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Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk about the Latin Mass, and

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Speaker 1: we'll explore why it is attracting young people. With Cardinal

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Speaker 1: Raymond Burke. A special edition of The Prayerful Posse has arrived.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse. I

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Speaker 1: want to go right to Cardinal Raymond Burke, but before

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Speaker 1: we do, don't forget to subscribe to the Arroyo Grande

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Speaker 1: channel here on YouTube or look, if you like podcasts,

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Speaker 1: go to iHeart, Apple Spotify subscribe there. We don't want

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Speaker 1: you to miss an episode. This month mark's the fiftieth

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Speaker 1: anniversary of this man's priesthood. I want to welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show his eminence, Raymond, Cardinal Burke, your eminence. You

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Speaker 1: are the first cardinal we've ever had on this new

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Speaker 1: Posse program, so welcome. You got a really nice note

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Speaker 1: from Pope Leo on your golden jubilee, and I want

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Speaker 1: to quote this. He said he has preached, meaning you,

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Speaker 1: the precepts of the Gospel according to the Heart of Christ,

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Speaker 1: and has recounted his treasures diligently, offering his devoted service

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Speaker 1: to the church. Universal pretty high praise. He also commended

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Speaker 1: your defense of church law. What did that mean to

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Speaker 1: you when you read that.

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Speaker 2: Note, Well, it was very encouraging to me certainly.

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Speaker 3: That's what I always intended, was to be a true

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Speaker 3: teacher of the faith and also at the same time

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Speaker 3: to observe the discipline of the Church for the good

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Speaker 3: of everyone, and to defend the discipline of the Church,

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Speaker 3: which now for several decades has been under attack and

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Speaker 3: the whole anti nomian, anti law culture in which we

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Speaker 3: have lived. Thanks God, it seems to be abating. But

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Speaker 3: in any case, I was very heartened by the Holy

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Speaker 3: Father's words.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, they were beautiful and well deserved. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if anybody had been preaching and defending the faith in

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Speaker 1: season and out of season, I think I know his name,

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Speaker 1: and it's mine, except it's got cardinal before it. I know.

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Speaker 1: You've been a huge proponent of the traditional Latin mass,

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Speaker 1: your eminence, which as you know, is being suppressed in

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Speaker 1: so many dioceseses following Pope Francis's legislation years ago. But

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Speaker 1: still young people are flocking to this Latin mass no

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Speaker 1: matter where I travel. I mean I was just in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Or outside of Washington, d C. You go

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Speaker 1: to Nashville, here in New Orleans, and this week in England,

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Speaker 1: a seminary offered the ancient Roman Right in Birmingham and

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Speaker 1: they were packed to the gills. What is drawing them,

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Speaker 1: your Eminence, and how is this different from the New Mass.

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Speaker 3: It's the beauty of the what I call the more

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Speaker 3: ancient form of the Roman right, the form which you

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Speaker 3: did practically from the time of pum Saint Gregory the

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Speaker 3: Great until the time of the Second Vatican Council. And

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Speaker 3: we and the Holy Father in his words me talked

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Speaker 3: about the tradition, the treasures in the church, and the

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Speaker 3: great treasure of the Church. I remember it from my

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Speaker 3: own childhood. It was clear to me that her great

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Speaker 3: treasury was the sacred liturgy, was the Roman Rite, and

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Speaker 3: how it had developed in unity over the centuries. And

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Speaker 3: oftentimes people refer to the reforms of after the Council

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Speaker 3: of Trent as being the same as the reforms that

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Speaker 3: were done to the Sacred Liturgy after the Second Vatican Council.

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Speaker 3: But that's not the case. And the reforms after the

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Speaker 3: Council of Trent were to address some elements, but the

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Speaker 3: form of the right I mean, was maintained and so

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Speaker 3: in continuity for more than fifteen centuries. And whereas after

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Speaker 3: the Second Batgy Council, and I mean not due to

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Speaker 3: the teaching of the Council, but to the way in

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Speaker 3: which that teaching was abused, the right was radically reduced.

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Speaker 2: I don't question its validity in any way.

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Speaker 3: And there is a continuity, but it's so strained. You

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Speaker 3: don't take something so rich in beauty and start stripping

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Speaker 3: away the beautiful elements and without having a negative effect.

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Speaker 1: You're eminence. A lot of people looking in, you know,

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Speaker 1: some Catholic, some non Catholic, look. A lot of young

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Speaker 1: people watch the show and they are just curious, I think,

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Speaker 1: and have no exposure really to the old right, but

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Speaker 1: they're drawn to it when they see it. How is

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Speaker 1: it different from the new mass? Can you go through

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Speaker 1: a couple of the elements that you would underscore and say,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is something, that this is a reservoir

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Speaker 1: of richness in the traditional Latin right that we shouldn't lose,

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Speaker 1: and that perhaps either has been overlooked or edited out.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would say that the principal element, I think,

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Speaker 3: which is attracting the young people and which attracts me

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Speaker 3: is that the form of the right is such that

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Speaker 3: it makes it clear that it's Christ who's acting, that

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Speaker 3: the priest is acting in the person of Christ, but

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Speaker 3: it's the priest fades into the background and Christ emerges.

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Speaker 3: Because of the form of the right, there's no spontaneity,

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Speaker 3: there's not this kind of familiarity that was introduced after

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Speaker 3: the Council, you know, introducing ordinary language into the Sacred

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Speaker 3: Liturgy and all those elements that we seek to be

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Speaker 3: lifted up. We don't go to the Holy Mass to

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Speaker 3: take part in some secular activity that keeps us in

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Speaker 3: in the worldly and what is not uplifting, what is

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Speaker 3: not inspiring. We go there to encounter God and to

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Speaker 3: be lifted up and to be drawn to a greater

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Speaker 3: conversion of life. And that's what we find in the

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Speaker 3: what's now called the extraordinary form or the more ancient

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Speaker 3: usage of the Roman rite. So it's this transcendence, I

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Speaker 3: would say oftentimes commentators talk about that is that it's

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Speaker 3: clear when one is assisting at this right, that something

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Speaker 3: heavenly is taking place, something that's beyond this world, and

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Speaker 3: that's essential. What worship is worship of God as God

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Speaker 3: himself has instructed us to worship him, and it takes

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Speaker 3: simp e element for instance, the prayers at the foot

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Speaker 3: of the alder, which were eliminated, but this came into

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Speaker 3: the form of the Mass from the ancient Jewish form

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Speaker 3: of worship, the prayers of the priests before entering into

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Speaker 3: the Holy of Holies. These are all elements which and

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Speaker 3: the beautiful prayers for the offertory for instance, and the

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Speaker 3: richer prayers before the priest, So the communion, all of

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Speaker 3: these elements that they keep drawing us back to the

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Speaker 3: presence of Christ. Christ has descended from his place in

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Speaker 3: glory at the right hand of the Father, and now

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Speaker 3: he's offering the Mass using the hens and heart and

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Speaker 3: lips and the being of his priest to make a

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Speaker 3: present for us his sacrifice eron.

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Speaker 1: It's what would you say? And I get this a

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Speaker 1: lot even in our comments, people say, oh, I was there,

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Speaker 1: I don't like that idea, the priest turning his back

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Speaker 1: to the people. Talk about the orientation out orientum facing

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Speaker 1: these what that means, why it's important, and how it

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Speaker 1: connects us to the very ancient worship as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: a moment ago of the Jewish faith.

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Speaker 3: Surely well, the figure of the priest. He's acting in

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Speaker 3: the person of Christ, head and shepherd of the flock,

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Speaker 3: and so he's at the head of the flock, leading

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Speaker 3: them in prayer, and everyone is facing God. We're not praying.

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Speaker 3: The priest is not praying to the people. The priest

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Speaker 3: is not putting on some kind of theater for the people.

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Speaker 3: He's at the head of the people, leading them in

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Speaker 3: prayer to God.

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Speaker 2: And so it's the most.

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Speaker 3: It's the most natural logical posture, is that the priest

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Speaker 3: should be facing and he's not turning his back on

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Speaker 3: the people, but he's as a good shepherd, he's at

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Speaker 3: their head, leading them, and they're following him who are

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Speaker 3: offering up their prayers. I've heard the analogy used. It's

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Speaker 3: certainly a little not perfect, but they said, you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: want the bus driver on the bus to be looking

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Speaker 3: at you when he's supposed to be driving the driving

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Speaker 3: you somewhere, and so it's the same way. The priest

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Speaker 3: isn't interacting with the people. The priests is that their head,

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Speaker 3: Christ himself leading them to to prayer to God the Father.

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Speaker 1: So and to the east, the source of the resurrection.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's where the resurrection will happen, and it

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Speaker 1: happens every Sunday, every Mass.

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Speaker 3: Exactly right. The Mass is the evidence of the resurrection

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Speaker 3: of Christ. If Christ hadn't risen from the dead, we

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have the Holy Mass. He wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 3: continue to give himself to us in this way.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's another interesting thing in the polling. I

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Speaker 1: just read a pupil and it shows about twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent of Catholics eighteen to thirty nine a ten Mass.

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Speaker 1: But among those who prefer the Latin Mass, ninety eight

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Speaker 1: percent attend every week and fifty eight percent of them say,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, reverence and the music are major factors.

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Speaker 1: Why isn't the larger church getting that message your eminence?

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Speaker 1: And why has this become so volatile, so explosive in

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Speaker 1: the church.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's the defective catechisas over over many

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Speaker 3: decades that people don't understand what the reality of the Mass,

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Speaker 3: and they get glimpses of it, but they we need

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Speaker 3: to teach again what what what the Mass is, what

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Speaker 3: it means to worship God. And if people don't understand that,

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Speaker 3: if they think it's some kind of social event or

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Speaker 3: some kind of a communal meal, whatever it might be.

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Speaker 3: The single Yes, music, you mentioned music. It's so important.

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Speaker 3: When I was a child, I remember in second grade

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Speaker 3: the sister teaching us the notes of Gregorian chant when

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Speaker 3: we were learning the chance, and we sang Palestrina during

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Speaker 3: Holy Week and so forth.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, this is what the Vatican Council intended.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and no exactly it was.

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Speaker 3: It was no, there was no intent, no intent to

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Speaker 3: kind of what I would call an eccles awokeism, that

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Speaker 3: you know, everything in the past is no good, the

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Speaker 3: form of the Mass no good. We have to invent

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Speaker 3: something new. Saint Paul says about the Eucharist. I handed

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Speaker 3: on to you what I first of all received. We

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Speaker 3: there should be in that sense that also the form

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Speaker 3: of the Mass is handed down from one generation to

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Speaker 3: the next.

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Speaker 2: And I remember.

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Speaker 3: Thinking of that when I was a youngster, that this

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Speaker 3: is the Mass that's been celebrated in the Church for centuries,

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Speaker 3: and even the Latin language, and I think that it's

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Speaker 3: sad that one could have provided for the proclamation of

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Speaker 3: the readings in the vernacular. But the Latin language was

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Speaker 3: also unified us, not only in time as the Mass

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Speaker 3: came down to us, but also in space, wherever you went,

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Speaker 3: you could always pray the Holy Mass, because it was

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Speaker 3: the language of the Church.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And Vatican too never called for the eradication of Latin,

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Speaker 1: and it called for its preservation exactly.

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Speaker 3: It called it said there should be a repertory of

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Speaker 3: Gregorian chant, for instance, that would be taught throughout the world. Well,

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Speaker 3: those things somehow got lost, not everywhere, but too sadly

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Speaker 3: in great part.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what are the origins of that chant? I

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Speaker 1: get this all the time. I mean it's people say,

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Speaker 1: you know where do where does this chant come from?

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Speaker 1: You know it's you know, it's this is a relic

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Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages. They say, not the case.

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Speaker 2: No it's not at all.

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Speaker 3: It has its remote roots and the chants from at

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Speaker 3: the time of our Lord himself, the the Hebrew Hebrew chant.

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Speaker 3: And then it developed very early in the church, this

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Speaker 3: music which was only used for for worship. It's not

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Speaker 3: it was never used for any for anything else. And uh,

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Speaker 3: going back to Guido Drezzo, who Guido from Aretzo in Italy,

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Speaker 3: and so no, this is came very early in the church.

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Speaker 3: And next day, as I say, from Jewish worship developed

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Speaker 3: out of it. There are some very important studies of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, its roots are in the very early centuries, so

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Speaker 1: you know, we really predate the Church. In a speech

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Speaker 1: in London, you said something I want to draw attention to.

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Speaker 1: You said, and this was just a month ago. Doctrinal

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Speaker 1: and moral corruption in the Church is manifested in the

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Speaker 1: falsification of divine worship, where the truth of doctrine and

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Speaker 1: the goodness of morals are not respected. Neither is the

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Speaker 1: beauty of worship. What did you mean by that? And

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Speaker 1: how is worship related to corruption and moral error?

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Speaker 3: The worship of God are lifting up our minds and

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Speaker 3: hearts to God, has a profoundly moral aspect to it.

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Speaker 3: It caused us to overcome the temptations, overcome the effects

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Speaker 3: of original sin in our lives, temptations which come from

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Speaker 3: both from within ourselves and also from the world and

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Speaker 3: from from Satan and the forces of evil. And it's

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Speaker 3: in the sacred liturgy that we contact God in the

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Speaker 3: most perfect way possible. We're in communion with God in

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Speaker 3: the most perfect way possible, and this gives us strength

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Speaker 3: and force to continue that that battle to overcome evil

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Speaker 3: in our lives and.

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Speaker 2: To do good, to serve what is good.

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Speaker 3: And it's simply a matter of fact that when when

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Speaker 3: when liturgy is benalized. For instance, Saint Paul confronted that

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Speaker 3: in the in Corinth in the early days of the Church,

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Speaker 3: the people were eating and drinking and carrying on, and

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Speaker 3: in the context of the sacred liturgy, then immorality ensues.

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Speaker 2: And of course and so and oftentimes.

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Speaker 3: Well, I heard the famous example of of Paul Clodell,

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Speaker 3: the great French poet, who was that it was at

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Speaker 3: the solemn Vespers and on Easter Sunday, I believe it

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Speaker 3: was in the Saint the Cathedral Notre Dame that he

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Speaker 3: received the grace of conversion. The beauty, the music, the

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Speaker 3: the the form of the praying of the Vespers gave

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Speaker 3: him the strength and to to embark on a conversion

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Speaker 3: of life. And the stories are our legion and the

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Speaker 3: and the ancient form of the of the Roman Rite

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Speaker 3: inspired just such conversions. Uh, and you know, led to

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Speaker 3: saints created saints helped to help people to become heroic

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Speaker 3: in their in their Christian life.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's often called this ancient Latin. We call it

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Speaker 1: now the traditional Latin Mass, or the extraordinary form of

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Speaker 1: the Mass. It is also referred to as the Mass

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Speaker 1: of the Saints. And that's because in its form and

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Speaker 1: in its substance, the Food of God, the Bread of life,

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Speaker 1: is imparted during that mass. That's wide exists, and somewhere

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Speaker 1: along the way we've lost that reverence. And when you

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Speaker 1: lose the reverence, when you lose the music and you

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Speaker 1: lose the reverence, you lose the reality of the Eucharist

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Speaker 1: and its power exactly.

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Speaker 3: I think an example that struck me. It was some

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Speaker 3: years ago, but I was studying the life of Saint

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Speaker 3: Damien da Vista. There's Damien of Malachi, and of course

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Speaker 3: he's often presented solely in terms of his care for

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Speaker 3: the lepers, and with which was heroic indeed. But when

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Speaker 3: you read what he writes about the Holy Eucharists and

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Speaker 3: how important in his life eucharistic faith was, you understand

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Speaker 3: that that was the fund of the love that he

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Speaker 3: showed these porests of the poorest, so to speak. At

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Speaker 3: that time and in that place.

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Speaker 1: There's all obviously a vocational crisis your eminence. I mean,

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Speaker 1: look some of these larger dioceses, you know this as

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Speaker 1: well as anybody. You were the archbishop of Saint Louis.

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Speaker 1: These larger dioceses are having real trouble. In a five

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Speaker 1: year period from twenty nineteen to about twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: San Diego, for instance, ordained nine priests in that five

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Speaker 1: year period. Meanwhile Bismarck, North Carolina in the same period

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Speaker 1: ordained fifteen priests. And they are far far smaller, but

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Speaker 1: they focus on schools. They sent priests to serve in

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Speaker 1: those schools, so young men see an example of vocations,

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Speaker 1: and they take to the juniors on a trip to

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Speaker 1: Rome to stress Catholic orthodoxy. Why aren't others following that

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Speaker 1: Bizmarck model.

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Speaker 3: No, you said North Carolina, but I think you met

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Speaker 3: North Dakota.

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Speaker 1: I mean North Dakota.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very good.

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Speaker 3: Well that's they have, of course an excellent bishop there,

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Speaker 3: and they have exactly what you say. If you stress,

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Speaker 3: put your stress on the family and on Catholic education,

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Speaker 3: real Catholic education, which of course the family is deeply

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Speaker 3: involved within the priests, and exactly what you say, members

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Speaker 3: of Bishop I saw this was so important to have

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Speaker 3: the priests in the schools, teaching and giving an example

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Speaker 3: of priests the life and comporting themselves. Of course, you

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Speaker 3: put your best priests in the schools, in the seminaries

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Speaker 3: in order to hand on the faith in the best

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Speaker 3: way possible to the coming generations. But then, yes, we

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Speaker 3: need to turn to those dioceses and who are Some

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Speaker 3: of them are very small, but they are. Our Lord

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Speaker 3: is always calling a sufficient number of young men to

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Speaker 3: the priesthood in every diocese. If there's a problem with vocations,

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Speaker 3: the problem is ours. We're not helping the young people

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Speaker 3: to have a lively faith that will permit them to

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Speaker 3: hear our Lord's call.

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Speaker 2: Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's obvious you're Eminent's I mean everything you're talking

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Speaker 1: about today, the beauty of music, the sequality of the liturgy,

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Speaker 1: and it's beauty and the rhythm and the tone of

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Speaker 1: sequality that it sets by its very nature, and the example,

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Speaker 1: the lived example of clergy and laity side by side.

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Speaker 1: That is the key forward. And it's and young people

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Speaker 1: are hearing the call, they're seeing it, they're experiencing it,

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Speaker 1: and they want more of it. I know why the

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Speaker 1: church doesn't offer it.

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Speaker 3: I hear it all the time. I encountered, and I'm

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Speaker 3: a relatively old man. It's not that I'm that much

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Speaker 3: in contact. Pity, so many young people encounter regularly, and

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Speaker 3: they're hearing a call. They're saying, please pray for me.

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Speaker 3: I remember a couple of years ago I was at

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Speaker 3: the Three Hearts pilgrimage at Clear Creek Abbey in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 3: and afterwards I greeted the pilgrims, all these all these

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Speaker 3: young people, and I don't know how many them told me, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm entering the passion and.

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Speaker 2: See of this religious order. I'm going to the seminary.

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Speaker 3: How many said, please pray for me your eminence, because

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking I'm hearing the call to the priesthood. No,

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Speaker 3: it's evident, and it's remarkable in a time like ours,

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Speaker 3: which is so much securarization, so much evil in terms

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Speaker 3: of the attack on human life and the family, and

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Speaker 3: on our own identity as man and woman, and yet

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Speaker 3: the Holy Spirit is clearly at work drawing souls your eminence.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go back in March, you started

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Speaker 1: a nine month novena to our Lady of Guadelupe. And

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Speaker 1: this is how it begins, O Virgin Mother of God.

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Speaker 1: We fly to your protection and beg your intercession against

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Speaker 1: the darkness and sin which ever more enveloped the world

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Speaker 1: and menace the church. Why does it start that way?

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Speaker 1: And tell those tuning in what a novena is For

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Speaker 1: those who might not know.

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Speaker 3: It's as simple as this. The world has fallen. We

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Speaker 3: are need of salvation. Our first impulse to prayer is

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Speaker 3: because we recognize the forces of evil about us, and

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Speaker 3: we also recognize that there is one who has overcome them,

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Speaker 3: and who is alive with us, in us and will

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Speaker 3: help us overcome, and that is Jesus Christ. And we

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Speaker 3: fly to his mother to get us to him, take

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Speaker 3: us to him. And in the situation in which we're living,

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Speaker 3: we only need to look around at the proliferation of crime,

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Speaker 3: of violence, of murder, and then internationally the wars, tremendous

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Speaker 3: destruction of human life and of goods, the u and

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Speaker 3: for instance, this horrible gender theory that was promulgated. It

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Speaker 3: seems to me that rightly it's having a short life

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Speaker 3: at least I hope so. But when so many lives

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Speaker 3: so wounded, these young people who in the confusion of

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Speaker 3: their adolescents, think that they aren't the sex that the

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Speaker 3: God created them and then have surgeries and so for

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Speaker 3: a lo only later to realize what they've done is

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Speaker 3: mutilate themselves. And well, we need to go into all

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Speaker 3: kinds of examples. But the world is in need of salvation.

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Speaker 3: And this is also with regard to the sacred liturgy.

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Speaker 3: What we should be offering in sacred worship is exactly

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Speaker 3: the worship of God and not worship of ourselves and

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Speaker 3: of our fallen nature.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, your Eminence, I could talk to you all day.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you joined us not only on the

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Speaker 1: seventeenth anniversary of the Shrine of our Lady of Guadalupe

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Speaker 1: that you found it in Lacrosse, but also the fiftieth

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Speaker 1: anniversary of your priestudent. So jubilees all around, your Eminence,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here, and I hope to see

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Speaker 1: you again, very silk.

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Speaker 3: Thank you God, bless your imminent and the work of

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Speaker 3: the What is it now, the prayerful Posse?

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Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse? You see, I knew you'd get it right.

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Speaker 2: You're evidence to you.

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Speaker 3: That's a wonderful, wonderful title.

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Speaker 1: You're very kind. Well, thank you, my friend, and we'll

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Speaker 1: see you soon.

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Speaker 2: God bless you, God bless you.

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Speaker 1: Bye. Well, that is all the time we have. Look,

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Speaker 1: if you want more Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, it isn't good,

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Speaker 1: it's fun. Subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube

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Speaker 1: or the Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours, and

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Speaker 1: you'll instantly get the Prayerful Posse until we ride again.

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Speaker 1: Stay the course, follow the light. I'm ranging an Arroyo.

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Speaker 1: We'll see an next tent. The Royal Grande Prayerful Posse

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Speaker 1: is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and it's available

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts

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Speaker 1: and