WEBVTT - Red Flags 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.520 The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.959 of the authors and participants and do not necessarily represent 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.719 those of iHeart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. This 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.400 series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener discretion 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:25.600 is advised previously an algorithm. After graduating high school in 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:29.920 in Lima, Ohio, Vaughan returned to Indiana, where he says 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.400 he committed three murders in Hammond, killing a couple as 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.200 part of a robbery and shooting a man after getting 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.960 into a fight. You said that you shot him near 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:42.240 the telephone call that was directly across right from there. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.440 How many times you think you shot at? By? After 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.360 a stint in the Marines, some head trauma and a 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.600 less than honorable discharge, Vaughn began dating a woman twenty 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:57.440 nine years older than him. They moved to Texas and 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:02.120 got married, but life kept drawing vond back to Gary 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.080 and they moved back. Around the year two thousand, Von 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.800 grew apart from his wife. He made a new girlfriend, Sharifa, 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.920 but it was an abusive relationship. In two thousand four, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.360 he and Sharitha had a child together, but shortly after 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:21.240 their child's birth. The child died. That n a dead 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.000 moment for we allowed the child. We're going through the 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.560 morning period. She was out, took the money to the nopeman. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.840 I was like, that's just too got me. What do 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.480 you want to fuck up? Like if we're just gonna 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:38.640 beat this ship over from my Heart radio and Tenderfoot TV, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:44.960 this is algorithm, I'm ben key break. After Von and 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.840 Shretha's child died, Sharia escaped Vaughn and went into hiding. 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.680 Von suspected Sharitha was staying with a friend of hers, 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.520 a man named David Abraham, who Vaughan said was a 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.000 drug dealer and a member of a rival gang, the 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:05.400 Vice Lords. Dude, we woke through somebody. I'm too, According 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.160 to a police report, near the beginning of April two 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.440 thousand four, Vaughan showed up at Abram's house and asked 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.240 if Shritha was there. Abram told him she wasn't, but 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.840 Vaughan got angry. I know she's in there, he said, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.119 and kept demanding to see her, but eventually Von gave 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.359 up and left. The Next day, Vaughan returned, this time 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.440 with police officers. Vaughn told them that Abram had shot 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.800 at his cousin Darryl. Abram talked to the police and 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:40.239 explained the situation. When the police were satisfied with Abram's story, 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.720 they left and Vaughan left as well. But Abram started 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.200 hearing through the grape vine that Vaughn was hatching a 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.239 plan to get back at him. Vaughn was telling people 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.520 he had dynamite and he was going to blow up 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:57.519 Abram's house. A few days later, Abram was driving through 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.880 his neighborhood when he saw Van storming towards his house 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.880 with a red can of gasoline. Abram called the police 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.840 and pulled over beside Vaughan. Vaughan yelled at him that 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.840 he'd blew up Abraham's home if he didn't get Sharita back, 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.680 and said that Shreta owed him seven thousand dollars. Abraham 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.920 tried to reason with Vaughan. He remembered saying, you're going 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.440 to burn down my family, innocent people, over a woman. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.600 Vaughan responded, give me seven thousand dollars and you can 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.320 have her. When the police showed up, they saw Vaughan 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.480 was standing by Abram's car, yelling wildly and waving around 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.280 a red gas canister. Police say that they tried to 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.320 get Von to calm down, but things escalated. Instead, Vaughn 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.000 poured gasoline on himself and got out of lighter, yelling 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.280 to officers that he had dynamite and would blow himself up. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.760 The officers advised Abraham to get away from Vaughan, so 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.760 Abraham drove back towards his home, but he could see 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.800 Vaughan following in his rear view mirror. Abraham says he 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.440 saw Sharita sitting on a porch a couple of doors 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.839 down from his home, and he threw her a set 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.400 of his keys and told her to lock herself inside. 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:14.280 But before Sharitha had a chance to react, Vaughan was 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:18.600 already approaching. He yelled, bitch, are you crazy, and then 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.360 started running towards her. She sprinted to the back door 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.320 of Abram's house. Von pursued her, gaining on her, but 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.120 she managed to get inside and locked the door behind her. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:35.200 Vaughan began kicking at the door. Terrified, Shartha tried to 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.000 find a place to hide and ended up crawling under 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.200 a bed. She could hear the door bust open and 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:46.760 then heard Von stepping inside Vaughan yelled that if she 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.599 didn't come out of hiding, he'd burned the whole place down. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:55.080 He began pouring gasoline onto the floor. Sharitha was terrified 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.680 and didn't know what to do, but as Vaughan kept 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:04.320 pouring gas, fumes began filling apartment and soon became overpowering. Finally, 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.920 Sharifa crawled out from under the bed. Immediately, Von put 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.600 her in a headlock, and then he poured gasolene on 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.320 top of her until the can was almost empty. The 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.640 final bit of gasoline he poured onto his own head 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.960 gabs just running off. Yeah, but the gas pipe and 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.320 had the whole bud to feel with games. Police had 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.320 now arrived at Abram's home, but Von told them to 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:33.080 stay back. We'd light the building on fire. Police tried 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.479 to talk him down and to clear others out of 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:40.080 the area. Vaughn says he started clicking the lighter the 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.080 girl fire, beat on fire and go to building up, 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.440 always saying it's part but it didn't light. You said 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:51.080 you got lucky fume with one hard. Officer Carrie Rice 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.680 was working that day. He remembers it a bit differently. 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.359 If he had tried to strike that cigarette line and 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.120 it didn't strike the person, he wouldn't have got a 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.160 second chance to try to strike it. He had a 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.520 deadly weapon, a gas on the cigarette for the deadly weapons, 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.919 deadly for it was authorized. You shouldn't and you don't 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.320 want to, but sometimes you scenario had it went different 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.240 in two thousand four, and maybe some people would still 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.120 be alive today. I don't know, but it's just eerie 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.680 sometimes because I don't think we still know I'm in 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.200 the women he's actually killed. Rice says that he was 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.679 nearby when Abram called. We don't have too many days 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.800 where we have stuff like this. In fact, it probably 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.000 my first time ever going to a hospital situation like 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.560 this one was. It was a strange scene with Sharifa 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.360 in a headlock. Vaughan had marched her out of Abram's 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.000 apartment and was starting back towards his own place. He 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.280 had a left hand around her neck, the gas can 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.800 in his left hand and cigarette lighter in his right hand. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.479 The girl was, of course scared. She was screaming, please 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.160 help me a lot. The officers tried to calm Vonda down. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.520 You trying to tell him you haven't heard anybody it's 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.280 gonna be okay. You know, let's go ahead end this 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.359 now and nobody hurts. You know, it's not that serious. 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.440 But he really didn't want to be, for some reason 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.760 separated from that female, and he wouldn't let any of 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.280 us get too close to him. But like if you 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.440 guys started getting close, he threatened to light him on fire. 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.280 Or yes, he kept telling us to stay away every 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.680 time you get the step twelve and be thrown the 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.880 light both of him up. And how would you describe 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:34.760 his general state of mind? Um, he was calm, but 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.600 but he was yellout. I guess he was yellous so 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.480 we could hear him. I really did believe that he 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.440 was going to set both of them on fired, you know, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.040 just from this demeanor what he was saying. Sure, you 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.360 kind of like running through in your head. What can 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.720 you do if he does do that? The only thing 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.800 we can do at that point is trying to at 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.080 least grab the female fell up to the ground and 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:00.360 try to put the fire up. As Vaughan March Wreatha 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.400 back to his apartment, a growing procession of police, firefighters, 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.480 and now a SWAT team followed. They crossed us twenty 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.880 a three way highway that runs through Gary, and they 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.800 went down an alleyway until they arrived at the back 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.440 door of Vaughn's apartment because back was up against the 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.400 door in the back of the apartment building. At that point, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.840 we had two or three of our swat team guys 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.480 go through the front door apartment buildings. But after he 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.840 backed up to the door and opened it, two of 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.560 us watch teams actually grabbed him. He ran up, also 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.480 grabbed the can. One of us grabbed the girl as 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.439 snatched her out, and that's not we were able to 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:45.720 prod him away from her. Vaughn was charged with felony 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.600 breaking and entering and felony intimidation. He took a plea 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.960 deal that knocked off the intimidation charge, and the judge 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.040 used her discretion to bump the breaking and entry charge 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.480 down to a misdemeanor. Vaughn was sentenced to a year 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.560 in praison in in a year of probation. Obviously, Von 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.160 was a deeply troubled person before this all happened. But 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.840 in Von's own mind, or at least the story that 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.840 he's told the police, this two thousand four incident, losing 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.040 his child and his relationship with Sharifa and then going 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.760 to prison. This was the incident that vond saw as 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.240 the beginning of his downward spiral. And then it seemed 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.360 like I never made it back from there. I was 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.079 doing good thing, a quick crime like quick back. What 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:35.280 are you now? Working at a house doing good? Just 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.800 couldn't make it back. We're at least if it wasn't 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.800 the beginning of his downward spiral, it may have been 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:46.360 when he returned to killing, it all went back out 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.840 of control again. I never made him back. Un Once 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.600 you I don't know how to flame. If y'all y'all 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.319 don't have the same or just once you start killing again, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.559 it becomes it's like any other day. It's like if 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:00.679 I was I'm not an out the hallway, right, But 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.400 if I were and I started to drink, you're off 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.680 to the races, right. That's because you have the urge 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:11.400 to hunt. In this part of the interview, Vaughan clearly 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.400 implies they struggled with murder rages sometime before his arrest 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.360 in two thousand four, and then he struggled with them 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:22.600 again after his release in two thousand five. In two 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.560 thousand and six, after Vaughan finished serving a year in 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.960 jail and a year of probation. He borrowed some money 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.559 from his stepsister, Regina, and moved back down to Texas. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.880 Vaughan got an apartment in the Rundberg area of North Austin, 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:41.520 an area known for drugs and prostitution. That's that same 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.480 area where Maria's son said that Vaughan would go for 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.520 long walks at night. In Austin, Vaughn kept a low 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:53.720 profile for about a year before he committed his next crime. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.000 In two thousand and six, after Vaughan had finished a 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.200 year of prison and a year of probation for breaking 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.120 and entering and threatening to kill Sharita, Vaughan moved back 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.120 to Austin, and in December two thousand seven, he committed 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:35.200 his next documented crime. This next section is going to 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.680 get graphic. I'm not including it to be lurid, but 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.320 because this is what von did, and maybe more importantly, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.960 this is what the justice system knew Vaughan was capable of. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:53.200 The following comes from police documents. On December two thousand seven, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:58.240 Vaughan booked a prostitute to come to his apartment. She 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:00.880 says they met in the parking lot inside his building, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.400 and then went back to his place. It was dark, 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.680 and she asked Vaughan if they could turn on a light. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.200 He did, and then asked her if she was a 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:15.640 police officer. She told him she wasn't, and then he 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.600 attacked her. He tripped her and knocked her down to 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.280 the ground, gone on top of her, and began choking her. 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.079 As she lost blood flow to her brain, she felt 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.840 her body go limp and she urinated. She felt completely 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:36.480 and utterly helpless. Vaughan yelled at her that he could 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.160 kill her if he wanted. She thought that she was 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.160 going to die. Vaughan then forced her to undress and 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:50.400 to perform sex acts, beating her if she didn't comply. Eventually, 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.480 he ejaculated inside her in a short while later, he 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.839 allowed her to leave. The Next day, the woman went 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:03.600 to the Austin Police to report the attack. A sexual 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.880 assault nurse observed that she had broken blood vessels in 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.320 her left eye and pinpoint bruises behind her ears. These 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.240 are injuries that can occur if someone has been strangled, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.520 so they supported her story of a violent attack. The 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:23.480 nurse performed a rape kit and collected DNA evidence. The 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.200 woman told police what had happened and where Von lived. 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.679 Police determined that Darren Vaughan was leasing the apartment at 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.360 the address she had given them, but he wasn't at 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:39.000 the apartment when they showed up. Eventually, they did locate him, 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.480 and Vaughan told them that he was innocent. He claimed 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.040 to have never met the victim and said that he 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.440 had moved out of the apartment a month prior to 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.400 the incident. Police asked him if he'd consent to a 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:56.200 DNA test, and he agreed. Almost half a year passed 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.840 before police received the DNA analysis His uncle year exactly 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.440 what caused this delay. Like many places across the country, 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.800 there was a rape kit backlog in Texas. It's worth noting, too, though, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.240 that there's currently a class action lawsuit against the Austin 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:17.080 Police Department for allegedly mishandling thousands of sexual assault cases 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.320 going back to the same time period. Whatever the reason, though, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.800 almost half a year passed between when the DNA was 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:29.560 collected and when police received the analysis. The analysis showed 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.720 a sample from the victims jacket matched Vaughn's DNA, but 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.080 it still took another two months before police found and 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:41.680 arrested Vaughan. Vaughn was charged with two counts of aggravated 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.920 sexual assault, a first degree felony that can lead to 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.960 a sentence of up to years in prison, but the 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.960 Travis County District Attorney's office labeled Vaughan a low risk 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.120 offender and gave him a plea deal where if he 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.520 played guilty to a second degree sexual assault charge, he'd 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:05.440 only see a five year sentence. Years later, a spokesperson 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.720 for the District Attorney's office told the local paper that 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.600 they were completely unaware of Vaughan's violent incident with Sharifa 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.360 because Vaughan had only been convicted of a misdemeanor breaking 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.560 and entering charge. It wasn't even on their radar when 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.120 I learned about the crimes Vaughan had been convicted of 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.240 ving Gary and Austin for incidents where he had almost 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.640 killed two women. I was shocked by the short sentences 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.360 he'd received, but I also just didn't have a good 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.000 sense for what's normal. How do we and how should 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.520 we make decisions about how we sentence someone for a crime. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.480 To try to find out how big of a threat 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:48.000 someone like Vaughan poses, I contacted professor Carl Hansen. If 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.160 you look at the police stories, the police stories are 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.120 almost always told from the perspective of catching the wrong door. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.120 My story starts, Okay, you caught him, Now what you know, 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.960 what's the rest of the story. Hanson is a clinical 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.280 psychologist who spent most of his career working for the 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.920 Canadian government trying to figure out how their justice system 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.560 should deal with sex offenders. He's now a professor at 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:16.600 Carlton University in Ottawa. Most of my research has focused 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.800 on sexual recidivism. So these are people with a history 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.000 of sexual crime, and the question is, given that somebody 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.400 has a history of sexual crime, what is the likelihood 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.600 that they're going to do it again? And how can 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:36.000 we tell individuals are higher or lower risk? Hansen says 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.160 there's a number of factors that predict whether an offender 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.440 is high risk or low risk, like young age, past crimes, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.760 negative attitudes towards authority, substance use, and a general preoccupation 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.200 with sex. All of these risk factors can then be 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.680 tallied up and put into an algorithm that then predicts 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:00.080 a sex offender's risk of committing future offenses. Studies know 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.520 that these algorithms do a better job at predicting recidivism 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.240 than pearl boards, who are decisions made by professionals based 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.840 on their intuition. The data is getting better. We can 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:16.040 stort people into higher and lower risks. The lowest risk 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.080 people have expected rates of sexual recidivism that are quite low. 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.600 It's like less than two percent after five years. The 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.960 highest risk groups have rates um, you know, thirty two 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.800 after five years, which I think most people would consider 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.520 objectively high. Now that being said, people are not fully predictable. 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:43.160 We're not billiard balls. Even somebody in the highest risk group. 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.199 There's no group that will say this person is guaranteed 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.600 to reoffend. It's a question of how much risk we're 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.399 willing to tolerate. I wondered whether Texas had all the 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.359 information it needed when it deemed von low risk. Should 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.200 the gasoline incident with Sharifa have been factor it in? 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:06.119 This guy at one point had kidnapped in an ex girlfriend, 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.040 So after she left the relationship, he showed up and 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.840 was threatening her with a can of gasoline, and you know, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.480 police showed up, and it was this whole thing. But 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.760 I'm curious how you know, like the history of a 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:24.080 crime like that might influence how you think of someone's risk. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.160 A history of of violence is a well established rispector 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.679 for sexual crime. If you knew this guy had a 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.920 history of threatening his ex girlfriends, um, it's not good. Yeah, 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.600 And and it's kind of like domestic violence or violence 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:45.159 against women. Is that particularly important or so? One of 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:49.399 the well established predictors of sexual violence against women is 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.480 his negative attitude towards women. You're putting women in a 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.320 class who they're not trusted. You know, think about in 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.680 cells individuals who think that women are or you out 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.040 to get them. They're tricky. You can't be trusted if 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.760 you have that belief. And if you also have problems 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.160 with what you know they college would call attachment, so 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:15.320 that you get particularly upset or irrational around the breakup 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.640 of relationships. Those are established risk factors for sexual violence. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.919 When Hansen mentioned attachment problems, I thought of Vaughan's relationship 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.000 with his mother, how he'd been put into foster care 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.399 at age six and felt that his mother had abandoned him. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:37.840 You know, there probably are factors from someone's childhood or 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:42.640 early experiences, are really things that they have little control over. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:48.280 Is it fair to use those factors to make these decisions, um, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.040 when in some ways they could help public safety, but 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:57.840 in other ways almost feel discriminatory against a person. Yeah, 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.080 it coming back to the moral question about you know, 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:05.360 how blame worthy people are. We're all a product of something, right, 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.240 you know, there's we all have causes and conditions that 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.439 made us who we are. And if we're you know, 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.360 committing serious sexual violence, I can bet that the conditions 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:21.520 weren't very good, right, So what do we do about that? UM? 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.840 I think that we have to make some determination to 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.879 blame worthin us. But I think we also have to 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:32.240 have a wide view about how we can make the 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.119 world a better place, and some of it has to 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:38.879 do with, um, making people's upbringings better. One of the 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.760 researchers who I really like, Richard Tromblay, He was very 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:47.040 interested in, you know, going back in the prevention, and 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.720 so he started with you know, severe forensic hospitals, and 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:53.879 he got a bit younger, and got two teens, and 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.360 he got two young children. And last time I talked 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.400 to him, or so him speak, UM, he was looking 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.760 at pregnant women and he was able to identify prior 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.560 to birth children who were going to be involved in 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.239 the criminals as the system and had to do with 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:17.480 the parents, um lifestyle, their substance abuse. There, you know, 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:42.119 values and behavior. We're all products of something. I'm not 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.280 sure what to do with all this information about the 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.480 factors that might make someone high or blue risk of reoffending. 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.520 Before I ended my conversation with Hansen, he wanted to 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.720 make it very clear that Vaughan isn't a typical offender. 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.679 He's an exception to the rule. Sounds the fellow that 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:05.000 you're focusing on a specificate and serious problems in multiple areas, 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.960 but that's not typical when you're talking about sex crime 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.119 and sex crimes against women. We tend to make policy 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.520 based on the worst cases. If you have a wider 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.680 range of what these cases actually look like, I think 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.320 we'll motivate towards better public policy overall. And I want 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.400 to be clear, I don't think any advant's risk factors 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:31.399 excuse his behavior in any way. But I do think 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.280 as a society we should work to reduce risk factors 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.800 like neglect and abuse that can make someone more likely 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.200 to commit these sorts of violent crimes. And I think 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.440 we need to do a better job at making sure 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.840 courts and parole boards have the information they need to 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:52.800 make informed, evidence based decisions about someone's risk of re offense. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.640 But Vaughan didn't feel like he'd gotten off easy. As 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:02.600 he told Detective Forward in and from that offense where 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:06.000 you choked the girl there and wound up with all 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.560 this happening, you were never given probation or parole conditions 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:13.159 or anything like that. Is you came to Indiana, you 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.560 were completely released. So the only thing you had to 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:21.760 do was signed up on the offender RESHI, according to 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.639 Von's twisted logic, because the woman was a prostitute, it 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:31.760 wasn't ranged locked up. Yeah, I'll beat her. I rape you, well, 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.639 I rape got standard. Y'all call it rape, but we 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:38.040 don't call it rape. And streets like you pay her. 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:44.040 So what is she p plaining about? After Vaughn was 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:48.719 released from prison in Austin, he needed somewhere to stay Texas, right, 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:51.120 offer me housing. I don't want your money. I don't 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.320 need you to give me anything. I could go get 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.959 what I wanted. It might not be the way y'all 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:58.919 want me to go get anything, but I could go 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:01.719 get it. I think it's the way most people in 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:04.560 society wasn't right. But that's why we got what a 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:08.240 trillion dollars and did because everybody, like guys that lived 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.800 in projects that we know your publics. This we call 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:13.880 him bitches. You get no respect, We'll slap you, knock 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.760 you out because you're mate. We'd rather you rob like 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.000 because kids need more health than a delt. Once you've 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:22.760 been going with a dolt, you shouldn't need any dolt. 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:27.399 Vun ended up going straight back to Gary and moving 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:31.679 in with his stepbrother, Reginald Beard. Here's Reginald talking to 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:34.920 the police shortly after Bond's arrest. You know he was 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.840 gonna do when he got out and mucket, I'm sensitive, 0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:42.119 you know what I'm saying that it's my brother. No, 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.400 I said, brother, you know you need space, crash man, 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.440 you can come here, okay. And he when he got home, 0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:51.439 he explads to me like the details of when he 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.880 went to jail for down there in Texas. Uh, he 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.879 had to register at my house. I get him light up. 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:00.800 You know, okay, what do you do when you first 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:03.800 came most here doing? When he first name well, he 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.919 really didn't go him right on that mostly watching a 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:12.640 lot of TV, eating a lot of food. Yeah, how 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:14.960 does behavior mens? Just's been out of jail. I mean, 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:17.240 what do you I was having when you first came 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:23.080 from Do you have me? He started getting pressed, He 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.520 flip flops. Man. Uh. Some days he had come in 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:28.720 the house and he had spent on couch. On a 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:33.520 day he watched cartoonls, like fucking cartoonls out back day, 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:39.080 Schoopy said, and then true green one more for a while. 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:41.800 See you you know what I'm saying. And I'm alte 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:44.920