WEBVTT - The Trans Panic Clickbait Economy 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.000 Zone media. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.760 The past few weeks, my social media feeds have been 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:14.560 more apocalyptic than usual, Oddly enough, not due to the 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.720 escalating war with Ron, the shell shocked economy, or oil prices, 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.680 but because of a wave of posts and news articles 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.880 proclaiming impending doom for trans people in the United States. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.120 Attacks on trans rites are obviously not new and have 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.879 steadily risen the past ten years, but this recent collection 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:40.840 of worrying claims are especially grim or outright genocidel justice months, 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.960 I've seen viral posts citing online articles saying that ICE 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.960 is going to round up and quote unquote disappear trans people, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.000 that the FDA is making a quote unquote registry of 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.000 trans women, and that an adult trans healthcare ban is imminent. 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.440 Welcome to it could happen here? A show about things 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.200 falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis for this episode. I'd like 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.520 to emphasize the could in it could happen here. It's not. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.319 It will definitely happen here, and there's nothing you can 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.520 do to stop it. These panic inducing claims and the 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:21.039 articles they're sourced from are referring to real things or 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:25.560 movements happening in either right wing activism or anti trans 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.720 policy and legislation, but are framed in a way to 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:35.000 maximize catastrophe, rather than actually understanding what's happening at the 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.160 moment and what we can do about it. Left unchecked, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.959 panic clickbait reduces the process of staying informed to being 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.840 in a state of constant doom and feeling hopeless against 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.640 an unstoppable enemy. Or it makes someone completely check out 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.480 and not believe anything they see online even if there 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.120 is a real pressing threat, both of which cloud our 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.760 ability to assess and respond to very real threats. For 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:04.560 the book of this episode, I'm going to focus on 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.720 an article that claims ICE is now permitted to detain 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.080 anyone for quote unquote looking trans. This reporting and the 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:15.600 online discussion around it is a microcosmatic example of how 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.160 we understand both the Trump Administration's attacks on trans people 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:24.600 and how and why ICE operates as an agency. This 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.600 story could be traced to a sub stack post with 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.160 the headline trump administration opens the door for ICE to 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.160 target anyone suspected of being trans. The sub headline continues 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.040 by reading quote under a new rule, the State Department 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.840 will be able to revoke trans people's visas over quote 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.799 unquote misrepresentation. It'll give ICE grounds to suspect all trans 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:51.680 people of being in the US illegally unquote. The information 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.880 contained in this headline is the furthest many people will 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.240 engage with the content of this article. Combining that headline 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.400 with preconceis notions about how ICE functions under the second 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.680 Trump administration makes us a very frightening claim. So what 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.960 evidence does the substack article include to support this claim? 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.720 Earlier this month, the State Department updated its policy for 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.560 the Diversity Immigrant Visa Program, also known as the Green 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.240 Card Lottery. The new rules require that applicants upload a 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.680 scan of their foreign passports, biographic and signature page to 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:31.360 cut down on fraudulent Diversity Visa Program entries. The policy 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:37.360 update also changed the gender entry to sex on application forms. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.200 In the policy rule update, the State Department wrote the 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.480 marker reflected in the sex field on any visa application, 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.680 including the entry form, should match the applicants' biological sex 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.880 at birth, even if that differs from the sex listed 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:58.000 on the applicants foreign passport or other identifying documentation. The 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.920 substack article claims this could form, say, quote, mismatch between 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:06.120 trans people's applications and their passports, something it can then 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:11.400 use to declare their applications fraudulent and disqualify them entirely. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:12.920 On quote. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.720 The first half of that sentence is true. A mismatch 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.200 may occur between the gender listed on foreign documents and 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.359 the sex the US government wants you to list on 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.440 a visa application, but it is simply not the case 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.919 that this mismatch will inevitably result in an application being 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:35.080 deemed fraudulent and then denied. The kind of fraud this 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.920 rule change is trying to combat by requiring a passport 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.800 scan is not unique to trans people, according to Malita Picasso, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.160 staff attorney for the ACLUS LGBTQ and HIV Rights Project. 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.839 Picasso said in an email that the new rule quote 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.320 seems to more directly target fraudulent activities involving third parties, 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.440 basically entering the lottery on behalf of individuals without their 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.640 knowledge and consent, shorting them for large amounts of money 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:02.839 if they are selected. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:03.640 Unquote. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.039 The stipulation requiring an applicant to list their biological sex 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:13.280 at birth on forms has actually already been State Department 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.800 policy for both immigrant and non immigrant visa applications for 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:21.080 over a year, effectively since Trump's executive order mandating the 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.640 use government officially recognized two biological sexes, which are determined 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.000 at birth, and that quote government issued identity documents, including visas, 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.839 and all forms that require an individuals sex, shall accurately 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:38.200 reflect an individual's immutable biological classification as either male or 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.080 female unquote. There's just no basis for the claim that 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.719 a mismatch between the gender listed on a foreign document 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:50.240 and the sex marked on application forms will itself quote 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:55.400 unquote disqualify someone from receiving a visa. ACLU staff attorney 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.360 Melita Picasso told me that the new policy itself recognizes 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.040 this could cause discrepancies, and that she doesn't see a 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.880 quote new or heightened risk of being accused of fraud 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:11.200 or wilful misrepresentation if a transgender person follows the instructions 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.640 by listing their sex assigned at birth on the application, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.680 even if they also file a per certificate that has 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.680 been updated to reflect. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:19.520 Their gender identity. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.120 The State Department has been aware for a while that 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.480 this kind of policy will create these kinds of mismatches. 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.120 A February twenty twenty five State Department memo reads, quote, 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.200 there may be instances when a consular officer becomes aware 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.240 that the sex listed on the foreign passport may not 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.560 be the applicant sex as defined in the executive order. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.400 In such cases, the adjudicator should confirm the applicant sex 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.440 as defined in the executive order, indicate that sex on 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.880 the visa, and add a case note documenting any discrepancy 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.480 between the passport and the visa to prevent issues at 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.560 the port of entry unquote. Later, in April of twenty 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:03.200 twenty five, the United State States Citizenship Immigration Services officially 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.359 updated their policy on requiring quote unquote biological sex on 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:13.600 immigration applications. The policy also states that quote USCIS does 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.760 not deny any immigration benefits solely based on a failure 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.240 to properly indicate that benefit requesters sex unquote. A sale 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.880 U staff attorney Milita Picasso told me that USCIS officials 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.440 have quote unquote a lot of discretion and that the 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.880 policy says that failure to list biological sex quote will 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.640 cause delays in processing the application while USCIS tries to 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:43.680 verify your sex assigned at birth unquote. Now, the State 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.320 Department has said there are grounds to deny these applications 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.920 for trans people if they make a quote willful affirmative 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:57.560 material act of misrepresentation by misrepresenting their quote unquote biological 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.240 sex at birth in application forms or to a consular 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:05.880 officer to gain entry to the United States under false pretenses. 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.760 Legally qualifying as willful mess representation is a relatively high bar, 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.600 and this language was specifically written with the intent to 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:19.720 restrict trans athletes from entering the country to play sports. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.520 The sort of misrepresentation the State Department is talking about 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.000 is if a trans woman quote unquote misrepresents her birth 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.600 sex to procure a visa or admission into the United 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.160 States for the purpose of competing in a women's sports competition. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.600 This same sports related memo, dated February twenty fourth, twenty 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.720 twenty five, also states, quote if there is a discrepancy 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.640 either in the applicants documents or in electronic constantly records, 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.040 or if other evidence casts reasonable doubt on the applicant sex, 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.800 you should refuse the case under two to two one 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.840 G and request additional evidence to demonstrate sex at birth unquote. 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.160 Section two two one ng G of the Immigration and 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:06.160 Nationality Act is a temporary visa refusal pending further documents 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.000 or information provided by the applicant. For an athlete visa, 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.000 the bar is very high and the burden is on 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.600 the applicant to prove they have the special un rare 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.760 qualities required to be eligible for a visa. But the 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:23.120 substat article doesn't just claim that being trans could disqualify 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.840 you from receiving a visa. The article escalates its claims, 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.200 stating that trans people who already have a valid visa 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.520 could have it revoked and be deported for misrepresenting their 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.440 sex in the past, citing US law that if an 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.440 alien is found to have obtained a visa quote by 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.720 fraud or wilfarely misrepresenting a material fact, they are ineligible 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.680 to be in the United States. The article also refers 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.360 to a section of the Foreig Affairs Manual which includes 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.520 providing quote a fake birth certificate in support of an 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:02.280 immigrant visa application as misrepresenting a material fact unquote. The 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.800 article goes on to assert that the Trump administration could 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:09.240 refuse to recognize trans people's amended birth certificates from foreign 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:14.080 countries and essentially consider them quote unquote fake, thus making 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:18.560 their visa eligible to be revoked by quote unquote misrepresenting 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.079 a material fact. The author of the substack links to 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.360 another one of her own articles on a new policy 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.640 regarding the issuing of US passports with sex markers reflecting 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.360 biological sex at birth. The passport policy instructs the state 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.360 department employees to check birth certificates for signs of being amended, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.679 and if they are amended, request more documents that list 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.760 sex at the time of birth, such as medical records, 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:47.360 hospital records, or early school records. ACLU staff attorney Picasso 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:52.520 says that this does not mean entire amended birth certificates 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.160 or quote unquote fake for the purposes of establishing fraud 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.800 or willful misrepresentation, which is again a high and that 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.880 Trump administration has never argued this as such. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:05.320 Quote. 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.240 I think it's dangerous to even suggest that a legally 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.440 obtained and valid birth certificate could be viewed as quote 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.480 unquote fake without a much clearer statement from the federal 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:15.680 government to that effect. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:17.720 Picsto advised in. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.559 Trump's recent travel bands, they have specifically mentioned the availability 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:26.920 of fabricated birth certificates in certain countries, and this whole 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.600 claim about trans people's visas being revoked because of applications 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:35.280 of misrepresentation is contradicted by the State Department, which said 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:39.040 last year quote. Currently, valid US visas issued prior to 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.760 the effective date of this guidance bearing a sex that 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.200 differs from the visa holder's sex as defined in executive 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:50.160 order will remain valid through its expiration date. The visa 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.040 holder does not need to apply for a new visa 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.600 with an amended sex marker until the current visa expires unquote. 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.360 So the first half of this article covers what I 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:05.080 argue are gross misrepresentations of State Department visa policy. The 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.599 second half of the article speculates on how this misrepresentation 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.160 could be enforced by ICE. In it Supreme Court ruling 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.839 last year, just as Kavanaugh wrote that ICE could detain 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.880 people based on a combination of factors such as working 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.120 a certain kind of job, ethnicity, and speaking Spanish or 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.560 talking with an accent, Kavanaugh said that ICE can detain 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.679 someone for questioning quote if they have a reasonable suspicion 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.800 based on specific articulable facts, that the person being questioned 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.000 is an alien illegally in the United States. The author 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.120 of the substat article argued that Kavanaugh's concurrence quote unquote, 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.440 effectively permitted ICE to use the fact that someone looks 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:51.280 trans as the quote specific articulable fact, allowing its officers 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.760 to question, harassed, detain, and even deport both citizens and 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.320 non citizens as long as it has a reason to 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.520 claim that being trans makes a person more likely to 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.880 be in the US illegally unquote, with this substacker adding 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.280 that because of State Department policy requiring applicants to list 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.680 biological sex at birth on forms, quote, ICE now have 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.520 the enforcement rationale to assert that trans people are more 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.400 likely than says people to have misrepresented themselves during the 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.360 visa process and therefore are more likely to have entered 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:32.160 the country unlawfully unquote. This assertion from this substacker rests 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:36.160 on the idea that looking trans makes someone more likely 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:40.400 to be in the US illegally. This idea is not 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:45.280 supported by any immigration policy memo or guideline that also 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.160 assumes that the justification for a Kavanaugh stop is the 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.800 same as the legal process of removal, which it is not. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.840 This idea was invented by the author of this article. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.079 It's not based on any enforcement directive from ICE, and 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:05.240 misrepresents what the State Department means by intentionally misrepresenting biological 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:10.480 sex in the visa application process. Discrepancies in gender markers 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.040 across government documents is not its self grounds for detention 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:19.880 or deportation. In fact, it's federal policy to create such discrepancies. Furthermore, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.760 dealing with potential discrepancies between gender markers on foreign documents 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.800 and the Trump Admin's insistence on only using biological sex 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.040 at birth on federal documents is handled by State Department 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:35.800 consular officers and USCIS employees, not ICE Enforcement and Removal 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:40.200 operations officers who work under an entirely different agency. But 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.480 the main thing that makes me believe that ICE will 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.160 not suddenly start targeting people for being trans is that 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.600 this state department policy requiring sex at birth on visa 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.040 applications isn't actually new. It's existed in some form since 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.480 February twenty twenty five for both immigrant and non immigrant visas. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.960 The only recent change is that the Green card lottery 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.520 rules have been updated to use this same language. 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:08.680 Quote. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.440 Nothing about this new rule makes it more or less 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.720 likely that ICE will be free to scrutinize trans people's 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:20.600 documents and detain those whose documents show any inconsistencies unquote, 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.520 affirmed a CLU staff attorney Melita Picasso put plainly state 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.360 department restrictions on stating assigned sex at birth on Green 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.240 card or visa applications does not give ICE any new 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.480 justification to roam around disappearing random people who quote unquote 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.640 look trans. But it could make border crossings more risky 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:47.200 for non citizens and visa applications harder to navigate and 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.600 subject to delays. This policy from the State Department is bad, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.160 but turning that into saying that ICE is now going 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.520 to round up trans people and vcode them doesn't understand 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.360 how this will actually affect immigrant trans people or trans 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:08.680 people currently in federal custody. Side note vcoding refers to 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.960 this systematic enabling of sexual abuse towards incarcerated transwomen to 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.680 please male prisoners. Near the end of the substackic article, 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.960 the author suggests that transpeople in Kansas could be at 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.240 extra risk of getting detained by ICE because of a 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:26.440 new law invalidating driver's license and birth certificates with amended 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.600 gender markers, possibly leaving some US citizens temporarily unable to 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.560 prove citizenship with a valid birth certificate. This new law 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.840 is certainly dangerous, and any attempt to strip away people's 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.400 legal id is very worrying and carries potential for abuse. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.000 In the case of Kansas, already, having a passport would 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.120 be really ideal. Otherwise, a hospital birth certificate or early 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:54.000 school records can theoretically be used to help prove citizenship, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.600 and it is worth saying that a citizen temporarily losing 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.280 documentation does not put them at the same level of 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.440 marginalized risk as an undocumented immigrant. The new Kansas law 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.160 does direct the Office of Vital Statistics to quote reissue 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:16.879 birth certificates when necessary to correct this sex identification unquote. Similarly, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.640 DMVs were instructed to reissue a quote unquote corrected license 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.040 once the invalidated one was turned in. We'll be right 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:39.520 back after these messages welcome back to it could happen here. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.400 The unsubstantiated claims made in that substack article went viral 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:50.000 across multiple social media platforms like TikTok, blue Sky, and Twitter, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.280 bolstering further speculation. Social media posts further extrapolated the potential 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.080 harm facing trans people by ICE agents beyond the claims 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.200 made in the article by saying that ICE will now 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:06.280 deport or disappear trans citizens anyone who tried to push 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.879 back on the legitimacy of those claims, were labeled dangerous 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.840 or fence for trying to quote unquote downplay the threat 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:18.480 posed by ICE assertions of new pressing danger In this 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:23.960 back and forth, discourse largely took three forms. One saying 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.000 that because ICE is already doing ex bad thing, that 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.720 means they could also start doing this new bad thing. 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.040 Two people asserting that ICE is in fact actually already 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:39.679 doing this, and three arguments based on distrust of the 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.520 government and ICE's general lack of legality. Much of the 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.200 discussion emerged from the genuine belief that ICE has been 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.760 granted new power or has been quote unquote authorized to 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.560 detain someone for looking trans, that Trump has quote unquote 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.359 opened the door for ICE to start profiling trans people, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.160 that like the stream Course ruling last year, profiling has 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.000 been essentially greenlit for trans people, or that checking the 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.000 consistency of gender markers has been added to ICE's quote 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.920 unquote jurisdiction. And to be one hundred percent clear, there's 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.040 not been any new ICE memo or policy related to transpeople, 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:24.640 gender markers or documentation being in their jurisdiction. State Department 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:29.159 policy on requiring biological sex on applications has existed for 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.360 over a year. The real danger posed by this policy 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.080 is that more trans immigrants could have their visas delayed or, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.680 in extreme cases, denied, and people may need help navigating 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:46.840 this increasingly confusing application process. Still, people have tried to 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.560 assert that ICE's intentional targeting and profiling of people for 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.920 being trans was quote unquote already happening. In the past year, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.639 ICE has detained transpeople. It's hard to to get exact 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.080 numbers on this because I stopped collecting detention data for 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.280 trans people last year to comply with Trump's anti trans 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.440 executive orders. Though we do know of attempts to deport 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.199 trans people from news reporting. Last August, ICE detained a 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.560 transwoman who over stated a visa by six years, and 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.679 in November, a transwoman who lost her lawful permanent residence 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.000 status in twenty twenty three after pleading guilty to a 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.639 felony was quote unquote inadvertently deported to Mexico despite a 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.800 court order specifically barring her from being sent to Mexico. 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.600 We have no evidence that these women were targeted for 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.879 removal on the basis of being trans. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.760 But what happened to them is still horrific. 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.200 As of now, there has been no reporting on people 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:50.800 being targeted for detention based on looking trans, because the 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.640 government has not actually argued that being transit self qualifies 0:20:54.760 --> 0:21:00.160 as reasonable suspicion of illegal presence. When I voiced skepticism 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.520 about the claims sourced from this substack article, people responded 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.840 to me saying that even if this has yet to happen, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.120 one could argue that ICE still could expand their operations 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.640 to include profiling and targeting trans people for detention, since 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.159 they're already profiling and rounding up quote unquote random brown people. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.720 After all, this podcast is called it Could Happen Here, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.119 and ICE has detained both citizens and legal immigrants and 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.439 sent them to quote unquote camps. Though this show is 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.639 called it Could Happen Here, that doesn't mean we should 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:39.080 spread unsubstantiated doom spiraling, disconnected from the material reality of 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.639 real policies advancing a fascist project. The Trump administration has 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.879 been very clear and open about targeting groups of people 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.800 flooding through our southern border, that is who ICE is 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.960 designed to target, and they have policy directing them to 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:58.000 do so, and new permission from the Supreme Court. It 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.800 is true that ICE has temporarily detained US citizens when 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.439 looking for people they suspect our undocumented immigrants. This has 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.840 been for two reasons, US citizens accused of interfering with 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:13.160 ICE activity while protesting, or because ICE suspects US citizens 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.199 may be undocumented based on factors like skin tone, occupation, 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.160 or speaking a foreign language, usually Spanish. This second group 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.400 of people then must demonstrate proof of citizenship or, if 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.520 they are immigrants, their legal status. The period they're detained 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:32.360 is supposed to be relatively short, usually a few hours, 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.520 though in extreme cases that's stretched into multiple days. When 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.359 I posted about this online, someone sent me a Wikipedia 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:45.040 article claiming it proved that ICE has deported one hundred 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:50.479 and seventy US citizens during Trump's second term. The article 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.639 actually said one hundred and seventy citizens have been detained 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.880 since Trump took office. Again, there have been a few 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:03.240 reported instances of US born citizens being deported. These are 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.840 citizen children who are deported with immigrant parents to avoid 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.000 child separation, though many many children do end up being 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:16.439 separated from their parents when their parents are deported. The 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:19.560 last argument that people fall back on is simply that 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:22.879 ICE is a completely lawless agency, and they can do 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.600 whatever it wants, including going after trans people. After all, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.800 ICE has murdered US citizens on camera in broad daylight, 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.560 but it's important to remember that happened for a reason. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:39.880 Those weren't random acts. ICE and CBP murdered people protesting 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:44.200 ICE rates targeting their immigrant neighbors. Federal agents killed people 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.720 because the protesting was an inconvenience, and there was use 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.080 of force policy and training directing them to do so. 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.760 For decades, CBP agents have killed people at the border 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:59.520 and gotten away with it. The Trump administration may not 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:02.879 carible the law, but this analysis is not based on 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:07.400 any assumptions about legality. It's based on the administration's own 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.480 stated goals, which they've been very open about, and the 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:15.800 policies and practices currently in effect, none of which relate 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:17.159 to ICE targeting. 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.000 People for quote unquote looking trans. 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:23.440 From what we know, the Kavanash stops framework have never 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:27.119 been used to target transpeople for being trans as the 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:31.400 reasonable suspicion of being illegally in the country, and there's 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.280 been no changing guidelines saying that being trans can be 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:36.360 the basis for certain stops. 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:39.040 Asserting otherwise is simply false. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:44.080 Insisting that because of State Department application policy, ICE will 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:48.439 now randomly arrest transpeople is conflating two very different things. 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:53.359 It isn't about the potential legality of ICE targeting trans people. 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:58.200 I'm simply saying there is no such directive instructing ICE 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.919 to do that. Asserting that the Trump administration is completely 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:07.560 one hundred percent unbounded by law also ignores the fact 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.280 that federal and immigration courts are still an active terrain 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:16.480 of battle. While the administration has repeatedly ignored courts and judges' orders, 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.600 people have also been successfully released from ICE custody by 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:24.240 filing habeas corpus petitions. It's not that I believe in 0:25:24.280 --> 0:25:28.040 the personal integrity of ICE agents, far from it. But 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:32.000 this concept of ICE as this vague fascist desk squad 0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:34.480 that will go after any group the Trump administration hates 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:40.160 turns ICE into this abstract idea rather than a single 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:44.520 material agency with concrete motivations and limits that leaves a 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:48.200 wake of destruction in the course of achieving their purpose. 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:54.080 ICE does raids where there's high concentrations of immigrant workers. 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.840 The targeting isn't actually random. ICE is going after undocumented 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:02.960 immigrant workers, sometimes using skin and language as a rough 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:08.479 proxy to do document checks to assert the inevitability of 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:12.840 ICE going after trans people, People invoke comparisons to the Nazis, 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:16.040 and as rhetorically useful as it is to equate ICE 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:19.719 to a modern version of the Gestapo. This is not 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:23.760 Germany in the nineteen thirties. Ice is a contemporary version, 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:28.240 but the current world is different. The chronically online doomer 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:32.040 may retort, but once ICE is done with immigrants, then 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:34.760 they will go after transpeople. After all, what's the purpose 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:38.080