WEBVTT - #307 Jason Flom with John Jerome White 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.960 In the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.280 a seventy four year old woman was asleep in her 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.840 den when she awoke to find a black man had 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.160 broken in through the window by the light of her television. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:19.880 He brutalized and raped her for over an hour after 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.400 stealing seventy dollars. The assailant pulled the telephone court out 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.880 of the wall and fled through the back door. When 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.200 the victim finally was able to contact the police, she 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.240 was taken to the hospital, but in her bloodied state, 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:37.000 they decided against performing a rape kit. However, other biological 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.479 evidence was collected from the scene. The victim helped that 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.360 Georgia Bureau of Investigation develop a composite sketche and immediately 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.519 one of the investigators said that it looked like a 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.080 young man named John Jerome White, who was a person 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.720 of interest in a string of burglaries. They arrested John 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.160 and collected physical samples from him, as well as his 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.400 driver's license. Even though none of the physical evidence was 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.560 a match for John, the victim I to fight them 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.600 at first in a photo array and then again at 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.560 a live lineup, and after all that, how could anyone 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:11.679 deny her gut wrench in courtroom identification? So they didn't. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:30.440 This is wrawful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction today. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.560 We have a unique story, but not rare, and it's 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.479 just as tragic every time something like this happens when 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.440 a black man is misidentified by a white victim. So 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.840 there's this double victimization that happens. And it was much 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.399 easier for these things to happen before the dawn of 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.720 DNA testing. Not that they don't still happen today, because 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.640 they do. But here to discuss the matter. As the 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.680 former executive director of the Georgia Andasis Project, she's now 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.560 with the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit. So Amy Maxwell 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.200 without two, thank you for joining us here again on 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:04.120 wrongful conviction. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:05.560 Thank you for having me. 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.400 And now the man she represented, mister John Jerome White. 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.840 You know, I'm sorry for the reason why you're here 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.680 joining us today, but we are really honored to have you. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:17.040 Thank you. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.440 You're very welcome. So John, as we like to do here, 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.440 you know, it's sort of almost a tradition. Now, we'd 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.400 like to spend some time getting to know you a 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.760 bit like our audience get to know you a bit, 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.280 so can you tell us a little bit about what 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.880 your life was like prior to all this insanity. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:32.480 Uh. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.200 Well, I'm from the small what we like to call 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.520 it a railroad town, uh and matt Chester, Georgia. That's 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.160 in South Georgia. I'm the only boy, six girls. I 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.480 was raised by my grandmother, just a love to do 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.320 things for my grandmother, you know, cutwood and working in 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.960 guardens and things of that nature. You know. Growed up 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.160 and got a chance to experience you know, what we 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.959 like to call Crosstown as you know, that city of Manchester, 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.160 you know. And I kind of got away from my grandmama, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.080 you know, hold on it, you know, making sure I 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.960 was doing the right thing and thing. And during the 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:14.120 time all this occurred, you know, I had started to 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.960 do little mount of burgers and things of that nature 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.520 here around Manchauter convenience stores and merchant stores like that. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:23.880 I were going in the wrong direction. They were going 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.440 totally against the way I was brought up. You know. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.560 I all happened to me, you know, and the way 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.800 things happen, I feel like it regard's way of putting 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:33.760 that putting that roadblock in my path. 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.520 Well, that sounds like one way of taking responsibility for 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.320 the actual wrong that you've admitted to doing in the past. 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.520 And I suppose thinking of your wrongful conviction like that 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.640 is a way to make peace with it. But I mean, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.200 sometimes on this show we speak with folks that are 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.840 pulled completely out of obscurity to be tried for a 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.280 crime that had absolutely nothing to do with But in 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.720 your case, and this doesn't make it right by any means, 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.720 but you were known the entity the police because of 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.000 those burglaries down in Manchester. But the crime in question 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.360 wasn't burglary. It was rape. And you had never exhibited 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.160 any sort of violence and certainly no sexual violence before. 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.720 So it's really a hell of a label to get 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:14.360 saddled with. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.960 Yeah, I couldn't believe it. You know, I always been 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:19.919 the type that you know, I respected women. You know, 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.880 I was raided by my grandmother, you know, all my 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.880 live that you know, that's all I've been around, you know, women, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.240 And it was kind of hard to believe that, you know, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.159 I would be in charge with, you know, the whole 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:30.719 type crime. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.640 Nevertheless, the burglaries had you on the radar of the 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.840 local police when this terrible crime occurred, and it was 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.839 in the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.640 when a man broke into the Manchester, Georgia home of 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.080 a seventy four year old woman. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.400 Well, what we know is that she was in the den. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.159 She was asleep on her couch, and she had her 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.719 sheets on the couch, and she did have the light 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.400 on in the kitchen, and she had her television on, 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.119 so that was the only available to her. She also 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.920 wore prescription glasses and she didn't have her glasses on 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.080 and someone broke in through a window in the den. 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.400 He attacked her, He raped her, He brutalized her for 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.839 over an hour. Then he ripped out the telephone cords 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.560 out of the wall and went out the back door. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.719 He also stole seventy dollars in cash from her purse. Now, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.880 she eventually called the cops and was taken to the hospital. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.680 But do I have this right that no rape kit 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:30.560 was collected. 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.240 No rape kit was collected, They said because she was 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.760 so damaged during the rape, The rape was so brutal 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.080 and there was just so much blood. They made a 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:49.359 determination that they couldn't get any viable evidence. And you know, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.760 you got to remember back then they were only able 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.000 to do blood typing, So I think that their thought 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.440 process may have been, there's so much of her blood, 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.760 his blood type is going to just get all mixed 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.280 up in there. They may also have not wanted to 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.080 got to remember, this is a small town, right They 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.640 might have been concerned that she was already so traumatized 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.920 that they didn't want to do any more of an examination. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.320 You know, she was seventy four years old, and I 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.240 can't even imagine how how she was presenting to the doctors. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.880 Obviously they should have done a sexual assault kit. They 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.440 certainly would today, but they did not. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.159 And since there was no rape kit, there's no seminal evidence. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.200 But there was other blood and biological evidence at the scene, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.760 which we'll get into in a bit. But in nineteen 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.400 seventy nine, as Amy mentioned, all we had was serology, 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:49.120 which had its own limitations. DNA testing, of course, was 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.680 not available yet, and I can't imagine collecting a rape 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.040 kit would have been an easy thing to do with 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.240 this poor seventy four year old woman in the state 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.479 that she was in. But the fact is she did 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.440 somehow survive. She must have been some tough lady. So 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.400 what happened next in this investigation. 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:08.919 Well, I should point out that this is such a 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.640 small town that their local police didn't do the investigation. 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.680 They brought in the state police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.559 And when they were collecting evidence, they collected the bed 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.560 sheet that was on the couch, and the bed sheet 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:27.160 had hairs. Now, I will say that at trial they 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.800 only thought there was one hair. Turned out there were 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:37.120 several hairs on that bed sheet, and they preserved that. Now, 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.160 I will say that at trial, the hares were discussed, 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.000 to use the parlance at the time, they were negroid hares, 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.080 and that's pretty much all they could say about them. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:53.400 They did a microscopic examination of them, and they said 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.680 that they looked almost exactly alike, that they were almost 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.720 positive that they were from the same person. Of course, 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.360 what that is is a human eye is looking at 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:08.680 two hairs and their pubic hair, so they're very small hairs, right, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.240 and saying, oh, yeah, they look alike, you know, And 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.320 back then that was good evidence, right, Not so much. 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.960 Now, yeah, definitely not. We did a whole episode by 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.160 the way of a wrongful conviction junk science that Josh 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.240 Duben hosted about hair microscopy, and we're going to link 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.440 to it in the episode Bio. But to think that 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.560 someone could compare hairs from a suspect and a crime 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.880 scene just by looking and match them to the exclusion 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.760 by the way of all other potential suspects everybody else, 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.760 all other people on the whole planet, is absolutely bonkers. Now, 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.480 remember they used to do that all the damn time. Now, 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.120 they mentioned that these hairs were from a black man, 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.200 as the victim had already told them, But what about 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.080 this piece of skin that I read about. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.840 Yes, so apparently when the man came in through the window, 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.680 he cut himself on his hand, and there was literally 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.880 like a triangular piece of his palm that was also 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:10.840 recovered from the scene. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.680 And it's unclear whether or not they did seriological testing 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.680 on that either. But we're going to come back to 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.640 the piece of skin in a bit. But at this 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:24.400 point they moved on to relying on cross racial identification. Now, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.040 study after study has shown these are studies which they 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.520 used a control group that has not seen the crime, 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.480 that that control group tends to be more accurate than 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:43.800 victims or witnesses. So get this. Cross racial identification has 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:50.280 been proven to be less accurate than guessing. So if 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.720 you actually didn't even witness the crime and were shown 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.440 a lineup, you'd have a better chance of picking the 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.640 person just by guessing than someone who did. Mister crime. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.200 It's an amazing thing, but it's true. Look it up. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:04.000 I encourage you. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.160 So they do a composite sketch of her attacker that 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.080 she saw in the dark, the only light from the 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.840 kitchen and the television while she's being traumatized. Right, So 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.960 she does do a composite sketch, and there is a 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.440 GBI agent who was part of the investigation. He says, hey, 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.760 that looks a lot like John White. And then everything, 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.400 of course, is often running at that point. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.680 So John, this wasn't a big town. So I'm sure 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.440 word traveled fast at that point. Had you heard about 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:36.199 what had happened? 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.000 We heard that, you know, this particular lady had got right. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.040 You know, I didn't think much of it. I really didn't, 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.880 you know. And when all this occurred, they would suspect 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.360 me of doing those mount of burgers around town and 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.400 come to find out that they were looking for me. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.160 So I decided to just up and leave Manchester. You know, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.719 I was at the age nineteen then, and I went 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.319 to a little small town and the cordial the way. 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.760 I had some people, you know, some cousins, and I 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:03.319 to stay in. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.120 So this crime happened on August eleventh, and they finally 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.440 caught up with you in Decre, Georgia and drove you 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.679 back to Meriweather County around September twenty first. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.360 On the ride back, they kept on asking me questions 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.679 about this here tick little crime involved in the seventy 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.960 something the year old lady and I had a venera 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.240 disease they called gongria, and you know, being a little 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.760 smart addict like I was, you know, I didn't answer 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.480 the question directly. You know. When they kept on asking me, 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.160 I said, well, if I did it, she got Gongarria. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.560 They took that, and I like to say they ran 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:46.199 with it. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.480 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.320 AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.120 a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.800 in the communities where we work and live. In light 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.680 of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance and 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.600 in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.800 The AIG Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:15.320 other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:23.760 When they got me back to a County, Jay, they 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.000 took the house and apples being a princes an apple 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.760 blood from me, and they took my driving license and 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.080 a social Security car and everything, and you know, they 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:34.719 locked me up. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.439 So they took those samples in order to run tests 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.560 on all the physical evidence that they had tried to 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.000 match the hair. Like we already mentioned, they probably did 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.680 some seriological testing with the patchers skin in your blood. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.359 We don't know that for sure, but that would seem 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.520 like it would have been the least thing they could 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.960 have done, and had any of it matched you, they 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.720 would have been shouting it from the rooftops. Now they 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.200 already had this composite sketch that they thought looked like you. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:00.840 You know, they had to jump with you a few 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.680 times away and you were being held for the burglaries. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.120 My grandma came to get me out the next day 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.720 after you know, they had brought me back to Milweather County. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.360 That's when she was in on that I was be 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.560 in charge with, you know, ray Rod reaggravated thaw and murdering. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.280 Curiously, she got that news before they had even taken 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.680 your driver's license to be viewed by the victim in 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:23.880 an alleged photo array. 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.520 I don't know if they took my driving license or 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.200 they took many pictures. They say they took a photo 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.760 array to her apartment, but I'm assuming they took my 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:34.800 driver license. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.000 We don't know much about it because, of course, you know, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.440 they didn't record a lot of information. They certainly didn't 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.640 record the photo of Ray and I don't believe we 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.800 ever found that photo array did with John. I don't 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.520 think we've ever seen those photos, so we don't know 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.480 who else was in the photo and how well they 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.280 matched either the composite or John. 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.280 Now, maybe this composite sketch looked enough like you that 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:04.079 your likeness was already imprinted in her mind, So photo 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.280 array or not, she had been primed to pick you 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.320 with that composite in mind. And it's also possible that 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.840 they only brought along your driver's license rather than a 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.840 number of other photos that favored your features. We don't know, 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.760 but now you had been chosen from this alleged photo array, 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:21.480 and things started going down how fast? 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.280 A few you know, weeks after they did all this year, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.480 they performed the line up. It was just us on 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.800 the room and me standing about ten feet from her, 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.600 along with a few other guys. And I couldn't believe, 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.320 you know, it was tick with it because they brought another 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.760 person up there of a place I had robbed, and 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.200 she didn't pick me out, but they bringed this old 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.840 lady nine, and she picked me out. Like I said, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.480 I'm quite sure they any take now one of no 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.760 other guy pictures that was in that line up to her, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.000 and I'm the only somebody she had seen recently on 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:53.520 a photo. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.480 Again, we're not sure what happened at that alleged photo lineup, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.960 as no documentation has ever been found. But I want 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.560 our audience to note that I witnessed misidentification is a 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.800 contributing factor in sixty nine percent of all known wrongful convictions, 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:13.680 and in this case, we have a cross racial misidentification. So, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:18.160 as I mentioned earlier, in study after study, cross racial 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:23.040 identifications are actually less accurate than guessing. But what about 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:27.640 the robbery victim also white, and that would have been 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.080 the correct identification. It's crazy, but okay, So cross racial 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.000 or not, she had already been primed to pick you 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.200 out of the lineup by seeing your driver's license, in 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.440 addition potentially to a composite sketch that may have favored 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:46.000 you or you know, pointed towards you. I mean, nineteen seventies, Georgia, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.480 you were already known to police, and then an old 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.000 white lady who had been brutally attacked identified you. I 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.560 hate to say it, but I think your fate was 0:15:55.720 --> 0:16:00.600 pretty much sealed. Did you have a court appointed or attorney? 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.600 At first they gave me a quarter point of attorney. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.480 But my mom and them, you know, they raised some 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.160 money and they hired you know, sound for Bishop. 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.720 And he's now a US representative, right. 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.080 He was a part of the legislature back you know, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.680 when I was going to trial. They took me to trial. 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.720 You know, they picked a jury which was mainly all white. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.040 They presented the evidence. The finger pressed they said they 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.960 collected at the scene of the crime. They said all 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.480 of them were sponged to the point that they couldn't 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.000 get no kind of identification off of them. They say, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.600 the blood test came back negative. I don't know what 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.040 they had tested. I don't know they tested the skin, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.240 I don't know what it was. But the crime left 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.360 investigator said the house table could be mine. I know 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:43.960 they brought up the pigmentation of a black person's hair 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.720 and they said it was all of it was similar. 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.560 Which really this technician was testifying that the hair was 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.800 a black person's and you were also black, which is 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.360 just not that probative. And what was it that they 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:56.680 tested your blood against. 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.600 I don't really remember what it was they tested with 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.880 the blood. I have to be honest with you. But also, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.080 you know we talked about the piece of skin, right 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.440 that there was the cut, and when they picked John 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.080 up five weeks later, he had a cut on his palm, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.720 and so that was another. 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.240 Piece, right. But the item that they tested for blood, 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.320 which the skin, was more than likely the item it 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.520 excluded him. But I suppose none of this matters when 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.760 you have the word of a seventy year old white 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.440 lady who was a victim of a brutal assault. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.280 They actually to peak me out in court why she 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:34.159 was only stand. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.920 The problem with eyewitness identification is it's unreliable, but it's 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:45.000 incredibly powerful in court. You have a now seventy five 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.040 year old woman who is so traumatized the er didn't 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.399 even want to do an examination of her. Get on 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.040 the stand and say that's the man that did that 0:17:56.200 --> 0:18:00.480 to me. You know, the jury at that point is 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.440 done right. If there's a few little things that they 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.840 can put together, like oh, that hair might be the 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.199 same or oh and he had a cut too, that 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:10.760 was enough. 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.840 I mean, how do you combat that even pointing out 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.439 that she wore glasses, that it was dark in there. 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.400 It's debatable whether that helps or hurts your client. When 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.280 you have an emotionally charged moment like that, how are 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.879 you going to try to contradict her the victim? 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:25.360 Right? 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.760 John, at that point, did you have any hope that 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.960 the jury might actually still get this right? 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.440 You know, me, knowing that I didn't do it, I 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.119 didn't have no doubt in my mind that I was 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.800 going home. I was that young and I was so 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.000 inexperienced that I thought I was going home. 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.760 Can you take us back to that awful moment when 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.200 they read the verdict that. 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:49.440 It broke down and started crying. You know, I will convicted. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:55.239 The rate robbery aggravated thought and two council burgery. And 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.399 they asked me, did I have anything to say. I 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.720 just said I didn't do it. When it took me 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:01.600 back to the holding, said I know, I broke down 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:20.520 and started crying. I was corresponding with a cousin of mind. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.639 You know. He just told me, you know, you know, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.080 God got his reasons for everything. You know what I'm saying. 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.040 And he said it was a reason behind it, you 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.679 know for me, you know, it was a reason behind 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.879 and I thought, I just thought that reason behind it. 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.679 You know, I just accepted it that God will and 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.240 I moved forward. I couldn't go through that time, all 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.520 that time that they gave me feeling some type of way, 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.800 and I just had to learn how to how to 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.880 survive inside the penitent I found what they called jail 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.560 house attorney, and we tried, you know, by filing ahabor 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.080 corpus against my lawyer that he didn't represent me, right. 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.800 We they requested, you know, from my transcript and all 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.959 that everything that will pertaining into my trial. But they, 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.920 you know, the kind of mayor whether they didn't send 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.320 me anything but a transcript. They said, didn't have nothing 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.760 else to send me and we buy ourselves assistant accounting, 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.840 and they denied that. So I pretty much lay down 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.040 on it from that point on. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.800 So at that time, it was much easier to be 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.320 granted parole, even with a sentence like yours, which was 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:29.000 life plus sixty years. And usually, let's face it, they're 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:30.879 not going to grant you parole without an admission of 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.800 guilt and a show of remorse, even if you didn't 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.440 commit the crime. That that's that's a detail, it gets 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.679 washed away, but it appears that they may have actually 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:41.840 believed in your innocence. 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.160 Yeah, after I want to say, eleven years, I came 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.240 up a parole. They told me, in order to make 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.879 parole that I would have to do some type of 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.760 sex offlinal program. And I told the lady that, you know, 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.480 I didn't do it. Must white. Unless you'd get in 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.560 some sex offenal program, you ain't gonna get out of jail. 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.479 So they sent me to Metro up here in Atlanta, Georgia, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.960 where they had the programs at and my mama came 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.040 up to see, Tay, go on, get in this program 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.159 if it gonna help you get out, even you had 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.600 to tell a lie, and they told me to cry 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.080 till you for getting into safe Defending program which you 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:21.080 had to describe what to play during the crime. And 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.680 so I told him, man, you know I can't do that. 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.440 I say, I can't imagine what took play doing it 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.479 said crime. You know I couldn't make that lie up. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.359 So I basically just just gave it up again, you know. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.560 And uh So one day I came in from work 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.320 and the warden called me to his office at me, 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:38.760