1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: a seventy four year old woman was asleep in her 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: den when she awoke to find a black man had 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: broken in through the window by the light of her television. 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: He brutalized and raped her for over an hour after 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: stealing seventy dollars. The assailant pulled the telephone court out 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of the wall and fled through the back door. When 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: the victim finally was able to contact the police, she 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital, but in her bloodied state, 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: they decided against performing a rape kit. However, other biological 11 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: evidence was collected from the scene. The victim helped that 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Georgia Bureau of Investigation develop a composite sketche and immediately 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: one of the investigators said that it looked like a 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: young man named John Jerome White, who was a person 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: of interest in a string of burglaries. They arrested John 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: and collected physical samples from him, as well as his 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: driver's license. Even though none of the physical evidence was 18 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: a match for John, the victim I to fight them 19 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: at first in a photo array and then again at 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: a live lineup, and after all that, how could anyone 21 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: deny her gut wrench in courtroom identification? So they didn't. 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: This is wrawful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction today. 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: We have a unique story, but not rare, and it's 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: just as tragic every time something like this happens when 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: a black man is misidentified by a white victim. So 26 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: there's this double victimization that happens. And it was much 27 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: easier for these things to happen before the dawn of 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: DNA testing. Not that they don't still happen today, because 29 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: they do. But here to discuss the matter. As the 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: former executive director of the Georgia Andasis Project, she's now 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: with the Fulton County Conviction Integrity Unit. So Amy Maxwell 32 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: without two, thank you for joining us here again on 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 35 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: And now the man she represented, mister John Jerome White. 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: You know, I'm sorry for the reason why you're here 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: joining us today, but we are really honored to have you. 38 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: Thank you. 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: You're very welcome. So John, as we like to do here, 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of almost a tradition. Now, we'd 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: like to spend some time getting to know you a 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: bit like our audience get to know you a bit, 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: so can you tell us a little bit about what 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: your life was like prior to all this insanity. 45 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: Uh. 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: Well, I'm from the small what we like to call 47 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: it a railroad town, uh and matt Chester, Georgia. That's 48 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 3: in South Georgia. I'm the only boy, six girls. I 49 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: was raised by my grandmother, just a love to do 50 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: things for my grandmother, you know, cutwood and working in 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 3: guardens and things of that nature. You know. Growed up 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: and got a chance to experience you know, what we 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 3: like to call Crosstown as you know, that city of Manchester, 54 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: you know. And I kind of got away from my grandmama, 55 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: you know, hold on it, you know, making sure I 56 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: was doing the right thing and thing. And during the 57 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: time all this occurred, you know, I had started to 58 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 3: do little mount of burgers and things of that nature 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: here around Manchauter convenience stores and merchant stores like that. 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: I were going in the wrong direction. They were going 61 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: totally against the way I was brought up. You know. 62 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: I all happened to me, you know, and the way 63 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: things happen, I feel like it regard's way of putting 64 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 3: that putting that roadblock in my path. 65 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: Well, that sounds like one way of taking responsibility for 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: the actual wrong that you've admitted to doing in the past. 67 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: And I suppose thinking of your wrongful conviction like that 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: is a way to make peace with it. But I mean, 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: sometimes on this show we speak with folks that are 70 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: pulled completely out of obscurity to be tried for a 71 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: crime that had absolutely nothing to do with But in 72 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: your case, and this doesn't make it right by any means, 73 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: but you were known the entity the police because of 74 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: those burglaries down in Manchester. But the crime in question 75 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: wasn't burglary. It was rape. And you had never exhibited 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: any sort of violence and certainly no sexual violence before. 77 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: So it's really a hell of a label to get 78 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: saddled with. 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't believe it. You know, I always been 80 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: the type that you know, I respected women. You know, 81 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: I was raided by my grandmother, you know, all my 82 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: live that you know, that's all I've been around, you know, women, 83 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: And it was kind of hard to believe that, you know, 84 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 3: I would be in charge with, you know, the whole 85 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: type crime. 86 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: Nevertheless, the burglaries had you on the radar of the 87 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: local police when this terrible crime occurred, and it was 88 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: in the early morning hours of August eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, 89 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: when a man broke into the Manchester, Georgia home of 90 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: a seventy four year old woman. 91 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: Well, what we know is that she was in the den. 92 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 2: She was asleep on her couch, and she had her 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: sheets on the couch, and she did have the light 94 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: on in the kitchen, and she had her television on, 95 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 2: so that was the only available to her. She also 96 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: wore prescription glasses and she didn't have her glasses on 97 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: and someone broke in through a window in the den. 98 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: He attacked her, He raped her, He brutalized her for 99 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: over an hour. Then he ripped out the telephone cords 100 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: out of the wall and went out the back door. 101 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: He also stole seventy dollars in cash from her purse. Now, 102 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: she eventually called the cops and was taken to the hospital. 103 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: But do I have this right that no rape kit 104 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: was collected. 105 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: No rape kit was collected, They said because she was 106 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: so damaged during the rape, The rape was so brutal 107 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: and there was just so much blood. They made a 108 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 2: determination that they couldn't get any viable evidence. And you know, 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: you got to remember back then they were only able 110 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: to do blood typing, So I think that their thought 111 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: process may have been, there's so much of her blood, 112 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: his blood type is going to just get all mixed 113 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 2: up in there. They may also have not wanted to 114 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: got to remember, this is a small town, right They 115 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: might have been concerned that she was already so traumatized 116 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: that they didn't want to do any more of an examination. 117 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: You know, she was seventy four years old, and I 118 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: can't even imagine how how she was presenting to the doctors. 119 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: Obviously they should have done a sexual assault kit. They 120 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: certainly would today, but they did not. 121 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: And since there was no rape kit, there's no seminal evidence. 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: But there was other blood and biological evidence at the scene, 123 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: which we'll get into in a bit. But in nineteen 124 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: seventy nine, as Amy mentioned, all we had was serology, 125 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: which had its own limitations. DNA testing, of course, was 126 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: not available yet, and I can't imagine collecting a rape 127 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: kit would have been an easy thing to do with 128 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: this poor seventy four year old woman in the state 129 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: that she was in. But the fact is she did 130 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: somehow survive. She must have been some tough lady. So 131 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: what happened next in this investigation. 132 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: Well, I should point out that this is such a 133 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: small town that their local police didn't do the investigation. 134 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: They brought in the state police, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 135 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,559 Speaker 2: And when they were collecting evidence, they collected the bed 136 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: sheet that was on the couch, and the bed sheet 137 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: had hairs. Now, I will say that at trial they 138 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: only thought there was one hair. Turned out there were 139 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: several hairs on that bed sheet, and they preserved that. Now, 140 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: I will say that at trial, the hares were discussed, 141 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: to use the parlance at the time, they were negroid hares, 142 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: and that's pretty much all they could say about them. 143 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: They did a microscopic examination of them, and they said 144 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: that they looked almost exactly alike, that they were almost 145 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: positive that they were from the same person. Of course, 146 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: what that is is a human eye is looking at 147 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: two hairs and their pubic hair, so they're very small hairs, right, 148 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: and saying, oh, yeah, they look alike, you know, And 149 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: back then that was good evidence, right, Not so much. 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, definitely not. We did a whole episode by 151 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: the way of a wrongful conviction junk science that Josh 152 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: Duben hosted about hair microscopy, and we're going to link 153 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: to it in the episode Bio. But to think that 154 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: someone could compare hairs from a suspect and a crime 155 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: scene just by looking and match them to the exclusion 156 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: by the way of all other potential suspects everybody else, 157 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: all other people on the whole planet, is absolutely bonkers. Now, 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: remember they used to do that all the damn time. Now, 159 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: they mentioned that these hairs were from a black man, 160 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: as the victim had already told them, But what about 161 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: this piece of skin that I read about. 162 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: Yes, so apparently when the man came in through the window, 163 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: he cut himself on his hand, and there was literally 164 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: like a triangular piece of his palm that was also 165 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: recovered from the scene. 166 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: And it's unclear whether or not they did seriological testing 167 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: on that either. But we're going to come back to 168 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: the piece of skin in a bit. But at this 169 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: point they moved on to relying on cross racial identification. Now, 170 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: study after study has shown these are studies which they 171 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: used a control group that has not seen the crime, 172 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: that that control group tends to be more accurate than 173 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: victims or witnesses. So get this. Cross racial identification has 174 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: been proven to be less accurate than guessing. So if 175 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: you actually didn't even witness the crime and were shown 176 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: a lineup, you'd have a better chance of picking the 177 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: person just by guessing than someone who did. Mister crime. 178 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: It's an amazing thing, but it's true. Look it up. 179 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: I encourage you. 180 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: So they do a composite sketch of her attacker that 181 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: she saw in the dark, the only light from the 182 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: kitchen and the television while she's being traumatized. Right, So 183 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: she does do a composite sketch, and there is a 184 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: GBI agent who was part of the investigation. He says, hey, 185 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: that looks a lot like John White. And then everything, 186 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: of course, is often running at that point. 187 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: So John, this wasn't a big town. So I'm sure 188 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: word traveled fast at that point. Had you heard about 189 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: what had happened? 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: We heard that, you know, this particular lady had got right. 191 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: You know, I didn't think much of it. I really didn't, 192 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: you know. And when all this occurred, they would suspect 193 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: me of doing those mount of burgers around town and 194 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: come to find out that they were looking for me. 195 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: So I decided to just up and leave Manchester. You know, 196 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 3: I was at the age nineteen then, and I went 197 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 3: to a little small town and the cordial the way. 198 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 3: I had some people, you know, some cousins, and I 199 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 3: to stay in. 200 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: So this crime happened on August eleventh, and they finally 201 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: caught up with you in Decre, Georgia and drove you 202 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: back to Meriweather County around September twenty first. 203 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: On the ride back, they kept on asking me questions 204 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 3: about this here tick little crime involved in the seventy 205 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 3: something the year old lady and I had a venera 206 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: disease they called gongria, and you know, being a little 207 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 3: smart addict like I was, you know, I didn't answer 208 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: the question directly. You know. When they kept on asking me, 209 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: I said, well, if I did it, she got Gongarria. 210 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: They took that, and I like to say they ran 211 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 3: with it. 212 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 213 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 214 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 215 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light 216 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance and 217 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform. 218 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: The AIG Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 219 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. 220 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: When they got me back to a County, Jay, they 221 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 3: took the house and apples being a princes an apple 222 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: blood from me, and they took my driving license and 223 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 3: a social Security car and everything, and you know, they 224 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 3: locked me up. 225 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: So they took those samples in order to run tests 226 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: on all the physical evidence that they had tried to 227 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: match the hair. Like we already mentioned, they probably did 228 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: some seriological testing with the patchers skin in your blood. 229 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,359 Speaker 1: We don't know that for sure, but that would seem 230 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: like it would have been the least thing they could 231 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: have done, and had any of it matched you, they 232 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: would have been shouting it from the rooftops. Now they 233 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: already had this composite sketch that they thought looked like you. 234 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: You know, they had to jump with you a few 235 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: times away and you were being held for the burglaries. 236 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: My grandma came to get me out the next day 237 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 3: after you know, they had brought me back to Milweather County. 238 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: That's when she was in on that I was be 239 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: in charge with, you know, ray Rod reaggravated thaw and murdering. 240 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Curiously, she got that news before they had even taken 241 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: your driver's license to be viewed by the victim in 242 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: an alleged photo array. 243 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: I don't know if they took my driving license or 244 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 3: they took many pictures. They say they took a photo 245 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: array to her apartment, but I'm assuming they took my 246 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: driver license. 247 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: We don't know much about it because, of course, you know, 248 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: they didn't record a lot of information. They certainly didn't 249 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: record the photo of Ray and I don't believe we 250 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: ever found that photo array did with John. I don't 251 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: think we've ever seen those photos, so we don't know 252 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: who else was in the photo and how well they 253 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: matched either the composite or John. 254 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: Now, maybe this composite sketch looked enough like you that 255 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: your likeness was already imprinted in her mind, So photo 256 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: array or not, she had been primed to pick you 257 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: with that composite in mind. And it's also possible that 258 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: they only brought along your driver's license rather than a 259 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: number of other photos that favored your features. We don't know, 260 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: but now you had been chosen from this alleged photo array, 261 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: and things started going down how fast? 262 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: A few you know, weeks after they did all this year, 263 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: they performed the line up. It was just us on 264 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: the room and me standing about ten feet from her, 265 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: along with a few other guys. And I couldn't believe, 266 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: you know, it was tick with it because they brought another 267 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: person up there of a place I had robbed, and 268 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: she didn't pick me out, but they bringed this old 269 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: lady nine, and she picked me out. Like I said, 270 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: I'm quite sure they any take now one of no 271 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: other guy pictures that was in that line up to her, 272 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: and I'm the only somebody she had seen recently on 273 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: a photo. 274 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: Again, we're not sure what happened at that alleged photo lineup, 275 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: as no documentation has ever been found. But I want 276 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: our audience to note that I witnessed misidentification is a 277 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: contributing factor in sixty nine percent of all known wrongful convictions, 278 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: and in this case, we have a cross racial misidentification. So, 279 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, in study after study, cross racial 280 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: identifications are actually less accurate than guessing. But what about 281 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: the robbery victim also white, and that would have been 282 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: the correct identification. It's crazy, but okay, So cross racial 283 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: or not, she had already been primed to pick you 284 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: out of the lineup by seeing your driver's license, in 285 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: addition potentially to a composite sketch that may have favored 286 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: you or you know, pointed towards you. I mean, nineteen seventies, Georgia, 287 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: you were already known to police, and then an old 288 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: white lady who had been brutally attacked identified you. I 289 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: hate to say it, but I think your fate was 290 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: pretty much sealed. Did you have a court appointed or attorney? 291 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: At first they gave me a quarter point of attorney. 292 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 3: But my mom and them, you know, they raised some 293 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: money and they hired you know, sound for Bishop. 294 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: And he's now a US representative, right. 295 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: He was a part of the legislature back you know, 296 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 3: when I was going to trial. They took me to trial. 297 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: You know, they picked a jury which was mainly all white. 298 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: They presented the evidence. The finger pressed they said they 299 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 3: collected at the scene of the crime. They said all 300 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 3: of them were sponged to the point that they couldn't 301 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: get no kind of identification off of them. They say, 302 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: the blood test came back negative. I don't know what 303 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: they had tested. I don't know they tested the skin, 304 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: I don't know what it was. But the crime left 305 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: investigator said the house table could be mine. I know 306 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: they brought up the pigmentation of a black person's hair 307 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: and they said it was all of it was similar. 308 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: Which really this technician was testifying that the hair was 309 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: a black person's and you were also black, which is 310 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: just not that probative. And what was it that they 311 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: tested your blood against. 312 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: I don't really remember what it was they tested with 313 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: the blood. I have to be honest with you. But also, 314 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: you know we talked about the piece of skin, right 315 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 2: that there was the cut, and when they picked John 316 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: up five weeks later, he had a cut on his palm, 317 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: and so that was another. 318 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: Piece, right. But the item that they tested for blood, 319 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: which the skin, was more than likely the item it 320 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: excluded him. But I suppose none of this matters when 321 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: you have the word of a seventy year old white 322 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: lady who was a victim of a brutal assault. 323 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: They actually to peak me out in court why she 324 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 3: was only stand. 325 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 2: The problem with eyewitness identification is it's unreliable, but it's 326 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: incredibly powerful in court. You have a now seventy five 327 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: year old woman who is so traumatized the er didn't 328 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: even want to do an examination of her. Get on 329 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: the stand and say that's the man that did that 330 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: to me. You know, the jury at that point is 331 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: done right. If there's a few little things that they 332 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: can put together, like oh, that hair might be the 333 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: same or oh and he had a cut too, that 334 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: was enough. 335 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you combat that even pointing out 336 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: that she wore glasses, that it was dark in there. 337 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: It's debatable whether that helps or hurts your client. When 338 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: you have an emotionally charged moment like that, how are 339 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: you going to try to contradict her the victim? 340 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 3: Right? 341 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: John, at that point, did you have any hope that 342 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: the jury might actually still get this right? 343 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 3: You know, me, knowing that I didn't do it, I 344 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 3: didn't have no doubt in my mind that I was 345 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: going home. I was that young and I was so 346 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: inexperienced that I thought I was going home. 347 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: Can you take us back to that awful moment when 348 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: they read the verdict that. 349 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 3: It broke down and started crying. You know, I will convicted. 350 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 3: The rate robbery aggravated thought and two council burgery. And 351 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 3: they asked me, did I have anything to say. I 352 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: just said I didn't do it. When it took me 353 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 3: back to the holding, said I know, I broke down 354 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 3: and started crying. I was corresponding with a cousin of mind. 355 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: You know. He just told me, you know, you know, 356 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 3: God got his reasons for everything. You know what I'm saying. 357 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: And he said it was a reason behind it, you 358 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 3: know for me, you know, it was a reason behind 359 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 3: and I thought, I just thought that reason behind it. 360 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 3: You know, I just accepted it that God will and 361 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 3: I moved forward. I couldn't go through that time, all 362 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: that time that they gave me feeling some type of way, 363 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: and I just had to learn how to how to 364 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 3: survive inside the penitent I found what they called jail 365 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 3: house attorney, and we tried, you know, by filing ahabor 366 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: corpus against my lawyer that he didn't represent me, right. 367 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 3: We they requested, you know, from my transcript and all 368 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 3: that everything that will pertaining into my trial. But they, 369 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: you know, the kind of mayor whether they didn't send 370 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: me anything but a transcript. They said, didn't have nothing 371 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: else to send me and we buy ourselves assistant accounting, 372 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: and they denied that. So I pretty much lay down 373 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: on it from that point on. 374 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: So at that time, it was much easier to be 375 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: granted parole, even with a sentence like yours, which was 376 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: life plus sixty years. And usually, let's face it, they're 377 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: not going to grant you parole without an admission of 378 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: guilt and a show of remorse, even if you didn't 379 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: commit the crime. That that's that's a detail, it gets 380 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: washed away, but it appears that they may have actually 381 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: believed in your innocence. 382 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, after I want to say, eleven years, I came 383 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 3: up a parole. They told me, in order to make 384 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 3: parole that I would have to do some type of 385 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: sex offlinal program. And I told the lady that, you know, 386 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: I didn't do it. Must white. Unless you'd get in 387 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: some sex offenal program, you ain't gonna get out of jail. 388 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 3: So they sent me to Metro up here in Atlanta, Georgia, 389 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: where they had the programs at and my mama came 390 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 3: up to see, Tay, go on, get in this program 391 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 3: if it gonna help you get out, even you had 392 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: to tell a lie, and they told me to cry 393 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: till you for getting into safe Defending program which you 394 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: had to describe what to play during the crime. And 395 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 3: so I told him, man, you know I can't do that. 396 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 3: I say, I can't imagine what took play doing it 397 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 3: said crime. You know I couldn't make that lie up. 398 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 3: So I basically just just gave it up again, you know. 399 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: And uh So one day I came in from work 400 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: and the warden called me to his office at me, 401 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: he ad me why I was at his institution, and 402 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 3: I told him that they had sent me there participate 403 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: in the safe Spherical program and that I couldn't, you know, 404 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 3: participlate in because I couldn't describe the crime. So he 405 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 3: sing on back to the dormitor and some strange things 406 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: occurred there, told me to pack my stuff up, that 407 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: I was going to hospital lie and Augusta, Georgia for 408 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: a year. Proud I had opposcopic survey then on my knee. 409 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 3: So the inmates that was coming in from work having 410 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: to notice a piece of paper that had all the 411 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: transfers on and everything. And he told me that, said John, 412 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 3: you wasn't going to Augusta Medical Hospital, Say you going 413 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: to constantly on halfway house. And it totally shocked me 414 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 3: that they're all finn to get out of prison. 415 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: Had the pro board cut you a brake or was 416 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: it the warden points of strings? 417 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: I don't know. 418 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: And no one told you. 419 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 3: Nobody told them. 420 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: Okay, that's weird. So you got paroled, I guess. And 421 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: now you were starting out on a tough road to 422 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: reacclimate into society. There are a lot of obstacles to 423 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: employment and getting IDs and things like that, and those 424 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: are some of the many reasons why recidivism rates can 425 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: be as high as they are in some places. Not 426 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: to mention that you turned to burglary in the past, 427 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: and so where and how did you start that journey? 428 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: When I first got out, I was up in the 429 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 3: Atlanta in the halfwhouse. I parode out down to a 430 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: room and house. I got tired of the room and 431 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 3: house and I moved to moved to Manchester. 432 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: Did you move back in with your mom or your grandma? 433 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 2: My mom? 434 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: My grandma had passed while I was incarcerated. 435 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: Sorry to hear that, but luckily you still had some family, 436 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: right Were your sisters around now? 437 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 3: Most of them had, they had married. They moved on 438 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: it was most of just me and my mom and 439 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: my dad was still living at the time, and my niece. 440 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: You know, John got the opportunity to come out on parole, 441 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: but he came out as a sex offender, right who 442 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: hires a sex offender? You know, it was a struggle 443 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: when he. 444 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: Was out on parole. So what did you do for work? 445 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: And I understand you eventually went back to prison. 446 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: When I was dining back down here, I was doing 447 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 3: odds and then work. And one day I was at 448 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: McDonald's and seeing this guy and he pulled his wallet 449 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: out and he had a lot of money in it, 450 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 3: and me and another guy follow him and robbing. The 451 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: guy got caught up some kind of way and he told, 452 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: you know what, that albumed And I turned myself in 453 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 3: again and I revoked my parole and sent me back. 454 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: I talked with the DA. He gave me ten years 455 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 3: ran into what I already had, and that he wouldn't 456 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: have no kind of negative recommendation towards if I was 457 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: to come up with a role again. 458 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: Well, I can't say a lot of people are going 459 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: to have a ton of sympathy for you on that situation. 460 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: But it's like you said, earlier about how you made 461 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: peace with your wrongful conviction. You kind of felt deserving 462 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: of it because of the wrong that you had done. 463 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: And I want to point out that in nabbing the 464 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: wrong guy for that ultra violent rape and robber all 465 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: those years ago, this did a really terrible disservice the 466 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: entire community, not least of which to the victim, because 467 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: the real perpetrator was still free. So now it's nineteen 468 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: ninety seven year back to serve out this new sentence 469 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: and your old one. And it's not until about four 470 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: years later when the amazing Amy Maxwell became the founding 471 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: executive director of Georgia AND's project. Can you run through 472 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: how you all came upon John's case? 473 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: The Georgia Ennison's Project started in two thousand and one. Obviously, 474 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 2: we got cases coming to us fairly quickly. But as 475 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: we were working on the cases, I started thinking, well, 476 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: what about all those people who don't know that we 477 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: could look at the cases? What about those people who've 478 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: not heard that we exist? So in two thousand and four, 479 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: first of all, we tried to go through the prison 480 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: hierarchy and try to get notices posted in prison, and 481 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: they wouldn't do that. So what we did is we 482 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: went through the Department of Corrections website and found everybody 483 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: who was in prison for rape and sent them a letter. 484 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: We sent about twelve hundred letters and we got about 485 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty, so we got about ten percent 486 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 2: return on our letter. And John was actually one of them. 487 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: I didn't I really didn't even know what to write, 488 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: but I wrote it won a week with soold, I mean, 489 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: I'm gonna respond. 490 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: We looked at his evidence and the hair evidence. They 491 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: only really talked about one hair that they compared, and 492 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: so we were under the impression from the crime lab 493 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: report and from the testimony that there was only the 494 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: one hair. But most importantly, we were trying to find 495 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: that piece of flesh. In fact, we called it the 496 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: piece of flesh case right, because it was such an 497 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: unusual piece of evidence. You know, this was a straight 498 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: up If we could find this evidence, we would know 499 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: who the perpetrator was. So I had an intern that 500 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: went down to Meriweather County looking for that piece of flesh. Right, 501 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: we just could not find it. We couldn't find it 502 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: at the GBI, we couldn't find it anywhere, and so 503 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: we just just kept on. It's hard people tell you 504 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: that the evidence doesn't exist, or. 505 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: They just haven't looked at all because either they didn't 506 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: care or they were instructed to ignore such requests. 507 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, there might be that. So finally we went in 508 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: person to the clerk's office and what they ended up 509 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: finding was not the piece of flesh, but there were 510 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 2: several of their hairs from the crime scene. Now, let 511 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: me just say that hairs are they're good evidence. 512 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: If they're good evidence, right, if the hairs are pulled 513 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: out from the root, then a DNA profile can be developed, right, 514 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: if they can. 515 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: Give us information. But there's also I mean, there could 516 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: be other reasons hairs were there. There was another Georgia 517 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: case that involved hairs, and the theory was that she 518 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: did her wash at the laundromat and she might have 519 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: picked up some random hairs there, which, of course, these 520 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 2: are pubic hairs, right, Why are you picking up pubic 521 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: hairs at the laundry. So anyway, but we were concerned, 522 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: you know, if these hairs didn't match John, that helped us, 523 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: but it might not walk him out of prison. So 524 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: we had to tell John, we've got these hairs. We're 525 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 2: going to test on. But so we sent those hairs 526 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: for DNA testing and we find out that the hairs 527 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: don't match John, and we all pile in the car 528 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: to staff members and our intern, Cliff Williams. Cliff had 529 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: been working on the case almost from the beginning. I 530 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: can't where were you, John, I can't even remember where 531 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 2: you were. 532 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 3: Macon Stay Prison. 533 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: So it's like two hours away. We get there and 534 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: we're getting all we're putting all of our stuff in 535 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: the trunk because you know, you can't take anything into 536 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 2: the prison with you. And I get a call from 537 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 2: the GBI and they tell me that there's been a 538 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 2: CODIS match and I'm standing in the parking lot going, 539 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: oh my gosh. We were just going down to tell 540 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: him we got the DNA but to hold on. And 541 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, we're going to get to 542 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: go in and tell him he's coming home. And I said, 543 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: who did it match? He goes, oh, it matched a 544 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: man named James Parhum. And at that point my intern goes, 545 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: James Parham, I think he was a suspect in this case. 546 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: So he pulls out the box, you know, because we 547 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: of course carry John's White's box all the way to 548 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: the prison with us, you know, his file, and he's 549 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: going through the file and he pulls out the photo 550 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: of the live lineup, turns it over and James Parham 551 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: is actually in the lineup where she picks John White 552 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: instead of James Parum. So we don't even know what 553 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: to do with all this, right, So we get to 554 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: go in and tell John all of this information. And 555 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: I'm like John, and don't know how quickly you're coming home, 556 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: but you're coming home. 557 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking at the photo right now, and we're 558 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: going to link to it from the bio. I mean, 559 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: oh my god, Like John is in the number three spot, 560 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: of course because he was the target. And James Parham 561 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: sure enough, is right there in number five right. 562 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 3: Oh, actually you know ed al Susan, Now was there? Men? Know, 563 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 3: a roommates that a suit that. 564 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: What? 565 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. I'm rarely at a loss for words, 566 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: but that's insane. 567 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 3: It was the strange thing happened throughout that my whole 568 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 3: journey concerned that he was in the same room up 569 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: with me. And I ended up with his Bible. When 570 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: I got out, it had the name on it. I 571 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: gave it back to his sister to get him. But yeah, 572 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: Amy came down and told me about I was getting out. 573 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: And when they did come to get me out, they 574 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 3: came back. They rushed back there because they didn't want 575 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: no media out at the institution. They rushed me in. 576 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 3: Wanted to know it was anybody to come get me, 577 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 3: and they went downtown and bought me some clothes and 578 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 3: made sure I was dressed. And when my mom and 579 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: them came to get me and they they me on 580 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 3: the way as quick as they can get me away 581 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: from there. 582 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: So, Amy, what were the machinations that you had to 583 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: go through to finish the job and get him home? 584 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: Well, it was so quick. So you know, we get 585 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: all the information, but so does the district's attorney. And 586 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: so of course when the district's attorney, and at that 587 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: time it was Pete Scandalacus, who is now the head 588 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: of the Prosecuting Attorney's Council here in Georgia, and he 589 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: saw what we saw, and of course I'm on the 590 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: phone with him, and on the way back from the prison, 591 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: I'm like, Pete, they got a codis match. 592 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 3: What are you gonna do? 593 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 2: And he contacted the prison and honestly, John John's family 594 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: got the notice to come pick him up, but literally 595 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: four days later his folks are on the way down 596 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: to Oglethort, Georgia to pick him up. So John was 597 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: hum So. 598 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: John, what was your first meal? Where did you go? 599 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: What did you what did you do? 600 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: It was like a blur. It was like a blur. 601 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 3: I can't remember too much of the only thing I 602 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 3: can remember looking back, when we passed the Prills and 603 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 3: going out, I think I went to sleep. I think 604 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 3: I went to sleep because somebody were happening. We went 605 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 3: by some my sister house, and then we went straight 606 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 3: to Atlanta, but press conferences and sayings of that nature. 607 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 3: And I had me some frid greade tomatoes, had some 608 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 3: some ochre. I've had been worn, it's all. And I 609 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: remembered that night that I got up and I walked. 610 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: I walked up to a restaurant, and this guy's a 611 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: chance just look up at the sky, you know, and 612 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 3: look at the stalls and things, and just it's well, 613 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 3: I could just see beyond that, you know, I could 614 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: get a chance to see the sky, you know, and 615 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: the stall and in the moon. Some of you didn't 616 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 3: very often, you didn't get to see too much of 617 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 3: why you was inde penal attention. 618 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: So James Parham played guilty. Who since the twenty years 619 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: in prison on this rape right. And then in two 620 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, the Georgia legislature authorized the payment of 621 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars in compensation to you. Now, no 622 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: amount of money would ever be enough, and that's not 623 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: even I mean, that's that number is tiny compared to 624 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: what it should be. 625 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, Joe or you don't have a 626 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 3: conversation law, And I got five hundred thousand dollars a 627 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: conversation with prescriptions that I gotta maintain some type of employment. 628 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: I got submit to drug tests and every so often 629 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: I can't catch another fella there though I'll lose my conversation. 630 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 3: I believe they put those stipulations in it because they 631 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: don't want to get it. They didn't want to give 632 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: me any money, and that it was done for me 633 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 3: to fail. You know, we asked for a million and something. 634 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 3: They got it down to seven undred and fifty thousand. 635 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 3: It passed one body of our legislature. Then it went 636 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: to the other body of our legislation and they they 637 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 3: rejected it. They revised it, and they agreed to all 638 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 3: these sipulations. 639 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's just crazy to me that anybody 640 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: could look at someone in your shoes and not have 641 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: an instinct to immediately want to help, but rather their 642 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: first instinct is I'm gonna fight this. I'm gonna I'm 643 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: gonna fight to not write this wrong, to keep this 644 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: wrong as wrong as it could be. Is there any 645 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: thing our audience can do for you, you know, right now? 646 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: Give them this opportunity to say what I'm about to say, 647 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 3: I never you know, go vote. You know what I'm saying, 648 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 3: Get these unsimpensated people that that's a part of our 649 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: legislation wave up there, so we can't get some of 650 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: the bill pass that would that a and us getting 651 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 3: you know, the support we need not only me, but 652 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 3: other people that's in then you know, the similar situations. Yeah, 653 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 3: you know, I you know, I'm gonna look out for me, 654 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 3: but that's what we need. We need voters. We need 655 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 3: those people that's in office that that's that's voting against 656 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 3: this is a change to be removed. 657 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: I hope our audience really takes those words to heart. 658 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: And what about you, Amy, any call to action for 659 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: our audience. 660 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think folks can obviously follow the Georgia Innocence Project, 661 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: particularly about the legislation, but there is also an Axigonnery, 662 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: So if folks wanted to donate to the Georgia Edison's project, 663 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 2: they could donate and specify that it's for the exoner refund. 664 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: That would be great. 665 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: Okay, So we'll have those action steps linked in the bio, 666 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 1: which brings us to my favorite part of the show. 667 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: It's called, of course, closing arguments, and this is the 668 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: part of the show where I thank you both for 669 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: being here and just sharing this unbelievable, horrible story. And 670 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: with that, I'm going to kick back in my chair, 671 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, and close 672 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: my eyes and just listen for anything else you want 673 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: to share it with me and our amazing audience. 674 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 2: I would highly recommend people google the live lineup photo 675 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: in John's case. When you get a chance to look 676 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: at the live lineup, you're going to see how different 677 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: James Parham looked from everybody else in that lineup. And 678 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: it just goes to show how incredibly difficult it is 679 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 2: to deal with eyewitness identification. I mean, the actual perpetrator 680 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 2: was there live in front of her, and she still 681 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: picked the wrong man. So I think that we all 682 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: need to be very cautious because, as we said earlier, 683 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 2: when the Eyewinness takes the standard trial and says that's 684 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: the person, it is incredibly powerful. But we need to 685 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: be very careful. The other thing is how really hard 686 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: it is to come out of prison. You know, even 687 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: though he comes out of prison an innocent man, prison 688 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: does a number on you. Prison physically changes you, you 689 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 2: and mentally for sure changes you. And there's really no 690 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 2: support other than the people who rally around him. So 691 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 2: you know, we've got to got to do better because 692 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: people are going to come out of prison and we 693 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 2: want them to be able to succeed or they're going 694 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 2: to What's going to happen is their struggle and they 695 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: end up committing a crime because they're struggling. 696 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 3: I'm thankful, I'm thankful aiming she know our love and 697 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: her determination to start to NSER project. My experience being 698 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 3: incost rated is it's like PGSD soldiers. I don't have 699 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 3: too much trust for nobody. I'm pretty much a loner. 700 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 3: I don't you know. I don't deal with a whole 701 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 3: lot of people. It's hard. It's hard, and I just 702 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 3: want the government to step up to the plate and 703 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 3: establish our social security benefits, our medical benefits and make 704 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 3: these things are possible so we can, you know, at 705 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 3: least live, you know, when we do get sick or 706 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 3: something like that, that we can go see a doctor. 707 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 3: We constantly being denied either easier benefit because we were 708 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 3: wrongly convicted. We weren't given an opportunity to build up, 709 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 3: to eat, you know, to have no kind of social 710 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 3: security in our benefits built up, it would take them 711 00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 3: from us. So it should be giving back to us. 712 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 3: That's what I want. 713 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 714 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Kleibern, and Kevin Wardis, 715 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 716 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 717 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 718 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 719 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 720 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both 721 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Wrongful Conviction is 722 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with 723 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one