1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: What's up you guys. Welcome back to Velvet's Edge for 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: part two of our epic chat with Michael Johnson. If 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: you miss part one, go check it out. We got 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: into some wild beginnings of his career, from being discovered 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: by Lou Pearlman to growing up with In Sync and 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys. But today we are diving even deeper. We're 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: going into the emotional roller coaster that was Lou Pearlman. 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: Was he a mastermind? Was he a villain? Plus we'll 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: hear how Michael navigated the chaos and what he's working on. Now. 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: Get ready because this episode is legitimately packed with even 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: more surprises and also some behind the scenes stories, which 12 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 1: we love. Here's our conversation. I think you guys did 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: a really good job actually of telling both sides of 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: the story, because not only were you guys the pawns 15 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: in like the proximity to fame, he did pick very 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: talented people, so obviously that's where the success came from. 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: But then on the flip side, like you said, they 18 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: were actually investing in a company that did not exist, 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: which was mind blowing. So it is a cautionary tale 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: because it's like what we do on social media these days, 21 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: we're all comparing to each other's like outsides or presentation, 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: and it's like, you really got to do your due 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: diligence on everyone in every situation. And this is the 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: perfect example. You've mentioned the Ponzi scheme. At the end 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: of the documentary, it says this was the longest running 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme of all time. 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 2: In American history. 28 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: In American history, that's crazy. 29 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: I want to give some numbers to that. He stole 30 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 3: five hundred million dollars from two thousand individuals and families 31 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 3: over the thirty years, and only ten million was recovered 32 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: from his cash and assets. Do you think that there's 33 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 3: money out there that he's hidden, No, like the jets 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 3: and all that, right. 35 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was so spending all he didn't have anything, 36 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: and like when we were traveling at the end of 37 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: his freedom, he was like just in a panic trying 38 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: to find the next the next dollar, the next dollar. 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: Where I was able to see his actual forgery, where 40 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: he was able to do banks out of millions of dollars, 41 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: like I witnessed him hand drawing a bank seal for 42 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: a loan document that he faxed off from the business 43 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: center of the hotel to Bank of America and he 44 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: got a million dollar loan in it. 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: Like it was just like mine. Still, what was that 46 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: in that moment? Do you remember what you felt? Do 47 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: you remember feeling like were you kind of like wait 48 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: what or did you go back into well he says 49 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: it's okay, this is fine. 50 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: That was the moment where my world kind of turned 51 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: upside down because I realized that, Okay, there's been rumblings 52 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 2: of this and a lot of the documents and contracts 53 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 2: and all this stuff, Like he was a very artistic guy, 54 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: like maybe he forged a lot of things. And then 55 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: seeing that I saw it for myself that that was 56 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: in fact the case, and obviously that is highly illegal 57 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,119 Speaker 2: to forge a loan document and actually get the money. 58 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: That was when like I was so close to him, 59 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 2: because I was I was the close like one of 60 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: the closest people to this mogul that was, in my 61 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: mind running the pop music world. And like we had 62 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: partnered up and we had just gotten the the American 63 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: rights for Top of the Pops that we were going 64 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: to start producing Top of the Pops, which was a 65 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: huge variety show in Europe in America, and like we 66 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: were working on cool stuff together. But then when I 67 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: saw that, I was like, uh yeah, my parents wouldn't 68 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: like this, So I bailed. 69 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 4: And the show. 70 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: His lawyer says, the guy who he had hired to represent, 71 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: who had represented Casey Anthony. He said, ultimately he figured 72 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 3: out that Lou was a fraudster from the moment he 73 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: woke up to the time he went to bed, but 74 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 3: also recognized that he was a genius for being able 75 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: to keep it going, Like what a shame that you 76 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: had someone at the epicenter making it happen, who was 77 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: brilliant enough to cont of smart people out of money. 78 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 4: What a shame that he wasn't doing it for good, you. 79 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: Know, Like he clearly had the skills in place to 80 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: recognize talent, to know like people to go to to say, hey, 81 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 3: look at this shiny object I have. This will be great, 82 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: and it fucking worked. But he was a scoundrel on 83 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 3: the inside, and it's it just makes me sad, like 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: being someone that also works in the music industry, like 85 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 3: he got to live my dream by fucking people over 86 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 3: and that's just not my m Oh. You know, I 87 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: would rather not succeed than to have to like sleep 88 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,239 Speaker 3: with one eye open. 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: Well, well that's the thing. Like you you manage artists, 90 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: and obviously you know the work that goes into managing 91 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: one single artist, like you're not ever off the clock. 92 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: And imagine also then running one of the biggest PONDI 93 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 2: schemes in world history. 94 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 4: Sep Like, I'm like, how did he sleep? 95 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: He hardly ever slept, But like it was just like 96 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: all the people that I know, like in the top 97 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: level music industry that managed massive artists and stuff, there 98 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: is no extra time to do something like to do 99 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: something like this. And one thing that a lot of 100 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: people have asked of like was he doing this by 101 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: himself and all that stuff? Like the thing that frustrates 102 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: me the most is that there were so many enablers, 103 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: like from like the politics world and like the business world, 104 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: and like he was very close with the sheriff. He 105 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: was like super close with the attorney general, and like 106 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: where I'm getting with this is one of the people 107 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: that was like kind of laundering money through his companies. 108 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: Turns out, before everything came crumbling down is a guy 109 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: named Lev Parness who is now super tied into like 110 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 2: the the Ukraine Juliani Trump thing and like now finally 111 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: being exposed for like all that fraudulent stuff. And I 112 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: was friends with him and I didn't realize he was 113 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: laundering money through loose companies. But like the people that 114 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: Lou attracted were people that could barely afford to invest, 115 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: but also some of like the more sinister people of 116 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: the world that saw Lou as an opportunity, right, like 117 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: everybody did. Everybody kind of looked at Lou as like 118 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: this opportunity to get to where they wanted to go. 119 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: And it wasn't always the best people. 120 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, a get rich quick scheme for the people that 121 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: were investing, and then evil finding evil on the side, 122 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: that's actually the ones they're making the money or stealing it. 123 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: I have a question though, because the sense that I 124 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: got in the documentary or in the series, was it 125 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: necessarily that he came across as evil? Was it confusing 126 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: as Chips describing him. I was thinking to myself, was 127 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: that it that he was really this super bad guy? 128 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: Or do you think that he had intention of paying 129 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: people back and got in over his head and then 130 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: couldn't get out of it kind of thing, like which 131 00:06:58,640 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: kind of person was he? 132 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: You have to have some sort of twisted mind to 133 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: even think to approach life this way. But I do 134 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: think he as tough as it is to have gone 135 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: through this whole process and come out the other end. 136 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: I do think he meant well, yeah, and I think 137 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: that he thought he was going to be able to 138 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: make everybody a boatload of money and have hit this 139 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: community and family that he always dreamt about having. He 140 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: just could never catch up to the crime he just 141 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: had just committed, and he just was in over his 142 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: head in a way that he just had to keep 143 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: doubling and tripling down and the snowball just got way 144 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: too big for him to be able to manage. And 145 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: also because he was dabbling in industries that take a 146 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: lot of knowledge and a lot of skill and a 147 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: lot of like know how, especially in the entertainment business, 148 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: where it's not like any other business in the world, 149 00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: and you have to know what you're doing, and he 150 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: just had no clue, so that his terrible business deals 151 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: that he did just led him down a darker and 152 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: darker hole with every every deal he did, so it 153 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: was inevitable that it was going to come crashing down. 154 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: I can't believe that it lasted as long as he did, 155 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: and his presence is still felt in pop culture everywhere 156 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: in the world, even like blanking on the guy's name now, 157 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: but the guy that like did K pop, Maybe you 158 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: guys know the guy's name. 159 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah that guy. 160 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: He has even said an interview, is like he basically 161 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 2: followed Lo's formula, and it's just like his presence in 162 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: his like that part of his genius is still felt today. 163 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: And those bands influenced people like Justin Bieber, Brittany probably 164 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: influenced Taylor Swift and all these people, And it's just 165 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: like the positivity that came out of something so is 166 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: something that I just I've never seen or heard of before, 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: which is why I just like fought for years to 168 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: get this thing made because I was like, this is 169 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: a very unique thing that oh yeah, it has never 170 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: happened before and should never happen before. So like it's 171 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: both a celebration of the music and the positivity, a 172 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: cautionary tale about the dark side and hopefully this will 173 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: never happen again. 174 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. What was your experience like after finding out, because, 175 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: as you say in the series, you literally were on 176 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: the run from the FBI with Lou not knowing that 177 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: of course, but when you started to figure it out, 178 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: when you had that moment when he was drawing the 179 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: bank seal and you were like, I got to get 180 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: out of here. What was that flight home? Like, like 181 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: what were you thinking about? And how do you come 182 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: to terms with all of these different emotions that we've addressed, 183 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: like the back and forth of who he is being 184 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: confused about, like is he good? Is he bad? What 185 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: was that like? 186 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: Well it was first class? Yeah, yeah, it turns out 187 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 2: Valume is free in Bali, And but I didn't know 188 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: everything yet, Like it took years and years, over a 189 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: decade to really understand what actually happened. I just knew 190 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: that the guy that was one of my most trusted 191 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: friends and like at that time a business partner, was 192 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: up to something shady and that like it just has 193 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: nothing to do with me or my life or my 194 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: family or like anything that I would ever want to 195 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 2: be involved in. So I knew I just had to leave. 196 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: And that was like before he got arrested. I still 197 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: didn't know at that time that he was like had 198 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: been indicted, and it took a little while. I just 199 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: like three days after I got back that I got 200 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 2: a call from the FBI saying that he had been arrested. 201 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: And I thank my lucky stars every day that I 202 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 2: was not there when that happened, because that would have 203 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: been even harder to explain. But I was interrogated in 204 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: all that stuff, and his mind worked in a way 205 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: that he never allowed anybody to really know what was 206 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 2: going on. And it was only after he was arrested 207 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: and like the court cases were happening and he kind 208 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: of admitted in court that he had done something wrong 209 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: that I really started like digging into what really happened. 210 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: Because when we were in Bali ship, you're gonna, You're 211 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: gonna leve this, he had me film him pitching his 212 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: life story to Philip Seymour Hoffman to play him in 213 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: a biopic. 214 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 4: I could see that, Yeah, I could see it. 215 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: And like I shipped the tape off to UH to 216 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 2: Philip's agent, and at that time Lou gave me his 217 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: life rights to tell his life. 218 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 4: Story and do that on films. So you have the 219 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 4: documentation of it. 220 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: Oh, I have all the documents and everything. Yeah, yeah, 221 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: So I got that beat, like before he had got 222 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: a jail and everything. So having that and like being 223 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 2: so close to the story. I was like, I got 224 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: to figure out what actually happened here, and like what 225 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: happened that caused this pop culture thing that I was 226 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: a part of. And so I started digging in right away, 227 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: and I stayed in touch with him and when he 228 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: was in prison, to just stay in touch and like 229 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: try to figure out see if he would like cop 230 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: to whatever he had done, and he never did. That's 231 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: when I really started digging into the story and like 232 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: trying to get all the FBI documents, all the court documents, 233 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: all of everybody's like personal records that worked closely with him, 234 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: and it just took forever to put all that stuff together, 235 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 2: Like we have I think sixteen thousand something documents and 236 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: over ten thousand hours of archival footage, and it's madness 237 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: how complex this was. 238 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 3: I don't know if this story could have been told 239 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 3: any sooner, because you were able to employ AI to 240 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 3: take footage of actual footage of him, and then obviously 241 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 3: it had to be reworked where the mouth matched what 242 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 3: he was saying. 243 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 4: I didn't know that, Yeah, it says it at the 244 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 4: very beginning. 245 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: So if you miss that, like you don't know so 246 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 3: the words that he's saying are his words that they 247 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: pulled from his book, so nothing was made up. But 248 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 3: has there been any backlash to that? 249 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: Of course? Yeah. 250 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 3: I mean, look, AI is a very scary thing, but 251 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: it's also a very useful tool when it's used properly. 252 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: And you know, I would imagine if he were still alive, 253 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 3: he would try to fight that he never said that stuff, 254 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: but it's in writing. 255 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, book in one of the biggest things. Like 256 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: in a lot of documentaries there's like recreations that there's 257 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 2: an actor and whatever, but he was such a specific 258 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: person that we felt that shooting recreations and things like 259 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: that would have taken you out of the story. And 260 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: we were at a place where the technology existed to 261 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: use AI to actually bring his actual words to life. 262 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: And I've been called deplorable and embarrassing and everything else 263 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: under the sun for using AI. And this was actually 264 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: the very first time on Netflix that video and audio 265 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: AI was used, and for the most part, it was 266 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: accepted and a lot of people were like, oh my god, 267 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: that's an amazing way. It's an amazing way to use 268 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: that tool. Because we had the rights, we didn't we 269 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: didn't change a period to a question mark. We used 270 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: it exactly like it was in his book. We used 271 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: an actor to deliver the lines and that we used 272 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: AI to convert the voice, and we used actual footage 273 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: of Lou. We lined up his body language with the 274 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: new dialogue. So it was a very like tedious process 275 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: and I always say like it was as analog as 276 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: AI could be, because it wasn't just like a text 277 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: to video type of thing. It was we really went 278 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: through and made sure we did it as ethically as possible. 279 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: For me, it was exciting to be able to use 280 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: that tech. Like the words in his book, they become 281 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: red once you know the truth. So we wanted viewers 282 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: to experience his words delivered by him so that you 283 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: could see the reality that he was living in kind 284 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: of part ways with reality that everybody else was living in. 285 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: So that that was that was exciting to us to 286 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: kind of like he was artificial, you know what I mean, 287 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: he was fake, so like using that technology to deliver 288 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: words that were total bs, but with the word his 289 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: truth and his reality. We just wanted people to experience 290 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: that and not have to like cut to an actor 291 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: or cut to like a dark room with like somebody's 292 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: hand forging stuff. 293 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: He did say there was one line that I loved 294 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: where it was like how long will this thing go on? 295 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: And he's like, as as there's young girls in the world, 296 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: which you know, spoke to his the psychosis of like 297 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: him knowing that he had to keep this going forever. 298 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: Right, it is creepy for a like an overweight old 299 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: man to say just even say that, say the little girls, 300 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: but that that was what he always said of like 301 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: this will end when God stopped making little girls, and 302 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: until then, it's never going to be over. And he's right, 303 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: like incorrect, yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's like my my 304 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: goddaughter loves these bands like that. It just keeps happening. 305 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: And like the influence of what lou is doing is 306 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: now seen in paypop, which girls across the world are 307 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: obsessed with. It's just it is the case where like 308 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: this sort of formulaic, hatered delivery of young adolescent guys, 309 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: it just works, and I think it'll work forever. It's 310 00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: it's never not worked. 311 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: That is where he is truly a visionary because he 312 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: knew that, like so then he knew how to manipulate 313 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: the people. And I personally, I was going to say, like, 314 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that was Ai, but I do think 315 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: that because you've used that, it did give the confusion 316 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: about him in the right way, because, like I was saying, 317 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: in the series, it presents as like he kind of 318 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: seems likable and lovable, and like I would have followed 319 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: him too, like look at all this stuff that he 320 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: was presenting. And again, the presentation was everything because you 321 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: just buy in immediately. 322 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: I say to a lot of people, if he was 323 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: on this podcast right now, you would be enamored. I 324 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: love him already, know, Yeah, it's just still wild. Yeah, 325 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: speaking to his formula and this is like Stone nineties, 326 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: which is like me through and through. But like he 327 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: took the shopping mall formula of like, okay, twenty percent 328 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: of young girls like the guy that shops at the 329 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: sporting good store twenty percent, like the guy that shops 330 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: at like American Eagle twenty percent, like the guy that 331 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 2: shops at Hot Topic or whatever. And that was the 332 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: formula of like, Okay, if you have five guys and 333 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 2: each one represents a different type of fan, you're going 334 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: to cover the damn it. So yeah, and that was 335 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: just and you had to stick to your type. 336 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god. My friends and I were like, are 337 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: you Justin? Are you JC? Like I mean and I isolated. 338 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: I've oscillated because I mean, you can't not love Justin. 339 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: It's so talented. Thank you. 340 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 4: I appreciate that show. 341 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: But jc's voice was always my favorite. I loved his 342 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: voice back in the day, and he was probably a 343 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: little more age appropriate for me. 344 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: Okay, right, So it does seem like you're in syncover Backstreet. 345 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: That's about one hundred percent, And I think that that 346 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: says a lot about a person's personality. You can tell 347 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: what a person is all about if you know they're 348 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: in sync or Backstreet, which is again like think about 349 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: the impact of that. That literally tells me everything I 350 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 1: need to know about a person. And that's still lou 351 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: Pearlman's whole creation. 352 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and and also, like his AI version of 353 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: himself says in the series, he created his Pepsi to 354 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 2: his cot, like he created the Burger King to the McDonald. 355 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: It's like he created the competition for his own. 356 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 4: The Facebook. 357 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, like somebody's gonna do it as well, brilliant. Yeah, yeah, 358 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: and yeah, it was like there's always been like there's 359 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: been the rolling Stones and There's and the Beatles like 360 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: One's edgy or One's more clean cut, just like it 361 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: was a genius moment in time and and it also 362 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: as as a visionary creating something like making the Band, 363 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: which was like the first reality competition show on a 364 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: major network ever, and that thinking and that that forward 365 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: thinking was just like actually it was. It was on 366 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: a week before Survivor, which was the first major network 367 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: UH reality series, so technically it was the first major 368 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: network reality series. But his future thinking was just second 369 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: to none. And with everything happening with Diddy, I was like, 370 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: like loose old making the band too Diddy, I was 371 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: like for making the band like anybody. 372 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: Was right, they have a toxic past. 373 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. It was like, oh boy. He was always 374 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 2: kind of just so forward thinking and just saw talent 375 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: and saw saw things that nobody else did and it 376 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 2: worked for him. 377 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 4: He also was really some good at stealing. 378 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people like what he was 379 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 3: doing on that angle was I'm not smart enough to 380 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 3: figure out how to do that, and I feel like 381 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 3: a pretty smart guy. 382 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: Like I feel like he was a combination of like 383 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: Bernie Madeoff and Clive Davis usually there's only like you're 384 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: only doing one of those things quite not usually like 385 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: once in a generation you're doing the things, and then 386 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: throw in like Howard Hughes or something into that. It's 387 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: just like so bizarre complex guy. It was a bit 388 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 2: I don't know. I was conflicted when he was in prison, 389 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: because I was like, can't they just put his brain 390 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: to use to like do some good and like let 391 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 2: him just like. 392 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 4: Try figuay people back too. 393 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And like he was he was trying to 394 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: start bands from prison, and I would get like these 395 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: weird contracts that he had like done with these guys 396 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: around the world that I was supposed to manage with 397 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: his guidance in prison, and I was like, I'm not 398 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: doing that, no, thank you. Until the day he died, 399 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: he never quit. And even like the FBI was like, 400 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: if you allow somebody like that to try to make 401 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: it up to people, it could go sideways, the money 402 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: making it. 403 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: I thought, I was like, Okay, make him be a 404 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: bigger crook to pay people well bag you know, that's 405 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: how he would do it. 406 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: So yeah, And it took me a long time to 407 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: realize like for what he did, he belonged in prison. 408 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 2: As sad as it is that he died in prison. 409 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: You can't do that to people and not have accountability 410 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: and repercussions. So but yet, as you said, earliership that 411 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 2: the music lives on. 412 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 413 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so he said he never copped to what 414 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 3: he'd done. But did he ever apologize to you, like 415 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: for putting you? 416 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: Wow? 417 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: No, that would have made admitting it right. 418 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's a sociopathic like he. I mean, 419 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 3: he probably believed that he wasn't doing anything wrong. 420 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like he was a narcissistic sociopath at 421 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: the end of the day. He believed what he was 422 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: saying to people and what he was selling. I didn't 423 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: even really stop to think about the fact that he 424 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: like really put my life in danger until like we 425 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: were like making the series and he had been passed 426 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: away for a while. But I visited him in a 427 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: few times to like really push him and like try 428 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: to get him to like open up and tell like 429 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: the ins and outs of the Super Dark Side that 430 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: I had already seen a bit of. I just I 431 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: wanted some more detail. It was as if he was 432 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted. He was the victim until the end, and 433 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: it was just like so weak and so I just 434 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: like it made me lose more and more respect for 435 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: him as that continued to happen, So it made me 436 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: less hesitant to actually tell the story. Yeah, if you're 437 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: not going to control the narrative or even like try, 438 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: then I'm gonna actually get to the bottom of what 439 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 2: happened and tell the real story. 440 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: Well, there's so many layers this story. If you guys 441 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: have not watched Dirty Pop on Netflix yet, I highly 442 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: recommend it. I've watched it twice, by the way, and 443 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: I both times it's fascinating. 444 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 3: You know, we started saying, like we've known each other 445 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 3: for thirteen years. I did not know that my po 446 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 3: had been working on this the whole time until he 447 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 3: started posting that it was coming. And think about the 448 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 3: amount of hours again, and we've worked on some other things, 449 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 3: like we tried to do a reality show about some 450 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 3: kids here in Nashville. So we've like we have been 451 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: in contact, and not once did he tell me that 452 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 3: the depth of what he was working on, and having 453 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: watched it twice, like, dude, I fucking commend you. Like, yeah, 454 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 3: the amount of work that went into telling that story, 455 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: so honestly and clearly is so remarkable. 456 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 4: So congratulations. 457 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate it immensely. And it wasn't that I 458 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: was like hiding it. It was just something that was like, 459 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 2: it's like, so it's something that's so bizarre to talk about, yeah, 460 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: and like it's it's an unbelievable story. So like until 461 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: people are watching it and like have corroborating people talking 462 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 2: about it, I just shut up about it and like 463 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 2: put my head down and worked. I hope that people 464 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: feel the ex of the rise of these bands through 465 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: the telling of the crime story as well, because that 466 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: was really important to me, because I wanted the bands 467 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: to continue to get their shine and show that they 468 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: their success is due to the hard work that they 469 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: put in. It wasn't all given to them. There was 470 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: support from the money that came from the crimes, but 471 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 2: unless all these bands did the hard work, it never 472 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: would have happened. And it's just like the rise of 473 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: these bands was like so exciting, and I just I 474 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: wanted people to feel that as they were also learning 475 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: about the dark crimes and mob ties and Nazeason and 476 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: everything else I. 477 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: Have to tell you, learning about the fact that Backstreet 478 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: Boys had turned down that Disney Special and then in 479 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: Sync took it. That was where I found them, So 480 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, pace of it. Finding the 481 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: backstory was fascinating to me. So I think you did 482 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: a really good job of telling the story of the band. 483 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: And like we said, I do think Lou had an 484 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: eye for real talent. I mean, all of you guys 485 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: multi talented. It wasn't like he was just grabbing people 486 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: off the streets and just throwing them together. It was 487 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: people with legitimate talent that should be musicians. He just 488 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: happened to be kind of shady behind the scenes with it. 489 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and what's funny is like I learned the 490 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 2: filmmaking television world back then with him too, with like 491 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: the TV shows that we're all working on and like 492 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 2: music videos that we were producing together, and so like 493 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: producing music videos, producing documentaries, producing reality stuff. I started 494 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: learning that when I was like eighteen, and now I 495 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 2: was able to like flex that storytelling muscle in the 496 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: making of this documentary. So it's like an extension of 497 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: the artistry that was learned through the whole process that 498 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: was just like almost like. 499 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: Totering how to tell his story exactly. 500 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's where I learned how to make film 501 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: and television. 502 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 4: There's always a silver lining, yeah, exactly. 503 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: So what's next you. 504 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 2: I have a project that actually just won the Nashville 505 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: Film Festival this last weekend. It's a narrative project called Neodome. Okay, 506 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 2: it's like a post apocalyptic like takes place twenty years 507 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: after the Crash of America, which I hope is far 508 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: in the distance exactly, but it's kind of like a 509 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: metaphor for like the new American dream and like the 510 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: rat race of capitalism and things. But that stars my 511 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: girlfriend Anna Camp and Michael Mosley and Nick Logan who 512 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 2: are incredible actors, And we won south By Southwest this 513 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: year and a few other festivals, and we're turning that 514 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: into a feature film. Also my passion project, which when 515 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: I say the name and knowing it's a passion project, 516 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: you're going to question my sanity. But it's a project 517 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: that follows like the cultural events called the Testicle Festival. 518 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I'm supposed to go to Montana in a 519 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 3: couple of weeks to start shooting. 520 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: And it's a like a cultural arts and music festival 521 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: where people to get together and eat deep fried animal testicles, 522 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: and they call them rocky Mountain oysters. But it's like 523 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: this subculture of people that these festivals are a chance 524 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: to like allow them to like let their freak flags fly, 525 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: like no matter what walk of life, if they're like 526 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: living in the backwoods cabins or they're successful attorneys. It 527 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: just these events, for some reason allow people to just 528 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: let loose and let their their inner cells come out, 529 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: we'll say. And some has led to some very tragic events, 530 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: and other are just very uplifting stories of music and 531 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: culture and and like this very unique brand of American 532 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: I'll say that. 533 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: To have you back on to talk about that. 534 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: Well, you know what's funny is this weekend I was 535 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 3: out on the road with Elle and she played in 536 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 3: Fort Worth and she went out to dinner. We had 537 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 3: done a baby reveal that day privately in the green room, 538 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 3: and then she and her fiance were like, I wanted 539 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: to go just like sort of have a date night 540 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 3: before the show and process their emotions and all the things. 541 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 4: And then they come back with them to. 542 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 3: Go food and she's like, you guys have to try this, 543 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: and it was fucking fried balls, and I was like 544 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 3: she was being she was being weird enough that I 545 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: knew she was trying to get me to eat testicles. 546 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 4: But then her fancy was. 547 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: Like, typically what went through your brain? 548 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 3: Was like I was like, this is definitely a fried 549 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 3: ball or brain or something. And her fiance was like, 550 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: I mean, I'll eat one and just ate it. And 551 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 3: I was like okay, and I like bit into it 552 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 3: and it was like, I mean the flavor was good. 553 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 3: I didn't swallow any of it, like it was really 554 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: it was really soft. So I was like, is this 555 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 3: brainer balls? And they were like, it's testicals and I 556 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 3: was like, and I throw it away, but yeah, it's people. 557 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: It's yeah, it's. 558 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: It's a thing. It like it's so weird that like 559 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: that is the thing that like these festivals have been 560 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: created for that like just bring out the most crazy 561 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: things in these people. And it's something I've been following 562 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: for like fifteen years and I've been to a few 563 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: of them, and like there was some some tragedy that 564 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: happened at one in uh in Montana. There stabbings and 565 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: a missing kid and all all crazy stuff. But it's 566 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: like it's just now they've expanded there. They're popping up 567 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: everywhere in the country, and it's just like there's something 568 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: very heartfelt about it and just so bizarre that I 569 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, this is my next project. I'm doing 570 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: it in that so I'm starting next month. 571 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 3: Wow. 572 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 4: I just googled it. It looks like this. 573 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: You know. 574 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 3: Montana State University is who hosts it, and it's a 575 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 3: charity event. 576 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: That one is yeah, got it? There was There was 577 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: There was one in Clinton, Montana that was the. 578 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 4: More stay yeah exactly. 579 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: I mean, from pop music to eating balls, I just can't. 580 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: Oh. 581 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: Well, Like I said, if you guys have not watched 582 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: Dirty Pop yet, go check that out on Netflix. Michael, 583 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here with us. This 584 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: was fascinating. 585 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: Thank you very very happy to have joined you. Great 586 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: to see you. 587 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: All Right, you guys go check out that and we 588 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: will report back about the what do we call this. 589 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: If you want to be proper festival? 590 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: Okay, that's good, that's the abbreviation. All right, Thank you 591 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: guys for listening.