspect. I think you found 478 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: yourself a really fun niche between that and working with 479 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: Bill and the Killing series. It doesn't strike me that 480 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: you have much spare time. I keep regular office hours 481 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: and make sure that at the end of the day 482 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: I at least go for a walk just to clear 483 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: my it can get a little bit. I want to 484 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I think your new book, 485 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: Taking Berlin, the Bloody Race to Defeat the Third Reich 486 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: is a great addition to your series. As always, Marty, 487 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me on Newtsworld. 488 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: Let's speak for my pleasure. It's always an honored to 489 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: talk with you. You're smart guy. I love talking to you. 490 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: It's great. Thank you very much. Thank you to my 491 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: guest Martin Dugard. You can get a link to buy 492 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: his new book, Taking Berlin, the Bloody Race to Defeat 493 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: the Third Reich on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 494 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by gingwistreet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 495 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, 496 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: and our researcher as Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 497 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 498 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 499 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 500 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 501 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, Listeners 502 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: of news World can sign up for my three free 503 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: weekly columns at gingwish sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 504 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld