WEBVTT - The Bastards Who Killed Pat Tillman 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:05.600 H Hello everybody. I'm Robert Evans, and this is once 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:07.720 again Behind the Bastards, the show where we tell you 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.200 everything you don't know about the very worst people in 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.119 all of history. Now today we're actually talking about a 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.520 pretty good guy, but we're talking about all of the 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.800 terrible people who sort of surrounded his death and uh 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:20.720 kind of made it their own. So that's that's the 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.520 story today. It is the story of Pat Tillman. Now, 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.000 I grew up in a very conservative family, and from 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:28.639 the time I was eleven or twelve, I lived in 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:30.520 you know, deep in the heart of Texas. My parents 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.720 love George W. Bush, who had been the governor before 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.440 he was the president. They were big proponents of the 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.680 Iraq War. My childhood memories of Pat Tillman are sort 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.520 of fawning segments on Fox News about how he'd turned 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.640 down a multimillion dollar NFL contract to serve his country. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.800 I remember hearing that he'd been killed in Afghanistan bravely 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.040 charging up a hill. That that's at least how I 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.840 remember it as a kid in my head. Um. Now, 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.279 I think across all forms of conservative media that I 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.200 was aware of at the time, the portrayal of Pat 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.480 was the same. He was an all American hero, the 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.800 perfect symbol of the sacrifice their brave soldiers make for freedom. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:03.920 I remember hearing about Pat Tillman a lot, and then 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.840 suddenly people stopped talking about him at all, At least 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:08.880 people in the right wing media bubble that I had 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.080 been inhabited stopped talking about him. Now. My guest today 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.920 is Joe Kasabian. He's a co host of the Alliance 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.160 Led by Donkeys podcast, which is a military history podcast. 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.680 I recommend uh and Joe. You are an actual veteran yourself, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.840 and you served in Afghanistan as well. Is that correct? Yes? 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.640 I did. I did two tours of duty in Afghanistan, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.360 and I regret both of them. Yeah. Um, so tell 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.440 me about I know, I think cost is where Tillman 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.560 was stationed when he died. Like, where does that relate 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.120 to sort of where you were in country? I was 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.840 a little bit further north than where I was. I 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.640 spent well, my first first store I was in the 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.640 northeast and a little bit north of Kabul, outside of Bogram, 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.400 and then my second one I was in Kandahar, So 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.360 that definitely further north than Kanadahar. But gotcha in a 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.080 country that that like fracts this and everything that that 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.400 kind of resistance and fighting that you deal with his 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.800 night and day. Really that's interesting. I don't know all 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:08.760 that much, or I didn't when I got into this, 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:10.720 know all that much about what had actually happened to 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.720 Pat Tillman. I didn't know much about Pat Tillman. Like 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.240 I said, he was sort of this, uh, kind of 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.119 like movie poster looking guy like he if you've seen 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:21.560 the pictures of it, you've probably seen the one of 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.440 him in a uniform where he's got this almost unbelievably 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.960 white neck and he looks like a g I Joe. Yeah, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.639 he looks he looks like what every recruiter wants to 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.639 put on a poster, Like, he looks like an action star. Yeah, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.960 he's like the platonic ideal of the American soldier. Like 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.520 you couldn't have cast him better. Yeah, he's like he 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.200 looks like his face is like carved out a granite. Yeah, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.440 I know, what when were you over? There was a 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.960 two thousand nine or so my first tour of two 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.519 thousand and eight, two thousand nine on my second was 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.680 Susan eleven to twelve, So you were there about four 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.880 or five years after Pat, right, Yeah, right right, and 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.560 his his mythos so so I mean it's definitely not 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.760 a ranger like he was, but you know, his mythosis 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.360 so incredibly steeped in everything that I didn't know anything 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.720 about Pat tillman Um when I joined the army, but 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:13.320 then you see his face everywhere and especially nowadays, and 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:14.840 so how was it. Can you talk a little bit 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.000 about that, about how he was sort of talked about 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.799 and viewed when you were in the military and when 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.120 you were in Afghanistan, like and when he comes up, like, 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.079 how was he portrayed? Oh man um? Like he should 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:26.720 have had the Medal of Honor. You know, he gave 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.320 up his giant football contract, which I didn't know much about. 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.240 It wasn't a football fan at the time, um, and 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.160 it gave up everything and to go make you know, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.640 shitty specialist paycheck and go fight in Afghanistan. And I 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.440 mean this is years after everybody knew what really happened 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.680 when he died, and everybody just kind of glossed over 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.240 that fact. Yeah. I think it's interesting you say that 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.280 because I suspect a lot of people still don't really 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.480 know much about the actual Pat Tillman, because I realized 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:58.880 when I started researching this that I didn't know much 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:00.880 about the actual Pat tone because I had kind of 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.800 assumed that he was that living human embodiment of like patriotism, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.160 that he was sort of portrayed as as a young 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.280 man and or portrayed as when I was like a 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.640 kid watching stuff about him and coming across some pictures 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.160 of him when he was younger. His like really twisted 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:18.760 that a little bit, because like, we've got a couple 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.160 of pictures will have him up on the site, one 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.560 of him just like shirtless and flip flops, taking groceries 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.599 on a or on a bicycle and looking like a 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.680 beach bum. And another of him with like, I mean, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.120 I gotta say, like a really dumb haircut, but like 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.680 long hippie looking hair, Like he's still this gigantic, very 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.280 muscular man. But you get a really different sort of 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.760 picture of him looking at those Yeah, he had like 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.040 this longer flowing, almost mullet like hair all the way 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.320 when he like you see the it's even part of 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.039 like the statue they have him, and I think it's Arizona, Yeah, 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:57.840 where you know he's he's like throwing his golden locks back. Yeah, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.719 which is a better look for him than sort of 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.880 the aaved head because he looks like he looks like 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.039 he belongs in the Gears of War video game, and 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:05.720 a lot of the pictures you'll see when he's over 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.320 in Afghanistan because he's just all shaved headed and covered 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.240 in you know, body armor and and ammunition and stuff. 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.360 And anyway, it was interesting to me to learn as 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.680 I read more about him that the kind of long haired, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:18.960 hippie looking kid was probably more give you a better 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.279 depiction of like his actual personality than the pictures of 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.400 him in his uniform. Yeah, And that's one of the 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.760 things so that I have a couple of sources for 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.000 this book. One of them is the crack Our book 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.880 Where Men Win Glory, which is a pretty good book, 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.159 although it talks about a lot of high school football, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.040 So you've gotta be really ready to read about high 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.560 school football if you're gonna get into this story that 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.760 will be popular in Texas then Yeah. And there's a 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.520 there's a number of articles too on on the Intercept 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.839 on Sports Illustrated that all talked about Pat Tillman, and 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:50.720 they all paint a picture of a guy who's not 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.600 what I expected going into this, who was really sensitive, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.120 who was constantly reading a book, always had a book 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.160 in his hand, read you know, the Koran and the Bill, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.280 but was not himself religious and in fact identified as 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.279 an atheist. He wasn't the guy you'd think. And one 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:07.839 of the things I learned about him is that he 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.000 had a brief at least set of email exchanges with 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.920 Noam Chomsky and was planning on meeting with Chomsky when 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.880 he got out of the Army Rangers because he was 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.359 interested in Chomsky's philosophy and anti war views and wanted 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.120 to talk with him, which is again not what I 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.479 expected when I started reading about sort of the platonic 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.040 ideal of a meathead soldier. Yeah, and I think that 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.479 has a lot to do with um, that's what the 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.400 current narrative kind of wants us to think about soldiers, 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.680 and especially people like Pat Tillman. Is like, they don't 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.640 want you to look at his life because then he's 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.440 humanized and he's not that statue out front or the 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.760 poster that's shared through Facebook. So yeah, we're gonna be 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.880 talking about a bit about his life today and then 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.320 we're gonna be talking about sort of what was done 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.960 after his death, um, because that's really where the bastardry 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:56.920 enters into in this story. But I want to get 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.680 through some stuff about Pat's life. First. He grew up 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.440 in the Bay Area. He was an affluent kid. The 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.520 only black mark on his record as a young man 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.279 was a fight he got into outside of a pizza 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.200 restaurant that seemed to be like a case of mistaken identity. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.400 He thought some guys were going after one of his friends, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.280 and he wound up just really beating the hell out 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.880 of one of these guys, um and doing like thirty 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.560 days and juvenile attention and a bunch of community service 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.400 for it. He had to pay a bunch of money. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.120 But then he graduated high school and he went off 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:28.160 to Phoenix to play for Arizona State University. Obviously, he 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.600 was really good at football, good enough that after he 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:32.880 got out of Arizona State, he was picked for the NFL. 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.760 After he graduated, he was I think the last pick 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.080 of the year. So his salary was low by NFL standards, 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:40.800 which is still like a hundred and fifty eight grand 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:45.280 a year. Um, it was like a decent little signing bonus, 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.360 but after his first year he got offers to leave 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.320 Arizona and get more money. But he was the kind 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.000 of guy who was really loyal to his coach and 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.360 loyal to his team, so he wound up staying at 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.920 the league minimum for most of his career, which you 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:58.800 know raises every year. So he was making like five 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.440 hundred grand a year after a while. But his his 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.160 motivation in football wasn't just financially. Seemed to have a 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.920 strong sense of loyalty and really want to Uh, I 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.120 don't know, you just seemed to be the kind of 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.360 guy like a challenge himself. There's all these stories about 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.280 him jumping off of high things into in the lakes 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.240 and taking a lot of really physical risks, so that 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:18.880 seems to have been this guy is like one of 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.760 his north Stars as a young man, which makes a 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.880 lot of sense considering what happened later. Yeah, he's he 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.120 seems like the person that the Rangers would be looking 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.840 for us for sure. Yeah yeah, now, um, one of 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.800 the things I learned about Pat is that as an adult, 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.280 he was an outspoken gay rights advocate, and he was 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:38.679 seems like the kind of dude who if he were 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.760 still in the NFL, would probably have supported Colin Kaepernick 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.760 and taking a knee. He was a pretty woke sounding guy, 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.600 like there's a lot of his journals and diary passages 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.880 that are quoted and where men win glory, and he 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.960 in general seems like a pretty progressive and not like 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.560 reflexively patriotic dude, which is why it was kind of 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:02.120 frustrating on September seven, ten when President Donald Trump retweeted 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.760 a post from the Twitter names user is j Maga 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.520 forty five. Um, so, yeah, you know what you're getting 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.439 into here, and I've sent a picture over to you. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:12.920 Two will have it up on the site. But it's 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.760 a picture of Pat Tillman looking like a g I Joe, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.480 and it just says NFL player Pat Tilman joined US 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.600 Army in two thousand two. He was killed in action 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.080 two thousand four. He fought for letter four our country, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.280 slash freedom, hashtag, stand for our Anthem, hashtag boycott NFL, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:34.200 and Donald Trump, the President, retweeted that, um yeah, And 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.319 then there there was outcry from people who knew Pat 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.800 because they don't think he would have supported this idea, 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.400 and in fact, his wife, I mean didn't Pat Tillman's 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.960 sister come out and say something about like, please shut 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.240 the funk up about my brother or something along those lines. Yeah, 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.839 and his wife has been very vocally anti Trump and 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.080 been very vocal about the fact that Pat Tillman had 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.680 no desire to die for the kind of rhetoric that 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.920 Trump has has supported. So she, like pretty much everyone 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.160 knew him and was close to him, has been a 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.120 real big critic of the current administration, which is why 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.600 it's so gross when they kind of you can see 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.440 them trying to co opt his legacy even now, which 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.720 is sort of the pattern with Pat Tillman. Yeah. Yeah, 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.840 I mean, he was the all American fucking hero. I mean, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.800 that's they you can tell they truly support the troops 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.640 by dragging them out the grave for whatever political points 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.360 they need to make that leak. Yeah, it seemed like 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.840 for a little while during the Obama years, we'd stopped 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.800 hearing that done to him, but it does seem to 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.320 be coming back since he's you know, tied to the NFL, 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.439 and that's one of the big cultural issues right now, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.160 which is frustrating. Yeah, it's kind of absurd that the 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.240 two are even connected. Yeah, you know, Pat obviously joined 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.760 the army after nine eleven and because of nine eleven, 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.080 but it wasn't something he did immediately. It was a 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.440 decision he deliberated on for quite a while after the 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.560 towers fell. One driving factor in it was that he 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.960 felt his job in the NFL was now empty in 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.240 the wake of the attacks, and one interview at the time, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.240 he said, quote, it's hard because we play foot ball, 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.880 you know, it is so unimportant compared to everything that's 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.960 taken place, which is a fair statement when you realize 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.800 that you're playing football and the forever war is just 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.720 kicked off. Sure. Yeah, and especially at the time those wars. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.480 I grant, I was in middle school, but you know, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.600 those wars seemed like the right thing to do, So 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.079 I could hardly blame him for thinking that. Yeah, he 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.840 was like responding to this big attack and his his 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.559 whole desire was to go over and fight in Afghanistan, 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.120 And it seemed like it was more a desire that 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.640 other people not be fighting in his place in Afghanistan. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:34.520 And this is something I think a lot of people 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:36.679 on the left have trouble understanding, is like, coming from 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.280 a military family, that kind of pressure to like, well, Okay, 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.840 now there's something going on. This is what my family does, 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.080 and it's my responsibility to get in there and like 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.160 do my part. Yeah. Absolutely. Um A lot of people 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.240 don't like get the kind of pressure that comes down 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.800 on people who are raised in military families to following 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.000 somebody's footsteps. It's kind of like, unless you become a 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.800 doctor or you know, and sent a longer lasting light 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.920 ball or some ship, you're still a failure because you 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.360 can go and list or get a commission or whatever. Yeah, 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.240 And I think that's sort of how Pat felt about it, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.920 Like if he didn't do this now, and I think 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.000 he was thinking, you know, we would be out of 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.760 Afghanistan in a couple of years, which is not to assumption, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:20.840 but I think that was his assumption. And I think 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.200 he just didn't want other people to be at risk 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.079 in him not to be, which, in my opinion, that's 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.280 an admirable way to feel about something like that. I 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.680 don't fault him a bit for that. Um. I kind 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.199 of felt the same way Grant as a couple of 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.600 years later. But you know, why not. You know, he's 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.520 he was an incredibly healthy individual and could do pretty 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:43.079 much anything in the arm and would ever want him 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.200 to do so. I could see why he wanted to 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.640 go down that route, and in none of our minds 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.000 and we ever think almost two decades later, we'd be 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.960 sitting here and there's still be people in Afghanistan. Yeah, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:59.080 that one snuck up on everybody, didn't it. Yeah, those 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.520 those quagmire as a really sneak up on you. So 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.760 at the time, Patent wrote in his journal sort of 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.800 about his headspace when he was making the final decision 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.000 to join the army. He noted that quote, my life 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.160 at this point is relatively easy. It is my belief 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.000 that I could continue to play football for the next 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.280 seven or eight years and create a very comfortable lifestyle 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.240 for not only Mary but myself, but be afforded the 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.360 luxury of helping out family and friends. Shouldn't need ever arise. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.439 The coaches and players I work with treat me well, 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.719 and the environment has become familiar and pleasing. My job 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.520 is challenging, enjoyable, and strokes my vanity enough to fool 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.439 me into thinking it's important. However, these last few years, 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.800 especially after reefs and events, I've come to appreciate how 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.800 shallow and insignificant my role is I'm no longer satisfied 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.440 with the path I've been following. It's no longer important. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.200 So yeah, Pat joined the army with the eventual goal 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.160 of becoming an Army ranger. Now you mentioned earlier, this 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.200 guy was clearly physically qualified to do everything the Army could. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.880 Last Um, he hated boot camp. He thought it was boring, 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:56.600 and he was, you know, he was in his like 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.199 mid twenties at this point, so he it was like going. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.480 I imagine, and if you're six and you go to 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.559 boot camp, it's like being put around a bunch of 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.320 high school seniors. Again, like it it's frustrating, and that 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.880 seems to be his act. Could not imagine doing that. 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.160 I would have lost my fucking mind. Yeah, because like 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:17.880 the whole I mean, it seems to me that a 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.880 whole big part of the training is to get people 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.480 who are literally high schoolers ready to do something serious. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.640 So you're you, you have to deal with people who 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.000 are frustrating. Yeah, I mean I joined I was seventeen. 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.120 I mean, grant, that's not the most intelligent thing I've 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.040 ever done. But I was in training with people who 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.800 are in their forties and they were so sick of 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.280 my ship within like two weeks. Yeah, and he was 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.400 also like, it's really I'm glad that he was a 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.120 journal er because now we have sort of through his 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.720 own mind how he looked at a lot of this stuff, 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.560 and again his his perspective on things really surprised me. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.920 One of the notes he wrote during boot camp was 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.360 one thing I find myself despising this is the sight 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.720 of all these uns in the hands of children. Of course, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.400 we all understand the necessity of defense, it doesn't diminish 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.080 the fact that a young man I would not trust 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:13.040 with my canteen is walking about armed. It speaks so 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.160 much to my experience as well. Yeah, you see a 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.560 lot of people doing very dumb things with with firearms 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.080 in the military, which is not something that's ever sort 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.560 of replicated in our fictional depictions of it. But it 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.080 is a bunch of eighteen year olds being handed machine 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.480 guns for the first time. Absolutely. I was seventeen year 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.360 old and I was in a tank. I mean there's 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.280 I was not legally allowed to rent a car, but 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.880 I could fire ay millimeter cannon at whatever. You know, 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.800 It's the whole practice is it's not well thought out. Yeah, 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.800 when you when you sort of apply outside world standards 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.000 to the military, a lot of things make a lot 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.720 less sense when you're just like looking at like you 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.680 are nineteen years old. What are you doing with that? 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:04.520 Like who gave you get? Yeah, there's there's no way that. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.160 I mean, granted, I understand that drill sergeant start around, 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.000 and they're for the most part, all the ones I 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:11.800 have ever worked with, even when I got out of 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.600 basic training and end of running into them later down 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.720 the line, they all were good soldiers. But I mean, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.800 I've heard so many horror stories of people like they're 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.920 at the grenade range just dropping the grenade instead of 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.640 like after they pull the pen, they just drop it 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.960 from nerves and ship have to be like pushed to safety. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.920 Oh man, wait, no, that's possibly there. So if you 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.040 pull the pin out, there is actually like a safety 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.760 you can engage, not really like you there's like a 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.040 little safety switch like a piece of metal that you 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:43.760 pull off, and then you pull the pen and the 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.040 spoon goes flying. You can hold on to like the 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.240 spoon itself, but sometimes they'll cock their arm back to 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.920 throw it. Spoon will come off, arming the grenade, and 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.920 then they'll just drop it. I've never done it myself, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.000 but I have seen have done oh man. Uh see. Yeah, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.400 so Pat found it frustrating. You know. He it took 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.720 a while before he felt like more comfortable with the 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.680 people he was around, which I think did happen once 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:12.840 he went to ranger school, you know, than people were 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.480 a little bit older and had been through a little 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.480 more ship. But you know, he was already a guy 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.040 who had, you know, quite a lot of discipline. So 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.960 I think he was frustrated at the early stages of 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:23.960 his boot camp experience. Now, he did enlist with his 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.400 younger brother, Kevin, who was with him the entire time 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.520 he served, so that was kind of his like social 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.800 circle in the army. He had his brother, he had 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.600 a couple of friends, um, but it was a rough 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.040 period of time for him. He didn't like the drill instructors. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:38.879 He didn't like the way that they yelled a him. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.480 He didn't like being treated like he was, you know, 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.040 and I think some of that may have been getting 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.520 a little bit of an ego from being an NFL star, 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.960 But he just he found it a frustrating experience. Yeah, 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.399 I could see that not meshing. Well, I mean, he 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.160 went from being most effectively the top of the world. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.639 I mean, what's what's more popular in America than like 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.920 an NFL star flowing golden law box and chiveled good 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:02.720 luck to being yelled at and called a piece of 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.160 ship by a drill sergeant. Yeah, and it does seem 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.760 like he got a lot of extra pushups from people 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.040 who had been in just a little bit longer than him, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:11.919 and we're like, well, this is my chance to like 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.880 order around the famous NFL guy, Which I get. Why 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.200 you would you know, why you would jump at that? 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.119 Oh yeah, I may or may not have done the 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.399 same thing. Uh. Now. The Bush administration obviously made a 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.320 huge deal about Pat Tillman's enlistment, as did the army. 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.359 In the NFL, he became the poster child for the 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.159 entire War on Terror, heroic young man who tossed aside 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.000 wealth and privilege to fight a righteous war. But Pat 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:37.840 did not want to be a poster boy or a 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.600 recruiting tool. One of the first things he stated when 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.560 he made the decision to enlist is that he was 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.480 going to refuse all interviews after enlisting, which he did. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.439 He didn't talk to any press while he was in 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.840 the army. This actually wound up being a good thing 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.200 for the Bush administration because if he talked to the press, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.040 he might have accidentally revealed what he thought about the 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.000 impending Iraq war. Oh yeah, I can't have that. No, no, no, no. 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.359 His first tour of duty was a rap and he 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.960