WEBVTT - Mobits Extra: How Norman Lear Changed Television

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<v Speaker 1>On Tuesday, December fifth, Norman Lear died at the great

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<v Speaker 1>old age of one hundred and one. All the superlatives

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<v Speaker 1>you've been reading about his contributions to television are justified.

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<v Speaker 1>He fused comedy with social commentary in a way no

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<v Speaker 1>one had before on TV. And here's the wonder of

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<v Speaker 1>it all, he kept it funny. There was nothing eat

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<v Speaker 1>your spinach about his shows. If you heard our season

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<v Speaker 1>two episode on television's Rural Purge of the early nineteen seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>you know how insulated from the real world television was

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<v Speaker 1>until then. No one changed that more than Norman Lear

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<v Speaker 1>by bringing in stories and characters that audiences hadn't seen

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<v Speaker 1>on TV or oftentimes in their own lives. His shows

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<v Speaker 1>weren't so much progressive as they were humane, and did

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<v Speaker 1>I mention they were funny. Personal note. I became friends

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<v Speaker 1>with Norman through his son in law, CBS News chief

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<v Speaker 1>medical correspondent and my friend doctor John Lapouch. I'll always

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<v Speaker 1>be grateful to have known Norman, to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>witness how much his family adored him, and to have

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<v Speaker 1>stood around a piano with him on New Year's Eve

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, singing I'll be seeing you, what a conscience,

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<v Speaker 1>what a heart. Here's an abbreviated version of an interview

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<v Speaker 1>I did with Norman in twenty fifteen at the Austin

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<v Speaker 1>Film Festival, where he was being honored, not long after

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<v Speaker 1>his memoir was released. I can't think of any scripted

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<v Speaker 1>comedies that generate the kind of discussion that your shows

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<v Speaker 1>did back in the seventies and eighties. Is television doing

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<v Speaker 1>something wrong?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think the kind of discussion you referred to

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<v Speaker 2>that we generated it may not be generated now. There's

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<v Speaker 2>more to do with the fact that we were new

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<v Speaker 2>at the time and there were only three networks. So

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<v Speaker 2>you were either going to watch the Roaster's ruined and

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<v Speaker 2>the Boss is coming to dinner over here, or you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to see Auncie need to really struggle with a

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<v Speaker 2>with a with a problem American families are struggling with

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<v Speaker 2>or mod or good Times or the Jeffersons.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's a that's a modest explanation.

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<v Speaker 2>That's real. I mean, I don't know about minus. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's what I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Was occurring during that time.

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<v Speaker 2>Were you thinking, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>What's another social issue that hasn't been spoken about that

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<v Speaker 1>we can address what's what's another taboo we can explore?

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<v Speaker 1>Or were you just thinking, you know what, I just

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<v Speaker 1>want to tell good stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, both we wanted to tell good stories. But I

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<v Speaker 2>advised writers to read the LA Times and also to

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<v Speaker 2>get the New York Times, and if you had the

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<v Speaker 2>time for read the Wall Street Journal to get a

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<v Speaker 2>broadering of attitudes and so forth, and come in with

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<v Speaker 2>those things that would a story make.

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<v Speaker 1>Good times, samfer and Son, the Jeffersons. Why were you

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<v Speaker 1>drawn to black characters and topics?

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<v Speaker 2>I think because on Maud, for example, esther role was

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<v Speaker 2>doing so well as Florida, it was so clear that

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<v Speaker 2>she could anchor a show. And if the network didn't

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<v Speaker 2>think she could anchor a show, on an episode of Maud,

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<v Speaker 2>we introduced her husband when he came to pick her

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<v Speaker 2>up one night. It was John Amos. And now you

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<v Speaker 2>saw a really solid couple. And now the network saw

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<v Speaker 2>that too, and in quick order they said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they may be a show with those people. Well, of

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<v Speaker 2>course that's what we were thinking. So it happened very naturally,

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<v Speaker 2>and there the understanding of realization that oh, this would

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<v Speaker 2>be the first black family. That was exciting. But it

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<v Speaker 2>was like an afterthought, and we realized, how could we

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<v Speaker 2>not realize? But it started with the talent of the performance.

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<v Speaker 1>So it happened more organically. You weren't thinking, there, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to break ground.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, it happened quite organically as a result

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<v Speaker 2>of the talents we were working with.

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<v Speaker 1>But in your book you talk about taking the train

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<v Speaker 1>into New York City when you were a kid to

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<v Speaker 1>see theater and what would happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, on the trains of New York now Haven and

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<v Speaker 2>Hartford Railroad, slipping into one hundred and twenty fifth Street, Harlem.

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<v Speaker 2>In Harlem, Yes, the tenements were like they felt like

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<v Speaker 2>they were eight feet away. They were probably thirty fee

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<v Speaker 2>They were very close. And the windows leading into the

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<v Speaker 2>apartment were, you know, for six minutes or so, very visible,

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<v Speaker 2>and life inside those windows and sometimes when the fire

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<v Speaker 2>escape outside those windows. And I used to wonder about.

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<v Speaker 1>Them, you know, who were these families?

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<v Speaker 2>Were these families, what were they thinking? What were their problems?

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<v Speaker 2>That woman, what was her favorite item of clothing? Who

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<v Speaker 2>was her favorite child? What was it? That child? What

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<v Speaker 2>did she he want to be when they grew up?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess that's a writer's.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, telling stories imagining scenarios relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I also had something in common with them. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I knew by then, when I'm sixteen seventeen years old,

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<v Speaker 2>I knew by then that as a Jewish kid, there

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<v Speaker 2>were people who hated me simply for that reason. And

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<v Speaker 2>I learned that from Father Conglin, a radio priest who

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<v Speaker 2>was a vicious anti vid wing, rapidly right wing and

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<v Speaker 2>anti Semitic, and and I understood by certainly by then

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<v Speaker 2>that black people had it worse than I had it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I had that in common. It was an affinity

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<v Speaker 2>that was important to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Later this year at the Apollo on the fortieth anniversary

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<v Speaker 1>of the premiere of The Jefferson's You're going to be

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<v Speaker 1>honored for your contribution to African American culture.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love. I'm proud of that.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that people talk to you about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what your shows meant? Does that? Has that happened a lot?

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<v Speaker 1>In particular with African American adult is It.

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<v Speaker 2>Has happened a lot. I grew up with your show.

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<v Speaker 2>My father and I we used to laugh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I never saw my father laugh like that. I hear

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<v Speaker 2>that a lot. It's so touching. And we watched it

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<v Speaker 2>as a family. We don't watch anything as a family. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>We watched Your All in a family as a family,

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<v Speaker 2>and we talked about Archie, and we talked about the

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<v Speaker 2>subject matter. And that's the thing. The one thing that

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<v Speaker 2>I think the show accomplished that I can count on

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<v Speaker 2>because I've heard it through all the years, was that

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<v Speaker 2>there are big words to me. We talked, We looked

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<v Speaker 2>at the show, and we talked. And if entertainment is

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<v Speaker 2>about anything, it's about causing people to walk out of

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<v Speaker 2>a theater and hum the tunes or talk the subject

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, the message or the content.

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<v Speaker 1>Not surprisingly, much of Norman's comedy was shaped by his childhood.

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<v Speaker 1>When he was nine years old, his father went to

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<v Speaker 1>prison for selling fake bonds. When you found out as

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<v Speaker 1>a nine year old that your father was going to prison,

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<v Speaker 1>how did that change your outlook on life?

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<v Speaker 2>I was my father was going to prison. I was bereft.

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<v Speaker 2>I adored him. I loved his zest for life. He

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<v Speaker 2>was gone. He was seen being manacled to a detective

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<v Speaker 2>walking down the steps of the courthouse. There were a

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<v Speaker 2>crowd of people in the house. My mother was selling

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<v Speaker 2>the furniture she couldn't live in shame and Chelsea, and

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<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of people, so I knew a

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<v Speaker 2>lot I didn't, And I was in that, in that condition,

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<v Speaker 2>when a neighbor or an adult sun grown guy puts

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<v Speaker 2>his hand on my shoulder and says, well, you're the

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<v Speaker 2>man in the house now, Norman, and they're there, A

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<v Speaker 2>man doesn't cry. Nine years old, I'm hearing that, And

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<v Speaker 2>sometime later I imagine that, you know, thinking about that,

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<v Speaker 2>as I thought about it often, I thought, well, teaches

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<v Speaker 2>me a lot about the foolishness of the human condition.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that fool taught me how foolish we are,

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<v Speaker 2>you know how. And also that in the most solemn

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<v Speaker 2>or tragic of moments, there is humor, because saying to

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<v Speaker 2>a nine year old in that condition, you're the man

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<v Speaker 2>that has to be as funny as anything. I know how.

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<v Speaker 1>How much like Archie Bunker was your father?

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<v Speaker 2>Not at all like Archie Bunker, except in certain attitudes.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Carol transcended anything I might have imagined my

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<v Speaker 2>father could be.

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<v Speaker 1>What was what is the first adjective that you'd use

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<v Speaker 1>to describe Archie Bunker?

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<v Speaker 2>H fearful, fearful of progress, fearful of tomorrow, fearful of God,

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<v Speaker 2>have got never able to admit it that he isn't

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<v Speaker 2>good enough for what's coming.

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<v Speaker 1>He's also lovable, oh yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Lovable in his love for family, for his family.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't like when people fixate on Archie Bunker being bigoted, saying,

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<v Speaker 1>oh he was, he was a bigot.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it doesn't cover the world, it doesn't cover him.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you wrote, created, developed a lot of these

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<v Speaker 1>roles and then cast them. The actors so often ended

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<v Speaker 1>up affecting the role itself and changing the direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the role. Sure, yeah, sure, I mean what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a head would I have had if writing all

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<v Speaker 2>in the family I had Carol O'Connor in mine. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Carol O'Connor gave me something he had that he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know he had. I remember him telling me there was

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<v Speaker 2>a cab driver that he was thinking of when he

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<v Speaker 2>read the script, and he was using that cab driver.

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<v Speaker 2>You know that his image of that cab driver is

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<v Speaker 2>he delivered his version of Archie Bunker. But his version

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<v Speaker 2>of Archie Bunker is nothing I could have had in mind.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, I wrote some words and he inhabited them.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about be Arthur and Maud. How much did

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<v Speaker 1>she affect the development of the role.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she affected enormously, and she is quite different from

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<v Speaker 2>Carol O'Connor. I knew her well. I had seen her

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<v Speaker 2>on Broadway, I'd seen her off Broadway. We had become friends.

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<v Speaker 2>So Maud was specifically written with her in mind.

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<v Speaker 1>And you have a very special relationship to that role.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that role was in a sense me in

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<v Speaker 2>the sense of her the way she was political. She

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<v Speaker 2>felt she was for me, a bleeding heart conservative in

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<v Speaker 2>the sense that you could not if you were dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with fairness and justice. She was one thousand percent progressive.

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<v Speaker 2>She would be called by anybody a liberal, But I

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<v Speaker 2>view one's protection of a First Amendment and the Bill

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<v Speaker 2>of Rights and those guarantees that we will be I

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<v Speaker 2>don't like the word tolerant. That the United States the

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<v Speaker 2>law protects our ability to be equal under the law,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a conservative for me. That's the ultimate conservative position,

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<v Speaker 2>something you will not give up on. Conservative and it's

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<v Speaker 2>and it's considered our culture.

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<v Speaker 1>The bleeding heart, it's just a mod a is a

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<v Speaker 1>bleeding our conservative. I love the theme song for Maud.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh thank the Alan.

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<v Speaker 1>Wrote, But I can never remember the last lyrics.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's mud, and then there's that that enterprising

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<v Speaker 2>arising right, ond.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, it's enterprising, never compromising.

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<v Speaker 2>Never compromising some other arising right.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, ond bomb.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>What is your favorite of the theme songs of the shows?

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<v Speaker 2>I love them? Are? I think by now moving on

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<v Speaker 2>up has become such an anthem.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's got that amazing bridge. Fish, don't fry in

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<v Speaker 1>the kitchen, beans, don't burn on the griill. Took a

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<v Speaker 1>whole lot of climb in just to get up that hill.

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<v Speaker 2>Right one dayre I really into them? Is extent, all right.

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<v Speaker 1>And let me just also say that I've noticed that

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<v Speaker 1>you handle and this is going to sound like a

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<v Speaker 1>silly compliment, but you handle adulation well. I've seen during

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<v Speaker 1>our time here people come up saying your show means

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<v Speaker 1>this to me, meant so much, and my goodness, your

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<v Speaker 1>Norman lear and you handle it very well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what it comes to mind. You see

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<v Speaker 2>a wonderful we all see a wonderful plant, and we

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<v Speaker 2>admire the plant, and it's representative of all the plants

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<v Speaker 2>we've ever seen and all of the other joyful things

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<v Speaker 2>in nature that make us feel so great. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>an expression of love of nature, our relationship to that

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<v Speaker 2>plant as we're looking at it. And and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that adulation that that that comes to me as an

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<v Speaker 2>expression of our own humanity. For humanity, it isn't me,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's well, he's a good guy, and it

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<v Speaker 2>makes me feel good, and I'm happy to tell him.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm telling the world about them. I mean, and

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<v Speaker 2>it has to be right, you know. I think that's incontrovertible.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there one question throughout your life that you've been

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<v Speaker 1>trying to answer?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the question of question is what follows this now?

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't been trying to answer it because I know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there's too much evidence that I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to find the answer. But there's something

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<v Speaker 2>exciting about that about not knowing.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be great if you went to a hereafter,

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<v Speaker 1>because so many of the great stores in your shows

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<v Speaker 1>have passed on, and if you could be reunited with them.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love that. If I could introduce, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Carol Ocanna the Bernon Shaw. Hey, Bernie, meet Carol, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like that. That would be that would be a dream