WEBVTT - Ruthie's Table 4: Norman Foster 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.320 Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:17.160 Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Of all the people 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:22.320 I've spoken with on River Cafe Conversations, Norman Foster is 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.960 the person I've known for the longest time. In fact, 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.000 we met in nineteen seventy when I was twenty two. 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.680 We've been through a lot together, bonded by a love 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:39.880 for family, adventure, architecture. Tonight, we're going to have dinner 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.159 with his wonderful wife Elena and his son Eduardo. But 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.120 before we do, Norman and I will talk about our 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.879 love for food and our love for each other. Fantastic. 0:00:55.000 --> 0:01:00.000 Let's talk about my favorite dish in my favorite rest 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:08.800 with my favorite person. Pesto. It's a classic source of Liguria, 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.640 where basil grows on the hills overlooking the Mediterranean under 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.080 the hot sun, and the recipe is trophere with pesto, 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:23.960 which serves six two hundred grams of fresh basil leaves, 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:29.080 a hundred and fifty grams of parmesan, freshly grated, half 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:34.920 a garlic clove, peeled grams of pine nuts, two hundred 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:40.479 millilters of extra virgin olive oil, and three hundred grams 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:45.200 of the pasta. So we put the basil leaves and 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.160 the parmesan, the garlic and the pine nuts into a 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:52.400 food processor, add the extra virgin olive oil, some sea 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.280 salt and black pepper and bind together to make a 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.400 smooth paste. Bring a large part of salted water to 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.120 the boil and cut the trophya for about ten minutes. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.959 Drained the pasta and returned to the pot. Gently stir 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.840 in the pesto, checked the seasoning, and serve with grated parmesan. 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.520 Sounds delicious to have some? Maybe I hope it will 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.360 be on the menu tonight. So I have all the 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.240 recipes and all the books. What made you? She is pesta? 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:30.040 I can't remember when I discovered pasta, but I can 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.880 remember when I discovered pasta and risotto. I was a 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:40.120 student and I had cycled and ended up in Milan, 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:45.840 and I associated rice with rice pudding, which was sweet 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:50.520 and sickly and really for me, not very nice. And 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:55.360 I discovered rice and pasta and it was just a 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.440 great discovery. That was a very very long time ago. 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:02.079 How old were you then, ah, I must have been 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:06.639 in my teens. And then what about when of them 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.720 went to university? When you when you studied architecture, tell 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:15.080 me about that. As a student of architecture, every vacation, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:21.639 after really working to raise funds, I'd be traveling either 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:28.880 to Italy, France, classical architecture, Palladio, an interest in urban spaces, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.680 particularly in Italy, but also trips to Scandinavia, discovering the 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.520 work of Hudson, for example before he won the competition 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.840 for the for the Opera house. And always there's there 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.280 was the constant of the food and the drink of 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.800 the of the area. So I think they were, you know, 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:57.160 simultaneous revelations about design, architecture, food and and really a lifestyle. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.480 I guess, the discovery of of the pleasure and the 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.360 luxury of dining. Is it so interesting to tell me 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.600 about a city that you visited where the architecture and 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:15.240 the food you mentioned literally it is always fantastic, you know, 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.040 the memories are of you know, the places that I 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:25.520 would measure the public spaces, so the main square Campo 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:30.559 in Sienna, August Square in Verona, or the short cut 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:35.279 through the galleria in Miland that connects Las Gala to 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:41.080 the to the cathedral, and always a kind of pavement 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:46.520 cafe and you know, just a great synergy of of 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:52.359 food of public space. I wouldn't wouldn't be calling it 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.680 public space then, but but it was that interest in 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:03.440 urbanity in the city. Yeah. Again, I think is unusual 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.200 because a school of architecture is much more about about 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.600 the design of individual buildings and not the infrastructure of 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:16.200 a city. But it's the infrastructure of public spaces that 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.040 makes you know, it's a look out of the window here, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.200 it's your your green space, which is the focus. Um 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.560 that's much more than you know as a symbol of 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:33.360 the river cafe than the indoor space. That's much more 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:37.800 powerful identity and the water. So it's this little quarter 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.719 that's kind of like a city in microcosm. Tell me 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.320 about going to Yale and meeting Richard. Well, I'm met 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.560 Richard at a full bright reception and I remember that 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:56.599 he was heavily bandage from a ski accident. And and 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.320 then the next time, of course, was the beginning of 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.920 the master's class in Yale, which must have been ninetie 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.679 and the school started the first day of term, and 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.600 the School of Architecture closed its premises on the last day, 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.640 so it was a twenty four hour school and the 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:26.080 Dean Paul Rudolph was quite a character and drove everybody 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.840 very hard. And they were always so called charettes where 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.479 you would burn the midnight oil. And I remember that 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.960 the only place that was open all night was a 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:42.360 cafe called My Brothers, I think it was, yes, and 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:47.640 we'd be we'd be there sometimes in the middle of 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:55.000 the night and and discovering American American food like pastronomy sandwiches, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:07:00.440 and then I remember it being fantastic that you also 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.840 Richard often spoke about going to the Fourth Seasons. Oh yes, 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.960 the Four Seasons restaurant at the base of the Seagram building, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:15.600 which was Miss vander Rose still enduring bronze early classic skyscraper. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.720 Must have been the late nineteen fifties, I guess, and 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.840 the base of that building was the restaurant that Philip 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:28.280 Johnson and he did together with this extraordinary sculpture over 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:32.080 the bar, and originally the rockco paintings in the pool 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:38.080 room sadly long gone, the pool in the center. Absolutely 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:45.320 classic restaurant, I mean, breathtaking interior and I remember really 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.280 very classic menu and that was I mean to go 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.000 there for a drink on an excursion to New York 0:07:55.120 --> 0:08:00.000 with Richard with Jim Sterling or whatever. And I remember 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:07.600 Jim surreptitiously pulling the ashtray and sliding it into his 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:13.680 the kind of pocket of his coat. And at the 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.200 end of the drinks, when he was given the bill, 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.520 the waiter said, oh, by the way, this figure here, 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:31.280 that's the cost of the extra. But that was That 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.280 was quite a treat to That was a perfect melding 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:42.600 of architecture and incredible marriage of just a great space, 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:48.640 amazing taste, classic furniture. I remember Philip had his office 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.480 in the in the sugrum, and he could have his 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:57.040 the table of his regular table in the corner and 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.200 hold forth hold court. That was he teaching at Yale. 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.200 Did you know him? He was a visiting critic. A 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.600 great thing about Paul Rudolph You would bring together people 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.480 who would not necessarily see eye to eye with his 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:15.800 architecture the other way around, Um, but consciously bringing descent 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.160 to bear on you know, those of us who were 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.920 who were students at that time, we were real beneficiaries 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.160 of that. I mean, it was an incredible combination because 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.720 you had Paul Rudolph Um and for the second half, 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.199 Serge Shamayah, the European Russian sort of emigrant. You had 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.920 Vincent Scully as the historian, and coming at it from 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.319 those different angles we were. We were very privileged and 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:47.280 also interesting that that Philip Johnson invited students, you know, 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.680 to come and have lunch at the fourth seasons sometimes yes, yes, 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:57.480 and and I remember one amazing crit and the crit 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:02.400 was a theatrical event. When you presented your design one 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.560 after the other and you had the the whole school 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.000 would crowd into the room and there was a sense 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.720 of anticipation and theater. I mean, it was a little 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.920 bit like the arena, you know, with a bear pit. 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.960 And I remember Richard and I did a scheme together 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.000 that was pretty controversial because it hadn't happened before, the 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.200 idea of two people coming together to do a joint presentation. 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:31.680 And in the middle of it, Philip said something like, well, 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.360 this model is great, but I don't know what these 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.360 buildings are doing in the middle of this spine. I 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.440 really think they should come off. And he grabbed the model. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.960 He grabbed the offending buildings in the middle of this 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.640 circulation spine with the zigga outside the side of it 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.000 and through it through and Paul Rudolph said, you're so right. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.080 I've been telling the two of them, but they never listened, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.560 remember saying afterwards, and actually they were both right, Yes 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.199 they were right, but it was there. It was like 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:13.000 a real cut on trust and good times. But when 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.479 you think of theater when you go to a restaurant, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.400 do you look for the drama of a restaurant? Do 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.760 you choose restaurants or so what do you look? Think 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.719 we're attracted to being together and in a way that 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.920 again the pandemic has has magnified that and made us 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.680 realized the privilege and the luxury are being able to 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.679 come together. So it is the atmosphere of a communality 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:42.319 of people having a shared sense of of occasion and 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.520 that can be That can be very modest cafes, b 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.080 stros where you might be sitting on a bench or 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.800 just under you know, the shade of a tree. I 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:56.160 mean it sounds corny and romantic, but um, but you 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:10.120 know genuine places. So early life, tell me about Manchester. 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.840 Did your mother cook? Your father cooked? My mother cook? 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.640 But it was the classic baked beans on toast, or 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.240 it would be fish and chips from a fish and 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:27.520 chip shop. It would be a roast on Sunday's. Sunday's 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.480 was a special day and I'd go around to the 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:35.160 corner shop to get mustard powder and I remember making 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.360 that to go with the with the beef. That was 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:39.800 that was a special day. Did you make it or 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.360 did your mom? My mother? Your mother did? Was she 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.920 working full time? Was? What do you think? Food was 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.720 something you put on the table? Later she worked, but 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:54.480 at that time, my father, I think this was a 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:59.439 time during the during the war and rationing and so 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:06.160 far far removed. Yeah, I was saying that. I out 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.280 with Paul McCartney, who probably is the same generation, and 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.680 he described growing up in Liverpool and very much the 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.640 same kind of food, which is, you know, came out 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.560 of the war, It came out of poverty, it came 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.800 out of isolation. As you say, yes, I can. I 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:29.520 can remember my my mother discovering dried eggs which came 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.679 from America and you whipped them with this powder, this 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:40.640 bright yellow powder in a brown greaseproof package, and and 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.839 fruit were scarce. I mean if you got a tangerine, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.400 that was a real treat, I mean, very very special. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.040 And I remember when the after the war when the 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:59.199 shops opened Inqueues for sweets. Sweets were like a rare delicacy. 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.600 And remember Hershey bars, where it somehow found their way through, 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.599 you know, through children and friends of g I s 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.040 who were stationed nearby. Were you hungry, No, I don't think. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:18.560 I never remember being hungry. So I think that rather 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:24.480 like Paul that you're describing, I think one maintains an 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:31.160 appreciation of of large if because it was also out 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:36.280 of very you know, desperate conditions of you know, a 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.000 fashioning of the war. I remember the Russian book as 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.960 if it was Yes, what was it like? It was 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:48.600 Kopen's was a government document. It's a powerful image and 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.080 really quite symbolic. Yeah. And when you were growing up, 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.440 were you interested you think, even though you were deprived 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.000 of the of the kind of exciting food from the can, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.280 did you think about it? Did you think that food 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.920 could taste a than the Remember a bike ride which 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.880 was I must have been sixteen, and I was with 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:14.040 a friend and this was the first time out of Manchester. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.600 And it wasn't just out of Manchester, it was taking 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.200 a train to London, crossing the Channel, and I remember 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.520 the first meal in France It was in a very 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:30.760 humble cafe and I remember this friend and myself automatically 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.080 as a reaction we were served dinner and asking for 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.560 the salt and pepper, because that was a ritualistic you know, 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:43.320 whenever food was served, you automatically sprayed it with salt 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.160 and pepper. It was and I remember the look of 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:54.120 absolute horror the proprietor serving the food. We have already 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:59.480 added and that was interestingly, that was a turning point. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.120 When do you think that you really discovered what food 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.320 could be on that trip and then did you continue, yes, 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.400 subsequent trips and perhaps also a taste for more exotic 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.400 food because as a student in Manchester, I remember the 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:20.080 only affordable food which was which was interesting was Indian food. 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.880 So I was a student at Manchester. It was really 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.840 side street Indian. Again, quite humble Indian restaurants, but good food. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.960 Would you ever go out with your parents for a 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:36.280 meal or was that really Yeah? I remember going to 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.240 a coffee shop in Manchester which was called the Cardoma 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.480 and was very dark wood and kind of modernist curves. 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.600 That was a rare occasion to take a tram or 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.520 a trolleybus into central Manchester and that was. That was 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.120 a very special treat. So it was before architecture school. Oh, yes, 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:02.160 that was way before I was really discovering. Yeah, you 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:08.080 sought out a coffee shop that was beautiful architecture, very 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:12.240 very strong and touching memories of that, Yes, going that? 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.440 Did you go often? What was it a special once 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.360 in a blue moon? As when you couldn't eat out 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.440 or afford restaurants and you wanted to eat as? Did 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.879 you learn to cook? Did you decide if I can't 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.000 afford to eat out, I'm going to try to eat No. 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:33.359 I mean, Elena will reminisce about the only time that 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:40.239 I made a meal was spaghetti and pesto. But I 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.720 think that was such an exception that it's been imprinted 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.160 on her memory. But I remember, and I was so 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.359 happy when you chose pesto, because I do remember, and 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.720 it probably was it was a contrabasset in Wiltshire And 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:57.440 so what did that have been in the early eight 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:04.160 in the kitchen and yeah, I counted the league. Yes, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.879 I came down and I said, Nor, what are you doing? 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:12.439 And you were going n seven hundred and he said, well, 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.880 I found a recipe that requires um, you know sort 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:22.119 of twenty basil leaves for pesto. But we're eight people, 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.720 so I have to count down a hundred and sixty 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.119 sixty leaves of basil. I said, okay, we also could 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.920 possibly weigh ten leaves and then multiply it. But we 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.920 sat there and the two of us, you know, and 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.400 I thought, this is a man who really cares about, 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.960 you know, the end result, getting it right. And then 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.159 I remember once also in your your house on the 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.399 in the penthouse and overlooking at the river, we were 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.080 talking about I think you were helping me with what 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.639 how to design in the River Cafe cookbook, and I 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.320 came over to see you and we were talking about it, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.600 and and then we decided to cook a recipe together, 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.040 and I could really see you in the kitchen, and 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.760 I don't I wonder why you don't cook more, because 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:24.600 there maybe that's another life, still, maybe living hope. Very 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.199 often they'll say that a city has a great food culture, 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.600 and that's because a lot of restaurants have just opened 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.359 and there's a lot of young chefs working there and 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.800 people are going to restaurants. But I think that and 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.439 I wonder if you agree that if you go to 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.240 a city like Paris, or you go to Milan, the 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.440 taxi driver can tell you how to cook at sea 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.439 bass and the boulangerie will not sell bread, you know, 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:48.480 after eleven o'clock for lunch, and then you have to 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:50.919 go back and fourth for dinner. And that seems like 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.639 a deep culture of There are wonderful places in Spain 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.119 where the food is really a cult and it's a 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.960 very male. Tell me about what do you mean. I'm 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:07.960 just thinking of parts of northern Spain where that gastronomic 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:14.320 tradition really permeates society and everybody is you know, lives 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.720 it as a as as a way of life. But 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:22.119 you're absolutely right about the the taxi driver. And I 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:27.760 always remember you and it totally told me about a 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.359 taxi driver in Paris where he was saying, you know 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.840 something like I lived to eat. And I always remember 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:43.160 your your quotation on that. And I think when you're 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:48.359 in Um, in some moretts, when you're in in Martha's vineyards, 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.960 when you're in Madrid, do you always have the food 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:56.280 of that culture? Absolutely? Yes, I think we enjoy the differences, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:02.480 we enjoy the What is special about a location, a place, um, 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.040 a quarter in a in a city or a street, 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.600 or a particular shop or a specialty. I think that 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:16.760 becomes increasingly more significant as the world gets flatter and 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.000 more uniform. So I think that that pursuit of the 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.640 of the local is more and more special. And when 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:27.320 you know that you're going to Madrid, are you what 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:33.960 are you excited about eating in Madrid? Um? It's I 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:39.760 guess it's the in Madrid. It is the total change 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:47.159 of tempo and work pattern. So I enjoy that shift 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:53.040 where the working day is longer and later, and the 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:58.520 restaurant is nine o'clock, is is early. I mean you're 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.879 lucky if the restaurant is yeah at that time. So um, 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.399 so everything is later, and I enjoy that change of 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.320 pace and they wake up in time to go to work. 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.800 That's what I'm really in love that you can eat 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:13.720 out at midnight and still get up and go to 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.119 the office. But when you travel, and you do travel, 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.000 you often fly your own plane, don't you. You fly 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.160 and you've been a pilot again your adventure. I remember 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.399 having a friend in those days that was actually flying. 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:33.040 Planes were so exciting. Remember various places we did, we did, 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:40.280 we got when I flew a twin Piston Navajo. Remember 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.280 I remember we did. So when you're flying a plane, 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.919 do you eat while you're in the cockpit or do 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.399 you eat before you go? Or do I guess it 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:52.639 depends on the length of the flight. But do you 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.159 it a certain diet to certain types of food to 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.040 be alert? It's not that long ago that that was 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:03.360 a lifestyle, but that's changed as flights have got longer, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.440 and I've tended to take a back seat in the cabin. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:14.199 But but when I was immersed in that world, I 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:19.200 just as I do now as we move as a family, 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:23.520 just automatically going to the time zone that we're flying into. 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.240 So um so you know, if we arrive at dinner time, 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.520 it's dinner time. We might have been through five or 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:35.359 six or more our time change. But so just going 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:40.400 immediately into the tempo of the place that you're arriving at. 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:44.320 I think that's also a way of life. And you're 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.800 an athlete, when you when you compete in the marathon, 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.199 skiing or or biking, do you have a diet that 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.280 you adhere to, do you have a certain No, just 0:23:55.640 --> 0:24:02.399 enjoy and enjoy everything. Yeah, sometimes to access that's good. Okay, 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.959 So my My last question of food, is you know 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.360 something that you've it's an adventure, if it's family, if 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.440 it's a connection, which you and I certainly have had. 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:16.879 Food is also comfort. What would be your comfort food? 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:22.040 I think it's where we started. I think it's pasta 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:29.920 and pesta. Thank you, Norman with good cheese wine, Pasta, pesta, 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.439 cheese and wine sounds good and friendship. Thank you, Norman. 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:40.840 Thank you. To visit the online shop of The River Cafe, 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:45.000 go to shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.680 River Cafe Table four is a production of I Heart 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.720 Radio and Adam I Studios. For more podcasts from I 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.400 Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:00.480 or wherever you listen to your favor rit shows.