1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 3: Could they be true? 10 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 2: Or are we being manipulated? 11 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 12 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 4: This is part two of our interview with Adam's friend 13 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 4: Drew McCoy. Drew McCoy as a host of the podcast 14 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 4: Genetically Modified Skeptic. Last week we were discussing the overlap 15 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 4: between religion and conspiratorial thinking. So let's pick up where 16 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 4: we left off for part two. 17 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 2: I got a not a long PERI Rasia. I got 18 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: a question for you. How do you view the conflation 19 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: now between the Trumpest movement and evangelicals where Trump himself 20 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: is fulfilling biblical prophecies according to some people, right, so 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: this itself is a conspiracy theory that Trump is not 22 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: if he plays in his own realizes this thing that 23 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 2: the world is screwed up in God sent Trump. He 24 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: plays this himself, and he plays into this. How do 25 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: you view that the sort of the religiousification of trump Ism. 26 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 5: Well, Trump is a populist, right, so he's saying that 27 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 5: there's this big conspiracy against him, against the common man. 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 5: They need to drain the swamp, they need to abolish 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 5: the deep state, all of these things. And this just 30 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 5: has a hand in hand relationship with pre existing pre 31 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 5: Trump Evangelical Christian theology. We believe that the world was 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 5: ruled by the prince of this world, Satan. That's something 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 5: that I was raised to believe and is to be 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 5: sold this idea that, oh, all of my political opponents, 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 5: everyone that's against the Trump brand is just a part 36 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 5: of the deep state, a part of a Satanic conspiracy theory. 37 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 5: It's the most natural thing in the world. It's the 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 5: easiest thing to possibly see coming if you grew up 39 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,919 Speaker 5: in the evangelical world. 40 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 6: I think for those of us not in the world, 41 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 6: it's one of the great puzzles of our age, Like, 42 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 6: how is it possible that these people who got so 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 6: outraged by Bill Clinton's now almost quaintctions a blowjob could 44 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 6: embrace this theatrically libertine. I mean the only way he 45 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 6: describes himself is as immoral, I mean literally playing with 46 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 6: the ideas of incest and constant sexual immorality. So for 47 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 6: I think, for us outside, it just seems utterly confounding. 48 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 6: It just makes no sense. But you're saying, for you, 49 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 6: it's there's no mystery, it's just obvious. Yeah. 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 5: I think a lot of people from the outside see 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 5: Christianity and religion in general is nothing more than a 52 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 5: moral framework, and the moral framework of any given religion 53 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 5: is usually very important and somewhat central. But people from 54 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 5: the outside looking into something like evangelical as will not 55 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 5: see the narrative framework, the interpretive framework for just everyday 56 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 5: life that occurs in these circles. So while yes, evangelicals 57 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 5: are very puritanical about sex and drugs and to a 58 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 5: certain extent, alcohol, certainly they don't approve of making sexually 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 5: suggestive comments about your own children, that's for sure. They 60 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 5: do see a deeply dualistic reality in everything, and when 61 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 5: someone comes along and says that they represent pure good 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 5: fighting pure evil, that's a pretty strong selling point, especially 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 5: when you are able to hit on points like bureaucracy 64 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 5: itself is flooded with people who are fundamentally evil, which 65 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 5: is like a subplot in the evangelical Christian narrative. So 66 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 5: we really can't get hung up too much on just 67 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 5: thinking of anything within religion, anything within evangelicalism, as just 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 5: some kind of moral framework for people to follow. We 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 5: have to look at the stories, the myths, the legends 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 5: that they tell themselves in everyday life that they teach 71 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 5: their children. 72 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: But if someone like Biden had done the same myths 73 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: and said, you know, I'm finding evil, would that have worked. 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: It seems to me that it already fits into a 75 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: narrative of right wing. 76 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 5: It's really hard to say. I do think that Biden 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 5: probably would have had a harder time going against somebody 78 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 5: who does not have any prior affiliation with the Catholic Church. 79 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 5: The evangelical vote used to be quite anti Catholic. Now 80 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 5: it's getting a lot more ecumenical. In order to vote 81 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 5: for someone like Trump, in order to support people like 82 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 5: pundits like Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles who are Catholic, 83 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 5: it's got to become more ecumenical. But I think that 84 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 5: if you were to put two candidates in opposite opposition 85 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 5: to each other, all things being equal, except for one 86 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 5: having more of a Protestant background, like Trump, arguably versus 87 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 5: Joe Biden, who's a long time Catholic. I would see 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 5: the person with more of a Protestant background probably out. 89 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: On the ecumenical part on gob Smith, that someone like 90 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: Tulci Giebert, someone who belongs to a breakaway Hari Krishna 91 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: sect that believes that this guy Chris Butler is the 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: literal word of God on earth and must be obeyed. 93 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: And someone like this running in charge of CIA and 94 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: the US intelligence community. I'm shocked that the evangelical community 95 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: is like fine with it, and it seems to me 96 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: that almost the Great Man is more important than anything. 97 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: I also want to ask how you escaped from that mindset. 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 6: I mean, everything we talked about on this show. I 99 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 6: was looking at some statistics. Twenty seven percent of evangelical 100 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 6: Christians believe QAnon is mostly true, highest group by far, 101 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 6: I think, double any other group. Over sixty percent believe 102 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 6: that the election was stolen. In twenty twenty, fifty five 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 6: percent believed that there's a deep state that you guys 104 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 6: are representatives of that is controlling outcome. So that doesn't 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 6: feel like a very practical political project that we just 106 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 6: have to take fifty five percent of evangelical Christians and 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 6: get them to no longer be evangelical Christians, which we 108 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 6: don't want to do in and of itself. It's just 109 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 6: how do you break the conspiracy theory? 110 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 5: I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. I don't 111 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 5: think that when it comes to evangelicals and conspiracy theories, 112 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 5: that the call is only coming from inside the house 113 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 5: at this point. I think that the evangelical conspiracy mill, 114 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 5: the circling the wagons to protect religious identity infrastructure that's 115 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 5: in place, is the only thing that is producing conspiracy theories. 116 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 5: I think that the fact that evangelicals have harved a 117 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 5: path in American society so strongly of working with governments 118 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 5: ken Ham's Ark encounter, being able to work with local 119 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 5: governments in Kentucky in order to get taxpayer dollars to 120 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 5: support his mission of building a Noah's Ark based theme 121 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 5: park for fundamentalist Christians, his project of getting DVDs that 122 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 5: talk about creation quote science and sending them to schools 123 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 5: to be actually used a science curriculum. That path having 124 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 5: been carved in American society means that kind of morally 125 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 5: flexible grifters who don't care about religion, they don't care 126 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 5: about the Gospel or anything like this, can just jump 127 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 5: directly in that path that's already been carved. They can 128 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 5: copy it, and then they can also prey on an 129 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 5: audience that has been psychologically primed to accept conspiracy theories 130 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 5: when it comes to something like QAnon. I don't think 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 5: that it is the most devout of evangelicals that are 132 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 5: actually taking that up. I think it's people who identify 133 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 5: as evangelical, yes, and maybe we're primed to accept things 134 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 5: like conspiracy theories, But I don't think that it's people 135 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 5: who are in church super regularly, who are really integrated 136 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 5: into religious community and this sort of thing, you know, 137 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 5: strong enmeshment in religious life, that are the strongest believers 138 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 5: in q If you can indulge me in a little 139 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 5: bit of analysis of some of the psychological components of 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 5: a person who accepts conspiracy theories, if we look at 141 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 5: the research that we've seen some psychologists do in the past, 142 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 5: had to twenty years or so. This is I'm sourcing 143 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 5: this from American studies scholar Peter Knight. He said that 144 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 5: psychologists have developed an ever more detailed picture of what 145 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 5: we call the conspiratorial mind. They found correlations between conspiracy 146 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 5: thinking and personality traits such as paranoia, narcissism, suspiciousness, and cynicism, 147 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 5: as well as feelings of alienation it's a really important one. Uncertainty, powerlessness, 148 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 5: that's a really important one. Anxiety and loss of control 149 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 5: another important one. If we look at the people who 150 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 5: attend church and are the most enmeshed in evangelical communities, 151 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 5: these are not poor lonely people. Actually people who go 152 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 5: to evangelical church, which more often people that go weekly, 153 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 5: are actually the folks that tend to have more money 154 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 5: and more power and are just have more stable lives 155 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 5: in general. So per Ryan Burge, as one becomes more educated, 156 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 5: the less likely they are as an evangelical to be 157 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 5: someone who rarely or seldom or never attends church. Now, 158 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 5: the same is true of income. The richer you get, 159 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 5: the more likely you are of being a regularly attending evangelical. 160 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 5: So I think that we need to consider the idea 161 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 5: that maybe people who are horror people who are not 162 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 5: in Meshan religious communities that identify as evangelicals might be 163 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 5: the people who are most up for grabs for like 164 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 5: morally flexible grifters who pretend to be evangelicals, people like 165 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 5: Q to gain power to manipulate people. I think that 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 5: it's probably poor, not particularly and meshed lonely people who 167 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 5: identify as evangelical, who are actually gravitating toward these conspiracies 168 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 5: in the most extreme way. 169 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back, Drew. 170 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: I saw your video about becoming an atheist. I thought 171 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: it was very interesting and very well argued. You've become 172 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: an atheist, obviously there was a community that you were 173 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: in before. What is it that you've kept from your 174 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: past religious belief Have you totally broken from those sort 175 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: of viewer? What is it you still keep even if 176 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: it's not part of a specific religion. 177 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 5: I do think that I've kept a certain amount of 178 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 5: the Protestant Christian moral framework. I like to think that 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 5: I'm not as prone to conspiracy theories, but I guess 180 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 5: maybe that's not entirely for the individual to judge. Always, 181 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 5: I still cite certain teachings of both the Apostle Paul 182 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 5: and Jesus as not the moral foundations for my kind 183 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 5: of moral ideology, but the catalysts or the impetus for 184 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 5: the moral foundations that I do have. So if you 185 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 5: look at the story of the Good Samaritan, you know 186 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 5: found in the Gospel of Luke, there's this idea of 187 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 5: that you should love and support your neighbor, that you 188 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 5: should show them kindness, you should express altruism to people 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 5: who are not in your in group, and in fact 190 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 5: that the ability to do this maybe is the truest 191 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 5: indication of moral righteousness, or at least centeredness. And that 192 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 5: is something that I think that very parables focused Protestant 193 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 5: Christians actually are pretty good at teaching their kids a 194 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 5: lot of the time. I like to think that my 195 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 5: parents did a good job of teaching me that kind 196 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 5: of thing. I definitely credit them for that. I don't 197 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 5: think that people like my parents, Evangelical Christians who are 198 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 5: very conspiratorial, do a particularly good job of actually acting 199 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 5: upon the things they've taught their children. I see myself 200 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 5: as representative of kind of a generation of Evangelicals who 201 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 5: took to the moral teachings of Jesus, and we ran 202 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: with them so hard that we ran up against the 203 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 5: church communities that we saw as betraying them. So in 204 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 5: a way. I think that becoming an atheist morally speaking, 205 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 5: was one of the most Christian decisions I have ever made. 206 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 5: I was taught about discernment, about moral purity, and in 207 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 5: order to abide by what I thought was right, both 208 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 5: morally and philosophically and scientifically, I had to get out 209 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 5: of the church community and be something else. 210 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: Was there a damascene moment or cascade of events where 211 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: you woke up one morning and like, yeah, I don't 212 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: believe anymore. 213 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 5: I describe my exodus from Christianity as a set of 214 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 5: dominoes falling, and the first domino fell, and then after 215 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 5: or maybe years, another domino fell, and with every domino 216 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 5: there's an acceleration of these dominoes falling, and eventually, within 217 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 5: a period of just a few months, which was right 218 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 5: around the time when I was graduating from college, most 219 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 5: of the dominoes started to fall. So it started with 220 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 5: me really questioning the creation narrative that I was taught, 221 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 5: and then eventually going into grad school and studying human sexuality. 222 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 5: It was the moral narrative that homosexuality was an abomination, 223 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 5: even though, as far as I could tell, trying to 224 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 5: suppress someone's sexual orientation is actually extremely harmful for them. 225 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 5: And eventually, you know, that led me to just fundamentally 226 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 5: questioning the nature of God in existence and of the supernatural. 227 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 5: And I got to the point again over a matter 228 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 5: of years of slow deliberation and contemplation into a period 229 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 5: of a few months, I would say about four months 230 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 5: of really extremely intense philosophical moral delay liberation that led 231 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 5: me out of identifying as a Christian. The silver lining 232 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 5: to the awful experience was that I didn't feel bad 233 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 5: about finally reading all of the educational books that I 234 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 5: knew existed but I thought were wrong somehow. So me 235 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 5: actually being able to read something like the Origin of 236 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 5: the Species rather than just hearing about it was an 237 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 5: ecstatic experience for me. But there is only so much 238 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 5: reading of old, stuffy science books that can distract you 239 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 5: from social suicide. It was nearly complete social suicide in 240 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 5: a lot of ways. The reason I started my YouTube 241 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 5: channel was so that I could vent about all of 242 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 5: the ideas that were going on in my head. But 243 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 5: I just didn't have anybody to speak to in real 244 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 5: life about this. My community around me was all evangelical, 245 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 5: so I had to go online to talk about it, 246 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 5: and through that venture things absolutely have gotten better. But 247 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 5: leaving evangelical circles is, especially when you're going to become 248 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 5: an atheist, is extremely difficult. It sucks for sure. 249 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: There's a parallel in the intelligence community. So historically, some 250 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: of our best agents, people who've spied for SAA were 251 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: true believers in their own systems or their own ideologies 252 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: and the union. They believed in communism. They were some 253 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: of the stars, the best and brightest, and then, almost 254 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: mirroring your own set of experiences, they realized that they 255 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: had been either been had or that try as they might, 256 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: they simply couldn't believe the force of logic and events 257 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: and what they saw led them to break at least internally. 258 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: But they couldn't open a YouTube channel to tell the truth. Instead, 259 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: they would look up someone like John and say, I 260 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: just can't live with myself. I need someone to talk 261 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: to I need to say what I really think, And 262 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,359 Speaker 2: then that flipped off into espionage. 263 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 264 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 5: I started my channel as a way to help myself 265 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 5: to vent when I was in a really difficult social situation, 266 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 5: but eventually the channel became a way to try to 267 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 5: help other people. I started getting a lot of messages 268 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 5: a few months in that said things like I'm desperately alone, 269 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 5: no one supports me. I've never heard anyone say the 270 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 5: things that you're saying without being heavily criticized or punished, essentially, 271 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 5: And I just want you to know how therapeutic it 272 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 5: is for me to know that someone like you even 273 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 5: exists at all. And these people, these are Americans, people 274 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 5: in a country with freedom of religion, telling me that 275 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 5: what I'm saying sounds like something that has been horribly 276 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 5: suppressed and that you would suffer horrible consequences for saying. Eventually, 277 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 5: I even started getting some messages where people were saying 278 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 5: that just consuming my content and knowing that someone like 279 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 5: me existed helped the person decide against ending their lives. 280 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 5: And it's it's a honestly, it's a relatable experience. 281 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: You know. 282 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 5: When I opened that up and read it, I wasn't 283 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 5: actually very shocked that someone would say that. I was 284 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 5: maybe surprised that my little YouTube videos made that kind 285 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 5: of an impact, but I wasn't surprised the person was 286 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 5: going through that not at all as. 287 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: A CIA off. So one of the most moving episodes 288 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: for me was in the third world country. I'm sitting 289 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: at a bar. I have gotten to know this North 290 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: Korean and he's had his third drink and we're building 291 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: a genuine friendship and he like pulps hard and he 292 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: looks at me. He looks, looks over both of his 293 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: shoulders and he says, I don't really love the great leader. 294 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: And it was like what he said is a death 295 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: sentence if he'd sent this to his mother, anybody he loved. 296 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: And yet sitting across from someone, it was like, I 297 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: can say this, I'm gonna I'm safe here, And it 298 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: was like extraordinarily difficult and dangerous for him to even 299 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: entertain this idea. 300 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 3: And because you were drunk, you gave him up. 301 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, and demon in the sport. But that was something 302 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 6: I experienced in Iraq, talking to Iraqis who knew in 303 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 6: their minds they always hated Saddam. Often they would have 304 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 6: people in their life they could whisper too, but only 305 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 6: a small number. But still confronting the post Saddam world 306 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 6: was really disorienting and figuring out how to talk about 307 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 6: this kind of defining structure of their lives. I mean, 308 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 6: I remember I was in Baghdad the day Saddam was caught, 309 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 6: and then if you remember, they had those videos of 310 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 6: him looking all disheveled and poking around in his mouth. 311 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 6: I think that was a huge mistake for the US 312 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 6: to release those videos because it really I think it 313 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 6: humiliated iraqis. Like I remember sitting with my translator and 314 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 6: him just sharing like I hated him, but I had 315 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 6: a lot of pride that I'm from his country. That 316 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 6: the core narrative of my life was that this all 317 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 6: powerful genius with superpowers, like we believed on some level 318 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 6: that he could see you through the TV and knew 319 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 6: what you were thinking. And to see him that he's 320 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 6: just this old foolish man who's being pushed around and humiliated, 321 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 6: that was unbearable. Even though he hated this guy hated Saddam. 322 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 6: It sure feels like a more muscular evangelicalism is on 323 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 6: the upswing right now, and that conspiracy theory belief is 324 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 6: on the upswing right now. Weirdly, the thing you said 325 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 6: about how it's lonely isolated folks, it's actually somewhat optimistic 326 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 6: in that maybe that's an avenue that if people have 327 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 6: more connection more and again, I don't think we have 328 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 6: an agenda. We want people to have a different religion, 329 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 6: but we're not for conspiracy theories like we see them 330 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 6: as a corrosive part of our political system, and if 331 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 6: fewer people believe to them, it feels like it would 332 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 6: be better. So are there things we can do other 333 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 6: than having a kind of podcast where we mock each 334 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 6: other a lot and occasionally talk about conspiracy theories. 335 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 5: From my perspective, a thing that combats radicalization, whether it's 336 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 5: ideological or believing in conspiracy theories, whatever, is mostly human connection. 337 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 5: It's a bit counterintuitive to say, but the evangelicals that 338 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 5: I think are peddling conspiracy theories the most are the 339 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 5: people who are actually not very involved in the kind 340 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 5: of religious community in real life. They're just spending time 341 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 5: in online circles and trying to defend their identities while 342 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 5: being extremely lonely and cut off from anyone through waxing 343 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 5: poetic about conspiracy theories on four Chan or something like this. 344 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 5: I think it'd be better for if those people just 345 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 5: went to church. To be honest, as an atheist, I 346 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 5: don't agree with the epistemology within evangelical church or in 347 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 5: any kind of tradition that affirms supernaturalist ideas. But I think, 348 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 5: just on a practical level, if people are integrated into 349 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 5: communities in real life more often than I think that 350 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 5: the underlying factors that predispose you to conspiracy belief start 351 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 5: to be eroded away. If people are not in their basements, 352 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 5: or they're den or something, or on their phones just 353 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 5: peddling conspiracy theories just to feel something. If instead they're 354 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 5: in the pew and they're singing about something that makes 355 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 5: them happy and hanging out with people who like them, 356 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 5: I think they're less of a danger to people like me. 357 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 6: You've talked to me about it, I know a bit. 358 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 6: But what is it like with your family now, Like 359 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 6: they still have the same beliefs right. 360 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 5: To a certain degree, My family has the same beliefs. 361 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 5: My parents raise me independent fundamental Baptist, although they go 362 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 5: to a Southern Baptist church now, which is really similar. 363 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 5: But they're not white as dogmatic about kind of the 364 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 5: literalist younger creationism bit. They're a little bit more interested 365 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 5: in integrating into American society than fundamentalists, who are basically separatists. 366 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 5: But through the influence of alternative medicine and anti vax 367 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 5: conspiracy theories. Some people in my immediate family, on my side, 368 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 5: not on my wife's side, are anti vaxxers who believe 369 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 5: in re incarnation. They believe in chakras. 370 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 3: As fundamentalist Christians well. 371 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 5: As Evangelical Christians sevangelical Christians. The funny thing is that 372 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 5: I think because of the priming to accept pseudoscience, they 373 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 5: actually see things like reincarnation and the chakras and essential 374 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 5: oils and quantum mysticism as all having a scientific basis, 375 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 5: so they're not in conflict with Christianity. This is how 376 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 5: God made the world. He made us having a root 377 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 5: chakra and the heart chakra and things like this. But 378 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 5: if you want to receive salvation, the plan is basically 379 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 5: the same that I grew up with, and the moral 380 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 5: values that I grew up with are basically the same 381 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 5: for them as well as the whole We need to 382 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 5: drain the swamp spiritually speak. 383 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: Since you've moved away from and you become an atheist, 384 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: and you said earlier if following the values is not enough, 385 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: you're going to go to hell. How do you deal 386 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: when you deal with your family, who obviously loves you, 387 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: that they think you're going to hell? Or you would 388 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: think you're going to. 389 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 5: Hell, I should say. The first thing that I was 390 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 5: concerned about when I came out to my family as 391 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 5: an atheist was that my parents were going to think 392 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 5: I was going to Hell. And I couldn't imagine personally 393 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 5: having a family member, especially a child, that I thought 394 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 5: was going to burn in hell for all eternity. We 395 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 5: believed in a literal lake of fire. Its pretty gnarly stuff, 396 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 5: and so I didn't want to burden them with that. 397 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 5: Even if I didn't think that it was true, they 398 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 5: would think it's true, and that's enough. When I came 399 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 5: out to them, I asked them straight away. I was like, guys, 400 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 5: I'm an atheist. Do you think I'm going to Hell? 401 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 5: And they pretty immediately said no. Because there is this 402 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 5: doctrine within a subset of evangelic Christians of Once Saved, 403 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 5: Always Saved a lot of people say that if you 404 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 5: ever become an atheist or another religion when you were 405 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 5: a practicing Christian, then you never really were a true Christian. 406 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 5: But my family could not accept the idea that I 407 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 5: was never a true Christian. They raised me to be 408 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 5: a Christian. They saw me act on my Christian values. 409 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 5: They saw the evidence of the fruits of the spirit 410 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 5: in me, and their faith in my faith could not 411 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 5: be shaken, So that actually did smooth things over a bit. 412 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: But you think you're going to hell. 413 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 5: I think I'm going to hell. They don't think I'm 414 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 5: going to hell. 415 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 6: And that's how you don't believe in hell, which makes 416 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 6: it a little easier. 417 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 2: But I've got good news for you, guys. If you 418 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: go seek, they don't believe that you're going to go 419 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 2: to hell. If you live a good life, if you're 420 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: a good Christian, a good Jew, a good Muslim, a 421 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: good Hindu, you're gonna make it. 422 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break. 423 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 6: We've been talking about the connection between conspiracy theories and 424 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 6: evangelical Certain evangelical faith almost get an organic phenomenon. But 425 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 6: to what extent is this industrialized? You talked about morally questionable, 426 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 6: morally flexible grifters. If what we wanted to do is 427 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 6: make a lot of money, there's a really clear path 428 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 6: to spout these theories. So how organized is this? How 429 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 6: much dare I say, how much of a real conspira 430 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 6: is the conspiracy theory pedaling to evangelical audiences. 431 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 5: Let's talk about someone who I'm sure you guys have 432 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 5: spoken about more times than you would like. Marjorie Taylor Green. 433 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 5: Marjorie Taylor Green obviously Jewish space laser's lady, right. 434 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, she We looked into it. 435 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 6: It seems unlikely that there are Jewish space lazers. It 436 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 6: also seems impractical, just so you know. 437 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, but Marjorie Taylor Green was raised Catholic, but around 438 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 5: the time she started running for public office, she started 439 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 5: getting involved in an evangelical community called North Point Church. 440 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 5: It's a non denominational megachurch in northern Atlanta, I believe, 441 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 5: and she was publicly baptized there. She started getting integrated 442 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 5: into that church. And while her brand, while her own 443 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 5: autobiographical blurbs about herself make it sound like she's extremely 444 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 5: heavily involved in North Point in religious community, in real life, 445 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 5: I'm not so sure that's the case. So I came 446 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 5: across this really great article from Elena plot calabro And 447 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 5: that was published in the Atlantic, and she says that 448 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 5: Green's involvement per a source that Elena spoke to in 449 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 5: north Point Church, her involvement tapered off after several years 450 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 5: and Elena also noted that Brad Raffensberger, the Georgia Secretary 451 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 5: of State who defied Donald Trump, he's very long been 452 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 5: involved with North Point, and apparently no one ever really 453 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 5: asks about him. So this guy who's strongly integrated into 454 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 5: this evangelical community is someone who I most certainly remiss 455 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 5: a little bit for partisan reasons saying this about a 456 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 5: strong Republican, But he seems like a guy with a 457 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 5: pretty stable moral center, with real principles, who's willing to 458 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 5: stand up against basically attempted fascism, Whereas Marjorie Taylor Green 459 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 5: gets involved in religious communities from the outside in order 460 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 5: to gain a base that is psychologically primed to accept 461 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 5: the kind of bullshit that she spews for cash. 462 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 6: Although also I think the human brain can allow you 463 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 6: to not confront these obvious contradictions inside your head. I've 464 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 6: met enough people to feel like she has some stories 465 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 6: she tells herself where she's the hero and it's not 466 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 6: a contradiction, and she really believes something, and it's just 467 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 6: quite malleable what she believes. 468 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 5: I actually have another example that I think is interesting. Here, 469 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 5: are you guys familiar with this hundant that works for 470 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 5: the Blaze Media named alib Stucky. Sure, Okay, imagine a 471 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 5: thirty one year old, very blonde, very white woman who 472 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 5: was raised Southern Baptist and now works for the Blaze Media. Okay, 473 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 5: it's very generic image, right, that is alib Stucky. 474 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 3: You got it. 475 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 5: Alib Stucky mostly promotes conspiracy theories that are very Christian 476 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 5: identitarian focused on her show Relatable Again, produced by The Blaze. 477 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 5: It's pretty clear to me a side note here that 478 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 5: her viewership would not actually make enough money to support 479 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 5: the kind of infrastructure that she has were it not 480 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 5: for Glenn Beck's massive connections. So there's obviously serious funding 481 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 5: behind this show. I do better than alib Stucky, and 482 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 5: I am not wealthy like she is. But Ali grew 483 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 5: up in Prestonwood Baptist Church, which is actually a church 484 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 5: in Plano, Texas, where I know multiple people who go 485 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 5: every week. I have an inn at this church. Essentially, 486 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 5: I've been to this church, I've met the pastor, I 487 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 5: know people who are there all the time. When I 488 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 5: go visit family, people from the church are at their 489 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 5: house hanging out. Sometimes I happen to know from those 490 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 5: people that Alibi Stucky does not actually attend that church. 491 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 5: She goes for Christmas and Easter and basically acts like 492 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 5: a Baptist would say, like a good Catholic. Disparagingly here, 493 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 5: but in September of this year, twenty twenty four, Ali 494 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 5: was able to host a conference for four thousand attendees 495 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 5: off of her YouTube channel that's much smaller than mine 496 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 5: at Preston Wood Baptist Church. She was able to use 497 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 5: the literal physical infrastructure that exists in the evangelical community 498 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 5: to peddle right wing conspiracy theories and enrich herself even 499 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 5: though she's not actually integrated into these communities very well. 500 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 5: And unfortunately people at Preston Wood kind of let it happen. 501 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 6: I mean, you could obviously see the shared interest, and 502 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 6: it sounds like there may be some third party that 503 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 6: we don't know that's funding this and making this possible. 504 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 5: I would say, I know about it. It's mostly the 505 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 5: Wilkes brothers, but it's mostly Ferris Wilkes, actually the co 506 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 5: founder of The Daily Wire. But that's a bit of 507 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 5: an aside. Obviously, legacy media does have a big role here. 508 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 5: If we look at things like Fox News and the 509 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 5: want to be future of American conservative TV news Max 510 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 5: and Oan and things like this. That plays a role. 511 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 5: But I actually think that new media is probably a 512 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 5: bigger part of this than something like Fox News. We 513 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 5: have to realize that the Daily Wire, which is this 514 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 5: conservative media group, actually as far as I know, has 515 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 5: a larger viewer base than CNN. It has a larger 516 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 5: viewer base than Fox News. And that's just this one 517 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 5: media group with basically a handful of influencers who create 518 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 5: you know, new media, create tiktoks, create YouTube videos, create podcasts, 519 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 5: this sort of thing. But there are there's a whole litany. 520 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 5: There are dozens hundreds thousands of essentially brand new, totally 521 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 5: unconnected political pundits for the right that are able to 522 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 5: receive money from similar sources to something like the Daily Wire. Yeah, Russians, 523 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 5: so like Timpoole, this very popular new media, really big 524 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 5: name conservative podcaster, was revealed to have been receiving something 525 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 5: like four hundred thousand dollars a month from the Russian state. 526 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 5: And he's not the only one. It seems like Dave Rubin, 527 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 5: who has worked with the Daily Wire but isn't a 528 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 5: part of the Daily Wire, also was receiving money regularly Osco. 529 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: We'll do it for half that. I'm just saying, I 530 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 3: swear Moscow if you're listening. 531 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 5: And I think that if we consider the fact that 532 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 5: new media might be driving this, maybe even more so 533 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 5: than legacy media, we have to consider what happened when 534 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 5: the printing press and the Protestant Revolution went hand in hand. 535 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 5: There was a much more free market approach to religiosity, 536 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 5: to ideology, and the things that won out, at least 537 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 5: in the short term, were inflammatory ideas. It was moral panics, 538 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 5: things that drove people to burn witches. The second most 539 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 5: printed book as far as I know, after the Bible, 540 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 5: after the printing press was invented, was actually the I 541 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 5: think it's called the Malice Malificarum, which is basically a 542 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 5: witch hunting and burning book. So I think what we're 543 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 5: seeing now is a resurgence of what we might have 544 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 5: called the Satanic panic back in the nineteen eighties, where 545 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 5: there are a ton of new voices who are all 546 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 5: competing in this extremely free market, in this kind of 547 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 5: hyper capitalist ecosystem on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and 548 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 5: things like this, and they're all vying for the spotlight, 549 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 5: which means that, Okay, we have to go with what 550 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 5: works if we want to keep our careers. What works 551 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 5: moral panic, inflammatory rhetoric. I see it in my own audience. 552 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 5: When I have an inflammatory video where I am shitting 553 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 5: on someone's ideas, even in the way that I think 554 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 5: is not particularly overly inflammatory, I see that my audience 555 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 5: responds more strongly to that than just an educational video. 556 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 5: And I do think that just the fact that we 557 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 5: have the new platforms that we have is enough of 558 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 5: a factor to explain why we are having a new 559 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 5: satanic panic which is much bigger, much more influential, and 560 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 5: much more dangerous than the one we had in the 561 00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 5: nineteen eighties. 562 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 3: All Right, Drew, this was amazing. Thank you for spending 563 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: so much time. 564 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: Really, thank you for what you're doing. It's important work. 565 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I appreciate the conversation. Guys. 566 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 3: I think that the work that you. 567 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 5: Guys do is really valuable, and I've enjoyed listening and 568 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 5: I'm happy to be a part of it. 569 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 570 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 571 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 4: Implausible it is a production of honorable mention and abominable 572 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 4: pictures for iHeart podcasts.