1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners today is Uh, Well, 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: we have quite a guest. He's an extraordinary writer and author. 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: He is a professor of journalism at u C. Berkeley. Uh. 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: He's somebody I've known for quite a while who I 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: think whose writing is changing the world, and that is 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Michael Pollen. So, Michael, thank you so much for joining 15 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: me today. I'm very grateful for your time. Yeah, we 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: do go back. I guess too, when I was writing 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: about medical marijuana, right, I think I interviewed you then 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: as exactly I was going to bring that up, which 19 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: is it was back in the spring of nineties seven, 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: and I think you had just maybe maybe around that 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: time you had published the piece on Poppies and Opium 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: and Harper's which is the chapter of your new book, 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: This is your Mind on Plans, And I had put 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: together that ballot initiative in California on legalizing medical marijuana, 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: hadn't drafted it. That had been a local activist, Dennis 26 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: to Rome. So you came to see me. We spent 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: a couple of hours together my office, and we're beginning 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: to plan out the next cycle. And I think since 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: then we've crossed passed over the years. But let me 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: open up by asking you. I mean, the next thing 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: I saw you writing about drugs was the Bodany of Desire, 32 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: where you wrote about what apples, potatoes, tulips and mean, Well, 33 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: what I remembered about that piece I remember sitting around 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: everywhere after you did it, was that what you did 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: was really when you raised the question, is this victory 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: for Proposition to fifteen the meddical marijuana and they should 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: have been California twenty five years ago, did it represent 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: a tipping point or beginning of a tipping point at 39 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: ending the war on drugs? And the second key point 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: you made there was that what it had really done 41 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: was to open up a dialogue between the people and 42 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: the government, between the cops and the growers, and the 43 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: docks and the patients and you name it. And I 44 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: just thought that in both rowse respects, it was prescient. 45 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: But I'm curious now when you look back on these 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: last twenty five years. I mean, marijuana has not been 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: a focus of your writing in recent years, But what 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: do you think about this evolution? I mean, what's I 49 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: Do you have concerns about it? Do you feel very 50 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: good about it? I basically feel good about it. I 51 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: think that what we learned from that episode was that 52 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: a very important tool for changing attitudes towards drugs was 53 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: um And this was your your idea, I think, was 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: to reframe marijuana as a medicine rather than a kind 55 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: of cheech and chong, you know, fun thing. And when 56 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: the public began to see that it was helping people, 57 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: and then it was aids patients of course, and some 58 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: people with epilepsy UM and these were mostly anecdotal stories 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: about how they had helped people, but that completely changed 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: the public's attitude. The simple demonization of these substances became 61 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: much harder. When we began to think of them as 62 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: medicines for some people, and I think it's that same 63 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: game plan, and I don't use that word in a 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: cynical way, has really driven the shifts around psychedelics too. 65 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: What's interesting is there was never as much science around 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: cannabis as a medicine. It was really largely anecdotal. It 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: was a citizen science kind of movement, whereas the science 68 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: around psychedelics has been um, you know, more conventional control, 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: double blind studies. Yeah, I mean in a way, right, 70 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: because you also had marijuana was in the farm with 71 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: copia until the twenties or thirties. Oh yeah, there was history, 72 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: There were studies out there. There was the fact that 73 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: marin all, that synthetic version of marijuana was already available. 74 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: They're oncologists already saying they were using it, and in fact, 75 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, it was really a previous generation before me. 76 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: That helps shift opinion on medical marijuana because with ballot initiatives, 77 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: you weren't really going to run a ballot initiative unless 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: you went into it with already or more public support. 79 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: I think somewhat similarly with the psychedelic stuff. You know, 80 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: those local initiatives that began to win in Denver, and 81 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: in Oakland and now the big state one in ore 82 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: again last year. I mean, those were doable because of 83 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: the work of others. And when I look at the 84 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: work of others, I give a huge amount of credit 85 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: to Rick Dobblin's organization maps. I give a lot of 86 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: credit to the researchers, the Roland Griffiths and Bob Jesse's 87 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,559 Speaker 1: and the others. But your book had to change your mind. 88 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: I just think that had an explosive impact just personally. 89 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: The number of people would come up to me and say, Ethan, 90 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: I just read Michael Pollan's latest book. I mean, where 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: can I get some mushrooms? I've never done them, or 92 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: I haven't done them in three or four years, So 93 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 1: I mean, what do you think about that? I really 94 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: think that you've been this major catalytic writer about food. 95 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm the worst dilemma. But that book was extraordinary in 96 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: its impact. Well, I you know, I do hear that 97 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: a lot, and people such as the couple that started 98 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: the organ initiative, you know, have told me that it 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: was reading not that book, but the New Yorker piece 100 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: that preceded the book that inspired them. And it's incredibly gratifying. 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean, people write things and nothing happens all the time. 102 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: To have anything happened. But I also feel that I 103 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: was amplifying the voices of the researchers because these were 104 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: incredible UM findings, and I would interview the patients and 105 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: tell their stories, and that's really what moved the needle. 106 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: As with medical marijuana, hearing about individuals whose lives were 107 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: transformed for the better. There's nothing more powerful than that. 108 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: And of course that's what happened in Oregon, right. I mean, 109 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: they began that ballot initiative underwater. They were at forty 110 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: six percent, I think, and they did have the resources 111 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: that you didn't have back in the nineties. UM. They 112 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: had a lot of advertising money. But what did they 113 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: do with it? Well, they told the stories of cancer 114 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: patients whose fear of death had been removed by their 115 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: use of of psilocybin and picked up ten points in 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: a very short amount of time. So the public is 117 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: ready to hear these stories. I think the public is 118 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: ahead of the politicians on drugs, and uh, they know 119 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: that the drug war has been a failure, and they 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: see the collateral damage, and they know now that the 121 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: lies they've been told about drugs are just that, and 122 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: they're much less likely to buy the propaganda. In the 123 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: beginning of your new book, this is your minor Plans, 124 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: you write, My wager in writing this book is that 125 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: the decline of the drug war, with its brutally simplistic 126 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: narratives about your brain on drugs, has opened to space 127 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: in which we can tell some other, much more interesting 128 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: stories about our ancient real aationship with the mind altering 129 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: plans and fun guy with which nature has blessed us. 130 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: And that opening to the book is actually a good 131 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: description for why I'm doing this podcast now. It's the 132 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: same thing, and we need this new conversation. I mean, 133 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 1: I think just ending the drug war is not enough, 134 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: because these are powerful substances. They're going to be part 135 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: of our lives. They're going to be accessible. We're gonna 136 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: have to talk to our children about them. Uh, and 137 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: we have to learn how to live with them, which is, 138 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, not obvious. Yeah, well you know. So let 139 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: me give you a little shit about something and see 140 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: how you respond to it. Right, You wrote an our 141 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: bed piece in the spring of twenty nineteen, I think 142 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: in New York Times, Right, and it was a reaction 143 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: to Denver legalizing uh, you know, plant medicines or philocipic mushrooms. 144 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: I cant remember was Narrow Shore and you said, hold 145 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: on here, you know, maybe the country isn't ready for 146 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: this debate. And I was thinking, oh, well, Michael's just 147 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: covering his asks. His book is having such a huge impact. 148 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: The last thing he needs is to be identified as 149 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: a new Timothy Leary of psychedelics. But ay, tell me 150 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: what you were thinking then and what you're thinking now 151 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: about this, because now you're talking about opening up to debate. Yeah. 152 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: So Um. At the time, I was strongly influenced by 153 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: the scientists that I had been interviewing and that were 154 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: really at the heart of my book, and they were 155 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: all very nervous. Um. You know, this path had been 156 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: laid out by Rick Doblin, originally of f d A approval. Right, 157 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: We're gonna go through the phase one to three of 158 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: the trials, then we're gonna get FDA approval, and then 159 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: we'll reschedule psychedelics. And the fear then was that if 160 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: this became a popular issue rather than this more or 161 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: less hidden regulatory path, um, it would blow it. It 162 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: would politicize psychedelics, and that I expected a backlash. I 163 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: expected us to fall into the old culture war drug 164 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: war narrative, and that suddenly this research, which had not 165 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: been controversial, would get to be controversial. So I was 166 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: in effect being protective of this research, which I thought 167 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: was so important and so promising that I didn't want 168 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: anything to get in the way. As it turned out, 169 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: that process is going on. It hasn't been affected for 170 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: reasons I don't entirely understand. The Republicans have chosen not 171 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: to fight this, uh, you know, this suing for peace 172 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: in the drug war that's happening. I think they've decided 173 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: it's a losing issue. Uh. And and given that the 174 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: how how the culture war is raging, it's very interesting 175 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: they're leaving this one alone. And in fact, psychedelic research 176 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: has has friends on the right. Rick Perry, the former 177 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: Energy secretary and governor of Texas, as a supporter of 178 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: psychedelic medicine. Rebecca Mercer gave money to MAPS, and Steve 179 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: Bannon says friendly things about it. So, as you know, 180 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: and I evolved, I mean, what can I say. I 181 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: still don't support the commercialization of psychedelics. I don't think 182 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: that cannabis is the proper model. And cannabis you know 183 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: where I live. You know their billboards on the Bay Bridge, 184 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, promising delivery of cannabis within two hours if 185 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: you call them, like you know, by the time you 186 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: get home in traffic, it'll be there. There'll be a 187 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,119 Speaker 1: guy you're on a bicycle with your with your cannabis. 188 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: And um. That kind of active promotion of psychedelics is uh, 189 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, maybe I'll be ready for that 190 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: in a year too, but I'm not yet. And I 191 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: think that decriminalization is very different. And I see all 192 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: this capital moving into the psychedelic space, most of it 193 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: for medical treatment. And I do believe there is a 194 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: place or there should be access for psychedelics for people 195 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: who are not clinically you know, mentally ill. Um. I 196 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: think they have a lot to offer all of us. 197 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: But I'd love to find a model that is well 198 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: suited to psychedelics, to magic mushrooms, and not as many 199 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: people in the cannabis world want to do follow that 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: path so that the magic mushrooms are sold right next to, uh, 201 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: to the cannabis, you know, vape cartridges in the in 202 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: the dispensaries. Um, that doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, 203 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Michael, I'm actually fairly sympathetic to 204 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: your viewpoint. I'm also wary of the kind of over 205 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: the counter commercialization and advertising. I think with marijuana, we 206 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: recognize that it was inevitable and there probably was no 207 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: other better model, and you just have to hope for 208 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: good regulatory approaches at the state and ultimately the federal level. 209 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I do look at places like the Netherlands 210 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: or Jamaica where they do seem to sell magic mushrooms 211 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: in the same places that oftentimes cannabis is Clause I 212 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: legally available, and those don't seem to be an issue yet. 213 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: But I agree it has to be careful and I 214 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: don't want to see that that backlash either. I mean, 215 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: that definitely scares me that possibility. Right, We went through 216 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: that backlash once, of course, and uh, it could happen again. Um. 217 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: You know, this country is prone to moral panics around 218 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: drugs and it has been for a very long time. 219 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: What's happening with the truffles in Amsterdam though, that's a 220 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: that's a pretty weak form of psilocybin. You have to 221 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: consume enough truffles to get a stomach ache for it 222 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: to actually work. And you know, some of these substances 223 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: are you know, LSD is obviously very powerful, and uh, 224 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: I do think that we have to find, you know, 225 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: the proper cultural container. I was very influenced by rereading 226 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Andrew Wild's book The Natural Mind. It's like fifty years old. 227 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: It's a very wise book, and he talks a lot, 228 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: since he's done all this research in South America of 229 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: what we have to learn from indigenous cultures about how 230 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: to safely use these powerful psychedelics. Well, you know, I'll 231 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: tell you Michael Andrew was my first guest. I did 232 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: it in part because he has such a huge influence 233 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: on me back in the eighties reading The Natural Mind 234 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: at the time, and then his other books Chocolate to 235 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: Morphine in the Marriage of the Sun of the Moon. 236 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean. The other thing, of course, is you know, 237 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: he goes from drug writing to writing about integrative medicine, 238 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: and he and he writes about coffee for example, which 239 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: I will get into that shortly. And you also go, 240 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, you do the stuff on marijuana, but the 241 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: embody desire ardening in this and then you become you know, 242 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: the world's leading writer about food stuff. But I wonder 243 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: how you think about your back and forth in the 244 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: merging of these two issues. Yeah, well, for me, there 245 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: of a piece. I mean, you have to go back 246 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: in time to the beginning of my writing, which was 247 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: very much about uh, you know, I began writing in 248 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: the garden. I was very interested in the symbiotic relationship 249 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: between us and plants and how plants have evolved to 250 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: gratify our needs and desires. And that's a very successful strategy. 251 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: Just look at the edible grasses, which now you know, 252 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: have this huge amount of territory. We a lot to 253 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: them because we depend on them for corn and rice. 254 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: This has been a really winning strategy to hitch their 255 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: wagon to ours. And so if you're interested in that, 256 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: if that's the kind of trunk of my work, of 257 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: the tree of my work, this interest in plants and people, 258 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: eth nobotany, you might call it. UM. One big branch 259 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: off of that trunk is food and agriculture. And I 260 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: spent a couple of years writing about that, and I 261 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: still do from time to time. I'm still very interested 262 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: in that, and that's kind of the most profound way 263 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: we change nature. UM is through our eating and what 264 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: our agriculture does to the planet. Um, we changed the land, 265 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: we changed the atmosphere, we changed the composition of species, 266 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: so it was kind of natural. I would dig into 267 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: that first and and wrote three or four books about that. 268 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: But another really interesting thing, We use plants for us 269 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: to change consciousness. And this turns out, as Andy says, 270 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: in the natural mind to be virtually universal. And so 271 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: that's another interesting branch um of our use of plants 272 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: and their cleverness in enlisting us in their their mission 273 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: to expand their habitat. They're also, you know, both things 274 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: we ingest that changes us. And finally, they're both critically 275 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: involved in health, physical health for the most part with food, 276 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: and mental health for the most part in drugs. But 277 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: as we know, those lines even are not what you 278 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: would think. And Andy has made a very strong case 279 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: that the psychedelics can have you know, real physiological effect 280 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: and heal physical elements, not just mental ailments, and that 281 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: there's not a real difference between the two at some level. 282 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: I also like moving on as a writer at a 283 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: certain point, I prefer to write as an amateur and 284 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: then I become an expert and that kind of sucks 285 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: it up. From a literary point of view, I mean, 286 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: it's very gratifying as an advocate that you know, I 287 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: learned about a subject, I publish a book about it, 288 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: and then I have a platform to argue for the 289 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: world I want to see. And that's great. But as 290 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: a writer, I really prefer being at the beginning and 291 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: being the idiot on page one who has a set 292 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: of questions but doesn't have his answers. Read the first 293 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: page of any of my books and you'll see I 294 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: really am very naive at the beginning. And what I 295 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: like to do is dramatize the process of learning and 296 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: what I have to do to learn, which includes not 297 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: only talking to people and reading lots of books, but 298 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: having experiences that are really relevant that teach us in 299 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: a way that books can't teach us. And so you know, 300 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: when I was writing about the cattle industry, I bought 301 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: a cow and followed it through the process for Omnivor's dilemma. 302 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: And as you know, when I wrote about psychedelics, I 303 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: took you know, a menu of psychedelics, because there's no 304 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: substitute for personal experience, um, and there's a perspective you 305 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: have doing something for the first time that you'll never 306 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: have again. So even though I'm a relatively green or 307 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: young psychoonaut, as Andy reminds me every time we're on 308 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: the stage together and he lists the hundreds of experiences 309 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: he's at all right, I actually think there's a virtue 310 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: in being a newbie that I see things that you 311 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: might not see on your hundredth trip, um, and that 312 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: there's a quality of wonder not to mention the fact 313 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: that the reader can identify more easily with someone doing 314 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: something for the first time than for the hundredth time. Um. 315 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: So there's a there's a bit of narrative strategy involved 316 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: to right. One of the things I love There was 317 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: a piece of the Times a year or two ago, 318 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: and it had you having a lunch at your home, 319 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: and it was with IoLET Waldman, who had written a 320 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: book on micro dosing in fact, and I think she 321 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: actually interned a Drug Policy Alliance when she was in 322 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: her twenties. And then the novelist uh TC Boile, who 323 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: I remember reading his wonderful book about growing marijuana and 324 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: paranoia in Humboldt back in eighty four, Budding Prospects, but 325 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: then he wrote a very recent novel. Yeah, Timothy Leary, 326 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. It's called Outside Looking In. And one of 327 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: the comments they quote you saying there is you're debating 328 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: about what's going on American culture with with Iolette and 329 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: TC boiled, and you say, I think part of what's 330 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: going on is it's a reaction or or it's linked 331 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: to the growing anxiety in American society, you know, and 332 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: not just Trump is um, but a whole range of 333 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: other things. Does that still feel true to you that 334 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: or you just kind of speculating with him when you 335 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: said that. I don't remember saying that. I mean that 336 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: it was the anxiety that was leading to interest in psychedelics. Yeah, 337 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I mean I see it more as a 338 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: dissatisfaction with the tools we have to deal with mental 339 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: illness and anxiety and depression and the you know, the 340 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: fact that s SR eyes are increasingly um not working 341 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: as well as they once did, and people really don't 342 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: like taking them. I see it being driven by like 343 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: a willingness to do something really outside of the box 344 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: that people feel, you know. The underground use of psychedelics 345 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: is booming also, and I think people are looking for help, UH, 346 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: and that people are in a very stressed state. It 347 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: has partly to do with our politics, it has partly 348 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: to do with climate change, and the pandemic has has 349 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: only intensified this, and many people are looking for healing 350 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: and UH, and here are psychedelics that offer some relief, 351 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: but a very different kind of relief. And that this 352 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: is not self medication in the sense of using an 353 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: opiate or alcohol to kind of dull your senses. As 354 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, psychedelic experience is really hard work and it's 355 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: an attempt to go inside, which can be a very 356 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: scary place to go. But people are looking for something 357 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: more radical, something that in the in the true sense 358 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: of the word, that will deal with the roots of 359 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: their problem. It's depression, it's anxiety. It's just the sense 360 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: that we're in a very very difficult time and the future, 361 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: you know, has not looked this dark, uh in my lifetime. Um. 362 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: You know, the questions being raised not just about the 363 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: environmental crisis, but about our political system, and well, whether 364 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: our political system can cope with the environmental crisis, whether 365 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: our political system can survive. And I think all these 366 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: things make the potential of psychedelic healing very attractive to people, 367 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: and they're they're willing to take a chance, right, They're 368 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: willing to do something that may be way out of 369 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: their comfort zone. I am really surprised at the people. 370 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: I mean, many people come to me now like looking 371 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: for psychedelic therapy, and we should tell your listeners, please 372 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: don't come to me for this. I can't make referrals. 373 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: It's just too dangerous for everybody. Um find your own guide. 374 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: But I'm amazed that who comes to me. They're just 375 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: not the people you would think. There are people in 376 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: very prominent positions, people who look like they've got everything 377 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: worked out in their lives, and they're willing to roll 378 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: the dice and do something they never would have considered 379 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: a few years ago. We'll be talking more after we 380 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: hear this Adh. I have to say reading your chapter 381 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: on mescalin in the current book was fascinating for me. 382 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: First of all, I mean, I must confess I've only 383 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: done mescaline I think once back, you know, years ago, 384 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: I did synthetic mescaline, and I didn't. I did not 385 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: appreciate the differences that you describe in your latest book 386 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: between mescaline and LSD and psilocybin. And then you also 387 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: quote Sasha Alexander Shulgin and uh, you know, the brilliant 388 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: backyard chemist who actually I was quite friendly with and 389 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: we visited his home in Latvia, California often times, and 390 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: who was generous with me and having the experiment. Um, 391 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: but he calls mescalin the queen of the psychedelics. And 392 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: you had I think a Rabbi psycholic friend who said 393 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, the king of the materials, the 394 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: king of the materials. So is your experience would you? 395 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that description? Yeah? I mean I 396 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: had a really interesting, uh and positive experience with mescalin. 397 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: I had a more profound one with psilocybin. And given 398 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: the choice what I do mescaline again, I guess I would. 399 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: I mean I really liked this quality of you know, 400 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: the way it immerses you in the here and now. Um, 401 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: it's very different than the psychedelics that at high dose 402 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: take you somewhere else, take you to another world, another dimension. 403 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: I was just more here than I'd ever been, and 404 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: more absorbed in what was right in front of me. 405 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: And in a way it was the perfect drug for 406 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: the pandemic. You know, where we were kind of claustrophobic. 407 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: We were stuck in place. It felt like our worlds 408 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: had shrunk down. Still feels that way. And here was 409 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: this drug that made what you had, the room you 410 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: were in, the life you were leading so interesting and 411 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: so nuanced and so rich with possibility and insight that 412 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: you were completely content with your little nutshell. And I 413 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: thought that was a very interesting experience. I think Huxley's account, 414 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: and you know, these accounts influence us. You know, there're 415 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: no innocent psychedelic experiences, right, They're very much constructed by 416 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: our expectations, as Timothy Leary understood. But Huxley in the 417 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: Doors of Perception, a lot of what I felt chimed 418 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: with what he said, which was that he felt like 419 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: the reducing valve of consciousness, the fact that our consciousness 420 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: is trying to reduce the amount of information coming in 421 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: because it threatens to overwhelm us, and it's more than 422 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: we need for the business of living in survival. But 423 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: there's so much more out there, there's so much more 424 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: sensory information than we're taking in. That felt really right 425 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: to me, And Shulgin says this too. He said he 426 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: saw colors or nuances of colors that he didn't know existed. 427 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: And it is that kind of child mind, which is 428 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: taking in information from in all directions, is not focused. 429 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: It's the opposite of caffeine. I think psychedelics and caffeine 430 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: are on two ends of a spectrum. Where caffeine helps 431 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: you focus the lens where you want, which is very 432 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: powerful for getting work done, which is why it suits 433 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: capitalism so well. Psychedelics, you're bringing in information from all 434 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: these you know, corners of the room and doesn't necessarily 435 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: encourage you to focus, but can be incredibly enriching to 436 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: see what's out there. So it was interesting. I didn't 437 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: have that experience of ego dissolution. I didn't have hallucinations, 438 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: with the one exception of there are a couple of 439 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 1: moments where I was a little bit overwhelmed by how 440 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: much information was coming in and I closed my eyes 441 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: to meditate. But the me that was meditating with somebody else, um, 442 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: And this happened a couple of times. I was like, 443 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: who is this Latin American woman who's in my head meditating? 444 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: I know that sounds crazy, but um. But in general, 445 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't about hallucination. It was about perception, and it 446 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: was about taking in this information. The only negative experience 447 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: I felt besides this brief period of being overwhelmed by 448 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: as as I quote this poet, the immensity of existence. 449 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: I mean I was really hit by that a couple 450 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: of times at the peak. The only negative was it 451 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: went on so long. I mean it's like fourteen hours, 452 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: and I was done with the mescaline before it was 453 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: done with me um. I wanted to just have dinner 454 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: and go to bed, but it wasn't gonna happen. Well, 455 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: I guess that's why they're not really using mescalini. Yes, 456 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: it means two shifts for your two guides, right, your too. 457 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: Therapists be kind of expensive, but it does seem like 458 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: it's worth investigating or maybe working on the molecule as 459 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: as Sasha Shulgin did so brilliantly, because it has some 460 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: of M d M as qualities. You can feel very 461 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: connected to somebody else on it, and you can hold 462 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: a conversation, and it seems to me it could be 463 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: useful in a group therapy context um, which might justify 464 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: all the hours of therapist time. And there is a 465 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: company that wants to work with it. Journey collab wants 466 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: to use mescaline to work on alcoholism. And you know 467 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: the Native Americans have used mescaline in the form of 468 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: peyote with great success in a group setting and working 469 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: often on alcoholism. Yeah, well, you know I reread before 470 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: talking with you now, another essay you wrote that. I 471 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: just thought it was wonderful and it was about the 472 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: challenges of writing about this, you know, about putting into language. 473 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: And I remember at one point, you know, you uh, 474 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: you had done five N E O d m T 475 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: the toad trip, the signor and toad where you squeeze 476 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: the glands and you get five m O D M T, 477 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: and you talked about the role of metaphors or rocket 478 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: and the big bang, or another point. I think in 479 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: the most recent book you're talking about comparing LSD and 480 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: psilocybinto kind of a top down approach and mescalin almost 481 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: a bottom up one. And I realized that as a writer, 482 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: as a brilliant writer, you have the luxury of looking 483 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: at your words and crafting them, where as I'm interviewing 484 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: this moment, you don't have that luxury of doing it. 485 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: Did you feel that when you were writing this most 486 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: recent book and talking about your mescalin experience, that the 487 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: words are the ways of writing flowed more naturally than 488 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: it had a few years ago, just as you've been. Yeah, 489 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: I think I found a way to write about psychedelic 490 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: experience for me, And that was hard to do when 491 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: I when I first approached the whole issue, and I 492 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: knew that there was going to be a chapter in 493 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: How to Change Your Mind where I'd have to describe 494 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: my trips, and I was very nervous about it because 495 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: I've read a lot of you know, really shitty trip 496 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: reports we all have, and uh, and you know, it's 497 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: like telling people your dreams. You know, the chances are 498 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: you'll bore them to tears. So I approached that as 499 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: a very you know, nervous making part of the writing um. 500 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: In the event, it was actually great fun, much more 501 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: fun than I thought, And as a writer, it was 502 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: some of the most fun I've had And and writing 503 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: about this mescal and trip too was really fun. And 504 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: what unlocked it for me was understanding that I was 505 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: writing for people who probably hadn't had this experience, many 506 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: of my readers, and I needed to address them directly 507 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: about what I imagined they were thinking about what I 508 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: just said. So in other words, I I go into 509 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: the trip and I describe it for a certain amount 510 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: of time. But when I reached a moment of incredulousness 511 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: in my own mind, like there was a Latin American 512 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: woman meditating in my head, I stopped and talked to 513 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: the reader and said, I know how crazy this sounds, 514 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: or yes, I know that love is the most important 515 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: thing in the world. I know that there's a hallmark sentiment, 516 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: but remember it's also profound. It can be both. And 517 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: so this direct address to the reader gave me the 518 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: license to go where I had to go. And I 519 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: felt like I wouldn't lose that reader by taking account 520 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: of their skepticism or their wrinkled brow or whatever it was. 521 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: So once I kind of found that that little formula 522 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: I could let go, I could totally cut lose. And 523 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, for a journalist who's normally writing things that 524 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: have to stand up to fact checking, right in that 525 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: small box of checkable facts, when there's a lot of 526 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: other interesting things that you can't quite pin down. Here, 527 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm transcribing the contents of my mind. There's no fact checking, right, 528 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: I am it. I'm the expert on this story. And 529 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: I imagine it's how novelists feel because they're they're basically 530 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: as I imagine, I'm I don't write fiction, but they're 531 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: telling themselves a story, or they're enacting a dialogue in 532 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: their head and writing it down, and there's enormous freedom 533 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: in that. And it was it was great pleasure. So 534 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: I was very happy to write a book where I 535 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: would get to describe another trip. You know. I also 536 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: found sometimes, like when I smoke a marijuana, if it's 537 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: strong marijuana, I'll get into this thinking of all great thoughts, 538 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: great thoughts, but so often later in the day, afterwards, 539 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 1: the next day, they just seem like fluff, you know. 540 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Whereas I found that when I've done this has happened 541 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: on mushrooms, has happened on ayahuasca, that actually, and especially 542 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: if I don't get high at the end of the trip, 543 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: that my thoughts can be very clear later that day 544 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: or even the next, and easy to remember, easy to 545 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: remember and actually have there are insights. I had an 546 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: influence of mushrooms years ago, they still have validity in 547 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: my life today, and so I think that must be 548 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: a benefit. Actually, you had, I think the same experience. 549 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, I did. There are insights I 550 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: had and you can you know, you can also call 551 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: them banal insights around love and connectedness, but they're real. 552 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: You know, the sense of interconnectedness people feel on psychedelics. 553 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: The illusion is the idea of separateness, right, And so 554 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: there is a veracity to some of this these ideas 555 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: we acquire. But also think of the people using psychedelics 556 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: to quit smoking, and they come to the profound conclusion 557 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: that smoking is stupid and it's killing them. They knew 558 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: that at one level. But there is a sturdiness to 559 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: the insight on psychedelics. It's it's what James called the 560 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: no edic quality, right that this is not just an opinion, 561 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: this is a revealed truth, and some of the truths 562 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: are really important. Um. And they have that etched in stone, 563 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: brought down from the mountain quality. And I think that's 564 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: one of the keys to the success of psychedelics and 565 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: helping people change bad habits such as addiction, is that 566 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: whatever insights they come to, either directed towards them by 567 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: their therapists or on their own, those insights are sturdier 568 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: than the insights we have in everyday life. Well, now 569 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: let's talk about the powerful role of set in setting. 570 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: And one of the big points you make in the 571 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: mescal In chapter, I think it's in your other book 572 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: as well, is for a lot of these drugs, there's 573 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: the synthetic version, right, in this case mescalin or or 574 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: you can have that with psilocybin as well, and then 575 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: there is the natural plant version, or the one that 576 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: comes from the toad um in the case of five 577 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: mm e O d M T right. And actually, by chance, 578 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: I met this guy last week, a Mexican guy named 579 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: Mario Garnier, who is like the latest, you know, major 580 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: advocate for the toad medicine. He actually comes from the 581 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: Sonora area, and when he's asked, there's a debate synthetic 582 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: versus the toad, and the way he resolves it is 583 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: to say they're just different. They're just different. Right now. 584 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: I think he privately actually believes the real stuff is better, 585 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: but he frames it that way. I remember Sasha Shulgin, 586 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: he was a bit contemptuous. He said, use the synthetic. 587 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: It's the same drug, and in fact, if anything, that's 588 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: a little cleaner, so you're less likely to get sick. Now. 589 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: You talk in the book about your own experience with 590 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: a synthetic and then using I think the mesican that 591 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: comes from the sun pedro plant. I think in the 592 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: second case, the first ones are very high dose. That 593 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: was a kind of a lower dose. Um. But you 594 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: also talk about how our view of this is so 595 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: alien to people in the Native American church or indigenous 596 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: people's for whom the drug quote unquote is almost secondary 597 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: to the ritualistic context. And they're very devoted to their 598 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: cactus and they're not interested in synthetic mescaline, and they're 599 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: not interested in san pedro, and in fact, they're not 600 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: even interested in peyote that's been grown cultivated. They think 601 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: that's not the same either, that it has to be wild. 602 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: And there may be some truth to that. I don't know. 603 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: We haven't grown a lot of payoty, but we're gonna 604 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: try and see what happens. But it may be like 605 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: hydroponic lettuce, you know, it just maybe weak. Um, you know. 606 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: I think it depends on the drug. I think that 607 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: synthetics are often cleaner and there's less gastro intestinal upset. 608 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: There are other alkaloids we know that are active um 609 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: in the same way, cannabis is not just THHC. It 610 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: has other things going on and and maybe other things 611 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: we haven't yet found. Same with the natural forms of 612 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: most of these drugs. In the case of air got 613 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: you would not want to eat the natural form. That's 614 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, you could get gang green and insanity. I 615 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: mean that things happen. And I just say to our listeners. 616 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: Is the connection with LSD, right, Yeah, it's the It's 617 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: the fungus from which LSD is derived and has a 618 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: dark history in European culture of leading to all sorts 619 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: of problems when people ingested it on bad grain. Another 620 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: way to look at this is um look at coco 621 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: versus cocaine. You know, Andy and Wade Davis have written 622 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: eloquently about how coca leaves, which are used like caffeine 623 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: is in our culture in South America, has a lot 624 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: of positive attributes and very few negative attributes. And it 625 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: is the refinement into cocaine where you end up with 626 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: a powerful drug that people can get into trouble with 627 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: and dit oh, you know opium poppies, poppy tea is 628 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: or even opium Compared to the powerful synthetics like fenyl 629 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: and so it depends. I mean, if you're talking about 630 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: things of equal strength, that's one argument. If you're talking 631 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: about the fact that you're refining something from nature and 632 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: making it orders of magnitude more intense, that's another story. Um. 633 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: I think we can get hung up though on romanticizing 634 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: things in their natural form, But there are some protections 635 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: and having them in their natural form too, which is 636 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: that they're often weaker and you know, likely to be 637 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: less overwhelming. Yeah. Well, you know. The other thing I 638 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,959 Speaker 1: like about your writing, and especially in the most recent book, 639 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: is the way you throw things into historical context. And 640 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm reading through it and I'm saying to myself, I 641 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: wonder if he's going to mention Shivel Bush, wonder he's 642 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,479 Speaker 1: gonna and there there's Wolfgang Shivel. He both this book 643 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: Tasted Paradise a couple of decades ago, about spices, stimulants, 644 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: and intoxic ins, and he points out how in Europe 645 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: they didn't have coffee or tea until the sixteen hundreds, 646 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: they didn't have tobacco. I don't think till the fifteen 647 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds, right, that actually spices played a role almost 648 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: like a Nebrians they had alcohol, and they didn't even 649 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: have hard liquor, right, they had low potency alcohol. So 650 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: spices played that role. Yeah, they had a hard cider 651 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: and things like that. Yeah, I forget when distillation comes in, 652 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: but that's pretty late too. Um. Yeah, spices are the 653 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: kind of forerunners of drugs. Um. And you know, I 654 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: mean if you eat chili peppers, right, or black pepper, 655 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: lots of black pepper, you feel flushed and you feel 656 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: it changes consciousness. I mean, there are many foods to 657 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: change consciousness. Sugar Just watch kids with sugar. That's their drug. 658 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: It's a powerful effect. But I love that chivil Bush 659 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: book and I remember reading it back in the eighties 660 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: and thinking, wow, this is a fascinating area. And and 661 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: that was one of my inspirations to write about drugs. 662 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: The other is a book I wonder if you know 663 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: by uh By Lenson called on Drugs. I think that's 664 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: just a brilliant book that no one's heard of about drugs. 665 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: And um, he's very good at looking at the cultural 666 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: and economic um identity of different drugs. You know that 667 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: cocaine is a consumerist drug, right, you always want more. 668 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: It drives that consumerist economy. And other drugs make you 669 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: very content with what you have in front of you, cannabis. 670 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: And then he had a wonderful chapter on LSD and 671 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: how it was orientalized by Timothy Leary. It's really true, 672 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: you realize it's it's so much of you know. He 673 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: used the Tibetan Book of the Dead as the frame 674 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: for the experience. And it's really just about how constructive 675 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: these drug experiences are. But yet they do have qualities 676 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: that push them in one direction or another. Let's take 677 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: a break here and go to an ad. He also write, 678 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean about the ways in which society has transformed. 679 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: I mean, alcohol is the far and a way the 680 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: most widely consumed drug and revolutionary error early nineteenth century America, 681 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. Um, but then there's the 682 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: transition here and in other countries, United Kingdom elsewhere, man 683 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of the Western world to coffee, and that 684 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: in an increasingly industrialized world, that is more appropriate. I 685 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: love the point you make that it can't be just 686 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: coincidence that both the emergence of cought the and the 687 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: emergence of the minute hand on the clock happened around 688 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah, well, you know, what's really interesting 689 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: about the arrival of caffeine, coffee and tea and chocolate 690 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: in Europe. Those three substances arrive in the same decade 691 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: in England, which makes that a really a red letter 692 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: decade as far as I'm concerned. But we see it 693 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: before and after the introduction of a of a powerful drug, 694 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: because the older drugs like alcohol, cannabis, opium, they've been around, 695 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, since prehistory. Probably said, we don't know what 696 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: a world without them was really like. But we see 697 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: the arrival at a moment in time of caffeine and 698 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: it changes things in a profound way. And people at 699 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: the time noticed, they're writing about this new sober and 700 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: civil drink and that you know, clerks and offices are 701 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: no longer drunk, and they're doing a better job and um. 702 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: And it was immediately grasped that this drug was well 703 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: suited for mental work in a way alcohol wasn't, and 704 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: was well suited for operating machinery. So the the industrial revolution, 705 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: you gets a big push from the arrival of caffeine. 706 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,399 Speaker 1: It creates the kind of worker that you want. And 707 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, before that people were doing physical work outdoors 708 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: and it didn't matter if you were buzzed, and people 709 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: were buzz because they were drinking, you know, at breakfast, 710 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: because alcohol was safer than water. And that's why you 711 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: even gave alcohol to your kids. UM in the form 712 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: of hartsider, I mean, not strong forms of alcohol, but 713 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: but everybody got alcohol. Once you start doing work that 714 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: involves heavy machinery, and especially when you need a night shift, 715 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: you know, because these machines are so expensive and you 716 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 1: want to run them all night. Caffeine is what allows 717 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: us to stay up late. Caffeine disconnects us from uh 718 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: natural time, the time of the sun used to be. 719 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: You would work from dawn till dusk. With caffeine and 720 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: electric light and or gaslight and a few other things 721 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: like coal, you could have a night shift and an 722 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: overnight shift. And it had a profound effect on um 723 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: creating a human being, a human body that could work 724 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 1: in the in the context of a mill or another 725 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: kind of technological setup. UM. So, I think it had 726 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: a big effect. And if you want an example of 727 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: what's going on with capitalism and caffeine, just look at 728 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: the coffee break and think about that. You know, your 729 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: employer gives you a drug coffee or tea and then 730 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: paid time in which to enjoy it. That's incredible. Why 731 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: is your employer doing that not to be nice, They're 732 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: doing it because they know that you you will work 733 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: better and harder and more efficiently. Yeah. So part of 734 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: what you do is to write this broad historical perspective, 735 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: and you also raise concerns about the future. You point 736 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: out that with climate change, many of the coffee growing 737 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: regions maybe hurt the most. You know, you point out 738 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: another place that with you know, we've typically gotten our 739 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: opioids from the opium plant, morphine, heroin, etcetera. But now 740 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: we see fentyl emerging, and we see other either semi 741 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: or total synthetics that may be displacing this. We now 742 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: see a for profit psychedelics world that knows that part 743 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: of its opportunity to make money is by designing slight 744 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: variations on the natural substances which they can't patent. And so, 745 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: I mean, any thoughts about where we're going in terms 746 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: of our psychoactive drug use of the future. Well, there's 747 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: a few different futures out there, and I don't know 748 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: which one is going to predominate, but I think they're 749 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: going to be multiple. I mean, there isn't a kind 750 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: of enclosure movement in the corporate world around psychedelics, an 751 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: attempt to patent as much as possible. Compass Pathways is 752 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,240 Speaker 1: most notorious for wanting to patent psilocybin, and you can't 753 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: exactly but the patent of one crystalline form of it, 754 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: and whether that's a meaningful patent or not remains to 755 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: be seen. But you know, psilocybin will continue to grow 756 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: in cow patties, it will continue to grow in closets 757 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: and the gardens, and it's I think it'll be hard 758 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: to control. There will be the you know, the natural form, 759 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: the mushroom form that will still be out there, and 760 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: and underground therapy won't go away. I think it will 761 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: actually get even more successful. There was a period where 762 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 1: the underground therapists were worried they were going to be 763 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: written out of psychedelic medicine. But they're no long you're 764 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: worried about that because the demand is going to be 765 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: so great and they have access to the drug and 766 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: they they're the ones with a lot of experience too 767 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,919 Speaker 1: and administering it. And then there's gonna be this religious path. 768 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm very interested to see these new churches or you know, 769 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: that use psychedelic as a sacrament. I mean, already we 770 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: have three of them. There's two Ayahuasca churches that have 771 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: the legal right to use ahuasca, and then there's the 772 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: Native American Church, which has the legal right to use peyote. 773 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: But there will be a church of psilocybin and a 774 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: church of LSD. And I think that it's going to 775 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: be very hard for the Supreme Court to deny that 776 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: they are either religions or that this is their sacrament, 777 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: and that the jurisprudence around religious freedom has gotten so 778 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 1: crazily expansive that I think it's going to be like 779 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: an exploding cigar when it gets to Samuel Alito's desk 780 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: one of these churches, and we'll see. I mean, you know, 781 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: they don't always feel they have to be consistent, you know, 782 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: they don't they it was saying, I mean, I remember 783 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: Justice Scalia you mentioned right, and shot down the Native 784 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 1: American Church is right to use peyote, and fortunately Congress 785 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: overturn them. But Scalia was not consistently bad on all 786 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: drug issues. But he may have been somebody who just 787 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: kind of saw America as a Christian nation or Judeo 788 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: Christian nation as fundamental to his conception, and that therefore 789 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: allowing something like this might threaten it. But how outrageous 790 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, given the fact that white people came to 791 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: this country seeking religious freedom, the free exercise of religion, 792 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: and they put it in the First Amendment. And here 793 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: are the people who pre existed us using their sacrament 794 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: and being told by the Supreme Court of the United 795 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: States that the drug war is more important than your 796 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: religious practice. I mean, it was just one of the 797 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: most outrageous decisions, and I'm really glad it was undone. 798 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: So you know, you get into the Native American Church, 799 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: what are the interesting things? Well, first of all, you 800 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: make the point that if people white people and all 801 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: others who are not part of the Native American Church 802 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: are gonna use mescaline, don't get it from peyote, get 803 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: it from the synthetic or else, get it from the 804 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: sign pedro plant which grows in abundance. And his very 805 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: hearty right. But you also interesting pointed out that Native 806 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: Americans did not actually use this until a hundred years 807 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: or so ago, whereas the traditional use went back hundreds 808 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,439 Speaker 1: of not suses of six thousand years six value among 809 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: the witch all in Mexico and others as well. Yeah, 810 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: the story of the Native American Church and how it 811 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: was created and what it did for Native Americans was 812 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: to me one of the more moving stories I've I've 813 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: written about. UM. It is true that it wasn't until 814 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties at least, that white people noticed it 815 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: that they were using peyote in a ceremonial way. Um. 816 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,720 Speaker 1: It was a revival of a practice um that had 817 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: been continuous in Mexico. And remember the distinction between Texas 818 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: and Mexico is fairly recent, and peyote grows on both 819 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: sides of the Rio Grand in a strip there. And UM, 820 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: there may have been Native Americans in Texas South Texas 821 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: who used it continually, but for most Native Americans, it 822 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: was really when they were forced onto reservations in Oklahoma 823 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: and brought into close contact with one another that this 824 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: practice spread, um and became a really an inter tribal 825 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,320 Speaker 1: um practice and did a lot to knit different Indian 826 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: groups together, because remember, before we got here, they weren't 827 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: Native Americans. Uh. In both in both senses, there was 828 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: no America. But also they were separate nations, and many 829 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: of them hated each other. They were agrarian people, and 830 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: there were no mads, and they had many different lifestyles 831 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: and and uh so it's it's only us that have 832 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: forced them to be lumped together. And the Native American 833 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: Church when that phrases invented, is the first time the 834 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: phrase Native American is used. And that doesn't happen to 835 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: but anyway, at a at a moment of maximum trauma 836 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: for American Indians in the eighteen eighties, this is after 837 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: the Ghost Dance has been suppressed violently, there's a massacre 838 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: at Wounded Knee. This is after, um, we've begun taking 839 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: Indian children from their parents, cutting off their hair, putting 840 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: them in boarding schools. Where the avowed aim was to 841 00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: and this is a quote to kill the Indian and 842 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: save them. And it was the policy of the US 843 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,720 Speaker 1: government to destroy Indian culture. Um, many of their religious 844 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: practices were outlawed, the Sun Dance, for example, and and 845 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: by the way, we're outlawed until the Carter administration. So 846 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: this is a kind of horrible episode. And um, the 847 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 1: Native Americans found that peyote used in ceremony was helped 848 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: accommodate them to their new lives um and helped heal 849 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: them from things like alcohol, which don't really become a 850 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: problem until reservation life. And so you know, this is 851 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: a traumatized people, and they found relief in peyote and 852 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 1: continue to the payote is um is is. Now you know, 853 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: there're two and or fifty thousand members at least in 854 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: the Native American Church, and and I don't know how 855 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: many different tribes, but dozens and dozens of tribes. So 856 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: it's a very hopeful story and it's a story from 857 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: which we we stand to learn a lot. Well. In closing, 858 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: let me just say, you know, when I think about 859 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: the future of psychoelic assistans psychotherapy and whether health insurance 860 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: will pay for it, reading in your talk that the 861 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: Indian Health Services pays for peyote sessions, I mean, what 862 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: a great you know, precedent for covering the cost of 863 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: psych assisted therapy. So, Michael, thank you so much for 864 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,359 Speaker 1: joining me. It's great to catch up. I love your 865 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: new book. Um do you have any plans where the 866 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: next book is not? Yeah, not yeah, I'm working on that. 867 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: I've been too busy with this one. Okay. Always a 868 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,479 Speaker 1: pleasure to talk to you, Ethan Yes YouTube, Michael, Thanks 869 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: very much. Psychoactive is the production of I Heart Radio 870 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's 871 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: produced by Katcha Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers 872 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski 873 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for iHeart 874 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by Ari 875 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: Blusian and especial thanks to Aviv Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw 876 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,720 Speaker 1: and Robert Beatty. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, 877 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: or ideas, please leave us a message at eight three 878 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:08,240 Speaker 1: three seven seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three 879 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: psycho zero. You can also email us as Psychoactive at 880 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at Ethan 881 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: natal men And if you couldn't keep track of all this, 882 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:26,919 Speaker 1: find the information in the show notes. Tune in next 883 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: time for my conversation with the former president of Columbia 884 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: that's the country, not the university, and Nobel Peace Prize 885 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: winner Juan Manuel Santos. I come from a country which 886 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: perhaps is the country that has suffered most in this 887 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: world war on drugs. Colombia, for decades have been fighting 888 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: this war at a terrible cost. We have sacrificed our 889 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: best leaders, are best journalists, are best judges, and we 890 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: are still the number one exporter of cocaine to the world. 891 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: Mark Subscribe to Cycoactive now, see it, don't miss it.