1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. Of all the people 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: I've spoken with on River Cafe Conversations, Norman Foster is 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: the person I've known for the longest time. In fact, 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: we met in nineteen seventy when I was twenty two. 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: We've been through a lot together, bonded by a love 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: for family, adventure, architecture. Tonight, we're going to have dinner 8 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: with his wonderful wife Elena and his son Eduardo. But 9 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: before we do, Norman and I will talk about our 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: love for food and our love for each other. Fantastic. 11 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: Let's talk about my favorite dish in my favorite rest 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: with my favorite person. Pesto. It's a classic source of Liguria, 13 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: where basil grows on the hills overlooking the Mediterranean under 14 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: the hot sun, and the recipe is trophere with pesto, 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: which serves six two hundred grams of fresh basil leaves, 16 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty grams of parmesan, freshly grated, half 17 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: a garlic clove, peeled grams of pine nuts, two hundred 18 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: millilters of extra virgin olive oil, and three hundred grams 19 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: of the pasta. So we put the basil leaves and 20 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: the parmesan, the garlic and the pine nuts into a 21 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: food processor, add the extra virgin olive oil, some sea 22 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: salt and black pepper and bind together to make a 23 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: smooth paste. Bring a large part of salted water to 24 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: the boil and cut the trophya for about ten minutes. 25 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: Drained the pasta and returned to the pot. Gently stir 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: in the pesto, checked the seasoning, and serve with grated parmesan. 27 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: Sounds delicious to have some? Maybe I hope it will 28 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: be on the menu tonight. So I have all the 29 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: recipes and all the books. What made you? She is pesta? 30 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: I can't remember when I discovered pasta, but I can 31 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: remember when I discovered pasta and risotto. I was a 32 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: student and I had cycled and ended up in Milan, 33 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: and I associated rice with rice pudding, which was sweet 34 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: and sickly and really for me, not very nice. And 35 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: I discovered rice and pasta and it was just a 36 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: great discovery. That was a very very long time ago. 37 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: How old were you then, ah, I must have been 38 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: in my teens. And then what about when of them 39 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: went to university? When you when you studied architecture, tell 40 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: me about that. As a student of architecture, every vacation, 41 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: after really working to raise funds, I'd be traveling either 42 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: to Italy, France, classical architecture, Palladio, an interest in urban spaces, 43 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: particularly in Italy, but also trips to Scandinavia, discovering the 44 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: work of Hudson, for example before he won the competition 45 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: for the for the Opera house. And always there's there 46 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: was the constant of the food and the drink of 47 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: the of the area. So I think they were, you know, 48 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: simultaneous revelations about design, architecture, food and and really a lifestyle. 49 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: I guess, the discovery of of the pleasure and the 50 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: luxury of dining. Is it so interesting to tell me 51 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: about a city that you visited where the architecture and 52 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: the food you mentioned literally it is always fantastic, you know, 53 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: the memories are of you know, the places that I 54 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: would measure the public spaces, so the main square Campo 55 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,559 Speaker 1: in Sienna, August Square in Verona, or the short cut 56 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: through the galleria in Miland that connects Las Gala to 57 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: the to the cathedral, and always a kind of pavement 58 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: cafe and you know, just a great synergy of of 59 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: food of public space. I wouldn't wouldn't be calling it 60 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: public space then, but but it was that interest in 61 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: urbanity in the city. Yeah. Again, I think is unusual 62 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: because a school of architecture is much more about about 63 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: the design of individual buildings and not the infrastructure of 64 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: a city. But it's the infrastructure of public spaces that 65 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: makes you know, it's a look out of the window here, 66 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: it's your your green space, which is the focus. Um 67 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: that's much more than you know as a symbol of 68 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: the river cafe than the indoor space. That's much more 69 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: powerful identity and the water. So it's this little quarter 70 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: that's kind of like a city in microcosm. Tell me 71 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: about going to Yale and meeting Richard. Well, I'm met 72 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: Richard at a full bright reception and I remember that 73 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: he was heavily bandage from a ski accident. And and 74 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: then the next time, of course, was the beginning of 75 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: the master's class in Yale, which must have been ninetie 76 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 1: and the school started the first day of term, and 77 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: the School of Architecture closed its premises on the last day, 78 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: so it was a twenty four hour school and the 79 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: Dean Paul Rudolph was quite a character and drove everybody 80 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: very hard. And they were always so called charettes where 81 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: you would burn the midnight oil. And I remember that 82 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: the only place that was open all night was a 83 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: cafe called My Brothers, I think it was, yes, and 84 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: we'd be we'd be there sometimes in the middle of 85 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: the night and and discovering American American food like pastronomy sandwiches, 86 00:06:55,200 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: and then I remember it being fantastic that you also 87 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: Richard often spoke about going to the Fourth Seasons. Oh yes, 88 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: the Four Seasons restaurant at the base of the Seagram building, 89 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: which was Miss vander Rose still enduring bronze early classic skyscraper. 90 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: Must have been the late nineteen fifties, I guess, and 91 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: the base of that building was the restaurant that Philip 92 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: Johnson and he did together with this extraordinary sculpture over 93 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: the bar, and originally the rockco paintings in the pool 94 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: room sadly long gone, the pool in the center. Absolutely 95 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: classic restaurant, I mean, breathtaking interior and I remember really 96 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: very classic menu and that was I mean to go 97 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: there for a drink on an excursion to New York 98 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: with Richard with Jim Sterling or whatever. And I remember 99 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: Jim surreptitiously pulling the ashtray and sliding it into his 100 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: the kind of pocket of his coat. And at the 101 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: end of the drinks, when he was given the bill, 102 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: the waiter said, oh, by the way, this figure here, 103 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: that's the cost of the extra. But that was That 104 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: was quite a treat to That was a perfect melding 105 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: of architecture and incredible marriage of just a great space, 106 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: amazing taste, classic furniture. I remember Philip had his office 107 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: in the in the sugrum, and he could have his 108 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: the table of his regular table in the corner and 109 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: hold forth hold court. That was he teaching at Yale. 110 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: Did you know him? He was a visiting critic. A 111 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: great thing about Paul Rudolph You would bring together people 112 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: who would not necessarily see eye to eye with his 113 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: architecture the other way around, Um, but consciously bringing descent 114 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: to bear on you know, those of us who were 115 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: who were students at that time, we were real beneficiaries 116 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, it was an incredible combination because 117 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: you had Paul Rudolph Um and for the second half, 118 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: Serge Shamayah, the European Russian sort of emigrant. You had 119 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: Vincent Scully as the historian, and coming at it from 120 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: those different angles we were. We were very privileged and 121 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: also interesting that that Philip Johnson invited students, you know, 122 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: to come and have lunch at the fourth seasons sometimes yes, yes, 123 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: and and I remember one amazing crit and the crit 124 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: was a theatrical event. When you presented your design one 125 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: after the other and you had the the whole school 126 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: would crowd into the room and there was a sense 127 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: of anticipation and theater. I mean, it was a little 128 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: bit like the arena, you know, with a bear pit. 129 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: And I remember Richard and I did a scheme together 130 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: that was pretty controversial because it hadn't happened before, the 131 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: idea of two people coming together to do a joint presentation. 132 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: And in the middle of it, Philip said something like, well, 133 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: this model is great, but I don't know what these 134 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: buildings are doing in the middle of this spine. I 135 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: really think they should come off. And he grabbed the model. 136 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: He grabbed the offending buildings in the middle of this 137 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: circulation spine with the zigga outside the side of it 138 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: and through it through and Paul Rudolph said, you're so right. 139 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: I've been telling the two of them, but they never listened, 140 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: remember saying afterwards, and actually they were both right, Yes 141 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: they were right, but it was there. It was like 142 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: a real cut on trust and good times. But when 143 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,479 Speaker 1: you think of theater when you go to a restaurant, 144 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: do you look for the drama of a restaurant? Do 145 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: you choose restaurants or so what do you look? Think 146 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: we're attracted to being together and in a way that 147 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: again the pandemic has has magnified that and made us 148 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: realized the privilege and the luxury are being able to 149 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: come together. So it is the atmosphere of a communality 150 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: of people having a shared sense of of occasion and 151 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: that can be That can be very modest cafes, b 152 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: stros where you might be sitting on a bench or 153 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: just under you know, the shade of a tree. I 154 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: mean it sounds corny and romantic, but um, but you 155 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: know genuine places. So early life, tell me about Manchester. 156 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: Did your mother cook? Your father cooked? My mother cook? 157 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: But it was the classic baked beans on toast, or 158 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: it would be fish and chips from a fish and 159 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: chip shop. It would be a roast on Sunday's. Sunday's 160 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: was a special day and I'd go around to the 161 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: corner shop to get mustard powder and I remember making 162 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: that to go with the with the beef. That was 163 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: that was a special day. Did you make it or 164 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: did your mom? My mother? Your mother did? Was she 165 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: working full time? Was? What do you think? Food was 166 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: something you put on the table? Later she worked, but 167 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: at that time, my father, I think this was a 168 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: time during the during the war and rationing and so 169 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: far far removed. Yeah, I was saying that. I out 170 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: with Paul McCartney, who probably is the same generation, and 171 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: he described growing up in Liverpool and very much the 172 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: same kind of food, which is, you know, came out 173 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: of the war, It came out of poverty, it came 174 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: out of isolation. As you say, yes, I can. I 175 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: can remember my my mother discovering dried eggs which came 176 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: from America and you whipped them with this powder, this 177 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: bright yellow powder in a brown greaseproof package, and and 178 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: fruit were scarce. I mean if you got a tangerine, 179 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: that was a real treat, I mean, very very special. 180 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: And I remember when the after the war when the 181 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: shops opened Inqueues for sweets. Sweets were like a rare delicacy. 182 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: And remember Hershey bars, where it somehow found their way through, 183 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,599 Speaker 1: you know, through children and friends of g I s 184 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: who were stationed nearby. Were you hungry, No, I don't think. 185 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: I never remember being hungry. So I think that rather 186 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: like Paul that you're describing, I think one maintains an 187 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: appreciation of of large if because it was also out 188 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: of very you know, desperate conditions of you know, a 189 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: fashioning of the war. I remember the Russian book as 190 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: if it was Yes, what was it like? It was 191 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: Kopen's was a government document. It's a powerful image and 192 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: really quite symbolic. Yeah. And when you were growing up, 193 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: were you interested you think, even though you were deprived 194 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: of the of the kind of exciting food from the can, 195 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: did you think about it? Did you think that food 196 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: could taste a than the Remember a bike ride which 197 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: was I must have been sixteen, and I was with 198 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: a friend and this was the first time out of Manchester. 199 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just out of Manchester, it was taking 200 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: a train to London, crossing the Channel, and I remember 201 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: the first meal in France It was in a very 202 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: humble cafe and I remember this friend and myself automatically 203 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: as a reaction we were served dinner and asking for 204 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: the salt and pepper, because that was a ritualistic you know, 205 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: whenever food was served, you automatically sprayed it with salt 206 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: and pepper. It was and I remember the look of 207 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: absolute horror the proprietor serving the food. We have already 208 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: added and that was interestingly, that was a turning point. 209 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: When do you think that you really discovered what food 210 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: could be on that trip and then did you continue, yes, 211 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: subsequent trips and perhaps also a taste for more exotic 212 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: food because as a student in Manchester, I remember the 213 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: only affordable food which was which was interesting was Indian food. 214 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: So I was a student at Manchester. It was really 215 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: side street Indian. Again, quite humble Indian restaurants, but good food. 216 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: Would you ever go out with your parents for a 217 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: meal or was that really Yeah? I remember going to 218 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: a coffee shop in Manchester which was called the Cardoma 219 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: and was very dark wood and kind of modernist curves. 220 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: That was a rare occasion to take a tram or 221 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: a trolleybus into central Manchester and that was. That was 222 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: a very special treat. So it was before architecture school. Oh, yes, 223 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: that was way before I was really discovering. Yeah, you 224 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: sought out a coffee shop that was beautiful architecture, very 225 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: very strong and touching memories of that, Yes, going that? 226 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: Did you go often? What was it a special once 227 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: in a blue moon? As when you couldn't eat out 228 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: or afford restaurants and you wanted to eat as? Did 229 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: you learn to cook? Did you decide if I can't 230 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: afford to eat out, I'm going to try to eat No. 231 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: I mean, Elena will reminisce about the only time that 232 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 1: I made a meal was spaghetti and pesto. But I 233 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: think that was such an exception that it's been imprinted 234 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: on her memory. But I remember, and I was so 235 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: happy when you chose pesto, because I do remember, and 236 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: it probably was it was a contrabasset in Wiltshire And 237 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: so what did that have been in the early eight 238 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and yeah, I counted the league. Yes, 239 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: I came down and I said, Nor, what are you doing? 240 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: And you were going n seven hundred and he said, well, 241 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: I found a recipe that requires um, you know sort 242 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: of twenty basil leaves for pesto. But we're eight people, 243 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: so I have to count down a hundred and sixty 244 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: sixty leaves of basil. I said, okay, we also could 245 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: possibly weigh ten leaves and then multiply it. But we 246 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: sat there and the two of us, you know, and 247 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: I thought, this is a man who really cares about, 248 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, the end result, getting it right. And then 249 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: I remember once also in your your house on the 250 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: in the penthouse and overlooking at the river, we were 251 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: talking about I think you were helping me with what 252 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: how to design in the River Cafe cookbook, and I 253 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: came over to see you and we were talking about it, 254 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: and and then we decided to cook a recipe together, 255 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: and I could really see you in the kitchen, and 256 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: I don't I wonder why you don't cook more, because 257 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: there maybe that's another life, still, maybe living hope. Very 258 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: often they'll say that a city has a great food culture, 259 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: and that's because a lot of restaurants have just opened 260 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of young chefs working there and 261 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: people are going to restaurants. But I think that and 262 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: I wonder if you agree that if you go to 263 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: a city like Paris, or you go to Milan, the 264 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: taxi driver can tell you how to cook at sea 265 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: bass and the boulangerie will not sell bread, you know, 266 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: after eleven o'clock for lunch, and then you have to 267 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: go back and fourth for dinner. And that seems like 268 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: a deep culture of There are wonderful places in Spain 269 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: where the food is really a cult and it's a 270 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: very male. Tell me about what do you mean. I'm 271 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: just thinking of parts of northern Spain where that gastronomic 272 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: tradition really permeates society and everybody is you know, lives 273 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: it as a as as a way of life. But 274 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right about the the taxi driver. And I 275 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: always remember you and it totally told me about a 276 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: taxi driver in Paris where he was saying, you know 277 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: something like I lived to eat. And I always remember 278 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: your your quotation on that. And I think when you're 279 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: in Um, in some moretts, when you're in in Martha's vineyards, 280 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: when you're in Madrid, do you always have the food 281 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: of that culture? Absolutely? Yes, I think we enjoy the differences, 282 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: we enjoy the What is special about a location, a place, um, 283 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: a quarter in a in a city or a street, 284 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: or a particular shop or a specialty. I think that 285 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: becomes increasingly more significant as the world gets flatter and 286 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: more uniform. So I think that that pursuit of the 287 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: of the local is more and more special. And when 288 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: you know that you're going to Madrid, are you what 289 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: are you excited about eating in Madrid? Um? It's I 290 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: guess it's the in Madrid. It is the total change 291 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: of tempo and work pattern. So I enjoy that shift 292 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: where the working day is longer and later, and the 293 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: restaurant is nine o'clock, is is early. I mean you're 294 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: lucky if the restaurant is yeah at that time. So um, 295 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: so everything is later, and I enjoy that change of 296 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: pace and they wake up in time to go to work. 297 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: That's what I'm really in love that you can eat 298 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: out at midnight and still get up and go to 299 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: the office. But when you travel, and you do travel, 300 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: you often fly your own plane, don't you. You fly 301 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: and you've been a pilot again your adventure. I remember 302 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: having a friend in those days that was actually flying. 303 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: Planes were so exciting. Remember various places we did, we did, 304 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: we got when I flew a twin Piston Navajo. Remember 305 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: I remember we did. So when you're flying a plane, 306 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: do you eat while you're in the cockpit or do 307 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: you eat before you go? Or do I guess it 308 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: depends on the length of the flight. But do you 309 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: it a certain diet to certain types of food to 310 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: be alert? It's not that long ago that that was 311 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: a lifestyle, but that's changed as flights have got longer, 312 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: and I've tended to take a back seat in the cabin. 313 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: But but when I was immersed in that world, I 314 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: just as I do now as we move as a family, 315 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: just automatically going to the time zone that we're flying into. 316 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: So um so you know, if we arrive at dinner time, 317 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: it's dinner time. We might have been through five or 318 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: six or more our time change. But so just going 319 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: immediately into the tempo of the place that you're arriving at. 320 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: I think that's also a way of life. And you're 321 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: an athlete, when you when you compete in the marathon, 322 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: skiing or or biking, do you have a diet that 323 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: you adhere to, do you have a certain No, just 324 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: enjoy and enjoy everything. Yeah, sometimes to access that's good. Okay, 325 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: So my My last question of food, is you know 326 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: something that you've it's an adventure, if it's family, if 327 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: it's a connection, which you and I certainly have had. 328 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: Food is also comfort. What would be your comfort food? 329 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: I think it's where we started. I think it's pasta 330 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: and pesta. Thank you, Norman with good cheese wine, Pasta, pesta, 331 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: cheese and wine sounds good and friendship. Thank you, Norman. 332 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: Thank you. To visit the online shop of The River Cafe, 333 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: go to shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. 334 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: River Cafe Table four is a production of I Heart 335 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: Radio and Adam I Studios. For more podcasts from I 336 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 337 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favor rit shows.