1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm a lot of way 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: before the it was don't presiditating factors to this. We 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: didn't have a fight. I'm just started and still like 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: stoned and shocked, even after six months out of town. 5 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Zen Your Hernandez spoke to us by phone Monday, just 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: after she published this message to Abby on the website 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: bring Abby home dot com. Sen your rights quote. In 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: the beginning, minutes and hours lasted eternity. Hours turned to days, weeks, months, 9 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: and the first days I didn't think I could survive 10 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: the blinding shock, not even for a week. But over 11 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: the past six months, then you has how have you 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: been even coping? Oh? I don't have a choice? Uh 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: show and I just don't have a choice. We have 14 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: to do. We're talking about Abigail her Nandez, a teen 15 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: girl who goes missing, last scene on school surveillance video. 16 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: How can that happen? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 17 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls. 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: Nine zero nine four nine two seven four six three 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: nine zero nine four nine Crime Abby her Nandez. There's 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: been a stunning break in the case, but it all 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: goes back to the moment she was taken, the moment 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: she was kidnapped to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, let me just introduce everybody an all 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: star lineup just for you right now. Cheryl McCollum with me, 25 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor. Dr 26 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall renounced like analysts out of l A. Veteran 27 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: defense attorney Troyce Layton, also from l A. Dr William Maroney, 28 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner and author of a new book American Narcan, 29 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: and Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley. Cheryl McCollum, 30 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: you have two children. I have two children. I don't 31 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: get it. She's on school surveillance, everything's fine. Then she's 32 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: just gone like she never even existed, Cheryl, biggest nightmare. 33 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: You drop them all. You think they're fine, You think 34 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, they've got teachers that normally care about them. 35 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: There's generally a school resource officer, and this child literally 36 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: vanishes with everybody around her that knows. Abby Hernandez, a 37 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: teen girl, seemingly just vanishes off the face of the earth. 38 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: How did she go missing? John Limley. Well. The mother 39 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: Zenya Hernandez really didn't think anything was strange at first. 40 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: When her fourteen year old daughter Abigail didn't come home 41 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: from school on in October afternoon, she thought, well, she 42 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: could be anywhere. She's probably at school with her friends. 43 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: Zenya is a nurse, happy life in North Conway, New Hampshire, 44 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: raising two daughters, Sarah and Abigail, also known as Abbey. Well. 45 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: As a new high school freshman, Abby studied German robotics, 46 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: love classic rock, so she was a busy kid. So 47 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: her not showing up from school, she was off exploring life. 48 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: And so when Abby didn't answer her mother's text, Zenya, well, 49 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: she did eventually begin to worry. Abby had never just 50 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: not shown up at home from school. Yeah, that was 51 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: the first alarm right then when she didn't answer her 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: mother's texts to Dr Bethany Marshall Psycho Alice joining us 53 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: out of l A. I mean with me and the 54 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: twins are about to turn eleven. You can't come down 55 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: on them every time they do, like for instance, when 56 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: John David places thirty one minutes of the Evil Fortnit 57 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: or as we call it, Fortnight. Uh, I can't come 58 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: down on him for that, or Lucy once again, we're 59 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: up at ten o'clock at night doing the homework she 60 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: was supposed to do at three thirty. Yeah, but long 61 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: story short, if you if you beat him over the 62 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: head every single time they do anything, pretty soon they're 63 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: gonna be climbing out in the bedroom window and you're 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: not going to see him at all. So you know, 65 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 1: you gotta temperate. So when Abby didn't answer the mom's 66 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: first couple of texts, moms like, Okay, I don't like it, 67 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna come down on her. But then 68 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: it went bad. It went sideways. Well it went bad 69 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: um just about two fifty seven, because that's when Abby 70 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: texted her boyfriend who was riding home on the bus, 71 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: and texted a little heart emoji to him. But I 72 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: think that might have been her last text. And you're 73 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: talking about John, David and Lucy. You know, there's such 74 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: a fine line between loving your children and then intruding 75 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: into them. I find with my nephews and nieces, I 76 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: always want to say, how is your day, how are 77 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: you doing? Did you do your homework? But pretty soon 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: they start to feel intruded on and control, so this 79 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: mom was trying to give her daughter a little space. 80 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: And this mom also no new Abby. She knew her daughter, 81 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: She knew that her daughter had a big life. A 82 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: John Lemley described love robotics, loved you know, all kinds 83 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: of things, and was also a very friendly young woman. 84 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: So she gave her a little space. So unfortunately, um 85 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: it was space in which bad things started to happen. 86 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: Little did mommy know then that her little girl Abby 87 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: would soon be held in a cargo container wearing a 88 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: shock collar around her neck. Listen as her friends beg 89 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: her to come home. Dear Abby, I cannot tell you 90 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: enough how much you are missed. I know you probably 91 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: have heard at some point that you are missed, but 92 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: I don't think it can be described and missing that 93 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: goes on the words we miss you, Abby. Flash across 94 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: the new video posted on the Bring Abbey Home website. 95 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: It's filled with messages from friends, updates on high school 96 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: moments she's missed since she disappeared. Hi, Abby, I know 97 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: I haven't seen you in a while, and I wrote 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: you a letter. But first I'd really like to show 99 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: you around my room because I repainted it and I 100 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: read it all. I really need you back because nobody 101 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: else like you. You're not only the funniest person I 102 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: will probably have the ability of meeting, but you make 103 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: my day just bias talking. It is another attempt to 104 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: reach Abby Hernandez last scene leaving Kennett High School in 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: North Conway last October. In December, her mother revealed that 106 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: she had received a letter from Abby, but no clues 107 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: were released as to why she vanished or where she 108 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: could be. Letters are also posted on the website. One 109 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: friend writes, I am missing our walks down to lunch 110 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: from algebra and our talks about the most random things. 111 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: Another says, one of the hardest things is knowing that 112 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: I can't talk to you when I need you the most. 113 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: But yeah, we just really really miss you. Abby. Please 114 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: be home soon. That's our friend Jane mcken. At w 115 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: M you are earlier, we heard from Nick spinetto at 116 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: w M. U are trying desperately to find Abby, her 117 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: friends posting videos pictures begging her to come home. They 118 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: had no idea that at that moment she was being 119 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: held in a cargo container by a freak who was 120 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: forcing her to call him Master and wear a shock 121 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: collar around her neck. What does that main to? Dr 122 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: William Moroney, you know, a veteran medical examiner, author of 123 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: a brand new book on Amazon American Narcan. Dr William Ronny. 124 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: We always here shock collar. What is a shock collar? 125 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: A shock collar is a conductive metal to bring a 126 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: charge from a battery to the skin. And the shock 127 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: collar is designed to be around the neck because that's 128 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: some of the thinnest skin on the human body, and 129 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: those are also some of the thickest neck muscles, and 130 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: they run up to the head and it causes pain. 131 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: It causes pain in the head, it causes pain and 132 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: back of the head, it causes pain in the jaw, 133 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: Whereas if you try to put a shot collar on 134 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: a somebody's thigh, it's not going to make the same 135 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: negative contribution. There's no negative feedback when you shock a big, 136 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: huge muscle, So you put it on the neck because 137 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: there's very thin skin and those muscles run up to 138 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: the head. Negative reinforcement. And it's operated by remote control, 139 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: infrared or ultrasound. They're used only sparingly on animals, usually 140 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: in training or for discipline, and then when the animals 141 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: learn the parameters of a yard and they no longer 142 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: run out of the yard. People take the shot collars 143 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: off or around small children to teach animals not to 144 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: impede on the space of a small child. But on 145 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: the human there's a big thick code of fur. And 146 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,599 Speaker 1: like I said, those are very thin skin parts and 147 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: they go up to the head, very very negative reinforcing. 148 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: You know, Dr William Moroney, as learned and experienced as 149 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: you are, I guess you never thought you got a 150 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: medical skill to talk about a shot caller. Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. 151 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: He's telling me the physical impact of a shot caller. 152 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: But you look at it in a different way, Dr Bethany, Well, 153 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: I look at it as sadism. I know we've talked 154 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: about this so many times, but sadism is one of 155 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: the five perversions listed in the d s M. And 156 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: sadism is when a perpetrator wants to inflict pain on 157 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: a victim to enhance is his her own sexual arousal. 158 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: That's what it is, the end of the day. And 159 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: so you know, sadly, as soon as this perpetrator um 160 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: kidnapped Abby, I think he started to set up conditions 161 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: in which he could inflict pain upon her. I'm sure 162 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: there was psychological torture or physical torture. As you at earlier, 163 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: she was had held in a plastic container. I don't 164 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: know how big that container was. But one of the 165 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: things we know about sociopaths is that they have very 166 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: poor sexual arousal outside of inflicting pain on their victims. 167 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: In other words, they can't get turned on without hurting 168 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: another person. So the m O of the kidnapping, the abduction, 169 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: the infliction of pain is that it's a highly sexually 170 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: motivated crime. And when I think about this fourteen year 171 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: old girl being held and reportedly a cargo container wearing 172 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: a shot collar, it's almost more than I can think 173 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: my mind. Twins are soon to be eleven, that's just 174 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: three years away. Speaking of inflicting pain, if you have 175 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not 176 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: want to miss the new docuseries on Oxygen, The true 177 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: story of a teen girl, a Mississippi cheerleader, burned alive, 178 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: the story of the man accused of this horrific crime. 179 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: Is the right man on trial? Who is he? And 180 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime 181 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: even happen more questions than answer is a case that 182 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: has captured American headlines, takes over social media, and leaves 183 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: a small town divided. A musty TV event, Unspeakable Crime, 184 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: The Killing of Jessica Chambers, air Saturday, September fift seven, 185 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: sixth Central on Oxygen, the new network for Crime. He said, 186 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking of finding something a little more 187 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: humane for you to keep you quiet. So I'm thinking 188 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: of a shock collar. You know, they're like dogs. Where 189 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: a shock collar. I remember he put it on me 190 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: and he told me, okay, try and scream, and I 191 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: just slowly started to raise my voice and then it 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: shocked me. So he's like, okay, now you know what 193 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: it feels like. You know, did you ever learn his name? 194 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: Did he say anything about who he was? Actually, he 195 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: told me, um, call me, call me master. What a freak, 196 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: What a freak, A horrible monster that stole fourteen year 197 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: old Abby Hernandez, last seen on school video. Mom had 198 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: no idea what was happening. You are hearing our friends 199 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: at ABC's twenty in the voice of Abby Hernandez. Abby 200 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: Hernandez kidnapped and taken taken away from her home from 201 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: her mother from her school. It's hard for me to 202 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: take in Troy Slayton. You are the defense attorney, the 203 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney joining us out of l A. How 204 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: do you defend the use of a shot caller on 205 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: a little girl. You certainly can't. You can't defend the indefensible. 206 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: So in a case like this, you're simply looking to 207 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: make the best deal for your client and spare his life. 208 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: And so in this case you're trying to find any 209 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: mitigating circumstances. There anything possible in the case. Uh So 210 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: you can structure a plea deal, a plea bargain, as 211 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: it's known. Two. So that way that your client um 212 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: has is spared the pain of a trial and opens 213 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: up the possibility that he could be paroled at some 214 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: point in the future. You know, it's just just hurting 215 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: me to hear you even say paroled someday in the future. 216 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: We were talking about Abbe Hernandez, a fourteen year old 217 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: school girl tortured, horribly, repeatedly sex assaulted in a shipping container, 218 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: held for nine months. The reality is Cheryl McCullum, director 219 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, the fact that she 220 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: survived is the miracle after the first week. Statistically she 221 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: should have been dead. No question that in and of 222 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: itself is a miracle. But I'm gonna tell you something. 223 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: While the defense attorney is going out trying to figure 224 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: out a mitigating circumstance to get his hunt to best deal, 225 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: if this were my case, I'd be hit in the 226 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: streets talking to every prostitute I can find to tell 227 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: me stories about this guy. I'll be going to every 228 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: six shop in that town finding out stories about this guy. 229 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: He didn't go from zero to the shipping container to 230 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: kidnapping this child with a shock caller. There are stories 231 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: all over the place about this guy, and I would 232 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: get every one of them, every single one. Cheryl McCollum 233 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. She's right, this guy didn't 234 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: go from zero to to fifty uh mph, just like that. 235 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: He's got to have a history before he did this. Wendy, 236 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: you bet, and I'm gonna say amen, Cheryl. You know 237 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of incidents out there that the prosecution 238 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: can find, although they didn't need to in this case 239 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: because after he let her go by the way, not 240 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: out of the grace of his heart, but because he 241 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: thought the police were going to raid his home. You 242 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: talk about mitigating circumstances, which Troy has to that's his 243 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: role in the case. But in terms of aggravating circumstances, 244 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: the duration, the length of time, the sophistication, the shock collar, 245 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: all of the extent to which he took and that's 246 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: another reason. You know, he didn't go from zero to 247 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: the shipping container. All of that they can put together, 248 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: including whatever they can find in the community. It is 249 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: a miracle he didn't get ten tho life sentences out 250 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: of this case. But I think we can all rest 251 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: easy that he will not be paroles Well do you 252 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: think he won't? Right? But remember remember I'm so often. 253 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: For instance, Charles Manson at the time was going to 254 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: get the death penalty, but then suddenly, whoops, they reversed it. 255 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: So he managed to live out his life basically dying 256 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: from old age. After having Internet relationships and money making 257 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: machine Sheen, celebrity visitors, the works. Things happened. I fully 258 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: believe he could easily be paroled in a number of years. 259 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: And what threw a lot of people off was that 260 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: she was caught. She Abby, the little girl was caught 261 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: on security surveillance video at her mom's home walking in 262 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: the front door looking like everything was okay. In fact, 263 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it right now. There she is. She's 264 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: dressed in a striped top and dark boots. She's holding 265 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: her hand up to her mouth, which is a uh as. 266 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: She's walking alone, which is a sign of fear or 267 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: shock or trepidation. And she's walking along a short path 268 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: that leads up to the doorstep of her home in Hampshire. 269 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: People saw that and went, oh, she just went out, 270 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: she's been on a walk about, she ran away and 271 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: now she's home. But Cheryl McCullum, you're right. He let 272 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: her go for a reason that s ob He did 273 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: not want to get caught and think about after nine 274 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: months of torture physically, sexually, mentally, psychologically. He has been 275 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: messing with her for nine months, four hours a day. 276 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: She's probably almost walking up to that door in a fog, 277 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: like is this real? Am I really going to be safe? 278 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: Am I really going to be in my own house 279 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: with my mom in my own bedroom. She was probably stunned. 280 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying to take in what really happened 281 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: to her. Dr William Moroney with me, very well known 282 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: medical examiner joining us the author of a brand new 283 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: book on Amazon American Narkan Dr Moroney. She was thin, 284 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: she looked emaciated. It's like she had been a po w, 285 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. Dr Maroney. That's exactly what happens 286 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: to the body in prisoner of war camps from World 287 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: War two a way through Southeast Asia. What you have 288 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: is a lack of access of good exercises causes muscle atrophy. 289 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: People lose their tone, and you can never keep up 290 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: a good calorie count, so you lose weight in general, 291 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: and then the body begins to burn fat because you 292 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: don't have enough calories. Then you get sunken eyes, you 293 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: you lose um, good, solid, healthy round facial features. Now 294 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: these can all come back with exercise and a good diet. 295 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: But it's a very common syndrome that we saw all 296 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: the way through. Most likely it's it's dramatized by some 297 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: of the pictures we saw from Auschwitz. People lose body fat, 298 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: people lose muscle, then they're weak, they have poor posture, 299 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: and don't forget the internal organs they're suffering because you're 300 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: not eating well. And where's the sunshine and the fresh air, 301 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: and how about cleaneliness. You lose the opportunity to have 302 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: a natural um biological just kind of good healthy bacteria 303 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: on you, the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff away, 304 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: So you're prone to disease. You're prone to infections, fungal infections, 305 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: yeast infections, bladder infections, skin infections, so all sorts of 306 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: things go wrong and you don't have an immune system 307 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: to fight back. It was during an interview that Abigail 308 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: Hernandez told detectives from the Conway Police Department and New 309 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: Hampshire State Police that it was Nathaniel Kibbey that helder captive. 310 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: According to the affidavit, Abigail told detectives that at one 311 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: point during her confinement, Kimby quote handed her a cookbook 312 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: that had the name Nate Kibby written inside, and he 313 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: also provided her with a ruler that had the initials 314 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: N E K written on it. Abby says she used 315 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: paper from a notebook and was given a pen so 316 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: she could write a letter to her mother and her boyfriend. 317 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: When asked by detectives if she could provide more details 318 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: about where she was being held, Abigail quote remembered seeing 319 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: a framed copy of the Declaration of Independence hanging on 320 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: the wall a leopard print blanket on the bed. At 321 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: the end of the interview, detectives presented a photo lineup 322 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: of eight men that included a photo of Kimby. The 323 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: affidavit says she immediately picked out Nathaniel Kimby without hesitation, 324 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: and that she broke down emotionally and said she was 325 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: percent sure the man in the photo was the man 326 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: who took her. You're hearing our friends at w m 327 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: U are detailing what happened after Abby came home and 328 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: how she revealed to the police who kidnapped her. Okay, 329 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna put it out there. 330 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: I love the Declaration of Independence, and yes it's me 331 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: that carries around a pocket copy of the Constitution. But 332 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: you know what, this freak had the Declaration of Independence 333 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: framed on his wall. That tells me a lot about him. 334 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: But hey, I'm just a j D. You're the psychoanalyst 335 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall out of l a way in Well. 336 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty ironic to the Declaration of 337 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: Independence on his wall while he's putting a choke caller 338 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: on a fourteen year old or a shock caller and 339 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: asking her to call him master. There have to be 340 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: other people in his life that he had ultimate power over, 341 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: whether it was a girlfriend, um, a prostitute that he 342 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: picked up the quite a minute right there, right there. 343 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: You know he's been with hook I mean, please, I'm 344 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: telling you, Cheryl McCollum. Dr Bethany's right, he has been 345 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: uh exerting the same genre of hateful conduct toward hookers. 346 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: I guarantee you, Cheryl, there's no doubt about it. And 347 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm telling you some of these women, unfortunately, are not 348 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: going to come forward. They're not going to call the police. 349 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: But everyone they might be. Dad, Cheryl, have you thought 350 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: of that? Absolutely? I will get into that. But again 351 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: with this guy, I am telling you those were his 352 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: test humans. Those were his test subjects. He has lived 353 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: out part of this fantasy repeatedly on women that he paid. 354 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: Now you see him living it out for real. That's 355 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: all this is in his Fifty Shades of Perversion. You 356 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: know to Dr William are only medical examiner and author. 357 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: Listen to this. He had the Declaration of Independence on 358 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: his wall framed. Nothing wrong with that, turns out he 359 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: was a gun nut that believed there would absolutely be 360 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: a zombie apocalypse. Help me, Dr Maroney, here's the problem 361 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: with a lot of the people that buy into that genre. 362 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how you're gonna finish that sentence with 363 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: just one problem. Here's the problem. There's so many problems, 364 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, with this gun zombie A copyn live in 365 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: this real world, can't follow laws. People feel bored and 366 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: they look for some television, big style movie lifestyle saving 367 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: the world fighting zombie. He's delusionals. As a medical person, 368 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: when you see somebody like this, you look for activities 369 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: a daily living. Can they function, Do they have a job, 370 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: do they have friends? Do they pay taxes? And at 371 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: every level he's probably deficient. The only thing we haven't 372 00:23:53,640 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: talked about is is he suffering from rabid substance abuse? 373 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: Is this guy lost in illicit drawing? Are you making 374 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: excuses for him? I thought you were on my side, Maroney, 375 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: because there's tens of thousands of people out there like 376 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: him that just start locking teenage girls up in boxes. 377 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: All sorts of people believe this not my neighborhood. But 378 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: what you're telling me is you think he's got some 379 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: mental defect. Really you think so. So, if he's got 380 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: a mental defect, Maroney, how did he manage to keep 381 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: it a secret for nine months? He kept keeps this 382 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: girl in a storage container on some secluded property. Nobody 383 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: could find her. He's right there under their noses. He 384 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: outsmarted everybody crazy like a fox. This guy isn't crazy, Maroney. 385 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: It's antisocial personality disorder. He keeps away from other people. 386 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: It's we're gonna have a hard time finding people that 387 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: really know him. And in the end, it's isolation instead 388 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: of cohabitation. If he'd integrated healthy in junior high, in society, 389 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: in an occupation where he could be normal, pay taxes, 390 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: have a job, none of this stuff develops. It's when 391 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: you pull yourself in and you live with a computer 392 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: screen and you're only on the internet, and you really 393 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: believe in the stupid zombie garbage. Then you reach out 394 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: and locked people up in containers because of strange relationships. 395 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: These are all abnormal relationships at different levels. He may 396 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: need lifelong, instant institutionalization and therefore never get parole because 397 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: his brain is so scrambled. It's like a frittata on 398 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: the south side of Manhattan real thought about it like that. 399 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, Uh, this is where you come in. I say, 400 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: the guys totally sane. He's just evil. And Troy Slayton, 401 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: I know you're too sophisticated and educated to believe that 402 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: there is evil like the devil in this world. But 403 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: I am telling you, Troy Slaton, there is, and this 404 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: guy Kibby is the devil. Evil Troy, Is that a 405 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: defense in the codebook? It's certainly not. But there are 406 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: there are plenty people that are evil that don't go 407 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: and do things like this, like Dr Moroney described antisocial behavior. 408 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: So as a defense attorney, I am looking, like I said, 409 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: for any anything that could be mitigating, including a potential 410 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: uh mental defect that would have caused him to engage 411 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: in this activity. That might provide the opportunity for him 412 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: to receive mental health assistance while he's incarcerated, so that way, 413 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: maybe at some point in the future he can be 414 00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: rehabilitated and restored to society. Listen, I noticed on the 415 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: door there were wires. They were like screws and then wires. 416 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: And he told me that he tripped the door so 417 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: that if for any reason it was busted open, the 418 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: room would catch on fire, so that you couldn't survive 419 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: if somebody found this, somebody kicked open the door, that 420 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: I would quickly go up in flames, basically, So there 421 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: was a lot of psychological intimidation and fear. Here were 422 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: you on edge all this time? Yeah, I was afraid 423 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: that the room would set on fire. And there was 424 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: a camera that was always blinking like a security camera, 425 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: and I thought he was watching me. That's from our 426 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: friends at. It was almost like it was a shock, 427 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: like I had a shutter and I couldn't believe what 428 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: I was saying. That was such a beautiful moment. She 429 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her. 430 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: She looked different, she really did. I could see stress, 431 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: those months of stress in her face, and it kind 432 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 1: of killed me a little bit. But I was just 433 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: so relieved to see you are hearing from our friends 434 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: at David Muir and Amy Roboc That is Abby seeing 435 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: her mother for the first time. And I'm totally covered 436 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: in goose bumps right now. Cheryl McCollum. Sometimes I start 437 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: crying when the twins. My eyes cheer up when the 438 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: twins come out of school. For me, to pick him up. Okay, 439 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: can you imagine one of your two beautiful children coming 440 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: up the Oh, it's too much. And Cheryl, you are 441 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: the director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Most of 442 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: your cases you deal with, the parents have never had 443 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: that moment where the child comes home. It never happens. 444 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: And then at a miracle, the mom sees like the 445 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: prodigal son at a distance, she sees her daughter coming 446 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: up to the front porch. Is the miracle, Nancy, And 447 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: then you know to say they have that moment, which 448 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: is just unbelievable. It is absolutely a miracle. And then 449 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: all of this information comes out about what happened to 450 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: that child repeatedly every day for nine months in a 451 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: cargo container, wearing a shot collar, being sex assaulted, raped 452 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: and beaten every single day. And the ways I want 453 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: to say one thing about whether or not this guy 454 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: knew right from wrong. He damn well knew it was 455 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: wrong because what he thought the police were coming he 456 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: had to get rid of. He absolutely had the capacity 457 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: to understand what he was doing was illegal. His action 458 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: fruit absolutely and that's just where I was head at CHERYLD. 459 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, John Limley, and all cracked wide open because 460 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: of another girl. This is why Abby Hernandez was released 461 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: and probably why she's alive right now. A young girl 462 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: that had fallen in with the wrong craft and they 463 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: go party at a local hotel for the weekend, and 464 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: she decides to go onto a dating website. And she 465 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: goes on to a dating website and who should show 466 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: up to her her hotel room but Nathaniel Kimby And 467 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: then what happened? Give it to me in a nutshell, Limley, Well, 468 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: this is where two cases come colliding. Lauren Monday did 469 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: go on this date with Kibby. She knew absolutely nothing 470 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: about Abby, that he was holding a team captive. And 471 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: it all came down to Monday using counterfeit money that 472 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: Kimby had given her. So Kibby leaves a couple of 473 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: fifties when he leaves, and she tries to use him 474 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: at Walmart. The next day, she's picked up for counterfeit money. 475 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: And she's so mad at the guy that left at 476 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: her date, Jay going by the name Jay, so she 477 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: calls him and blesses him out on her cell phone. 478 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: And that's when Kimby, as Troy Slateman, have you believe 479 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: is insane? Thought? Oh, no, She's called me on my 480 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: cell phone. Cops are gonna come here, and he lets 481 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: Abby go. Let's Abby go. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. You 482 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: know what, the truth is ranger than fiction, right? Oh? 483 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: Amen to that as well. Not only is the truth 484 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: stranger than fiction, but one of the reasons that this 485 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: is such an inspirational story in retrospect is you talk 486 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: about evil, you also talk about good and the what 487 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: this woman did, This young woman, this brave young woman 488 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 1: who prayed every single day and actually, according to some 489 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: of whom have looked at this in retrospect, was the 490 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: textbook victim. In terms of talking to this guy. This 491 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: is another thing that belies the notion that he was 492 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: insane or mentally deranged. In some sense, actually had the 493 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: wherewithal to bond with this guy. He knew what he 494 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: was doing. She became a sort of trusted confidante to 495 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: the extent that he gave her books to read, one 496 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: of which had his name in it. So you talk 497 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: about resourcefulness. Also, this also goes to the aggravating circumstances 498 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: that I would argue as a prosecutor. He knew exactly 499 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: what he was doing. The entire time he held her captive, 500 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: and that is one of the things that will be 501 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: considered and was considered in his sentencing. You know, Dr 502 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: William Rowney, um estaimed medical examiner and author of a 503 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: brand new book on Amazon American arcan Dr Maroney. You 504 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: know they don't like you to talk about this on TV, 505 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: but I can tell you this much, and I think 506 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: you'll agree with me. It wasn't just resourcefulness. It was 507 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: a miracle. This girl did pray every day that she 508 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: would be free to see her mother again, and she 509 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: was delivered. I firmly believe that, Dr Maroney. Sometimes you 510 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: have to admit what breaks down in everyday life is 511 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: we have good and evil, and we have choices. We 512 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: can make it take us down one path or another. 513 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: Her salvation was her faith. His reprehensible sick behavior is 514 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: the consequence of evil. Clearly, whether it's medicine, science, law, entertainment, 515 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: every day everything breaks down. Do we have choices between 516 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: good and evil? Now some people want to soften that 517 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: a little, between good and bad. I only think it 518 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: comes down to good and evil. I'm gonna take Dr 519 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: William Moroney's ethical philosophizing, with which I agree. I'm going 520 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: right back down the crapper with Dr Bethany Marshall. Okay, 521 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: here we are, Dr Bethany, as we have been so 522 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: many times before. You know, what's interesting about what you 523 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: said earlier, You know, you and I we get right 524 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: down in the mud. Okay, Dr Bethany. What you said 525 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: earlier about the sato messochistic aspect of how he could 526 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: only enjoy being with her if he were hurting her. 527 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: When he was with Lauren Monday, they fell asleep cuddling 528 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: and there was no sex right probably because he couldn't 529 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: he couldn't get an erection. He couldn't, he couldn't maintain 530 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: an erection and arousal unless he's inflicting cruelty on someone. 531 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: So there there's actually a very specific reason for this, 532 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: and the idea is that sociopaths have inner deadness or boredom. 533 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney used the word a board earlier in 534 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: the show when he was talking about you know tibbitts Our. 535 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: Ma'm sorry, um Nathaniel's preoccupation with zombies and he was 536 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: a gun nut. But so we know that they have 537 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: inner deadness boredom. They can't experience excitement in the normal ways, 538 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: whether it's sexual arousal or just the excitement of being alive. 539 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: They can't just look at a flower, watch a movie, 540 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: enjoy their relationships. The deadness leads them to a psychic 541 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: situation where they use cruelty, sadism, um, aggression, and seeing 542 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: fear in the eyes of the other in order to 543 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: ride the excitement of the infliction of pain in order 544 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: to gain that sexual arousal. And so that's why often 545 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: with sex crimes, I mean, take someone like the beat 546 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: k killer, there's often not we don't find at the 547 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: crime scene that semen honor in the body. Often there's 548 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: either no semen in the room even or the semen 549 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: is deposited somewhere completely away from the body because they're 550 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: so they're so busy inflicting the pain that the normal 551 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: type of sexual interaction never even occurs. It's like they 552 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: masturbate in frustration, maybe hours after the infliction of cruelty, 553 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: but they cannot have normal ejaculation while with the victims. Okay, 554 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: Down in the Mud with Dr Bethany, you know that 555 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: sounds like a great podcast. Down in the Mud with 556 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. Guys, I am amazed to say that there 557 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: is a happy ending. Listen. There were no cars coming 558 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: either way, and he said get out, So I got out, 559 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: and then he yelled, give me my hat back, give 560 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: me my hat back. I took the hat off, I 561 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: threw it in the car, slammed the door, and he 562 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: drove off, just like that, Just like that, that was it. 563 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: I remember looking up in Las laughing, just being so happy, like, 564 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: oh my god, this actually happened. I'm a free person. 565 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 1: I never thought it would happen to me, but I'm free. 566 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 1: And I just walked home, just never before seeing footage 567 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: of Abby returning home caught on the family security camera. 568 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: I remember when I came up to my doorstep. I 569 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: could hear my mom talking on the phone. I could 570 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: hear her voice opening the door and I said, Mom, 571 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: I remember she said Abby, and remember she ran out. 572 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: It was almost like it was a shock, like I 573 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: had a shutter and I couldn't believe what I was saying. 574 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: That was such a beautiful moment, she remembered. Just to 575 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: look on her face, I remember seeing her, and she 576 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: looked different, she really did. I could see stress, those 577 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: months of stress in her face, and it kind of 578 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: killed me a little bit, but I was just so 579 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: relieved to see her from our ends at ABC's twenty 580 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: well a miracle. Abbey is alive and Kimby is behind 581 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: bars for a very long time. All I can say 582 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: is p t L. Nancy graces Crime Story, signing off 583 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.