1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. I'm desperately trying to finish these songs 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: before the first show. Just on a whim, I was 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: in my car and I'm like, you know, let me 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: listen to a songwriting podcast and see what someone who 5 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: I don't know has to say about songwriting. The guy 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: was saying that if you if you write a song 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: at twenty minutes, chances are it's not very good and 8 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: no one's ever going to hear it. And yeah, I 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: wrote set Me for You in twenty minutes. It just 10 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: came out of the clear blue. 11 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, an audio diary 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: of insightful conversations with music insiders. A miss episode Buzznight 13 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: Talks with Cassim Sultan, bass guitarist, writer, keyboardist and vocalist. 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: Best known for his work with Todd Runggren and Utopia, 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: Cassim continues to have a distinguished career over four decades, 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: and chances are music he's been involved in is part 17 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: of a daily playlist in Your Life. To date, Sultan 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: has played and sung on albums that have sold more 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: than eighty five million copies. He's toured with Hall and Oates, 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: Chief Trick and Joan Jet along with the late Meat Loaf. 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: Let's join Buzz Night next with Cassim Sulton. 22 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: Well, let's enter our virtual Taking a Walk studio and 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 3: special guests. Please enter and sign in. 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Please Hi everyone. I'm Cassam Sultan, multi instrumentalist, singer, songwriter, dad, grandfather, widow. 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: I'm carpenter sometimes lawnmower, dishwasher, chief cook and bottle washer. 26 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: I love it. 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: It's so nice to see you again, albeit virtually. You bud, 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: It's good to see you now. 29 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: When you're in a recording process, writing process. Do you 30 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: ever get stuck and literally break yourself free by going 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: for a walk? 32 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: I actually I go for a drive, and uh I 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: used to do that quite often. Now I take my 34 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: dog for a walk, and uh sometimes that helps. Most 35 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: of the time, it's more about just just being diligent 36 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: and trying to force, uh force through a writer's block, 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: you know which I I'm not and I'm not and 38 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: never have been a very prolific songwriter. I kind of, 39 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, I pain over my uh my work, and 40 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times people say, you know you're you're 41 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: sacrificing uh uh product for perfection and uh, but you know, 42 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: everyone is different. 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: But somebody told me you wrote the hit song set 44 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: Me Free in twenty minutes? 45 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: Is that true? Yeah? You know, it's really funny too, 46 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: because I was going somewhere. I had to go to 47 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: an event in the Bronx. List I live on Staten 48 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: Island and I had to go to the Bronx and 49 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: I was looking for and we could talk about this 50 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: in a minute, but I'm about to go on tour 51 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: with The Fix. I'm opening for them on their North 52 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: American tour coming up in November, and I have a 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: couple of new songs that I want to debut during 54 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: my opening set because it's just me solo acoustic, and 55 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: so I'm desperately trying to finish these songs before the 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: first show. And just on a whim, I was in 57 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: my car and I'm like, you know, let me listen 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: to a songwriting podcast and see what someone who I 59 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: don't know has to say about songwriting. And this guy 60 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: was saying, I'm not going to mention the podcast, but 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: the guy was saying that if you could, if you 62 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: write a song in twenty minutes, chances are it's not 63 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: very good and no one's ever going to hear it. 64 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, I wrote set Me for You in twenty minutes, 65 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: all but the bridge. It just came. I'm out of 66 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: the clear Blue. And it was at a particularly difficult 67 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: time in my career. I was signed to Bearsville Records 68 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: as a recording as a solo recording artist. I desperately 69 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: wanted to do a solo album and Albert Grossman didn't 70 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: feel that my material was ready yet, that I still 71 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: had some growing to do as a songwriter, and he 72 00:04:53,360 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: didn't want to didn't want to let me have a album. 73 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: I'll record a solo album and and my attitude was 74 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: looked then fine, Then then let me go somewhere else. 75 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: Let me find another record label that's willing to put 76 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: a record out for me. And he said, okay, that's fine. 77 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: You owe me X amount of dollars and ten percent 78 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: of any future royalties you have on your first record. 79 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: And I just thought that that was just, you know, 80 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible thing. It's business, you know, that's that's 81 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: the business that we have chosen. And that's why I 82 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: wrote set Me Free to get out of a record contract. 83 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 3: What was that like dealing with Albert Grossman and did 84 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 3: you sort of get intertwined by the nature of that 85 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: relationship somehow inside the Bob Dylan and band camp at all. 86 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: You know, Albert, Albert was a fascinating guy. It was 87 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: really really a really very interesting man, you know. I 88 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: mean the history of between him and Bob Dylan and 89 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: Janice Joplin and the band and Jesse Winchester and countless 90 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: other acts, and the fact that he had been around 91 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: since the very early sixties. You know, it was you 92 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: were kind of in awe being in his presence because 93 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: he was certainly a force to be reckoned with. But 94 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: he never really my My dealings with Albert were strictly 95 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: on on a solo basis and through Utopia, and Albert 96 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: never really uh, he never liked the fact that Todd 97 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: had a band that took him away from his work 98 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: with his solo work. So he Albert was always begrudgingly 99 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: accept accepting of Utopia because it was Todd's you know, 100 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: that was Todd's little side project. And again, Albert would 101 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: have been fine if Todd never had a band in 102 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 1: terms of something or a project that took him away 103 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: from his solo albums, but Todd always had. It was 104 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: always separate. It was always Utopia. Was Utopia and todd 105 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: Solo was Todd Solo. 106 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, I think I saw that Roger Powell from 107 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 3: Utopia he said that Bearsville wished that Utopia had never existed. 108 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: Is that true? Yeah, I mean that's basically what I 109 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: just said. You know, Albert didn't he did not think 110 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: that Utopia was was anything that that had any legs. 111 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: He just thought that it was a distraction from from 112 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: todd solo material, which was a lot more successful than 113 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: than Utopia. 114 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: Was that a motivation for you guys? 115 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: No, I don't think it was a motivation. I don't 116 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: think we thought of it either way. If anything, it 117 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: was it was disappointing. You know, we were always disappointed 118 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: that that Bearsville didn't take Utopia more seriously. But you know, 119 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: we just we, you know, soldiered on and did our 120 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: tours and did our records, and you know, I have 121 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: a I have a letter up in my music room 122 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: that from Albert to the band about one of the 123 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: records that we did, in his saying that he doesn't 124 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: think it's it's going to be a very uh a 125 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: commercial success. So therefore Bearswel doesn't want to put it out. 126 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: He doesn't like the way it sounds. He doesn't like 127 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: the songs and uh, he basically turned the record down. 128 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: So when did you first meet Todd Ruggler. 129 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: So I I got wind of the uh uh that 130 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: Utopia was looking for a bass player John Siegler, who 131 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: was the bass player. The band had had gone from 132 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: a seven piece band with three keyboard players and Todd 133 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: and background singers and uh, you know Mookie Klingman and 134 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: John Siegler and Roger Powell and John eve Lebot, Willie Willcox, 135 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: Todd and at one point Lutha vanros uh and David 136 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: Laslie were the background singers in Utopia. Yeah and uh 137 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: and then and and the Todd was doing the record 138 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Faithful uh and which was a solo record, and John 139 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: Siegler decided that he was going to pursue a career 140 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: in advertising music, uh, creating music for for commercials and 141 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: television and movies, and so he left the band. He 142 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: didn't want to tour anymore. A friend of mine, Michael Caman, 143 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: who was who I had known through Cherry Vanilla, was 144 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: contacted by Roger Powell, and Roger asked Michael if he 145 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: knew of any bass players. It's a very convoluted story. 146 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: And Michael called Earl Slick up, who was a very 147 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: good friend of mine and I grew up with Earl 148 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: uh and said, if you know any bass players that 149 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: Todd Runggren's looking for one for his band Utopia. I 150 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: just happened to see Slick and he mentioned it to 151 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: me and he said, if you want to audition, call 152 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: Michael Camanough, which is what I did. And then the 153 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: next day I was on an Adirondack Trailways bus up 154 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: to Woodstock to rehearse with Roger Powell and Willie Wilcox, 155 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: the keyboard player and the drummer for Todd's return from India. 156 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: He was mope heading through India at that time. He 157 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: was due back the next day and we were going 158 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: to I was going to audition for the band. So 159 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: that was the first That was April like eight, nine, 160 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: ten or eleven of nineteen seventy six, So that's the 161 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: first time I met Todd. To answer your question, that's 162 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: a very long answer to your question. 163 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: So in your years with Todd, what traits did he 164 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 3: teach you or rub off on you in terms of 165 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: either his work process, the way he you know, wrote 166 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 3: songs or his disciplines. What did you learn from Todd? 167 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: You know, I mean I really cut my teeth in 168 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: that band. You know, everything up to that point was 169 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: kind of getting ready to be in a band like that, 170 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: a national recording touring band. So I uh, you know, 171 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: while I had always dabbled in, you know, in trying 172 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: to record songs and trying to write songs and playing live, 173 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: I really everything that I I learned, the foundation of 174 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: my entire career was was based around what I learned 175 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: in those first five six, seven years and being in 176 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: utopia Todd was It didn't didn't necessarily set out to 177 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: sit me down and say, okay, Son, well here's how 178 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: you record a lead vocal, and this is how you 179 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: write a background part, and this is where I placed 180 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: the microphone to record a guitar amp. And it was 181 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: nothing like that. It was just all about you know, 182 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: watching him, watching him work, watching how he worked with 183 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: other people, and uh you know, uh, I mean just 184 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: taking that uh uh and and making it my own. 185 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: One of the one of the most interesting thing was 186 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: things were right after I joined the band, I was 187 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: asked by Todd to uh to play on a record 188 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: that he was producing, and uh that was meat Loaf, 189 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: Bad out of Hell, and one of that was probably 190 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: I think might have been like the second record that 191 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: I'd ever recorded, and uh, it was. It was fascinating 192 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: watching him as a producer and an arranger for all 193 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: those those songs like Bad out of Hell and Paradise 194 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: by the Dashboard Lights two out of three ain't bed 195 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: took the words right out of my mouth, And how 196 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: he worked as a as a producer and as an 197 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: arranger and as kind of like a you know, a 198 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: leader in the studio when it came to recording somebody 199 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: else's music. So I was fascinating and I learned. I 200 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: learned so much about how, you know, how to make 201 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: records and how to put a band together and stuff 202 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, I learned a lot from talking what's. 203 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: In the Secret Sauce to album like that that makes 204 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: it just, you know, from start to finish, just so 205 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 3: and unbelievable. 206 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: You know. I think that that things like that you 207 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: don't really necessarily realize it at the time that you're 208 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: you're kind of making, you know, something that's going to 209 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: be iconic and you know and last for a very 210 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: very long time. The secret sauce. It's just chemistry, you know. 211 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: It's it's a group of people that get put together 212 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: and the sum is greater than the parts. So you 213 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: are you're just like a little You're a little piece 214 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: of it. But but everyone's contribution together makes this really 215 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: really special thing. And it's it's I don't think it's 216 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: anything that you can really. 217 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: Like. 218 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: There's no cookie cutter, there's no mold for it. It 219 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: just either happens or it doesn't. You know. 220 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: Do you recall where you were when you first heard 221 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: a song from that album on the radio. 222 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in my car. I was driving. I 223 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: had a little Alfa Romeo GTV, and I was driving 224 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: up to Woodstock to start a tour. I was on 225 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: the Palisades Parkway and I was listening to WNYW as 226 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, and a record of the song 227 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: came on and I said to myself, that sounds vaguely familiar. 228 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: I know I've heard that song somewhere before. And I 229 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: could not put my finger on it for the first 230 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: i don't know, thirty seconds or something like that, and 231 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: then I said, oh, that's the record that I did 232 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: with Todd that it was bad out of Hell. As 233 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it was the song bad out 234 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: of Hell, and I thought, wow, that's really cool they 235 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: got on any W. That's great. That was a milestone 236 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: in any musician's life to have your record played on WNYW, 237 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: especially in the afternoon drive, the place where rock lives there. 238 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: You go, yeah, what a special feeling hearing it. 239 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: My god, yeah, that was it was. It was very 240 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: interesting and then the album just exploded and you know, 241 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: the rest is history. 242 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: So it sounds like Scott Muni was the one from 243 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 3: any W. It was the first one that played it. 244 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: Maybe possibly, I think it might have played in Cleveland 245 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: before that. I think I think kid Leo might have 246 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: might have grabbed a hold of it and started the 247 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: ball rolling. I know there there is an article out 248 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: there about where it really took hold. But I think 249 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: by the time that Scott played it, or any anybody 250 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: at any W played it, it was it was already 251 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: something that people were calling up. It's when people used 252 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: to call up and say, you know, I want you 253 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: to play this record, you know those days. 254 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that's wonderful. I think there was a Cleveland connection. 255 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: Not only were kid Leo, but for some reason I 256 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: think in the music distribution side of it, there was 257 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: some Cleveland well. 258 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: Was Steve Popovich from who had Cleveland International, which was 259 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: a subsidiary of Epic Epic Records, and it was Steve 260 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: who you know. They tried to They tried to get 261 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: RCA to buy the record, They tried to get CBS 262 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: to buy the record, They tried to get Warner Brothers 263 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: to buy the record. Nobody wanted it. And this was 264 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 1: after it was done. No one wanted it. And and 265 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: that's when Cleveland International and Steve Popovich heard it and 266 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: heard something there and decided that they were going to 267 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: get behind it. And again it's like like I said 268 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, which is that that that whole 269 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: thing about you know, the stars just aligned and it 270 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: becomes something that that all the pieces just kind of 271 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: just fit together, and and the puzzle become why is 272 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: it that. 273 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: The song the very last time and then more than 274 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: a Feeling is one of the greatest segues of all time. 275 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: Maybe because we consciously, I think we were a little 276 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: tired at that point of making records that more people 277 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: weren't listening to, you know, we wanted to reach a 278 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: larger audience, and Todd had this great idea, He said, 279 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: why don't we do this, Why don't we listened to 280 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: the the billboard top Well, look, take a look at 281 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: what's the billboard top ten at that particular time in history, 282 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: and I think it was like seventy eight or seventy nine. 283 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: That might have been seventy eight. And let's just try 284 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: to cop those that vibe of those songs, like if 285 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: there's you know, for the life of me, I can't 286 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: remember what other songs were out at that time. There 287 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: might have been some R and D song that was 288 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: very popular. Boston was huge and more more than a 289 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: feeling was might have been a number one hit. I'm 290 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: pretty sure it was. So we just tried to craft 291 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: songs that weren't like that, you know, and and I 292 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: think we did a pretty good job, you know. And 293 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: that's where most of that record came from, was just 294 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: taking a look at what was popular and what was 295 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: getting the most traction on radio and in the charts 296 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: at that particular moment in time, and then just copying them, 297 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, just trying to make them our own, rewrite them, 298 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: if you will. 299 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: You spent some time with Joan Jet and the Blackhearts, 300 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: tell me how wonderful that experience was. 301 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: You know, I love Joan. She was She was fantastic 302 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: to work with. And Ricky Ricky Bird, the guitar player 303 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: in the Black Hearts, was still very very close to 304 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: this day. As a matter of fact, I have a 305 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: show with him on Saturday that I'm doing, But that 306 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: was about three and a half years. I think Tommy Price, 307 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: who was another fellow Staten Islander. We grew up together 308 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 1: and Tommy was a very, very in demand drummer in 309 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: the early eighties. Everybody was using Tommy on their record. 310 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: He got a call to play with Joan. Joan needed 311 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: a bass player. Tommy recommended me because we were best friends, 312 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: and I came in and then I was in Jones 313 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: band for the next I guess three and a half 314 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: years from eighty six to ninety. 315 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: And then how about your time working with the Great 316 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: Hall and Oates. 317 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: One of the best bands that I've ever been in. 318 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: There were two gentlemen besides Daryl and John, there were 319 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: two gentlemen in that band that are no longer with 320 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: us that I was and remain in awe of their musicality, 321 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: and that was t Bone Walk who was a drummer. 322 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry t Bone Walk who was the 323 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: bass player. He was the bass player for for the 324 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: longest time when I was in the band, t Bone 325 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: took guitar duties and so I played bass. But just 326 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: a brilliant musician and a lovely, lovely guy. And Bobby 327 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: Mayo the keyboard player, who was one of the best 328 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: keyboard players, piano organ players that I've ever worked with 329 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: in my in my entire life to this day. Just 330 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: guys with uh with the well it has no there's 331 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: no bottom to the well of their knowledge of you know, 332 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: of music. And so that was one of the best 333 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: bands that I was ever in the two or three 334 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: years that I played with Daryl and John were that 335 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: was a great, great, great time. 336 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 3: When I think of your well a music and I 337 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 3: think of diversity of styles and interests, you know, I 338 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: think of the work that you did around the Broadway, 339 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 3: the Twilight Tharp project, you know, in particular. So what 340 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 3: things that you haven't done do you want to do? 341 00:23:54,160 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: You know? I I was just toying the idea of 342 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: doing a big band. There's a guy who does a 343 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: guy by the name of Charlie Rosen who does it 344 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: is called the eight Bit Big Band, and they do 345 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: video game music with a big band like Mario Brothers 346 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: and and some other stuff that's like just out completely out. There. 347 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: Also this other guy that does a big band. He 348 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: does Zappa and Todd music with with like a thirty 349 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: piece orchestra. So I always wanted. I had this idea 350 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: that I would do a bunch of songs that I've 351 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: had over my career, not just solo, but with other 352 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: artists with a big band. So that's something that I 353 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: would love to do. It's just it's just so cost prohibitive, 354 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, to put together something like that and then 355 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: do a show. It's it's a it's it's a lot 356 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: of money to put a band like that together. So yeah, 357 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: that's something that I would love to do. 358 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 3: As you contemplate going on the road in the upcoming 359 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: tour with the Fix and you think of live performance, 360 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 3: do you have three maybe concert performances you as a 361 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: fan went too that stand out in memory, you know, 362 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 3: whether it be the greatness of the artist or the 363 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: venue or the whole package. 364 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the first concert that I really that I 365 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: distinctly remember was Led Zeppelin, at Madison Square Garden in 366 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy I want to say seventy two or seventy three. 367 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: It was right after led Zeppelin three was came out 368 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: and I went, I guess I was either fourteen or 369 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and they were they were just amazing. 370 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: They were so good. Another one was the Dolls at 371 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: the Mercer Arts Center in Manhattan. Very there was a 372 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: it was a very small, small club and seeing the 373 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: Dolls and I'm just like, I had no clue what 374 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: that was about, but I remember it made an impression 375 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: on me. And the other one was was, yeah, it 376 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: was either Jeff Beck at Carnegie Hall for the Orange 377 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: Album with Bob Bob Tench and Cozy Powell when they 378 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: did when they did that record, or on Staten Island. 379 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: There used to be a venue on Staten Island called 380 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: the Ritz and everybody came through here. I saw the 381 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: James Gang there Cactus Mountain at Woolman Rink. Was that 382 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: was just amazing, just a three piece band. It was 383 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: just so big, and I just remember saying, you know, 384 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: but boy, I can't wait to be doing that. I 385 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: can't wait to be on a stage like that. That 386 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: was my dream that's awesome. 387 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 3: So you're looking forward to this tour coming up. 388 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited about it. I know the guys 389 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: in the Fix pretty well and they were kind enough 390 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: to offer me the opening slot. And it's about fifteen 391 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: or sixteen shows that I'm doing over the course of November, 392 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's interesting as an opening act, 393 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: you kind of have you have a little bit of 394 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: a captive audience. Nobody's leaving while you play. So uh 395 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm very excited about being able to play 396 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: for some some new people and uh and hope that 397 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: that you know, that it goes well. 398 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: So in closing, as such a student of it all 399 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 3: and someone with such great disciplines, if someone's listening to 400 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 3: this and they are working their way up the music 401 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: ladder as a musician, what advice do you have for them? 402 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's such a different it's such a different 403 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: time right now. There is there's so many there are 404 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: so many more avenues to uh to kind of you know, 405 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: get your stuff out there and to be heard and 406 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: to create and and make a record. You don't need 407 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: to be in a recording studio anymore. You could do 408 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: it in your bedroom like Billie Eilish and her brother 409 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: and become hugely successful. Or you can build an audience 410 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: by playing live, you know, and and then working social media. 411 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: You know. Todd said one thing to me when when 412 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: I was had just joined the band. I'll never forget. 413 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: We were in Paris and I might have been playing 414 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: the Hippodrome in Paris, some large venue, and we were 415 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: having a chat on the side of the stage in 416 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: the middle of the show. Actually I forget what was 417 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: going on that we we have time to talk in 418 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: the middle of the show. And he said, you know, 419 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: he said, the real trick is knowing when to stop. 420 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: It's like if it's not happening for you, you know, 421 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: knowing when when it's time to do something else. He said, 422 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people just keep banging the head against 423 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: the wall when it's kind of not going to happen. 424 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: But having said that, if you have the if you 425 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: have the strength and the fortitude and the conviction and 426 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: the belief that what you are doing is really, really good, 427 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 1: then just keep doing it. 428 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for the joy of the music that you 429 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: continue to give us. 430 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: And good luck on the tour. Thank you so much. 431 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: Buzz I really appreciate you taking the time to talk. 432 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Taking a Walk. To stay up 433 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: to date with the podcast, and subscribe to our newsletter 434 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 2: at Takin a Walk dot substack dot com. Find us 435 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 436 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: your podcasts.