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Speaker 1: H Hello everybody. I'm Robert Evans, and this is once

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Speaker 1: again Behind the Bastards, the show where we tell you

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Speaker 1: everything you don't know about the very worst people in

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Speaker 1: all of history. Now today we're actually talking about a

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Speaker 1: pretty good guy, but we're talking about all of the

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Speaker 1: terrible people who sort of surrounded his death and uh

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Speaker 1: kind of made it their own. So that's that's the

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Speaker 1: story today. It is the story of Pat Tillman. Now,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a very conservative family, and from

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Speaker 1: the time I was eleven or twelve, I lived in

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Speaker 1: you know, deep in the heart of Texas. My parents

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Speaker 1: love George W. Bush, who had been the governor before

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Speaker 1: he was the president. They were big proponents of the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War. My childhood memories of Pat Tillman are sort

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Speaker 1: of fawning segments on Fox News about how he'd turned

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Speaker 1: down a multimillion dollar NFL contract to serve his country.

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing that he'd been killed in Afghanistan bravely

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Speaker 1: charging up a hill. That that's at least how I

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Speaker 1: remember it as a kid in my head. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think across all forms of conservative media that I

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Speaker 1: was aware of at the time, the portrayal of Pat

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Speaker 1: was the same. He was an all American hero, the

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Speaker 1: perfect symbol of the sacrifice their brave soldiers make for freedom.

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing about Pat Tillman a lot, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly people stopped talking about him at all, At least

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Speaker 1: people in the right wing media bubble that I had

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Speaker 1: been inhabited stopped talking about him. Now. My guest today

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Speaker 1: is Joe Kasabian. He's a co host of the Alliance

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Speaker 1: Led by Donkeys podcast, which is a military history podcast.

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Speaker 1: I recommend uh and Joe. You are an actual veteran yourself,

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Speaker 1: and you served in Afghanistan as well. Is that correct? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I did. I did two tours of duty in Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: and I regret both of them. Yeah. Um, so tell

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Speaker 1: me about I know, I think cost is where Tillman

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Speaker 1: was stationed when he died. Like, where does that relate

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Speaker 1: to sort of where you were in country? I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit further north than where I was. I

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Speaker 1: spent well, my first first store I was in the

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Speaker 1: northeast and a little bit north of Kabul, outside of Bogram,

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Speaker 1: and then my second one I was in Kandahar, So

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Speaker 1: that definitely further north than Kanadahar. But gotcha in a

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Speaker 1: country that that like fracts this and everything that that

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Speaker 1: kind of resistance and fighting that you deal with his

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Speaker 1: night and day. Really that's interesting. I don't know all

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Speaker 1: that much, or I didn't when I got into this,

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Speaker 1: know all that much about what had actually happened to

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Speaker 1: Pat Tillman. I didn't know much about Pat Tillman. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, he was sort of this, uh, kind of

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Speaker 1: like movie poster looking guy like he if you've seen

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Speaker 1: the pictures of it, you've probably seen the one of

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Speaker 1: him in a uniform where he's got this almost unbelievably

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Speaker 1: white neck and he looks like a g I Joe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he looks he looks like what every recruiter wants to

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Speaker 1: put on a poster, Like, he looks like an action star. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's like the platonic ideal of the American soldier. Like

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Speaker 1: you couldn't have cast him better. Yeah, he's like he

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Speaker 1: looks like his face is like carved out a granite. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, what when were you over? There was a

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine or so my first tour of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, two thousand nine on my second was

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Speaker 1: Susan eleven to twelve, So you were there about four

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Speaker 1: or five years after Pat, right, Yeah, right right, and

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Speaker 1: his his mythos so so I mean it's definitely not

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Speaker 1: a ranger like he was, but you know, his mythosis

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Speaker 1: so incredibly steeped in everything that I didn't know anything

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Speaker 1: about Pat tillman Um when I joined the army, but

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Speaker 1: then you see his face everywhere and especially nowadays, and

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Speaker 1: so how was it. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that, about how he was sort of talked about

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Speaker 1: and viewed when you were in the military and when

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Speaker 1: you were in Afghanistan, like and when he comes up, like,

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Speaker 1: how was he portrayed? Oh man um? Like he should

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Speaker 1: have had the Medal of Honor. You know, he gave

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Speaker 1: up his giant football contract, which I didn't know much about.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a football fan at the time, um, and

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Speaker 1: it gave up everything and to go make you know,

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Speaker 1: shitty specialist paycheck and go fight in Afghanistan. And I

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Speaker 1: mean this is years after everybody knew what really happened

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Speaker 1: when he died, and everybody just kind of glossed over

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Speaker 1: that fact. Yeah. I think it's interesting you say that

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Speaker 1: because I suspect a lot of people still don't really

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Speaker 1: know much about the actual Pat Tillman, because I realized

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Speaker 1: when I started researching this that I didn't know much

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Speaker 1: about the actual Pat tone because I had kind of

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Speaker 1: assumed that he was that living human embodiment of like patriotism,

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Speaker 1: that he was sort of portrayed as as a young

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Speaker 1: man and or portrayed as when I was like a

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Speaker 1: kid watching stuff about him and coming across some pictures

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Speaker 1: of him when he was younger. His like really twisted

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Speaker 1: that a little bit, because like, we've got a couple

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Speaker 1: of pictures will have him up on the site, one

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Speaker 1: of him just like shirtless and flip flops, taking groceries

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Speaker 1: on a or on a bicycle and looking like a

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Speaker 1: beach bum. And another of him with like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, like a really dumb haircut, but like

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Speaker 1: long hippie looking hair, Like he's still this gigantic, very

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Speaker 1: muscular man. But you get a really different sort of

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Speaker 1: picture of him looking at those Yeah, he had like

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Speaker 1: this longer flowing, almost mullet like hair all the way

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Speaker 1: when he like you see the it's even part of

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Speaker 1: like the statue they have him, and I think it's Arizona, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where you know he's he's like throwing his golden locks back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is a better look for him than sort of

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Speaker 1: the aaved head because he looks like he looks like

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Speaker 1: he belongs in the Gears of War video game, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the pictures you'll see when he's over

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan because he's just all shaved headed and covered

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Speaker 1: in you know, body armor and and ammunition and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And anyway, it was interesting to me to learn as

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Speaker 1: I read more about him that the kind of long haired,

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Speaker 1: hippie looking kid was probably more give you a better

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Speaker 1: depiction of like his actual personality than the pictures of

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Speaker 1: him in his uniform. Yeah, And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things so that I have a couple of sources for

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Speaker 1: this book. One of them is the crack Our book

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Speaker 1: Where Men Win Glory, which is a pretty good book,

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Speaker 1: although it talks about a lot of high school football,

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Speaker 1: So you've gotta be really ready to read about high

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Speaker 1: school football if you're gonna get into this story that

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Speaker 1: will be popular in Texas then Yeah. And there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a number of articles too on on the Intercept

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Speaker 1: on Sports Illustrated that all talked about Pat Tillman, and

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Speaker 1: they all paint a picture of a guy who's not

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Speaker 1: what I expected going into this, who was really sensitive,

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Speaker 1: who was constantly reading a book, always had a book

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Speaker 1: in his hand, read you know, the Koran and the Bill,

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Speaker 1: but was not himself religious and in fact identified as

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Speaker 1: an atheist. He wasn't the guy you'd think. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things I learned about him is that he

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Speaker 1: had a brief at least set of email exchanges with

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Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky and was planning on meeting with Chomsky when

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Speaker 1: he got out of the Army Rangers because he was

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Speaker 1: interested in Chomsky's philosophy and anti war views and wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk with him, which is again not what I

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Speaker 1: expected when I started reading about sort of the platonic

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Speaker 1: ideal of a meathead soldier. Yeah, and I think that

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with um, that's what the

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Speaker 1: current narrative kind of wants us to think about soldiers,

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Speaker 1: and especially people like Pat Tillman. Is like, they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to look at his life because then he's

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Speaker 1: humanized and he's not that statue out front or the

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Speaker 1: poster that's shared through Facebook. So yeah, we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about a bit about his life today and then

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about sort of what was done

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Speaker 1: after his death, um, because that's really where the bastardry

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Speaker 1: enters into in this story. But I want to get

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Speaker 1: through some stuff about Pat's life. First. He grew up

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Speaker 1: in the Bay Area. He was an affluent kid. The

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Speaker 1: only black mark on his record as a young man

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Speaker 1: was a fight he got into outside of a pizza

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Speaker 1: restaurant that seemed to be like a case of mistaken identity.

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Speaker 1: He thought some guys were going after one of his friends,

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Speaker 1: and he wound up just really beating the hell out

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Speaker 1: of one of these guys, um and doing like thirty

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Speaker 1: days and juvenile attention and a bunch of community service

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Speaker 1: for it. He had to pay a bunch of money.

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Speaker 1: But then he graduated high school and he went off

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Speaker 1: to Phoenix to play for Arizona State University. Obviously, he

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Speaker 1: was really good at football, good enough that after he

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Speaker 1: got out of Arizona State, he was picked for the NFL.

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Speaker 1: After he graduated, he was I think the last pick

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Speaker 1: of the year. So his salary was low by NFL standards,

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Speaker 1: which is still like a hundred and fifty eight grand

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Speaker 1: a year. Um, it was like a decent little signing bonus,

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Speaker 1: but after his first year he got offers to leave

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Speaker 1: Arizona and get more money. But he was the kind

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Speaker 1: of guy who was really loyal to his coach and

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Speaker 1: loyal to his team, so he wound up staying at

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Speaker 1: the league minimum for most of his career, which you

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Speaker 1: know raises every year. So he was making like five

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Speaker 1: hundred grand a year after a while. But his his

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Speaker 1: motivation in football wasn't just financially. Seemed to have a

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Speaker 1: strong sense of loyalty and really want to Uh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you just seemed to be the kind of

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Speaker 1: guy like a challenge himself. There's all these stories about

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Speaker 1: him jumping off of high things into in the lakes

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Speaker 1: and taking a lot of really physical risks, so that

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Speaker 1: seems to have been this guy is like one of

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Speaker 1: his north Stars as a young man, which makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense considering what happened later. Yeah, he's he

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Speaker 1: seems like the person that the Rangers would be looking

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Speaker 1: for us for sure. Yeah yeah, now, um, one of

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Speaker 1: the things I learned about Pat is that as an adult,

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Speaker 1: he was an outspoken gay rights advocate, and he was

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Speaker 1: seems like the kind of dude who if he were

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Speaker 1: still in the NFL, would probably have supported Colin Kaepernick

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Speaker 1: and taking a knee. He was a pretty woke sounding guy,

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Speaker 1: like there's a lot of his journals and diary passages

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Speaker 1: that are quoted and where men win glory, and he

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Speaker 1: in general seems like a pretty progressive and not like

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Speaker 1: reflexively patriotic dude, which is why it was kind of

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Speaker 1: frustrating on September seven, ten when President Donald Trump retweeted

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Speaker 1: a post from the Twitter names user is j Maga

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Speaker 1: forty five. Um, so, yeah, you know what you're getting

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Speaker 1: into here, and I've sent a picture over to you.

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Speaker 1: Two will have it up on the site. But it's

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Speaker 1: a picture of Pat Tillman looking like a g I Joe,

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Speaker 1: and it just says NFL player Pat Tilman joined US

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Speaker 1: Army in two thousand two. He was killed in action

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Speaker 1: two thousand four. He fought for letter four our country,

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Speaker 1: slash freedom, hashtag, stand for our Anthem, hashtag boycott NFL,

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump, the President, retweeted that, um yeah, And

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Speaker 1: then there there was outcry from people who knew Pat

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Speaker 1: because they don't think he would have supported this idea,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, his wife, I mean didn't Pat Tillman's

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Speaker 1: sister come out and say something about like, please shut

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Speaker 1: the funk up about my brother or something along those lines. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and his wife has been very vocally anti Trump and

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Speaker 1: been very vocal about the fact that Pat Tillman had

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Speaker 1: no desire to die for the kind of rhetoric that

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Speaker 1: Trump has has supported. So she, like pretty much everyone

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Speaker 1: knew him and was close to him, has been a

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Speaker 1: real big critic of the current administration, which is why

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Speaker 1: it's so gross when they kind of you can see

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Speaker 1: them trying to co opt his legacy even now, which

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Speaker 1: is sort of the pattern with Pat Tillman. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was the all American fucking hero. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's they you can tell they truly support the troops

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Speaker 1: by dragging them out the grave for whatever political points

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Speaker 1: they need to make that leak. Yeah, it seemed like

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Speaker 1: for a little while during the Obama years, we'd stopped

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Speaker 1: hearing that done to him, but it does seem to

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Speaker 1: be coming back since he's you know, tied to the NFL,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the big cultural issues right now,

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Speaker 1: which is frustrating. Yeah, it's kind of absurd that the

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Speaker 1: two are even connected. Yeah, you know, Pat obviously joined

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Speaker 1: the army after nine eleven and because of nine eleven,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't something he did immediately. It was a

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Speaker 1: decision he deliberated on for quite a while after the

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Speaker 1: towers fell. One driving factor in it was that he

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Speaker 1: felt his job in the NFL was now empty in

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Speaker 1: the wake of the attacks, and one interview at the time,

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Speaker 1: he said, quote, it's hard because we play foot ball,

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Speaker 1: you know, it is so unimportant compared to everything that's

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Speaker 1: taken place, which is a fair statement when you realize

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Speaker 1: that you're playing football and the forever war is just

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Speaker 1: kicked off. Sure. Yeah, and especially at the time those wars.

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Speaker 1: I grant, I was in middle school, but you know,

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Speaker 1: those wars seemed like the right thing to do, So

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Speaker 1: I could hardly blame him for thinking that. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was like responding to this big attack and his his

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Speaker 1: whole desire was to go over and fight in Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: And it seemed like it was more a desire that

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Speaker 1: other people not be fighting in his place in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: And this is something I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: on the left have trouble understanding, is like, coming from

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Speaker 1: a military family, that kind of pressure to like, well, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now there's something going on. This is what my family does,

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Speaker 1: and it's my responsibility to get in there and like

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Speaker 1: do my part. Yeah. Absolutely. Um A lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't like get the kind of pressure that comes down

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Speaker 1: on people who are raised in military families to following

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Speaker 1: somebody's footsteps. It's kind of like, unless you become a

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Speaker 1: doctor or you know, and sent a longer lasting light

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Speaker 1: ball or some ship, you're still a failure because you

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Speaker 1: can go and list or get a commission or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of how Pat felt about it,

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Speaker 1: Like if he didn't do this now, and I think

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Speaker 1: he was thinking, you know, we would be out of

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan in a couple of years, which is not to assumption,

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Speaker 1: but I think that was his assumption. And I think

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Speaker 1: he just didn't want other people to be at risk

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Speaker 1: in him not to be, which, in my opinion, that's

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Speaker 1: an admirable way to feel about something like that. I

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Speaker 1: don't fault him a bit for that. Um. I kind

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Speaker 1: of felt the same way Grant as a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later. But you know, why not. You know, he's

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Speaker 1: he was an incredibly healthy individual and could do pretty

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Speaker 1: much anything in the arm and would ever want him

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Speaker 1: to do so. I could see why he wanted to

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Speaker 1: go down that route, and in none of our minds

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Speaker 1: and we ever think almost two decades later, we'd be

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Speaker 1: sitting here and there's still be people in Afghanistan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that one snuck up on everybody, didn't it. Yeah, those

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Speaker 1: those quagmire as a really sneak up on you. So

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Speaker 1: at the time, Patent wrote in his journal sort of

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Speaker 1: about his headspace when he was making the final decision

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Speaker 1: to join the army. He noted that quote, my life

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Speaker 1: at this point is relatively easy. It is my belief

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Speaker 1: that I could continue to play football for the next

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Speaker 1: seven or eight years and create a very comfortable lifestyle

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Speaker 1: for not only Mary but myself, but be afforded the

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Speaker 1: luxury of helping out family and friends. Shouldn't need ever arise.

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Speaker 1: The coaches and players I work with treat me well,

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Speaker 1: and the environment has become familiar and pleasing. My job

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Speaker 1: is challenging, enjoyable, and strokes my vanity enough to fool

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Speaker 1: me into thinking it's important. However, these last few years,

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Speaker 1: especially after reefs and events, I've come to appreciate how

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Speaker 1: shallow and insignificant my role is I'm no longer satisfied

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Speaker 1: with the path I've been following. It's no longer important.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Pat joined the army with the eventual goal

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Speaker 1: of becoming an Army ranger. Now you mentioned earlier, this

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Speaker 1: guy was clearly physically qualified to do everything the Army could.

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Speaker 1: Last Um, he hated boot camp. He thought it was boring,

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Speaker 1: and he was, you know, he was in his like

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Speaker 1: mid twenties at this point, so he it was like going.

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Speaker 1: I imagine, and if you're six and you go to

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Speaker 1: boot camp, it's like being put around a bunch of

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Speaker 1: high school seniors. Again, like it it's frustrating, and that

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Speaker 1: seems to be his act. Could not imagine doing that.

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Speaker 1: I would have lost my fucking mind. Yeah, because like

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Speaker 1: the whole I mean, it seems to me that a

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Speaker 1: whole big part of the training is to get people

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Speaker 1: who are literally high schoolers ready to do something serious.

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Speaker 1: So you're you, you have to deal with people who

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Speaker 1: are frustrating. Yeah, I mean I joined I was seventeen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, grant, that's not the most intelligent thing I've

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Speaker 1: ever done. But I was in training with people who

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Speaker 1: are in their forties and they were so sick of

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Speaker 1: my ship within like two weeks. Yeah, and he was

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Speaker 1: also like, it's really I'm glad that he was a

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Speaker 1: journal er because now we have sort of through his

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Speaker 1: own mind how he looked at a lot of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and again his his perspective on things really surprised me.

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Speaker 1: One of the notes he wrote during boot camp was

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Speaker 1: one thing I find myself despising this is the sight

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Speaker 1: of all these uns in the hands of children. Of course,

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Speaker 1: we all understand the necessity of defense, it doesn't diminish

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Speaker 1: the fact that a young man I would not trust

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Speaker 1: with my canteen is walking about armed. It speaks so

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Speaker 1: much to my experience as well. Yeah, you see a

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Speaker 1: lot of people doing very dumb things with with firearms

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Speaker 1: in the military, which is not something that's ever sort

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Speaker 1: of replicated in our fictional depictions of it. But it

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Speaker 1: is a bunch of eighteen year olds being handed machine

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Speaker 1: guns for the first time. Absolutely. I was seventeen year

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Speaker 1: old and I was in a tank. I mean there's

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Speaker 1: I was not legally allowed to rent a car, but

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Speaker 1: I could fire ay millimeter cannon at whatever. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's the whole practice is it's not well thought out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you when you sort of apply outside world standards

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Speaker 1: to the military, a lot of things make a lot

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Speaker 1: less sense when you're just like looking at like you

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Speaker 1: are nineteen years old. What are you doing with that?

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Speaker 1: Like who gave you get? Yeah, there's there's no way that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, granted, I understand that drill sergeant start around,

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Speaker 1: and they're for the most part, all the ones I

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Speaker 1: have ever worked with, even when I got out of

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Speaker 1: basic training and end of running into them later down

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Speaker 1: the line, they all were good soldiers. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've heard so many horror stories of people like they're

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Speaker 1: at the grenade range just dropping the grenade instead of

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Speaker 1: like after they pull the pen, they just drop it

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Speaker 1: from nerves and ship have to be like pushed to safety.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, wait, no, that's possibly there. So if you

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Speaker 1: pull the pin out, there is actually like a safety

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Speaker 1: you can engage, not really like you there's like a

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Speaker 1: little safety switch like a piece of metal that you

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Speaker 1: pull off, and then you pull the pen and the

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Speaker 1: spoon goes flying. You can hold on to like the

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Speaker 1: spoon itself, but sometimes they'll cock their arm back to

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Speaker 1: throw it. Spoon will come off, arming the grenade, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll just drop it. I've never done it myself,

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Speaker 1: but I have seen have done oh man. Uh see. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Pat found it frustrating. You know. He it took

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Speaker 1: a while before he felt like more comfortable with the

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Speaker 1: people he was around, which I think did happen once

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Speaker 1: he went to ranger school, you know, than people were

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Speaker 1: a little bit older and had been through a little

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Speaker 1: more ship. But you know, he was already a guy

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Speaker 1: who had, you know, quite a lot of discipline. So

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Speaker 1: I think he was frustrated at the early stages of

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Speaker 1: his boot camp experience. Now, he did enlist with his

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Speaker 1: younger brother, Kevin, who was with him the entire time

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Speaker 1: he served, so that was kind of his like social

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Speaker 1: circle in the army. He had his brother, he had

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Speaker 1: a couple of friends, um, but it was a rough

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Speaker 1: period of time for him. He didn't like the drill instructors.

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Speaker 1: He didn't like the way that they yelled a him.

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Speaker 1: He didn't like being treated like he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I think some of that may have been getting

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an ego from being an NFL star,

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Speaker 1: But he just he found it a frustrating experience. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I could see that not meshing. Well, I mean, he

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Speaker 1: went from being most effectively the top of the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's what's more popular in America than like

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Speaker 1: an NFL star flowing golden law box and chiveled good

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Speaker 1: luck to being yelled at and called a piece of

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Speaker 1: ship by a drill sergeant. Yeah, and it does seem

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Speaker 1: like he got a lot of extra pushups from people

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Speaker 1: who had been in just a little bit longer than him,

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Speaker 1: and we're like, well, this is my chance to like

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Speaker 1: order around the famous NFL guy, Which I get. Why

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Speaker 1: you would you know, why you would jump at that?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I may or may not have done the

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Speaker 1: same thing. Uh. Now. The Bush administration obviously made a

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Speaker 1: huge deal about Pat Tillman's enlistment, as did the army.

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Speaker 1: In the NFL, he became the poster child for the

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Speaker 1: entire War on Terror, heroic young man who tossed aside

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Speaker 1: wealth and privilege to fight a righteous war. But Pat

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Speaker 1: did not want to be a poster boy or a

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Speaker 1: recruiting tool. One of the first things he stated when

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Speaker 1: he made the decision to enlist is that he was

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Speaker 1: going to refuse all interviews after enlisting, which he did.

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Speaker 1: He didn't talk to any press while he was in

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Speaker 1: the army. This actually wound up being a good thing

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Speaker 1: for the Bush administration because if he talked to the press,

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Speaker 1: he might have accidentally revealed what he thought about the

399
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Speaker 1: impending Iraq war. Oh yeah, I can't have that. No, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: His first tour of duty was a rap and he

401
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Speaker 1: was really furious that he was sent to Iraq and

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Speaker 1: not Afghanistan. Sports Illustrated interviewed Russell Bear, who was a

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Speaker 1: ranger that was a Pet's friend during both of his

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Speaker 1: deployments and spent a lot of time with him. And

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Speaker 1: here's how Bear portrayed to them Tillman's attitude towards the

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Speaker 1: invasion of Iraq while he was actually in Iraq. So

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Speaker 1: this is like one of the first nights when they're

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Speaker 1: in country during the invasion. That night, as Pat watched

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Speaker 1: another orange and white flash bang shutter in the distant town,

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Speaker 1: he shook his head and said, this war is so

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Speaker 1: fucking illegal. Rust for the first time realized how wobbly

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Speaker 1: a tight rope Pat was walking between his integrity and

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Speaker 1: his duty. Even later in their three and a half

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Speaker 1: month deployment in Iraq, as it began to appear that

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Speaker 1: they had been sent on a NUX and biochemical weapons

416
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Speaker 1: wild goose Chase Russ never heard Pat go further than

417
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Speaker 1: this is all bullshit, which I don't think is an

418
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Speaker 1: uncommon statement to hear out of a soldier's mouth, but

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Speaker 1: probably not one that would have been pretty common. But

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Speaker 1: it's definitely not something they want someone like Pat Tillman

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Speaker 1: saying publicly no, and in his diary he was more

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Speaker 1: explicit with his condemnation of war. Quote. My hope is

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Speaker 1: that the decisions are being made with the same good

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Speaker 1: faith that Kevin and I aim to display. I hope

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Speaker 1: this war is about more than money, oil and power.

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Speaker 1: I doubt that it is. If anything were to happen

427
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Speaker 1: to Kevin, I would never forgive myself. If anything happens

428
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: to Kevin and my fears of our intent in this

429
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: country proved true, I will never forgive this world. So

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Speaker 1: Pat Tillman is not the guy he looks like on

431
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 1: the outside. But we've got to go to some ads

432
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 1: right now sell some products and stuff. So we're going

433
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 1: to break for that, and then we get back. We're

434
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 1: going to talk about Pat's involvement in the rescue of

435
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,640
Speaker 1: Jessica Lynch. If you remember that from seventeen years ago,

436
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: and we're back. We're talking about Pat Tillman. He's just

437
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: been sent to Iraq for a three and a half

438
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 1: month tour, which is like a weird ranger thing. They

439
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: only do really short tours, which ay um, sounds pretty

440
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 1: sweet compared to being there for eleven months. Kind of

441
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: like a double edged sword. They'll have them do really

442
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: short tours, but do a lot of them. Oh yeah, yeah,

443
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: so like a normal truth like myself, a do year on,

444
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 1: year off, sometimes less than a year off. But I know,

445
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: I mean there was that uh Special Forces sergeant who

446
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 1: died that that long ago, I believe in Afghanistan or Iraq,

447
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 1: I can't remember because I'm awful. And he had over

448
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: a dozen tours who died in a tour, right that

449
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,959
Speaker 1: was Afghanistan, I think, Okay, yeah, thirteen tours. Yeah, that's crazy.

450
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: So during his first tour, Pat was one of the

451
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: rangers who was assigned to the bloodless rescue of Private

452
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 1: Jessica Lynch. Now, if you've forgotten, Jessica Lynch was a

453
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 1: private first class. She was nineteen years old when she

454
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: was captured after eleven of her comrades were killed in

455
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: a disastrous firefight. The Washington Post published an article on

456
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: the whole ordeal back in two thousand three, titled she

457
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: was Fighting to the death. Here's how it described your capture.

458
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: Private first Class Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital,

459
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces

460
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: ambushed the Armies five or seven or its maintenance company,

461
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: firing her weapon until she ran out of ammunition. US

462
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: officials said, yesterday. Yeah. The article went on to claim

463
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: that Lynch, who was a supply clerk, continued to fire

464
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: at Iraqis even after she had been shot multiple times

465
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: and was eventually stabbed until she lost consciousness. The story

466
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: notes that she did not want to be taken alive.

467
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: None of this is true. That was just a bunch

468
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: of lives. No. Jessica Lynch was injured in a car crash.

469
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: Her convoy was attacked, which caused the crash. But the

470
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: real cause of everything seems to have been that this

471
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: convoy mistook where they were and accidentally drove into a

472
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: town that was occupied by the Iraqi Army. Yeah they

473
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: got lost, Yeah, they got lost. It was a giant

474
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: clusterfuck Obviously, I don't think Lynch did anything wrong, but

475
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: she got into a horrible car crash and her gun

476
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: jammed and she lost consciousness from her terrible injuries, and

477
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: and it kind of does a disservice because there was

478
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: another soldier that was captured with her, know whatever hears

479
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: about her, No, no, And she was the first Native

480
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: American woman to die serving in the United States military. Right,

481
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: I think so will correct me, but yeah, I think

482
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah, it was like, yeah, when Jessica Lynch

483
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: was rescued, there were multiple other U S soldiers had

484
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: been captured in iraq Um, but there was no like,

485
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: there was no good media angle for any of them,

486
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: so we never heard about any of those rescues or

487
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: any of those cases. But Jessica Lynch was like a

488
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: young nineteen year old woman, Like this was one of

489
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: the first wars where a lot of women had been

490
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: near the front line. So it was just like this

491
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: immediate pr thing that the Bush administration just sort of

492
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: creamed into. Um, the war needed a fast hero, yeah,

493
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: it needed a really fast hero, and they thought they

494
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: had this story of like this young woman who had

495
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: like fought until her she was out of Ammo and

496
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: stabbed repeatedly. And there were even grosser stories at the

497
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: time about like suspecting that she had been sexually assaulted

498
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: by the Iraqis who captured her, which is not at

499
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: all true. Uh And in fact, several of the she

500
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 1: was taken to an Iraqi hospital Saddam Hussein Hospital, because

501
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: of course that's what the hospital was named. Um, but

502
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: they like they took really good care of names, Todam

503
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: Hussein Hospital. That gets really confusing. There's the Saddam Hussein

504
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: Hospital and the Saddam Hussein like daycare center and yeah,

505
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: you know Saddam Hussein Romance Library. Um. But yeah, she

506
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: was taken to this hospital and like several Iraqi doctors

507
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: and nurses donated blood to actually give her transfusions and

508
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: stuff like. She was treated very well after being captured

509
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: by the civilians who she wound up in the care of.

510
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: But none of that, none of that made for a

511
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: good story, like, oh, hey, our enemies are people too,

512
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: and they take care of a wounded person. Would not

513
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: be Yeah, I mean, the situation probably would have been

514
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: different if she was captured by like, but she wasn't she.

515
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: I think she was captured by the Republican Guard of

516
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: all units, so they're like the best soldiers she could

517
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: have been captured by. Yeah, and they pretty much were

518
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: immediately out of the picture, Like they dropped her off

519
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: at the hospital and then they got the funk away

520
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: from that hospital because they knew the Americans were going

521
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: to come. Um yuckers. Yeah, so it was, it was,

522
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: it was. The whole rescue operation was a pr opportunity.

523
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: They got several different ranger units and a bunch of

524
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: different like special forces units, like it was, they had

525
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of gun ships. Like it was a way

526
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,239
Speaker 1: larger operation than you would ever call in for like

527
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: a single pow in the middle of an invasion. Like

528
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: maybe now, like you know, when uh, I forget the

529
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: name of the guy who was at Bergdal who like

530
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: this post in Afghanistan, there was a big search for him.

531
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: But that was because this was a weird disruption to

532
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: a war that had hit like a pretty stable pattern.

533
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: This is like the middle of the invasion, So it's

534
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: weird that they devote this many forces to like rescuing

535
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: a single private from an undefended hospital. Um. And yeah,

536
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: normally you would just be written off. It's it's kind

537
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: of cold. But unless you're a pilot or I don't know,

538
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: someone that knows something, probably probably shouldn't be giving to

539
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: the enemy like some kind of Special Forces soldier. You're

540
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: going to be written off. Yeah, especially when like the

541
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: country hasn't fallen yet, you know, Saddam is still in

542
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: charge theoretically of part of the country. Um. Pat seemed

543
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: to know at the time that it was a kind

544
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: of bullshit. Uh, he wrote in his diary quote, the

545
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: mission will be a pow rescue a woman named Jessica Lynch.

546
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: As awful as I feel for the fear she must face,

547
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: and admire the courage I'm sure she is showing. I

548
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: do believe this to be a big public relations stunt.

549
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: Do not mistake me. I wish everyone in trouble to

550
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: be rescued, But sending in this many folks for a

551
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: single low raking soldier screams of media blitz, which it was.

552
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: The operation was actually delayed by like a day so

553
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: that a camera crew could follow along and film it.

554
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: Um And I didn't know they had Special Forces camera crews.

555
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: But they have Special Forces camera crews. Yeah, they're are

556
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: combat camera guys. We had them pop up from time

557
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: to time. When I was there, there well the l

558
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: element for the most part, but they're all right. Yeah,

559
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: I I can empathize with being out of your element.

560
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: It does feel weird to have a camera when everybody

561
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: else has a rifle. I can't imagine, that's for sure.

562
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: I I mean, there wasn't any enemy in the hospital,

563
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: was there. No, No, no, no, no, no. They they

564
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: had left quite a while before that happened. Some doors

565
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: got kicked in. I think there were some shots near

566
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: people's heads to sort of keep them down or whatever,

567
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: but there was no actual fight that happened. It was

568
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: a bloodless rescue. Wow, the alien good zalis an entire hospital.

569
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, I mean they really did funk up

570
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: that hospital. But you're not gonna not funk up the hospital, Like,

571
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: what are you doing with all these fancy fucking up

572
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: equipment if you're not going to fuck some stuff up.

573
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: I mean, also, that's a pretty big violation of the

574
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: Geneva Convention targeting a hospital like that. But you know,

575
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: whatever were the US, it doesn't really apply to us, right, Yeah,

576
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the Geneva Convention says.

577
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: If somebody's being held there or whatever. I really I

578
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: I haven't read it recently, although it certainly has been

579
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: taking a little bit of a pounding in Syria right now.

580
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of people get away with

581
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: bombing really in hospitals and like mosques, uh any religious

582
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: building things like that. You can target them if you're

583
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: taking fire from them, like if the enemy is using

584
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: them to uh to actually like a defensive position, you're

585
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: good to go. But as far as the pow thing, nah,

586
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't really fly unless you have someone that can

587
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: really work into gray. Well, speaking of people who can

588
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: work in the gray, the whole rescue was staged by

589
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: a guy named Jim Wilkinson, who was on paper the

590
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: director for strategic Communications for General Tommy Frank's, but in

591
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: reality was George W. Bush's best pr man before and

592
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: he's he seems to be the guy who was like,

593
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: at the camera crew here, we need to have these

594
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: different units here because these are like the units they're

595
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: gonna look best going in on this mission that we

596
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: want to be able to like report on. He staged

597
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: managed this whole thing, and before the Iraq War, he

598
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: had worked with candidate Bush in the two thousand election

599
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: He's the guy responsible for spreading the myth that al

600
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: Gore claimed to have invented the Internet, so that's his

601
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: other claim to fame. Wilkinson also put together the famous

602
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: trip Bush took to Ground Zero right after the nine

603
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: eleven attacks. He was the kind of guy you would

604
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: call to put shine on stink. According to the book

605
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: Where Men Find Glory quote, Wilkinson was the President's man

606
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: on the ground at US Central Command headquarters in Qatar,

607
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: controlling and carefully shaping information about the war disseminated by

608
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: the international press. In this capacity, he adroitly stage managed

609
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: both the rescue of Jessica Lynch and the subsequent media

610
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: coverage of her ordeal. It was Wilkinson who arranged to

611
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: give the Washington Post exclusive access to classified intelligence that

612
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: was the basis for the now discredited she was fighting

613
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: to the death story that ran on the front page

614
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: of the newspaper. So Wilkinson basically co opted the Washington

615
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: Post to help write propaganda, which is neat. Thankfully that

616
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: doesn't happen anymore. No, this is the last time it

617
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: ever happened to any journalist. Yeah, yeah, thank god. Also,

618
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: I mispronounced cutter. I was hoping no one would notice,

619
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: but my conscious caught up with me. So the two

620
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: people in Cutter who are listening to this, I'm sorry

621
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: I pronounced your country's name wrong. There's probably less of

622
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: you demographic. Man. Well you know it's a critical demographic

623
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: because they're all rich oil shakes. So like you know,

624
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: you get all you sell a lot of T shirts

625
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: to that crew, is what I'm saying. I think you're

626
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: now bands from the World Cup. Preemptively your ship caned.

627
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well I don't think soccer is a real sport.

628
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: So there goes my Australian listeners. Everybody in Europe, most

629
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: of the Middle East, Spain just dropping like flies. And

630
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: this is the episode they listened to because we're the

631
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: bastards this time. Oh yeah, no, no, I but I've

632
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: been firm about my anti soccer stance and Sophie is

633
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: here staring at me. But it's not a real sport.

634
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: There are two real sports and neither of them are soccer.

635
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: And that's all we're gonna get into about sports today.

636
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: I just want to know what the two are. Well,

637
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: that's another episode today. We're talking about Pat Tillman, who

638
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: played a fake sport called football and then became an

639
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: army ranger. Now Pat was aware of all the pageantry

640
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: that had been injected into the Jessica Lynch rescue. He

641
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: knew it was all there to distract from a war

642
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: that so far had failed to deliver up any of

643
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: the w M D S American voters expected. Looking at

644
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: all this, he couldn't help but think about what the

645
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: Bush administration would do if something happened to him. Jade Lane,

646
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: a arranger who served with Tillman, recalled this. When we

647
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: were in Baghdad, our cots were next to each other.

648
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: Pat and I used to talk at night a lot

649
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: before we rack out. I don't know how the conversation

650
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: got brought up, but one night he said he was

651
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: afraid if something were to happen to him Bushes people

652
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: would like make a big deal out of his death

653
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: and parade him through the streets. And those were his

654
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: exact words. I don't want them to parade me through

655
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: the streets. It just burned into my brain him saying that,

656
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: which is pretty heartbreaking, because I think we all do

657
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: know what comes next, which is exactly that. Yeah, he's

658
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: not gonna like that statue much. No, Well, I mean,

659
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: that's a football thing. I guess that's okay. He likes

660
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: he's he's football pat in the in the statue. But

661
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: we all know why the statue is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

662
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: that is a fair point. Um. The Lynch Rescue, though,

663
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: generated more than six hundred news stories, as well as

664
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: a nonfiction book that became a New York Times bestseller.

665
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: Jessica got her own made for TV movie released during

666
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: Sweets Week, which I don't think is a thing anymore,

667
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: but definitely was. Then the Rambo portrayal of her whole

668
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: ordeal got a huge amount of time in the sun

669
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: before anyone realized that it was all a lie. I

670
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: don't know if the Internet would have busted that lie faster,

671
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: you know, if this had happened more recently, or if

672
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: it would have made it even harder to dispel. But

673
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: people bought into the Jessica Lynch story for a long time.

674
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: I know I did when I was a little kid

675
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: paying attention to all the Iraq news. Now yeah I

676
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: did too, Oh yeah, because it was just this, like

677
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: it sounded like it was the story of this like

678
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: almost mad max story of this convoy getting ambushed and

679
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: she's like ramming people in her car and shooting a

680
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 1: machine gun. It's it sounded cool. Yeah, it turns out

681
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: it was just to garden variety tragedy which nobody wants

682
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: to hear about that and a made for TV movie.

683
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: You know, we want something now that's uh, that's more

684
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: of a comedy of airs and makes everybody just feel

685
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: sad inside. Yeah, although I do want to be clear,

686
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: there's no evidence I've ever heard that Lynch herself did

687
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: anything wrong. She was just a private in a vehicle

688
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: and a terrible thing happened. Uh right, you can't blame

689
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: a private. I don't know if she was a driver

690
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: or or not, because I know she was like her

691
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: a job, was a truck driver, but I don't know

692
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: if if she was actually driving the vehicles. Like, it's

693
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: not her fault she took the wrong turn. Private stuff control,

694
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: That just that her fault. She didn't man some Alamo

695
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: type defense private self control that either. You just happened

696
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: to be a colleg in a machine that got fucked up. Yeah,

697
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: And she has been pretty outspoken about wanting to correct

698
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: the records since and we'll be we'll be getting to that. Uh,

699
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: in a little bit here. But yeah, So now, in

700
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: the book Where Men Find Glory, crack Our alleges that

701
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: all of the hoop law around lynches, capture and rescue

702
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: was mainly intended by the Bush administration to distract the

703
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: American public from a major funk up a killing of

704
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: seventeen U S Marines by friendly fire of I think

705
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: it was a pair of aton Ward hogs um And

706
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: this had happened like four days into the invasion. So yeah,

707
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: having this story of like, you know, there's this woman

708
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: warrior being rescued and Pat Tillman, the poster boy of

709
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 1: the Army, is here, and it's like this great and well,

710
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: let's all pay attention to that and ignore the fact

711
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: that we bombed our own guys, which you know, not

712
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: a dumb strategy if you're the Army or the Bush administration.

713
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: And it clearly worked. So yeah, Pat did his three

714
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 1: and a half months in Iraq. When he got home,

715
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: he had officially completed a combat tour. This meant he

716
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: could have qualified for a special dispensation to end his

717
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: term of service early. In return to the NFL. Both

718
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 1: the NFL and the Army would have been totally down

719
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: for that because I think Pat was a lot more

720
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: valuable to the army as a recruiting tool than as

721
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 1: a single ranger. Um yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's

722
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 1: I think that's what everyone but Pat would have preferred.

723
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: But Pat was not willing to take any special treatment,

724
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: and so in April of two thousand and four, he

725
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: deployed to Afghanistan with his brother Kevin and the rest

726
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: of his ranger unit. Now, a few days into their tour,

727
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: his unit was doing one of those missions that I

728
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: gather are pretty common in Afghanistan, where they're basically driving

729
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: around in the mountains for a few days, searching villages

730
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: for weapons caches and looking for taliban. Um. Oh yeah,

731
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: that's pretty much your existence. Yeah. I always make I

732
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: always make jokes that, like, you know, our grandfathers were

733
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: we're going to storm the beaches and take these pill

734
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: boxes or you know, take these hedgerows and we're just

735
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: let's drive around in circles until some rando tries to

736
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: fucking murderer. It does seem to be a step back

737
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: strategically from storming beaches and taking cities. Yeah, it's it's

738
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: the dumbest ship on Earth. And I mean, I'm sure,

739
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: it was much different in two elses before than when

740
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: I was there several years later. But you know, you

741
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: just drive round Wayne didn't get blown up or someone

742
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: take a shot at you, and you hope you survive

743
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: so you can try to kill them back. Yeah, and

744
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: that it does seem every description I've read about the

745
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: mission he was on, it does just seem like they

746
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: were driving around waiting for someone to start trouble with him. Yeah. So,

747
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: so that's the job these guys are doing. Um, they're

748
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: out in in the middle of no it looks if

749
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: you've ever been deep into like the California Desert, the

750
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: California Desert seems to look a lot like Afghanistan, which

751
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: I think is why they do a lot of training

752
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: there for it. Yet the other the national training centers

753
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: in the middle of Colorado. Oh cool. Um. So yeah,

754
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: it's like they're in this like dry high desert area

755
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: searching villages and one of their humvees gets sucked up

756
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: the axles, I think, break on it and they can't

757
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 1: use it anymore. Um. I think normally today they would

758
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: send in something like a chinook to pick it up.

759
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: But all of these spare air assets were in Iraq

760
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: because the invasion was still really fresh, so they didn't

761
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: have any spare like chinooks that they could send to

762
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: pick this thing up. So there were a couple of

763
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: different things they could have done Tilman's platoon leader, First

764
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: Lieutenant David Lot, wanted to take the gun off and

765
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: just blow up the humpy, but his commanding officer back

766
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: at base wasn't willing to let him do that because

767
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: it would look bad and be essentially seen as as

768
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: this guy wasting money. So eventually a Lot and his

769
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: men found a local truck driver who agreed to tow

770
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: the humby, but that created another problem. The platoons still

771
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: had more villages to clear on its list, and if

772
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: they didn't search all of the villages they've been arbitrarily assigned,

773
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: they'd make their lieutenant colonel look bad and slow up.

774
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: Like the whole time plan that everybody was working on.

775
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: How you can't make lieutenant colonel look bad? I think

776
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: of the outcome? No no, no no, So this guy

777
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: like yeah, and that's like the apparently there They spent

778
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: quite a lot of time with this lieutenant being like, look,

779
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: it's a really dumb idea to like split the platoon

780
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: in half. Why don't we just all take this thing

781
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: back and then we can head out, And he's really

782
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: adamant about like, no, there's a time frame. You're supposed

783
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: to have done these villages by this time, Like, we're

784
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: not gonna let this slow us down. And it should

785
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: probably be noted that the lieutenant colonel is definitely not

786
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: there with them, no no, no, no, no no. He

787
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: is on the phone with him, probably upping hot coffee.

788
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: So the the only option that they had after the

789
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: lieutenant colonel's orders was to split the platoon. Half of

790
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: it would go back with the broken humvy and the

791
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: other half would continue on its mission to search a

792
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Specialist Jade Lane recalled,

793
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: nobody on the ground thought it was a good idea

794
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: to split the platoon. The pl didn't want to do it,

795
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: but in the army, you obey orders. If somebody with

796
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: a higher rank tells you to do something, you do it.

797
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: So a flat split the platoon. Now, the mountains being

798
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: what they are and technology being where it wasn't two

799
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: thousand four, the two groups couldn't really communicate very well,

800
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: so Tillman's group didn't realize when the second group with

801
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: the broken hum vy and the tow truck doubled back

802
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: behind them. Um. And this was apparently because when they

803
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: first tried to get back to the base, they realized

804
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: they're oute they wanted to take was two treasures for

805
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: the tow truck. So the driver was like, well, if

806
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: we just go through where they're heading right now and

807
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: drive ahead of your other buddies, there's another road that

808
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: we can use to get back into town. So while

809
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: this second group towing the humvy is like pulling up

810
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: behind Tillman's unit, they ambushed by some Taliban guys with

811
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: mortars and I think just like a K forty seven.

812
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: It's really debatable how much fire the unit was under

813
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: at this point. But somebody starts shooting and then all

814
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: of the rangers start shooting, and what happened next is

815
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: just a total clusterfuck. So the valley where this ambush

816
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: happened is like one of those it seems like a

817
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: classic Afghan kind of mountain feature where it's like I

818
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: sent the picture along in that dock I sent you,

819
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: but it's like steep walls raising up on either side

820
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: and really narrow. It's like a perfect place to ambush somebody. Yeah,

821
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: I mean, especially the only way to get through is

822
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: like tightly curled switchbacks. I mean, I've been on that

823
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: ambush before and it sucks. And i mean, like you're

824
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: talking about what its hard to communicate. That's two dollaran

825
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: for technology, and that's also just Afghanistan. Those valleys make

826
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: it almost impossible for our modern radio systems to work. Yeah,

827
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: So everybody's really confused and half of them are getting shot.

828
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: And Tilman is with the group that's not getting shot.

829
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: But he he realizes what's happened. He sees that his

830
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: comrades and unit that his brothers with is under fire.

831
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 1: So he and a couple of other guys run towards

832
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: the rangers that are under fire to try and and

833
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: they like kind of get up on top of this

834
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: ridge line to try and lay in suppression fire on

835
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: the dudes who are shooting at their friends. Um So,

836
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: Tillman and two other soldiers, a ranger and an Afghan

837
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: National Army guy scale this ridge line and start providing

838
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: suppression fire when a topless, doorless humvy filled with heavily

839
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: armed and panic rangers rolls towards them. Now this unit

840
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: was run by a sergeant named Greg Baker. He was

841
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: a guyota reputation for being a very good soldier, but

842
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: it seems like he he either made an error or

843
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: freaked out. So Baker is rolling forward on this jeep

844
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: with like three other guys in it, and they're all

845
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: just kind of shooting at the hilltops around them, and

846
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: Baker sees the Afghan National Army soldier who's standing next

847
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: to Pat Tilman, and he sees he says, he sees

848
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: his beard and his face and realizes that he's Afghan

849
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: and just shoots him dead right on the spot, not

850
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: noticing that he's wearing like the uniform of the a

851
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: n A. So Baker kills this guy, and then all

852
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: of the other rangers in his car start pouring fire

853
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: into Pat Tillman and Tillman's buddy. So we're gonna talk

854
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: about what happens next. But that's sort of how everything

855
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: goes to ship, right, Yeah. I mean I wish I

856
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: could say that isn't like on brand for soldiers everywhere

857
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: just to blindly shoot where everybody else is. But I

858
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: could see this happening tomorrow, and that's exactly the justification

859
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: everybody else in the car gives is they see their

860
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: squad leaders shooting in one direction and so they just

861
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: start firing. Yeah, it doesn't end well, but speaking of things,

862
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: that doing well adds and we're back. Uh, so we've

863
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: just gotten into Yeah, Tillman and his guys are up

864
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: on this ridge. Greg Baker, sergeant in a humpy with

865
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: three other guys, has just fired and killed the Afghan

866
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: National Army guy next to them, And now all of

867
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: the rangers in this humby start pouring fire into the

868
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: position where Pat Tillman is standing with you know, his

869
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: buddy and a guy named O'Neil, one of them in

870
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: shooting at them with Stephen Ashpole, a fifty caliber machine gunner.

871
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: When asked why he and the other rangers in the

872
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: jeep hadn't waited to ide their targets before shooting, he said,

873
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: you are drilled into as a private shoot where your

874
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: team leader shoots. We came around a curve. Sergeant Baker

875
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: then called fire, and I transitioned my weapon and saw

876
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: some quick shapes and fired where Sergeant Baker and the

877
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: other guys are firing. So that's exactly what happens. Um

878
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: the other guy O'Neill manages to survive, but Pat Tillman

879
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: is shot three times in the head by a fellow

880
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: army ranger with a saw squad automatic weapon. And yeah,

881
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: I mean he was he was killed immediately three times.

882
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: That that's yeah, this isn't sound really shitty. That's shocking

883
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: he was able to make that shot. Yeah, I mean

884
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: it does sound like they were all really good shots

885
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: in that humpy Yeah, they're they're simultaneously incredibly inepted where

886
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: they were shooting, but incredibly accurate. I mean, you know,

887
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: at least that's half of where they're supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah, so, uh,

888
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: it's it's somewhere between two and of American war casualties

889
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 1: come from friendly fire, which is such a broad range

890
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: that it's almost a useless statistic because it means it's

891
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: either almost nobody or a quarter of American war casualties.

892
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: UM imagine that studying literally any other topic. Yeah, it's

893
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: it's weird how bad the data on it is. And

894
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: I tried to find better information. I was not able to.

895
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: I found one article in two Doesn't Tend that said

896
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: that at that point, at least seven U S soldiers

897
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: had been killed in thirty four wounded in Iraq and

898
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: friendly fire incidents since the invasion, but that didn't count

899
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: like a dozen or so British soldiers who had been

900
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: killed by US friendly fire at that point. It seems

901
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: in general like the Army does not do a good

902
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: job of reporting friendly fire casualties, and that wouldn't do

903
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: a good job of reporting anything that makes them look bad. No,

904
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what happened with Pat Tillman. There was

905
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: no doubt at the time that he had been killed

906
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: by members of his own unit, that it was fratricide,

907
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: but an investigation was ordered by the Army, which was standard,

908
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: but they used the investigation as an excuse to not

909
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: say anything about the fact that Pat had been shot

910
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: by his own buddies. So a bunch of ship like

911
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: this is really aware the bastardry starts to pile up

912
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: because um, for one thing, Lieutenant Colonel Hodney, who was

913
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: the guy who had ordered a lot to split his

914
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: platoons that they wouldn't you know, get off of the

915
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: time frame. The guy he put in charge of the

916
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: investigation was only a captain, which is according to like

917
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: military the regulations that they were doing the investigation under

918
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: Article fifteen Dash six. Um, the investigation was supposed to

919
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: be conducted by someone with a higher rank than anyone

920
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: he might have to investigate. So since the lieutenant colonel

921
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: put a captain in charge of it, that meant basically

922
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: no one in command could be investigated as having had

923
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: a role in Tilman's death from the start. So it

924
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I should have at least been a colonel. Yeah, exactly.

925
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: It should have been somebody who could have looked into

926
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: what Hodney had been doing and looked at, well, did

927
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: the shitty orders they were getting contribute to this soldier dying?

928
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: Which seems like a definite yes. Um. Yeah. So one

929
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: of those men most involved in hiding what happened to

930
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: Pat Tillman was a general named Stanley McCrystal. Uh now

931
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: at that point, uh huh yeah, um. At that point

932
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: he was the Joint Special Operations Command Commander Jay Sak.

933
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 1: McCrystal ordered the facts of Tillman's death to be concealed.

934
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: The justification at the time is that it would have

935
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: been irresponsible to say anything until the investigation was concluded. Uh.

936
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: Here is a quote from the book Where Men Find

937
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: Glory According to a federal statute and several Army regulations,

938
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: Mary Tillman, as next of kin, was supposed to be

939
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: notified that an investigation was underway, even if friendly fire

940
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: was only suspected, and be kept informed as additional information

941
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: about the cause of death becomes known. Instead, McCrystal and

942
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: the soldiers under their command went to extraordinary lengths to

943
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: prevent the Tillman family from learning the truth about how

944
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: Pat died. So they're not they're not telling Pat's wife

945
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: when they're supposed to tell her that there's an investigation

946
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: to the nature of his death. They've ordered all of

947
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: the members of Pat's unit to keep quiet about what's happened,

948
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: which means that the guys who killed Pat weren't allowed

949
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: to and or the guys who knew what had happened

950
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: and how Pat had died weren't allowed to tell Pat's brother, Kevin,

951
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: what had happened, even though he was in the same unit.

952
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: So there's this like really ghastly situation where Kevin's like

953
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: going to the gym and working out with the guys

954
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: who shot his brother to death and like doesn't know it,

955
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: which is just super gross. That's I didn't know this part. Yeah,

956
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: I actually had no idea that his brother was in

957
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: the army, but yeah, that's just fucking ghoulish. Yeah. Steven Elliott,

958
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: one of the rangers who was in the jeep you

959
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: know that Pat got killed by their fusillade, said he

960
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: and others were ordered quote not to discuss the incident

961
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 1: with folks outside the unit, and that it was mainly

962
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: because it was still under investigation. He says, I was

963
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: operating on a certain level of naivete. I believe senior

964
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: leaders were trying to protect the family, and I know

965
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 1: and I had no idea they were being deceived at

966
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: any point, but they were. Kevin was flown back with

967
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: Pat's casket from Afghanistan, and the one thing he asked

968
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 1: of the men he left behind was if they would

969
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: please find Pat's journal and send it back to him.

970
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: We've already read a couple of excerpts. Pat was a

971
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: really dedicated diarist, you know, uh, and it was important

972
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: for Kevin to read his brother's last few words. Of course,

973
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: the Army burned Pat's journal, They burned all of his

974
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: clothing and body armor, and they sent his body back

975
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: naked in the casket. This was not normal procedure. They

976
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: burned it. Yeah, they burned all of his clothing, they

977
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: burned his journal, everything that was on his body. Yeah,

978
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's not procedure at all. No, No, what

979
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: they did was completely illegal and not at all normal.

980
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: The sergeant who burnt the stuff was told it was

981
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: for quote security purposes, but there was never any real

982
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: good explanation given. So this is one of the first

983
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: like things that happened that's like clearly like this is

984
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: not just somebody trying to delay the truth getting out.

985
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: This is like a cover up. Now. Yeah, yeah, I

986
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: mean it should be noted like even if you're wounded

987
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: or killed, they don't even burn like your bloody clothing,

988
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: they send it back. Yeah. So that's it's really weird

989
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: that they would do this and really just shows like

990
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: a lack of concern for you know, like the one

991
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: thing this kid asks as he's being sent back with

992
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: his dead brother is like, find his journal. And I

993
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: don't even think that message gets to the guy who's

994
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: burning you know, Pat's clothes, and you know, the sergeant

995
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: who's in charge of burning that ship should have known

996
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: something was going on. They're like, hey, I've never done

997
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: this before, but weird that this is the only time

998
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: this has happened. Yeah, it's weird that these desert pattern

999
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: camouflage to contain secrets that I'm not aware of. Um

1000
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: so stupid. Yeah, fratricide is a type of homicide. So

1001
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: General McCrystal and his men were obligated to inform c

1002
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: i D off what was suspective. They didn't do this

1003
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: and said they sent in an army lawyer, Major Charles

1004
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: kirch Meyer to basically muddy the waters enough that c

1005
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: I D would decide they weren't needed. Kirch Meyer was

1006
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: thanked for bea email by Crystal's legal advisor for quote

1007
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: keeping the c i D at bay. So those are

1008
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: the guys that you watch in your favorite old people

1009
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: shows about army detectives. So it's like the army equivalent

1010
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: of n c I S. Right, Yeah, that's the exact

1011
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: same thing. They They normally investigate any fifteen six investigation,

1012
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: like not necessarily a real investigation, but like a cursory glance. Yeah,

1013
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: and so basically Mcrystal sends this guy Kirchmeyer in to

1014
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: try and smooth over even that, so that they're really

1015
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: not looking at this case at all at first, and

1016
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: like I think they know at some point it's going

1017
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: to get investigated, but they're just trying to slow things down. Um,

1018
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: And I think it will become clear why in a

1019
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: little bit so the army hid the fact that Pat

1020
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: had died from friendly fire from his family for more

1021
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: than a month. This seems to be because the Bush

1022
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: administration wanted to ring every drop of good pr out

1023
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: of Tillman that they possibly could. So here's how krak

1024
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: Our describes what followed and like. The day after Tillman

1025
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: died in the Bush White House, approximately two emails discussing

1026
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: the situation were transmitted to receive by White House officials,

1027
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: including staffers from Bush's reelection campaign, who suggested to the

1028
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: president that it would be advantageous for him to respond

1029
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: to Tillman's death as quickly as possible. Genie Mammo, Bush's

1030
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: director of media affairs, sent an email to Lawrence de Rita,

1031
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: Rumsfeld's press secretary, asking for details about the tragedy so

1032
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: she could use them in a White House press release.

1033
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: By eleven forty a m. A statement about Tilman had

1034
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: been drafted and forwarded to Press Secretary Scott McCullen and

1035
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: Communications Director Dan Bartlett, who immediately approved the statement on

1036
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: behalf of President Bush and then disseminated it to the public,

1037
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: even though doing so violated the Military Family Peace of

1038
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: Mind Act. So, basically, according to a policy President George W.

1039
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: Bush had signed into law five months earlier, you were

1040
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: supposed to give families of war casualties twenty four hours

1041
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: to grieve in private before making a public announcement about

1042
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: their family member's death. So George W. Bush and his

1043
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: administration skirted the rule that they had put in place

1044
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: because Pat Tillman was so famous that they wanted to

1045
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: get out ahead of the story and release a statement early.

1046
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: They wanted to get out ahead of his parents morning. Yeah.

1047
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: Well you really, you really gotta you gotta pre empt

1048
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: that ship otherwise it's just gonna it's gonna look bad.

1049
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, nip all that crying right in the bud. Yeah,

1050
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 1: and it's it's all gross. The guy who rushed out

1051
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: the statement, or who the White House pinned the blame

1052
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: on for rushing out the statement illegally and early, said

1053
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: that he had done it because the story quote made

1054
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: the American people feel good about our country and our military,

1055
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: because again, at that point, the story was this war

1056
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: hero had charged up a hill to save his comrades

1057
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 1: and been you know, tragically killed in action being heroic,

1058
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: rather than shot dead by his own men in a

1059
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: in a terrible accident. So yeah, that's gross. It's really gross.

1060
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: That's like snidely whiplash level of villainy. Yeah. Yeah, and

1061
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: what comes next is even grosser because Stanley McCrystal puts

1062
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: Pat Tilman up for a Silver Star um and in

1063
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: the Silver Star Report they basically word it vaguely enough

1064
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: that it's evident to anybody reading it who doesn't know

1065
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: what really happened, that it would seem like Pat Tillman

1066
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: was killed like heroically trying to save you know, his buddies.

1067
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: But it's also written carefully enough that, like, it doesn't

1068
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: leave out the chance that he was killed by friendly fire.

1069
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 1: They don't state exactly who killed him. They just sort

1070
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: of leave it up to you to decide as the reader. Oh,

1071
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: they must be saying the Taliban killed him, but like

1072
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: they don't quite go and say it not normal at all. No, No,

1073
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: mccrystals knows that what he's doing is illegal and sketchy

1074
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: as hell, but he also doesn't want to look bad

1075
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: and figures that if they give this guy a medal,

1076
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: his family won't ask any questions about what happened. Yeah,

1077
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I knew me Crystal is a fucking asshole,

1078
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: but this is a whole new level. Yeah, this is

1079
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: really his like piata of being a douche bag um

1080
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: is like right here, it's it's pretty remarkable. So Tillman's

1081
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: death was good news for the Bush administration and for

1082
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: the Defense Department. The global warrant terror had started to

1083
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: look like a quagmire by that point, and Tillman's story

1084
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: was seen as having the potential to distract people. According

1085
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: to a two thousand seventeen Intercept article on the matter,

1086
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: Brigadier General Howard Yellen would later tell investigators that the

1087
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: view among the chain of command was that Tillman's death

1088
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: was like a steak dinner, albeit delivered on a garbage

1089
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: can cover, which is again a really gross way to

1090
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: talk about a man who just died. I mean, where

1091
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: the fund do they find people who talk about recently

1092
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: killed people like in this manner? Go on, I do

1093
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: want to be in that conversation when you're like talking

1094
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: about a man who's died under your command and you're like, well,

1095
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: it's like a steak dinner on a garbage can, and

1096
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: like how does everyone else in the room not be

1097
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: like what are you talking about? I want to be

1098
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: in a room full of people that are so inherently

1099
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: terrible that when somebody gets killed, you know, whether it

1100
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: be by the enemy or or by their own guys like, wait,

1101
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: how can we make this work for us? What's the spin? Yeah,

1102
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 1: supply side tragedy. Yeah, it's gross. I like that term. Also.

1103
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: Um So, Pat Tillman's memorial ceremony was hosted at the

1104
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: sand hoose A Rose Garden, which is very big venue,

1105
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: and the memorial ceremony was a huge event, lots of

1106
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: lots of cameras, lots of photo opportunities between famous people.

1107
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: John McCain was there, He gave a little speech. Um.

1108
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: A Navy seal who was a friend with Pat Tillman

1109
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: gave a speech at his memorial service based on lies.

1110
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: So the the Army lied to a Navy seal who

1111
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: was Pat Tillman's buddy about how he had died so

1112
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: that he could give a speech full of lies at

1113
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: this televised memorial service about how Pat Tilman had died.

1114
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: So it's just like this rivoros of grossness that keeps

1115
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: getting grosser and grosser and grosser. The further down we get,

1116
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 1: um like a layer of onions, except every new layer

1117
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: is also ship yeah yeah, yeah, And one of the

1118
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 1: layers in this ship onion is John McCain. He gave

1119
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: a speech at Pat Tillman's moral service and did not

1120
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: know at the time that Pat had been killed by

1121
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: friendly fire. He was angry when he found that at too,

1122
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: but afterwards he was shaking hands with the family after

1123
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: the service, and when he was talking with Pat's brother, Richard,

1124
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: his other brother, he noted that he he thought Pat

1125
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: was in a better place. And this really piste off

1126
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: Richard because Richard, like Pat, and like the rest of

1127
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: his family, was an atheist. So there was alcohol at

1128
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: this gathering um, and it was obviously an emotionally charged time.

1129
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: So when it was Richard's turn to yeah yeah, so

1130
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: Richard gets up and looks at John McCain and says,

1131
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: Pat's a fucking champion and always will be. Just make

1132
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: no mistake, he'd want me to say this he's not

1133
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 1: with God. He's fucking dead. He's not religious, so thanks

1134
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: for your thoughts, but he's fucking dead. Later, Richard wound

1135
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: up on the Bill Maher show and explained why he'd

1136
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: reacted that way quote, I found it offensive. It's like,

1137
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't go to church and say this is bullshit.

1138
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: So don't come to my brother's service and tell me

1139
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: he's with God. He's simply not with fucking God. Now,

1140
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: if you just have that bit of info, it maybe

1141
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: sounds like Richard's overreacting a little bit because he's, you know,

1142
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: he just lost his brother. There's a lot of reason

1143
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: that Richard and his family have to be pissed about

1144
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: religion being shoehorned into Pat tillman postmortem, because that's exactly

1145
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: what some asshole in the army did right after Pat died.

1146
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, there was a tiff between Kevin Tilman

1147
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 1: and Lieutenant Colonel named Ralph Kasarlitch or Coslar Rich Jesus,

1148
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: that's a weird last name. Anyway, I'm gonna I'm gonna

1149
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: read a quote from Where Men Find Glory about this

1150
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: little sort of debate that was sparked after Pat's death.

1151
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 1: Shortly before the second range of Italian sent Pat's remains

1152
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 1: home from Afghanistan. He coslar Rich was arranging a repatriation

1153
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: ceremony when a sergeant approached him and said, hey, sir,

1154
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: Kevin Tilman doesn't want a chaplain involved in his repatriation ceremony.

1155
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: When koslar Rich, an evangelical Christian, asked why, the sergeant replied, well,

1156
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: evidently he and his brother are atheists, that's the way

1157
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: they were raised, to which coslar Rich angrily declaimed, well,

1158
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: you can tell Specialist Tillman that the ceremony ain't about him.

1159
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: It is about everybody in the Joint Task Force bidding

1160
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 1: farewell to his brother. So there will be a chaplain

1161
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: and there will be prayers. So they may have been

1162
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: a little bit piste off about that. Yeah, yeah, cosl

1163
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: Rich is a real piece of ship. Uh And we'll

1164
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: be hearing from him just a little bit more and

1165
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: the rest of this story, so of course. Yeah. The

1166
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: fifteen six investigation into Pat Tillman's death was delivered exactly

1167
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: one day after his memorial service, which is fun timing.

1168
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: It noted that quote leadership played a critical role and

1169
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: greatly contributed to the fratricide incident that killed SPC. Pat Tillman.

1170
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: It noted that the rangers in the g who had

1171
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: killed Tillman quote never received effective enemy fire throughout the

1172
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: entire enemy contact, and as officially, Tillman's cause of death

1173
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: was the result of gross negligence. Now, this result was

1174
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: a real problem for the army because they had already

1175
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: awarded Tillman a Silver Star for courage in the face

1176
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: of enemy fire, and while he had shown courage, the

1177
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: fire had not come from any enemies. This was also

1178
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: a problem for General Stanley McCrystal because now everyone knew

1179
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: that he had lied about how Pat had died. So

1180
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld wanted to mitigate the damage

1181
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: from this bad pr so he scheduled the public disclosure

1182
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: of all of this, of the information about, like, you know,

1183
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: the gross negligence behind Pat's death. He scheduled the actual

1184
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: drop of that to the press for Saturday May twenty nine,

1185
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: which means he dropped it the Saturday before Memorial Day.

1186
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: So basically, the report that finally officially let everyone know

1187
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: Pat had died from friendly fire was released at the

1188
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: start of a three day weekend, Assuming that all of

1189
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: the journalists would be too drunk to write anything about it.

1190
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: There was a formally the case they do like some

1191
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: kind of weekend dump to try to Yeah, I mean,

1192
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: that's that's just general press wisdom. If you've got shitty news,

1193
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: you try to put it out where no one's going

1194
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: to know. You would just hope that the military would

1195
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: be above that when releasing information about the death of

1196
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: a human being. But I mean, who knows. You know,

1197
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: history says otherwise, History says otherwise. So there was a

1198
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,439
Speaker 1: press conference and a Ranger spokesman did announce Pat's death,

1199
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: you know, by friendly fire, openly, but he took no questions.

1200
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: And after the press conference, Pentagon officials emailed each other

1201
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: congratulations on limiting the damn it of the results of

1202
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: the fifteen six Way to Go guy, we did it.

1203
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: We covered up the death of one of our own. Yeah.

1204
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: An Army colonel noted in an email that quote the

1205
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: story will run hot today and diminish over the weekend.

1206
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: A sitcom public affairs officer said that a recent terrorist

1207
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: attack that had happened in Saudi Arabia would also help

1208
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: to dilute the story of how Pat had really died,

1209
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: So that was good. It was really worked out for

1210
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: the army um attack. Yeah. Yeah, And you would think

1211
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: at this point that after all that Army funk ups

1212
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: had cost the Tillman family, the least that the Army

1213
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: could do was not funk up delivering the news of

1214
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: how he had been killed to the family. What are

1215
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: the odds that they would make the same basic mistake

1216
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: twice and let the press know before letting, say, Pat

1217
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: Tillman's own mother know crucial detail about how her son

1218
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: had died, which is exactly what's happened. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,

1219
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: she found out that her son had died by friendly

1220
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: fire when a reporter called her asking for a comment.

1221
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: Army just didn't get to her in time. So yeah,

1222
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: it really had to you know, get in front of

1223
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: that story. And by the story, I mean his morning

1224
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: parents again. Yeah. One of the things that's really impressive

1225
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: about this is that it really took everything misfiring at

1226
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: once that could have misfired to really make this as

1227
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: offensive a co option of a human being's legacy is possible. Like,

1228
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that's most remarkable about this.

1229
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: I think misfire is not the right term, because all

1230
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: of these steps were completely on purpose. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

1231
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: You right, the only accident was his actual death. Everything

1232
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: after that, everything else is just people being actively fucking

1233
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: terrible to one another. Yeah, you're right, it's weird. I

1234
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: even like, I don't know, it's that like sort of

1235
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: attitude towards the military that I grew up with, where like,

1236
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 1: even when I know how fucked up a story like

1237
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: this is, I keep trying to find ways that it's

1238
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,959
Speaker 1: not quite as bad, and like, no, it's really bad.

1239
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: Like if I hadn't spent almost a decade in the army,

1240
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: I would assume that they had the best intention and

1241
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,919
Speaker 1: the just kind of sucked it up along the way.

1242
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: But I've kind of learned that they are just assholes.

1243
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: For for the most part, it's not obviously not everyday people,

1244
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: but when you get further and further up, it's like

1245
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: being in a room full of politicians, good things don't happen.

1246
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: It's the same thing as like you go into a

1247
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: Walmart or whatever and you talk to a person who

1248
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: works there and you can make a human connection and

1249
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: like talk to a human being, But like the people

1250
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: up at corporate like it's just once your job is

1251
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 1: so abstract from the human beings that your job is about.

1252
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: You do ship like this because it makes sense. You're

1253
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: not like co opting a human beings. Yeah, exactly, there's

1254
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: a way to rationalize it. And this thing got rationalized,

1255
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: all to Helen back. Um. So, the first several investigations

1256
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: into Pat Tillman's death were very sloppy and incomplete. The

1257
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: third investigation was conducted by that guy Kaslo Rich who

1258
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. Um. It was apparently very very

1259
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: sloppy and did not answer a lot of important questions

1260
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: like why did you burn my son's armor and clothing

1261
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: and stuff? But you know, why are you burning the

1262
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: evidence of an investigation? Why was the evidence lit on fire?

1263
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: But it did lead to some discipline. Seven rangers were

1264
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: disciplined for their part in Pat's death, most of them

1265
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: lost rancor were kicked back into the regular army. That's

1266
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: what happened to the saw gunner who killed Pat. But

1267
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: none of these investigations did much to help explain why

1268
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: four highly trained rangers and machine gun to comrade from

1269
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: twenty feet away. More troubling to the Tillman family, nothing

1270
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: yet released explained at all why Pat had been shipped

1271
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: home nude, his notebook and clothing burned. Why they hadn't

1272
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 1: been told that he died from friendly fire until a

1273
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 1: month later? Uh? And why he had been nominated for

1274
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: a Silver Star, presumably as a method of like covering

1275
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: up what had happened. None of this was explained, so

1276
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: eventually the Defense Departments Inspector General agreed to carry out

1277
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: a fourth investigation. According to Sports Illustrated Quote, the Army

1278
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: finally admitted it had violated its own regulations by waiting

1279
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: more than a month to inform the Tillmans that their

1280
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: son had diet as a result of suspected friendly fire,

1281
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: but only out of a desire to wait until it

1282
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: had gathered all the facts. As for the burning of

1283
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 1: the uniform and body armor that might have shown bullet evidence,

1284
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 1: the Army counter that it was done only because the

1285
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 1: bloodied gear was considered a potential bio hazard and hygiene

1286
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 1: issue that they might stir emotion, and because officers in

1287
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: the field had already determined that fratricide was a foregone conclusion,

1288
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: which is about as bullshit and answer as you can

1289
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: get for that. Um yeah, I mean they knew its

1290
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: fratricide within an hour, I'm willing when they went over

1291
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: there and found his dead body next to the guy

1292
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: that was alive and said, hey, you shot him. Yeah,

1293
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: it's just gross. Um. And it took four investigations for

1294
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: the family to start to get an idea of how

1295
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: gross it was. And there's this guy, caused the Rich as,

1296
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: I he's not a huge part of this, but I

1297
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: want to keep drilling back on him because he's a

1298
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: real piece of shit. Because the general who conducted that

1299
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: fourth investigation actually questioned Cousler Rich about his shitty investigation,

1300
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: and during it he whined that the Timan family wouldn't

1301
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: stop asking questions about how their son had died because

1302
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 1: they were atheists, and he thought that, like, that's why

1303
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: they just they're just angry that they don't have any

1304
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: peace and so they're they're taking it out on the army.

1305
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: And not only did he say that angry that they're

1306
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: asking questions about how their son died because their godless seasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1307
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: that's that's basically what's what's exactly what happened. And he

1308
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: went on ESPN in two thousand six and continued to

1309
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: say this ship like so in an in an ESPN interview,

1310
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: This lieutenant colonel is like talking smack about the family

1311
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: of a dead soldier for wanting to know how their

1312
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: son had died. He said, Yeah, Well, if you were

1313
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 1: an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die,

1314
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,959
Speaker 1: what is there to go to? Nothing? You're worm dirt.

1315
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: So for their son to die for nothing and now

1316
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: he is no more, that's pretty hard to get your

1317
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: head around that, you know. So, I don't know. I

1318
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine

1319
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: that would be pretty tough. Well, it's harder with guys

1320
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: like you, Kasler Rich. Yeah, it is harder for you know,

1321
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: any human garbage people like him like him to empathize

1322
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: with other people. Yeah, it's it's yeah. So Pat's mother,

1323
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: Mary is the real hero in all of this. She

1324
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: spent the next four years of her life investigating Pat's

1325
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: death and the cover up behind it. Uh Mary felt

1326
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: that the Bush administration had used her son as a

1327
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: recruiting tool when he was alive and a patriotic distraction

1328
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: once he died. She told Sports Illustrated, they attached themselves

1329
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: to his virtue and then threw him under the bus.

1330
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,439
Speaker 1: They had no regard for him as a person. He'd

1331
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 1: hate to be used for a lie. I don't care

1332
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: if they put a bullet through my head in the

1333
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: middle of the night. I'm not stopping. So Mary kept

1334
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: up the pressure, gradually forcing the military to conduct three

1335
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: additional investigations for a total of seven. His death became

1336
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: about more than just one incident a friendly fire. It

1337
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: was tied to a pattern of behavior among Bush administration

1338
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 1: officials and army officials, a pattern of self serving deception,

1339
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: using the real tragedies experienced by individual soldiers in order

1340
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: to deflect criticism from the disastrous war that embarked on.

1341
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: This culminated in a series of congressional investigation starting in

1342
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: two thousand seven. Rumsfeldt took the stand during these investigations,

1343
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: and when he was asked when he'd learned how Toman

1344
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: died at Rumsfeld said, I don't recall when I was told,

1345
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: and I don't recall who told me. I know that

1346
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: I would not engage in a cover up, which is

1347
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 1: interesting because Rumsfeld had taken the time to write Pat

1348
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: Tilman a personal letter when he had enlisted, and the

1349
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense had kept regular tabs on Pat's career.

1350
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: Pat's mother, Mary, believes that heads would have rolled if Rumsfeld,

1351
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,959
Speaker 1: a notorious micromanager, hadn't been in the loop about Pat's death,

1352
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: which seems likely, especially since his office was involved in

1353
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: all these email conversations about how to spend his life

1354
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: and his death. When he spoke to Congress, Pat's brother, Kevin,

1355
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: was notably less polite. He said, quote, the fact that

1356
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: the Army, in what appears to be others attempted to

1357
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: hijack his virtue and his legacy is simply horrific. The

1358
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: least this country can do for him in return is

1359
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: to uncover who is responsible for his death, who lied,

1360
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,439
Speaker 1: and who covered it up, and who had instigated those

1361
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 1: lies and benefited from them, then ensure that justice is

1362
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: meeted out to the culpable. So Mary did eventually get

1363
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: something approaching the truth about what had happened to her son.

1364
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 1: It took like seven investigations and two congressional inquiries, but

1365
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: she got more or less most of the information she

1366
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: was looking for. The investigation revealed that one day before

1367
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: the Secretary of the Army had certified Pat silver star,

1368
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: General McCrystal had learned from Rumpsfeld's office that President Bush

1369
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,479
Speaker 1: planned to talk about Pat Tillman at the White House

1370
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:13,439
Speaker 1: Correspondence Association dinner. Crystal was scared that the President would

1371
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: say something about Pratt's bravery under enemy fire because he

1372
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: knew that the truth would eventually come out and make

1373
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: the President look like a liar, So he sent a

1374
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 1: memo to sent Com Commander General John Abizad, who sent

1375
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: the memo onward to the White House. Which means, of

1376
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: course that Rumsfeld and Bush and everybody else from pretty

1377
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: much the beginning knew that this was a friendly fire

1378
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: issue because Bush changed the line in his speech to

1379
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: leave out enemy fire. So yeah, it's gross. It's a

1380
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 1: gross story. It's gross all the way down. Like, you know,

1381
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: the second I heard you say, Rumsfeld and says that

1382
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 1: he didn't know. You know, Rumsfeld is widely known for

1383
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 1: being a trustworthy guy, so you know, I was gonna

1384
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: give him the benefit of the doubt. Um, But I honestly,

1385
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: up until now, I had no idea that Bush personally

1386
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 1: was involved. Oh yeah, I mean, we don't know what

1387
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: he himself did, but we know that his speech writers

1388
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: changed a speech he was supposed to give as a

1389
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: result of this. I mean, I guess he probably would

1390
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: have asked something about the famous guy who he had

1391
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: been planning to talk about why the line was suddenly different. Um,

1392
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: maybe not. Maybe he wasn't that curious a guy, but

1393
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,799
Speaker 1: it seems really yeah, I mean, I don't know, Tillman

1394
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 1: was pretty famous. It seems pretty clear that at least

1395
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: Rumpsfeld knew what was going on, and Stanley McCrystal sure

1396
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: as hell knew what was happening. In July two eight,

1397
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: the Congressional Oversight Committee investigating Tillman's death issued its report.

1398
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 1: It noted that while the White House had been intensely

1399
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: interested in the first reports of Tillman's death after it

1400
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: became clear he died a friendly fire quote, the White

1401
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 1: House could not produce a single email or document relating

1402
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: to any discussion about Corporal Tillman's death by friendly fire.

1403
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 1: The intense interest that initially characterized the White Houses and

1404
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: Defense departments reaction to Corporal Tillman's death was followed by

1405
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: a stunning lack of curiosity about emerging reports of fratricide

1406
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 1: and an incomprehensible carelessness in incompetence in handling the sensitive information.

1407
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: So in the end, there was a tiny bit of

1408
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: justice done. The hammer wound up falling on a general

1409
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: named kin Singer, who had been part of the cover up,

1410
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: but not really a major part. Crack Hour suggests that

1411
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: this was because kin Singer was already retired at the

1412
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: time of the investigation. No one involved though that much more. Yeah, yeah,

1413
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: you picked the retired guy and you yell at him,

1414
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: and then it's fine, it's fine. And uh, I'm going

1415
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 1: to assume all these lieutenant colonels they didn't even get

1416
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: a letter of reprimand or anything. No, No, I think

1417
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: most of them were full bird colonels within a year

1418
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: or so of this all going down. Ah, yes, of

1419
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: course yea. And mccrystal's career definitely didn't get hurt by

1420
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: this at all because I end up being under his

1421
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 1: command Afghanistan. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He wound up

1422
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,560
Speaker 1: being in charge of the entire war effort in Afghanistan

1423
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: for a little bit, and then he stopped being in

1424
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: charge of the war in Afghanistan when a Rolling Stone

1425
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:55,679
Speaker 1: reporter was there for both of those things. Oh yeah,

1426
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 1: what was that like when the fucking story came out

1427
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,759
Speaker 1: that he was talking smack about Barack Obama I thought, personally,

1428
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: I thought it was hilarious. Yeah, not not that he

1429
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: was shipped talking the president as a as you know,

1430
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 1: a field grade officer, but how much he must have

1431
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: thought of himself to think he could get away with that, Yeah,

1432
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: because he was basically attacking the entire civilian leadership back

1433
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: in Washington in front of a reporter for Rolling Stone, Like, yeah,

1434
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: it's like he was trying to do a MacArthur in Korea.

1435
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: But like Obama slapped his dick and fired him, and

1436
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: his leadership of the war in general is fucking terrible.

1437
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: So I was kind of glad to see him go. Yeah.

1438
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: So he's he's about as close as we get in

1439
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,919
Speaker 1: this story to an individual who got some sort of justice.

1440
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: So that's good. Nobody winds up looking good about this.

1441
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 1: Like even like John McCain, when he found out that

1442
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: the death had come from friendly fire, briefly took an

1443
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 1: interest in like trying to figure out what had actually happened.

1444
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 1: But Mary Tillman says that he kind of stopped talking

1445
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: to him after he ran for president in two thousand eight,

1446
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 1: because you know, that would have been bad for his

1447
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,839
Speaker 1: presidential runs. So like the the story of Pat Tillman,

1448
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 1: from beginning to end, is a story of like a

1449
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 1: nice guy trying to do the right thing and a

1450
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: bunch of people trying to co opt his legacy in

1451
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: whatever way they can and then running away as soon

1452
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: as you know any threat to their own careers is posed.

1453
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: It's just like so much grossness and cowardice in this

1454
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 1: little story. I had no idea. I think that's one

1455
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: of the thing that pissed me off the most about

1456
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,440
Speaker 1: the whole thing when he became a poster boy recently. Again, yeah,

1457
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: I think we're going to continue to see that if

1458
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 1: the NFL continues to be at like the center of

1459
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: a big cultural issue in this country. Is like people

1460
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: bringing up Pat Tillman. So the next time you see that,

1461
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: remember Pat Tillman wasn't a big fan of the Army,

1462
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: hated George Bush, thought the War on Terror was mostly bullshit.

1463
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a gross story. But the next time

1464
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: you see someone you know trying to bring Pat Tillman

1465
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: up a sort of an argument against why football players

1466
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: shouldn't kneel whenever the hell they want to, um, just

1467
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 1: slap him in the face. But with this podcast and

1468
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 1: not your hand because yeah, it's it's kind of disgusting.

1469
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 1: It's not even just the NFL, it's like literally anything,

1470
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: Like Kaepernick hasn't been in the NFL in years, Yeah,

1471
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: and he still gets trotted out because apparently soldiers have

1472
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: a monopoly and what sacrifices. Yeah, and you can't possibly

1473
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 1: sacrifice if you're not dead, Yeah, and you can't. Like

1474
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: it's this. I think the thing that frustrates me most

1475
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: about the Tilman story is just like the lack of

1476
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 1: respect of like, Okay, this guy had his own beliefs

1477
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: and own reasons for doing things, and like we can't

1478
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: even let him be remembered the way he would want

1479
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: to be remembered or for the things he actually believed.

1480
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 1: We're going to turn him into a political prop whenever

1481
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: we need a political prop, because everybody remembers his name

1482
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: and his g I Joe phase. It's it's frustrating, Yeah,

1483
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: it's we talk more about Pat Tilman, and obviously now

1484
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: we're guilty of that because we're talking about Pat Tillman. Um,

1485
01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 1: we talk more about Kaepernick kneeling for a fucking magical

1486
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 1: song that makes the freedom come. But like, we talk

1487
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: more about this ship than we do like the fact

1488
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: that we're still fighting the war in Afghanistan. Yeah, we've

1489
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,559
Speaker 1: had this conversation more than is seventeen years too long

1490
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: to be at war? Which maybe maybe find out more

1491
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: next year when we have our first child younger than

1492
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: the war he's fighting in, which that's going to be

1493
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: an exciting moment for this whole country. List now, because

1494
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,839
Speaker 1: I mean you can list at seventeen with your parents signature.

1495
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 1: I did. Well, if you're seventeen right now, go and

1496
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: list and get yourself to Afghanistan and uh send me

1497
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: a message when you are officially in a war that

1498
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 1: you're younger then and we'll I think all those guys

1499
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 1: who who wanted to deploy so that and and fight

1500
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 1: the enemy away from home so his kids didn't have

1501
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:56,480
Speaker 1: to fight them really feels like an asshole. Now. Yeah,

1502
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,879
Speaker 1: that was that Onion article like young man like marches

1503
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: same pass that his like dad marched in two thousand

1504
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: six or something like yeah, oh man, Yeah, do you

1505
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: follow the army's social media accounts? Oh no, no, not

1506
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: since they posted those gross pictures of the eight in

1507
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 1: Wardog firing a bunch of stuff, and we're like they

1508
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: recently accidentally onion themselves, like they posted this picture of

1509
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 1: like father and son in Afghanistan like it was a

1510
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:29,760
Speaker 1: good thing. Oh no, that's really strategy. Well, and it's

1511
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 1: also like it's such a bad idea to let that

1512
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 1: happen because it's just a bad story waiting to happen,

1513
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: like what happened with Kevin and Pat where it's just like, yeah,

1514
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 1: these guys are brothers, will let him serve in the

1515
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 1: same unit, and it's like, well, that's not going to

1516
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 1: go well. Well, the whole keeping a country at war

1517
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:50,480
Speaker 1: for it almost two decades, I mean, it's doing irreferable

1518
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: damage to our society as well, and our attitude towards

1519
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:58,719
Speaker 1: like it's perfect, Like nobody's processing like maybe we shouldn't

1520
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: be in a war that is generational. Yeah, I mean

1521
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 1: that's a conversation you would think we'd start having at

1522
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 1: some point, um, but I don't think we are going

1523
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 1: to because yeah, if we have the conversation, we hate

1524
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 1: the troops. And if we have the conversation, then like

1525
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: what else are we going to spend that money on healthcare?

1526
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,719
Speaker 1: Of course not? Yeah, no, no, have you tried picking

1527
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: yourself up by your bootstraps? There alright, Joe, that's all

1528
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 1: I got for us for today. You want to plug

1529
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:30,679
Speaker 1: some plug doubles, Yeah, if you want to hear about

1530
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:34,560
Speaker 1: a significantly less fucked up tour of duty in Afghanistan.

1531
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 1: I wrote a book called The Hooligans of Kandahar, and

1532
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 1: it's available wherever you get your books. On my podcast

1533
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: lines Lent by Donkeys podcast or we talk about things

1534
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 1: kind of like this and try to get some humor

1535
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: out of the the fucked up aspects of military history.

1536
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. You can find me on Twitter at

1537
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,839
Speaker 1: I right, okay. You can find us on the internet

1538
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 1: at behind the Bastards dot com or we'll have all

1539
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: the sources and images for this episode. You can find

1540
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and uh Instagram at at Bastards pod

1541
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: and you can find shirts that we make that you

1542
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 1: can wear on ONTI public Behind the Bastards buy our shirts.

1543
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 1: We don't give Joe any money. If you buy a shirt,

1544
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 1: you can buy Joe's book and then a couple of shirts,

1545
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:17,759
Speaker 1: and you can dress the book up in a shirt

1546
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:19,760
Speaker 1: and you can have a good old fashioned shirt book.

1547
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: Just don't burn the shirt, yeah, don't burn don't burn

1548
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 1: the shirts unless it's well, I mean, you can burn

1549
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: your own shirts. Unless it's evidence, we should probably get

1550
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,719
Speaker 1: rid of it. Yeah, yes, always get rid of evidence.

1551
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: That's been our motto here from the start. Joe, thank

1552
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: you for being on today. It was green great talking

1553
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: to you and yeah, that's it for us today. I

1554
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 1: love about h