WEBVTT - Mike Campbell On First Album Post Heartbreakers 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:14.520 Pushkin. When Malcolm Gladwell and Rick Rubin first talked about 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.320 making Broken Record, one of the artists they really wanted 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.920 to speak with was Tom Petty. But then right as 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.280 we started production on the show, Tom Petty sadly passed away. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.720 Everyone was processing what happened, including Malcolm and Rick. So 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.200 one afternoon they got together at Shango Law, turned the 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.960 mics on and talked about Petty and his music, about 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:35.880 how Rick first fell in love with the band, driving 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.920 around La listening to Running Down a Dream, and the 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.400 plans Petty had to put out a trove of unreleased 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.920 material from Wildflowers, an album Rick produced. That album was 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.040 one of many high water marks of Petty's career. Ricks 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.640 long thought, and he told Malcolm that day he believes 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.760 albums so good because Petty was trying to impress him. 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.880 Petty's lead guitarist and occasional co writer, Mike Campbell talked 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.400 to Rick last spring, confirming Rick's notion. They talk in 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.120 depth about the making of Wildflowers and about Mike's new 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.720 album with a band called the Dirty Knobs. It's the 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:08.760 first band Mike's ever been a part of without Petty. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.800 We started playing with in the early seventies, and it's 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:13.480 the first time Rick's been able to catch up with 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.720 Mike since Tom's death. They talk about their work together 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.760 over the years and how the Heartbreakers always managed to 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.760 find new life. Plus, Mike tells a great story about 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:30.200 how he wrote the riff for Running Down a Dream. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.960 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:41.160 I'm justin Richmonds. Just a quick note here. You can 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.520 listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:45.880 on our playlist, which you can find a link to 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.560 in the show notes. For licensing reasons, each time a 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.960 song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.960 All right, enjoy the episode. Here's Mike Campbell in conversation 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.800 with Rick Rubin. Let's let's start talking about Gainesville. If 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.160 that's cool can Gainesville was some of the happiest times 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.280 of my life. That's where I I got out of 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.760 high school in Jacksonville. I went to college in Gainesville, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.920 University of Florida on an Air Force loan society. My 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.240 dad was in the Air Force. Because we didn't have 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.160 much money. But anyway, I went to college there and 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.920 there was a real healthy music scene going on. Must 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.840 bands and a couple of parks on the university where 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.120 you could play for free. And I started making friends 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.160 with different musicians about what year about what year was 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.760 this seventy two? Well, like I got of high school, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.120 there was seventy Who how did Mudcrutch become a band? 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:51.920 Mudcrutch was a band with Tom Petty, Tom Laden and 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.560 some other guys. And they were one of the bands 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.600 that was they would do country rock, but they would 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.800 throw in some original songs now and then. And I 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.000 would see them at the park and p the free 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.440 gigs out in the lawn, and I thought, well, these 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.320 guys are you know they there's something going on here, 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.079 you know. And then I had a band with Randall 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.919 Marsh was a trio like a blues jam acid trio. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.200 And and turns out Random and I were sharing I 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:23.600 don't want to get too long with it, were sharing 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.160 a farm at the edge of town. And I saw 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.680 a thing on the university student union, Mudcrutch looking for 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.080 a new drummer, so oh, and Randall and I were 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:35.720 kind of fed up with what we were doing, so 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.560 I should give this to Randall. He might, you know, 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.040 get a gig here. And I thought, these are guys 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:42.480 were pretty good. They had harmonies, and you know, they 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.920 weren't a jam band like we were. They actually had songs. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.920 And so I told them about it, and they came 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.760 out to our farm to audition Randall and I was 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.680 in the back room, and it turns out they just 0:03:55.720 --> 0:04:00.600 lost their guitar player too that day, and so they're going, Randall, 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.360 do you know anybody brother's this guy in the back? 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.680 You know? And I was a geek. I had came 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.520 in and cut off some short hair I did. I 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.640 was not a hippie yet, you know, I was not hip. 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.880 I will do it this time nineteen twenty two, twenty 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.400 one something like that. And uh, I came walking in 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.440 with my little Japanese guitar and they just went, oh god, no. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.840 And then I said, look it was Tom two. Tom's 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.159 Tom Leading, Tom Petty and Jim Lanahan who became our 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.279 lighting director. He was the lead singer. That's another story, 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.680 and Randall and so they said, well, they were looking 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.359 at me like, oh, how did we get out of this? 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.360 So what songs do you know? How about Johnny be Good? 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.919 Everybody knows that, right, And they all like looked at 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.360 me and Tom tell us a story on the tour, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.279 he says, at the end of the song, he said like, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.359 I don't know who you are, but you're in my 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:56.480 band forever. It's a true story. And you know, he 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:58.000 was telling them on the last tour I s was 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:03.279 a little bit, so they forgot how I looked. I 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.880 fixed that in time, but I got a better guitar. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:09.880 But we just hit it off right away, and I 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.560 realized Tom was writing songs and I was starting to 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.360 write a little bit too, not as good as him, 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:19.200 but I had the inkling to write, and so we 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:20.560 hit it off, and he showed me some songs I 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.160 should have said. He goes, oh, that sounds kind of 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:23.960 like Roger mcgwinn, that you should keep working on that. 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.440 And so we just became fast friends from then on, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.080 and we just connected. And it's like it seemed like 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.200 anytime he would have an idea, I knew what to 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.200 put with it, or if I had an idea, he 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.320 knew what to put with it instinctively. It was just 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.800 one of the magical things we cross passed. Beautiful. I 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.080 do miss him. Let's go back. Let's go back, miss 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.960 him too, Let's go back even further. First memories of music. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.479 It was the first thing that got you excited about music. Well, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.560 that's easy. It was my dad. My dad was in 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:58.000 the Air Force and he would come home, put on 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.799 a record and lay on the couch and just zone 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.240 out for an hour. And it was either Elvis or 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.720 Johnny Cash, and I would look at him going like, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.240 whatever he's hearing, it's got him completely hypnotized. He's really 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.040 deep into this, and so I would listen to it 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.280 and I immediately picked up on the guitars Scotty Moore 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.440 and Luther Perkins who played with Johnny, and I just 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.120 was enamored with the sound. And then I asked him 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.279 one day, Dad, why do you listen to Johnny Cash 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:30.119 so much? And he goes because he speaks the truth, okay, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.960 words or wisdom, you know, And that was my first 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:37.640 And then of course the Beatles in that generation, they 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.800 came on TV and everything changed and I had to 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.480 have a guitar, which I couldn't afford. But that was 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.160 when I saw them, and they just blew my mind 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.000 because up until then you'd watched the Ed Sullivan Show, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.440 which is the only place to see new music, and 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.200 be like some guy up there singing and a band 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.680 somewhere out You didn't even see them. It's just a singer. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.000 And the Beatles came on. First of all, they were 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.279 almost my age, and there was no band behind the curtain. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.800 The guys playing the bass and singing the drums are 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.640 right there. They're all the four little combo and they're 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.920 all doing it with no help from anybody, and they're 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:18.320 really fucking good. And the girls are going nuts. That's 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.800 what I want to do. So you got a guitar 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.040 after seeing the Beatles? Yeah, I got. I got a 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.200 paunch up guitar. My mom got me a fifteen dollar 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.120 guitar that I couldn't It was unplayable, but I didn't know. 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:32.960 I thought that, boy, these guys are good. This is 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.080 so hard. How do they do it? Because the strings 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.800 or high I would bleed, you know, I loved it 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.280 so much. I would just play until I bleeded. And 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.120 so I just got the bug. And it's like once 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.440 I found the guitar, nothing else mattered. I'm going to 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.480 play this guitar as much as I can. I gotta 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.000 go to school, but when I get back, I'm on 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.000 the guitar and I just loved it. I still do 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.840 so then you're in mud Crutch and what kind of 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:02.400 gigs did you do? What was it like being in 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.480 that band? Well, it was it was a lot of 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.600 fun and we barely made enough money to make a living, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.600 which was really cool because I was living in this 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.400 my friend's garage for fifteen bucks a month. He let 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:20.040 me live there, and with Mudcrutch we would play women's 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.880 club dances. Sometimes the university would give us a couple 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.480 of hundred bucks to play fraternitys occasionally, not too much 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.680 because we didn't play covers. Our biggest gig where we 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.800 really got good was a dub steer room on the 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.120 edge of town, a topless bar. That was my first gig. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.400 I'm glad you're minding this is the best story of all. 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:42.920 And it was great because it was four sets a night, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.960 all week long. Okay, so we had to throw in 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:48.920 a few covers because we only had, you know, so 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.520 many originals. But and we would say, oh, here's one 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.600 by Santana and then we'd do our own, you know, 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.280 and they were so drunk they didn't care. But the 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.480 funny thing is the topless bar and then like the 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:04.280 third song, they had two dance stands on either side 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.440 of the stage, and these two girls would jump up 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.120 and they'd have their you know, and almost half thirst 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.240 of the song, they pulled their tops off, and the 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.120 first time they did it, the band quick playing like 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.679 we've ever seen that before. Oh okay, and you know, 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.520 we learned real fast. But and then on Thursdays they'd 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.920 have wet T shirt contest and wet T shirt contests. 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.720 This is Gainesville, okay, it's a lot of deep redneck 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.280 culture and so Doves Steakhouse topless bar. You're going to 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.360 get some of the seedious residents are going to come 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.280 to that bar. And you know, they were great. They 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.200 were so drunk. They were great audiences usually, but on 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.160 wet T shirt contests night, they'd have the girls get 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.680 up and they'd drench them in they'd have the T 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:51.560 shirt son, they drench them in water so you could 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.360 see everything, and they'd get up and dance, and all 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.120 the guys would come down front, like all the drooling drunks. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.960 But we got good because we played like two months 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.440 every night and I got like one hundred bucks a week, well, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.040 you know, for playing you know, every many hours. But 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:08.280 that was a lot of money. And we had a 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.560 house just up the street that we shared and we 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.920 could pay our rent and buy some wine or you know, burghers, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.280 and we could live, you know, as musicians. So the 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.800 first time I was a working musician and I really 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.320 liked it, you know, making my money with my instrument. 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.120 So you played a lot of hours every day in 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.720 front of people. Yeah, so we got tight. We learned 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.040 how to how to work the room. And you know, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.200 it's like, we're not the Beatles, but I read about 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.200 the Beatles going to Hamburg and when you play four 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.360 hours every night after a month, get good one, two, three, four. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.319 We got this, you know what I mean. It just 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.200 you get good confidence, yeah, and the communication between the 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.320 members and just muscle memory. Everything. You just get good 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.439 and where you work it. And so we got really good, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.120 and then we started getting some better gigs at the 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.439 university here and there. But eventually you reached the point 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.480 where this is as far as we can go in 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.720 this town. You know, we're at the top of the 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.079 game here. But that's it. I'm gonna have to make 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.120 a record, I guess. You know, if you want to 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:07.839 move up, we get to move on up to a 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.760 bigger city, you know, and get more serious about it, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:15.240 and that's what we did. So what was the next step, Well, 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.959 we pulled all our money. We made a demo at 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.280 ben Mont's house when his parents were home. Ben Mountain 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.440 was the rich kid he had his parents had a 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.720 nice house. So we pulled in a truck and recorded 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.000 a demo live to when did ben Mont get in? 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.400 Because we're still we're still in mud Crutch, mud crug right, 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.560 it was. Tom Ladden left the band after about three years. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.720 We had a disagreement over at dubs. He told dubs 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.160 that we wanted more money, which we didn't, and he 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.240 fired us and so we fired him. We all made 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.960 up after that. But then we had seen ben Mont around. 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.079 He was just a great musician, and so let's get 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:53.960 a piano in the band. So he joined the band 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:59.120 about two years into it, and you were still called Mudcrutch. Yeah, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.080 we were still it was. The name stayed the same. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.160 But we cut a live demo of three songs on 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:11.280 live onto tape, and we pulled all our money and 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.600 three of the guys went out to La to shop 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.160 the tape. We got a couple of feelers, one with 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.000 Shelter Records, who had a studio in Tulsa, and they said, well, 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.920 why don't you if you're coming out to La, which 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:24.240 we were planning just going to go out there and 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.000 take our chances, stopping Tulsa on the way out and 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.000 see if we can. We'll make a demo there, and 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.920 we did, and we liked Anny Cordell a lot. He's 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:34.440 kind of like you. He was just kind of like 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.920 he seemed to have an overview of you know, can 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.040 you guys do that? That's not so cool, but when 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.320 you keep doing that, that's that's the ship, you know, 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.360 that kind of thing. And I really love that guy. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.280 And so he kind of got it, you know, and 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.680 he got town, he got the songwriting, and he got 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.240 the band, and he signed us. I remember him coming 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.440 to visit us when we were making Wildflowers. He came 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.520 to the mixed session. Yeah, and I remember Tom was 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.000 really excited that he was coming. He had a vibe. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.920 He was very wise man, and I remember that. And 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.480 I remember we played him, we were playing him and 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.760 we got and he always liked me too. He always 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.240 thought that, you know, you know, you're really insecure, but 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.480 you're important to this. He always gave me confidence. And 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.240 we were listening to that those tracks and erect Me 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.200 came on. He looked at me and he goes, that's 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:30.520 the one I've been waiting for. God bless him. Amazing. Wow, 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.840 you're getting misty thinking about all these memories. Okay, it's good. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.280 So you get signed to Shelter. Yeah, and then what happens. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.640 You know, it's funny you had mentioned that, because I 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.680 just found a journal from those days that I was 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.319 keeping of our first days at Shelter Records, and I 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:56.560 would write, like, went in the studio today, cut this song, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.920 whatever we take. It's the next single or the first thing. 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.360 Next page, it's not the first single. It's really not 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.199 that good. Next page. Went in the studio for four hours, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.720 didn't get a track. We suck next day, drinking too much. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.040 It was like Greenhorns trying to figure out how to 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.880 make a record. We didn't know anything about playing in 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.720 the studio, and we struggled a lot at the beginning, 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.840 but Cordell stuck with us because he liked the songs. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.120 And then at one point in the journal it goes, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.200 we went to the studio with the heart with the band, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.720 you know, stand and Ron and Ben and Mike and Tom, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.400 and then the next day or next week, Tom brought 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:42.640 in four songs American Girl Breakdown. It's like it's like 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.080 night and day. All of a sudden, it just happened. 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.480 The bloodgates opened. As soon as the songs came in. 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.600 We were there. Wow, you know, and on Tom of 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.400 a sudden it started to sound good, amazing, And that 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.200 kind of blew my mind when I read that, like 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.880 it was just a moment in time where that switch turned. 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.920 I guess he in his mind he thought this, I 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.560 gotta step up now, and like, you know, all the 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.080 songs good songs. Remember, there was anything else going on 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.680 in his life that would have sparked that. I don't know. 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.720 I think it was just a good question. Who knows. No, 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:21.760 there's nothing players that, anything, any life changing event at 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.320 that moment other than that the band that what became 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.680 the Heartbreakers was in one room and maybe that was 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.720 just that energy was enough to turn his switch on. Yeah, 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.360 it is interesting how that happens, how you see. And 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.440 I wouldn't even remember that if I hadn't seen the journal. 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.960 But it was almost like night and day, struggling, struggling, struggling, boom, 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.840 here's the songs, here's the band ready to go. And 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.160 how how did it work out that you guys got 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.040 popular in the UK? First, well, we put the record 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:56.280 out and break Down an American Girl, got a little 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.720 bit of play in Boston and San Francisco, but it 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.720 was happening really And then we got offered a tour 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.600 opening for Nils Lofgren who had just had a hit 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.880 over there, and we went over to England, which was 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.360 so what a dream. We're going to England to play 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.440 we have a record out. You know, we didn't realize 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.240 that record is not really happening right now. We're got 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.440 we got gigs were happening, you know, in our little mind, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.880 we were already there, you know, but we had no 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.320 idea what was about to happen. And we got over 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.800 there and we started touring around England with Nils and 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.320 we were really good live. And I remember the first 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.760 gig we played in England was in Wales and we 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.240 were opening for Nils and we had no respect for 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.760 the opening act, you know, like we're gonna we're taking 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.000 no prisoners, you know, we're gonna take this moment what 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.240 hell or high water? Kind of assholes about it, really, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.320 but that's the way it was Tom and I went 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.840 out there and the first gig in England were like 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.840 and Tom's running around, I'm running around and we're doing 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.640 our thing and the crowd's going crazy and we got 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.560 wrapped up in our chords. It was a total spinal 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.680 tap because we lost and we're standing there like literally 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.960 wrapped tied tight. The roadies had to come out. But 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.520 it was great, you know, that's just how exciting it was. 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.840 And then from that we started getting good press. They 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:24.800 would come to see Nels laffer and go, oh fuck, 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.800 what was this ship that happened right before that? You know, 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.080 the kind of kicked his ass, got what We almost 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.240 felt bad for him because we were really going for 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.560 it and it was our time and it wasn't his time. 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.440 So we kept getting really good press, so ended that tour. 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.160 They booked our own little tour while we were there, 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.200 got great press, and the record started to pick up, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.320 and somehow that's we came back to the States and 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.639 it spilled over. So it seems like it the the 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.520 live drove the record instead of the other way around. Yeah, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.600 at that time it did until the record caught on, Yeah, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.840 and then it just and then what was the first 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.960 song that really caught on it was either Breakdown or 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.960 an American Girl. I think it was Breakdown. His Breakdown 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.159 got the most airplay, but then American Girl came on. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.720 So if we were to go through and tell me 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.120 if you need to see the covers to be able 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.560 to remember, but how would you say if we talk 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:25.320 about each album in order, your memories of what made 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.639 each of those what it was? Do you know what 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.600 I'm saying in the making of it? M would you 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.040 remember it? So? For from the first record and it's 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.840 the first So yeah, the first record was us finding 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.919 what we were. Yeah, And I think American Girl was 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.359 the song I remember when we didn't we cut that song, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.879 the arrangement on the harmonics on the guitar, the groove, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.679 the character, the singing, the sound of the record. I 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.160 remember when we did that, even at my young ages, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.200 that nobody else can do that quite like we do this. 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.960 This is our thing, chiming guitar thing that we still do. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.360 And so that record was just a group of songs 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.960 that I love still probably might be my favorite record 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:18.199 of all. And it was us just like getting getting it, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.960 figuring it out and kind of like, wow, you got 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.000 that this is good. You know. Second record was following 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:28.520 that up some good songs, maybe not quite as as 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.160 deep in the songs, but getting a little more involved 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:37.840 in the studio, you know, production and layering and stuff. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:40.600 Then we kind of reached a level where we were 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.920 kind of in a cult, I guess, and looking back 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.480 on it, we weren't huge mainstream yet, but we had 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.520 we could get gigs and we could maintain. And the 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:54.920 third album, Jimmy Iveen shows up and you know, it's like, okay, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:56.880 we're on a mission. Listen, we want to we want 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.360 to really like grab it now, see if we can 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.360 really get you know, hit a home run instead of doubles, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.200 you know. And so the third record, we worked really 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.720 hard on the sounds, like to where it wasn't fun 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.639 a lot of it. At times it was, but it 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.640 was really like a lot of pressure on ourselves and 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.760 nitpicky about you know, four days on a snare sound 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.920 and stuff like that. And yeah, there was the only 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.280 record I actually walked out on one session. We were 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.680 doing Refugee for the seventh day it's time, and and 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.119 I just couldn't figure out why I didn't why it 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.160 wasn't working, and I just and we've been trying. Okay, 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.159 let's let do this. Let move the guitar amp over there, 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.480 let's try a different snare, let's try dadda da da da. Okay, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.520 it doesn't sound right, and I just fuck this. I'm 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:44.040 out of here. I can't take this anymore. And I 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.439 when we left town, we went up to Santa Barbara 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.560 and I got a little house on the little shack 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.200 on the beach and just sat there for like, what 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.000 the fuck is happening? Why can't we make this song? 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:55.879 And of course it became one of our biggest songs 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:57.719 that came back with My Hair Clears, the only time 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.760 that the pressure got to me where I just gotatgue 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.119 out of this room because it got intense and we 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.240 were really hard on ourselves, and Ilevine was pushing for 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:10.199 greatness too, and we were fighting that thing as you 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.640 know in the studio where you know how the song 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.520 goes and you know how it sounds when you're standing 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.960 there playing together, and then you go into the control 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.240 room and it's a completely different sound, just doesn't sound 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.960 like anything like it did out there. How did we 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.200 get that in here? And it's not easy, No, it's 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.000 not easy, and that was driving us nuts, but we 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.080 did get it. It's a great sounding record, that's a 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.640 unique sounding record looking back on it, anyone, I don't 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.119 have that answers your question. Yeah, so we're up to 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.119 but now we're up to the third album and that 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.160 was one that we got. That's the first time where 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.320 it got unpleasant to be in the studio and it 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.679 was our biggest hit. Yeah, there you go, figure And 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.760 it took the longest to make at that point and 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.199 cost the most and cost the most. And then what 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.800 was after that, long after dark, was to follow up 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.919 to that, and we did a record plant again with 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:07.800 Ivene and by that point we were feeling a little 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.800 full of ourselves because we'd had a big hit. You know, 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.560 I think Torpedoes got to number two because we hit 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.679 the wall, the Pink Floyd Wall. We couldn't craft rold one, 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.440 but it did really well and a couple of videos, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.439 and so we felt, you know, we're we've now how 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.320 do we stay here? And it just continue on? I mean, 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.320 make another record as good as that one, And you know, 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.399 that's a that's an interesting thing with a musical career. 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:34.680 If you make a great record and every record after 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.480 that is going to be measured to that one. Yeah, 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.119 and we were figuring that out, you know, like and 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:42.680 you know when you when you have a little success, 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.240 you buy some time to experiment, like I said, try 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:49.199 an orchestra, or try different players or different production ideas. 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:50.560 So we were doing some of that on the way 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.320 after dark and it had some hits on it. I 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.600 think you got Lucky and Woman in Love or No, 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.760 Woman's missed one Hard Promises. You're right, I should have 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.040 the album covers. Well, my heart promisesn't long after dark. 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.560 We're following, you know, continuation of torpedoes with Ivan, just 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.280 trying to you know, write great songs and make them 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:13.320 sound good and hope. Did it feel like it was 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:18.800 getting easier or harder? Would you say easier? Easier to record? 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.359 Easier to record because we learned yea, we learned for 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:24.640 my trial and Errorble, don't do that again. Don't set 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:26.359 the drums up where were there because I ain't gonna 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.359 sound good, you know, don't use that bass that didn't 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:31.560 sound good. Use this, We don't use that. Aunt. We 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:33.240 could save a lot of time, get straight to the 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:35.760 stuff we know that works, and spend more time in 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.280 the music and less on the sounds and that. So 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.840 in that sense it got easier. But you know, writing 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.879 great songs is always hard. I mean and yes and no. 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:48.879 You know, it's easy to write a song, but then 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.280 you got to measure it up against well, this is 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.760 pretty good, but is it damned the torpedo? Is it refugee? 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:59.080 Or here comes to my girl? Almost? Yeah, we'll get 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.040 back to work. It's hard to know. It's like, well, 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.600 you don't too close, You don't know, nobody knows. You 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.280 don't know until somebody says no, yeah, I don't think 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.720 so it doesn't sound good to me, But you don't 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:11.520 know because you're so close to it. And then you 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:13.480 get to a point where you realize you can't really 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:16.199 worry about it. Just do what, do the work, and 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:18.320 don't try to measure it up. Absolutely, it seems like 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.439 can you free yourself from it? You hear yourself, they 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.880 can come, The great songs can come much easier. That's 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.159 the trap, yeah, or the or the release if as 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:31.080 soon as you stopped thinking about what's wrong, there's nothing wrong. Yeah, 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.720 but um, but songs are mysterious, you know, as a 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:38.600 whole other conversation where they come from and why they 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:43.439 come when they come. But we just kept slugging along, 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:46.159 you know. After after Torpedoes, we bought some success and 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.720 had had more. Our lifestyles went up and we played 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:53.919 bigger gigs. We started playing arenas and it just felt 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.159 like living a dream. Or it sounds so corny, but 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.040 we were living the dream and we never thought we 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:02.280 really would or not. And then we're just looking at Wow, 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:06.480 just working out for us. How blessed are we? How 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.080 did this happen? Yeah? I could be back in games. 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:10.960 We're playing at the Woman's Club and here I am. 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:14.400 It mattered square garden. How did I get here? That's 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:16.040 the thing you're look at. How did I get here? 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:21.040 That pops up a lot. Yeah, anyway, you know, yeah, 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:26.560 it doesn't seem possible. Well, there's hope. There's hope and dreams. 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:30.359 We'll be back with more from Mike and Rick. After 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:37.320 the break. We're back with more of Rick's conversation with 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.200 Mike Campbell. So then after the so you did three 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:45.560 with Ivan, They got more comfortable as they went because 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:47.960 you learned from the first experience, which was the hardest, 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.040 but it also got stale. The relationship got stale. Because 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:54.680 we were tupamanger and then what was next jeff Lynn? 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.520 Jeff Lynn shows up and there's a whole new wave 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:04.640 of amazing creativity just happened. Saw all these songs came in, 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:07.800 and I think it makes I'm talking about it sounds 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:11.040 like when all the elements sort of fall into place, 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.240 the creative light comes on, you know what I mean 0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:16.680 it did for us anyway, Like we got maybe a 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:19.800 little stale after those three albums, and then we had 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:22.480 Full Moone Fever, which was just like a burst of 0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:29.840 great songs, absolutely new production, excitement, interest, discovery. It was 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.359 a whole new thing. It all just came together. But 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.720 without the songs, it wouldn't happen. But the songs I 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.960 think were triggered by all the energy, new fresh energy, 0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:41.000 you know. And then when we worked with View too, 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:45.040 it was fresh energy, you a new perspective, new challenges. 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:48.000 Let's talk about running Down a Dream because that just 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:49.840 from I don't think I ever told you this, but 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:53.080 that's the song that really got me into the band. 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:56.280 I wrote that one, yeah, I know, and that's the 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:58.560 one that really got me and like that's the one 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:01.880 that made me a fan. So how did it come 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:05.360 about what was? If you want the true story? Yes, 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:08.919 why not? Um, it's interesting. You would never think this. 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.560 But I mean, I'm write, I'm writing all I'm writing 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.720 right now, I'm always writing. Okay. But I heard about 0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:19.600 this band, Jane's Addiction, and they were playing at Devonshire, 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:25.240 some community center or something. I said, let's go see 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.919 this band. And I didn't like him that much, but 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:33.200 there was something about the rhythm or something that's interesting. 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:38.040 So I went back home and uh, I think that 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:41.800 night and I picked the guitar and running down a 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:50.000 Dream was originally I was thinking at halftime, which is 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:54.560 a groove that I heard them playing. Wow, it would 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:58.000 have been great halftime. Also, hear you sing it well. 0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:04.160 So I did a demo that version, not thinking much 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:07.600 about it, gave it to Tom. He played it for Jeff, 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:12.600 but they just hooked up and Wurst sharing ideas. He 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.359 said they might get this demo and Jeff goes, it 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:23.879 should be double time and it became that. So, you know, 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:28.200 as songs are so mysterious, where do they come from? 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:30.119 If I hadn't gone to that gig, if I hadn't 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:32.720 done it halftime, if Jeff hadn't heard it double time. 0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:37.159 Who knows it's it's it's magic. It just I mean, 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:40.000 it's beyond me. Really, it just happens in spite of me. Yeah. 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:43.080 It's so interesting though, to seek to see those connections 0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:46.080 and to look and then then you hear it in 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:49.600 that finished version. Haven't known nothing about that. Something connects 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:54.560 with you. It's a great driving songs. I used to 0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:57.040 drive around Los Angeles. I just moved to Los Angeles. 0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.120 I used to drive around and I listened to that 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:02.240 album over and over and over again. I don't know 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:05.080 a million times forever not to speed up and that 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:08.720 I've had that experience, you like, oh yeah, I would 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:13.440 go another penny for us. I remember I called i'l Teller, 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:15.720 who was the person who was running the label that 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:17.560 you were on at the time, who I had known 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:23.720 from He was the chairman of Columbia Record, president of 0:29:23.800 --> 0:29:25.920 Columbia Records when we had def Jam there, so I 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:29.360 knew him, and now he was at MCA and I 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:31.680 called him up and I said, hey, I just want 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:34.479 to let you know, if there's ever an opportunity for 0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:37.280 me to work with these guys, I would love to 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:40.320 do that. And he said, well, that's not gonna He's like, 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:43.080 thank you very much, that's not going to happen. I saw. 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:45.160 It was an amazing conversations, like they worked with jeff 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:48.200 Lynn and thanks for the call, but no interest. It's like, okay, 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:53.600 thank you, so shot down and then oh yeah, just 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:55.880 coming back to me. Yeah. And then a couple of 0:29:55.960 --> 0:30:00.080 years later, I was having lunch with mom Austin and 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:02.200 he said, can I tell you a secret? And I 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.920 said sure. He's like, well it's a secret. But we 0:30:05.000 --> 0:30:09.400 signed Tom Petty. It's like, how did that happen? It's like, well, 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:11.520 they have one record left, so no one's allowed to know. 0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:14.040 But he wanted to be with us and we made 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.680 the deal and I said, well, if there's ever an 0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:18.320 opportunity to work with him, It's like, well, yeah, I 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:20.400 think you should meet with him, and he set it up. 0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.560 Then it was like it was amazing how it came 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:27.440 around quickly. You know how I remember it, and tell 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:30.440 me if I'm wrong. I remember. I think I was 0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:36.080 on tour in Europe or someplace and somebody called me 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:43.800 and said Rick Rubin wants to talk to you, or 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:45.880 or somebody told me that you that you had liked 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:50.520 the record, or something, and I remember saying to Tom, 0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:53.600 we should get this guy Rick Rubin in. He might 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.240 be a good producer. Maybe you don't know this or no, no, 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:57.760 I don't know that. I had a little bit to 0:30:57.800 --> 0:31:00.160 do it at the beginning. And I don't know. I'm 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:02.520 trying to remember why I knew you. Where I knew 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:04.360 you from, probably the Chili Peppers because I was like, 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:06.640 liked the sound of one of the chilien earlier. And 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:10.120 I think, and we're we're gonna move away from you know, 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.240 we've done Jeff two albums. You should do something, get 0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:14.880 more back to Live Man, because Jeff isn't Live Man. 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:18.800 And I said, well, you know, and I think you 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:23.479 had contacted me. I had gotten some some for some reason, 0:31:24.000 --> 0:31:26.280 I had the empathist to say to Tom, there's this 0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:29.040 guy that I think would be good. Wow, and he's 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.720 interested and he said okay, and then we came in. 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:34.239 That's how I remember. I could have it wrong. It's 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:36.480 amazing it could be again. I have no idea how 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:42.680 so you owe me. All I know was MO, the 0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:45.160 Mo connection. Mo connection. That was what I remember the 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:48.320 most interesting. Well, it all happened, yeah, and it was 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:53.120 another phase creativity. Talk talk more about Jeff's the Jeff phase, 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:56.800 because I love the I love those records, um and 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:59.360 as you say, it was very different than anything you 0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:02.760 had done before, so talk about how those were made. 0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:08.160 It was such a wonderful experience working with Jeff and 0:32:08.240 --> 0:32:13.800 so eye opening and educational. Tom and I had always 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:20.440 made records, mostly occasionally with a demo, but mostly band 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:23.480 playing live at the same time, and Jeff never does that. 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:29.240 So they had bumped into each other and had this 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:33.760 song free Fallen, and they wanted to record a demo. 0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:36.720 So they came over to my little house which I 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:40.280 had a little soundcraft studio in a back bedroom, and 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:45.080 I did have a twenty four track machine, and they've 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:49.040 got this song free Fallen, and Jeff proceeded to lead 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:54.880 the recording. And my job just dropped watching this guy. 0:32:54.960 --> 0:32:56.920 And I mean, I could go on about it. I I 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:58.680 don't know how much deeply you want to get into it. 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:00.560 I'm not going to give away any of your secrets, 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:03.600 although I could, because people learn the secrets, they still 0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:07.120 can't do it. Yes, he just does it. But one 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:09.480 thing that blew my mind was we had this song 0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:13.040 and a free falls a very simple song there's three 0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:17.880 chords and he made it. He crafted it into this 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:21.120 three minute piece. He can't think. We came over at 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:27.320 twelve noon and by six o'clock the thing was done. Background, vocals, 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:34.440 guitar parts, everything, percussion done finished. What else you got? Wow? 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.719 And I'd never seen it done that fast before. And 0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:40.600 it's because he knew how to get what he wanted 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:44.320 really fast. What was the order of events that? Okay, 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:47.720 here's how you here's the Jeff Lynn, sorry, Jeff, the 0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:51.840 formula which no one can touch you, so I can 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:55.280 say this. We would go in. The song was written 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:59.840 an acoustic guitar. We'd we'd learn it. Okay, let's go. 0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:05.920 We'd get a One secret to that formula is we 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:08.520 used a drum machine because we didn't have a drummer. 0:34:08.560 --> 0:34:10.919 It was just the three of us. But the drum 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:19.879 machine was dead simple, just boom boom, the silest bump bump, bump, bump, bup, bump, 0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:24.919 nothing it boom boom, so at least plenty of room 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:28.799 for other rhythms, other basses. You can change it later, 0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:32.239 but to start with just basically a metronome, but with 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:34.960 a drum machine with good sounds. So we go out 0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:39.040 and play this song down on acoustic guitar. Okay, let's 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:42.560 double that two or three at a time. Let's do 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.640 that again. So now you've got six acoustic guitars going shaging. 0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:50.600 Sounds really rich. Okay. Then we'd go, okay, let's let's 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:52.880 put a guide vocal on it, which most usually became 0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:55.440 the real vocal, so we know where the verses and 0:34:55.520 --> 0:35:00.560 choruses are. And then most likely Jeff had to sound 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:04.319 on a OBX sysus. It's just a pad sound like 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.640 a harmonium sound, and he would put that in following 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:09.680 the chords of the acoustic guitar, which would just be 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:14.160 underneath it, which kind of glued it all together. And 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:18.680 then the background vocals. Because it's on a drum machine, 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.320 the tempo does not change from one course to the next, 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:26.640 so basically we work on the one chorus, pop that 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:30.239 into all the courses. Done the one chorus. Okay, we're 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:34.040 on a twenty four track analog machine. I don't know 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:35.839 how technically you want to get stomped me or cut 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:39.840 it out later, but I've told you this before. Maybe 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:42.640 you probably like this because you're a producer. So we 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:44.919 had a twenty four track machine. Okay, we already put 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:49.400 like six tracks of double acoustic guitars. Got maybe you 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:54.040 used up eight tracks. Okay, Okay, the vocals, we're gonna 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:56.920 need like twenty tracks for the vocals, So we make 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.400 a slave. We'd maybe do a rough mixed onto the 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:04.400 two inch or the quarter inch. Get a fresh piece 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:07.960 of twenty four track tape, take that stereo mix, put 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:10.919 it onto two tracks. There you got twenty two tracks. Open. 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:16.600 Let me go to the chorus. Okay, I'm free. Okay, 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:21.160 let's sing that together. I'm free. Let's do it six times. 0:36:21.280 --> 0:36:25.440 So there's twelve voices going I'm free, I'm free. Okay, 0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:28.799 let's do twelve of those. You build the thing, and 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:31.279 Jeff just knew which notes to do and how to move, 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:33.760 you know. But it was usually him and Tom singing 0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:36.279 together on the backgrounds to make a sound. But you 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:39.000 ended with this glob of the chorus comes on. It's like, 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:43.680 you know, this big sound. Then the tricky part was, okay, 0:36:43.719 --> 0:36:46.360 now you take the twenty four track and you mute 0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:51.440 the guitars. It's all vocals, you blend them together, you 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:55.839 copy them over to the quarter inch. Okay, so now 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:59.400 all those twenty tracks or whatever are in stereo on 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:02.799 two tracks. You put the master twenty four track back 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:08.040 up and then you sit there and you count one, two, three, four, 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:12.840 play until you get it and sync on each chorus. 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.000 So now you're back on your Master. You've only used 0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:19.719 up two tracks and you've got these huge twenty track 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:22.960 choruses coming in. Amazing, And you could do that with 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:26.000 a guitar lick. You can do that with anything, and 0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:28.239 it's kind of fun, you know, like, oh we missed it, 0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:30.920 do it again, one, two, three, okay, one more time. 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:34.640 You know, very analog organic, but when you get it, okay, 0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:37.440 there it is. You know, nowadays you just push your 0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:39.279 button and pro tools to do that for you in 0:37:39.280 --> 0:37:41.520 two seconds. But it was kind of fun doing it. 0:37:41.520 --> 0:37:43.360 You have to get down on your knees and you know, 0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:46.279 and market and stuff mark the tape so you know 0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:49.680 where to start from. Yeah. Amazing, Yeah, really good anything. 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:52.200 But then so the record was, you know, Niver spent 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.120 more than two days. Would you put the drums on last? Yeah, 0:37:55.160 --> 0:37:58.520 so we've got a drum machine and we would keep 0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:00.440 the kick drum because we had this really good Lyn 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:06.239 drum kick drum and he hatched just as a behind it, 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:09.799 and we'd overdubbed the sneer drum by itself. And the 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.320 advantage to that if you listen to Jess Rickers the 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:15.920 drum sub but really unique. Each drum is open because 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:18.560 they're not all fighting for the sonic space at the 0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:20.600 same time. So you're just doing the snare rum. You 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:23.879 put all the mics up, hit the sneers, beautiful sneer 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:27.560 stand without symbols or anything else. And we had this 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:32.000 guy Phil Jones, a drummer percussionist who would come in. 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:33.759 He'd sit there and put a tale on his leg 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:40.200 and live performance of the snare drum. If he got off, 0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:43.120 we'd stop. Pick it up. But it's not like a 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.680 sample triggering. He's actually playing it, and that there's a 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:48.840 drum fill coming up, we'd stop. Okay, we need a 0:38:48.880 --> 0:38:51.919 drum fill. Okay, got that. Go back to the song 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.600 and the Tom Tom. We need Tom Tom, Phil, Okay, 0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:59.560 let's go once again. Tom's by themselves, symbols by themselves. 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:02.800 They were orchestrated. And that's why those records did he 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:06.799 make sounds so beautiful because nothing's getting in the way 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:11.839 sonically of anything else. But you know, that's that's the 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:18.080 the basic formula. But when when did um Where in 0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:21.719 that story is when did don't come around here? No 0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:23.759 more happened? Because that was also made in a more 0:39:23.800 --> 0:39:29.719 mechanical way as that's the previous album that was Dave Stewart. 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:32.520 Did you do a whole album with Dave? No just 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:35.239 that song or two, two or three sons that was 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:38.560 done with the drum machine. That was during Hard Promises, 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:40.680 which is an album that got bogged down. We got 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:42.480 bogged down what we were trying to do, and he 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:48.160 came along, had this demo which Tom liked, and we 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:54.080 It started with a a drum machine loop of some 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:56.839 sort and Dave did his thing and at the end 0:39:56.920 --> 0:39:58.560 we had the whole band come on and do the 0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:00.680 the ending and play it out, you know. So it 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.239 sounded like a band. It's kind of a mix of 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:08.400 both worlds cool And that was supposed to be Stevie 0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:13.400 Nicks's song. Was it? Ivene was hooked up with Dave 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:17.200 and working with Stevie and so he heard that song. 0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:19.600 He said, oh, and the rhythmics aren't doing this? Can 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.440 I have it for Stevie? And she hated it? So 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:26.799 Jimmy said, oh, well, how about Tom, So it came 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:31.400 down the line to us. There you go. We'll be 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:34.400 right back with more from Mike Campbell. After a quick break, 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:40.600 we're back with the rest of Mike and Rick's conversation 0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:43.040 and his new song Southern Boy from his band the 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:47.280 Dirty Knobbs album Reckless Abandoned. What are your first memories 0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:50.560 of our working together, because that's what came next in 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:54.479 the in the story. First thing it pops into mind 0:40:54.600 --> 0:41:01.239 is you wreck me Chris. We were as auditioning drummers 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:03.080 at the time. I don't know if you were part 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:05.719 of the drummer you were, I remember, and I just 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:10.839 remember you showed up and you were really good with 0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:15.320 helping us pick the songs and talking about what type 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:17.719 of songs you might want to try to write, and 0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:21.280 getting the grooves right, like you don't know how it feels. 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:23.760 I remember that was a discussion about some Steve Milber 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:26.160 song and you could take a groove like that and 0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:28.520 make a song at it in our own way, as 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.080 a lot of ideas come from other things and you 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:34.160 make it your own. But that's what I remember most 0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:38.200 is being really deep into the song choices and the 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:42.120 grooves and the sounds. We didn't seem to struggle it 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:44.560 with sounds too much. It didn't feel like it was 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.040 hard to get that band to sound good. It felt 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:50.480 like it just naturally sounded so good. I don't remember 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:53.239 struggling it all, not like Torpedoes now. The sounds were 0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:55.920 always pretty good, and we just worked on the music, 0:41:56.040 --> 0:42:00.319 you know, and just you know, dropping bad songs are 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.719 bringing in better ones. Yeah. I remember the only song 0:42:03.760 --> 0:42:06.960 that was written when I came the first time, um 0:42:07.800 --> 0:42:10.320 was Good to be King was the song that Tom 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:14.879 already had and good And I remember coming to your 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:19.239 house and we listened to it, and I think there 0:42:19.320 --> 0:42:21.279 was there may have been a I think there was 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:23.960 a demo for it, kind of demo in my house. Yeah, 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:26.960 funky sounding demo, but we had an idea of it, Yeah, 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:29.640 I remember that. But I remember that was all there was, 0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:31.919 and then we just sort of talked about what could 0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:35.040 be the rest of them, what else the rest of 0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:38.319 it could look like, you know, as we're talking about 0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:40.120 just and look back over the project, I see a 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:45.719 theme appearing. And the theme seems to be when the 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:49.360 elements all come together, you got the right people in 0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:55.560 the right space and time the songs materialized. Yeah, I can. 0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:58.399 I can tell you one thing that I oh wait, 0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:01.240 I don't I've never I don't remember ever voicing this before, 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:06.800 but I remember feeling over time that with Tom, I 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:10.759 felt like on the first album, on Wildflowers, our first 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:14.600 album together, he really wanted to impress me. He worked 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.680 hard to impress me, and once he felt like he 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:20.400 had done that on that album, I never felt like 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.520 he tried his hard again on any of the other 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:25.400 things we did. I think he was did you know, 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:28.640 did great? But it was a nature of prison. It 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:32.000 was a different like I want to win over this 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:35.920 new person. Yeah, And I think it sounds like that 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:38.799 kept happening with the different people over the years. Well 0:43:38.800 --> 0:43:42.600 that's a reoccurring thing too. I mean, somebody said a 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:45.200 producer shouldn't work with a band for more than two 0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:49.279 records because the first thing, you're trying to impress each 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:52.160 other and pull the best out, and then it's like, Okay, 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:54.200 now we're gonna do it again. There's the same thing again. 0:43:54.920 --> 0:43:57.040 You already know you're impressed with me. I already know 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:58.759 you know what you can about your capable of and 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:01.360 there's no mystery about it. I think a mystery and 0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:04.280 the danger is what brings out the really great stuff. 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:07.960 But yeah, you could say that about all the jeff 0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:10.799 too and read your point where well, you know, it's 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:13.960 almost like as an artist and I can't speak for Tom, 0:44:14.000 --> 0:44:17.000 but I can speak for myself and maybe partially for 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:20.839 him because I know him really well. You have a producer, 0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:23.520 you're The producer is to bring out the best in 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:28.280 you and to keep you from getting up you're lost 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:30.080 up your own ass, which is easy to do when 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:33.200 you're producing yourself. Okay, So when you first get with 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:38.839 the producer, you want to make that connection where he 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.120 pushes you and you can prove to him what you 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:46.520 can do. You know, and you're interested in everything he 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.600 says because it's new and oh that's really smart. I 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:53.640 hadn't thought of that. After a couple of hourtitude, if 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:55.880 I played this song, I already know what you're going 0:44:55.960 --> 0:45:00.520 to think of it, because I know you now and 0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:02.640 you can still do good work. But if you don't, 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:07.839 you only get one shot at that initial thing. Interesting. Yeah, 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:09.800 it is interesting. It's like I said, it's hard to 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:12.759 talk about music sometimes because it's birds fail you. But 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:17.360 it's very mystical and where songs come from and where 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:22.040 you know, great records just happen. It's kind of just 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:27.000 a blessing and a mystery, you know, and luck. So 0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:30.640 then after that, what was the next period? I was 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:32.960 going to say, It's like I think with Tom and you, 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:36.040 I think it got to a point too where at 0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:40.440 the beginning you pushed him like that birst can be 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:44.040 better or that song can be better, and he listened 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:47.280 to you. And I think we should point too where 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:51.759 when you're really like confident in yourself, like I don't 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.200 want anybody telling me what to do. I want to 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:56.800 do it my way, and I don't really want that 0:45:56.880 --> 0:45:59.319 opinion right now at this point, I don't want to 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:01.399 be bothered with your point of view. I don't want 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:03.920 you analyzing or critiquing what I want to do. I 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:07.080 just want to go do it. Yeah, And which is fine. 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:10.680 There's nothing personal, it's just creative energy. So I think 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:16.759 after I also remember there was a period I can't 0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:18.839 remember which album it was, towards the end of the 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:20.960 ones that we made together, where Tom sort of went 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:23.400 through a dark phase. If you remember, he showed up 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:26.840 a studio with a cane echo. Yeah, and yeah, he 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.120 was not the regular time or personal problems going on there. Yeah, 0:46:30.280 --> 0:46:33.839 texts everything due absolutely, but you remember it was like 0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:37.719 the whole energy. I remember the whole energy shifted for 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:41.959 a while. It was dark. I'm sad, yeah, and I'd 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:44.160 rather not remember too much of that. But you're right, 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:47.560 it was a phase we went through. I think some 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:49.719 there was some interesting songs that came out of it. 0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:54.479 And nonetheless, like uh, echo was a good song room 0:46:54.520 --> 0:46:56.399 at the top of the world, and it was there. 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:02.279 There were some good songs, but it was a it 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:07.719 was a you know, you're in life or in and creativity, 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:09.719 you go through ups and downs and dark periods and 0:47:10.280 --> 0:47:14.920 great periods. And I remember fun being in the studio 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:19.279 at that time. It wasn't fun. No, that that little way, 0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:22.560 And that's the thing me personally, And we did that 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:25.080 and we lived through it and we survived that. But 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:28.279 me personally, especially at this point in my life, like 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:30.719 I just did this record with my own band, and 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:33.560 it's fun. Yeah, it's gotta be. I make it fun, 0:47:33.640 --> 0:47:37.239 you know, And when when guys are having fun, you 0:47:37.280 --> 0:47:39.680 can hear it, you can feel it, you can tell. 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:42.359 I'll be happy when you get to hear my record. Yeah, 0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:44.160 I can't wait. You want to listen to a song now, 0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:47.239 it's a really good record, great, I want to hear. Yeah, Well, 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:49.080 let's just play. This is the one that got a 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:55.680 little bit of an angus rhythm, guitar, great groove, Thank you. 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:59.200 Who's who's in the band. It's me Matt log on 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:03.400 the drums, my friend Jason Say on guitar, and Lance 0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:07.719 Morrison on the bass. So cool. Yeah, you know, I 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:11.800 remember that was really fun. While we were making Wildflowers, 0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:18.080 we went into ocean Way with the with the Heartbreakers 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:21.640 and we did a few in a short time. In 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:24.480 a few days, we recorded about one hundred songs. I 0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:26.399 don't know if you remember that, but ended up being 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:29.960 most of what's on that box set. Okay, we did 0:48:30.000 --> 0:48:35.279 a lot of covers. Okay, the playback set. Yeah, but 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:39.120 I remember that. Do you remember going to ocean Way 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:42.400 and it was to it was Tom's idea, was I 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:46.560 think it was? Um the old record Company was going 0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:49.520 to put out the Greatest Hits record and they needed 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:53.400 two songs for the Greatest Hits album, and the album 0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:56.120 Wildflowers was going to be a quote unquote Tom Petty 0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:58.520 solo record and it had a different vibe. And we 0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:01.359 were doing that at sound City and Tom said, well, 0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:03.839 for the two songs, I don't want to record them 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:09.000 in the wild Flowers setting. Let's set up a different studio. 0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:12.000 We'll do it completely differently. And we did the two 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:15.800 songs for that album, which were Mary Jane, Mary Jane 0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:19.279 and the cover something in the Air, Something in the Air, 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:24.600 But we also recorded a million covers just for fun. 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:30.000 Mary Jane Shure turned out good. Yeah, I can remember. Also, 0:49:30.000 --> 0:49:31.239 I don't know, I don't even know if you know 0:49:31.320 --> 0:49:35.759 this story, but Tom sent me a rehearsal tape of 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:41.880 song ideas and he's like, Okay, what do you think 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:45.960 because it was like a separate writing session for the 0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:48.600 Greatest Hits, like what's going to be on the Greatest Hits? 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:51.880 And it had a bunch of songs on it, and 0:49:51.920 --> 0:49:53.879 I remember not liking any of it. I just didn't 0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:58.080 think it was good. But in between in between a 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:00.480 couple of the songs, or in between one of the songs, 0:50:00.760 --> 0:50:03.400 that was the guitar riff, and it was you playing 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:08.600 what ended up being Last Dance with Mary Jane. Oh. 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:13.200 That guitar riff was like it wasn't one of the 0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:16.200 songs on the tape. It was just a riff in 0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:20.680 between songs. That happens a lot, like a preparation riff. Yeah, yeah, 0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:24.720 that happens a lot with our band between the songs. Yeah. 0:50:24.760 --> 0:50:26.920 And I remember saying to Tom, it's like that is 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:33.080 the song? Whatever that is is the song? Cool? Yeah, mystery. 0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:38.840 Yeah it worked out, It worked out. Yeah, crazy, what 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:44.120 a life. Amazing to feel old now. But you're right. 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:46.920 I mean a lot of people we've had, we had 0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:52.080 several peaks, and most bands are lucky to get one. Absolutely, 0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:54.719 and I don't know, we're just blessed. But I think 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:58.080 we just, you know, Tom and to some extent me 0:50:58.520 --> 0:51:06.200 tuned into some songs that are timeless. Absolutely. What was 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:09.880 the energy like on the last tour? It was great. 0:51:10.200 --> 0:51:13.440 It really was beautiful. And we had no idea. I mean, 0:51:13.440 --> 0:51:16.120 he had a little a bit of hip pain, but 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:18.920 I know if it had been really bad, we'd have 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:22.200 heard about it. Yeah, it was just a minor nuance 0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:27.000 and he was happy. And I remember the last the 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:29.000 last gig at the Hollywood Ball I looked at his 0:51:29.040 --> 0:51:32.040 face at one point and he was just beaming and 0:51:32.120 --> 0:51:34.320 he was so proud of the audience and so proud 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:36.480 of him and the band and to be in that moment, 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:39.480 and I remember thinking like, wow, I want to I 0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:42.759 want my head to be in that space. So it 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:49.439 was a beautiful tour. I mean, yeah, if you got 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:51.520 to go out, that's a good way to go out. 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:56.719 I still can't believe he's gone. I haven't two years 0:51:56.719 --> 0:52:00.040 now or over two years. Yeah, I'm okay with it 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:01.879 most of the time. It hits maybe now and then, 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:05.440 but you know, you have to just makes no sense, bizarre, 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:09.759 But I guess life that doesn't make sense, mishap, you know. 0:52:12.280 --> 0:52:13.839 I try not to do all on it too much. 0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:17.759 Of course, I'm very proud of what we did. When 0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:21.000 I hear stuff on the radio, that's good work, you know. 0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:26.040 That was weird. I remember the day after getting the news. 0:52:27.600 --> 0:52:30.960 It was at dinner in a place in Santa Monica, 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:36.319 and one of the songs from the first one of 0:52:36.320 --> 0:52:39.960 the songs from the first album came on just I 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.879 don't know if it was in memorial or if they 0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:45.799 just happened, if it just happened to come on in 0:52:45.840 --> 0:52:52.000 a playlist, And I remember feeling like in hearing the music, 0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:55.960 I felt like, oh, he's more alive than ever before. 0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.799 It's like this is this is a lot, this is 0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:03.520 a live where here like this lives. That's the beauty 0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:11.560 of music. Yeah, mutic is Forever. Thanks to Mike Campbell 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.040 for running down the history of the Heartbreakers and sharing 0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:16.799 its new music with Rick. You can hear all of 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.279 our favorite music featuring Mike Campbell by checking out the 0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:22.839 playlist for this episode at broken record podcast dot com. 0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:25.960 Broken Record is produced help from Jason Gambrell, Mia Lobell, 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:29.040 and Leah Rose for Pushkin Industries. I've Been music is 0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:31.960 by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.