1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. 2 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg. 3 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: Now Meldonna Hirich across asset reporter with Bloomberg. 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: And this week on the show, Well Weil Donna. You 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: know what I always say, one of the best perks 6 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: of being a journalist is that you get to meet 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: these very smart people and ask these very smart people 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: some dumb questions. Yes, one of the being a journalist, 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: and what's great about working at Bloomberg is we have 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: so many very smart people just sitting a few rows away. 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can chitchat with them whenever we feel 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: like it. 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: And ask them dumb questions. 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: So many dumb questions, and they give us smart answer 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: smart answers. 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: That's right. There are no dumb answers, just dumb questions. 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 2: Just for me and you, I think, yeah, yeah. 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Well you can have a smart answer to a dumb 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: question if I've learned anything from Mad magazine. 21 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: But anyway, I think, as you're talking about our guests, right, 23 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: I am talking about our Yes, yes. 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have him he is. Can I 25 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: say he's famous in our circles. Absolutely, yeah, Yeah, he's 26 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: a big deal our guest this week. He is famous 27 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: in our circles. We all talk about him in the 28 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: nicest possible ways. 29 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: The suspense. 30 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: I know, I'm dragging this out, like I want people 31 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: at home listening to be like, who is it? It's 32 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: no other than Matt Levine, our colleague and Bloomberg opinion columnists. 33 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: And I'm so happy to have him on the show. 34 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me. Okay, 35 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: The New York Times famously wrote about you a couple 36 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: of years ago. They don't typically profile financial newsletter writers. 37 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: I don't think so it was a big deal. But 38 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: maybe we can just start with you telling us like 39 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: how did you become a columnist at Bloomberg. 40 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: Well, I was a lawyer a long time prior to that. 41 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: I left law for investment banking because it was two 42 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: thousand and seven and if you were a corporate lawyer, 43 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 3: it felt like the sort of right thing to do 44 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: is to get into finance. And I didn't really know 45 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 3: much about like the financial industry, like what people did 46 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: all day. Someone offered me a job at Goldman and 47 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: I was like, well that seems like it can't hurt. 48 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: And I did it for like four years, like structuring 49 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 3: equity derivatives for corporate clients, and I learned a lot 50 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 3: and like it was fun and interesting, but over time 51 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 3: you like learn less and become more of a like 52 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: just salesperson, like at senior levels. The job is like 53 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: you get on planes and fly around to clients and 54 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: make small talk and try to convince them to do deals. 55 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 3: And I was much less good at that, and so 56 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: I was kind of tired of it, and I wanted 57 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: to get out. And I'd always vaguely imagined being a 58 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: writer without ever doing anything about it, and so I 59 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: wanted to leave Goldman at the same time that a 60 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: job was opening up a deal Breaker, which is this 61 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: small like finance and comedy blog that I was reading religiously, 62 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: as was everyone on Wall Street two thousand and eleven 63 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: when I was leaving, and so I applied and they 64 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: hired me, and I sort of took a leap of 65 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: faith and went to do that. And I did that 66 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: for a couple of years, and then eventually Bloomberg. 67 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: Noticed me, and thank god they noticed you. 68 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: Well, it does give you such a unique perspective both 69 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: the law background and the sort of derivatives background at Goldman, 70 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: It really puts you in a great position to do 71 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: what you do and analyze basically the news flow. But Matt, 72 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: my first question for you is what is the total 73 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: market value of pepperoni in the United States in any 74 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: given year? 75 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: So I read about this the other day because this 76 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 3: guy like did this cacamami calculation for his consulting firm, 77 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: which I thought was so wonderful because this is a 78 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: stereotypical question, like there's some like just random thing and 79 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: that you get to a consulting interviewer, like you've asked 80 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: some random question about like how many washing machines there 81 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: are in the United States. Right, They just like to 82 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 3: try to like judge your thought process. 83 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: It was an intern, right, wasn't an intern? 84 00:03:59,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? He was an inn. 85 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: Anyway. 86 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: He had like heard somewhere like a Pepperoni CEO saying 87 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: we sell enough pepperoni to blanket the entire US and 88 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: in a thin layer of pepperoni, And so he did 89 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: that math. And if you do that math, you get 90 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: like the market for pepperoni is larger than entire economy 91 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: of the world for the entire history of the world, 92 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 3: Like more pepperoni is sold in a year than all 93 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: goods and services sold in the world in all of 94 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: human history. 95 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 2: It's probably true, right, I don't know. 96 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: You can go to the Domino's website and probably get 97 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 3: most of what you need to know. Yeah, it's like 98 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: two dollars that pepperoni to a pizza and they sell 99 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 3: like a million pizzas a day, and then you're kind 100 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: of in the ballpack. 101 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: Or Hormel's earnings transcripts. Maybe I don't know. 102 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: I like who sells pepperoni. 103 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: I don't even know, Like figure Hormel I think is 104 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: the main But I like computing the entire square inch 105 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: the United. 106 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: States, Right, that's just like if you think about that 107 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: for a moment, like the United States has not covered 108 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: wall to wall and cows or anything like it, Like 109 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: not even one percent of the land in the US 110 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: is covered by gues and so like you'd really need 111 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 3: to like squish kas pretty thin to make that much pepperoni. 112 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: Anyway, I don't know. Anyway, I forgot a lot about this. 113 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: For one, I know you did. That's why I forget. 114 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: I think it was two quadrillion dollars. Was the addressable. Yeah, right, 115 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: But I bring it up because that is That's what 116 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: Matt's so good at, is like finding some random financial 117 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: news story and really dissecting it and unpacking. 118 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: It and u and teaching us all how things work 119 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: or how they were done, or how the calculations. 120 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: Happened, how the pepperoni's made. 121 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: Okay, but I'm so interested. As Mike said, that's a 122 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: really good example of a recent story that you did 123 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: that was really fun and fun for people to read. 124 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: Your entire column every day is some dissecting some very 125 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: very interesting story or aspect of something that's happening in markets. 126 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: I'm curious about your process, like what do you do? 127 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: Where do you look for these stories? Do people send 128 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: them to you? I've always been so curious about how 129 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: this worked, and I'm obviously trying to rip you off. 130 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: I go to a little website I like to call 131 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot com. No, I mean, like I don't know, 132 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 3: like probably seventy five percent of what I write about 133 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 3: is stuff that is kind of recognizably in the financial news. 134 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: Stuff that's like on the front page of Bloomberg or 135 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal or the Ft or Delburg are 136 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 3: often all of them, and so like there's no like 137 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 3: particularly interesting process for finding like the big stories people 138 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 3: sent me stuff, and there's there's stuff that I'm just 139 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: like attuned to. Like I have a genre of stories 140 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: called everything is securities fraud, which is where public companies 141 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: do like random bad things and people sue them for 142 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 3: securities fraud, like anything from like sexual harassment to like 143 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 3: animal welfare stuff to pollution to it. Now there's a 144 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 3: lot of like anti Dei backlash where Republicans have gotten 145 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: into the game of suing companies for securities fraud because 146 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: they like use transgender influencers in advertising and all that 147 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 3: stuff gets a certain amount of media coverage. But to me, 148 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: it's like indicative of this like really big interesting trend 149 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,559 Speaker 3: in like American securities laws, where like all conduct gets 150 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 3: reflected through through like the notion of securities fraud because 151 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: it is easy to bring cases and like the damages 152 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 3: can be really large and so you can like litigate, 153 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: you can fight over all sorts of like political and 154 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 3: social issues by calling them securities fraud. I think that's 155 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: like really weird and interesting, and so each individual case 156 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: might be kind of dumb, but like the theme is 157 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: big and interesting, so you do get some of that. 158 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: Occasionally people will be like, I'm sure at this company 159 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 3: you should write about how they're bad, and like sometimes 160 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: that's annoying and ignore it. And sometimes it's like, oh, 161 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 3: this is a really funny company. I tell people that 162 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: my favorite email to gain or my favorite like IB 163 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: messages to gat is you will enjoy this eight K 164 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: because like that has like one hundred percent hit rate 165 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: because like someone who sends me that message one knows 166 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: what an eight K is. So if someone sends me 167 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 3: an aking it's a funny AK, it's probably funny EK, 168 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: and I will probably enjoy it. I am a columnist 169 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: and I don't do a lot of like you know, 170 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: breaking of news, and so when someone's like, oh you 171 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: should look into this company they're really scammy, I'm like, yeah, okay, 172 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: but like who I got a call to confirm that, right. 173 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: Whereas like if someone's like, look at this ak, like 174 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: the funny thing is like there in the public domain, 175 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 3: publicly filed, it's sort of right in my wheelhouse to. 176 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: Write about, Yeah, what's the funniest AK you ever read? 177 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 3: It's not an eight K, but there's this public company 178 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: that was like this sort of like tiny, shallow of 179 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: public company was run by like one guy and he 180 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: filed like, I don't know, thirty ten cues and ten 181 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: k's like periodic reports all at once, Like he was 182 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 3: way behind on the on the annual filings for his company, 183 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 3: and so he filed them all at once. And they 184 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: were just like complaining about how hardy was working, like 185 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: all of this stuff was like mister so and so 186 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 3: it gets no support and he's doing all these ten 187 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: cues by hand, and they were very like there's a 188 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: range of public companies and most of their filings are 189 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: sort of carefully loyal, lured and sensible, and then at 190 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: the far tael there's a lot of very weird stuff. 191 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: What I find fascinating is, you know, you've always kind 192 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: of focused on some of the absurdities of finance and 193 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: the markets, but I feel like the markets are getting 194 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: more and more absurd and more more and more Matt 195 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: Levine esque as as the years go on. And I'll 196 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: give you an example. You know, you're talking about securities fraud. 197 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: One of my favorite columns of years recently was about 198 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: Ryan Cohen, who is the meme stock He basically he 199 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: was long bed, Bath and beyond, right, and uh to 200 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: some big amount of dollar amount. And they tweeted. Someone 201 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: tweeted something about bad, Bath and Beyond, and he replied 202 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: with a funny quip and he included the moon face emoji, 203 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: which I'm that and to your point, Matt, I think 204 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: in the commn I've never even seen that emoji before. 205 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: I don't think it translates to every device. 206 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: Like everyone who was calling it the moon face the emotion, 207 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 3: and I looked at it, like it's a smiley face. 208 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: Apparently it's a moon. 209 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: I thought it was a smiley face too. 210 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: Actually it's just a smiley face. But like there's like 211 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: if you like hover over it, it says it's a muonomiji. Anyway, Yeah, 212 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: he treated this moon emigi, which I guess in like 213 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 3: the code of memestacks means that the stock will go 214 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: to the moon. And then he sold the stock like 215 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: the next day, basically like two days later. Yeah, And 216 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 3: so they sued him for securities for i'd saying that 217 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: he was telling people to buy even as he was telling. 218 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's all funny and it's absurd and it's 219 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: fun to talk about because that. But I feel like 220 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: there's a bigger issue. Let me just read a couple 221 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: of lines from your column. You said, back in the 222 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: olden days, I learned that securities fraud meant lying about 223 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: things that would be material to quote a reasonable investor. 224 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: But in the world of memestocks, there are no reasonable investors. 225 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: What matters is not cash flows or business plans, but 226 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: memes and influencers, and so the standards for fraud are 227 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: perhaps different. 228 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: You know, I think it's reasonable to say, to a 229 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 3: large extent, the memestock was a phenomenon of a particular 230 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: macroeconomic and also social environment where like people were stuck 231 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: at home. They were Yeah, Robinhood had sort of recently, 232 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: like relatively reasonally come on the scene and like built 233 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: a good product for gamifying stock trading, and like people 234 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: are getting stimulus checks. There are a lot of factors 235 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: combined to allow like a bunch of retail traders to 236 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: get really into sort of irrational trading. And I don't 237 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: think that's like the main factor that is driving like 238 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 3: the price of Nvidia or whatever, or like of treasury bills. Yeah, 239 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: like that's the thing, Like, and absolutely I've spent more 240 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 3: time writing about dumber stuff than I would have five 241 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 3: years ago, and that dumber stuff is often the meme 242 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 3: stocks are crypto. 243 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm curious how you think about that. I mean crypto 244 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: obviously it's a very similar storyline. But a regulator's kind 245 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: of a sleep at the switch on policing this stuff. 246 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: Or should it be up to these PLANEFFS attorneys. Should 247 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: we just allow the markets to have this sort of 248 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: absurd element to them without really doing anything to correct it. 249 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 3: Think that regulators are not in the business for the 250 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: most part of like correcting mistakes in financial markets, right, Like, 251 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 3: if you think that people are buying stocks for irrational reasons, like, 252 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: there's not so much you can do about it, right, 253 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: And it's hard because like the regulatory paradigm has always 254 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: been in the US about disclosure, and so when you 255 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: know they're in sort of the early days of memestocks, 256 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 3: some memestocks, I think it was kind of this is 257 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 3: more or less true of Game Stop. We're nervous about 258 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 3: their sock had gone up ten ten x and they 259 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 3: needed money, and they were a little nervous about raising 260 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: money because they're like, our stock is at really weird 261 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 3: prices and it's gonna it just feels like fraud to 262 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 3: raise money, and then other memestocks were like, great, people 263 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: want to buy a stock, We're going to sell it 264 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: to them, right, And that was like AMC was big 265 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 3: on that. But also like Hurts were bankrupt and their 266 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 3: stock got mamed up, and they're like, Okay, we're selling stock. 267 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: I think they shut that down. Didn't shut that down? Yeah, 268 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: but it turns out you would have done well buying 269 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 3: the stock. But anyways, in response to the SEC basically 270 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: said you need to put out more disclosure, like if 271 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 3: you're if you are selling stock because you're a memestock, 272 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: and they phrase it differently, you know what they mean. 273 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: Then you have to put out in your perspectives like 274 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 3: we don't know why our stock is trading this high. 275 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 3: It's probably for no good reason. You probably shouldn't buy it, right, 276 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: And so like companies would do that, they like put 277 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: out a perspective saying, our stock is trading at random 278 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: prices for no reason. We don't understand it either, but 279 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: like nobody reads that. Like the whole disclosure regime just 280 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: sort of falls apart in the face of like the 281 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: memestock phenomenon because you can say whatever you want in 282 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: this perspective, but nobody is reading it or deterred by it, 283 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: and like that's the bullet that the SEC has and 284 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 3: after that, like, Okay, you want to buy it, you 285 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: buy it. 286 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 287 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 3: I think it's really hard, and I think they feel 288 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 3: obligated to say stuff and do stuff and commission reports 289 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: and like testify it in front of Congress and like 290 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: creat the impression they're doing stuff. To the extent you 291 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: diagnose the memestock phenomenon as like a bunch of people 292 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 3: online decided to be fine to buy stocks at really 293 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: high prices. It's just not something the SEC has any 294 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 3: any like authority to stop, right, And so they go 295 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: to after they talk about things that are ancillary to that. 296 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 3: There's a lot of talk about payment for order flow 297 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: and market structure and somehow you think if you change 298 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: how the stock market orders get routed, that will somehow 299 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: solve the memes. But it's had nothing to do with it, right, 300 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: It's just some people get mad about online or they 301 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: like the SEC has looked into short selling rules because 302 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 3: some of the early name stock phenomenon was about trying 303 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 3: to squeeze short sellers. But regulating short selling more harshly 304 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 3: is a strange response to that, because like the short 305 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: sellers weren't really the they were the victims there as 306 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: it were. They looked into a little bit like is 307 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: there some sort of collusive market manipulation here? And I 308 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 3: just think the answer is clearly no. Right, it's people 309 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: online saying I like the stock, so there's not a 310 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: lot they can do. And I think they're keenly aware 311 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 3: that it's embarrassing. Right if you want your capital markets 312 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: to look sophisticated and professional and driven by fundamentals, and 313 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 3: then when they're just meming around, you feel embarrassed about 314 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 3: it is it's not a it's not something they can fix. 315 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, there is this cohort of 316 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: people posting on Reddit these wild conspiracy theories to help 317 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: pump up the stock. But even with that, I'm not 318 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: sure there's a lot they can do about that. 319 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: And they regularly go after like true pumping numbers. Yeah, 320 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 3: people who are who are pumping stocks while they're selling them, 321 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: men who are lying about the fundamentals of the business. 322 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: But I think in a lot of the memestock stuff 323 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: in some combination of people who seem to be genuinely 324 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: and often like pretty well informed believers in the business, 325 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: plus like just the random enthusiasts and like they're not lying. 326 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 3: They're just like to the moon. It's not a lie, 327 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: there's nothing, there's nothing deceptive about that, And so it's 328 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: just hard, hard to police that. 329 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: When I went to see the Barbie movie, they played 330 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: the preview for the Game Stop movie. Did you know 331 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: it's coming out? 332 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: I knew there was one. 333 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: I don't even want to see it. What I love 334 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: when I read your column, and I read them every day. 335 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: I'm your number one reader. I think we Mike probably 336 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: can't say the same about himself. I read all of 337 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: them every day. I read you read all the way 338 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: through thenoe bottom, oh yeah, just in case, because sometimes 339 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: he saves like the funniest stuff for the last. 340 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 341 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: Often people would tell me they. 342 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: Read it and reverse, Oh, that's not a bad idea. 343 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: I might start doing so I can get a good 344 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: laughing At first. 345 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: I usually go in and make sure he's not making 346 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: fun of me for something. 347 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: Oh searched, Yeah, when if my yeah, you sometimes mentioned 348 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: my articles and my heart stops. I'm like, oh no, 349 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: did I do this calculation correctly? But anyway, what I 350 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: love is that you do have these recurring themes. So one, 351 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: like we were just talking about his memes talks everything 352 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: is security is fraud. Another one is proximity to Elon Musk. 353 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 3: I don't talk about that one so much because like 354 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: that magic has gone away a little bit. Like for 355 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: a while I was saying that the most important factor 356 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 3: in financial markets was not cash flows, but proximity to 357 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: Elon Musk. And what that meant is like when he 358 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: would like tweet about a word a company who's stock, 359 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 3: the company whose name was nearer to that word would 360 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: stock would go up, like fans of Elon Musk would 361 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 3: buy stuff he tweeted about. And so he really did 362 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 3: have the ability to manipulate the prices of things like 363 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 3: doage coin and to some extent Bitcoin and to a 364 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: larger extent the price of Tesla stock and a lot 365 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: of other stuff. And I thought that was fascinating in 366 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 3: part just because like I would like to have that power, 367 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: I would use it to make money. Doesn't it's not 368 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 3: clear that he ever did use it to make money. 369 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: He just sort of wanted to. 370 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: That would be securities fraud. 371 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 3: That would probably be securities for it that it depends, 372 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: but Yeah, that has dissipated a little bit. I think 373 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 3: partly because that's just a memes stock phenomenon, right, and 374 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: people who are less bored and don't have stimulus strikes 375 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: are just less interested in throwing money at whatever Elon 376 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: Musk mentions, And then partly because a lot of those 377 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 3: trades have not gone particularly well. He pumped doge coron 378 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 3: and didn't do that great for people, and he did 379 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 3: this ridiculous Twitter acquisition that I think went terribly for him, 380 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: and so he might be less inclined to just invest 381 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: with everything he's tweeting about. But I think most of like, 382 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 3: I don't think people were buying dogecoin because they thought 383 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: he had a genius investing idea in doge grain. I 384 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 3: think they were buying it because he was like a 385 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: meme king and they liked participating in the meme. And 386 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: I think that whole phenomenon has just lessened. 387 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: But what does keep happening is every time you go 388 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: on vacation, he does have like the biggest news of 389 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 2: the year, and then you are full time. 390 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 3: I was out last week and he did only a 391 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: few crazy things, including he did tweet that he was 392 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: going to drive from Mark Zuckerberg's house and beat him up, 393 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 3: which is pretty crazy, but not like core financial news 394 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 3: that I felt obligated to cover in previous vacations. He's 395 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: done things like by Twitter, and so like those I 396 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 3: have to write about even from vacation. 397 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Mett, one of your perennial themes that I've 398 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: always enjoyed. It used to be anyway, people are worried 399 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: about bond market liquidity. I don't know how many stories 400 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: we've all seen about people worried about bond market liquidity, 401 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: and then sure enough, last year we have the worst 402 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: bond market of any of our lifetimes, bear market in 403 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: all manner of bonds. I don't think I heard liquidity 404 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: blamed ones for any of it. Are those worries over? 405 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 3: I hope that I embarrassed people out of writing something, 406 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: But also I do think that like the theories, and 407 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 3: there's like two veins of bond market people are worried 408 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: about bomb market liquidity. One is just like worried about 409 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 3: bomb market liquidity. It's just there's a story of like 410 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 3: pre two thousand and eight, banks had a lot of 411 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 3: balance sheet to commit to market making and bonds, and 412 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 3: they did that by like absorbing losses and making tight 413 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 3: markets and generally making it so that if you wanted 414 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: to move a lot of bonds even into following you 415 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: could do so efficiently. And post two thousand and eight, 416 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 3: with higher capital requirements and more regulation of prop trading 417 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 3: and just less risk mapnite from banks, there's no shock 418 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: observers anymore. And now if you want to sell a 419 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: lot of bonds, you'll drive down the price by twenty 420 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 3: percent and it'll be a bloodbath. And like, I think, 421 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 3: like there's truth to that at some margin, right, But 422 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: like it used to be fairly cheap to trade bonds, 423 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: like investors were subsidized by essentially banks underpricing liquidity risk, 424 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: and like that led to two thousand and eight, right, 425 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: And now it's like a little bit more expensive to 426 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 3: trade bonds because banks don't under underprice liquidity provision as much. 427 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: And you know, it's. 428 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: Fine, Like it's not like the worry was not it 429 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 3: would be like ten bases points more expensive to trade bonds. 430 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: The worry was that like bond markets would seize up 431 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: if like rates went up or if their credit problems, 432 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 3: and like no one would be able to sell and 433 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 3: it would be a blood bath, and it just never happened, right, 434 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: Like grades went up, and it's that worry never really 435 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: came true. The other worry was that like bond ETFs 436 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: for some reason, was ETFs not mutual funds. The ETFs 437 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 3: created a liquidity illusion where people could day trade, you know, 438 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: in and out of the ETF, but like the underlying 439 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: bonds were less liquid and in a scenario where everyone 440 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: wanted out of the ETF, the liquidity would dry up 441 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 3: and it would be a disaster. And I think, like 442 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: in some of the dislocations around COVID, there was like 443 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: a little truth to that, Like there was a little 444 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 3: bit of like dislocations between ETF prices and bond prices, 445 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: but not in a way that caused the big crisis. 446 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: And I think the sort of latest research is that 447 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: ETFs actually contribute to the liquidity of the underlying bonds. 448 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: I love ETFs, so I'm happy to hear that, yeah 449 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: you hate bonds. When you said bond market liquidity, I 450 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: tuned out. I can't believe how long we've gone without 451 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: really doing a deeper dive into crypto, which I feel 452 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: like is a very much recurring topic for you on 453 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: a weekly basis, because there's so much news in crypto 454 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: worth examining further, I guess writing about how do you choose, 455 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: even given everything that's going on in crypto, how do 456 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: you choose what to focus on, the answer. 457 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: To how do I choose is really simple. I'm not 458 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: that interested in crypto except that it is an amazing, 459 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 3: amazing laboratory for understanding real finance, because it's just like 460 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: people rebuild like these schematic versions of stuff that exists 461 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: in the world. Like they're like, what if we had 462 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 3: margin lending, Let's build it in a really dumb way, 463 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: and then you just see how it breaks, and it's 464 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: so fun, and they do that so much, and so 465 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 3: like I'm interested in crypto stories that are like that, 466 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 3: like illuminate, like good or bad financial market intuitions, and 467 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 3: there's so many of those. I mean, frankly, like what 468 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 3: I often write about in crypto is the sort of 469 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 3: big headline legal battles over whether it's legal in the US, 470 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: which I don't think is that interesting, which I think 471 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: is important, and which like I have kind of stayed 472 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: at a position there where like everyone in crypto thinks 473 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 3: that the SEC is like wildly overreaching in saying that 474 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: crypto most tokens or securities, and I think the SEC 475 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 3: is clearly right, and I think most crypto is not entirely, 476 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 3: but in the meaningful part a way to try to 477 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: get around the securities laws that have existed in the 478 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: US for one hundred years that are designed to prevent 479 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 3: people from going out and raising a lot of money 480 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 3: from the public by selling shares of their business project 481 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 3: without certain disclosures. And I think most crypto tokens are 482 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 3: clearly people raising money for their business projects without those disclosures, 483 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 3: and the SEC thinks that, and most people in crypto 484 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 3: I think that's crazy. So I find myself getting involved 485 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 3: in those debates and running about that a lot. But 486 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 3: I don't think it's that interesting, right. 487 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: Given all the enforcement actions we've seen, coinbase Finance, the 488 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: Ripple lawsuit, are you any more comfortable with saying what 489 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: the SEC considers as a security and what isn't right now? 490 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: Do you think that clarity is there yet or is 491 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: it still. 492 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: There's been there for years? They think they think every 493 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 3: cryptotoken is a security except Bitcoin, and like they're not 494 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: gonna say e theory it is, although they think it is, 495 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 3: and this is totally clear. Like there's no lack of 496 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: clarity there. It's like just people are mad about it. 497 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 3: And by the way, like the SEC could well be wrong. 498 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: I think they're kind of right, but like they've had 499 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 3: a mixed record in court and they had one big 500 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 3: loss in some other cases where like they've won, but 501 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 3: it's like a little the language is bad for them. 502 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 3: But no, I think like the SEC's position is really 503 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 3: really really clear. They've been a little slow and enforcing 504 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 3: that position, but that's changing. But like the action right 505 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 3: now is whether courts will agree with the SEC and 506 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 3: also whether Congress will will. 507 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: Ruin them in the loss you're talking about is is 508 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: the Ripple case? 509 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 3: Right, sorry, the loss of the Rippel case. 510 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: Yes, so that's excerpt. So is XRPA security. That's a 511 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 2: Ripple token excerpt. 512 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know O is going to be appeal. 513 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 3: I mean the finding in court was incoherent, but I 514 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 3: mean it's kind of that XRP is not a security, 515 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: and it's kind of that it's sometimes a security when 516 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 3: it's sold to institutional investors, but not when it's sold 517 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 3: to retail investors, which is not really the way the security. 518 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that doesn't seem like that that will stand. 519 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: I feel like that is too weird of a judgment. 520 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, do you see that getting overturned? Ultimately? 521 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: Where do you where do you see it all going? 522 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: Do you think Congress is going to sort of finally 523 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: get on the ball and and codify what is and 524 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: what isn't? Where is that? Is that wishful thinking that 525 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: that's going to happen? 526 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: Do you think there is a good chance Congress will 527 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 3: do that? Which I think is very weird because like 528 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 3: to me two years ago, one year ago, Crypto was 529 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: this like industry, like hot industry that had a huge 530 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 3: lobbying presence, and people could sort of align themselves with 531 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 3: it as the wave of the future. And I think 532 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: if you look at it today, much smaller than it was. 533 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: The way the future is AI now not Crypto. Every 534 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 3: VC has pivoted from CRYPTOIII, And a lot of the 535 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: prominent crypto founders who were posing for panshakes with senators 536 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 3: are at least their project has gone bankrupt when they're 537 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: suing each other, and like sometimes they're in prison, right 538 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: and so like, I don't know if I were a 539 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 3: Congress like I feel this as just someone who wrote 540 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 3: about crypto, like I feel burned by crypto. I'm like, 541 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 3: I'm not going to give these guys the benefit of 542 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: the data anymore. I'm not gonna advocate for them anymore, 543 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 3: because like they're all in prison. I think if I 544 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: were a congressman, I would be like, man, I pose 545 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 3: shaking hands with a lot of people who are now 546 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: in jail, and I don't want to do that again. 547 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 3: So I'm not going to introduce the bill to like 548 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: make crypto more illegal. But that's not apparently what the 549 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 3: congressmen think. And there continues to be a lot of 550 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: support for crypto in Congress that I find to me, 551 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: it just seems like a strange political calculation, and maybe 552 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: some of it is like their remains lobbying money in crypto. 553 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: Six months ago, I would have been incredibly pessimistic about 554 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 3: Congress doing anything to regular crypto, just because like it 555 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: seemed after the Class of FTX, it just seemed so dead. 556 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: And now I have more optimistic that Congress will will 557 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 3: do stuff. There's also like away from the crypto industry, 558 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: there's just like the political dynamics of like Gary Gensler 559 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 3: at the SEC is a very aggressive regulator. There's a 560 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 3: strong deregulatory movement in the Republican Party in Congress and 561 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: also in the courts, and so away from the substance 562 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 3: of crypto, like there might be just a move to 563 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: limit the SEC's power and like limit just the effect 564 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 3: of regulation, and the crypto might be a sort of 565 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: like accidental beneficiary of that. 566 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: Matt Levine of Bloomberg Opinion, such a treat to catch 567 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: up with you. Just for the record, I did find 568 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: a research report from twenty twenty one the global pepperoni 569 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: market two billion dollars a year. That sounds low to me. 570 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: That's way too lowly, too low. 571 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: I think it's too quadrillion. It was the right answer. Well, 572 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: now we can't let you go just yet though, with 573 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: abbutrition on this podcast where we all share the craziest 574 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: things we've seen in markets. I'll confess your column is 575 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: often a very good source of the craziest things. 576 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: Which is why the bar is high for you. 577 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: The bar is high. But when do you get us started? 578 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: Okay? I have a story from the Wall Street Journal. 579 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: It says job hunters are invading dating apps, so people 580 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: looking for jobs they'll use dating apps, they'll connect with 581 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: people at companies they want to work for work at, 582 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: and when they get romantic messages, they'll feel ikey about it. 583 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: They'll send their resume back. 584 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, no, but they'll feel ikey about the romantic messages. 585 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: But they're really looking to network and hopefully get a job. 586 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: Placement is so interesting? 587 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: Is it working for any of them? 588 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: There's a couple of examples in the story, and it 589 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: says like this one moment, she didn't end up at 590 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: the company where she was like chatting this guy up. 591 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, but it helped with the networking and 592 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: ultimately shehanded up with her job. 593 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: Huh, how do you know? They're not all the guy 594 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: Matt wrote about who was pumping up options for what 595 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: was the name of that club, the so House the guy. 596 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: Oh that was a good story. 597 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, what did what did the guy do? He said 598 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: he created a bunch of fake female profile and then 599 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: he would match with guys and tell them. 600 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: To meet it so yes, so they would have to 601 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: buy the membership. 602 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a brilliant scheme. I don't know securities fraud, Matt. 603 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 3: I read the common to find out. 604 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: I didn't. 605 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: I don't even know if it was a joke. I 606 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: think like he clearly wasn't doing it. But yeah, yeah, 607 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 3: did he meme up the stock? 608 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, if he didn't do it, I 609 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: don't know. It sounds like right, yeah, yeah, all right, Matt, 610 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: how about you see anything crazy this week? 611 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: Not to cheat and time I call him, but I've 612 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 3: a I'm fascinated by the situation with Sculptor Capital Management. 613 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: Sculpture is this like publicly traded hedge fund firm and 614 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 3: it's got a you know, a hedge fund manager who 615 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: runs it, and it's trying to go private. It is 616 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 3: agreed to sell itself to another firm that would keep 617 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: that manager in place, and like a bunch of other 618 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 3: hedge fund guys have just lobbed in a topping bid 619 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: saying no, no, we should buy it, we should kick 620 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: out that guy, and we should take over this fund. 621 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 3: It's such a it's like you you wonder why it 622 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 3: doesn't happen more often. An answer is basically because there 623 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: are not a lot of publicly traded hedge fund firms. 624 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: But it's such a like aggressive move of these guys 625 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 3: wanting to buy a hedge fund firm because they think 626 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: they do a better job of running the hedge fund 627 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: than the guy who's running the hedge fund. And it's 628 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 3: also it's weird because it's like it's a bunch of them. 629 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: It's like Boas Weinstein and Bill Ackman and Mark Lazary 630 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 3: who are all big hedge fund managers teaming up together 631 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 3: to go in on this other hedge fund, and they're 632 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: doing it in their personal accounts, like they're not like 633 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: they all run hedge fund firms, but those firms are 634 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: not buying or not trying to buy the sculptor. They're 635 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: just they're doing it with their own money, I guess 636 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 3: because as like their hedgehund managers and their day job, 637 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: but they want to run a want to manage a 638 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 3: different hedge fund as a hobby. I just think it's 639 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: so wild and it's going to be like a contested 640 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: mn A situation, and like there's all sorts of accusations 641 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 3: and just like the under like the just the basic 642 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 3: gist of these hedge fund guys trying to steal hedge 643 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: funds from each other is just is very unusual. 644 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: That is a great story, all right, I'll give you mine. 645 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated. I don't know about you guys. I 646 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: assume we all take public transportation to work, right, So 647 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: I've never been a big car guy. 648 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: I take a helicopter. 649 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: Oh of course you do. Yeah, I've never been a 650 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: big car guy. And especially people that buy these vintage 651 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: cars for a lot of money. That never quite got that. 652 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: But it's great for crazy things. I'll give you this 653 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: story from the BBC. This wasn't like a car. It 654 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: was the burnt out shell of an old Ferrari. It 655 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: was from nineteen the nineteen fifties. It was a five 656 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: hundred Mandu Spider Series one, if that means anything to anyone, 657 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: one of thirteen made. It was driven by Ferrari's first 658 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: like official race car driver, Franco quotes, who I doesn't 659 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: sound like he was that very good at being a 660 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: race car driver. Even he finished fourteenth in this thousand 661 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: mile race across Italy. He crashed the car a bunch 662 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: of times. Anyway, someone bought the remnants of this carb 663 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: Why wasn't burned out? I guess because he would crash 664 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: and much fire. But then it was. It was in 665 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: a big warehouse fire at some point and so finally 666 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: what was left was basically a big heap of scrap metal. 667 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: All right, but it is the scrap metal of this 668 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: famous old school Ferrari racing car. Someone stuck it in 669 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: a barn in Florida and it just sat there with 670 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: these other busted up Ferraris for years and years, and 671 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: then hurricane comes along in a two thousand and four 672 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: blows the roof off of the barn and they discover 673 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: these Ferraris, and then it's been a hot collector's. 674 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: Items, like frosty Ferraris rusty. 675 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: This isn't even like it's just basically the shell, like 676 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: the outer body of it, and it's no color. It's 677 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: like a gray and it's burnout. And you know they're 678 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: saying theoretically could refurbish it. I am highly doubtful of that. 679 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: I wish I could show you the picture on the podcast, 680 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: but I cannot. But you know what time it is, Yes, 681 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: it's I'm sorry to inform you, Matt, but you're now 682 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: a contestant on our game show. Here the price is precise. 683 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: What do you think At Sotheby's, the winning bid was, 684 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: We're basically a hunk of scrap metal that used to 685 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: be a Ferrari race car in the nineteen fifties. 686 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: How much does a regular Ferrari cost? Oh, I should 687 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: know because I own so many. 688 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: That is a good question. I don't know, dis guessing 689 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: they're probably half a million. Now, I don't have no idea. 690 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: Why are they? Yeah, so this would be more. 691 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: I think the vintage Ferrari is like a like a 692 00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: real classic Ferrari. 693 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, more right, right in the collector's market. Now, No, I'm. 694 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: Going with one point two million. 695 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: I'm going with one okay, one point one nine million, 696 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: and you said. 697 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 2: More one point two I was gonna go, MAT's. 698 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: Watch the prices right before two million dollars two million? 699 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 2: I win? 700 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: You win? 701 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh, I beat Matt Levine. 702 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: Wait, though, I'm questioning your strategy there. One point one 703 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: nine human one dollar. 704 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, and that's not actually prices right. 705 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: Over. 706 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 3: But I just want to be closest. Yeah, and as 707 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 3: close to that being because there's only two of us, 708 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 3: I figured it was less than that. 709 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: True. Well, yeah, you would have won if it was 710 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: less than that's that's fine. 711 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:42,959 Speaker 2: It was two million. 712 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: I would have a worded him two million. Yeah, for 713 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: scrap a bunch of five hundred mondy Old Spider series one, 714 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: one of thirteen, never made two million. 715 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: No comments million. 716 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: Maybe they'll make an n F two out of it. Yeah, anyway, 717 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: Matt Levine, thanks so much for your time. Always just 718 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: a pleasure to hear your thoughts about if we would 719 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: cover all the most absurd topics. I think really appreciate it. Matt, 720 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, Eric, thank you, thank you man. 721 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: What Goes Up. We'll be back next week. Until then, 722 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app, 723 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if 724 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: you took the time to rate and review the show 725 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: so more listeners can find us. You can find us 726 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: on Twitter, follow me at Wildona Hirich. Mike Reagan is 727 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 2: at Reaganonymous. You can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. 728 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: What Goes Up is produced by Stacey Wong and our 729 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: head of podcasts is Stage Bauman. Thanks for listening. 730 00:35:50,680 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 4: We'll see you next week. 731 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: Thanks