1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. Sam 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: tennant House stops by to talk about his new book Buckley, 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: The Life and the Revolution. 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: That Changed America. 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: But first we have Katie Brodski Falco on Women's House 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: and how it's been defunded. 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Katie. 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 3: Thank you. 12 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: You occupy the nonprofit space, but in a very interesting way. 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: Tell us about crime Lab, which is this incredible thing 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: you created, and then go from there. 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 3: Sure, so I'll tell you kind of the genesis story 16 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 3: how I got to where I am now. My work, 17 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: the thread across all of my work has always been 18 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 3: justice reform. So I worked in criminal justice reform for 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 3: twenty years, and for ten years I ran nonprofit research 20 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: organizations in the criminal justice space. First was Crime Lab 21 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 3: for a University of Chicago and then at NYU Law 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 3: the Criminal Justice Lab with Anne Milgram, who's the former 23 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 3: Attorney General from New Jersey and was tapped by Biden 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 3: to run the DEA. So during that time I was 25 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: really working on how do we build bodies of rigorous 26 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 3: evidence to show which criminal justice interventions actually work so 27 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 3: that we can be responsible in investing taxpayer dollars towards 28 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 3: specific interventions. The reason that that body of rigorous evidence 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: didn't exist before that is because we don't prioritize the 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: outcomes of the people who are affected by the criminal 31 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: justice system, who were largely black and brown men. So 32 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 3: my job was how do we build that body of 33 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 3: rigorous evidence? And I went out in the private sector 34 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 3: to raise money to build randomized control trials around criminal 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: justice interventions to see what actually works. And then I 36 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: partnered with the public sector, with the Mayor's office in 37 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 3: New York, the Mayor's office in Indianapolis, other public sector 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: folks to incorporate those findings into what we're actually investing 39 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: our money into. And then how I ended up at 40 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 3: the Foundation Foreman's Health, which is an organization that I've 41 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: launched about a year and a half ago, is during 42 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: that time when I was building these RCTs and this 43 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: rigorous evidence in the criminal justice space, I had my 44 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 3: own lived experience within the women's health sphere. I had 45 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: help syndrome with the birth of my first child in 46 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, which is like a severe form of preaclansia, 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: and then I had breast cancer in twenty twenty. Those 48 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: were really eye opening experiences for me because my pitch 49 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: for Crime Lab to funders had always been you wouldn't 50 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 3: take a medication if there wasn't a randomized clinical trial 51 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 3: showing you that it was safe and efficacious for you 52 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: to take. Right, why are we doing this with the 53 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: these billions of dollars that we're investing in terms of 54 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 3: tax payer dollars? And then with my own lived experience, 55 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: I realized, actually, we don't have any of that rigorous 56 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 3: evidence around women's health either. The typical drug dosages that 57 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: we are prescribed are based on mail only clinical data. 58 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 3: How is this possible? And the more that I researched 59 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: the funding landscape in terms of how women's health research 60 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 3: gets funded, the more horrified I was. 61 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: So, why don't we talk for a minute about what 62 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: happened when you had these two problems, what happened with 63 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: when you sort of went to doctors, what the research 64 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: was and how you got there. 65 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, so with help syndrome. So my son was born 66 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: at thirty three weeks. I presented my obstetrician with the 67 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: very traditional symptoms of HELP syndrome, Like, if you googled 68 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 3: Help syndrome, what the symptoms are. That's what I came 69 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 3: to her and presented in her office the day before 70 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: we had to have this emergency C section, And she said, well, 71 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: you know, that's just third trimester pregnancy and it's not 72 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: her fault that she did Help can You syndrome is 73 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: a severe form of preaclamps ya that involves elevated platelet 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: levels and liver For me, it was liver failure that 75 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: goes along with hypertensive disorder and a bunch of other 76 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: issues that they think stem from an autoimmune response to 77 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 3: the fetus, although the mechanisms there are not clearly studied 78 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: and we don't have research on them. So I came 79 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: to my doctor. She didn't recognize any of the symptoms 80 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: because she had never been taught this in medical school, 81 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: because we don't educate doctors around various women's health diseases 82 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: because there is no rigorous research to teach in medical schools. 83 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: So I started looking, Hey, why isn't there any rigorous 84 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: research being generated here? And again, so I'm somebody who 85 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: I have access to care. I'm privileged in so many ways. 86 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 4: Right. 87 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: I live in New York City. I'm very close to 88 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: world class hospitals that have leading experts in various diseases. 89 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: I have insurance that it allows me to afford care 90 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: right at these places. And still this is my outcome. 91 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: Right. 92 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: So, Tao was born at thirty three weeks, three pounds 93 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: thirteen ounces. He spent six weeks in the NICU. I 94 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: spent a week and a half in the ICU out 95 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: of nowhere. No family history of this, you know, I 96 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: had no knowledge of what this was before I had it. 97 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: When I I went to try to get pregnant again, 98 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 3: I went to again, somebody with privilege access. I had. 99 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 3: My insurance allowed me to have a forty dollars copay 100 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: with the nation's leading expert in hypertension during pregnancy. And 101 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 3: she just so happens to be located in Manhattan, right, So, like, 102 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: I have access to care in all the ways. So 103 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: when I went to see that doctor, I said, is 104 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: it safe for me to get pregnant again? She said, yes, 105 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: here's the course of treatment that I would recommend. I said, wonderful, 106 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: where's the RCT for that. She said, I don't have 107 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: an RCT for that. Explain to us what an RCT is. 108 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: So when RCT is a randomized control trial, which is 109 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 3: the golden standard of research, right, we have RCTs for 110 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: most medications in order to get FDA approval. So I said, 111 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: how is it possible that we don't have rigorous evidence 112 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: around the safety and efficacy of this course of treatment 113 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: for secondary pregnancies. So help syndrome is in the category 114 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 3: of preeclamsia. Preaclamsya is the leading cause of maternal mortality 115 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: in this country, four hundred thousand women. I didn't realize 116 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 3: that this year alone will be diagnosed with preeclampsia. Three 117 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: hundred thousand women in this country will be diagnosed with 118 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: breast cancer this year, and yet we have three thousand 119 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: times the amount of research funding for breast cancer than 120 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 3: we do for preeclampsia. How can that be? I started 121 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 3: looking in the public sector, like, what are the funding 122 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 3: mechanisms here? In the public sector? You have NIH, which 123 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: is the leading funder of viol anymore not anymore, Baby 124 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: was the leading funder of biomedical research in the world. 125 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: And I'd love to talk about the funding cuts because 126 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: one of our Medical Advisory Board members put together a 127 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: very interesting deck on it used to be the leading 128 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: funder of biomedical research in the world, and yet women's 129 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: health research has remained less than eight percent of the 130 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: NIH budget for the last decade. Up until nineteen ninety three, 131 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 3: women were categorically excluded from clinical research trials in this country. 132 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 3: And it wasn't until twenty sixteen, which is nine years ago, 133 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: that we were required that mice in animal trials, that 134 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 3: we include female mice in animal trials. That's nine years ago. Okay, 135 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: So the public sector, and this is a political in 136 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 3: the sense that we're talking over the last thirty years, 137 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: we've remained around we've hovered around eight percent of the 138 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: NIH budget. That was through the Obama years and the 139 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: Clinton years, as well as the Bush years and the 140 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: Trump years. Right, So let's not be duped into thinking 141 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: that it was there was ever a great solution coming 142 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 3: from the public sector. Obviously now things are worse. As 143 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: of the end of April, there were eighty six million 144 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: dollars in funding cuts to women's health research. The largest 145 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: categories for the cuts were mental health, maternal health, and 146 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: looking at sex differences, meaning in cardiovascular disease, had women, 147 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: you know, experienced cardiovascular disease differently than men. There were 148 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: already also cuts in the women's health research pipeline in 149 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 3: the sense that there were fifteen million dollars in training 150 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 3: grants that were lost for things like a Department of 151 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: Research that's building research careers and women's health programs, things 152 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: like that, and also attacks on data sources. 153 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: Can you give us a minute on what these NIH 154 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: cuts look like? 155 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, we don't have great information, so we're 156 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 3: putting it all together ourselves. 157 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: Why would we have good information? 158 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: But we have selected titles of terminated grants. Things like 159 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: automated digital imaging for cervical cancer screening was cut. Things 160 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: like psychological underpinnings of gender disparities and adolescent mental health, 161 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: a study of hormones, the molecular mechanism of action and functions, 162 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: sexual assault recovery among sexual minority women. You know, this 163 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 3: is an addition, but there's a there's a full attack 164 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: on research. This is in addition to cuts in pediatric 165 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: cancer research. 166 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: Right. Well, that's because the ELON doesn't care about that. 167 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: But the way the NIH grant cuts have worked is 168 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: that there's this cap on indirect funding. 169 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 2: Is that still in the work. 170 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: They said they were going to put a cap on 171 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 3: indirect funding, so like. 172 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 5: As a fifteen percent indirect right, which is what a 173 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 5: lot of private funders do, because academic institutions love federal 174 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 5: grants because they have really high indirect rates which can 175 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 5: support infrastructure, labs, equipment, things that academic institutions need. 176 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: Right. 177 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: It's not exactly car services, right, No, But. 178 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 3: That being said, a lot of private funders do limit 179 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: indirect rates. We limit indirect rates. You know. Some private 180 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: funders will say we don't pay for any indirect rates, 181 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: which is an aggressive stance. But academic institutions for a 182 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: long time have relied on indirect rates to fund infrastructure, 183 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: which is highly needed. So in the private sector what 184 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 3: I found shocking when I went to frankly through these experiences. 185 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: So with breast cancer, you see the other end. You 186 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: see that Evelyn Lauder, who was a visionary and a 187 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: great philanthropist, created the Breast Cancer Research Foundation in nineteen 188 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: ninety three and has raised one billion dollars to date 189 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: for breast cancer research, advancing treatments, research all of it, 190 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: and outcomes for women living with breast cancer. From which 191 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 3: I have greatly benefited. But when you look in the 192 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 3: private sector, you see these huge discrepancies in terms of 193 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: research funding, largely because the private sector, in terms of 194 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 3: the health space, is organized and siloed across disease. So 195 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: you have the Breast Cancer Research Foundation, then you have 196 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: the pre Eclampsia Foundation, in Alzheimer's Association, American Heart Association. Right, 197 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: each organization has their own fundraising capacity based on their leadership, right, 198 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: I mean, just varies how much money they can raise. 199 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: So when I had these experiences, I went looking for 200 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: an organization that was looking from the thirty thousand foot 201 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 3: perspective from a gender equity lens, right, because it is 202 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: wrong to me that we should have less research and 203 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: less funding for research looking at women's health than men's health. 204 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 3: So looking from a gender equity lens across the entire 205 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: continuum of the female life cycle to identify where there 206 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: are holes in rigorous research. Where there are holes in 207 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: rigorous research, do we have sources of funding to plug that? 208 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 4: Right? 209 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: Those research tolls if not fill the gap. Right, it 210 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: seemed like a strategic and efficient way to solve for 211 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: the problem. And when that organization didn't exist. After I 212 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: did much research in many interviews with doctors and advocacy 213 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 3: experts and research organizations across the country. When I realized 214 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: that that didn't exist, I created the Foundation for Women's Health. 215 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 3: You know, I was pretty horrified when the name existed 216 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 3: and the IRL existed for the website. So we launched 217 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: about a year and a half ago, and we are 218 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: superpower is absolutely our Medical Advisory Board, which is a 219 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: collection of eleven of the nation's leading experts in women's 220 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: health research, and their job is to attract the best 221 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 3: proposals from across the country and then grade the proposals 222 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 3: that we receive based on methodology, feasibility, innovation, and then 223 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 3: help me disseminate the findings. A big piece of our 224 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: theory of change is that not only do we have 225 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 3: to generate the research to make up for lost time, 226 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 3: but also when we have the research, it can't just 227 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: live in academic journals. It's wonderful for us to institutionalize 228 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: knowledge and academic journals, but we also have to disseminate 229 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: findings through traditional news media, social media, and then also 230 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 3: incorporate those findings into medical school curricula so that what 231 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 3: we are learning we can teach to doctors that we 232 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 3: don't have to wait for another generation of doctors who 233 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 3: don't recognize symptoms for these growing diseases just because they 234 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: were never taught about it in medical school. And then 235 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: we're also a venture philanthropy. We encouraged our researchers to 236 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 3: commercialize fundings, and we negotiate revenue sharing with funded intellectual 237 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: property from the research that we fund, so that we 238 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: can make this a sustainable organization. Because the idea that 239 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 3: this would be a philanthropy or charity just kind of 240 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: makes my blood boil. This is very much a justice 241 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: cause to me. 242 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about what the NIH and 243 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: the larger medical research issue when it comes to the 244 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: Trump administration, like is there a brain drain going on? 245 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely. We talk a lot about this pipeline for scientists. 246 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 3: I should say, we're going into women's health research. If 247 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: you can't get research funded, you can't do the work right. 248 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: And so if we are eliminating training grants that train 249 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: people how to develop careers in women's health, if we 250 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: don't fund budding scientists proposals around research and women's health 251 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: and they can't get the work funded, they're going to 252 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: go where they can get it funded, right, So we 253 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: do see a dramatic brain drain. People are looking to 254 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: move outside of the United States so that they can 255 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: get their women's health research funded, and not just for 256 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 3: women's health, but other areas that were cut as well. 257 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: So absolutely we're seeing a brain drain. And I think 258 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: you know, it's not only the junior scientists, it's also 259 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 3: the mid level scientists who are experiencing huge cuts to funding. 260 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: So our doctors have talked about our Medical Advisory Board 261 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: has advised that we keep our grants in lower amounts 262 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 3: this year so that you know, we can attract more 263 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 3: junior and mid level scientists. The truth is that very 264 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: senior scientists are going to be able to find private 265 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: funding sources for their research, and they're looking for like 266 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: one to five million dollar grants. The ones who are 267 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: going to suffer and don't have a path forward in 268 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: this career are the ones who are junior or mid level. 269 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: And so that's the gap that we're going to try 270 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: to fill, hopefully in a transitional way until we have 271 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: you know, a new administration. 272 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean where do these scientists go? 273 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 3: I mean a lot are going to Europe, Canada. I 274 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: guess it depends specifically what your area of expertise is 275 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: and where you can find a job. I mean, there's 276 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 3: no certainty that you're going to be able to find 277 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: a job at an international university either, right, especially when 278 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: your entire network is in this country, because this is 279 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: where you've trained and studied, right. God, so we are 280 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 3: just losing the whole generation unless we do something to 281 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 3: fill the gap right now and urgently. 282 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, such a dark moment in American life. 283 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: It is. And also we are all already coming from 284 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: a deficit. American women are more likely to die from 285 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: avoidable causes than women in other countries. We're more likely 286 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: to die of heart disease than women in other countries. 287 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: We have more deaths and childbirth than women in other countries. 288 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: We're more likely to require multiple medications than women in 289 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 3: other countries. Like, if anything, this is something we should 290 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: be deeply invested in, especially because there's a return on investment. 291 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: McKinsey Health put together this wonderful report looking at the 292 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: economic return on investment and investing in women's health, and 293 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 3: it's remarkable the amount that we can add to the 294 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: GDP if we invested in healthy years of life for women. 295 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 3: It's kind of a no brainer argument if you take 296 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: the politics out of it and look at this from 297 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: a rational lens. 298 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly true. Thank you so much, Katie, Thanks Mollie. 299 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: Sam Tennenhaus is a writer at The Prospect and the 300 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: author of Fuckly, The Life and the Revolution that Changed 301 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: America Welcome Too Fast, Politics, Sam tenan House. 302 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 4: Not only am I happy to be here, I get 303 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 4: to say I've been wondering will I ever get to 304 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 4: do Molly's podcast? And I was so psyched, and you 305 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 4: told me and wanted me to do it. 306 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: So I am here, and I have to tell you 307 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: the joke is so. 308 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: Sam tenan House is a very fancy I'm going to 309 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: give you a very fancy introduction. He's fancy literary critic 310 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: for a million years, was the editor in chief of 311 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: The New York Times Book Review for about a decade, 312 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: and now writes very serious and important and literary biographies. 313 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: And I kept seeing that he was on this podcast 314 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: called Know Your Enemy, which is a very smart podcast 315 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: by too, very very intellectual but somewhat left leaning. I 316 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: mean that not as a criticism, but as a describer. 317 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: And I was like, they. 318 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: Get to have Sam ten in house, Well, then I 319 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: should get to have Sam ten in house. But I 320 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: didn't have your email. So I was like, I'm never 321 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: going to be able to get Sam ten in house 322 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: because I don't have his email. And then I ran 323 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: into you at a tell was your program? 324 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 4: So here we are, here, we are with some much 325 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 4: to talk about, So let's do it. 326 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: Let's talk about it. So this is the kind of 327 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: biography that I love. 328 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: And William F. Buckley tell us Why William F. Buckley matters? 329 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 4: He matters because Molly, there's so many ways to answer it. 330 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 4: As a guy wrote about the book Nice Piece, Jim 331 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 4: Walcotts and Airmail. There were so many different facets to 332 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 4: Buckley that you are literally dazzled by him. But here's 333 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: what I'll start with. This is the guy with the 334 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 4: age of twenty five when he just graduated from Yale 335 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 4: in nineteen fifty, turned your clock back, invented the culture 336 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 4: wars we're living in right now. Everything you're hearing said 337 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 4: about Harvard Cha right now, change some of the vocabulary 338 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 4: and you're hearing Bill Buckley say it about Yale in 339 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty. Only them was a shock because he was 340 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: Numero uno big man on campus. And then he calls 341 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 4: them out. He claims, you know, the towers of the 342 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 4: Abbey leaguer Chase filled with radical Hainesians and atheists, and 343 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 4: it causes an amazing sensation. And that's the beginning of 344 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 4: the modern conservative movement in America. 345 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: So I read this book called America Last, which was 346 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: about how the right has always been kind of obsessed 347 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: with authoritarian dictators like Franco and has always loved those people. 348 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: And it got me thinking about this idea of William 349 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: of Buckley, And do you think it's right that William F. 350 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: Buckley walked so that people like Rush Limbaugh could run. 351 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 4: Well, you're talking about Jacob Hobburn's great book, yeah, which 352 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 4: I read in various drafts, and Buckley is in it, 353 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 4: as you know, I mean, book is endorsed by Buckley's son, Christopher. 354 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: And you're right when you say, not only that WFB 355 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 4: will call him William Buckley. Bill Buckley made Rush Limbaugh possible. 356 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: He anointed Limbaugh, he did. Yeah, that's very good. Wow, 357 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 4: that comes near the end. 358 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just halfway through. 359 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 4: Sorry, Yes, since I know you have some very super 360 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 4: smart literary listeners. You know there are not that. 361 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: I really do. I have to say that there will. 362 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 4: Be interested in one of my favorite lines in the book, 363 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 4: which I wrote early on but didn't get to use 364 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: to the right moment came, and that is and I'll 365 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 4: set it up. When god Man at Yale, William Buckley's 366 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 4: first book was published, his publisher here in the US, 367 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 4: Regnary Books, which was a more distinguished publisher than it 368 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 4: later became, hoped that maybe TS. Eliott, the poet laureate 369 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 4: and at that moment probably the best known literary person 370 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: in the English speaking world. Your mother could recite poems 371 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 4: by T. S. Elliott Buckley, Hoping Elliott will publish god 372 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 4: Man at Yale. And he says, I like young mister 373 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 4: Buckley's book. I think he's made a few strategic errors, 374 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 4: so I don't think we'll do it in England, but 375 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 4: I wish him every six and the twenty five year 376 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 4: old Buckley classic young guy says well, I'm appalled and 377 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 4: aghast that TS. Eliot has misunderstood my important book. So 378 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 4: what I say in my book when you get near 379 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 4: the end is the same man who once saw the 380 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 4: blessing of T. S. Eliot now bestowed that blessing on Russia. 381 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: Limbaugh. 382 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 4: Wow, yes, wow, And so I think, what does that mean? 383 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 4: It means that even if you are the brilliant, area 384 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 4: die and wonderful person that Bill Buckley was much of 385 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 4: the time. Get my wife talking to you about Bill 386 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 4: Buckley and how gracious and kind he was. He's the 387 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 4: kind of man who actually takes the women in the 388 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 4: room seriously and says, where are you from? What are 389 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 4: your interests? And again that a little bit later. But 390 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 4: this guy understood. Buckley understood you don't win elections, you 391 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 4: don't win the culture war if you don't have Joe McCarthy, 392 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 4: one of the first guys he was involved, Wow, worked 393 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 4: very closely with You have a guy like Joe McCarthy, 394 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 4: you don't have a guy like Rush Limbaugh. And which 395 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: is what I also note that it should not have 396 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 4: been surprising, though it was to many Bill Buckley would 397 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 4: take up Rush Limbaugh because he'd been the most articulate, 398 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 4: impassioned defender of Senator Joseph McCarthy. In fact, if you 399 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 4: go to the George Clooney play about Edward Murrow, Buckley's 400 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 4: mentioned in it because when Joe McCarthy was not ready 401 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: to answer, right, Murrow makes his famous attack on McCarthy 402 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 4: and the hearings and how he's interrogating people and brutally 403 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 4: and humiliating these inoffensive people, and Edward R. Murrow goes 404 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 4: after McCarthy and says, will you respond to me? And 405 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 4: Joe McCarthy says, well, I don't think I want to 406 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 4: do it, but I've got a young guy here, Bill Buckley, 407 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 4: will do it instead. And Murrow would not let Buckley 408 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 4: on because he knew Buckley was a ray in debate 409 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 4: and that Buckley might be able to make a case 410 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 4: for McCarthy. And that's what made people nervous about him. 411 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 4: He was really really good at making his argument, even 412 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: when the argument seemed kind of off the charts. And 413 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 4: we see some of that now right now. You go 414 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 4: on all these shows, Mole, you talk with other people, 415 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 4: and you know there are some people there on the 416 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 4: other side who are really really good at it. They're 417 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 4: really good at it, and he was, yeah, and that 418 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 4: was his thing, so he'd invite you on his program. 419 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 4: You might be a great novelist like Norman Mailer, who 420 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 4: was his friend, or the great columnist Murray Kempton also 421 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 4: his friend. 422 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to stop and just sort of 423 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: catch readers up just a little bit to this sort. 424 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 2: Of exactly what this was. One to one William F. Buckley. 425 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: He becomes a public intellectual. He has a show called 426 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: firing Line. It is the equivalent of CNN today. 427 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 4: Is that fair? Yes? Yes, although I'll tell you something 428 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 4: about that, Molly. Not long before he died, the big 429 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 4: new cable news network that was very successful was Fox, 430 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 4: and you'll remember then, young though you are the big 431 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 4: bad guy was Bill O'Reilly. So I said to Bill Buckley, 432 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 4: who was known for being a tenacious debater, so what 433 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: do you think of Bill O'Reilly? He said, no, he 434 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 4: said he's a bully. He's a bully. Buckley was not 435 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 4: going to be a bully. He was going to try 436 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 4: to make you look bad, but he was not going 437 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 4: to be a bully. He's not going to do funny 438 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 4: things with the camera so that you look bad. He 439 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 4: would sit in a chair, both of you were there 440 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 4: facing each other, and you would have to I did 441 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 4: that program once and a million years ago, and you'd 442 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 4: have the conversation with him, and he would listen. He 443 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 4: was a great listener. Many people told me Bill Buckley 444 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 4: was the greatest conversationalist they'd ever know, And I thought, 445 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 4: why is that? I've been in his company. I met 446 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 4: him in nineteen ninety I booked when I was writing 447 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 4: a previous book. And he's a wonderful guy, and he's 448 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 4: very bright, and he's smart, he speaks well. But the 449 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 4: best conversationalist ever. Then I realized what they meant, the 450 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: best listener ever. He just hung on every word you said, 451 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 4: so he could turn it around and use it against you. 452 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: Oh, so he could turn around to use it against you. 453 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 4: That Yeah, yeah, I call it predatory attentiveness. 454 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 455 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: So. But let's talk about Buckley and the public intellectual 456 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: for a minute, because one of the things that happened 457 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: during his time as kind of the grandest public intellectual. 458 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 2: Is that he decides in nineteen. 459 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: Sixty eight to debate Gorvidal. I'd love you to talk 460 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: a little bit about is a really important democratic convention 461 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: for any number of reasons that actually don't not relate 462 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: to modern day. So talk to us through I would 463 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: love you to just do us do like two minutes 464 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: on the nineteen sixty eight Democratic Convention and the Buckley 465 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: Gorvidal debate. 466 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 4: Well to set it up quickly, MA they debated through 467 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 4: both conventions, so it's be a dozen debates on ABC, 468 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 4: which was the smallest of the networks, and did not 469 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 4: want to do gabble the gable coverage. So they took 470 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 4: the most articulate guy in the right WAYM. F. Buckley, 471 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 4: and they said, who's the one guy you don't want 472 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 4: a debate? And he said, do not put me in 473 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 4: a room with Gorbadal. And they think, okay, they know 474 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 4: how to do TV good, we'll get Gorbadal. So the 475 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 4: two of them are going at each other first in 476 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 4: Miami where the Republicans have their convention that nominated Richard Nixon. 477 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 4: And what Vidal does is, and I have all this 478 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 4: in detail in the books. He thought Buckley was gay. 479 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 4: Many people thought Buckley was gay, but that Buckley was 480 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 4: hiding it. So Vidal's going to flush him out. 481 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: Which is very common to be closeted gay back then, 482 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: is very very common left right. 483 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 4: It didn't matter what your politics were. Buckley's homes were 484 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 4: filled with gay people. He and his wife Fido were 485 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 4: great friends with Truman, Capodi and Phil Blast and you 486 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 4: name them. That's the world they lived in. But politically 487 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 4: it could be very damaging. And Vidal was in the closet, 488 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 4: which you don't realize because everybody was. So Buckley goes 489 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 4: after him, and Vidal set up. He's prepared for this 490 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 4: and he starts gabating Buckley by making very clever comments. 491 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 4: It calls him the Marie Antoinette of the right wing, 492 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 4: which then became a headline in a New York Times 493 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 4: book review review of Buckley's next collection. It's a very 494 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 4: cleverly written review and at the bottom, when you see 495 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 4: the id with the reviewer, it says, mister Mario Puzo's 496 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 4: new book will be about the mafia. It was Maria 497 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 4: known had heard of him, and the Godfather is about 498 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 4: to come out and he's going after Bucker. So now 499 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 4: they're in Chicago, and Chicago was the most tumultuous nomination 500 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 4: convention in modern history. Some will remember before Kamala Harris 501 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 4: was nominated, the fear the Democrats had in Chicago was 502 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 4: that it would be another nineteen sixty eight students protesting, 503 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 4: this time over Gaza police clashing with them. That's exactly 504 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 4: what happened in Chicago. It really did become violent. There 505 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 4: was what was later determined to be a police riot. 506 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 4: There were non violent student protesters. Alan Sorkin made a 507 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 4: series about it a couple of years ago. Attacked by 508 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 4: the police. That's right, the sork thing is quite accurate. Well, 509 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 4: the night that the most tempestuous, dangerous night, violent night. Now, 510 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 4: Buckley and Vidal are facing each other in the studio 511 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 4: and the moderator, Howard K. Smith of ABC says to 512 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 4: Gore Vidal, don't you think it's a bit much that 513 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 4: these anti Vietnam war protesters are holding up flags and 514 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 4: making chance in defense of the enemy, the communists in 515 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 4: North Vietnam? And Bucky says yes. And Smith says, isn't 516 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 4: that like being pro Nazi in World War Two? And 517 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 4: Bucky says, yes, it's like being a Nazi. And Vidal 518 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 4: says the only Nazi in this room, Bill is Hugh. 519 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: And Buckley loses and he says, stop calling me a Nazi. 520 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 4: You ink we're television Molly nineteen sixty eight. You think 521 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 4: wear I'll sock you in your goddamn face and you'll 522 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 4: stay blasted. And what happens in your what you can 523 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 4: see it, you know in that great film, A Best 524 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 4: of Enemies. 525 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 2: Right, That's what I was thinking about, because I had 526 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 2: just wanted to. 527 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, you see a smile come in Vidal's face. He 528 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 4: knows he's got him, he knows he's got Buckley, that 529 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 4: he's made Buckley lose it because Buckley's whole thing is 530 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 4: cerebral coolness. Oh really, mister Vidal, Oh quaink. He doesn't 531 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: say that, he starts name calling him. And what I 532 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 4: found is why I write these books privately. That's how 533 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 4: we often referred to Vandal. So what happened was that 534 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 4: thing got unleashed in him. Vidal knew that he could 535 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: do that, he would he press the button. And Buckley 536 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 4: never overcame that Vidal didn't care. Was a big joke 537 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 4: to him. But Buckley was really crushed by it. You 538 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 4: have to remember, not only he's a brilliant erud eye guy, 539 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 4: he's famous for this super sophisticated, ornate vocabulary. Now television 540 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 4: sets across the country, it's like trump parents are putting 541 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 4: their hands over their children's ears, you know, they don't 542 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 4: want to hear somebody talk to somebody else like that. 543 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 4: And it was a big event in that culture. Ten 544 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 4: million people saw it and it was a shocker. 545 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. So interesting. 546 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: Now you break some news in this book, and I'd 547 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: love you to talk about it. 548 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 4: All right, there's news of all kinds. 549 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what I'm talking about. 550 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 4: I know what you're talking about, which is that the 551 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 4: Buckleys are always thought of as and is true living 552 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 4: in this gorgeous estate in northwest Connecticut as its goal, Sharon, Connecticut. 553 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 4: Bill Buckley and his nine siblings grew up in this 554 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 4: magnificent estate forty seven acres date the kind of place 555 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 4: you have in back in the nineteen thirties and forties 556 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: when they're growing up, but you have a dozen servants 557 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 4: doing the lawns and grooming the horses in the stables 558 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 4: and all those. But they had a second home too, 559 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 4: and the second home was a winter estate in South Carolina. 560 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 4: And when the Buckley family, his parents were both from 561 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 4: the South, his father from South Texas, his mother from 562 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 4: New Orleans. When they went to Camden, South Carolina, where 563 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: the other house was, they were the Southerners coming home. 564 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: And they became very much involved in nineteen fifty four 565 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 4: in what was called Massive Resistance, and that was the 566 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 4: White South attempt to disobey, which they did quite successfully. 567 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 4: Sounds familiar the Supreme Court decision outlawing school segregation, the 568 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 4: Brown Decision. The Buckley family sponsored and paid for a 569 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 4: newspaper that sided with the segregar a South. It was 570 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 4: called the Citizens Councils. Back then, there were the Uptown 571 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 4: plan there were the businessmen who were you know, they 572 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 4: didn't wear the hoods, you know, and have funny names. 573 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 4: But they would say, we understand you loaned money to 574 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 4: a member of the NAACP. I'm afraid your credit is 575 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 4: no longer good at our bank. And the Buckleys were 576 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: right in the center of it. It was a shock 577 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 4: or they didn't tell anybody about it. Yeah, yeah, I 578 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 4: discovered it in you know, the research you do and interviews, 579 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 4: because I thought I was going to write about another 580 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 4: newspaper in town. Because when you write these historical narratives, 581 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 4: I'm a storyteller. You use newspapers to give you, you know, 582 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 4: capture the color of the scene and give it lots 583 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 4: of details. So I went through I thought I was 584 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 4: going to be looking at something called the Camden Chronicle, 585 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 4: and then the archivist in Camden said, I think you 586 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 4: mean the Camden News. The Buckley paper. She hadn't read it. 587 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: Nobody down there had read it. They didn't know that. 588 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 4: When you turned to page three in the very first issue, 589 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 4: and you'll see the photograph in my book, you see 590 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 4: an invitation an ad, a full page ad inviting all 591 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: white citizens of Kershaw County to join attend the meetings 592 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 4: of the Citizens Council with a statement of principles. We 593 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 4: oppose race mixing in the schools. We oppose the NAACP, 594 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 4: which does not have the best interests of our colored 595 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 4: citizens in mind. You almost can't believe what you're reading. 596 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 4: And yet the Buckleys were incredibly kind, generous people, including 597 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 4: to the help. To tell that story was the most 598 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 4: exciting and difficult thing I had to do in the book, 599 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 4: because you have to enter it's like a twilight zone. 600 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 4: It's one that even you and I who are like 601 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 4: into the past, right, we don't get this stuff. We've 602 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 4: never seen it. And there it was. There it was, 603 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 4: and they never talked about it up north, but they 604 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 4: did in the South. So if you opened up the 605 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 4: Charleston newspaper, the Charleston News Courier, which was there big, 606 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 4: the big state newspaper, you would see casual references to 607 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 4: the Buckley's and their newspaper fighting for the white citizens 608 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 4: of South Carolina. I don't know how he got away 609 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 4: with that, I really don't. So that's what I mean. 610 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 4: There's other news, but that's the core one I think 611 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 4: you're talking about. Yeah, that is because it changed the movement. 612 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very instructive about Buckley and also 613 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: just about the fantasy that trump Ism is somehow completely 614 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: unconnected to the Republican Party of old. 615 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 4: That's it. That's it. I mean, you just said it. Yeah, 616 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 4: and think about when that's happening. Because it's a timeline 617 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 4: component to all of this, which is so important. All 618 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 4: of you people out there will run to write these 619 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 4: big histories. You have to have a timeline. You have 620 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 4: to either put it out on a piece of paper 621 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 4: or your computer. Whatever. The timeline here, Molly is at 622 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 4: the very moment that Buckley's first hero, Joseph McCarthy is 623 00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 4: being exposed and humiliated by Ed Murrow and in television hearings. 624 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 4: At that same moment is when the Brown decision came 625 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 4: down and the movement shifted from being about anti communism 626 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 4: to being protecting the I'm going to use National Review 627 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 4: in Buckley's terms, the mores and cultural folk ways of 628 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 4: the Old South. 629 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really important point. Thank you, thank you, 630 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: thank you. Sam Tennan House. What's next for you? 631 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 4: I'm going to write a little book about the Black Panthers. 632 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: Oh fabulous. 633 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, and a guy named Clarence Thomas because they were 634 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 4: all in it together. 635 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 3: At you. 636 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: I've heard of him. Wow, he went to Yale with 637 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: the Black Panthers. 638 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 4: He was basically a panther himself when he started out. 639 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: Clarence Thomas was a black panther. 640 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 4: He was a black power guy who attended Black Panther rallies. Wow. 641 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: Wow, you heard it here, yes, all over the place, 642 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: Sam Tennanhouse. 643 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 4: Pleasure, Mollie. Thank you. 644 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 645 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 646 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 647 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 648 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. 649 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.