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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware. Listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: l I t E dot com. Join today by author

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Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner, expert on all things wild West. But first,

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Speaker 1: the Bob Kratchett Report.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the audience looks forward to the Bob

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Speaker 2: Cratchitt Report every every Monday.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing I've been worried about. Yeah, you think

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Speaker 1: maybe no one cares, uh huh as much as I care.

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Speaker 3: I think you're onto something there.

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Speaker 1: How's it going? How's how's it going? As Bob cratch

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Speaker 1: It just real quick, Phil's just so everybody knows. People

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Speaker 1: just discovering the show. Phil is he's uh, he's been

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Speaker 1: cast into Christmas Carol.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. We just dad tiny, Tim's Dad. Rehearsals

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Speaker 2: are rolling, they're going well. Uh, it's always fun watching

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Speaker 2: watching it come together. You know, it's it's show business. Baby,

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Speaker 2: We're We're.

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Speaker 4: I don't have a whole lot to add, Steve.

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Speaker 2: If you in case you you do, you get like groupies,

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Speaker 2: groupies theater groupies, like girls that want to come talk

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The first time someone asked me to sign their program

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Speaker 2: in the alley behind the theater, I was taking up.

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Speaker 1: I was telling about getting bugged.

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Speaker 2: They they do exist, but they are they are very

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Speaker 2: they are few and far between.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Phil, do you use a special Bob Cratchit voice

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Speaker 5: in the show?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? How do you say it's up?

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Speaker 3: I do? I do have an English accent?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I think you guys could just not do that.

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Speaker 2: You just think we should go full American and just

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Speaker 2: spanning all different regions of the United States.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like I was saying, you would do US currency.

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Speaker 3: US Yeah, because that's confusing and.

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Speaker 1: Just have have you ever watched Death of Stalin.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the guy from who created Veep did

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Speaker 2: that phenomenal movie.

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Speaker 1: But everybody just talks like how they talk. They're not

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Speaker 1: all trying to have that like that boris like, do

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Speaker 1: the accent you do when you're a Russian.

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Speaker 3: In the movie.

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Speaker 2: I've never I've never been a Russian in a movie.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they don't they don't do all that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's like Steve Bushmi, but he talks like he's Steve. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's good.

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Speaker 2: I think you are are masking your love for theater

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Speaker 2: and spectacle. You you try to direct it towards me.

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Speaker 2: But this is just a way for you to share

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Speaker 2: all of your ideas that you have for how to

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Speaker 2: how to just create a great theater production.

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Speaker 3: I think you're in the wrong line of work.

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Speaker 1: Frankly, Yeah, that's true because you know what my wife

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Speaker 1: points out to me a lot of times. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times I'll yell at my kids about something and

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Speaker 1: she's like, you're talking through the kids to me. This

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Speaker 1: is me you're talking about. Because I can get away

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Speaker 1: with that, but I can't get away with saying it

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Speaker 1: to her. So I'll say it to them in her presence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like who left all this land everywhere? But I know

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Speaker 1: it's hurt.

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Speaker 3: My wife is the exact same thing to me.

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Speaker 5: I hate to tell you this, but that might be

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Speaker 5: a universal tactic because I tend to the same.

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Speaker 1: I like mom did oh oh it was mom? Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: just don't like to see that. Just make sure it's

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Speaker 1: not you. Guys.

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Speaker 6: By the time this airs, you and I will probably

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Speaker 6: be coordinating our outfits for to go see Bob cratching

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Speaker 6: the matinee.

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Speaker 1: I don't having science as I'm here for cratching love it.

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Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner's the author historian of The Weast Musician.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know this Turkey hunting enthusiast.

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Speaker 4: I'm an addict, seriously, Yes, every spring.

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Speaker 1: Huh rare book collector.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And I heard that you compete with Random in the

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Speaker 1: state sales.

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Speaker 4: I do, yes, if there's one. If there's one today,

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Speaker 4: I'll be there right, but they're usually not on Tuesdays.

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Speaker 1: Author of many books. You know, you know I liked it.

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Speaker 1: You did a lot. You did that thing where you

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Speaker 1: did what's that thing called? Where you do like you

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Speaker 1: take questions like wild West questions. It's that it's on

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Speaker 1: Uh what the hell was that?

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Speaker 5: Wired?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Wired? Where you like field? You like the helpline

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Speaker 1: and you field wild West questions. Dude, you got a

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Speaker 1: lot of breadth when it comes to wild West history,

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Speaker 1: like good wild West details.

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Speaker 4: Well thanks, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh. Here's some of Mark's books. What are we sitting here?

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Speaker 1: Right front. Right here, we got in front of me,

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Speaker 1: I got shot all the hell Jesse James, the Northfield

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Speaker 1: Raid and the wild West Greatest Escape. We got brothers

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Speaker 1: of the Gun sitting in front of us. Wider Doc

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Speaker 1: Holliday and a Reckoning and Tombstone also the author of

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Speaker 1: Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade. That sounds very detailed.

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Speaker 4: It's very detailed. I think it's sold like three hundred copies.

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Speaker 4: It's a very specific. It's the definitive book on wagons.

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Speaker 1: That's like, but that's like hard history.

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Speaker 4: Hard history. That's what they call a material culture study.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and explain that to folks real quick, Like

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Speaker 1: what will they learn in that book? Wagons for the same.

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Speaker 4: So they're going to learn what the freight wagons look like,

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Speaker 4: what they were made out of, and how the styles

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Speaker 4: changed from the eighteen twenties up through when the trail

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Speaker 4: ended in eighteen eighty. How many mules you know, what weight?

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Speaker 7: You know they'd.

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Speaker 4: Averaged six pounds or three tons, I mean, you know

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Speaker 4: the dimensions. All from primary sources, newspaper accounts. And it

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Speaker 4: was actually the first study of freight wagons, and it

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Speaker 4: came about because the Santa Fe Traill has made a

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Speaker 4: National Historic Trail by the Park Service. But it's also

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Speaker 4: the only book on Santa Fe Trail freight wagons.

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Speaker 1: So you got to hell on a Fast Horse, The

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Speaker 1: Untold Story of Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett. That's

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Speaker 1: a good one. We talked about shot all the hell.

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Speaker 1: You got a book on Roosevelt.

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Speaker 4: I do on the rough Riders.

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Speaker 1: Rough Riders, Theodore Roosevelt, his Cowboy Regiment, and the Immortal

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Speaker 1: Charge up San Juan Hill. And a book on one

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Speaker 1: of my personal favorite subjects. I'm kind of a little

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Speaker 1: big horned Edmund Fitzgerald. Guy, Okay, I think I might

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Speaker 1: do a shirt where it's the Edmund Fitzgerald but custers

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Speaker 1: on it bringing everything again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it would be the only shirt like that in

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Speaker 4: the world.

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Speaker 1: That that book. I haven't read years on this, but

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Speaker 1: i'd like to The Earth is all that lasts? Crazy

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Speaker 1: Horse sitting Bowl in the Last Stand of the Great

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Speaker 1: Sux Nation? Does that cover like this the Summer of

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Speaker 1: seventy six?

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean I have a whole chapter on

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Speaker 4: just the battle itself, but it's there. It's their life story.

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Speaker 4: It's a dual biography of both these Lakota leaders. But

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Speaker 4: but yeah, I have a lot of information about the battle,

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Speaker 4: and I just stopped there on the way up here.

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Speaker 1: Actually yesterday, isn't it haunted? Mass It's haunted, dude. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those few places speaking of like like if

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Speaker 1: you're in Whitefish Bay, you can feel the Edmund Fitzgerald,

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Speaker 1: if you're on Last Stand Hill, you can feel it.

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Speaker 1: It's like you can feel it. I cried on Last

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Speaker 1: Stand Hill first time I went there. I went there

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Speaker 1: on the anniversary. Oh my buddy Seth got married on

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Speaker 1: the anniversary a different time. Oh not him, that's Brody Okay.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, although I got a couple ancestors that were in

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Speaker 5: that battle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. If you look at the dead, Brody's all over there.

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Speaker 4: Oh well, it's a very moving site. I'd completely agree

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Speaker 4: with you. I mean, especially if you're if you can

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Speaker 4: go there, you know they're open, well they used to

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Speaker 4: be who knows now, but they used to be open

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Speaker 4: till uh dust the sunset and nobody's there then and

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Speaker 4: you just stand on a Last Dan Hill or go

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Speaker 4: to Reno Hill. You know, it's just a very moving

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Speaker 4: h you know, just a neat experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of suffering that day. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the thing you can't get over is just the absolute

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Speaker 1: exuberance that must have been felt by the Northern Cheyenne

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Speaker 1: in the Sux to be like just after like all

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Speaker 1: these just stunning defeats and massacres, to just that one day,

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Speaker 1: one time, just well and bring it to them, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, how good for them, How

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Speaker 1: good that day must have felt.

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Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. But also it was a

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Speaker 4: tremendous relief. I mean, these soldiers had come to kill them.

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Speaker 4: I mean they had families and children in the village,

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Speaker 4: and they had protected I mean, that was the reason

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Speaker 4: they were fighting. It wasn't just to get a victory

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Speaker 4: over the white man. But those soldiers were gonna hurt them,

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Speaker 4: and they were protecting their families and their mothers and sisters.

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Speaker 4: And they did it. And then there's all this booty

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Speaker 4: they got, you know, springfield carbines and cult revolvers. Of course,

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Speaker 4: sitting Bull had warned them in his vision that they

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Speaker 4: weren't supposed to take anything from the soldiers, and if

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Speaker 4: they did, it would mean they're doom. But they disobeyed

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Speaker 4: the vision, and some Lakotas field that that was the

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Speaker 4: downfall of their people. But yeah, the vision told him,

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Speaker 4: do not take booty, do not take souvenirs or whatever.

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Speaker 4: But how could you help, you know, not help. There's

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Speaker 4: all this stuff, ammunition and the horses and so, yeah,

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Speaker 4: they took plenty of booty.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever read the account of Wooden Leg.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the best accounts shining accounts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he like he leaves the battlefield. He like face scalped.

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Speaker 1: A guy at the battlefield tried to give it to

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Speaker 1: his mom or grandma. She didn't want it, like a

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Speaker 1: side burned scalp splits. They all take off the cavalry.

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Speaker 1: The other the survivors, the surviving cavalry guys come up.

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Speaker 1: They like scour the whole battlefield, bury everyone. Wooden Leg

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Speaker 1: and his buddies go off to the west to go

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Speaker 1: hunt for crow Indians they like. They don't find any crow.

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Speaker 1: They find like one family and decide not to kill

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Speaker 1: him for some reason. He hasn't explained why they decided

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Speaker 1: not to kill him. And then they come back to

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Speaker 1: the battlefield to get stuff that they remember that they

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Speaker 1: didn't grab at the time, to like, if I remember right,

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Speaker 1: there should be a few shells over here, or I remember,

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Speaker 1: like I threw a belt down in the bushes there,

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Speaker 1: and they like were kind of like coming back through

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Speaker 1: looking for stuff just wild.

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Speaker 4: Well, they were finding stuff at the battle. I mean

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Speaker 4: for decades. I mean they were still finding stuff that

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Speaker 4: had been lost. And you know, maybe an royal washes

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Speaker 4: out and they find a canteen and one guy, I

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Speaker 4: mean this was involved a court case. It was like

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Speaker 4: maybe in the nineteen sixties or seventies found a pair

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Speaker 4: of binoculars, you kid, Yeah, and then of course he

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Speaker 4: told people about it and he was arrested. It was

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Speaker 4: a huge no kid, Yeah, you're not supposed to take anything, sure,

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Speaker 4: the National Park Service sites or federal land.

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Speaker 1: So have you read Plainsmen of the Yellowstone.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but it's been a long time so.

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Speaker 1: It's a hell of a book. But there's an interesting take. Like,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I've always been a big, little, big

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Speaker 1: horn buff, you know, and Plainsmen of the Yellowstone he

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Speaker 1: treats it like he's like a lot of like to

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Speaker 1: summarize his view, he's like, you know, everybody loves it,

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Speaker 1: everybody writes books about it. It didn't matter. It was

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Speaker 1: a non event. It was a non event. This all

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Speaker 1: lands where it was gonna land where it landed. They

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Speaker 1: were gonna kill them all and bring them onto reservations,

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Speaker 1: and they did. And it's a non event. It was

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Speaker 1: just nothing like if you look at like what actually matters,

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Speaker 1: He's like, it's just it's a thing that historians love

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Speaker 1: to talk about. What it didn't matter.

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Speaker 4: The only reason it's it's huge, of course, is because

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Speaker 4: the guy that was killed George Custer, right, I mean

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Speaker 4: the Civil War, I mean truly an amazing soldier to

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Speaker 4: Civil War. I mean, he earned all the accolades that

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Speaker 4: he got, and he's this darling you know the American

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Speaker 4: Army and Michigan man. Yeah yeah, yeah he uh, the

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Speaker 4: Michigan Brigade, the fighting Wolverines, all that stuff. So but anyway, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, if if it had been some other officer,

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Speaker 4: maybe it wouldn't have been as big a deal or

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Speaker 4: as covered as widely as it was. But it was Custer,

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Speaker 4: you know, the guy that had this amazing reputation. He

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Speaker 4: had fought Indians before at the Washitas, so you know

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Speaker 4: the story about they no one knew who he was,

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Speaker 4: that the La Cosaa giants didn't know it was that's contested.

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Speaker 1: It is contest a little bit, but some of the

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Speaker 1: women and that there's a Southern Cheyenne woman that was

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Speaker 1: visiting and was there. She said she recognized him.

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Speaker 4: She did this, that's in my book. Actually, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: she she they were going to scalp and mutilate him

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Speaker 4: and she said, no, no, stop, that's that's he's the

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Speaker 4: husband of Mona Sita, who you know. She claimed that

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Speaker 4: Custer had buried.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, and it was her that took the sewing all, yes,

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Speaker 1: and punctured his ear drums.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, because that goes back to when he after

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Speaker 4: the Washton in Oklahoma, he met with some Chayan leaders

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Speaker 4: and one of the shy leaders dumped some ashes from

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Speaker 4: his pipe, you know, on his boots, and he said

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Speaker 4: that was so that he would remember next you know,

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Speaker 4: he keep his promise that he would not go against

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Speaker 4: their people or whatever. And and so the reason for

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Speaker 4: puncturing the all into his ear drum was so that

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Speaker 4: he would hear better in the other world now.

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Speaker 1: And I think she said maybe I kicked dirt up

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Speaker 1: on him with my horse. I think that's something she said.

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Speaker 1: She was like speculating that could have happened, but you know.

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Speaker 4: He was he wasn't apparently, you know, he had like

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Speaker 4: a finger tip cut off, and but he wasn't mutilated

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Speaker 4: like all the other bodies. I mean, Tom Custer was

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Speaker 4: just unrecognizable. And the idea behind that was that in

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Speaker 4: the Land of Ghost, you know, what you did to

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Speaker 4: them in this world, that's how they would be in

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Speaker 4: the Land of Ghost.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that move of like slash, make it so

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Speaker 1: you can't run, sure, yeah, make it so you can't

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Speaker 1: shoot your ugly, make so you can't make love.

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Speaker 4: Right, So, but no, he was apparently it was very

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Speaker 4: you know, yeah, in good shape.

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Speaker 1: I believe there was two guys that weren't touched. One

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Speaker 1: guy was under a pile of dead horses, so that

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like they found him. And the other guy

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Speaker 1: was Captain Keyo. And Captain Keo had on a he

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Speaker 1: was some I don't know, some like branch of Cathalois

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Speaker 1: and I can't remember, that's right, Yeah, And he had

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Speaker 1: on he had on some kind of emblem, some kind

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Speaker 1: of jewelry that and all this stuff is like it's

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Speaker 1: everybody contradicts everybody, you know, I mean, it's like so

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Speaker 1: and so said this. So and so says that, so

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Speaker 1: and so says no one recognized them. So and so

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Speaker 1: says they recognized them. Either way, he had this thing

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Speaker 1: on this this religious peace.

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Speaker 4: I think he was in a papal guard at one

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Speaker 4: time or something. And it might have been they had

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Speaker 4: to do with that.

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Speaker 1: In't anyways, They're like he might be They felt that

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Speaker 1: he might be some kind of religious figure and didn't

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Speaker 1: messle them.

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Speaker 4: Well, he was a highly respected officer. He was one

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Speaker 4: of the more well liked officers in the seventh Cavalry.

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Speaker 1: I think his horse is the only thing that survived Comanche.

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Speaker 4: Well, the Lakotas and Chyenne survive.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, only like the only I shouldn't see the only

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Speaker 1: thing that survive. What am I trying to say.

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Speaker 4: Of the men with Custer and their horses? I guess

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Speaker 4: they wound up stuffing that horse and then they did.

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Speaker 4: You could go see it in Lawrence, Kansas. Is that

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Speaker 4: it's a the Natural History Museum. Yes, oh yeah, and

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Speaker 4: they've not too long ago they kind of refurbished Comanche.

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Speaker 4: But no, yeah, so he's there because he was at

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Speaker 4: Fort Riley in his last years in Kansas. And uh

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Speaker 4: and yeah, he's fully it's mounted, and he's got a

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Speaker 4: you know McClellan saddle, and uh yeah, yeah, and uh.

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Speaker 1: He had some arrow holes in him and some bullet

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Speaker 1: bullet holes. I think crippled up pretty he was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he was, but apparently he was. They

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Speaker 4: felt he would survive. He was in good enough shape,

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Speaker 4: so uh yeah, so they they made sure they kept him,

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Speaker 4: took him back.

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Speaker 1: This has nothing to do with that. We'll get on

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Speaker 1: with this in the meant But when after all the

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Speaker 1: buffalo were killed off, we were talking about this in

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Speaker 1: our Hide Hunters thing. After all the buffalo were killed off,

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Speaker 1: you know, horn to Day came out to do to

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Speaker 1: put together museum collection. And he comes out and starts

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Speaker 1: scouring the country between the Yellowstone, Missouri and eastern Montana,

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Speaker 1: trying to find museum specimens works. His ass off. Can't

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Speaker 1: find any. But the biggest bull he finds that he

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Speaker 1: kills for the museum. He kills it. It's already carrying

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Speaker 1: four slugs in it. Oh wow, yeah, already carrying them.

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Speaker 1: So they can put up with something.

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Speaker 4: You know, Theodore Roosevelt went into the bad lands, he

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Speaker 4: would just had to kill a buffalo, you know, and

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Speaker 4: later he becomes you know, later he's wanting to preserve

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Speaker 4: the buffalo. But he did it after after he got

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Speaker 4: his buffalo.

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Speaker 1: Him, he's like, yeah, preservation stars. Now he killed two.

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Speaker 1: The second one he regretted a little bit. I think

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Speaker 1: he killed one uh Medora, right outside of Manora, then

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Speaker 1: killed one outside the park somewhere. I believe, didn't he.

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Speaker 1: Randall Rail's got PhD in history. Do you got one

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Speaker 1: of those?

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Speaker 4: No? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: His is right up there. It's a smaller one underneath

349
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Speaker 1: my very big one.

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Speaker 4: Oh nice, nice.

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Speaker 1: Think of that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's almost like a to scare replica.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know why you have that there, because

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Speaker 1: because like guests like you come in will get intimidated.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, you'd be like, oh the big guns. Now

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Speaker 1: yours is a nice frame.

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Speaker 4: Yeah you large it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I just photo.

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Speaker 4: Large it.

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Speaker 1: I want to get into your books. But can we

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Speaker 1: hit you with some because when you did that thing

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Speaker 1: for Wired where you answer Old West quest Yes, can

363
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Speaker 1: we hit you with some Old West questions?

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Speaker 4: Mold worst questions. I don't know if I'll have the answer,

365
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Speaker 4: but I'll try.

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Speaker 1: Is there any reason to believe? Is there any reason

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Speaker 1: whatsoever to believe that people would Uh. Any is there

368
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Speaker 1: like a famous case example of someone getting shot and

369
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Speaker 1: falling over a balcony rail like that is like trope

370
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 1: of Westerns. I can't Is there like a famous story

371
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: that inspires all those scenes?

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Speaker 4: Nothing famous. I mean there may be you know, this

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Speaker 4: may have happened sometime in the Old West, but I'm

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Speaker 4: not aware of any famous.

375
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Speaker 1: So just they just like it and it became like

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Speaker 1: a it became a trope, and.

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Speaker 4: I think, so yeah, yeah, now I'll probably get lots

378
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 4: of emails. Yeah, oh yeah, you know Frank James knocked

379
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Speaker 4: that guy off the balcony. No, I don't know of

380
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 4: any famous case.

381
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Speaker 1: Were those doors, the swinging doors? Was that a thing?

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Speaker 4: Well, I got in trouble for that, so I didn't

383
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Speaker 4: think it was.

384
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Speaker 5: What are they call him batwing doors?

385
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 4: Yes, and I you know, I look at historic photos

386
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 4: and could not find, you know, these swinging doors, but

387
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 4: apparently they were used late in the nineteenth century. But

388
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 4: for instance's an episode with Doc Holliday and it gets

389
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 4: really nerdy. But you know, Doc Holliday got into a gunfight,

390
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 4: a minor gunfight in Leadville and it's in this saloon

391
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 4: and it talks about this guy walking in the door,

392
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Speaker 4: you know, so it's like, well, it wasn't you know

393
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Speaker 4: these swinging doors he walked in the door. Yeah, and

394
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Speaker 4: it had glass in it.

395
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Speaker 1: So they don't picture anyone knock here.

396
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Speaker 7: No.

397
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, But anyway, but apparently there were, you know, late

398
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century, you did start to see them introduced,

399
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 4: and the idea was behind it. They didn't want like

400
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 4: children looking in being able to see, and you know

401
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 4: in the summertime that's so it kind of blocks their

402
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 4: view and also let some air in because I'm sure

403
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 4: it was filled full of cigar smoke.

404
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,719
Speaker 6: And I was going to say, it seems like a seasonable,

405
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 6: a seasonal yeah style.

406
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Speaker 4: And then a lot of these salute that had the

407
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Speaker 4: swinging doors, they had both doors. They had a door

408
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 4: you could close, but also they had to swinging doors

409
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 4: as well. So, like you say, in a little privacy screen,

410
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 4: it's kind of a privacy screen. Yeah, But I just

411
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Speaker 4: don't see it prevalent, like in the eighteen seventies Dodge

412
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 4: City or Wichita. I just I have not seen any

413
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 4: evidence that it was.

414
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: That's a good to look at all those old photos

415
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: and didn't see them or not exactly.

416
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and go through the newspaper account. I mean you

417
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 4: could even go through advertisements in historic newspapers and oh yeah,

418
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 4: here's the new swinging door. You need it for your

419
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 4: saloon or whatever.

420
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Speaker 1: But that doesn't this or it does exist.

421
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 4: Well, it does exist. Oh the mean the ads ads. No,

422
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 4: I have not come across. But apparently there are patents

423
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 4: for these kind of spring loaded hinges. I haven't seen them,

424
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 4: but I've been told that there's actually patents that were done.

425
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 4: So if they swing back and for I mean, you

426
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 4: would have to have something, you know, to make it

427
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Speaker 4: do that.

428
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: I guess if I ever built a house some scratch

429
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: or do a big remodel, I was already planning on

430
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: putting in a urinal. Okay, do them damn doors there

431
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: you go? Yeah, okay, huh, well.

432
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 5: Kind of yearnal like a trough or like like like

433
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 5: a communal one or.

434
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: What's kind of their alone, Yeah, next to the toilet.

435
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 4: I've actually been in restrooms and houses that had those

436
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 4: swinging doors or whatever.

437
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

438
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but see, I want to create tension. We're

439
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a very modern home, old swinging doors

440
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: all right, do you know what I mean? Like it'll

441
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: like like it creates a power balance between the two

442
00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 1: motifs for the bedroom. That would be good, right, yeah, yeah,

443
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: okay Rin Krin was saying, you got some insights into

444
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 1: you got some insights into cowboy hats. Yes, oh okay,

445
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: cowboy hats.

446
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 4: What do you want to know?

447
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 1: Like did everybody Okay, let's got yeah, Like what would

448
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: you regard to be? I know you've said in the past,

449
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: someone said, like when did the wild West end? And

450
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: you thought the wild West ended with the car?

451
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 4: I when when you don't see horses on the streets anymore,

452
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 4: that seems to me that that era is gone, you know,

453
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 4: so when.

454
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: When it was like that that you were just pointing out,

455
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 1: there's ways people defined exactly like some people will say

456
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: like barbed wire, right, like the open range closed land

457
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,199
Speaker 1: was owned, it was fenced. The West died and you

458
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: had to you had to take that, like you view

459
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: it like when the horse ceases to be the primary

460
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: mode of transportation.

461
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and it I just think the horse is

462
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 4: so interwoven with the American West. I mean, uh, you know,

463
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 4: cowboys and you know, buggies, you know, and the mules

464
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 4: of course, pulling wagon. I mean when you don't see

465
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 4: that kind of those animals as transportation, I mean, that's

466
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 4: so associated with the West. I mean you don't have

467
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 4: a cowboy without a horse. Yeah, I mean there's no

468
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 4: cowboys that are just afoot. I mean they're on horseback.

469
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 4: And same with the planes Indians. I mean their mobility

470
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 4: is because of the horse, and so when the horse

471
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: is not part of that fabric, I just see that

472
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 4: as kind of the end of what you could call

473
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: the Old West. Now you could argue, is that nineteen thirties,

474
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 4: I mean nineteen forties, because you know he's in some

475
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: places of Wyoming and Montana. I'm sure people are still

476
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 4: riding their horses into town. Sure in the nineteen forties,

477
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 4: maybe even the fifties.

478
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all like working on the Manhattan Project and

479
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: dudes are riding around on horses.

480
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 8: Sure, twenty minutes from here, I saw a guy get

481
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 8: off his horse and go to Stacy's right in Geluton Gateway.

482
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: Was he being cute?

483
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 4: No think I.

484
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 8: Think he had the proper jeans and the proper boots,

485
00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 8: so I don't.

486
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 5: And his driver's license was suspended.

487
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: I like to play that game.

488
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 6: Whenever we see an adult on a bicycle.

489
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: What are those little scooter you know, those little like

490
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: hover hoverboard. Yeah, but there's no handlebars on one of

491
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 1: those are called hoverboardsboards? Yeah, their day just not far

492
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: from here. On Kagi is the guy going down the

493
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: road on one of those with a white cowboy hat

494
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: on the phone.

495
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 8: Taking a picture of that and sent it to us

496
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 8: CRUI No.

497
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: He wasn't like no, I was the world wasn't a

498
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: hipster vibe. Let's get more of a crazy guy just

499
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: like everything about it. I was like a local eccentric. Yeah,

500
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying to weigh stereotypes to the reality real quick.

501
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: Just gy have a handful of these. You go to,

502
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: let's pick a your eighteen seventy Okay, is it really

503
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: like in eighteen seventies? It really There is the wide

504
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: brimmed hat, and that's like it. No, everyone all men

505
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: wear a hat, and all men wear a cowboy style hat.

506
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think so, No, No, I don't. I mean,

507
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 4: you know, your cowboys in the seventies, they're gonna have

508
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 4: some kind of a wide brimmed hat. But I think

509
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: that they're if you look at historic photos there's a

510
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 4: lot of variety even into how they wear them. I mean,

511
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: you know some guys have their hats tilted up. Yeah,

512
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: you know, the lily crowns are creased. I mean, there's

513
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 4: just a lot of difference. Uh So, I just don't

514
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 4: think you can say there's one standard. You can probably

515
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 4: look at what's work.

516
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the broader family of like like

517
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: a hat with a body of a hat and then

518
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: a wide circular brim.

519
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 6: Yes, a hat that a tourist would buy on vacation.

520
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's pretty standard.

521
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: It's like like when you leave home in eighteen seventy,

522
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: if you're a man, you're not bald at you like,

523
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: you're not hatless.

524
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: No, no, no, the hat is yeah, very common. Now

525
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 4: a little bit later you have the introduction of the

526
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: bowler hat, the Derby hat or whatever. And there was

527
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 4: a story about in Tombstone if somebody came in wearing

528
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 4: a Derby hat, that Doc Holliday would go around with

529
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 4: the triangle, ringing a bell behind him and kind of

530
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: harassing them or whatever because they stuck out.

531
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: You know, they were a little bit What was he calling

532
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: them out about.

533
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 4: I think because they were like a newbie or like

534
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 4: a dude or you know, it's just maybe a little

535
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 4: uppity or something or this kind of latest fashion, and

536
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: so he's going around. But you know, apparently he was

537
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 4: reported as word a Derby hat later a few years later.

538
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 4: So I don't know how if that looks like it's

539
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 4: a bowldy, you see, I'm true.

540
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: Like a lot of the later gunfighters had those kind.

541
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 5: Of well often there's like an English villain in the

542
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 5: kind of movies that wears a.

543
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 4: Bold yeah, and you know bat maaster Center. I think

544
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 4: there's a photo of him wearing a Derby hat, you know,

545
00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 4: later in his.

546
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 5: Career, where slip on cowboy boots with jangly metal spurs

547
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 5: that announce their presence.

548
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 4: Well, they definitely wore cowboy boots, you know, and they

549
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 4: could go up to the knee. There's different styles of

550
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 4: those boots. One of the more interesting to me is

551
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: what they call a mulear boot. Have you heard of this?

552
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 4: So on the sides, instead of having the leather loops

553
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 4: that you would pull, there's a long leather strap on

554
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 4: each side that you could grab onto and pull you

555
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 4: and they called a muliar boots.

556
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: You can just just a strap, not a loop, just a.

557
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 4: Strap, Yeah, a long strap maybe like that long that

558
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: you would grab hold of. Those were fairly popular.

559
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: And then you tuck them inside.

560
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 4: No, you leave them on the outside. They're flapping on

561
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 4: the outside.

562
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: Oh, hence the name muleers.

563
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And I you know, there's different theories, uh

564
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 4: in the I mean these boots, you know, they could

565
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 4: they could be very tall. They go up to the

566
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,479
Speaker 4: knee or whatever, and you're out on the range and

567
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 4: their boots are sweaty when you take them off at night,

568
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 4: they get wet, and you know it might be a

569
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 4: little nicer to have something to really grab hold of

570
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 4: to pull those on.

571
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

572
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 4: You know the story of Billy the kid the night

573
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 4: he was killed and he was in his stocking feet,

574
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 4: and a lot of people think that, oh, you know,

575
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: he would never walk across that parade ground and his

576
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 4: stocking feet, and and it's like, do you want to

577
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 4: pull your boots back on after you've taken them off

578
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 4: You've been in them all day, and no, it might

579
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 4: be easier to walk over here, across the corner and

580
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 4: get that slab of meat and just leave the boots behind.

581
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: So you know, when he went over when Billy the

582
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: Kid went over to get a chunk of meat off

583
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: that thing, Like, what was the sort of situation, Like,

584
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: is it just sort of matter of course that there's

585
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: a there's a side of beef hanging in the courtyard.

586
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 4: Well, no, it's not a matter of course, but he

587
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: had been told. So he gets in really late to

588
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 4: this house at fourt summer, this adobe building, and he's hungry.

589
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 4: And the woman in the house, who is Pat Garritt's

590
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 4: sister in law, Billy the Kid's girlfriend. Though there's some

591
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 4: dispute on whether she was the girlfriend. The family says

592
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: that they were not boyfriend girlfriend, so we don't know

593
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: for sure, but he was staying there and she had

594
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 4: a husband he was there too, But anyway, she tells

595
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: him that there's a sight of beef hanging over at

596
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: Pete Maxwell's place. So that's why he goes over there

597
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: with the butcher knife and his gun because if he

598
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 4: gets the meat, she was gonna cook it up for him.

599
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 4: And then that's where, you know, he meets Garrett's two

600
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 4: guards or deputies i should say, are outside and they

601
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 4: don't know what they don't know what Billy the Kid

602
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 4: looks like, and They just they think he's a ranch

603
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 4: hand or he works for Pete Maxwell. But as soon

604
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: as Billy approaches them, he sees these guys in the

605
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 4: shadows and he pulls his gun right away, and he's

606
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: going ke and s ke and s you know who

607
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: is it? And John Poe, one of the deputies, is saying, Okay,

608
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 4: calm down, friend, you know we're not gonna hurt you

609
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: or whatever you and but they don't know it's Billy.

610
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: And that's when he gets up on the porch. She

611
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: backs into the room. Pat Garrett is on the side

612
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 4: of Maxwell's bed and he recognizes Billy's voice, as does

613
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: Pete Maxwell. He says, that's him and Pat Garrett. Now

614
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: here's the thing. You know, people are on Pat Garrett's like,

615
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 4: oh you shot. You didn't give Billy a chance to

616
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 4: kill you?

617
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: You know.

618
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 4: Well, you know, Billy the kid had said he was

619
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 4: gonna kill Pat Garrett the next time he saw him,

620
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: and he'd already killed a Lincoln County sheriff in a

621
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 4: Lincoln County deputy. And why would Pat Garrett give this

622
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 4: guy a chance? You know? It's like it was Billy

623
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: the kids. So he shoots right away. Sure, the first

624
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 4: shot gets him in the heart. Uh, and then he

625
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: fires a second shot. You know, there's there's it's a

626
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 4: moonlit night. But if you fired a Colt revolver, black

627
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 4: powder smoke, I mean this smoke fills the room. And

628
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: so he fires right away, you know, you want to

629
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: make sure he got him. Of course, Billy had already

630
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 4: clasped by then he runs out and Pete Maxwell runs out,

631
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: and they almost shoot Pete Maxwell, the deputies because you know,

632
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: these guys are outside, they hear a gunshot and they

633
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: don't know what's going on, and anyway, and don't don't

634
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: shoot that's Pete, you know whatever. And then they get

635
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: a they light a candle, put it in the window,

636
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 4: and they see his body inside and they've got Billy

637
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 4: the Kid. But but anyway Pat Garrett was saying, is

638
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 4: pet Grett wrote a book later called The Authentic Life

639
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 4: of Billy the Kid, and he says, people, if accused

640
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: me of hiding behind a cat couch, and he says,

641
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 4: if third bit of couch I would have been hiding

642
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: behind it, why would I You know, I'm not an idiot,

643
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: you know.

644
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but that whole thing of like being a

645
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: chivalrous around shooting. I mean the way we hit dudes

646
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 1: now we do it from outer space.

647
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, well this is.

648
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you know, you're just driving down

649
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: the road your car. You know, it's not like someone

650
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: comes on. It's like stick them up, yeah, or.

651
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 4: In your boat.

652
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

653
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 4: But well here's Steve. Here's the thing about that. It's like,

654
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: and I think what's so amazing about White Herb. I

655
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: mean most of his job, or a lot of his job,

656
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 4: was disarming drunken cowboys. I mean there were these laws

657
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 4: in these towns, you know, whether it was Wichita or

658
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 4: Dodge City, you can't carry a gun. And so today,

659
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 4: I mean you can go to YouTube and if a

660
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: policeman sees a gun, they shout gun and the fireworks start.

661
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 4: You know, I mean, you're gonna be dead. But Wider

662
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 4: went up to these guys and he would physically disarmed

663
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: then and usually his technique he was hit him in

664
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 4: the head with the you know, the barrel of his revolver.

665
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: But he was so close quarters time and again in

666
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: disarming these guys. And you know, he had no training.

667
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: There was no police academy. Then the goat no, you know,

668
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 4: there was nobody knew about karate or whatever. I mean,

669
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 4: It's like he had to physically disarm him. And I

670
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: tell you, lots of officers got killed disarming cowboys. So

671
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: ed Masterson, he was the sheriff or the Marshall and

672
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 4: Dodge City. He was killed disarming a cowboy.

673
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: Fred he.

674
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: Was a brother, Fred White and Tombstone. And if you

675
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: saw the movie, you know you see where Curly Bill

676
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 4: kills you know, Fred White was trying to disarm and

677
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 4: he grabbed the gun and pulled it towards him, and

678
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: the gun goes off and he gets a mortal wound.

679
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 4: So it was a very dangerous thing to be a

680
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 4: law officer disarming cowboys. And they didn't do it at

681
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 4: a distance, you know, they did it up close. Bat

682
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: Masterson said, Whiter was the bravest man he'd ever known.

683
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 4: He showed no fear whatsoever, and he survived. He never

684
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 4: got wounded, I mean, which is kind of bizarre too.

685
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: So what do you what do you take of the

686
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: I see here that Wyatt's six shooters up for sale

687
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: right now? Yes, okay, yeah, it's being auction. Yeah, I

688
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: haven't pulled up the link yet.

689
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, well you know it's Uh, it's one of those

690
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 4: things where the auction says it comes with a binder

691
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: full of providence, and the providence is this, So this.

692
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: One I'm looking at sight right, Okay.

693
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 4: So this man was a friend of whiteb and also

694
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 4: a friend of Josephine. But who is White's wife's forty five? Yes,

695
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 4: and it was purchased in They have the cult letter.

696
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: So it was purchased in Los Angeles at a store

697
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 4: in nineteen twenty two. WHITEERB doesn't die till nineteen twenty nine.

698
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: So this man who is a friend of Wyatt, he dies,

699
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 4: but then his son remains close to Josephine, Wyatt's wife,

700
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 4: and the son got the revolve and then he told

701
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 4: his children Josephine told me that this was Wyatt's gun.

702
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 4: So we don't have a letter from Josephine saying it's

703
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 4: why it's gun. We have this guy's word, the son

704
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 4: of the man who was a friend and their children,

705
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 4: the grandchildren are saying, you know, here's our you know,

706
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 4: and they signed notarized statements and all that kind of thing.

707
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 4: But also, I mean, Josephine was known to acquire a

708
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 4: gun or two and claim that it belonged to Wyatt.

709
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: You know.

710
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 4: Jesse James's mom did the same thing. She would buy

711
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 4: guns and oh yeah, this belonged to my son, and

712
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 4: she ah, and she would make money. She actually this

713
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 4: is funny. So they would they would sell at Jesse

714
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 4: james grave. He was very next to the house there

715
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 4: in cart near Carney initially, and they would sell pebbles

716
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 4: from the grave of Jesse.

717
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: I'd buy one of those.

718
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 4: Oh I would too. But then when they ran out

719
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 4: of pebbles, they went to the creek and got more

720
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 4: pebbles and put up on the grave. So I get

721
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 4: you know, it's still from his grave, but it might

722
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 4: wasn't there a long time? A short time. So every

723
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 4: white erp gun, there's a question on providence. I mean,

724
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 4: it's you're just not sure. And to me, it may

725
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 4: very well be true. You know, that story may be true.

726
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 4: But like I said, I you know anymore, uh, anymore,

727
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 4: you would almost have to have somebody dig up white

728
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 4: and put the gun out of his grave to say,

729
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, that was for sure.

730
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 8: Uh.

731
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 4: And it's the same thing with all of these Old

732
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 4: West figures and outlaws. And there's such a big money

733
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: involved in One of the bangs of a historian's existence

734
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 4: is that courthouses have been rated of documents with white

735
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: Earth any.

736
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Earth versus just the documents valuable.

737
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean they'll clip the signatures and and uh.

738
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: And I know of the case is when I was

739
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 4: researching this book that you know white Earp's you know

740
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 4: certificate where he commissioned is a law a lawman in Missouri.

741
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 4: Nobody knows where it is. Fortunately there's a there's a

742
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 4: microfilm copy of it. But people have gone in and

743
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 4: these county courthouses that are not well protected or secured,

744
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 4: especially the remote ones Lincoln County, New Mexico, a lot

745
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 4: of government legal documents with Pat Garrett's name on it

746
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 4: have been stolen. In fact, a few years ago there

747
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 4: was a collection. It was offered at auction and the

748
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 4: state of New Mexico went in and then they were

749
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 4: county records. I mean there were legal government documents, and

750
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 4: they approached the auction company and said these belonged to

751
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 4: us and the family. In order to avoid they just

752
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 4: donated him back to the state. And here's the thing

753
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 4: people should know, Steve, is that if it's a government document,

754
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 4: it never ceases to be a government document. Even if

755
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 4: you found it at the dump, it's still a government document.

756
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 4: So something comes up for sale that's a league like

757
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 4: a land patent or whatever it is. If it's a county,

758
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 4: you know, like a warrant for arrest or whatever, don't

759
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 4: buy it because you know it doesn't belong to the public.

760
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: It belongs to that county or the state or wherever

761
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 4: it can from. But a lot of collectors he just

762
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 4: can't resist. Oh, I gotta have this. It's got Pat

763
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 4: Garrett's signature on or whatever. But anyway, it makes a

764
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 4: historian's life a nightmare because you know, it's removing the

765
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 4: historical record, and so we're missing chunks of information because

766
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,479
Speaker 4: these documents ended up in private hands that are taken

767
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 4: out of these courthouses, and then sometimes they're you know,

768
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 4: they're destroyed or lost or whatever, so we don't even

769
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: know what we're missing. So it makes it really really tough.

770
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: I got a buddy, well he's dead now, but he

771
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: was a very well known arrowhead hunter. He's kind of

772
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: like an outlaw turned good arrowhead hunter. He was down

773
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: in Colorado. He'd been an oil he'd been an oil engineer,

774
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: oil executive. I came here with he like came up

775
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: through engineering, became an executive, but was a big arrowhead

776
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: hunter and then turned legit, started volunteering for site surveys

777
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Anyhow, I was driving around him one day

778
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: in New Mexico and he's telling me a story. He

779
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: he's at some kind of a state sail or yard

780
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: sale or something or another, and he sees a fulsome

781
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: point bolo tie, Oh wow, and like something about the

782
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: patination on it, like he knew it was a foalsome point.

783
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: It wasn't a fake, Like he just looked. He said,

784
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: I looked at it, and I knew what I was

785
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: looking at. That was a falsome point glued to the

786
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: just like you got on right, Okay. I wish I

787
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: remember where it came from. He telled me the whole story.

788
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: He buys it for next to nothing, peels that falsome

789
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: point off there and on it is still the museum

790
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: coding number.

791
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

792
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: And he found the home for it.

793
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 4: Oh nice.

794
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: Somebody just walked away and it was like, rolls it

795
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: over and it's like I'm making this up, like a

796
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: zero one one nine or something where they do like

797
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: white out and then put a thing on there and

798
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: then and then like nail polish over.

799
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: It or whatever. Yeah, No, that's that's the boy stuff.

800
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: Well, it's just like like you're saying, like people was walking. Yeah.

801
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 4: Well, you know, my wife was a curator at the

802
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 4: City of Colorad Springs Museum several years ago and she

803
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 4: had a woman come in and it was with a

804
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 4: Van Bige Vanbrigil vase and Van Bergel was a very

805
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 4: well known early pottery maker in Colorado Springs. So anyway,

806
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 4: she brings it in because she wanted my wife to

807
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 4: give her some information on it. Well, my wife takes it,

808
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 4: looks at the bottom and there's an accession number on

809
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 4: it and it's from their museum, and my wife's my

810
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 4: wife says, this is an accession number. The lady grabbed

811
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 4: it out of her hands and ran out of the buildings. Yeah,

812
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 4: she got it like a yard sale or something. But anyway,

813
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 4: they tracked her down and a lawyers were involved, but

814
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 4: we got they got the vase bag. But no, it's

815
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 4: like the lady, I mean, she did not want to

816
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 4: hear this. I mean because those pots, those faces. It

817
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 4: was probably like a thirty or forty thousand dollars van

818
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 4: brigle Vase. But no, she rap it and took off.

819
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 4: It's like I'm out of here, you know.

820
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: Uh. The other day, a couple weekends go, I was

821
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: at my buddy's wedding down in New Mexico, Jeremy Romero.

822
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: He's getting married. I you know his wife, Shannon. I

823
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: saw it. Never clicked her made family's names and all

824
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: that in her background, Like I mostly know him. Anyways,

825
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: in the in the whatever the hell the ceremony, they

826
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: throw a nod to Grandpa Art mm hmmmmm yeah, And

827
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: I said, do you mean like the later when you're

828
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: supposed to say congratulations? Later we're supposed to congratulations. I'm like,

829
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: does that mean like the IRPs? And she didn't know

830
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: where everybody fit with, like the irt family.

831
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 4: Suddenly he became very interested.

832
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, does anyone have any objections to this union? Actually,

833
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: more of a question here got perked up during the ceremony. So,

834
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: so you your new book Wider Doc Holliday and a

835
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: reckoning in Tombstone. Oh, let me hitt you with this

836
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: one further. Do you feel that what Doc Holliday, that

837
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: the script was wrong? They screwed the script up in Tombstone.

838
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: Doc Holladay should have been saying, I'll be your huckle bearer.

839
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 4: That's that's an urban legend, huckle bearer. Oh yeah it is, Yeah.

840
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: That's what I I didn't say, that's what it said. No, no,

841
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: check me on answered yeah yeah. But he did it

842
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: like an accusation.

843
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah.

844
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 4: I was not implying that you that you were wrong. True, yeah, no,

845
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 4: it's not. No, no, hell is he talking about? Well

846
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: you can find that. I mean, actually that came up

847
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 4: recently and I looked through newspapers dot com and like

848
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 4: one of the first references is in the eighteen fifties

849
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 4: and it was regarding like so and so we're gonna,

850
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 4: you know, he wants you to be you know, or

851
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 4: have a shooting match. And the guy goes, yeah, I'll

852
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 4: be your huckleberry, Like yeah, but not huckle bearer, No,

853
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 4: not huggle Because.

854
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: The urban legend is that they used to use like

855
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: huckle wood for the rails on a what do you

856
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: call the grave thing, a box a castin that the

857
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: coffin had like handrails, and the handrails they would use

858
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: like huckle wood, like a huckleberry. Well, I don't make

859
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: any sense.

860
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even know what a huckle tree looks like.

861
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: So well it's if it's a huckleberry tree, it's a

862
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: mighty thin ra Yeah.

863
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 4: But no, that's that's that's not true. That's not true.

864
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 4: And I have heard that that story about the huckle bearer,

865
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: but no huckleberry, you know, And.

866
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: What does it mean, I'll be your huckle boy.

867
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 4: Well that means I'm game. But I don't know the

868
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: origins why it's associated with the word huckleberry. But it's

869
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 4: just the implication is, oh, yeah, I'm game, I'm your man.

870
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 1: Or whatever you like out like a trout in like Flynn.

871
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

872
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: Maybe you're looking.

873
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,959
Speaker 6: There's the idea that you're looking for huckleberries.

874
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 4: And what I found and I didn't even I don't

875
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 4: even know.

876
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know if the people spitball in here.

877
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 4: I don't even know if the people that said it

878
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 4: knew what it knew where it came from. And that's

879
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 4: one of those phrases where oh yeah, I'm here, and

880
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 4: people just started using Now. I don't think it was

881
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 4: that common, but it was. It was at least in

882
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 4: the nineteenth century. It was used now I have never

883
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 4: seen Doc Holiday at a contemporary source saying I'm your huckleberry.

884
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 4: But Kevin Jar, the scriptwriter, was a brilliant screw. I mean,

885
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 4: he did research and he really looked at the historical

886
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 4: record and somewhere he came across that phrase, which was brilliant.

887
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 4: You know, I'm your huckleberry. And Val Kilmer did it

888
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 4: exceptionally well. But one of the neat things about the

889
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 4: movie Tonbestone is there are lots I mean, Kevin Jar

890
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 4: found lots of quotes. For instance, uh, you're a daisy

891
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 4: if you have or you're a daisy. That actually is

892
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 4: in the testimony from after the Ok Corral gunfight, Kurt

893
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 4: Russell says, or one of the one of the Earth

894
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 4: says it's a regular slaughter house. Well, that came from

895
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,479
Speaker 4: the diary of John Parson, who is a minor. I mean,

896
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 4: so there's Jar did his research and there's lots of phrases.

897
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 4: And I have to agree with Kurt Russell who said

898
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 4: before that, you know, the thing that stands out about

899
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: Tombstone is all the quotes. It's one of the most

900
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 4: quotable westerns ever.

901
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: You know, you know, you know what, here's a good

902
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: if you're a screenwriter out there listening or an aspiring screenwriter,

903
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: there's a lesson to be learned here. People love to

904
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: quote Full Metal Jacket, Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. Everything

905
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: memorable that anybody says in Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket

906
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: is taken verbatim from Michael Hare's book Dispatches. When he

907
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,919
Speaker 1: was sent to cover the Vietnam War for Esquire magazine,

908
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: and instead of going and doing what everybody else did

909
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: at the time, which is go talk to Wes Moreland

910
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: or like the brass Right and talk about strategy and

911
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: body counts and money spent and money wasted, he just

912
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: went and spent years talking to grunts. And Dispatches is

913
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: about he cruise around with Errol Flint's kit, shean Flynt,

914
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: who's a photographer. He just went around Vietnam everywhere and

915
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: talked to grunts. And so when you read Dispatches, which

916
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: is his account of his time in Vietnam, Kubrick teamed

917
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: up with him. All the quotes how can you shoot

918
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: the women and children? And you don't lead him as much?

919
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 4: Oh God, yes?

920
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: From the movie right, which is from the book it's all.

921
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: It's all stuff dudes say to her hair. Howard Avery

922
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: says his name, it's all stuff people say to him,

923
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: and it's all and it's all those memorable lines from

924
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: from Full Metal Jack. So it's an interesting deal with

925
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: this guy that like those great quotes like I'll like

926
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: I'll be your huckleberry, right becomes just no one knew

927
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: what the hell that mant No, but it's like it's

928
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: because it was the thing.

929
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 4: And it's on T shirts now you can buy a

930
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 4: T shirt that says I'm your huckleberry. But is Michael

931
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 4: here the one that wrote that there's nothing as vicious

932
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 4: as a teenage boy or something like that, or he

933
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 4: might have Yeah, I think that comes from him, or.

934
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: The war kind of killed him in a way. He

935
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: didn't do much, like he reached like his zenith. He

936
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: even explains and the end of Dispatches how hard it

937
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: was to come home because he is from Berkeley, and

938
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: he came home he talked about people would expect him

939
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: to condemn everything, but all he could talk about was

940
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: how beautiful he thought it all was, Like it messed

941
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: him up. He never did much anything. He was like

942
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: the dude that wrote dispatches. You know, like the book

943
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: killed him. It was like true mc capodi, like writing

944
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: in Cold Blood kind of killed him. Talk about wider

945
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: like as a kid or whatever. You don't like, where's

946
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: the guy like that come from.

947
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 4: So he's born in Illinois eighteen forty eight. His father

948
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 4: was a Mexican War veteran very short time, just a

949
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: few months in the Mexican War. But I mean, you know,

950
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 4: it's it's Midwest farming family. His father, you know, ran

951
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 4: a kind of a grocery store in Monmouth, Illinois. Then

952
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 4: they moved to Pella, Iowa. I mean, really, there's nothing

953
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 4: exceptional about his childhood, and there's very few stories about him.

954
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, they talk about schoolyard fights or something.

955
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 4: But what's odd about White Earth is that the only

956
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 4: stories that we really detailed stories about his childhood come

957
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 4: from him when he's dictating. I mean, you would think

958
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 4: somebody in Mama, oh yeah, they live next to us,

959
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 4: the guys that fought at the OK Corral. Yeah, they

960
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 4: were my neighbors, and this is what they did. There's

961
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 4: nothing like that either in Illinois or Iowa. And so

962
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 4: I just find that kind of odd.

963
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: But and he wasn't tangled up in the Civil War thll.

964
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 4: No, his brothers were. He had three brothers that fought

965
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 4: for the North, but he tried to join. Is a

966
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 4: famous story. He was like fourteen years old and he

967
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 4: runs away from home at fourteen. Yeah. Yeah, well his

968
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 4: brothers were in and it's like, you know, so so

969
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 4: different from wars today. Everybody wanted to join. Everybody wanted

970
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 4: to go to war. I mean, you wanted to be

971
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 4: a hero. You wanted to you know and fight, you know,

972
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 4: fight the ReBs and the other side the same thing.

973
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: So U I gotta hold you up on that, Okay,

974
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, not just gonna cough. Oh sure is

975
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: that that? That's like there was there was an enthusiasm

976
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: to fight that war. Oh yeah, I mean well because

977
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: that was that war. That was no joke.

978
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 4: No it was not.

979
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: But you're getting you get involved in that war, you're

980
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: got a very good chance something's gonna happen to you.

981
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 4: Part of it is expectation. I mean, you're you're a

982
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 4: young man, You're expected. You know, you're you're gonna go

983
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 4: to war. You're gonna fight for your country. But also

984
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 4: part of it is is is looked at. I mean,

985
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 4: it's the glory. Uh. You know, Custer gets knocked for

986
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 4: being a glory hunter. But you're not going to advance

987
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 4: in the army unless you get glory, unless you have victories.

988
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 4: You you you win at war. So it was expected.

989
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: And then if you want to seek political office later,

990
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 4: I mean, look at how many generals advanced into political

991
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: office after the war. I mean, it would help your career.

992
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 4: I mean, Grant becomes president, right, I mean, and so

993
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 4: many of them congressmen and senators, and so it was

994
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 4: a whole different mindset in the nineteenth century. And then

995
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 4: everything you read as a kid, well, for instance, Theodore

996
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: Roosevelt born in eighteen fifty nine, all through the Civil War,

997
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 4: I mean he seeing Harper's Weekly and Frank Leslie's and

998
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 4: they've got these giint engravings of these glorious battles. And

999
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 4: they're not in color. You know, they're black and white.

1000
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 4: You don't see the blood, you don't see the drip,

1001
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 4: you don't see the men beheaded by a cannon ball.

1002
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 4: I mean it looks so glorious and thrilling, and so

1003
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 4: there's all this kind of manliness involved. Yet let's go

1004
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 4: off and we're gonna fight and we're gonna become heroes.

1005
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 4: And of course they realized later that it's awful. It's horrible,

1006
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 4: it's ugly. So no, they're they're you know Whyatt wanted

1007
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 4: to join and his brothers, you know, and of course

1008
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 4: the option for you know why could either join the

1009
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 4: army or he can stay home and plant that stupid

1010
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 4: cornfield that he hated. You know, he didn't want to

1011
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 4: be a farmer, but that's what his father had him doing.

1012
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 4: His father told him, hey, you know, you're this food

1013
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 4: goes to your brothers in the war, and white Events

1014
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 4: is like, you know, well, I'm gonna starve with them

1015
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 4: because I'm going to go fight the revs. And he

1016
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 4: runs away from home. His father tracks him down and

1017
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 4: he's you know why, it's all excited. He's already got grounded,

1018
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 4: he got well, yeah, essentially. But he sees his father

1019
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 4: in his hotel and he thinks his father doesn't see him,

1020
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 4: and he rushes back home. Well, his father had spotted him,

1021
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 4: and he almost got a whipping, but his mother saved him,

1022
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 4: and his father made him promise. It says, you will

1023
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 4: not join the military without the permission of your mother

1024
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 4: and you will attend to the cornfield. And so that

1025
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 4: was it. And then the family ends up leaving during

1026
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 4: the war and going to California. And I think the

1027
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 4: reason was Nicholas Irp. He already had three men that

1028
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 4: had gone to fight. He opposed the war. He was

1029
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: what they call a copperhead. He was a Democrat, but

1030
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 4: a copperhead. They were opposed to the war because they

1031
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 4: thought the war was really becoming about slavery and abolition.

1032
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: And what he wanted to be about, well, he thought it.

1033
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 4: Was about the constitution. Initially it was supposed to be

1034
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 4: out the Constitution and keeping the Union together. Why the

1035
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 4: term copper well, I don't know where that comes from.

1036
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 4: Actually copperhead.

1037
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: So you're like a democrat and you don't want to

1038
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: be involved in the war about slavery.

1039
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 4: So not an abolitionist, no, oh no, that's and that

1040
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 4: was what they were really opposed to, the abolitionists stance,

1041
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 4: because they felt they felt they became a war about abolitionism.

1042
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 1: Which they didn't care about.

1043
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 4: No, no, And and you know Nicholas Irp, I mean

1044
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 4: you know, he had the racist views of the period.

1045
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 4: He didn't think it was worth fighting to free these

1046
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 4: people that didn't deserve it. So I think one of

1047
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 4: the reasons to go to California. He opposed the war,

1048
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 4: but he's also taking his sons out of harm's way.

1049
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 4: He's getting white you know why it wants to join

1050
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 4: We're going to go to California. He had younger brothers,

1051
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 4: Morgan and Warren, and who knows at this time it's

1052
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 4: eighteen sixty four. They don't know how long this war's

1053
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 4: going to go. It might go for another two or

1054
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 4: three years. And I don't want my sons, you know,

1055
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 4: in this war that I disagree with, so they go

1056
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 4: to California. So that was that was you know why

1057
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 4: why it's closest encounter with the Civil War was his

1058
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 4: attempt to join up, but he got caught.

1059
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: Any of his brothers get killed there.

1060
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 4: No one brother. Jim was so badly wounded in his

1061
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 4: arm that it was his arm was unusable, so he

1062
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 4: kept his arm, but he just you know, couldn't use it.

1063
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 4: And the Virgil I don't think he was wounded in

1064
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 4: the war. And then he had a half brother, Newton,

1065
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 4: and he survived the war.

1066
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: Also, where did he go from California? Like, how did

1067
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: he get tangled up with hunting buffalo down in Texas

1068
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: and his kind of his whole gang did like the

1069
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: dudes he began to be associated with, did.

1070
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, he met bat Masterson on the buffalo planes. Of course,

1071
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 4: you know it's a little murky as to the chronology

1072
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: because he claimed. Now you know Whyett's thing was he

1073
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 4: had a lot in his past that he preferred not

1074
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 4: get out to the public. I mean, he wanted to

1075
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 4: tell a story, but.

1076
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: Such as what.

1077
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 4: Well, so he's he's a constable in Missouri for just

1078
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 4: about well less than a year, and he loses his

1079
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 4: wife there. He absconds with tax moneys he had collected

1080
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 4: that were supposed to go to the county and gets

1081
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 4: his family in trouble because his father and uncle had

1082
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 4: signed sties on this bond, thousand dollars bond. He ends

1083
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 4: up getting arrested for stealing a horse in Oklahoma.

1084
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: Is he a pimp for a while?

1085
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I'm getting to. So, so from that

1086
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 4: horse theft thing, he escapes from jail, he says at

1087
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 4: that point, and he never mentioned he never admits to

1088
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 4: stealing the horse or any of the other things, but

1089
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 4: he says, then I went to the Buffalo Range and

1090
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 4: I was able to make five thousand dollars in hides

1091
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 4: or whatever. Well, there's an interval in there where he

1092
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 4: went to Peoria, Illinois and he's living in the home

1093
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 4: of a prostitute. There's a prostitute that claims to be

1094
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 4: his wife, and he's actually running a brothel. According to

1095
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 4: the arrest records, he's he's arrested as a pimp and

1096
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 4: one of his his last brothel operation, which I think

1097
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 4: is kind of hilarious. It was a floating brothel on

1098
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:48,879
Speaker 4: the river.

1099
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: So, yeah, was it to get out of like the

1100
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: like like how you would have to gamble on the

1101
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 1: river to get out state regulation?

1102
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 4: I don't know, because they still arrested him, but in

1103
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 4: the book I say it was. It was the true

1104
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 4: definition of a pleasure boat. But uh, anyway, joke. Yeah,

1105
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 4: So so he got arrested a few In fact, one

1106
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: time he got.

1107
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: He had a boat, yes, like what kind of like

1108
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: a keel.

1109
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 4: I think it was like some kind of a flat

1110
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 4: boat or it wasn't an extravage. It wasn't like not no, no, yeah,

1111
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 4: it wasn't. It wasn't one of these luxury boats. No,

1112
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 4: it wasn't like that at all. I think it was

1113
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 4: a pretty basic boat. But he was arrested more than once.

1114
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 4: And one time when he was arrested, uh, it was

1115
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 4: going to charge him like forty four dollars and he

1116
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 4: didn't have the money, so he chose to be in jail,

1117
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 4: him and his brother Morgan. So they sat out there there,

1118
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 4: you know, time in jail, and then they went back

1119
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: to doing the same thing. That's when they got the

1120
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 4: boat or whatever.

1121
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: I want to narrow one on his boat. Okay, why

1122
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 1: are they running a uh like, why are they running

1123
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: a cathouse on a boat?

1124
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's the mobility moving target. Yeah, yeah,

1125
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 4: that's yeah. No, I think it's like you could the

1126
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 4: idea is and I'm kind of speculating here. I mean

1127
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 4: you could again, you could move from place to place

1128
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 4: or maybe move to a different town you know, down

1129
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 4: the river or whatever and conduct your business.

1130
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: So but but it's funny that we laughed so hard

1131
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: about this years ago. Is uh, you'res to call there's

1132
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: this whole dispute in this town where like this town

1133
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: is trying to ban ice fishing. Okay, remember this, Yeah,

1134
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: this town is trying to ban ice fishing. There's like

1135
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: this city councilman who is given like the speech at

1136
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: the at the town meeting, and he's talking about, well,

1137
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: if you allow ice fishing, then people are gonna have

1138
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: ice shanties. Okay, if you bring in ice shanties, that's prostitution.

1139
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: And that killed it, right, and the guy became like

1140
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: the laughing style, you know. But it was like, but

1141
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: when you're talking about the boat, I'm just trying to

1142
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, just somehow I thought like why, like

1143
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't get like the connection. Yeah, but yeah, you

1144
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: just can move around.

1145
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, Yeah, and who knows. I mean maybe it

1146
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: was a really inexpensive rather than have a you know,

1147
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 4: go to some building in town. But like you say, yeah,

1148
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 4: you're mobile, and uh, maybe you're here one night and

1149
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 4: the next night you tell you tell your guys they

1150
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 4: were gonna be on here five miles or whatever.

1151
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: Was his wife like, would you imagine was his wife

1152
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 1: a madam or was she an actual worker?

1153
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 4: Well, so he had four wives and or significant he

1154
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 4: only there's only one legal record marriage record for his

1155
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 4: first wife, but the wife he had in Peoria, she

1156
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,919
Speaker 4: apparently was not a madam but was actually a work girl.

1157
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1158
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 4: Now later yes, later apparently uh this uh this wife

1159
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 4: when he was in Wichita because she came with him,

1160
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 4: and apparently she was a madam or running a brothel.

1161
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 4: And you know, it's it's it's it's it's really sad

1162
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 4: because these are one side of affairs. I mean, uh,

1163
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 4: you know, let's say Doc Holidays, you know, big nos Kate.

1164
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 4: I mean a lot of times these these prostitutes, they

1165
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 4: had gamblers as their partners, and it's like, well, you know,

1166
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 4: you lose a lot of money at the table while

1167
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 4: you're having your your wife, you know, make you're taking

1168
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 4: her money basically, or you're just freeloading off of them

1169
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 4: and just adding a little getting a little protection form.

1170
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 4: You're not really doing much work of the protection. So

1171
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 4: it's it's a sad. It's uneven, I should say, as

1172
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 4: those relationships predatory exactly. Yeah. So but anyway, I the

1173
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 4: way I look at so so White had these unseemly

1174
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 4: things about his past, but he was in his early twenties.

1175
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 4: I mean, and uh, you know, I a little sympathetic

1176
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 4: because he he grew out of that, he became different,

1177
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 4: he aspired to something better, uh and when he ends

1178
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 4: up in Wichita as a policeman, even though his wife

1179
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 4: is still a prostitute. Uh, He's they rave about him

1180
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 4: as a policeman there, and when he's in Dodge City

1181
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 4: the same thing. I mean, he's like the best policeman

1182
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 4: they've ever had. And when he gets to Tombstone, you know,

1183
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 4: he wants to run for county sheriff. I mean he's

1184
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 4: trying to better himself. And one of the things about

1185
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 4: the American West is that you can leave your past behind.

1186
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 4: I mean there's nobody on the internet looking you up,

1187
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 4: you know like they do today. I mean, you know,

1188
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 4: finding your high school yearbook photo or you dressed up

1189
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 4: in some weird character. I mean, it's that you can

1190
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 4: escape your past.

1191
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 5: Why was he moving from place to place to be like?

1192
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 5: Was he following money? Was he getting recruited? Was he

1193
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 5: getting in trouble and having to leave?

1194
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 4: Like why did he bounce it? It's a combination of

1195
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 4: all those things. So he had a good job. He

1196
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 4: was well respected in Wichita, but he got in a

1197
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 4: fight there. There was a man that was running against

1198
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 4: his boss, who for sheriff, and this man had said

1199
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 4: some unsavory things about why Ittt's brothers, and so he

1200
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 4: hauled off and hit him. Well, you know, he got

1201
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 4: arrested and fined, and he was dismissed from the police force.

1202
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 4: Almost immediately there after, the mayor of Dodge City learns

1203
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 4: that Widrop's available, and so he sends him a letter

1204
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 4: offering in more pay, you know, and the the cattle

1205
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 4: herd trade had shifted west. They have you heard of

1206
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 4: the deadline? You've heard of the phrase called the deadline.

1207
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: So yeah, So there was a tick born disease called

1208
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 4: Spanish fever, and the Kansas legislature they had a line.

1209
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: Not a livestock disease, but a human disease.

1210
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 4: No livestock, and they did not want these Texas cattle

1211
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 4: infecting the herds and the more settled places of Kansas.

1212
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 5: They're worried about coming back.

1213
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 4: Now I don't know, I haven't heard about that.

1214
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: So anyway, there's Texas fever. Well they kept they use

1215
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: that they spray those nilghai with that automated spray gun

1216
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: to try to like get the tick off right.

1217
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, it was a tick born disease, so they

1218
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 4: kept moving the line west. And so they had moved

1219
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,479
Speaker 4: the line west of Wichita, and so Dodge City became

1220
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 4: the headquarters and it was just perfect timing. You know,

1221
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 4: he needed a job. But as far as Tombstone, for instance,

1222
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 4: he had resigned his post in Dodge City. He'd heard

1223
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 4: about the strikes in Tombstone and he was going to

1224
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 4: go there to make money. In fact, he he said

1225
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 4: that he bought a concord coach, a stage coach, and

1226
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 4: he thought they we might need a stage line, and

1227
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 4: so his idea was, I'm going to take this coach.

1228
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 4: When he got there, there are already two stage lines operating.

1229
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 4: But he went to Tombstone to make money and actually

1230
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 4: to put down roots. I mean he builds a house

1231
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 4: for his wife at the time, I mean he buys

1232
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 4: mining claims. He's first a deputy sheriff there in the county,

1233
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 4: and then uh, you know he's wanting to run for

1234
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 4: this that when they when they create coaches county, Uh,

1235
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 4: he wants to run for the county sheriff. He really

1236
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 4: is looking to advance, uh, to better himself, I mean,

1237
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 4: to really settle down. You know, he's like thirty three

1238
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 4: or no, he's like thirty or well, I can't remember

1239
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 4: thirty three. I think at that time, and uh, there's

1240
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 4: opportunity here. And he got there right at the berth.

1241
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 4: I mean Tombstone was just starting to boom, and so

1242
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 4: he did have you know, he did have a real

1243
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 4: opportunity to make a difference, to be someone. The problem

1244
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 4: was the cowboys and all the outlawry and the wrestling

1245
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 4: that was going on, and you know when a stage

1246
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 4: was robbed, well he was on the posse, you know,

1247
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 4: when somebody was killed or you know they needed somebody.

1248
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 4: You know, White Earth was the one that was, you know,

1249
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 4: helping out or you know, representing the law, or his

1250
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 4: brother needed help. He was helping his brother because his

1251
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 4: brother was a deputy us Marshall and became chief of

1252
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 4: police in Tombstone. But he was really looking to change

1253
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 4: and to make himself better. And even the Earth women,

1254
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 4: you know, several of them had been prostitutes as well.

1255
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 4: But one of the things about in the Old West,

1256
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 4: if someone said, you know, why could say this is

1257
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 4: my wife, you didn't question him. They just called her

1258
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 4: missus irp. I mean there was no this stuff didn't

1259
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 4: follow you. So they really had hopes for a new

1260
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 4: beginning in Tombstone.

1261
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 5: Were his brothers like was it always like a family

1262
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 5: business or did they not join him until Tombstone.

1263
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 4: It wasn't really a family business. But what it was

1264
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 4: was these brothers. I mean, they were a tight knit

1265
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 4: brood and they always tended to come back together. And

1266
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 4: you know, for instance, Jim RP was in Tombstone, but

1267
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 4: he wasn't involved with White. He was, you know, a

1268
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 4: barkeep there at one of the saloons. Virgil RP. He

1269
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 4: didn't invest in the gambling concession that Whitett had at

1270
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 4: the Oriental. You know, he was the deputy us Marshall

1271
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 4: and eventually chief of police. So they liked being together,

1272
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 4: but they weren't really in business together. Now I think

1273
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 4: that they might have shared some mining claims that they

1274
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 4: speculated in, but over and over again they they tend

1275
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 4: to stay together as a family. And you know, Morgan

1276
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 4: comes down from Montana when he learns that Wyatt and

1277
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 4: the other brothers are in Tombstone and joins him there

1278
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 4: and he gets it. He takes White's job as a

1279
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 4: sitting shotgun on a stage coach. After Whyatt becomes the

1280
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 4: deputy sheriff or whatever. So they just, you know, they

1281
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 4: they navigate together because they're family you know.

1282
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: The thing that in reading about this era and different

1283
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: figures that that I've written about, and the Randalls researched

1284
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 1: about what you're talking about, you get these guys that

1285
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: are with these incredible drifters. Like when we talk about

1286
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: the mountain man era nowadays, someone might think of like

1287
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: a mountain man, you know, like a hermit lives by

1288
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,439
Speaker 1: himself up in a cabin. Oh, he's a true mountain man.

1289
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: You know, this is up in his cabin, never talks

1290
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: to anybody.

1291
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 4: I think that's a History Channel show, isn't it.

1292
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, but like the mountain men, like the actual

1293
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: mountain men would have been the most widely like the

1294
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: most some of the most widely traveled people in the country,

1295
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean, criss crossing the country, right, And you think

1296
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: this is a time when you could be a farmer

1297
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: and spend your whole life in a twenty mount radius

1298
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: right in certain areas, like it's not easy to get around.

1299
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: These guys get around unbelievably well, Like if you look

1300
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: at all the like how much do Irp's move would it?

1301
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 1: Would that have seemed at that time? Would that have

1302
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: seemed weird that they lived in you know, I mean,

1303
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: you've lived in eight states, you've been to the West

1304
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 1: coast and back.

1305
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so, because in all these boom towns,

1306
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 4: people are coming from someplace else. Yeah, I mean they're

1307
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 4: all I mean, especially if it's now. A mining boomtown

1308
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 4: is different than a cattle boom town. So you know,

1309
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 4: when when gold or silver, Tombstone is a silver place,

1310
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 4: you know, people are coming all over to think they're

1311
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 4: going to make their riches. And you know, what's what's

1312
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 4: odd is that there was one newspaper account where a

1313
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 4: guy's write in a letter from Tombstone and he says

1314
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 4: most of the and like at one point there was

1315
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 4: like twenty men arriving a day early on, and he says,

1316
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 4: most of the people that arrive here are arriving broke.

1317
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 4: And he said, that's not really a good idea to

1318
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 4: come here, because there's not that many jobs. As far

1319
01:04:58,160 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 4: as you know, you could if if you're a miner,

1320
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 4: you could get like working mine, or you get like

1321
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 4: four dollars a day or something like that. But I mean,

1322
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 4: it wasn't that there were just all kinds of jobs

1323
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 4: ready to take these people. So you've got a lot

1324
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 4: of people that are wandering around, they don't have a job,

1325
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 4: they don't have the money. And then plus everything is

1326
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 4: super expensive there. It's like double what you can find elsewhere.

1327
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 4: I mean, like a sack of flour and Tombstone with

1328
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 4: six dollars, you could get it in Kansas for less

1329
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 4: than three dollars, you know, or a bushel or whatever.

1330
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's so the people are coming from

1331
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 4: all over, you know, for this, and all the talk

1332
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 4: is about mining. One of the funny stories I came

1333
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 4: across was, you know, there are always people always talk

1334
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 4: about these different claims. And anyway, in eighteen eighty was

1335
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 4: an election year and it was Garfield and I can't

1336
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: remember who he's running against, but somebody mentioned Garfield and

1337
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 4: they said, oh, where's that claim and how much does

1338
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 4: it pay? You know, they thought it was a mining

1339
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 4: claim or whatever. And then another thing that it's just

1340
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 4: really horrible. Actually, the diary is George Parson. We have

1341
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 4: his diary which is so great. But he mentions that

1342
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 4: there was a lightning strike at the lumberyard in Tombstone

1343
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 4: and it killed a man. And he says, you know,

1344
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 4: some of the people are talking about maybe it's struck

1345
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 4: there because there was a large load of metal in

1346
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 4: that spot and kid, Yeah, they were talking about the

1347
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 4: guy that was killing them all. It's like, I wonder, yeah,

1348
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 4: if there's some silver there. It's like, oh, yeah, who

1349
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 4: was that guy that was good? They didn't even care

1350
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 4: about him.

1351
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, walk us through, walkers through Doc Holliday,

1352
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: Like people kind of carry it in their head that

1353
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: these guys are that these guys are our buddies became

1354
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: buddies but totally different upbringings.

1355
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah. Uh, Doc had a little more advanced

1356
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 4: education than than why it did. And you can tell that,

1357
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 4: you know, if you look at the few letters that

1358
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 4: we have a Wyatt. He wasn't the best speller or calligrapher,

1359
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 4: but I mean he had an education. We have no

1360
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 4: letters actually from Doc, and we know that he was

1361
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 4: a big letter writer. He had a cousin that he

1362
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,919
Speaker 4: was some people think he had an affair with We're

1363
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 4: not really sure, but he wrote her constantly, and I

1364
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 4: guess she burned all her letters after Yeah, she definitely

1365
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 4: had Yeah.

1366
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 7: There you go.

1367
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, why did she have burned letters?

1368
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 4: She didn't want anybody to see. I mean, you know,

1369
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 4: she'd burned all of them, So which is I mean,

1370
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 4: we would have had so much information. But according to

1371
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 4: there's a family story that they saw these letters and

1372
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,920
Speaker 4: they said Doc was talking about his experiences in the

1373
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: West and talking about what he was doing and what

1374
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 4: he was seeing, and we would have had so much

1375
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 4: more information. But to get back to your question.

1376
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 1: You know, was a doc.

1377
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 4: He was a doc. He was a dentist. He actually

1378
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 4: went to a dental The most prestigious dental school in

1379
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 4: the country at that time was in Philadelphia, the Philadelphia

1380
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 4: Dental School, and he got a degree. He went there

1381
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 4: in eighteen seventy. He got his dental degree. One of

1382
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 4: the few photographs we have of him was taken in Philadelphia,

1383
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 4: and we think it was like a graduation photo or whatever,

1384
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 4: and it has his to get you're on the back

1385
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 4: and it says, you know, J. H. Holliday, d d

1386
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 4: D or whatever. But anyway, so he also comes down

1387
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 4: with tuberculosis. His mother had tuberculosis, and their speculation that, well,

1388
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:16,600
Speaker 4: you know, he probably got it from her. In the

1389
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 4: nineteenth century, people didn't know was contagious. So you know

1390
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 4: today if somebody, oh, I got TV and you're coughing

1391
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 4: over the places.

1392
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: That's what I got right now.

1393
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 4: I don't know if you're taking some fit of silling. Yeah,

1394
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 4: but anyway, yeah you would. I mean people didn't know

1395
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 4: that because they call it consumption y, yes, exactly. Yeah.

1396
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 4: Or they called him a lunger. What is it in

1397
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 4: the movie Tombstone and yeah, Johnny Ringo calls him a

1398
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 4: lunger or whatever. So anyway, there's a couple of theories

1399
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 4: as to why he goes out west, and one of

1400
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 4: them is is that they encourage him to go west

1401
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 4: because of his health, you know, to go out to

1402
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 4: a different climate. It's odd because he goes to Texas,

1403
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 4: which is Dallas, which is not that much different from

1404
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 4: where he is as far as humidity and all that stuff.

1405
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: But that comes up though, Yes, that comes up. Like

1406
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 1: the historian Francis Parkman, who wrote sort of like at

1407
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: the time, a definitive History of the French and Indian War.

1408
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: He gets advised by his doctor, you need to go

1409
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: out west for your health. So he goes out and

1410
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 1: starts hanging out in the Dakotas, probably goes to Crazy

1411
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: probably is in the same camp in the Guala Su camp.

1412
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: Probably in the same camp with Crazy Horse from crazy horses,

1413
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 1: like thirteen years old and he's out there on his

1414
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: like doctor's recommendation.

1415
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was called the Prairie cure. Yeah they believed. Yeah, now, yeah,

1416
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 4: it was called the Prairie cure.

1417
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: And they see reference to it so much.

1418
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 6: You've got to get away from the miasmas.

1419
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the bad air, the.

1420
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,919
Speaker 4: Well And there's some amazing survival stories of a Josiah

1421
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 4: Gregg who wrote a book called Commerce of the Prairies.

1422
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 4: He was advised to go out west. This is in

1423
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 4: the eighteen thirties and along the Santa Fe Trail. He

1424
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:58,799
Speaker 4: started his journey as an invalid, he could not walk.

1425
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:01,720
Speaker 4: With in a few weeks, he's up and walking, he's

1426
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:05,520
Speaker 4: eating buffalo meat, and he's like, fully he fully recovered.

1427
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 4: What was his affliction, We don't know. I mean, we

1428
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 4: don't know, but he was. He was so bad off

1429
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 4: that he couldn't even walk.

1430
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if he just had celiacs. Well

1431
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. No, Well, think it through.

1432
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: He's got he's and also now he's out there eating

1433
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 1: nothing but meat. No, you didn't believe in It's totally

1434
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: I believe in that. I don't believe in gluten in tolerance.

1435
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 4: Okay, but what what.

1436
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 1: I believe in it as a partisan disease. It's a

1437
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: political disease.

1438
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 4: What what history?

1439
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: Totally joking?

1440
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 4: What some history? What's some historians think to it was refuted.

1441
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:49,600
Speaker 1: I used to feel just I said something in sandiary,

1442
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: I got to clean it up. I used to feel

1443
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: that it was a just with all due respect to

1444
01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 1: everyone else. No, I'm a believing. I came up with

1445
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 1: this theory based on just nothing, that gluten intolerance was

1446
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: a left wing affliction.

1447
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 4: Okay.

1448
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,600
Speaker 1: I was like, why how could there be? So I

1449
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: questioned this legitimacy, like how could there be a health

1450
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:19,560
Speaker 1: problem that seems that mostly strike people of a politically

1451
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: left persuasion. But then my buddy Spencer, our colleague, came

1452
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: to me with a quiz and it's like it's like

1453
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: breaks down different belief systems into like right leaning, left

1454
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: leaning ghost He's like ghosts and I'm like, definitely left wing.

1455
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 1: He's like no, no, if your right wing, you're more

1456
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 1: inclined to believe. So anyways, once he walked me through,

1457
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 1: they didn't do the gluten intolerance, but like, the one

1458
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 1: thing you can say is right wing people like a

1459
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 1: rare steak more than left wing people, but you can't

1460
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: say that they get more gluten intolerance. I don't even

1461
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,600
Speaker 1: know where you sit politically. Well, you don't need to

1462
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:01,679
Speaker 1: tell me, but I just wanted to clear that up, okay,

1463
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,480
Speaker 1: because I don't want to rehash. I don't want to opens.

1464
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 4: I'm glad you did a statistical study that.

1465
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,759
Speaker 1: Well, that's the problems I did. Oh but my friend

1466
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: did what caused you to rethink? And you challenge a

1467
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: lot of my assumptions, and then my theory fell apart,

1468
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 1: as many theories do. That's all the Prairie cure. Yes,

1469
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: so we don't know what Josiah greg No, we don't

1470
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 1: what is affliction. But but I believe it was CELIAX.

1471
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, Yeah, well they could very well be.

1472
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 4: I mean I have I can't say either way, but

1473
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 4: a lot of historians think that that people that were

1474
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 4: ill that went west may not really have had tuberculosis

1475
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 4: to begin with. It might have been you know, something else.

1476
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 4: And also turriculosis can go into remission as well. So

1477
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 4: so but but but you're right though, I mean, doctors

1478
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 4: were constantly referring, you know, go west or whatever, and.

1479
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: So in in in like medical hindsight, is it that

1480
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 1: that wasn't like like that wasn't a way to cure that,

1481
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: that wasn't actually helpful if you had TV.

1482
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 4: I well, it might have been helpful just because you're

1483
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 4: getting away from this, I mean, the West is arid,

1484
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 4: so you have dry air. You're getting away from this

1485
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,680
Speaker 4: humid You're getting away from all the cold smoke, and

1486
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 4: that certainly isn't going to make your TV any better.

1487
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 4: So I think it was helpful. And and you had

1488
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 4: all kinds of sanitariums popping up in the late nineteenth

1489
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 4: century early twentieth century. Colorado Springs was a huge place

1490
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 4: for sanitariums, and they had little huts and you're supposed

1491
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 4: to get out in the sun, which is helpful, you know,

1492
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 4: getting sun lights on where Oh it's it's a huge

1493
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 4: complex for treating patients with tuberculosis, with like dozens and

1494
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 4: dozens of hundreds of individual huts. Yeah, and you would

1495
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 4: go I would.

1496
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 1: Have thought it meant like an insane asylum, a sanitarium.

1497
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, sanitarium. Yeah, do you know this random? Mm hm.

1498
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,800
Speaker 1: They covered that when the doctorate I mean glen Wood Spring.

1499
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,760
Speaker 6: I believe Hot Springs used to be a sanitarium.

1500
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 5: Always springs, They're always hot springs.

1501
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 8: Yea.

1502
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: I know this because I would have raised my hand

1503
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 1: like in trivia. I would have been like.

1504
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:17,680
Speaker 5: But what that is was was Doc Holliday already like

1505
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 5: before he left the East to go west? Was he

1506
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 5: already like a ne'er do well gambler and drinker and

1507
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 5: all that?

1508
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 4: Well, there's some some authors have written that he had

1509
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 4: kind of learned to play cards while he was in

1510
01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 4: Georgia before going west. But here's the other story that's

1511
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 4: more unseemly about Doc Holliday that that counters the tuberculosis story.

1512
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 4: There was this fishing hole along.

1513
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: The river where this is a euphemism.

1514
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 4: No, no, it's a real no, I'm sorry. It was

1515
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 4: a swimming hole. Sorry, a swimming hole. And uh anyway,

1516
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 4: it was enjoyed by both black swimmers and white swimmers.

1517
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 4: I've heard, yes and so so. The white swimmers, including

1518
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 4: Doc Holiday, did not want the black swimmers in their

1519
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 4: swimming hole, and they threatened them and says, you're going

1520
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 4: to have to go someplace else. Well, the black young

1521
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 4: men said, we're not going someplace else. You can go

1522
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 4: someplace else. Well, a few days later, Doc Holliday shows

1523
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 4: up with a double barrel shotgun and he yells at

1524
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 4: them all to get out, and then as they're clamoring

1525
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 4: out of the fishing of the swimming hole, he unloads

1526
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 4: both barrels and apparently kills two of these young men.

1527
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah Holiday, Yes, and the story yeah, that's right. Yeah,

1528
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 4: did his quate? So?

1529
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 7: Uh?

1530
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 4: The story is is that the family, I mean, apparently

1531
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 4: it wasn't a horrible, you know thing to kill black

1532
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 4: men in Georgia right after the Civil War, but they suggested, oh,

1533
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:46,880
Speaker 4: maybe you need to leave for a while and until

1534
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 4: things settle down or whatever. The family does have stories

1535
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 4: of this incident, but they say Doc Holliday fired over

1536
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 4: the heads of the swimmers. I can tell you that

1537
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 4: there are no legal documents known or newspaper reports that

1538
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 4: mentioned this episode.

1539
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 1: Or isn't Does it seem like a thing that would

1540
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 1: have been reported on.

1541
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 4: It seems like if two men were killed, whether black

1542
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 4: or white, I think it would have been reported. But

1543
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,320
Speaker 4: it's a very strong story in the lore. And when

1544
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 4: Doc Holliday died in Glenwood Springs, his obituary in a

1545
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 4: Montana paper mentions that episode says he had killed a

1546
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:27,560
Speaker 4: couple of black men or one black man in Georgia.

1547
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 4: So that story, you know how I said you could

1548
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 4: escape your past. That story stuck around. People knew that story,

1549
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,680
Speaker 4: got it. I would just love to I mean, it

1550
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:38,799
Speaker 4: would make me feel better if I found an actual

1551
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 4: document from the time or a newspaper report saying that

1552
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,520
Speaker 4: these men had been killed or whatever. But it's also believable.

1553
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't say it didn't happen. It's believable.

1554
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 1: So when he left, when he leaves Georgia, and whether

1555
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 1: it's it's because he's got consumption, whether it because he's

1556
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:01,440
Speaker 1: worried about getting arrested. Yeah, he leaves dentistry.

1557
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,640
Speaker 4: No, no, he sets up a uh he has a

1558
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 4: partner in Dallas, Texas and they have a dental He

1559
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 4: has a partner. His name is Cigar, Yes, Segar. And

1560
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 4: this is this is the cool thing. I mean, there's

1561
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 4: a there's a local fair, the Texas Industrial Association. They

1562
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 4: get a prize for like the best false teeth. Oh

1563
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,080
Speaker 4: you know, so Doc Holliday is an award winning dentist.

1564
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 4: He not only has a dental degree, but now he's

1565
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,719
Speaker 4: an award winning dentist, and he's in his early twenties,

1566
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 4: you know, but Dallas is also where he takes a

1567
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 4: different path. He diverges. He later in talking to a

1568
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 4: newspaper reporter, he said, yeah, I was part of the

1569
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 4: Methodist Church. He was even part of this uh you

1570
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 4: know group of uh you wouldn't call it aaa, but

1571
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 4: it was, you know, a temperance organization. And uh. But

1572
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:58,680
Speaker 4: then he says, uh that I swayed you know, uh

1573
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 4: something from rectitude or whatever. And so yeah, he started gambling.

1574
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 4: Bat Masterson says, you know, there was gambling was rampant

1575
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 4: in Dallas, and he says that was the one way

1576
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 4: to sure make money in Dalla because of all the

1577
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,640
Speaker 4: places where you could gamble. We know that Doc was

1578
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 4: arrested there for gambling in Dallas, and apparently you know

1579
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 4: Doc's life as a gambler.

1580
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 1: Well.

1581
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 4: In fact, bat Master says the only way to get

1582
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 4: an appointment was to sit across from at a poker table.

1583
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:26,600
Speaker 4: You know. So I guess his partner got fed up

1584
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 4: and they separated. And only a few more times do

1585
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 4: we know that Doc Holiday does practice dentistry, or at

1586
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 4: least appear to, you know, he apparently set out in Denton, Texas.

1587
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 4: He set out a sign, you know, dentistry, and in

1588
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 4: Dodge City when he arrives there, he puts an ad

1589
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 4: in the paper, and so we have those newspapers. Yeah

1590
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 4: it says, you know, John h Holiday dentist. But after

1591
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 4: that we have no record that he actually practiced as

1592
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:58,640
Speaker 4: a dentist. For instance, he was in Pressate, Arizona for

1593
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 4: a while. He was gambling. He was definitely not practicing dentistry.

1594
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 4: In Tombstone, he was a full time gambler. But the

1595
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 4: funny thing is in the eighteen eighty census for Arizona,

1596
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 4: his occupations linisted his dentist, but he wasn't doing I mean,

1597
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like this is the other

1598
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 4: weird thing the Irt brothers. In the same census, they're

1599
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 4: listed as farmers. They weren't farming. White hated farming. But

1600
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 4: you know, I guess you tell the census taker what's

1601
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 4: your occupation? Oh I'm farmer. Yeah I don't. But anyway,

1602
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 4: I just thought that that census taker had to chuckle

1603
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 4: when Doc said, yeah, put me down his dentists because

1604
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 4: he was not doing dentistry. In Prescott Arizona.

1605
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 1: God if he if he if a guy like Doc

1606
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,720
Speaker 1: Halladay filled out like his tax forms at the end

1607
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: of a year a gambling like he's he's showing like

1608
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 1: a gain. He yeah, I mean, like when when you

1609
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,959
Speaker 1: read all these guys like he was a gambler, professional gambler,

1610
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: what's that look like? Economically? There's no house, right, Oh no,

1611
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:03,919
Speaker 1: you're just you're playing at a table, just like anybody.

1612
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1613
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:09,840
Speaker 1: Well, is it there's guys that are legitimately supporting themselves,

1614
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: or is it that you're doing other nefarious stuff but

1615
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,879
Speaker 1: you're mostly spending your time playing cards, but your income

1616
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,680
Speaker 1: is from well, prostitution or whatever the hell you got.

1617
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,799
Speaker 4: Well, sometimes you're actually just being paid as a dealer

1618
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,440
Speaker 4: in a in a gambling establishment, and you're not necessarily

1619
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 4: taking part of the women's or winnings or you know,

1620
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:34,839
Speaker 4: you get a concession. You can run this Pharaoh table

1621
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 4: and you'll give so much to the guy that owns

1622
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 4: the place, and you keep so much.

1623
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,519
Speaker 1: God, But the thing is, it's not like that you

1624
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:44,200
Speaker 1: need to win more than you lose. There's other ways

1625
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 1: a turn a problem. There's other ways a turn a

1626
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 1: living as a gambling.

1627
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:51,640
Speaker 4: Yes, but I mean, Doc his income had to be

1628
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 4: so erratic. You know, he definitely had highs and lows,

1629
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 4: and the last few years were definitely lows. I mean,

1630
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 4: he's bouncing around from one place to the other and

1631
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:06,520
Speaker 4: has no money. This incident, well, here's an example in Leadville.

1632
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 4: He borrowed like five dollars from this guy and he

1633
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:13,439
Speaker 4: wasn't paying it back and a guy kept harassing him.

1634
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 4: You know, I want, it's just five dollars, you know,

1635
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 4: it's not the end of the world or whatever. But

1636
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 4: Doc doesn't have the money, and you know, he ends

1637
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 4: up pawning a bunch of stuff. When he dies in

1638
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 4: Glenwood Springs, he has hardly anything. He had a few

1639
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:27,760
Speaker 4: possessions that were sent back to his family. There were

1640
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 4: no guns that were sent back, so he probably sold

1641
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:34,599
Speaker 4: those long before. There was a stickpin, a gold stick

1642
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 4: pin that had a diamond in it. The diamond was gone,

1643
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,640
Speaker 4: so he probably locked the hat and sold it. I mean,

1644
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 4: why the hell did he? I mean, it was sad.

1645
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 1: I was like, why did he get like, why did

1646
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:46,400
Speaker 1: he get out of why not this be a dentist?

1647
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 4: Well, I guess he didn't like it. I mean, you know,

1648
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,760
Speaker 4: I mean gambling. He was a gambling addict. He was

1649
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 4: addicted to it. I mean he had to gamble drunk too.

1650
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 4: He was often drunk, yes, And you know, if you

1651
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 4: want to be sympathetic to Doc, you can say he

1652
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:05,800
Speaker 4: was self medicating. I mean, he had tuberculosis, so there's laudanum.

1653
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 4: Any kind of tonic that you took had all kinds

1654
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 4: of alcohol in it. So but the problem with the

1655
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 4: drinking was that, you know, he was what they would

1656
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:16,680
Speaker 4: call him mean drunk. You know, he was not a

1657
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 4: good person, and and he was quick to get angry

1658
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 4: and get into fights. And his wife said, you know,

1659
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 4: Doc was his own worst enemy, and that was one

1660
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 4: of the things that kind of this bond that they had,

1661
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 4: you know whyet kind of and the brothers kind of

1662
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:32,519
Speaker 4: took care of Doc when he got out of control.

1663
01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 4: There's an account when they were in Gunnison, Colorado, and

1664
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 4: the guy remembered all of them and he said, oh yeah,

1665
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 4: when when Doc started to get out of control, they

1666
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 4: kind of took him aside and took him away. I

1667
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 4: mean they kind of looked after him. And once they

1668
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 4: separated and he didn't have that that you know, that

1669
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 4: family really to you know his other brothers. They were

1670
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:52,920
Speaker 4: they were kind of like siblings in a way. Doc

1671
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:56,759
Speaker 4: was three years younger than Wyatt. But but uh, anyway,

1672
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:58,600
Speaker 4: it was really for Doc at the end. It was

1673
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 4: very sad. But but people that wrote about him said

1674
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 4: he was always a meticulous dresser and he didn't dress

1675
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 4: over the top or what.

1676
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: But he's just.

1677
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 4: Particulous even in Tombstone. Big Nose Kate says, when he

1678
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,639
Speaker 4: went out that day that ended up in the OK Corral,

1679
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:13,639
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, yeah, he'll be able to see

1680
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 4: me once I'm dressed or whatever. And so he got

1681
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,560
Speaker 4: all dress. He had a cane, he had an overcoat

1682
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:19,679
Speaker 4: and it was a very sharp you know, it looked

1683
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 4: took real pride in his appearance.

1684
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: If you were hanging out with Big Nose Kate, would

1685
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 1: you say, excuse me, Big Nose Kate.

1686
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 4: I don't think she liked that at all. Yeah. Well,

1687
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:34,720
Speaker 4: and uh that's a name. Here's the this is what's

1688
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 4: so interesting That name comes from one person whiter said.

1689
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:41,559
Speaker 1: She was always a bully too.

1690
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, Big Nose Kate and big he coined the term.

1691
01:23:45,280 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 4: Well he's the only reference that we have. We don't

1692
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:53,040
Speaker 4: see big Nose Kate in contemporary newspapers. But his account

1693
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:56,280
Speaker 4: that he left he calls her big Nose Kate, and

1694
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 4: she left her own account. She never refers, you know,

1695
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 4: to that worse. Now, here's here's an interesting theory behind

1696
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 4: that name though. A buddy of mine, Ron.

1697
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: Hanson, she's Hungarian, right, yes she is.

1698
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, my buddy mine, Ron Hanson, who wrote the Assassination

1699
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 4: of Jesse j Dude.

1700
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:11,879
Speaker 1: That is an unbelievable Look.

1701
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 4: It's a great parties with him.

1702
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1703
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a friend of mine and he wrote a

1704
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 4: blurb but it's on the back of that book. But anyway,

1705
01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 4: Ron uh had a great theory and I included it

1706
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 4: in my book. He says, you know, I always wondered

1707
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:23,760
Speaker 4: about that name, and I think I know where it

1708
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 4: came from. He thinks that it's a corruption of the

1709
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 4: term for brabl the Italian term bonio, because Bonyo was

1710
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,439
Speaker 4: a brothel. He thinks they called her Bonyo Kate and

1711
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 4: it it got corrupted into big Nose just to kind

1712
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 4: of irk her. That's his theory, you know.

1713
01:24:38,479 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 1: So I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know,

1714
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to be rude to her, but you've

1715
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 1: seen pictures of her.

1716
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but that's like that's later life. That's a

1717
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 4: later life.

1718
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:50,719
Speaker 1: You know, it's terrible. When I was in high school,

1719
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 1: we had a friend. Her name was Michelle. She had

1720
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:59,760
Speaker 1: a hook nose. Everybody called her hook. She called herself hook,

1721
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:03,759
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend called her hook. Oh was the car nowadays?

1722
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 4: I'm sure it's not that she.

1723
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: Wouldn't say, oh wow, she's tell her hook called.

1724
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 4: Well, you know, she was a perpetual I say in

1725
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 4: the book, a perpetual IRB hater. And that tells me

1726
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,720
Speaker 4: how oh yeah, she hated it, But it tells me

1727
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 4: how close that bond was between White and Doc because

1728
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 4: she was so jealous of that relationship and she just

1729
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,439
Speaker 4: hated She seethed against why she thought White was the

1730
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:32,400
Speaker 4: one that ended caused all their problems. Beteaen her and Doc.

1731
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 4: You know, White just said, well they were always a

1732
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,760
Speaker 4: quarrelsome couple. That was all he had to say about it.

1733
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 1: But she a big booze er.

1734
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 3: Two.

1735
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:41,080
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so. I mean, I haven't seen

1736
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 4: any references to her being a drinker. But and she

1737
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 4: in her own account, she claimed that, oh, you know,

1738
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 4: Doc had a whiskey bottle with him, but he never

1739
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 4: really drank. Well, I mean, everybody else says he drank,

1740
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 4: you know, all the time, and he was often drunk.

1741
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 4: She was very kind in her recollections of Doc, but no,

1742
01:25:57,000 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 4: she hated the IRBs. She thought that was the end

1743
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 4: of their relationship. She thoughts at how everything went wrong

1744
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,680
Speaker 4: and they turned Doc wrong, and and she actually, I

1745
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:07,679
Speaker 4: mean she was so mad at Doc and they would

1746
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 4: often have these big, horrible fights. And she went to

1747
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 4: the sheriff Johnny Been, and implicated Doc in the Benson

1748
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,599
Speaker 4: stage robbery. She said, oh, yeah, boyfriend, Yeah, her boyfriend.

1749
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 4: And then she later said this was my way of

1750
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 4: getting him away from the herbs. Well, she could have

1751
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 4: he could have been hung, you know, because there was

1752
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 4: a guy, couple of guys, you know, was a guy killed, No,

1753
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:29,519
Speaker 4: two people killed in that robbery. So she was that

1754
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 4: angry with him that she implicated him. And then of course,

1755
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,640
Speaker 4: the the prosecuting attorney once he heard the story and

1756
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:39,120
Speaker 4: there was no evidence, he said, he just asked the

1757
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 4: judge dismissed the case. He said, there's no evidence whatsoever

1758
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 4: that what she's saying is true. There's nothing to back

1759
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:46,439
Speaker 4: that up. But no she did. She turned her lover

1760
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:48,840
Speaker 4: in and tried to get him arrested. Well, he did

1761
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 4: get arrested, but it didn't go to trial.

1762
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: All right. Set up? How set up? How it comes

1763
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 1: that like rather than like the way you talk about

1764
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:01,920
Speaker 1: these guys, rather being like there's a like super slick,

1765
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, virtuous right, white hatted Western heroes. It's there

1766
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 1: kind of just like drifters make and do well in

1767
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: a drinking.

1768
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way, I think I think Wyatt is

1769
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:24,360
Speaker 4: a little more than that. You know, the fact that

1770
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 4: Wyatt builds a house in Tombstone tells me something that

1771
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:31,880
Speaker 4: he's aspiring to more. Doc Holliday, throughout his life, never

1772
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 4: bought a house. He was always rooming somewhere. In fact,

1773
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 4: in Tombstone he was at a boarding house, the Fly

1774
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 4: boarding House, which is right next to where Flies f

1775
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 4: l y. Their last name was fly cs. Fly was

1776
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 4: a famous photographer and he had a photo studio behind

1777
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 4: the boarding house. And anyway, so Doc had had had

1778
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 4: a room there, and that's where Kate stayed when she

1779
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 4: would come to visit him. You know, they'd have these

1780
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 4: fights and they would separate, and then Kate said that

1781
01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 4: she would get a letter from Doc could say, hey,

1782
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 4: would you come be it like to see you again?

1783
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 4: She came back at like three different times she came

1784
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:05,960
Speaker 4: back to see him. There was this off and on

1785
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 4: again relationship, but she couldn't stand the herbs. So I

1786
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 4: think that she couldn't stand to be in Tombstone for

1787
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:12,559
Speaker 4: very long.

1788
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:15,880
Speaker 5: How did Doc Holliday and Wider? Like, how did it

1789
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:19,800
Speaker 5: all start? Was Doc Hall just gambling out his establishment

1790
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 5: at Wider's establishment and they got to know each other

1791
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 5: that way or like?

1792
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:25,360
Speaker 4: So that's a great question. I'm glad you asked it.

1793
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 4: And that's that's one of the reasons for the book

1794
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 4: was that, you know, when we see the movies, they

1795
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:33,719
Speaker 4: tell us that they're friends, but nobody knows how they became.

1796
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,920
Speaker 4: They don't even cover that. It's like it's just accepted.

1797
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:40,479
Speaker 4: So what happened was is that Doc and White had

1798
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 4: first met about eighteen seventy seven in Fort Griffin, Texas.

1799
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 4: And why it was down there he was being employed

1800
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,680
Speaker 4: by the Action Sepeak and Santa Fe Railroad to track

1801
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 4: down a couple of these men had been robbing the

1802
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 4: railroad camps and he was employed to track them down.

1803
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 4: And when he got to Fort Griffin, the owner of

1804
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 4: this saloon gambling establishment. Whitet asked him. He says, hey,

1805
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 4: you know, I'm looking for these guys. And he says, well,

1806
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:10,640
Speaker 4: if anybody would know, it'd be Doc Holliday, do you

1807
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 4: know him? And White didn't know him, and so they

1808
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 4: introduced each other and Wyatt talked about this a lot.

1809
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 4: He says, show at the time, I wasn't looking for

1810
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:20,880
Speaker 4: a friend. I was looking for information about, you know,

1811
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 4: where these guys might be. And Doc said, well, you know,

1812
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:25,960
Speaker 4: let me ask around and I'll see what I can do.

1813
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:28,200
Speaker 4: And I guess Doc going a few leads that didn't

1814
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 4: pan out. But but Doc had also pumped Wyatt about

1815
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 4: Dodge City, you know, because Doc was kind of looking for,

1816
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:35,599
Speaker 4: you know, someplace else where it might be a good

1817
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 4: place to land. And he was with Big Nose Kde

1818
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 4: at that time. And so Doc ends up in Dodge City.

1819
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 4: And you remember I said he placed that ad for

1820
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 4: a dentist's office. But one night, and this was happening

1821
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 4: almost constantly, you know, cowboys are being rowdy, wanting to

1822
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 4: shoot up the town. There was a big gang of

1823
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,760
Speaker 4: cowboys starting to shoot off their guns and then they

1824
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,080
Speaker 4: see Wyatt arp on the street near the long A

1825
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,320
Speaker 4: Saloon by himself, and they quickly surround him, and they

1826
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 4: got their guns and they're they're said, we're gonna get

1827
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 4: you now, you know what. They just didn't like him,

1828
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 4: you know, he was the law and they were drunk,

1829
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 4: you know, and so we're gonna, we're gonna get you.

1830
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 4: Wyatt dearly, I mean, he thought he was going to

1831
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 4: be killed. He thought that was going to be it. Well,

1832
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:20,040
Speaker 4: inside the Long Branch they had glass windows and Doc

1833
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 4: Holiday's backs. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I doubt it.

1834
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,479
Speaker 4: But anyway, he sees through the window what's going on,

1835
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 4: and the guy at the dealer, he says, do you

1836
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:33,599
Speaker 4: have a gun? And the guy says yeah. So Doc

1837
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:36,040
Speaker 4: gets it. Doc has his own gun. He comes out

1838
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:37,559
Speaker 4: the door with both guns.

1839
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 1: His gun and a barbed gun, kid's.

1840
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:40,719
Speaker 4: Gun and a borrowed gun. He said, hold up your hands,

1841
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 4: and of course the cowboys are all startled, and they do,

1842
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 4: and then Wyatt goes for his guns and they march

1843
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:48,599
Speaker 4: him off to jail and lock them up. So Wyatt

1844
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 4: set this more than once, and he said, from that

1845
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 4: day forward, I was Doc Holliday's friend, you know, with

1846
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 4: the friends. I mean, he's he considered his life saved

1847
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:01,400
Speaker 4: and he thought he was dead it. I mean, he

1848
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 4: really thought his life was in danger. And he says

1849
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:05,960
Speaker 4: we were friends. And so no matter of the crazy stuff,

1850
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:10,160
Speaker 4: Doc did, you know, White stuck with him and and

1851
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 4: the cowboys and Tombstone. They even tried to use Doc

1852
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:15,760
Speaker 4: against him by by putting these you know, claiming he

1853
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:18,519
Speaker 4: was a stage robber and he was a bad character.

1854
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:21,640
Speaker 4: Because everybody in town knew they were friends. So by association,

1855
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 4: if they make Doc look bad, well how we're not

1856
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:25,759
Speaker 4: gonna elect White Herb. He's a friend of this crazy,

1857
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,880
Speaker 4: you know thief, you know, Doc Holiday. But that really

1858
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,599
Speaker 4: says something to me about White Herb. You know that

1859
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 4: that he you know, had that bond. It's like, you

1860
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 4: save my life. We're friends, you know, doesn't care what

1861
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:41,200
Speaker 4: you do, what happens, We're friends. And that's the way

1862
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 4: it was until you know, they separate eventually after the

1863
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 4: Vendetta ride. Uh and Doc they they do see each

1864
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 4: other one last time in Denver and I actually found

1865
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 4: the notice. Often when people checked into a hotel, the

1866
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:58,800
Speaker 4: paper would say who's staying. You know, you could go

1867
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 4: through a list and why her Trinidad is staying at

1868
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 4: the hotel here. That was news and Doc Holliday read

1869
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 4: that and he went down to meet him at the hotel.

1870
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:10,680
Speaker 4: And Josephine R. White's last wife wrote an account and

1871
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 4: she said that, uh, they were just amazed. I mean

1872
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:15,640
Speaker 4: Doc was just looked horrible. He was all thin, like

1873
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 4: an old man. But you know whyatt just had this

1874
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 4: not I don't think like that. But anyway, I know

1875
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 4: it's Steve your friend or yeah, but uh, anyway, they

1876
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:36,639
Speaker 4: embrace and they go us to a table to the side,

1877
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 4: and they're chatting and uh, and then they stand up

1878
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,439
Speaker 4: later a few minutes later, however long it took, and

1879
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 4: they shake hands and she actually tells what White said,

1880
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 4: and and uh, you know, uh Doc said something like

1881
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,960
Speaker 4: who would have imagined you know that that you know

1882
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:54,160
Speaker 4: that that I would be the first to go or

1883
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 4: whatever between us and and uh, anyway, they.

1884
01:32:57,240 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 1: He's prophesizing his death, yes.

1885
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 4: He is, and and uh, white Earth comes back to

1886
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 4: the table and there's tears in his eyes.

1887
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:04,760
Speaker 1: Huh.

1888
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:08,040
Speaker 4: I mean there is no other account of white Earth crying.

1889
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 4: I guarantee you you're ever going to see that. But

1890
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 4: he's in tears, you know, after his friend parts and

1891
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:15,639
Speaker 4: he just knows he's not gonna ever see him again.

1892
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:21,200
Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, explain the mash up that occurs around the okay,

1893
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,479
Speaker 1: corall like who the I've read accounts of this, I

1894
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 1: still cannot explain or understand who's mad at who? Is

1895
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:31,599
Speaker 1: there an efficient way of explaining.

1896
01:33:31,200 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 4: Well, I'll try to make it byzantine. A lot of

1897
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 4: it has like.

1898
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:39,840
Speaker 1: Like he's mad about this and mad about that and

1899
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:42,559
Speaker 1: was hired by him. It's not like like.

1900
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 4: Well, there's lots of under there's lots of undercurrents. I mean,

1901
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 4: the Irk Brothers, they were on the side of law

1902
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 4: and order and uh whyaet earp had made this deal. Uh,

1903
01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 4: and it was not it was not a good idea,

1904
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:00,200
Speaker 4: you know, it was a form of gambling essentially. But uh,

1905
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,839
Speaker 4: the stage had been robbed, the Benson stage had been robbed,

1906
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 4: and two people have been killed, the driver and a passenger.

1907
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:11,639
Speaker 4: So we're now this is the obskirts of Tombstone. Yes,

1908
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:13,639
Speaker 4: so the stage coach was robbed and everything, and.

1909
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,080
Speaker 1: This is a way, this is like a scheduled piece

1910
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 1: of transportation into Tombstone.

1911
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,200
Speaker 4: Well, going out of Tombstone and it's robbed of what Well,

1912
01:34:21,280 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 4: it wasn't robbed because it went it went bad. So, uh,

1913
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 4: the guy that was the you know, the guy riding

1914
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,599
Speaker 4: shotgun you know when the when the when the robbers

1915
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 4: say hold, uh, he goes I hold for nobody and

1916
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 4: they start blasting away and the drivers killed instantly. He

1917
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:40,759
Speaker 4: falls down between the lines. So we got a runaway coach.

1918
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 4: They shoot at the coach as that's going away. They

1919
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 4: kill a passenger on top, you know. A mile or

1920
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:48,720
Speaker 4: two or several miles later, they finally get this, you

1921
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:51,960
Speaker 4: know this the coach stopped, so they know who the

1922
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 4: robbers were. They were three men and there was a

1923
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:57,600
Speaker 4: big hunt for him, Doc hollow They started initially, but

1924
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:02,000
Speaker 4: Wyatt's involved, ViRGE Warps Involvedohn beings involved, and they go

1925
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:03,559
Speaker 4: out for miles and days.

1926
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:05,519
Speaker 1: I got a quick question. Okay, this is where I

1927
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 1: started getting confused. Oh, how in the world is it

1928
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 1: Doc Holliday's business.

1929
01:35:11,160 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 4: Cuz Doc Holliday, this is something that Virgil Orb said.

1930
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,200
Speaker 4: Whenever there was a posse formed, Doc Holliday was always

1931
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:18,160
Speaker 4: there to help out.

1932
01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:20,599
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, He's like, I'm sick, I'm half dead,

1933
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:21,280
Speaker 1: I'm drunk.

1934
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, he he's needed. Well, plus his buddies

1935
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 4: are there, you know, Well there's Wyatt, there's Morgan. He's

1936
01:35:29,240 --> 01:35:29,719
Speaker 4: the same agent.

1937
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 1: So he just gets excited when there's a posse, like

1938
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:33,479
Speaker 1: your buddy drew a tag, you know.

1939
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 4: Maybe, well, I think he also thought it was the

1940
01:35:36,439 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 4: right thing to do and they need to help, you know.

1941
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: So he's like, he's one of the guys that likes

1942
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 1: to be in the posse.

1943
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,680
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly so, but he wasn't on that posse for

1944
01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 4: very long. But regardless, so they know who the robbers

1945
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 4: are because they catch one of them. And now I

1946
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:54,240
Speaker 4: think I mentioned that Wyatt he is eager to become

1947
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 4: the Coachese County sheriff. He thinks, if I catch these robbers,

1948
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:01,200
Speaker 4: I you know, that's gonna had a lot of credence

1949
01:36:01,240 --> 01:36:03,000
Speaker 4: to me and I'm going to be a hero. So

1950
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:05,960
Speaker 4: he approaches this is the bad idea. He approaches one

1951
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:08,920
Speaker 4: of the cowboys, Ike Clanton, who's in cohoots with all

1952
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:10,920
Speaker 4: that he knows everybody he's in codes with him. He's

1953
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,719
Speaker 4: considered a leader of the cowboys actually, and he says

1954
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 4: a proposition. He says, you know, wells Fargo is offering

1955
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars for the capture of these guys. If

1956
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 4: you help me capture them, I'll give you the five

1957
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,439
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. All I want is the glory. So just

1958
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 4: lead them to some place where we can get So

1959
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 4: Ike agrees, you know, he's he's going to turn in

1960
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:31,400
Speaker 4: you know, these people that he knows for the five

1961
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:37,440
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. Well later, uh, it gets a little complicated,

1962
01:36:37,479 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 4: but but yes, yes, but Ike Ike fears he fears

1963
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:46,400
Speaker 4: that Wyatt didn't keep his secret because Ike said, you know,

1964
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 4: I want to find out if you'll if it's if

1965
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 4: that award is good dead or alive. And so White

1966
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 4: finds out. He goes to the Wells Fargo office. They

1967
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 4: telegraph it and yeah, it's good debt or alive. But

1968
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 4: he doesn't tell the Wells Fargo man what's going going on.

1969
01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 4: But he reads the telegram and so he just kind

1970
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 4: of assumes that that he's doing that Ike is doing

1971
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:08,479
Speaker 4: something with White, and he approaches. Ike is, oh, yeah,

1972
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 4: you know you're gonna go get Scott.

1973
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:12,720
Speaker 1: I got Scott too confused. I have to understand I

1974
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 1: have to trust the other people. Are you confused? Uh,

1975
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm.

1976
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,920
Speaker 5: Waiting to hear Gang is like making sure he's not

1977
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 5: screwing him over exactly.

1978
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:25,080
Speaker 1: But who sent the telegram?

1979
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:26,960
Speaker 4: Whyatt sent the telegram to the will?

1980
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 1: Mike says, I the Ike, the inside man. Yes, he goes, hey,

1981
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:33,519
Speaker 1: is that I get five thousand bucks? Dead or alive? Yes?

1982
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: And so they said, let me check. Yes, Whyatt telegrams

1983
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:40,280
Speaker 1: the bank. Yes, well what's now the bank? Wells Fargo.

1984
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 1: They say, no problem, Dead's fine, But then what well,

1985
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:48,679
Speaker 1: because I understand, like the then well.

1986
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:52,280
Speaker 4: The Wills Fargo man sees the telegram from Wyatt, from

1987
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:55,880
Speaker 4: Wyatt and back, and so he makes the connection, oh

1988
01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 4: he and he's he sees he saw Wyatt and Ike

1989
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:02,559
Speaker 4: talking together. So he makes the connection that Ike is

1990
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:06,040
Speaker 4: working with Wyatt, and he mentions it to Ike, and

1991
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 4: Ike starts freaking out because.

1992
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:16,080
Speaker 1: So he goes, oh I understand you're working Yeah yeah Wyatt.

1993
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,759
Speaker 4: Yes exactly. Because Ike is fearing for his death because

1994
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 4: this happened to got men of the cowboys who got

1995
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 4: caught or or or spilled the beans they were they disappeared,

1996
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 4: and so Ike is terrified, and so he goes and

1997
01:38:26,080 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 4: gets mad at Wyatt. Then he accuses Doc of telling people,

1998
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 4: and he just goes into this rampage and he's just

1999
01:38:33,479 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 4: angry and you guys, lie, I mean, you get you.

2000
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:39,360
Speaker 4: You weren't supposed to tell about this. And and then

2001
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:42,559
Speaker 4: he gets drunk and he starts keeps ramting and raving

2002
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:45,000
Speaker 4: all night long and he's he says, you know, and

2003
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:47,880
Speaker 4: then the next the next day, and I'm skipping over

2004
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff, but it's mostly Ike is the

2005
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 4: problem here. The next day, uh, he's saying, you know, uh,

2006
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:57,479
Speaker 4: he's telling people. As soon as those brothers get up,

2007
01:38:57,520 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 4: I'm gonna get him, you know, or I'm gonna get

2008
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:00,640
Speaker 4: Doc Holiday and interrupt you.

2009
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 5: Like, the cowboys are Ike's gang, right, like.

2010
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:08,840
Speaker 4: A loose Yes, it's a loose amalgamation. And some people

2011
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 4: look at Ike as a leader or one of I

2012
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:13,080
Speaker 4: just there wasn't just one leader, but it's one of

2013
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:16,000
Speaker 4: the leading men. But yeah, the cowboys are all and

2014
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 4: you know, not all the cowboys were stage robbers. Mostly

2015
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:19,519
Speaker 4: they were just rustlers.

2016
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 1: Are they like they're like a mafia? It's style, yeah,

2017
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:24,439
Speaker 1: get away.

2018
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:27,120
Speaker 4: I mean you know, there's you got certain ranchers that

2019
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 4: are fencing the cattle for the rustlers. They're actually going

2020
01:39:30,160 --> 01:39:32,280
Speaker 4: over the border to Mexico, which is just a day's

2021
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 4: right away, and stealing cattle. And there's you know, there's

2022
01:39:35,040 --> 01:39:37,559
Speaker 4: butchers and others that they just wink wink and they

2023
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 4: buy the cattle. And and that's why so many people

2024
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:44,080
Speaker 4: and merchants and Tombstone tended to let things with the

2025
01:39:44,120 --> 01:39:46,640
Speaker 4: cowboys go because they were making money off of them,

2026
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 4: and the herbs were kind of a you know, monkey

2027
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 4: wrench and this whole you know, they were they were

2028
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:53,799
Speaker 4: putting to stop those kinds of things. So anyway, I

2029
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:54,160
Speaker 4: Ike is.

2030
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 1: On a ranch, You're doing a phenomenal job.

2031
01:39:57,040 --> 01:39:57,519
Speaker 4: Oh thanks.

2032
01:39:57,840 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 1: Anyway, like the first time in my life I've ever

2033
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:00,479
Speaker 1: understood this.

2034
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:03,360
Speaker 4: Oh well good, yeah, well, I prefer you read the book.

2035
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 1: But no, no, I will. That's why I've never understood this.

2036
01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:10,160
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, Ike's on a rampage, he's drunk, He's making

2037
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 4: all kinds of threats. And these are on top of

2038
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:15,320
Speaker 4: threats that other cowboys had made in the past. They

2039
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 4: just don't like the IRBs, So the McClary brothers, they

2040
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:21,719
Speaker 4: had threatened him in the past. So, uh, Doc Holiday

2041
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:25,439
Speaker 4: arrives in town. He'd been in Tucson and Ikes gets

2042
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:27,639
Speaker 4: at argument with him, and they're threatening each other.

2043
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:30,080
Speaker 1: And what's there? What are they arguing about?

2044
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 4: Well, because Ike believes that Doc is in on it too,

2045
01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:35,800
Speaker 4: that Doc has been spreading a word about this because

2046
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 4: he's buddies with the earth, he's running with the herbs,

2047
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 4: and he's in And Whyatt's you know, so.

2048
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,320
Speaker 1: These guys are like they're drunk, they're drunk, they're accusing

2049
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: each other stuff.

2050
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:45,599
Speaker 4: And Whyatt had Doc come in to explain because White

2051
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:47,679
Speaker 4: tells Ike, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything

2052
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 4: to Doc, And when Doc gets here, he'll be able to,

2053
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:52,760
Speaker 4: you know, tell you well, Doc, you know he he

2054
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 4: gets angry quickly anyway, and so it's just mostly just

2055
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 4: kind of this you know, shouting match between the two

2056
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 4: of them. But the next morning, okay, so Ike's going around.

2057
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:06,280
Speaker 1: I think that if someone had said, let's all get

2058
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:09,160
Speaker 1: together and talk this through, maybe let's let's just.

2059
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 6: Go forward with the five thousand dollars planning, Yeah, that

2060
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:12,639
Speaker 6: we had lined out.

2061
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,120
Speaker 4: Well, speaking of lines from the movie toostone, this is

2062
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 4: where it comes from. The So the night before the

2063
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:21,040
Speaker 4: okay corral, your Doc is confronting Ike, and he says

2064
01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 4: and Ike says, I'm not healed, you know, And Doc says, well,

2065
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:26,080
Speaker 4: go get healed. You know, I'll meet them either. That's

2066
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:27,360
Speaker 4: that kind of threats that are going on.

2067
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:28,479
Speaker 1: But guy, I don't have my gun.

2068
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:30,000
Speaker 4: I don't have my gun. I'm not healed, you know,

2069
01:41:30,040 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 4: I don't have my gun. And Doc says, go get

2070
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:34,920
Speaker 4: your gun. And and so Ike spends all night up

2071
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 4: and he's gambling and he's drinking, he's not shaving. He's

2072
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:41,240
Speaker 4: for a pretty disheveled I'm thinking. And the next morning,

2073
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:45,519
Speaker 4: you know, Virgil, people are You have to remember, people

2074
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:49,120
Speaker 4: that spend the night as gamblers, they go to bed

2075
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:51,800
Speaker 4: late and they sleep late. So all these guys that

2076
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:54,400
Speaker 4: are involved, like the IRPs, they're getting up like at

2077
01:41:54,439 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 4: noon or what I mean, that's that's the normal day

2078
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,240
Speaker 4: for them. They're sleeping until noon. So people are waking

2079
01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:01,960
Speaker 4: up Virgil and White and said, Mike's going around here

2080
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:03,960
Speaker 4: and he's threatened to kill you guys, and he's you

2081
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 4: and why it's saying Okay, I'm gonna sleep a little longer.

2082
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:09,600
Speaker 4: And then they weren't too worried. It's Virgil is the

2083
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 4: same way.

2084
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 6: So I'm still saying that the Western trope of showing

2085
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 6: a showdown at high noon is largely derivative of the

2086
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, I had.

2087
01:42:19,640 --> 01:42:21,040
Speaker 1: I dated a girl for a while. She was a

2088
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:25,840
Speaker 1: flight attendant and a gambling addict, very erratic sleep hours.

2089
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 1: Got a double whammy there. Yeah.

2090
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 4: So anyway, finally they get up and and Virgil he says, Okay,

2091
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:35,639
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go take care of Ike, and he finds

2092
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 4: he goes, He finds.

2093
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:38,000
Speaker 1: Him, but take care of him in what way?

2094
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:40,120
Speaker 4: Well, and arrest him, you know, and take his gun

2095
01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:42,000
Speaker 4: away because he's armed. You that's supposed to carry gun.

2096
01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,080
Speaker 1: So he's like, Ike's wanding around town hungover.

2097
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 4: Threatening people, you know, shouting, and he sneaks up behind

2098
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:51,679
Speaker 4: him and cloppers him over the head, takes his gun.

2099
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:53,360
Speaker 4: I mean it was a serious blow because he had

2100
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:54,719
Speaker 4: to go to the doctor and get abandoned.

2101
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:57,240
Speaker 1: But then they's like a comic quality dog there is,

2102
01:42:57,439 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 1: so they take I'm not making fun of the book,

2103
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,679
Speaker 1: like up up until the shooting, there's like, yeah, there's

2104
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:03,440
Speaker 1: like a comic.

2105
01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:05,640
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, because I mean it's it's crazy. But

2106
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:09,439
Speaker 4: they take him to the court in Tombstone and uh

2107
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:12,839
Speaker 4: so Ike is there and Wyatt's in there, and uh,

2108
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:15,439
Speaker 4: you know he's gonna get fined at course, but that's

2109
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 4: where I says, you know, he starts yelling at White,

2110
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,519
Speaker 4: and he says, all I want is four feet of ground,

2111
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:22,720
Speaker 4: you know, and you took my guns away, give him

2112
01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:25,080
Speaker 4: all my guns and and uh there'll be a reason

2113
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 4: for a corner's in quote. I mean, he just gets

2114
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:30,600
Speaker 4: goes on and on hands distance. All I want is

2115
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 4: four feet of ground between us to shoot you. He

2116
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 4: wants to have a gun fight, right, All I want

2117
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:37,320
Speaker 4: is give me four feet of ground you And.

2118
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: Uh, why it didn't have to say like what does

2119
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:39,360
Speaker 1: that mean?

2120
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 4: No, exactly, yeah, and so uh anyway, then the McClary

2121
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 4: brothers arrived, or the McCary at one of the brothers

2122
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:50,519
Speaker 4: arrives in town. And after this incident with Ike, uh,

2123
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 4: you know, the mccary's had also been making threats. And

2124
01:43:53,120 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 4: why it comes up to uh to Tom mccrarury, who's outside,

2125
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,439
Speaker 4: and Tom McClary says something like, well, if you want

2126
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:00,400
Speaker 4: to fight, I'll fight you right now. Well, White gets

2127
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 4: his revolver and hammers them over the head. Took the

2128
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,360
Speaker 4: fight right out of Tom McClary. But then when Frank

2129
01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:08,320
Speaker 4: McClary gets the town. It's like, why did White hit

2130
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,160
Speaker 4: my brother? You know? And so so now the McClary's

2131
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:13,680
Speaker 4: who are friends with the Clantons, they're all mad at

2132
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:16,400
Speaker 4: the Herbs and they're continuing to make threats. And then

2133
01:44:16,479 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 4: people are so this is what's amazing. So, you know,

2134
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:22,280
Speaker 4: Virgil and White and Morgan, they're kind of wandering around

2135
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:23,919
Speaker 4: the streets. There's a lot of people in the streets,

2136
01:44:24,080 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 4: and people keep coming up to Virgil says, there's these

2137
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 4: guys that are going to kill you, you know, they're

2138
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 4: threatning you or whatever, and it's like he knows who

2139
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:32,120
Speaker 4: it is, but but over and over and then there's

2140
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 4: other men that come up and say there's like this

2141
01:44:34,160 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 4: vigilante group or minute men, and it says, hey, I

2142
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:38,960
Speaker 4: can get like, you know, so many men together if

2143
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:40,760
Speaker 4: you want help or whatever. Verre just no, no, I

2144
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 4: don't want any help.

2145
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,040
Speaker 1: Like we'll get guys to help you beat up Yes,

2146
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 1: exactly the rest of us.

2147
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:47,680
Speaker 4: Yes, And Virgil says, no, no, you know, I can

2148
01:44:47,720 --> 01:44:51,320
Speaker 4: take care of it. And finally, you know, Virgil just

2149
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:54,240
Speaker 4: gets so much of this and even Johnny Bean, who's

2150
01:44:54,320 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 4: the uh, the sheriff, the County sheriff. Uh, Virgil says, well,

2151
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 4: can you go and disarm Humber whatever, and Johnny being

2152
01:45:00,920 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 4: I don't really want to do that, you know, And

2153
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 4: so finally Virgil is fed up, you know, and after

2154
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:08,160
Speaker 4: the last time, somebody says, these guys are down there

2155
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:11,439
Speaker 4: by flies boarding house, which is where Doc is staying

2156
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 4: and which you know, that's kind of interesting. They're threatening

2157
01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 4: Doc and here they are just right right next to

2158
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:18,760
Speaker 4: where Doc lives. And so Virgil has had enough and

2159
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:20,880
Speaker 4: he says, you know, those guys are carrying guns in

2160
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 4: town against the law. You know, that's insult to me.

2161
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:27,040
Speaker 4: It's disrespecting me in my office. That's disprected the laws.

2162
01:45:27,439 --> 01:45:29,960
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna go disarm him. And so he gets Wyatt,

2163
01:45:30,280 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 4: he gets Morgan, who are all there, and then uh,

2164
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 4: Doc Holliday, you're not gonna leave me out, are you?

2165
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:37,600
Speaker 4: And White goes well, he says it's going to be

2166
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:39,960
Speaker 4: a hard fight, and Doc says, that's the kind I like.

2167
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:45,240
Speaker 4: And so he's deputized is paid gig? What's that now?

2168
01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:48,240
Speaker 1: When Doc Holly joins a posse or Doc Holliday does this,

2169
01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 1: there's no financial.

2170
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:54,680
Speaker 4: No, usually not sometimes wells Fargo would reimburse them, you know,

2171
01:45:54,760 --> 01:45:56,960
Speaker 4: kind of like a per diem or you know, if

2172
01:45:57,000 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 4: they you know food. I mean, sometimes they abould give

2173
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:03,400
Speaker 4: them money for the time they spent going after these individuals.

2174
01:46:03,439 --> 01:46:05,839
Speaker 4: And that was also another kind of sore point between

2175
01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 4: the Irt brothers and Johnny Bean Johnny Been, who was

2176
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:11,960
Speaker 4: the county sheriff who was leading that posse after the

2177
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:15,360
Speaker 4: stage robbers. We talked about he paid himself and his men,

2178
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:17,920
Speaker 4: but he didn't pay the IRPs and the earth will

2179
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 4: what about we were riding with you whatever? And finally

2180
01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 4: Wells Fargo, I guess coughed up some money for him.

2181
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 4: But anyway, Virgil Arth decides I'm gonna go down there.

2182
01:46:25,360 --> 01:46:28,160
Speaker 4: I hear they're down here by you know, flies boarding house.

2183
01:46:28,439 --> 01:46:31,200
Speaker 4: So we got Wyatt, we got Virgil, we got Morgan,

2184
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:32,240
Speaker 4: we got Doc Holliday.

2185
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:34,800
Speaker 5: And Virgil has the authority to do that because he's

2186
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:35,759
Speaker 5: a US Marshal.

2187
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 4: Well, it's mostly because at that time he's also the

2188
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 4: Chief of Police of Tombstone, so he's both chief of

2189
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 4: police and a deputy US Marshall. So he's in charge

2190
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:48,160
Speaker 4: of enforcing Tombstone's laws. And he's just sick of these threats.

2191
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, after a while, it's like, you know,

2192
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 4: you can keep saying I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna

2193
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:54,240
Speaker 4: kill you, and you know, pretty soon you're you're kind

2194
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 4: of done with that, right because the guy might kill

2195
01:46:57,280 --> 01:46:59,840
Speaker 4: you. You don't know when the threat ends and when it

2196
01:46:59,920 --> 01:47:02,360
Speaker 4: was I was real, But mainly they're breaking the law.

2197
01:47:02,439 --> 01:47:04,639
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna disarm him. So they around the corner

2198
01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:07,640
Speaker 4: and they see the you know, they see the Clantons,

2199
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:09,760
Speaker 4: and they see the Macari's up there, and they see

2200
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 4: the horses. There's a couple of horses, and they see

2201
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,280
Speaker 4: Johnny Bean, and Johnny Bean has been talking to him,

2202
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:18,080
Speaker 4: and Johnny Bean keeps starts rushing towards IRPs and Holiday

2203
01:47:18,120 --> 01:47:19,759
Speaker 4: and he keeps looking back over his shoulder.

2204
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:22,160
Speaker 1: He's scared, you know, and he's shot in the back.

2205
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,240
Speaker 4: Well not that you get shot about. He he's scared

2206
01:47:24,240 --> 01:47:26,720
Speaker 4: of what's gonna happen. And he's says, Virgil, don't go

2207
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:28,760
Speaker 4: down there. They're gonna, you know, they'll you know, there's

2208
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:30,320
Speaker 4: gonna be a battle, there's gonna be a war. Don't

2209
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:32,720
Speaker 4: go down there. And Virgil says, I'm gonna disarm them,

2210
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:36,040
Speaker 4: and then Johnny Ban lies. He says, I've already disarmed him. Well,

2211
01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:39,120
Speaker 4: he had not disarmed him. And really, all Johnny Bean

2212
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:40,720
Speaker 4: had to say if he wanted to prevent this, he

2213
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:43,679
Speaker 4: could have said, they're leaving town, because if you're leaving town,

2214
01:47:43,760 --> 01:47:46,679
Speaker 4: you can have your guns. He doesn't say that. In fact,

2215
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:48,880
Speaker 4: you know, he asked him to leave town, but they said, oh,

2216
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:51,639
Speaker 4: we're gonna hang around a little bit longer. So anyway,

2217
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:53,040
Speaker 4: he lies to him. He's trying to get you know,

2218
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:56,240
Speaker 4: I've already disarmed him. And so this kind of breathed

2219
01:47:56,280 --> 01:47:59,120
Speaker 4: a little air of relief into IRPs and Doc Holliday,

2220
01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:01,000
Speaker 4: Oh okay, they put their guns away, you know.

2221
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 1: Oh they believe them.

2222
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:05,280
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they believe them. Yeah, because but Virgil still

2223
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 4: going down there. But he had his uh, he had

2224
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 4: his revolver in his waistband at the front where he

2225
01:48:10,439 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 4: could grab it easily. So he pushes it back around

2226
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 4: or whichever side it was, and uh, he takes that

2227
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:18,640
Speaker 4: he has this cane. It was Doc Holliday's cane he

2228
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:21,120
Speaker 4: was carrying. And then he had given his shotgun to

2229
01:48:21,160 --> 01:48:23,280
Speaker 4: Doc Holliday who was supposed to hide it under his

2230
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:26,160
Speaker 4: long coat, which he which he did. But they're not

2231
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:28,240
Speaker 4: pulling out their guns. And like I said, White put

2232
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:30,679
Speaker 4: his He carried his gun in a coat pocket, which

2233
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:33,000
Speaker 4: is an aside. It is a very odd all the

2234
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 4: movies that were in gun leather, right, but not at

2235
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,240
Speaker 4: the Okay Corral. These I mean White had his in

2236
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:41,519
Speaker 4: a pocket. Doc Holladay had a revolver in his pocket,

2237
01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:44,479
Speaker 4: and Virgil had his gun in a waistband. It wasn't

2238
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:48,599
Speaker 4: even a gun holster belt. Uh So, anyway, they're relieved, Okay,

2239
01:48:48,600 --> 01:48:51,679
Speaker 4: we're still going to go down there. But they think

2240
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:52,679
Speaker 4: that there's no guns.

2241
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: Do you think they think that.

2242
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 4: They think that, yes, because that because they mentioned how

2243
01:48:56,960 --> 01:49:00,439
Speaker 4: they had put their guns away. They they believed the sheriff.

2244
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 4: You know, why would he lie to us? He says,

2245
01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:04,000
Speaker 4: I've already disarmed him.

2246
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:07,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to overplay this part, but at this point,

2247
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 1: how many of these people do you think are in

2248
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:11,960
Speaker 1: some degree intoxicated?

2249
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:16,160
Speaker 4: Well, Ike is definitely intoxicated. I don't know that Doc

2250
01:49:16,200 --> 01:49:19,559
Speaker 4: Holliday was intoxicated. Some people believe that he might have been,

2251
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:23,040
Speaker 4: but from what I've read, I mean he had just

2252
01:49:23,080 --> 01:49:25,680
Speaker 4: gotten up a short time before. I mean, there's no

2253
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:28,799
Speaker 4: accounts of him carousing in the bars and all that stuff.

2254
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:31,400
Speaker 4: So I don't think he was inebriated, but he might

2255
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 4: have had a few drinks.

2256
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but they're like there's like

2257
01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:36,160
Speaker 1: a there's a clear headed quality.

2258
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 4: Yes, And Whider wasn't known to drink. I can't say

2259
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:42,479
Speaker 4: he was a teetotaler, but some people do. But he

2260
01:49:42,960 --> 01:49:46,519
Speaker 4: had stained for the most part. Virgil hadn't been drinking.

2261
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 4: Morgan probably hadn't been drinking. And I really don't think

2262
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:52,120
Speaker 4: either the McClary brothers, Frank or Tom had been drinking,

2263
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:55,040
Speaker 4: or Billy Clanton, who was just you know, like nineteen

2264
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:58,160
Speaker 4: years old. But I was definitely, I mean, he was

2265
01:49:58,200 --> 01:50:01,120
Speaker 4: way over the top, out of control drunk. And like

2266
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:03,479
Speaker 4: I said, it was all his ranting and Arabian threats

2267
01:50:03,479 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 4: that really brought this to a head. So they get

2268
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:09,519
Speaker 4: close and now keep in mind, this lot that they're

2269
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:12,679
Speaker 4: in near the Okay Corral is they say, from fifteen

2270
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:15,720
Speaker 4: to nineteen feet wide. It's a very constricted space. There's

2271
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:18,080
Speaker 4: actually a couple of horses there. They come down there

2272
01:50:18,080 --> 01:50:19,760
Speaker 4: and the first thing they see is these guys have

2273
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:23,160
Speaker 4: their guns. They are armed, and so the first thing,

2274
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:27,320
Speaker 4: Virgil says, boys, I want your guns. Well, they immediately

2275
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,280
Speaker 4: reach for their guns and Virgil says, hold, you know,

2276
01:50:30,439 --> 01:50:32,720
Speaker 4: I don't want that. He holds a cane up and

2277
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:35,560
Speaker 4: White Irp admitted in his testimony that he was the

2278
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 4: first one to fire. He fires at Frank McCary. He said,

2279
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 4: I fired first because he considered Frank to be the

2280
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:44,360
Speaker 4: best shot and the coolest under fire, so he wants

2281
01:50:44,400 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 4: to take him out first. He hits him in the stomach,

2282
01:50:46,439 --> 01:50:49,840
Speaker 4: doesn't kill him right away. So whyaet Irp actually opens

2283
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:53,040
Speaker 4: the gunfight there at the OK Corral after that.

2284
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:55,000
Speaker 1: If he hadn't shot, do you think there would have

2285
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:56,040
Speaker 1: been shots fired?

2286
01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:01,240
Speaker 4: I don't know. I I I do know that whyatt

2287
01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:02,800
Speaker 4: IRV thought that they were going to be shot, or

2288
01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:05,200
Speaker 4: he wouldn't have done that. He felt that it was imminent.

2289
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:08,080
Speaker 4: In fact, they even talked about They kept bringing up

2290
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:10,360
Speaker 4: the word fight. You know, they talked about fight. You

2291
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 4: know what if they fight, you know, well we'll shoot

2292
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:13,960
Speaker 4: their horses and you know all this kind of stuff.

2293
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 4: They were kind of thinking about it. You know, White said,

2294
01:51:16,240 --> 01:51:18,679
Speaker 4: you know, we were pretty sure they were going to fight.

2295
01:51:18,800 --> 01:51:21,000
Speaker 4: And so when they looked like they were going for

2296
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:23,040
Speaker 4: their guns, not to just turn them over, but they

2297
01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:26,519
Speaker 4: actually you know, kill. He decides I'm going to take

2298
01:51:26,520 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 4: out and that's what he testized, that I took him

2299
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:32,639
Speaker 4: out first. And there's just that very split second. In fact,

2300
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 4: they say that Whyatt's shot and the shot from Frank

2301
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:39,439
Speaker 4: which missed, were with a split second. I mean they

2302
01:51:39,479 --> 01:51:41,960
Speaker 4: thought it was a single shot. It was very close,

2303
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:45,760
Speaker 4: and then there was this brief hesitation or pause. It

2304
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 4: was like it was almost like this second, where is

2305
01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:51,840
Speaker 4: this really happening. It's like they're kind of processing this.

2306
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:55,559
Speaker 4: We've actually started this thing, and then it just gets crazy.

2307
01:51:56,040 --> 01:52:00,439
Speaker 4: Thirty seconds, thirty shots. Doc Holliday fires is sh shotgun

2308
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:02,799
Speaker 4: at Tom McClary. He's kind of hiding behind a horse.

2309
01:52:03,479 --> 01:52:05,960
Speaker 4: Wyatt ends up hitting the horse. The horse, you know,

2310
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:09,439
Speaker 4: jerks away, and then Doc Holladay hits him once in

2311
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:13,519
Speaker 4: the side with the one barrel and Tom McClary starts

2312
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:15,840
Speaker 4: running away and collapses like less than a block away.

2313
01:52:16,120 --> 01:52:19,040
Speaker 4: We sent like fourteen pelus rude into his chest cavity.

2314
01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 4: Doc tried to sue shoot a second time. Something malfunctioned

2315
01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 4: with his gun. He throws it down the shotgun, he

2316
01:52:25,240 --> 01:52:27,760
Speaker 4: throws it down, he goes for his revolver. By this

2317
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:32,200
Speaker 4: time we have Frank McClary. He's wounded in the stomach.

2318
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 4: He's kind of holding onto this horse getting out to

2319
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:37,519
Speaker 4: the middle of the street. The horse breaks away and

2320
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:42,439
Speaker 4: Doc Holiday is getting ready to shoot. That's when Frank says,

2321
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:46,120
Speaker 4: Doc Holliday, I have you now or whatever? And Doc

2322
01:52:46,120 --> 01:52:49,639
Speaker 4: Holliday says, you're a daisy if you do, and Doc

2323
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 4: Holiday fires. But also before dark callag get fired.

2324
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 1: Okay, why does he yell Doc Holladay, have you now?

2325
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:58,360
Speaker 4: Because he had his gun on him. You know, Doc

2326
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:01,360
Speaker 4: Holladay's out there in the street, he has no protection.

2327
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:03,240
Speaker 1: But he decides us to advertise this.

2328
01:53:03,400 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, he says, I have you now? And then Doc

2329
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:07,400
Speaker 4: Holliday and this is in the testim he says, you're

2330
01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:11,800
Speaker 4: a daisy if you have But Morgan irp. He ends

2331
01:53:11,880 --> 01:53:14,479
Speaker 4: up shooting Frank and hits him in the head and

2332
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 4: Frank just goes down immediately, and there's a big scuffle.

2333
01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:21,679
Speaker 4: I mean, people are starting, you know, it's thirty seconds.

2334
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:24,919
Speaker 4: People are starting to gather and they're gathering around Frank McClary.

2335
01:53:24,960 --> 01:53:27,639
Speaker 4: He's down here on the ground and Doc Hallady's starting

2336
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:29,320
Speaker 4: to yell he tried to kill me. I'm going to

2337
01:53:29,439 --> 01:53:32,200
Speaker 4: kill that sob or whatever. And they're pulling him back.

2338
01:53:32,439 --> 01:53:35,439
Speaker 4: Morgan Irp. He was hit across his shoulder blades. But

2339
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:37,559
Speaker 4: he's the one that, even on the ground, he raises

2340
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,280
Speaker 4: his revolver. He's the one that kills essentially the killing

2341
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:43,879
Speaker 4: shot of Frank McLaury. There's one other individual, Billy Clanton.

2342
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:46,200
Speaker 4: He's up against the wall of this building, on the

2343
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:49,240
Speaker 4: side of the lot and he's wounded several times. And

2344
01:53:49,280 --> 01:53:52,759
Speaker 4: as he's kind of you know, sliding down against the wall,

2345
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 4: he's trying to fit. He's fiddling with his revolver and

2346
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 4: c s fly the gallery owner. He has a Henry rifle.

2347
01:53:59,560 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 4: He goes up to him and he takes the revolver

2348
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:04,120
Speaker 4: away and and Billy Clinton says, can you get me

2349
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:07,280
Speaker 4: more cartridges? You know, he's saying I need more cartridges

2350
01:54:07,360 --> 01:54:10,519
Speaker 4: or whatever. Yeah, and uh and they take him to

2351
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 4: a building and and he has a gruesome death. I

2352
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 4: mean people are coming in and get the people away,

2353
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:18,479
Speaker 4: you know, get the crowd away, and and uh, yeah,

2354
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:23,480
Speaker 4: it was not a pleasant death for him.

2355
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:25,960
Speaker 5: What about drunk Ike what was going on with him?

2356
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:29,240
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good question. Yes, so that's what. In fact,

2357
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 4: that's one of the big things in the gunfight.

2358
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:32,080
Speaker 1: You know.

2359
01:54:32,360 --> 01:54:37,040
Speaker 4: Ike suddenly sobers up and he runs up to Wyatt

2360
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 4: after those first shots and he says, I'm unarmed, I'm

2361
01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:42,800
Speaker 4: on arm, you know. He says, well, you know, the

2362
01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:45,240
Speaker 4: fight has commenced. Get out of here, the fight has commenced,

2363
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 4: and so I takes off running. Yeah, he just runs away.

2364
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:50,840
Speaker 1: Has a chance to shoot he could have shot him.

2365
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:53,840
Speaker 4: Yes, but he says the fight has commenced and get

2366
01:54:53,840 --> 01:54:55,840
Speaker 4: out of here or get armed or whatever. I can't

2367
01:54:55,880 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 4: remember the exact phrase, but he does say the fight

2368
01:54:57,960 --> 01:54:59,240
Speaker 4: has commenced, and he pushes like.

2369
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:01,879
Speaker 1: The guys have as they say that just people wouldn't say.

2370
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 4: Now, yeah that's true. Yeah, it is so so yeah. Yeah,

2371
01:55:11,120 --> 01:55:14,680
Speaker 4: it's so surreal also because I mean, you know, there's

2372
01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:17,200
Speaker 4: black powder, smoke, there's flame coming out of the barrels

2373
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:20,320
Speaker 4: of these pistols, and Ike is up there with Wyatt

2374
01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:22,320
Speaker 4: trying you It's like, I'm unarmed, you know, and don't

2375
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:25,040
Speaker 4: shoot me. And he's the reason they're there, He's the

2376
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 4: reason they're there. Yes, uh, And he runs away doesn't

2377
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:30,960
Speaker 4: help his brother. His poor little brother is getting murdered.

2378
01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:33,800
Speaker 1: He gets out of there unscathed.

2379
01:55:33,160 --> 01:55:37,000
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, and then I later, of course, he presses

2380
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:39,840
Speaker 4: charges against the Herbs in the holiday, and that's how

2381
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:42,600
Speaker 4: we have this this hearing. It's called the Spicer Hearing,

2382
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,600
Speaker 4: and it's pages and pages of testimony and it's some

2383
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 4: of the most confusing reading. I mean it's like one

2384
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:50,040
Speaker 4: person says one thing, the other person was the other,

2385
01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:54,000
Speaker 4: and their eyewitnesses nobody really agrees with one another. And

2386
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:57,000
Speaker 4: my favorite quote is from the dressmaker across the street

2387
01:55:57,400 --> 01:55:59,400
Speaker 4: and she saw the whole thing, and they asked her

2388
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:02,400
Speaker 4: a specific she goes, I don't know. It was all confusion,

2389
01:56:02,840 --> 01:56:05,080
Speaker 4: it was, and even for the people that were involved,

2390
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:07,680
Speaker 4: it was confusion. I mean it was just a cotal

2391
01:56:07,960 --> 01:56:12,440
Speaker 4: chaos in those exactly. Yeah. But guess who's not hurt.

2392
01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:15,720
Speaker 4: White Herb the one guy that doesn't get, you know,

2393
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 4: other than Ike not a scratch on white earp and

2394
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:21,200
Speaker 4: he's right in the middle of it. Virgil Herb's wounded.

2395
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:24,280
Speaker 4: Doc Holla Day gets a flesh wound in his hip.

2396
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,400
Speaker 4: Morgan IRBs gets a pretty serious wound in his shoulder,

2397
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,520
Speaker 4: and then later Doc Holliday goes up his room and

2398
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:33,600
Speaker 4: Kate Elder's there, the Big Nose Kate, and she writes

2399
01:56:33,640 --> 01:56:37,320
Speaker 4: about this and and he starts crying, and he says

2400
01:56:37,480 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 4: it was awful, just awful.

2401
01:56:40,080 --> 01:56:41,320
Speaker 1: Well, didn't you like about it?

2402
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:43,840
Speaker 4: I think the killing, I think, you know what I mean,

2403
01:56:44,160 --> 01:56:47,160
Speaker 4: even though he's a even though Doc is angry, it's like,

2404
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 4: you know, when you kill somebody, I think that's a

2405
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:53,200
Speaker 4: whole different layer, right, Yeah, you know, I think it's

2406
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:55,240
Speaker 4: I think these men.

2407
01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:57,560
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that like that. I thought there's some

2408
01:56:57,640 --> 01:56:59,240
Speaker 1: other because I was when I said that, What was

2409
01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:01,040
Speaker 1: you crying about? Like none of his buddies got killed?

2410
01:57:01,120 --> 01:57:03,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, but it's I think it's just the

2411
01:57:03,040 --> 01:57:05,280
Speaker 4: fact that these men were killed and they had I

2412
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:08,320
Speaker 4: mean they had to. I mean, uh but uh, you know,

2413
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:10,400
Speaker 4: it wasn't about his wound. I mean, it was just this.

2414
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:13,520
Speaker 4: It was horrific to him that that they you know,

2415
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:16,280
Speaker 4: I mean, he sent, you know, fourteen pellets into the

2416
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:19,280
Speaker 4: chest cavity of Tom McCary and you know he's dead.

2417
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:22,720
Speaker 4: So I mean it's it was I think, very sobering.

2418
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:26,640
Speaker 4: But yeah, I I Clinton is the villain and all

2419
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:29,680
Speaker 4: that he's the one that really egged things on. And

2420
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 4: uh yeah, and Ike Clinton gets killed himself. Oh a

2421
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:37,680
Speaker 4: few years later, and again he's running away. He was

2422
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:40,480
Speaker 4: he there were some guys looking for him for rustling cattle.

2423
01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:42,880
Speaker 1: And and looking for him for something unrelated.

2424
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:45,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, unrelated to this. And he approaches cabin. He didn't

2425
01:57:45,440 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 4: know that these guys are in there, and as soon

2426
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:49,160
Speaker 4: as he does, he jumps on his horse and starts

2427
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:52,640
Speaker 4: to know skidadling. And this is nobody's afraid to shoot

2428
01:57:52,640 --> 01:57:54,200
Speaker 4: somebody in the back if you're a long man. And

2429
01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:56,400
Speaker 4: so they blaze away at him and he tumbles off

2430
01:57:56,440 --> 01:57:58,520
Speaker 4: his horse and it's the one time he wasn't able

2431
01:57:58,560 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 4: to run away.

2432
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:06,640
Speaker 1: So wow, dude, that's a great uh understand good?

2433
01:58:07,320 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 2: Good, there's the pre and post understanding.

2434
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:14,480
Speaker 4: Ye, well, it's more clear in the book. Sure, I'm

2435
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:16,280
Speaker 4: a much better writer than I am a narrator.

2436
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,040
Speaker 1: That must mean you're pretty hell of a good writer.

2437
01:58:18,120 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 4: Oh well, thanks, I hope.

2438
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:21,720
Speaker 1: So, yeah, what's your next book? You're doing?

2439
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:25,040
Speaker 4: So the next book is focusing on Jesse and Frank

2440
01:58:25,120 --> 01:58:28,640
Speaker 4: James and the Civil Wars Bushwhackers and under Bloody Bill

2441
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:31,560
Speaker 4: Anderson and a trail their Civil War time, yes, and

2442
01:58:31,600 --> 01:58:34,240
Speaker 4: how that and how that leads to their outlawry. And

2443
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:35,880
Speaker 4: I'm going to talk a little bit about the birth

2444
01:58:35,920 --> 01:58:39,680
Speaker 4: of the American outlaw because they're really the quintessential outlaw

2445
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:42,840
Speaker 4: Jesse and Frank James, the James Younger Gang. So that

2446
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:45,200
Speaker 4: that the book is called Bushwhackers actually, so it's going

2447
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:47,440
Speaker 4: to focus on that that period. But like I say,

2448
01:58:47,520 --> 01:58:50,360
Speaker 4: take us into how that led to their outlaw career.

2449
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: We just spent some time reading about because this project

2450
01:58:54,240 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 1: we're working on about the Buffalo Hide Hunters. Uh, one

2451
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:01,880
Speaker 1: of these main one of the main Buffalo high Hunters

2452
01:59:03,280 --> 01:59:06,200
Speaker 1: that wrote a very good account of his time. He

2453
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:11,760
Speaker 1: was involved in those like those Borderland Civil War that

2454
01:59:12,000 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 1: was like yeah, the paramilitary shit.

2455
01:59:16,320 --> 01:59:18,840
Speaker 4: The border Ruffians like yeah.

2456
01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:24,360
Speaker 1: This kind of like the plane close paramilitary aspect of

2457
01:59:24,360 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 1: the Civil War. It's gruesome.

2458
01:59:28,840 --> 01:59:33,840
Speaker 4: Well, you know, bloody Bill he earned that appellation. I

2459
01:59:33,880 --> 01:59:37,240
Speaker 4: mean he had scalps tied to his horse's bridle. I

2460
01:59:37,240 --> 01:59:41,000
Speaker 4: mean they scalped the soldiers that they killed, and the

2461
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:44,840
Speaker 4: hatred was so deep, yeah, I mean so deep. And

2462
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:46,720
Speaker 4: the things they were doing to one I mean one

2463
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 4: of the things that led to Jesse joining the up

2464
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:52,320
Speaker 4: with the Quantrille or Bloody Bill was. You know, the

2465
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:55,600
Speaker 4: federal militia came to the home of his stepfather and

2466
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:59,400
Speaker 4: mother and they whipped him trying to get information where

2467
01:59:59,440 --> 02:00:03,040
Speaker 4: Frank was. And then they strung up his stepfather, doctor

2468
02:00:03,080 --> 02:00:06,560
Speaker 4: Reuben Samuel. Some people think that it actually caused brain damage.

2469
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:08,520
Speaker 4: They strung him up, they didn't kill him, and that

2470
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:10,920
Speaker 4: you know, it was so painful that the stepfather actually

2471
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,480
Speaker 4: did tell him where Frank and the other bushwhackers were.

2472
02:00:13,640 --> 02:00:17,400
Speaker 4: But I mean to see that as a teenager, you know,

2473
02:00:17,480 --> 02:00:20,760
Speaker 4: and then the things he experienced as a teenager in

2474
02:00:20,880 --> 02:00:23,560
Speaker 4: battle and to see his friends killed, to kill people,

2475
02:00:23,680 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 4: I mean he was indoctrinated to this violence sure at

2476
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 4: just the right age to become a way of life.

2477
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Mm hm. Ron Hansen, yes, yeah, uh. You know what

2478
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:42,840
Speaker 1: he says in his book that I don't know if

2479
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:44,280
Speaker 1: it's true, mate, any time, if it's true or not.

2480
02:00:44,400 --> 02:00:48,320
Speaker 1: I asked, I've asked a lot of people this, okay.

2481
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:53,240
Speaker 1: So uh. His book is the assassination of Jesse James

2482
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:58,600
Speaker 1: by the coward Robert Ford. So a guy Robert Ford

2483
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:02,840
Speaker 1: was unassassinated. Yes, so Robert Ford kills Jesse James and

2484
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:05,480
Speaker 1: then a guy comes to kill Robert Ford, Ed Kelly

2485
02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:09,280
Speaker 1: and Robert Hanton in his book. In Hanson's book, he

2486
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:13,000
Speaker 1: says that that the guy that kills Robert Ford has

2487
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 1: a coach gun. Not only is the coach gun Loda

2488
02:01:16,160 --> 02:01:19,760
Speaker 1: was shot, but he takes a bunch of pipe filings.

2489
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 1: He explains that he takes little sections of pipe and

2490
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:28,480
Speaker 1: takes a cold chisel and starts knocking off pipe fragments

2491
02:01:28,560 --> 02:01:32,600
Speaker 1: and uses a funnel to fill the barrels full of

2492
02:01:32,640 --> 02:01:38,240
Speaker 1: pipe fragments. And you hear different accounts Robert Ford gets

2493
02:01:38,240 --> 02:01:40,240
Speaker 1: cut in the half near the neck or gets cut

2494
02:01:40,280 --> 02:01:42,680
Speaker 1: in half near the waist? Is that true?

2495
02:01:43,040 --> 02:01:47,000
Speaker 4: So the pipe filing story, I just looked at the

2496
02:01:47,080 --> 02:01:50,240
Speaker 4: reports from Creed, Colorado up that we're published in the

2497
02:01:50,280 --> 02:01:55,240
Speaker 4: papers in eighteen ninety two, and I've seen no mentions

2498
02:01:55,280 --> 02:01:56,160
Speaker 4: of the pipe filings.

2499
02:01:56,400 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 1: But so Royan Hansen maybe made that up.

2500
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:01,760
Speaker 4: Maybe yeah. And then but as far as the reports

2501
02:02:01,800 --> 02:02:06,920
Speaker 4: do say it like severed the juggler, it was in

2502
02:02:06,960 --> 02:02:10,160
Speaker 4: the neck area and just ripped it out. It said

2503
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 4: that you know Ed Kelly. It was kind of interesting

2504
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:17,520
Speaker 4: because Ed Kelly was kind of standing at the entrance

2505
02:02:17,720 --> 02:02:20,400
Speaker 4: to the bar and that he had a confederate or

2506
02:02:20,440 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 4: somebody that came up and handed him the shotgun. He

2507
02:02:22,920 --> 02:02:25,720
Speaker 4: didn't walk up with the shotgun in his hands. Someone

2508
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:28,280
Speaker 4: handed him the shotgun and then he raised it up

2509
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:30,920
Speaker 4: and he said hello, Bob, which is what Billy said.

2510
02:02:30,960 --> 02:02:34,160
Speaker 4: Billy said that you know too, and Bob turns around

2511
02:02:34,240 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 4: and he said it. Bob Ford started to go for

2512
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:39,760
Speaker 4: his vest or hip pocket, and just as he was

2513
02:02:39,800 --> 02:02:42,560
Speaker 4: reaching down that he let go with the shotgun. And

2514
02:02:42,600 --> 02:02:44,960
Speaker 4: it said, you know, it knocked Bob for it back

2515
02:02:45,000 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 4: and it said he rolled over on his side and

2516
02:02:47,960 --> 02:02:51,320
Speaker 4: died just like that with his hands still on his hill.

2517
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:53,720
Speaker 4: And there was apparently Ed Kelly walked up and there

2518
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:56,320
Speaker 4: was a gun a revolver there and Ed Kelly took

2519
02:02:56,360 --> 02:03:00,680
Speaker 4: the gun. But Ed Kelly ends up getting killed, you know, Oklahoma. Later,

2520
02:03:01,160 --> 02:03:05,560
Speaker 4: you know, he goes, he goes, he goes to prison.

2521
02:03:06,520 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 1: But all these he just killed for, just to be

2522
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 1: the guy that killed for I think.

2523
02:03:10,120 --> 02:03:12,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, Well, some people say he might have had

2524
02:03:12,280 --> 02:03:15,680
Speaker 4: some kind of connection, uh with Jesse. But here's the

2525
02:03:15,720 --> 02:03:19,000
Speaker 4: cool thing. Guess who showed up at the funeral Bob

2526
02:03:19,080 --> 02:03:24,000
Speaker 4: Ford and Creed Frank James. What yes, Frank James went

2527
02:03:24,080 --> 02:03:26,920
Speaker 4: to pay his respects to make sure I think that

2528
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:31,280
Speaker 4: was done. I mean, and I also think just to

2529
02:03:31,320 --> 02:03:33,360
Speaker 4: stand over him and say, you know, you killed my

2530
02:03:33,440 --> 02:03:37,480
Speaker 4: brother and respects. Yeah, not to pay his respects, no,

2531
02:03:37,760 --> 02:03:40,000
Speaker 4: but yeah, he made the trip from Missouri to Creed.

2532
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,200
Speaker 4: But anyway, uh, yeah, Ed Kelly is killed. Well, you know,

2533
02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:46,480
Speaker 4: these people, all these people write a letter to get

2534
02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:49,320
Speaker 4: him released from prison. A few years later, and he's released,

2535
02:03:50,240 --> 02:03:52,720
Speaker 4: but then he's I can't remember the town in Oklahoma,

2536
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:55,280
Speaker 4: but he's kind of a belligerent character and he gets

2537
02:03:55,760 --> 02:03:58,040
Speaker 4: he gets in a feud with the local policeman and

2538
02:03:58,080 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 4: then they have a fight, you know, and they're grappling

2539
02:03:59,880 --> 02:04:02,280
Speaker 4: with one another, and and he's trying to get the

2540
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:04,640
Speaker 4: policeman's gun. Ed Kelly fired all his bullets and was

2541
02:04:04,680 --> 02:04:07,600
Speaker 4: out and actually hits himself in the leg. But they're

2542
02:04:07,640 --> 02:04:10,120
Speaker 4: still grappling and his policeman's trying to you know, get

2543
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:12,560
Speaker 4: his gun back, and so apparently a bystander went up

2544
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 4: and grabbed ed Kelly's arm so the policeman could get

2545
02:04:15,520 --> 02:04:18,120
Speaker 4: his gun, and then he shoots and kills ed Kelly.

2546
02:04:18,240 --> 02:04:20,440
Speaker 4: So that's the de mice of Kelly.

2547
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:24,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so did anybody then Avenge, No, I don't think so.

2548
02:04:24,800 --> 02:04:26,880
Speaker 4: I don't think so. I think that's where the story ends.

2549
02:04:27,920 --> 02:04:29,160
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that detail.

2550
02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:31,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know the Bob Ford it's it's a

2551
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,080
Speaker 4: it's a sad story. He thought he was going to

2552
02:04:34,120 --> 02:04:37,080
Speaker 4: be a hero for killing Jesse James, and you know,

2553
02:04:37,160 --> 02:04:40,040
Speaker 4: his brother Charlie commits suicide. And I think he commits

2554
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:42,440
Speaker 4: suicide because he's dealing with the effects of you know,

2555
02:04:42,480 --> 02:04:44,760
Speaker 4: having been a part of this, and you know, they

2556
02:04:44,760 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 4: have a stage play, they go around in their food

2557
02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 4: and you know, it's really a lot like the movie. Actually,

2558
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 4: I think the movie's great. I think Brad Pitts the yeah,

2559
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:57,720
Speaker 4: the best Jesse James ever. But no, it's it's uh yeah,

2560
02:04:57,800 --> 02:04:59,520
Speaker 4: he thought he was going to be wealthy and he

2561
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 4: was killing this famous aut law but uh, you know

2562
02:05:02,920 --> 02:05:04,680
Speaker 4: nobody thought that was cool.

2563
02:05:05,160 --> 02:05:05,840
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah.

2564
02:05:06,200 --> 02:05:09,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well here's the thing, Steve. I mean, this was

2565
02:05:09,800 --> 02:05:13,000
Speaker 4: like a political, a paid political assassination. You know, he

2566
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:16,320
Speaker 4: wasn't arrested. I mean, he hadn't been tried. Uh, you know,

2567
02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:19,720
Speaker 4: the governor was in cahoots and actually you know, organized

2568
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:23,560
Speaker 4: this assassination. It was a government funded assassination. I mean,

2569
02:05:23,960 --> 02:05:27,600
Speaker 4: Billy Jesse has been convicted of no robbery whatsoever.

2570
02:05:27,880 --> 02:05:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.

2571
02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:32,720
Speaker 4: And then you know Jesse had always said and Frank says,

2572
02:05:32,880 --> 02:05:36,040
Speaker 4: all we want is a fair trial or whatever, and uh.

2573
02:05:36,360 --> 02:05:38,920
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, but those guys are cold blood well they were.

2574
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:43,080
Speaker 4: But here's my point. So Frank James, because you know,

2575
02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:45,600
Speaker 4: he sees the writing on the wall, you know, he

2576
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:47,880
Speaker 4: thinks who's gonna come after me? He says, I could

2577
02:05:47,880 --> 02:05:50,000
Speaker 4: be out chopping wood and somebody's gonna shoot me or whatever.

2578
02:05:50,240 --> 02:05:55,520
Speaker 4: So he arranges this surrender to the governor. And Frank

2579
02:05:55,560 --> 02:05:59,800
Speaker 4: has tried twice for a crime and muscle shoals out

2580
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:02,160
Speaker 4: of and also for the gallop and galloped and for

2581
02:06:02,200 --> 02:06:04,280
Speaker 4: the crime of a trained robber or a man was

2582
02:06:04,360 --> 02:06:08,960
Speaker 4: murdered near Winston, Missouri, and he's acquitted in both things.

2583
02:06:09,320 --> 02:06:11,360
Speaker 4: He never committed a crime. For the rest of his life.

2584
02:06:11,360 --> 02:06:13,400
Speaker 4: He actually did exactly what he was going to say.

2585
02:06:13,640 --> 02:06:15,520
Speaker 4: You know, all I want is a fair trial. He

2586
02:06:15,600 --> 02:06:19,160
Speaker 4: got it, and he was a perfect citizen, you know.

2587
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:21,760
Speaker 4: And this is the other bizarre thing about Frank and Jesse.

2588
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:24,200
Speaker 4: You know a lot of people think of as like

2589
02:06:24,240 --> 02:06:27,280
Speaker 4: cycle pass. Like you said, they're murderers or whatever. Man

2590
02:06:27,440 --> 02:06:30,560
Speaker 4: their wives after they were dead, both of them said

2591
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 4: that was the best husband you could ever have. I mean,

2592
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:35,400
Speaker 4: they swore they were just the most gentle, the best

2593
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:40,000
Speaker 4: husband that you could ever have. About Frank and Jesse, well,

2594
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:42,760
Speaker 4: that's right. Well, you know, here's what I think about it.

2595
02:06:43,320 --> 02:06:45,520
Speaker 4: Have you read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle?

2596
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 1: Familiar with it?

2597
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:50,920
Speaker 4: Okay? Well, Chris Kyle writes about how the war in

2598
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:54,640
Speaker 4: the Middle East he was a sniper, and how it

2599
02:06:54,680 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 4: can numb you to the violence and the killing. And

2600
02:06:57,440 --> 02:07:00,240
Speaker 4: there's one point in here where he talks about at

2601
02:07:00,280 --> 02:07:03,560
Speaker 4: a distance, he shoots this enemy on a motorcycle and

2602
02:07:03,560 --> 02:07:06,400
Speaker 4: there's a guy with him, a spotter, and the guy

2603
02:07:06,440 --> 02:07:09,040
Speaker 4: falls off his motorcycle. Kind of funny, and they're laughing

2604
02:07:09,120 --> 02:07:12,000
Speaker 4: about it, you know, they're laughing about killing this guy. Yeah,

2605
02:07:12,240 --> 02:07:14,400
Speaker 4: he's become numb. You know, he's over there seeing us,

2606
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:16,640
Speaker 4: he's killing people. And I think that's what the Civil

2607
02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 4: War did to Frank and Jesse. They did so much

2608
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:22,760
Speaker 4: killing that they were just numb to the violence. And

2609
02:07:22,880 --> 02:07:24,880
Speaker 4: yet they could still you know, Jesse had two children.

2610
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 4: He could be a loving father, but if you threaten

2611
02:07:27,400 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 4: me or you get in my way, he had no

2612
02:07:29,440 --> 02:07:31,720
Speaker 4: hesitation about killing you. I mean, it meant nothing to

2613
02:07:31,800 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 4: him to kill somebody. So it's this weird dichotomy. You know,

2614
02:07:34,720 --> 02:07:37,160
Speaker 4: you can be a family man, but yet you can

2615
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:39,839
Speaker 4: kill at the you know, the flip of a switch.

2616
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like those understandings though. I mean, it's just

2617
02:07:44,520 --> 02:07:51,440
Speaker 1: like the complexities of people's motivations. We get into that

2618
02:07:51,480 --> 02:07:55,000
Speaker 1: affair bit and talk about these like these, like I

2619
02:07:55,040 --> 02:07:56,320
Speaker 1: keep talking with his hide hunter thing.

2620
02:07:56,600 --> 02:07:57,919
Speaker 4: Sure, just how most.

2621
02:07:57,680 --> 02:08:02,040
Speaker 1: People have put these guys these like they're just doing

2622
02:08:02,080 --> 02:08:05,200
Speaker 1: it for the killing buffalo, for the purpose of denying

2623
02:08:05,280 --> 02:08:07,000
Speaker 1: the future of the animals. Do you know what I mean?

2624
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:09,000
Speaker 1: When it was like a much more complex picture of

2625
02:08:10,080 --> 02:08:12,760
Speaker 1: civil war economics? Right now?

2626
02:08:12,800 --> 02:08:13,680
Speaker 4: Is that an audiobook?

2627
02:08:13,760 --> 02:08:14,200
Speaker 1: Or it is?

2628
02:08:14,240 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 4: Okay? And when's that coming out?

2629
02:08:15,960 --> 02:08:16,200
Speaker 7: Oh?

2630
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:19,120
Speaker 1: Cool, and go listen right now wherever you gets your

2631
02:08:19,120 --> 02:08:22,440
Speaker 1: audio books, you know? Okay, Well, tell me some banjo jokes.

2632
02:08:22,440 --> 02:08:24,360
Speaker 1: Grab that banjo on top o. You said you know

2633
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:26,560
Speaker 1: more banjo jokes.

2634
02:08:26,600 --> 02:08:29,720
Speaker 4: So what do you call a pretty gal on a

2635
02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:34,360
Speaker 4: banjo player's arm?

2636
02:08:34,480 --> 02:08:35,919
Speaker 1: I got enough tattoo?

2637
02:08:39,880 --> 02:08:42,080
Speaker 4: What do you what do you say to a banjo

2638
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 4: player in a three piece suit, Well, the defendant, please ride.

2639
02:08:49,280 --> 02:08:51,480
Speaker 4: Those are really old jokes. So I'm glad you never

2640
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:52,160
Speaker 4: heard of you before.

2641
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:53,280
Speaker 1: No, no, I haven't heard those.

2642
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:56,200
Speaker 4: So this is a five string banjo, A Vega fulk

2643
02:08:56,240 --> 02:08:58,400
Speaker 4: Ranger nineteen sixty three. The style I play is a

2644
02:08:58,520 --> 02:09:01,920
Speaker 4: historic style. It's called frail under clawhammer. But it's an

2645
02:09:01,960 --> 02:09:06,040
Speaker 4: African style. I mean, the banjo's an African instrument. It's

2646
02:09:06,040 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 4: called it was called a bonzar, a banja and uh. Anyway,

2647
02:09:11,360 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 4: the knowledge of the banjo was brought here by the enslaved,

2648
02:09:14,680 --> 02:09:18,160
Speaker 4: and you know it's it's they tried to take everything

2649
02:09:18,160 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 4: from their humanity, but once they got to the New world,

2650
02:09:21,320 --> 02:09:23,400
Speaker 4: they made the things from their culture and the banjo

2651
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,680
Speaker 4: was won. It was a gourd at the stick attached. Yeah,

2652
02:09:26,720 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 4: so with the banjo is a survivor of that really

2653
02:09:29,960 --> 02:09:32,520
Speaker 4: awful era. So what do you want to hear?

2654
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:36,360
Speaker 1: Anything gives?

2655
02:09:36,440 --> 02:09:39,680
Speaker 4: Okay, Well I got Old Dan Tucker. Let's see what

2656
02:09:39,680 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 4: Old Dan Tucker. I'll just do one verse, Old Dan

2657
02:09:54,680 --> 02:09:57,960
Speaker 4: Tucker down in town right to go and give all

2658
02:09:58,040 --> 02:10:00,440
Speaker 4: to go, gave a jump throwed Old Dan Australia Stop

2659
02:10:00,480 --> 02:10:03,920
Speaker 4: get out the way, Get out the way, Get out

2660
02:10:03,920 --> 02:10:06,120
Speaker 4: the way, Old Dan Tucker. He's too late. Get a

2661
02:10:06,240 --> 02:10:09,280
Speaker 4: supper and get out the way. Get out the way,

2662
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:10,320
Speaker 4: Get out.

2663
02:10:10,240 --> 02:10:11,440
Speaker 7: The way, Old Dan Tucker.

2664
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 4: He's too late to get a supper.

2665
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:17,960
Speaker 1: All right, there you go. Is another one that was

2666
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:22,400
Speaker 1: so short, so short, shorties.

2667
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 7: Okay, all right, get out the way. Different.

2668
02:10:39,760 --> 02:10:44,040
Speaker 4: So yeah, I heard some turkey straw. Yeah, Turkey and

2669
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:48,040
Speaker 4: the Strong, Turkey and ahead Bullfrog as his mother in

2670
02:10:48,080 --> 02:10:50,200
Speaker 4: law play a little too called Turkey in the Strong.

2671
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:54,240
Speaker 1: Well, that is a different song. Here's what I'm sorry.

2672
02:10:54,240 --> 02:10:56,680
Speaker 1: Here's what I thought you meant that. I thought I'm sorry.

2673
02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:58,600
Speaker 1: I thought you meant that I was asking for more

2674
02:10:58,680 --> 02:10:59,200
Speaker 1: Dan talking.

2675
02:10:59,240 --> 02:11:02,400
Speaker 4: Oh I just messed it up. But here's one you'll like.

2676
02:11:03,080 --> 02:11:10,080
Speaker 4: I'll just do one verse at see. If Jesse was

2677
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:14,360
Speaker 4: your friend on him, you could depend if it be true.

2678
02:11:14,600 --> 02:11:18,000
Speaker 4: I am sure he always wore the belt that would

2679
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:21,920
Speaker 4: equalize the wealth. He would rob the rich poor the poor.

2680
02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:26,360
Speaker 4: It was with his brother Frank he robbed the Gallatin Bank,

2681
02:11:27,000 --> 02:11:30,640
Speaker 4: carry the money from the town. It was at that

2682
02:11:30,840 --> 02:11:34,200
Speaker 4: very place they had a little chase before they shot

2683
02:11:34,320 --> 02:11:39,160
Speaker 4: Captain Sheets to the ground. Jesse had a wife, the

2684
02:11:39,200 --> 02:11:44,120
Speaker 4: pride of his life, his children, they were bread. But

2685
02:11:44,320 --> 02:11:48,360
Speaker 4: the dirty little coward that shot mister Howard has lei,

2686
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:50,120
Speaker 4: Jesse James and his grin.

2687
02:11:53,840 --> 02:11:57,600
Speaker 1: He's speaking about fort. Yes, dirty little coward and Jesse

2688
02:11:57,720 --> 02:11:58,760
Speaker 1: James was living under the.

2689
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:00,400
Speaker 4: Name mister Howard. Yeah.

2690
02:12:01,200 --> 02:12:05,040
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great man. Oh thanks, yeah, So your work

2691
02:12:05,080 --> 02:12:07,920
Speaker 1: as a historian, your and your interests in banjo playing

2692
02:12:08,160 --> 02:12:09,840
Speaker 1: are they are they like hand in hand or was

2693
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:10,640
Speaker 1: it different past?

2694
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:13,680
Speaker 4: No, it's hand in hand. But of course I always

2695
02:12:13,800 --> 02:12:17,080
Speaker 4: as a kid was fascinated by the banjo, and then

2696
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:20,160
Speaker 4: my first and I was started to take, you know,

2697
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 4: lessons and anyway, my first summer job at the Park

2698
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:26,520
Speaker 4: Service is at a place called bent sold Fort National

2699
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:28,640
Speaker 4: Historic Site near La Hunt, and they were big in

2700
02:12:28,680 --> 02:12:31,720
Speaker 4: the buffalo robe trade on the southern plains, and so

2701
02:12:31,760 --> 02:12:34,320
Speaker 4: I had my banjo there and I quickly learned that

2702
02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:37,839
Speaker 4: scrug style playing was not around in the eighteen forties,

2703
02:12:37,920 --> 02:12:41,000
Speaker 4: that's nineteen forties. So I started getting interested in the

2704
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:44,000
Speaker 4: historic styles of playing the banjo and the historic music.

2705
02:12:44,360 --> 02:12:47,880
Speaker 4: And even today when I'm doing research in diaries and journals,

2706
02:12:47,880 --> 02:12:50,800
Speaker 4: if there's a reference to a song or a tune,

2707
02:12:51,160 --> 02:12:52,640
Speaker 4: you know, I make note of that, and so I'll

2708
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 4: do it in my programs. I'll do programs the historic

2709
02:12:54,840 --> 02:12:55,320
Speaker 4: music of the.

2710
02:12:55,320 --> 02:12:57,880
Speaker 1: West, John Cook's Memoirs Full of songs.

2711
02:12:58,000 --> 02:13:00,480
Speaker 5: Oh it is, yeah, I do know that did the

2712
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,320
Speaker 5: Definitive Guide to the Santa Fe Wagons. You ought to

2713
02:13:03,360 --> 02:13:04,640
Speaker 5: do the history of the banjo.

2714
02:13:04,880 --> 02:13:09,080
Speaker 4: Well there's been some books on that actually, so somebody

2715
02:13:09,120 --> 02:13:11,240
Speaker 4: beat me to the punch on that one. But you know,

2716
02:13:11,280 --> 02:13:13,480
Speaker 4: to me, it helps bring history alive when you can

2717
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:17,320
Speaker 4: play the music, you know, the Jesse James or Billy

2718
02:13:17,360 --> 02:13:20,000
Speaker 4: the Kid. You know, Billy the Kid was a huge

2719
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:23,680
Speaker 4: fan of Turkey in the straw. But he was actually

2720
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:26,120
Speaker 4: but he didn't call it turkey in the straw. He

2721
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:28,080
Speaker 4: would tell the musicians he was a great dancer, went

2722
02:13:28,120 --> 02:13:30,080
Speaker 4: to the violets and fan Diego's. He would say to

2723
02:13:30,160 --> 02:13:33,120
Speaker 4: the musicians, don't forget the guyana, don't forget to play

2724
02:13:33,160 --> 02:13:36,240
Speaker 4: the g So in New Mexico, well, in the New World,

2725
02:13:36,920 --> 02:13:39,360
Speaker 4: the Spaniards did not have a term for the wild turkey,

2726
02:13:39,680 --> 02:13:42,240
Speaker 4: so they called it the guyana de la tierra, the

2727
02:13:42,320 --> 02:13:43,680
Speaker 4: chicken of the region, or the ear.

2728
02:13:43,920 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 1: What about the wahalloe, the wahllo te yeah, like in

2729
02:13:47,160 --> 02:13:48,640
Speaker 1: Sonora they call Turkey's.

2730
02:13:48,600 --> 02:13:51,000
Speaker 4: Oh really, I know, yeah, I didn't know o no.

2731
02:13:51,080 --> 02:13:53,880
Speaker 4: But anyway, in New Mexico they refer to the Walterra

2732
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,320
Speaker 4: as the Guyina. So when Billy the kids said, don't

2733
02:13:56,320 --> 02:14:01,600
Speaker 4: forget the Guyana, he meant turkey in the straw. Really yeah, yeah.

2734
02:14:01,320 --> 02:14:03,240
Speaker 1: I got one last question, okay, because you strike me

2735
02:14:03,280 --> 02:14:04,600
Speaker 1: as a felt that would be able to do this.

2736
02:14:05,520 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 1: What you big turkey hunter are? Do you do you

2737
02:14:08,080 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 1: mouth call? Natural, natural mouth call?

2738
02:14:10,360 --> 02:14:13,560
Speaker 4: No, I don't. Oh I have done natural mouth call sometimes, yes,

2739
02:14:13,640 --> 02:14:20,000
Speaker 4: but it's not very good. It's it's just I mean,

2740
02:14:20,040 --> 02:14:24,080
Speaker 4: I just throw that in usually I do think, yeah.

2741
02:14:24,000 --> 02:14:26,960
Speaker 1: Turkey hunting, they can tear it up.

2742
02:14:27,320 --> 02:14:30,120
Speaker 4: That's just in my you know tool box. Usually I've

2743
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:31,760
Speaker 4: got a I've got a wing bone call, I got

2744
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:34,000
Speaker 4: a slate call, then I got a giant box call.

2745
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:36,360
Speaker 4: So I got those three, and then sometimes I'll throw

2746
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:38,800
Speaker 4: in you know that other sound which isn't as good

2747
02:14:38,840 --> 02:14:41,160
Speaker 4: as those other things. But next time I have to

2748
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:43,120
Speaker 4: tell you the time I was attacked by a Cody Well,

2749
02:14:43,120 --> 02:14:46,720
Speaker 4: I was turkey hunting. Just rip it right now, Okay,

2750
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:49,680
Speaker 4: that's what I'm I grew up at a town of

2751
02:14:49,720 --> 02:14:51,680
Speaker 4: five hundred people, so most people know me. There's a

2752
02:14:51,720 --> 02:14:54,960
Speaker 4: guy that got attacked by the code, not an author. Yeah.

2753
02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:57,680
Speaker 4: So I'm set up with my back to a tree,

2754
02:14:57,960 --> 02:15:00,000
Speaker 4: right and I've got my and I hear these couple

2755
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:01,920
Speaker 4: full of gobblers really far away. So I got this

2756
02:15:02,120 --> 02:15:04,160
Speaker 4: box call and I'm holding it up here and I'm

2757
02:15:04,160 --> 02:15:06,640
Speaker 4: trying to, you know, get this sound to him. And

2758
02:15:06,880 --> 02:15:09,000
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I see like this patch of

2759
02:15:09,080 --> 02:15:12,240
Speaker 4: fur I just kind of appears here. And then I

2760
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:15,200
Speaker 4: hear this this pain on my arm, and then I

2761
02:15:15,240 --> 02:15:18,680
Speaker 4: see bounding away this coyote just so it actually it

2762
02:15:18,800 --> 02:15:21,080
Speaker 4: saw that movement. Yeah, and I had I had a

2763
02:15:21,080 --> 02:15:23,040
Speaker 4: gobbler decoy out there too, so I guess he thought

2764
02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:25,560
Speaker 4: there were a bunch of turkeys. So he bites down

2765
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:28,560
Speaker 4: on here, then he bounds away. I didn't really think

2766
02:15:28,640 --> 02:15:30,880
Speaker 4: much of it because the pain went away quickly. And

2767
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:32,880
Speaker 4: so a few minutes later, the gobbler comes in and

2768
02:15:32,920 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 4: I shoot my gobbler. Oh yeah. So and then I

2769
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:37,520
Speaker 4: get home, I get where I was seen with by

2770
02:15:37,720 --> 02:15:40,320
Speaker 4: with By at my parents house, and I take off

2771
02:15:40,360 --> 02:15:43,200
Speaker 4: my wool shirt and there's blood and I said, oh, well,

2772
02:15:43,240 --> 02:15:45,000
Speaker 4: you know, I didn't know it was that that bad

2773
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:47,280
Speaker 4: or whatever. And my mom says, you better call your

2774
02:15:47,320 --> 02:15:49,640
Speaker 4: doctor or whatever. So I called the doctor and he says,

2775
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:51,720
Speaker 4: you got to get a Raby shot. And I said, well,

2776
02:15:51,720 --> 02:15:54,400
Speaker 4: the kyudi looked pretty healthy. Didn't look like it. You know,

2777
02:15:54,400 --> 02:15:55,720
Speaker 4: I didn't want to get a Raby shot.

2778
02:15:55,800 --> 02:15:55,960
Speaker 8: You know.

2779
02:15:56,360 --> 02:15:58,800
Speaker 4: He says, Mark, there's no cure. You know, either you

2780
02:15:58,840 --> 02:16:00,760
Speaker 4: get it. I mean, who knows? So okay, I go

2781
02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:03,480
Speaker 4: to the I go to the emergency room in Liberty, Missouri,

2782
02:16:04,080 --> 02:16:06,720
Speaker 4: and they start the Raby shop process. You'll go around

2783
02:16:06,760 --> 02:16:08,760
Speaker 4: the wound with all these different things. And I'm talking

2784
02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:11,200
Speaker 4: to the emergency room doctor and I'm and he's tell

2785
02:16:11,280 --> 02:16:12,720
Speaker 4: you know, he asked me, well, how does happen? And

2786
02:16:12,800 --> 02:16:14,080
Speaker 4: then what do you do for a living? I'm a

2787
02:16:14,160 --> 02:16:17,080
Speaker 4: history and blah blah blah. And he goes, you sure

2788
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:21,960
Speaker 4: lead an interesting life. You're an emergency room doctor. You've

2789
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:24,800
Speaker 4: got to have better stories than I do. But anyway,

2790
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:26,800
Speaker 4: that's my story. I got attacked by a coyote. And

2791
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:28,920
Speaker 4: I tell people, I said, you know, I'm a pretty

2792
02:16:28,960 --> 02:16:30,640
Speaker 4: good turkey caller. I fooled a coyote.

2793
02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sure, man, Yeah, you got a wedding ring on. Yes,

2794
02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:34,520
Speaker 1: how long you been married?

2795
02:16:34,560 --> 02:16:38,520
Speaker 4: I've been married since uh since the early nineteen eighties.

2796
02:16:38,920 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what year, but anyway, yes, good run.

2797
02:16:42,800 --> 02:16:43,039
Speaker 1: I know.

2798
02:16:43,080 --> 02:16:45,320
Speaker 4: I'm sorry that hopefully my watch not listing there.

2799
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:47,240
Speaker 1: What's the secret to a big, long marriage like that?

2800
02:16:48,120 --> 02:16:48,320
Speaker 7: You know?

2801
02:16:48,760 --> 02:16:51,840
Speaker 4: Uh, we my wife and I share a lot of interest.

2802
02:16:51,920 --> 02:16:56,240
Speaker 4: She's a museum curator. She very interested in the history

2803
02:16:56,360 --> 02:16:59,720
Speaker 4: in the past, and we love visiting historic sites together.

2804
02:17:00,720 --> 02:17:02,920
Speaker 4: I don't know that my children enjoyed that as much

2805
02:17:03,000 --> 02:17:05,640
Speaker 4: as my wife and I did, but we took them too,

2806
02:17:05,840 --> 02:17:07,640
Speaker 4: just like my parents took me. But you know, it's

2807
02:17:07,680 --> 02:17:10,720
Speaker 4: really kind of a common shared interest in the past,

2808
02:17:10,840 --> 02:17:14,800
Speaker 4: and we find artifacts fascinating and the stories of real

2809
02:17:14,840 --> 02:17:16,520
Speaker 4: people in the past, and we even find her own

2810
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 4: family histories interesting. She's really big into her own genealogy

2811
02:17:20,520 --> 02:17:23,800
Speaker 4: and her family made a real mark in ute past.

2812
02:17:23,879 --> 02:17:26,520
Speaker 4: Colorado have been there for decades and decades.

2813
02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:32,760
Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner's brand speak any new book, Wider Dot

2814
02:17:32,760 --> 02:17:35,320
Speaker 1: holl Day and a Reckoning and Tombstone, Brothers of the

2815
02:17:35,360 --> 02:17:37,320
Speaker 1: Gun is what it's called. Got a lot of other books.

2816
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:41,000
Speaker 1: Fantastic storyteller. Thanks for coming on.

2817
02:17:41,000 --> 02:17:42,280
Speaker 4: Man Hey Thank you for having me.

2818
02:17:42,640 --> 02:17:43,680
Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate it.

2819
02:17:43,680 --> 02:18:05,120
Speaker 4: Thanks