Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Of all the people
Speaker 1: I've spoken with on River Cafe Conversations, Norman Foster is
Speaker 1: the person I've known for the longest time. In fact,
Speaker 1: we met in nineteen seventy when I was twenty two.
Speaker 1: We've been through a lot together, bonded by a love
Speaker 1: for family, adventure, architecture. Tonight, we're going to have dinner
Speaker 1: with his wonderful wife Elena and his son Eduardo. But
Speaker 1: before we do, Norman and I will talk about our
Speaker 1: love for food and our love for each other. Fantastic.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about my favorite dish in my favorite rest
Speaker 1: with my favorite person. Pesto. It's a classic source of Liguria,
Speaker 1: where basil grows on the hills overlooking the Mediterranean under
Speaker 1: the hot sun, and the recipe is trophere with pesto,
Speaker 1: which serves six two hundred grams of fresh basil leaves,
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty grams of parmesan, freshly grated, half
Speaker 1: a garlic clove, peeled grams of pine nuts, two hundred
Speaker 1: millilters of extra virgin olive oil, and three hundred grams
Speaker 1: of the pasta. So we put the basil leaves and
Speaker 1: the parmesan, the garlic and the pine nuts into a
Speaker 1: food processor, add the extra virgin olive oil, some sea
Speaker 1: salt and black pepper and bind together to make a
Speaker 1: smooth paste. Bring a large part of salted water to
Speaker 1: the boil and cut the trophya for about ten minutes.
Speaker 1: Drained the pasta and returned to the pot. Gently stir
Speaker 1: in the pesto, checked the seasoning, and serve with grated parmesan.
Speaker 1: Sounds delicious to have some? Maybe I hope it will
Speaker 1: be on the menu tonight. So I have all the
Speaker 1: recipes and all the books. What made you? She is pesta?
Speaker 1: I can't remember when I discovered pasta, but I can
Speaker 1: remember when I discovered pasta and risotto. I was a
Speaker 1: student and I had cycled and ended up in Milan,
Speaker 1: and I associated rice with rice pudding, which was sweet
Speaker 1: and sickly and really for me, not very nice. And
Speaker 1: I discovered rice and pasta and it was just a
Speaker 1: great discovery. That was a very very long time ago.
Speaker 1: How old were you then, ah, I must have been
Speaker 1: in my teens. And then what about when of them
Speaker 1: went to university? When you when you studied architecture, tell
Speaker 1: me about that. As a student of architecture, every vacation,
Speaker 1: after really working to raise funds, I'd be traveling either
Speaker 1: to Italy, France, classical architecture, Palladio, an interest in urban spaces,
Speaker 1: particularly in Italy, but also trips to Scandinavia, discovering the
Speaker 1: work of Hudson, for example before he won the competition
Speaker 1: for the for the Opera house. And always there's there
Speaker 1: was the constant of the food and the drink of
Speaker 1: the of the area. So I think they were, you know,
Speaker 1: simultaneous revelations about design, architecture, food and and really a lifestyle.
Speaker 1: I guess, the discovery of of the pleasure and the
Speaker 1: luxury of dining. Is it so interesting to tell me
Speaker 1: about a city that you visited where the architecture and
Speaker 1: the food you mentioned literally it is always fantastic, you know,
Speaker 1: the memories are of you know, the places that I
Speaker 1: would measure the public spaces, so the main square Campo
Speaker 1: in Sienna, August Square in Verona, or the short cut
Speaker 1: through the galleria in Miland that connects Las Gala to
Speaker 1: the to the cathedral, and always a kind of pavement
Speaker 1: cafe and you know, just a great synergy of of
Speaker 1: food of public space. I wouldn't wouldn't be calling it
Speaker 1: public space then, but but it was that interest in
Speaker 1: urbanity in the city. Yeah. Again, I think is unusual
Speaker 1: because a school of architecture is much more about about
Speaker 1: the design of individual buildings and not the infrastructure of
Speaker 1: a city. But it's the infrastructure of public spaces that
Speaker 1: makes you know, it's a look out of the window here,
Speaker 1: it's your your green space, which is the focus. Um
Speaker 1: that's much more than you know as a symbol of
Speaker 1: the river cafe than the indoor space. That's much more
Speaker 1: powerful identity and the water. So it's this little quarter
Speaker 1: that's kind of like a city in microcosm. Tell me
Speaker 1: about going to Yale and meeting Richard. Well, I'm met
Speaker 1: Richard at a full bright reception and I remember that
Speaker 1: he was heavily bandage from a ski accident. And and
Speaker 1: then the next time, of course, was the beginning of
Speaker 1: the master's class in Yale, which must have been ninetie
Speaker 1: and the school started the first day of term, and
Speaker 1: the School of Architecture closed its premises on the last day,
Speaker 1: so it was a twenty four hour school and the
Speaker 1: Dean Paul Rudolph was quite a character and drove everybody
Speaker 1: very hard. And they were always so called charettes where
Speaker 1: you would burn the midnight oil. And I remember that
Speaker 1: the only place that was open all night was a
Speaker 1: cafe called My Brothers, I think it was, yes, and
Speaker 1: we'd be we'd be there sometimes in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night and and discovering American American food like pastronomy sandwiches,
Speaker 1: and then I remember it being fantastic that you also
Speaker 1: Richard often spoke about going to the Fourth Seasons. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: the Four Seasons restaurant at the base of the Seagram building,
Speaker 1: which was Miss vander Rose still enduring bronze early classic skyscraper.
Speaker 1: Must have been the late nineteen fifties, I guess, and
Speaker 1: the base of that building was the restaurant that Philip
Speaker 1: Johnson and he did together with this extraordinary sculpture over
Speaker 1: the bar, and originally the rockco paintings in the pool
Speaker 1: room sadly long gone, the pool in the center. Absolutely
Speaker 1: classic restaurant, I mean, breathtaking interior and I remember really
Speaker 1: very classic menu and that was I mean to go
Speaker 1: there for a drink on an excursion to New York
Speaker 1: with Richard with Jim Sterling or whatever. And I remember
Speaker 1: Jim surreptitiously pulling the ashtray and sliding it into his
Speaker 1: the kind of pocket of his coat. And at the
Speaker 1: end of the drinks, when he was given the bill,
Speaker 1: the waiter said, oh, by the way, this figure here,
Speaker 1: that's the cost of the extra. But that was That
Speaker 1: was quite a treat to That was a perfect melding
Speaker 1: of architecture and incredible marriage of just a great space,
Speaker 1: amazing taste, classic furniture. I remember Philip had his office
Speaker 1: in the in the sugrum, and he could have his
Speaker 1: the table of his regular table in the corner and
Speaker 1: hold forth hold court. That was he teaching at Yale.
Speaker 1: Did you know him? He was a visiting critic. A
Speaker 1: great thing about Paul Rudolph You would bring together people
Speaker 1: who would not necessarily see eye to eye with his
Speaker 1: architecture the other way around, Um, but consciously bringing descent
Speaker 1: to bear on you know, those of us who were
Speaker 1: who were students at that time, we were real beneficiaries
Speaker 1: of that. I mean, it was an incredible combination because
Speaker 1: you had Paul Rudolph Um and for the second half,
Speaker 1: Serge Shamayah, the European Russian sort of emigrant. You had
Speaker 1: Vincent Scully as the historian, and coming at it from
Speaker 1: those different angles we were. We were very privileged and
Speaker 1: also interesting that that Philip Johnson invited students, you know,
Speaker 1: to come and have lunch at the fourth seasons sometimes yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and and I remember one amazing crit and the crit
Speaker 1: was a theatrical event. When you presented your design one
Speaker 1: after the other and you had the the whole school
Speaker 1: would crowd into the room and there was a sense
Speaker 1: of anticipation and theater. I mean, it was a little
Speaker 1: bit like the arena, you know, with a bear pit.
Speaker 1: And I remember Richard and I did a scheme together
Speaker 1: that was pretty controversial because it hadn't happened before, the
Speaker 1: idea of two people coming together to do a joint presentation.
Speaker 1: And in the middle of it, Philip said something like, well,
Speaker 1: this model is great, but I don't know what these
Speaker 1: buildings are doing in the middle of this spine. I
Speaker 1: really think they should come off. And he grabbed the model.
Speaker 1: He grabbed the offending buildings in the middle of this
Speaker 1: circulation spine with the zigga outside the side of it
Speaker 1: and through it through and Paul Rudolph said, you're so right.
Speaker 1: I've been telling the two of them, but they never listened,
Speaker 1: remember saying afterwards, and actually they were both right, Yes
Speaker 1: they were right, but it was there. It was like
Speaker 1: a real cut on trust and good times. But when
Speaker 1: you think of theater when you go to a restaurant,
Speaker 1: do you look for the drama of a restaurant? Do
Speaker 1: you choose restaurants or so what do you look? Think
Speaker 1: we're attracted to being together and in a way that
Speaker 1: again the pandemic has has magnified that and made us
Speaker 1: realized the privilege and the luxury are being able to
Speaker 1: come together. So it is the atmosphere of a communality
Speaker 1: of people having a shared sense of of occasion and
Speaker 1: that can be That can be very modest cafes, b
Speaker 1: stros where you might be sitting on a bench or
Speaker 1: just under you know, the shade of a tree. I
Speaker 1: mean it sounds corny and romantic, but um, but you
Speaker 1: know genuine places. So early life, tell me about Manchester.
Speaker 1: Did your mother cook? Your father cooked? My mother cook?
Speaker 1: But it was the classic baked beans on toast, or
Speaker 1: it would be fish and chips from a fish and
Speaker 1: chip shop. It would be a roast on Sunday's. Sunday's
Speaker 1: was a special day and I'd go around to the
Speaker 1: corner shop to get mustard powder and I remember making
Speaker 1: that to go with the with the beef. That was
Speaker 1: that was a special day. Did you make it or
Speaker 1: did your mom? My mother? Your mother did? Was she
Speaker 1: working full time? Was? What do you think? Food was
Speaker 1: something you put on the table? Later she worked, but
Speaker 1: at that time, my father, I think this was a
Speaker 1: time during the during the war and rationing and so
Speaker 1: far far removed. Yeah, I was saying that. I out
Speaker 1: with Paul McCartney, who probably is the same generation, and
Speaker 1: he described growing up in Liverpool and very much the
Speaker 1: same kind of food, which is, you know, came out
Speaker 1: of the war, It came out of poverty, it came
Speaker 1: out of isolation. As you say, yes, I can. I
Speaker 1: can remember my my mother discovering dried eggs which came
Speaker 1: from America and you whipped them with this powder, this
Speaker 1: bright yellow powder in a brown greaseproof package, and and
Speaker 1: fruit were scarce. I mean if you got a tangerine,
Speaker 1: that was a real treat, I mean, very very special.
Speaker 1: And I remember when the after the war when the
Speaker 1: shops opened Inqueues for sweets. Sweets were like a rare delicacy.
Speaker 1: And remember Hershey bars, where it somehow found their way through,
Speaker 1: you know, through children and friends of g I s
Speaker 1: who were stationed nearby. Were you hungry, No, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I never remember being hungry. So I think that rather
Speaker 1: like Paul that you're describing, I think one maintains an
Speaker 1: appreciation of of large if because it was also out
Speaker 1: of very you know, desperate conditions of you know, a
Speaker 1: fashioning of the war. I remember the Russian book as
Speaker 1: if it was Yes, what was it like? It was
Speaker 1: Kopen's was a government document. It's a powerful image and
Speaker 1: really quite symbolic. Yeah. And when you were growing up,
Speaker 1: were you interested you think, even though you were deprived
Speaker 1: of the of the kind of exciting food from the can,
Speaker 1: did you think about it? Did you think that food
Speaker 1: could taste a than the Remember a bike ride which
Speaker 1: was I must have been sixteen, and I was with
Speaker 1: a friend and this was the first time out of Manchester.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just out of Manchester, it was taking
Speaker 1: a train to London, crossing the Channel, and I remember
Speaker 1: the first meal in France It was in a very
Speaker 1: humble cafe and I remember this friend and myself automatically
Speaker 1: as a reaction we were served dinner and asking for
Speaker 1: the salt and pepper, because that was a ritualistic you know,
Speaker 1: whenever food was served, you automatically sprayed it with salt
Speaker 1: and pepper. It was and I remember the look of
Speaker 1: absolute horror the proprietor serving the food. We have already
Speaker 1: added and that was interestingly, that was a turning point.
Speaker 1: When do you think that you really discovered what food
Speaker 1: could be on that trip and then did you continue, yes,
Speaker 1: subsequent trips and perhaps also a taste for more exotic
Speaker 1: food because as a student in Manchester, I remember the
Speaker 1: only affordable food which was which was interesting was Indian food.
Speaker 1: So I was a student at Manchester. It was really
Speaker 1: side street Indian. Again, quite humble Indian restaurants, but good food.
Speaker 1: Would you ever go out with your parents for a
Speaker 1: meal or was that really Yeah? I remember going to
Speaker 1: a coffee shop in Manchester which was called the Cardoma
Speaker 1: and was very dark wood and kind of modernist curves.
Speaker 1: That was a rare occasion to take a tram or
Speaker 1: a trolleybus into central Manchester and that was. That was
Speaker 1: a very special treat. So it was before architecture school. Oh, yes,
Speaker 1: that was way before I was really discovering. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: sought out a coffee shop that was beautiful architecture, very
Speaker 1: very strong and touching memories of that, Yes, going that?
Speaker 1: Did you go often? What was it a special once
Speaker 1: in a blue moon? As when you couldn't eat out
Speaker 1: or afford restaurants and you wanted to eat as? Did
Speaker 1: you learn to cook? Did you decide if I can't
Speaker 1: afford to eat out, I'm going to try to eat No.
Speaker 1: I mean, Elena will reminisce about the only time that
Speaker 1: I made a meal was spaghetti and pesto. But I
Speaker 1: think that was such an exception that it's been imprinted
Speaker 1: on her memory. But I remember, and I was so
Speaker 1: happy when you chose pesto, because I do remember, and
Speaker 1: it probably was it was a contrabasset in Wiltshire And
Speaker 1: so what did that have been in the early eight
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and yeah, I counted the league. Yes,
Speaker 1: I came down and I said, Nor, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: And you were going n seven hundred and he said, well,
Speaker 1: I found a recipe that requires um, you know sort
Speaker 1: of twenty basil leaves for pesto. But we're eight people,
Speaker 1: so I have to count down a hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: sixty leaves of basil. I said, okay, we also could
Speaker 1: possibly weigh ten leaves and then multiply it. But we
Speaker 1: sat there and the two of us, you know, and
Speaker 1: I thought, this is a man who really cares about,
Speaker 1: you know, the end result, getting it right. And then
Speaker 1: I remember once also in your your house on the
Speaker 1: in the penthouse and overlooking at the river, we were
Speaker 1: talking about I think you were helping me with what
Speaker 1: how to design in the River Cafe cookbook, and I
Speaker 1: came over to see you and we were talking about it,
Speaker 1: and and then we decided to cook a recipe together,
Speaker 1: and I could really see you in the kitchen, and
Speaker 1: I don't I wonder why you don't cook more, because
Speaker 1: there maybe that's another life, still, maybe living hope. Very
Speaker 1: often they'll say that a city has a great food culture,
Speaker 1: and that's because a lot of restaurants have just opened
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of young chefs working there and
Speaker 1: people are going to restaurants. But I think that and
Speaker 1: I wonder if you agree that if you go to
Speaker 1: a city like Paris, or you go to Milan, the
Speaker 1: taxi driver can tell you how to cook at sea
Speaker 1: bass and the boulangerie will not sell bread, you know,
Speaker 1: after eleven o'clock for lunch, and then you have to
Speaker 1: go back and fourth for dinner. And that seems like
Speaker 1: a deep culture of There are wonderful places in Spain
Speaker 1: where the food is really a cult and it's a
Speaker 1: very male. Tell me about what do you mean. I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking of parts of northern Spain where that gastronomic
Speaker 1: tradition really permeates society and everybody is you know, lives
Speaker 1: it as a as as a way of life. But
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right about the the taxi driver. And I
Speaker 1: always remember you and it totally told me about a
Speaker 1: taxi driver in Paris where he was saying, you know
Speaker 1: something like I lived to eat. And I always remember
Speaker 1: your your quotation on that. And I think when you're
Speaker 1: in Um, in some moretts, when you're in in Martha's vineyards,
Speaker 1: when you're in Madrid, do you always have the food
Speaker 1: of that culture? Absolutely? Yes, I think we enjoy the differences,
Speaker 1: we enjoy the What is special about a location, a place, um,
Speaker 1: a quarter in a in a city or a street,
Speaker 1: or a particular shop or a specialty. I think that
Speaker 1: becomes increasingly more significant as the world gets flatter and
Speaker 1: more uniform. So I think that that pursuit of the
Speaker 1: of the local is more and more special. And when
Speaker 1: you know that you're going to Madrid, are you what
Speaker 1: are you excited about eating in Madrid? Um? It's I
Speaker 1: guess it's the in Madrid. It is the total change
Speaker 1: of tempo and work pattern. So I enjoy that shift
Speaker 1: where the working day is longer and later, and the
Speaker 1: restaurant is nine o'clock, is is early. I mean you're
Speaker 1: lucky if the restaurant is yeah at that time. So um,
Speaker 1: so everything is later, and I enjoy that change of
Speaker 1: pace and they wake up in time to go to work.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm really in love that you can eat
Speaker 1: out at midnight and still get up and go to
Speaker 1: the office. But when you travel, and you do travel,
Speaker 1: you often fly your own plane, don't you. You fly
Speaker 1: and you've been a pilot again your adventure. I remember
Speaker 1: having a friend in those days that was actually flying.
Speaker 1: Planes were so exciting. Remember various places we did, we did,
Speaker 1: we got when I flew a twin Piston Navajo. Remember
Speaker 1: I remember we did. So when you're flying a plane,
Speaker 1: do you eat while you're in the cockpit or do
Speaker 1: you eat before you go? Or do I guess it
Speaker 1: depends on the length of the flight. But do you
Speaker 1: it a certain diet to certain types of food to
Speaker 1: be alert? It's not that long ago that that was
Speaker 1: a lifestyle, but that's changed as flights have got longer,
Speaker 1: and I've tended to take a back seat in the cabin.
Speaker 1: But but when I was immersed in that world, I
Speaker 1: just as I do now as we move as a family,
Speaker 1: just automatically going to the time zone that we're flying into.
Speaker 1: So um so you know, if we arrive at dinner time,
Speaker 1: it's dinner time. We might have been through five or
Speaker 1: six or more our time change. But so just going
Speaker 1: immediately into the tempo of the place that you're arriving at.
Speaker 1: I think that's also a way of life. And you're
Speaker 1: an athlete, when you when you compete in the marathon,
Speaker 1: skiing or or biking, do you have a diet that
Speaker 1: you adhere to, do you have a certain No, just
Speaker 1: enjoy and enjoy everything. Yeah, sometimes to access that's good. Okay,
Speaker 1: So my My last question of food, is you know
Speaker 1: something that you've it's an adventure, if it's family, if
Speaker 1: it's a connection, which you and I certainly have had.
Speaker 1: Food is also comfort. What would be your comfort food?
Speaker 1: I think it's where we started. I think it's pasta
Speaker 1: and pesta. Thank you, Norman with good cheese wine, Pasta, pesta,
Speaker 1: cheese and wine sounds good and friendship. Thank you, Norman.
Speaker 1: Thank you. To visit the online shop of The River Cafe,
Speaker 1: go to shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk.
Speaker 1: River Cafe Table four is a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Adam I Studios. For more podcasts from I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
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