WEBVTT - Snortin’ College Hoops with Nancy Armour 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:03.159 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where Kim Maulky 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.600 accidentally added us to LSU's team slack and now we 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.520 know their war game plan for the Sweet sixteen. Prayer Hands, 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:14.000 Prayer Hands, arm Flex American Flag Basketball. It's Thursday, March 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.840 twenty seventh, and on today's show, we'll be talking to 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.040 USA Today's Sports columnist Nancy Armour about everything from being 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.480 a quote unquote national disgrace and her March madness takes, 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.119 to Lindsay Vaughn's return to skiing and the philosophy that 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.000 drives Nancy as a journalist. Plus one sport makes an 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.320 unfortunate return to the past, and another offers a glimpse 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:33.440 of the future. It's all coming up right after this 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.640 welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.920 Let's start with the NWSL where our coming soon FC 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.400 jerseys are already out of style. The Boston expansion team's 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.760 new and much anticipated name was finally unveiled on Wednesday, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:00.920 the Boston Legacy Football Club Boston Legacy FC. The change 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.600 comes five months after public outcry about the original name 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.040 Boston Nation FC and the too many Balls marketing campaign 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.280 that accompanied it. In a statement, the club's controlling owner, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.920 Jennifer Epstein said of the new name, quote, we aim 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.560 for our values to reflect a city that breathes competition, passion, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.200 and pride, and to pay tribute to those who paved 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.959 the way before us, including the game changers who helped 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.720 build previous women's professional teams in Boston. End quote. The 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.000 club plans to unveil its crest and full branding this summer. 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:34.319 My opinion, Legacy's kind of underwhelming. It doesn't feel specific 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.120 to Boston or the area really at all. But I 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.119 kind of do like the idea of fans yelling let's 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.320 go Legs. I don't know, just has like a nice 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.920 rig to it. And I assume that the name has 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.720 to do with creating a legacy for pro women's soccer 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.800 in the town, or maybe a bit of a hat 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.600 tip to the legacy that began with the Boston Breakers. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.880 I don't know. Legacy is a nice sentiment, and in 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:56.880 the end, we know the name is usually the biggest 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.040 thing when it's announced, and then isn't all that important 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.840 once the games begin. So I guess I'll just say 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.760 Legacy better than Boss Nation, not offensive at all, which 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:07.920 is a great start, and I guess let's get to 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.000 the soccer, because I can't imagine a team more ready 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:11.840 to get on the field and have actual games to 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.440 talk about than the Boston Folks to the PWHL. You 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.960 may recall that in yesterday's interview with hockey writer Hailey 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.639 Salve and she said that pretty much every PWHL team 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.880 was still in the running for this year's Walter Cup, except, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.560 of course, for the sixth place New York Sirens. Well, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.440 the Sirens' ears must have been ringing because on Tuesday 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.919 night they were losing three nothing to the Ottawa Charge 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:35.240 midway through the second period, but scored six, yes, six 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.040 unanswered goals in the third to win it six to three. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.799 What those six goals broke the PWHL record for most 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.359 goals in a single period by a full two goals. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.280 The previous record was four. So I guess what they're 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.640 saying is, don't count us out just yet. To track 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:54.280 and field. On Tuesday, World Athletics president seb Co announced 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.840 that the organization is planning to reintroduce gender verification testing 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.840 in order to maintain quote the integrity of the competition 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.400 end quote. If the new policy is implemented, competitors in 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.320 the women's category will be required to do a chromosome 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.800 test using a dry blood spot sample or a cheek swab, 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.120 and any athlete with a Y chromosome will be barred 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.480 from competing unless they can show that they are quote 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.880 completely insensitive to androgens end quote. Now it's worth noting 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.560 that World Athletics already has a near blanket ban on 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.440 transgender women competing in the women's category, so this new 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.520 policy is especially targeted at cisgender women with differences of 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.920 sexual development AKADSDS. Gender verification tests aren't new in women's sports. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.280 In fact, policies like the one World Athletics plans to 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.760 reintroduce were the norm until the nineteen nineties, when they 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.240 were abandoned after decades of athletes complaining about their invasiveness 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.160 and scientific research showing their flaws and drawbacks. Now, if 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.760 you haven't heard it already, listen to the podcast Tested. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.120 It's a six part series on the history of sex 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.800 testing in sports that will offer a lot of context 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.640 and facts about this decision from World Athletics. We spoke 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.520 with the quarter of the Tested series, Rose Evelyth, last 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.000 summer on this show they wrote on Blue Sky of 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.200 the return to this chromosome based policy. Quote, World Athletics 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.760 is going back to mandatory sex testing for all women. 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.600 This is something that was done for years but abandoned 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.280 in the nineteen nineties because it was invasive, discriminatory, and 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.600 also useless. They continued, quote, some estimates suggest that one 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.359 in five hundred women would test positive for a Y 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.799 chromosome end quote. We'll link to both the Tested series 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.480 and our interview with Rose in the show notes. Tavibs 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.920 in Love Pro Volleyball. The two top teams in the 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.960 league meet tonight, with number one Atlanta traveling to number 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.040 two Houston. We're in the final two weeks of the 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.039 regular season, and while all six teams will qualify for 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.840 the playoffs, Atlanta and Houston have been so good this 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.200 season that this could be an early preview of what 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.600 to expect in the finals. That match tips at eight 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.280 pm Eastern tonight. Will link to the full Love schedule 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.640 in the show notes. We got to take a quick break. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:06.640 When we come back. It's Nancy Armor joining us now. 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.760 She's been a sports columnist for USA Today since twenty fourteen. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.840 Previously spent twenty years with the Associated Press and has 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.880 covered every Olympics since nineteen ninety six. She grew up 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.440 a Packers fan and went to Marquette University in Milwaukee, 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.320 but smartly came south to the greatest city in the world, Chicago, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.520 and she's never left. Meghan Kelly called her a goddamn 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.039 national disgrace. It's Nancy Armor, Hi, Nancy. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:29.320 Hello, Sarah, how are you. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.159 I'm pretty good, real quick on that. Megan Kelly thing 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.880 as someone who has myself faced the wrath of the 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.760 right wing news programs, and also very disappointing when you 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.760 learn about it, because someone's like, my dad saw you 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.400 on Fox News and you're like, oh, that's too bad 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.880 for you. How did you react or feel when Meghan 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.440 Kelly and Greg Guttfeld and others sort of sicked their 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.200 viewers on you for the column that you wrote about 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.880 Don Staley and her support of transparticipation in sport. 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.520 I mean, I consider it a badge of honor. You know, 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:00.880 if I'm pissing them off, I must be doing something right. 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.320 That's kind of how I look at it. But yeah, 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.839 it is always weird that when somebody tells me that 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:08.960 or oh, I was watching Fox News and I'm like, 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:14.520 oh god, no, please, right, yeah, I And I mean 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.920 you know this, you get it all the time. I'm 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.320 still caring. You know, there are days that it depends 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.560 upon how much coffee I've had or whatever, but I 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.960 mostly just don't care because I and this is going 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:29.520 to sound arrogant, and I don't mean it too, but 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:31.440 I know that I am on the right side of 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.960 history and issues like that, and it shocks me and 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.960 enrages me that we haven't caught up to the rights 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:39.359 of that right side of history yet, but I know 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:43.160 we eventually will. So I am perfectly okay with taking 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.919 up my positions on that. And if you know, the 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.360 Megan Kelly's of the world don't like it, I don't 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:48.839 much care. 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.360 I actually completely agree, And when I ended up in 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.120 that sort of like washing machine of garbage, I felt 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.039 very strongly about my opinion in my perspective. But also 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.520 it still sucks when you have like thousands or hundreds 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:05.080 of people in your men cheese being terrible. So I'm 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.080 sorry for that and also agree with you. You're on 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:08.480 the right side of things, and it is a bit 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.760 of a badge of honor. I want to talk about 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.000 this women's NCAA basketball tournament. But first you just got 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.320 back or you still are there covering downhill skiing. Yes, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.720 very big weekend for a big name. You got to 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.040 see forty year old Lindsay Vaughn take silver in the 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.280 Super G at the World Cup Finals in Sun Valley, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.200 just four months after coming out of retirement. There were 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.680 a lot of emotions from her, can you take us there? 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:30.640 And what you saw on herd? 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.600 Yeah, so she was and all the skiers were a 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.520 little bit disappointed because the downhill on Saturday was canceled. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.400 They had gotten roughly six inches of snow here in 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.640 sun Valley overnight and then winds kicked up, and you 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.520 know anything about downhill skiing, you don't want to be 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.640 having people going sixty seventy eighty miles an hour and 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.960 going over jumps when there's like a gust of wind blowing. 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.560 That would not be safe for anybody. So Lindsay's last 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.920 race was the Super G on Sunday and she started 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.760 low in the order, which if it's better to be 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.960 starting the higher up, those are tending to be the 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.480 you know where the track is the best, you know 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.520 before it gets broken down, And she just crushed it. 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.440 She she had that fine line of being super aggressive 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.400 but just being on the very edge of being out 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.480 of control, but she wasn't out of control. And when 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.960 she crossed the finish line, like when people, you know, 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.000 because the stands are the fans are watching on the 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.800 big screens, and the roar that went up when she 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.480 crossed the finish line was just like, I'm getting goosebumps 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.360 now thinking about it. Yeah, and she was so thrilled. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.200 I mean, you know, it's a she's forty years old, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.520 oldest woman by a long time to win a World 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.120 Cup medal, World Cup Finals well yeah, Wold Cup medal 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.920 and World Cup Finals medal. It was her first podium 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.560 appearance since in a World Cup since twenty eighteen World 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:55.160 Championships twenty nineteen. And she's also been dealing with you know, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.040 she was retired for five years, and she's been dealing 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.320 with some people who when she came back, were saying, 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.360 why are you doing this, you know, questioning hermotives, saying, oh, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.640 there's no way you can do this. So there was, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.520 as she said, there was relief. It wasn't that she 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.680 ever doubted herself, but it was really satisfactory. To be 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.679 able to shot the people who did doubt her up. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.560 You wrote a great column about it's not just about Lindsay, 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:18.679 but every other female athlete that we don't even know 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.520 what they can do and how long they can do 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.040 it for. And the science is behind and the resources 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.840 are behind. But as we are helping fuel and serve 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.400 and heal female athletes later in life, they are getting 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.559 more opportunities to prove that our limitations were probably artificial 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.960 for a while. And she's just the latest example. It's 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:37.440 a great story. Everyone to check it out. Also, you 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.200 wrote about an up and comer that we should keep 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.199 an eye on Lauren Masuga, someone we should know ahead 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:43.160 of next year's Olympics. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:49.520 Probably, yes, very much so. She and her sisters. Lauren 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.840 is she's hilarious personally, but she is a really good skier. 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.960 She's just twenty two. She won the Super G in 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.560 Saint Anton earlier this year. She made a downhill podium 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.480 in the World Cup. She made the Super G podium 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.640 at the World Championships. She's really become a factor And 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.640 as of right now, there's there's one more race on Thursday, 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.760 but as of right now, she is the top American 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.440 woman in the down in the overall standings, which is 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:18.800 you know, we haven't seen that the last couple of years. 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:20.800 It's always, you know, it was either Mikayla Shiffern or 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.280 it was Lindsay Vaughn. And now we've got somebody new. 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.360 And because of missing a bunch of events because of 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.920 the injury and whatnot. But still, yeah, all that being said, yeah, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.160 something to keep an eye on for sure. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.000 Yeah, And she's got a great story. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:35.360 She is. 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.600 She's got two sisters. One sister is a mogul skier, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.679 one sister is a ski jumper, and each one of 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.440 them is on their national team. So you could have 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.600 three sisters at the Olympics next year. It's it's crazy. Yeah, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.280 it's a wonderful story. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.600 All right, let's talk coops because you're joining us. About 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.920 a year after Caitlin Clark and the Clark angel Reese 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:02.280 rivalry helped women's basketball break countless viewing records and breakthrough 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.040 onto the big debate shows, which sort of changed where 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.400 it sits in the sports landscape, you wrote about how 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.400 the enthusiasm hasn't left the college game just because Caitlin 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.920 has What are we seeing? One year later in terms 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:14.680 of some of the numbers and also excitement. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.440 Yeah, well we've seen you know, big ratings. Again, it 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.679 used to be like I remember last year, in the 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.800 year before, when a women's basketball game would get a 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.520 million viewers, it was like, oh my god, that's you know, 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.000 that's just huge. You know, this year there were a 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:29.640 ton of them. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.360 At least half a dozen, you said, by yeah, just 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:33.280 in the regular season. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.080 Yeah, and you know, we've seen it more in conference championships. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.440 In the tournaments. Clark might have been the gateway for 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.920 some people to come in, but once they got here, 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.640 they realized like, oh, there are great other players, you know, 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.440 whether it's ju Ju, whether it's Paige, whether it's malaysa 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.160 full Wiley, Like, you know, people realize that this that 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.800 the game is actually really darn good. And so I 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.880 think we've seen that carry over in the regular season, 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:59.920 and corporate sponsors and people with money have realized that, oh, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.920 you know, there's I don't want to say that there's 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.760 necessarily that men's sports has hit a ceiling, but there's 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.760 a lot less room for growth than there is in 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.439 the women's game. And people who know a lot about 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.280 sponsorships and advertising half recognize that that, hey, if we 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.400 want to make some money, this is a real growth 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.320 opportunity for us, And so they're putting money into women's sports, 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:21.559 which is terrific to see. 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.280 Yeah, I want to get to some of the spots 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.440 that we're seeing and what we can expect during the 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.720 rest of this tournament. But you've now introduced yet another 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.280 term for Kaitlin Clark. You said she might be a doorway, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.679 a gateway, So I'm going to go gateway drug, gateway 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.240 drug to start, just like snorting all of women's college 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.280 basketball and other sports. I usually call her the match 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.920 for the bonfire. It was already built, but then you 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.520 needed that little match to really set it a blaze. 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.000 But I'm going I like gateway drug. Like gateway drug. 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.120 That's good. Let's talk about that. You mentioned the average 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.920 price for a thirty second spot in the story that 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.800 you wrote for this year's women's NCAA Championship game has 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.600 more than doubled from last spring, going for about four 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.480 hundred and forty thousand dollars, according to Sports Business Journal. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.880 So how important is it for the business and the 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.680 sponsorship side to sort of lead the way so that 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.199 they can convince late adopters in front offices, media outlets, 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.320 or otherwise that women's sports is a massive economic opportunity. 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.199 It's huge, and I think when we have the sponsors, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.319 or when you have the people with the money at stake, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.720 when they've invested, when they have gotten involved, there is 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.560 no going back. Because we saw in the late nineties 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.960 early two thousands, we saw big numbers, whether it was 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.440 the WNBA or whether it was a college game, and 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.959 then there was a backslide. And we can discuss all 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:43.000 of the reasons why, but when you have these people 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:47.400 who are investing, they're not going to let this backslide 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.160 because they have too much money invested. Now there's too 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.880 much riding on this. So I think it's huge that 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.600 you know, the game itself has gotten better, We've seen 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.280 that in the tournament itself, especially at the upper levels, 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.520 but the fact that there's you know, we're seeing commercials 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:08.360 with page and juju. This is mainstream. And so now 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.600 that there is a foothold in mainstream conversations or that 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.120 that women's sports are part of the mainstream sports culture, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.120 it's really hard to say, Okay, we're going to go 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:20.880 back to where we were five and seven years ago. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.640 It's you know that that ship thankfully has sailed, and 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.560 it's just you know, are we going to see the 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.040 rocket fuel growth that we have the last couple of years. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.600 Probably not, But are we going to see steady and 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:34.240 sustain growth. Absolutely? 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.560 Yeah. We do need to not expect every year to 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.440 be able to say and we broke another record, and 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.520 we broke it down the record because eventually I need 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.480 to just be sustained in positive growth. But it can 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.040 go backwards, and if it does, it's usually because of intention. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.280 What we often do is act like it's a natural 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.600 response to the product, but usually someone with a big 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.880 amount of power is the one impacting that backslide. And 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:58.760 I know I talked to you for an article you 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.400 wrote a couple months ago, and as we were talking, 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.200 you were getting ready to talk to Mark Shapiro, who 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.320 was in programming, uh in charge of programming for ESPN. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.560 When they buried the WNBA and ESPN two, it was 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.160 averaging over a million and a half plus households on 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.800 you know, each of its first three seasons before that move. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.880 What did you tell you about that? Because I think 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.800 that's worth talking about too, is are we is there 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.000 potential for that to happen again, if someone in charge 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.320 decides that they want to bury it. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.080 I'll take the second part first. I don't think so, 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.560 because I think we have seen enough. I think there 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.240 is there are enough data points, there's enough demand now 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:39.440 from viewers and from from from people to realize that, hey, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.680 this is worthwhile programming. This is going to get ratings 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:44.520 as long as we've promoted, as long as we give it, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.160 you know, put it in the right spots. It is, 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.040 it is worthy. 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:49.440 You know. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.600 Shapiro, I think has I don't necessarily want to say 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.200 he's come to see the error of his ways, but 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.960 he says that he was brought in to fix ESPN's 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:00.920 ratings and he didn't want to air anything that was 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:02.960 going to be a potential drag on the ratings, which 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.200 that's chicken or the egg. You know, where were you 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.440 putting women's basketball. You were putting it on ESPN two. 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.600 You were putting it at weird times, like you know, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:12.480 of course you weren't going to draw as well when 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.680 you're doing that. If you had given it the time slots, 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.840 if you had given it the promotion that NBC had 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.320 those first few seasons, I think it would have been 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.560 a different story. Now, does he not like women's basketball? 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.520 He says, no, that you know that he's a big fan. Yeah, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.040 he's actually an iowagrad. So he's a huge Caitlin Clark fan. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:29.280 He you know. 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.440 He says it was all about ratings. I am am 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.920 not wanting to have a drag on ESPN ratings. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.080 And quality of play, he said, I remember, Yeah, the 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.640 quality of play wasn't ready for ESPN, which is interesting 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:43.760 for a network that will air Little League World Series 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.160 and other things. And also I think when you go 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.280 back and watch, yes, absolutely, the talent has improved. When 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.040 you go back and watch like Tisha Pennicero and Cheryl 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.680 Swoops and these players from the early years, there was 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.840 a ton of talent. There's just not that well produced 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.840 as far as like game production and and game entertainment opportunities, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.560 and it just didn't look as high value when you 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.480 were watching it. But the play wasn't the problem. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.120 No, I agree with that. And if the play had 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.640 been the problem, then you could say, well, then why 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.120 was NBC getting the ratings that they were. So it's 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.719 you know, any excuse, and I'll use the word excuse, 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.760 any excuse that you can give for doing it. There 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.399 is a very easy rebuttal for it. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.600 Yeah. So this is the first time ever that women's 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.480 teams that advance in the tournament will earn their schools 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.600 and conference money quote unquote units. We've talked about these 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.600 on the show before, but can you talk about how 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.000 that change, even with a much smaller pool of money 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.000 than the men's side, will affect the future of women's 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.159 programs and investments across the space. 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.399 Yeah. First of all, can we just talk about the 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.280 fact it is twenty freaking twenty five and women are 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.640 finally getting paid for me in the tournament? 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.560 I agreed, But also at this point, when I say 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.479 it's twenty twenty five, it's actually like all bets are off, like, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.439 well that it used to be like this is the 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.040 year whatever, so we should be No, at this point, 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.160 it's like what the is going on pretty much all 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.399 the time in twenty twenty five. But agreed that it 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:07.560 should not have taken this long. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:12.760 Yeah, yeah, that's true. You know, this is this is monumental. 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:18.639 The basic explanation or why units are important. Schools that 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.720 make the tournament, they earn money for their conferences. The 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.040 money goes to the conference. The conference then doles it 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.119 out to the schools. It's very similar to what what 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.080 they do with the with football and the bol you 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.200 know the Bowls series that there's a there's a pot 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.919 and then it goes out to the different conferences and 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.680 trickles down to the schools. That money is significant because 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.240 that's what you put back into your program. That is 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.879 what you can use to improve facilities. That is what 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.680 you you can use to go to the tournament in 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.760 the Bahamas or a tournament why where you are going 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.960 to get better competition in the non conference season. That 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.520 is money that you can spend to upgrade your coaching staff, 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:02.520 or add a dedicated nutritionist, or expand your coach at 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.439 your pool of assistance, all of these things which are 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.560 these are building blocks. So you know, you do that, 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.359 your team gets better. You know, that means that you 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.040 win more games, which means you get more money, which 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.399 means you can do this. It's it's the it's the 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.520 foundation that men's teams have always had and that is 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:22.119 part of the reason that they've had the growth that 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.080 they've had. You know, it's the same thing as we've 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.520 seen with any other women's sports, like with soccer, if 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.280 you don't put money into your product, you can't expect 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.840 that you're going to get the best product, as you know, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.119 the best result, right, So this is to me, this 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.400 is huge. Again, it's not the same pool of money 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.280