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Speaker 1: Zone Media. Hello everyone, this is Dana al Kurd for

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Speaker 1: it could happen here. Today's episode will be focused on

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Speaker 1: AIRB Israelian normalization, Arab Israeli peace deals, and AIRB Israeli

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Speaker 1: relations more generally. The reason that this is an important

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Speaker 1: topic to discuss is because a few weeks ago, The

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Speaker 1: Washington Post published this PowerPoint presentation originating in the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration titled The Great Trust From a demolished Iranian proxy

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Speaker 1: to a prosperous Abrahamic Ally. And this presentation is about Gaza,

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Speaker 1: the US and Israeli vision for what Gaza's quote unquote

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Speaker 1: reconstruction will look like. And the word Great itself is

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Speaker 1: an acronym that stands for Gaza reconstitution, economic acceleration, and transformation. Now,

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Speaker 1: this presentation has so much in it that horrifies any

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Speaker 1: normal human being, but essentially it outlines this vision for

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Speaker 1: how Gaza is going to be reconstructed, and throughout the

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Speaker 1: entire document, it's very clear that whatever remains of Gaza's

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Speaker 1: population will not have any political rights. There is some

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Speaker 1: gesturing at some point about handing over some governance to

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Speaker 1: quote vetted Palestinians, but there's also a repeated discussion within

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Speaker 1: this presentation, within this document of how they want to

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Speaker 1: incentivize a significant segment of Gaza's population to leave Gaza

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Speaker 1: altogether and not return, and they want to financially incentivize

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Speaker 1: them to do that. I think the entire presentation is

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Speaker 1: worth looking at. I'll put it in the show notes

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Speaker 1: because it really outlines what they think Gaza is going

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Speaker 1: to look like and what they plan for the Palestinians

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Speaker 1: more generally. The reason why Arab is really a normalization

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Speaker 1: is important to discuss given this presentation, Given what's happening

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Speaker 1: in Gaza after ceasefire is present very much in this

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Speaker 1: dog It's very clear from the presentation that the US

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Speaker 1: and Israel envision a particular role for Arab governments in

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Speaker 1: this reconstruction and in this new Middle East that they

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Speaker 1: hope to achieve a Middle East where Gaza is this

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Speaker 1: economic zone, connecting it to Saudi Arabia, connecting it to

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Speaker 1: other parts of the Middle East, opening up investment opportunities

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Speaker 1: for different Middle Eastern governments and companies in the Global

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Speaker 1: North as well, and it really is just an astounding

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Speaker 1: vision to behold. Referring to Gaza as a demolished Iranian

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Speaker 1: proxy that they want to turn into an Abrahamic ally

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Speaker 1: is also interesting here because we've seen this kind of

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Speaker 1: language in the last couple of years, especially during the

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Speaker 1: first Trump administration with the Abraham Accords. Now the Abraham Accords,

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Speaker 1: as this episode will outline in detail, were agreements signed

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Speaker 1: between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain and

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Speaker 1: eventually Morocco and a part of Sudan. And these agreements

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Speaker 1: were billed as this new era of peace between Arabs

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Speaker 1: and Israel under this kind of religious language and religious

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Speaker 1: framing of Abraham as the father of both Jews and Arabs,

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Speaker 1: Jews and Muslims. So to discuss this entire framework, what

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Speaker 1: it means, what it obfuscates today, I'm joined by Ben

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Speaker 1: Schumann Stohler and Matan Kammoner who have created a new

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Speaker 1: podcast series called Bad Cousins. This is published by Colomdia

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Speaker 1: in partnership with the Diasporust and they recently had an

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Speaker 1: event in Berlin debuting their first episode, which full disclosure

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Speaker 1: I'm on, but essentially they tackled this question of why

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Speaker 1: are the Abraham Accords named after Abraham? What was that

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Speaker 1: intended to denote and why is Arab Israelian normalization such

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Speaker 1: a big piece of the puzzle in understanding both Israeli

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Speaker 1: Palsiinian conflict right now as well as the vision for

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Speaker 1: the Israeli Pastinian conflict from the American and Israeli perspective.

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Speaker 1: So please enjoy this interview with Ben and Mattan want

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Speaker 1: to to give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves

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Speaker 1: to the audience.

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Speaker 2: So the time would you like to start? Sure?

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Speaker 3: I'm an anthropologist. I work at Queen Mary University in London.

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Speaker 3: My main research is on migration from Thailand to Israel

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Speaker 3: for agricultural work. But this project is something of a

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Speaker 3: side project that's blossomed together with Ben, who have been

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Speaker 3: good friends with for I think we're we a decade now,

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that first book on the Time migrants.

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Speaker 1: But you have also published extensively on the Arab is

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Speaker 1: really normalization questions, So yeah, we'll get into it.

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Speaker 2: Ben.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm Benjamin Soler. I'm a founder and owner of

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Speaker 4: Colo Media here in Berlin, Germany.

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Speaker 5: We're an audio publisher.

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Speaker 4: We have audiobooks and shows and documentaries in English and German.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 2: Awesome.

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Speaker 1: All right, So the listeners, I'm sure are going to

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Speaker 1: be a little bit aware, but let's kind of just

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Speaker 1: define terms at the top of this. When we say

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Speaker 1: arab is really normalization, well, what do we mean by that?

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Speaker 2: So it's a long, long process, it's not new.

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Speaker 3: One of the interesting things that I found out when

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Speaker 3: researching this, the article that this podcast came out of,

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Speaker 3: is that more than one hundred years ago, High White

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Speaker 3: Span who was head of the Zionist organization, and King

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Speaker 3: Faisal were in very very close communication about an agreement

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Speaker 3: that it seems a lot like the progenitor of the

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Speaker 3: Arab courts today.

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Speaker 2: We had a very sort of.

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Speaker 3: Strong pro Western orientation on both sides, pro imperialist, if

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Speaker 3: you like use that language. We had a disdain for

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Speaker 3: the Palestinians as people who were not supposedly an important

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Speaker 3: factor in the politics of the area. And we had

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Speaker 3: a framing of Arabs and Jews as relatives as kin,

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Speaker 3: which is one that we trace back in the show

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Speaker 3: to the sort of Abrahamic concept that has really come

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Speaker 3: to the fore with the naming of the abraham Courts.

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Speaker 3: Of course, there's a long long history since then, with

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Speaker 3: the bigger landmarks being the Egyptian Israelian normalization in the

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Speaker 3: late in eighteen seventies seventy nine I think, and of

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Speaker 3: course Danian Israeli normalization in nineteen ninety four, which came

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Speaker 3: very very tightly knit with the Oslocords and the initiation

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Speaker 3: of so called peace talks between the Palestines and the Israelis.

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Speaker 3: So the Palestins war, of course, do play a central

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Speaker 3: role here, whether as present or as a present absentees

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Speaker 3: as Israelis like to call them sometimes today. Of course,

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Speaker 3: we fast forward to the twenty twenties. The Abraham Accords

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Speaker 3: were assigned between Israel, Bahrain, the UAE, Morocco and one

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Speaker 3: of the warring factions in Sudan back in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: and of course there's a kind of live project led

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Speaker 3: by the US under Trump as well as Biden to

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Speaker 3: extend normalization between Israel and not only Arab countries, but

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Speaker 3: other so called Islamic countries like Kazakhstan.

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Speaker 2: Kazakhstan, yes, which.

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Speaker 1: Has had diplomatic relations since nineteen ninety two, but we'll

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Speaker 1: get into that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, But those other ones, of course, that are

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Speaker 3: on the table. I think Indonesia has been spoken about.

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Speaker 3: Pakistan is always some harring in the background, the big

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Speaker 3: fish in Saudi Arabia, and we can talk about that as.

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Speaker 1: Well, right, Yeah, And when we say normalization, usually people

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Speaker 1: are referring to the formal normalization of diplomatic ties, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of these countries, a lot of the Arab

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Speaker 1: countries had a position reiterated in the Arab Peace Initiative

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and two that they would not have

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Speaker 1: normal ties with the State of Israel until a resolution

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Speaker 1: of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and the Abraham Accords was

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Speaker 1: a step away from that kind of breaking of that precedent.

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Speaker 1: But if we think about kind of under the table normalization,

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Speaker 1: of course there are so many ways in which these

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Speaker 1: Arab countries have had under the table normalization to varying

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Speaker 1: degrees with the.

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Speaker 2: State of Israel.

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Speaker 1: Ben, maybe you could tell us about what the Abraham

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Speaker 1: Accords were, how are they build and what did they include.

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Speaker 4: You have to make sure the precision of my language

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Speaker 4: is on point. But there's two agreements, right, There's two

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Speaker 4: things that were actually signed. So one is the framework, right,

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Speaker 4: which which discusses like the Abraham Accords as this unit

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Speaker 4: the decoration of principles, the declaration of principles, and the

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Speaker 4: other one's a peace treaty, right, the peace treaty between

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Speaker 4: Israel and the UE and in other countries.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: So essentially that's what it is. It's these two signings.

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Speaker 4: But I think when you when you talk about how

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Speaker 4: it was presented, it's supposed to mean, it's supposed to

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Speaker 4: be like a vehicle conduit for travel, for security, for economics,

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Speaker 4: for UH, for deals, for cultural interchange, for a new

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Speaker 4: way to be seen. It's like a massive pr exercise,

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Speaker 4: a ton jumping, and with the with the specifics, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean what we're kind of honing in on here

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Speaker 3: is the sort of sort of cultural or ideological aspects,

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Speaker 3: if you want to be more stern about it, and

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Speaker 3: I think you know that that's that's that's the real

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Speaker 3: interest of the show is in how the sort of

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Speaker 3: mythical framework that I refer to already, and specifically the

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Speaker 3: figure of Abraham is really really central to this kind

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Speaker 3: of ideological framing of their course. Like Alamfacher has written

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Speaker 3: extensively about how toleration and tolerance have become sort of

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Speaker 3: ideological tools, and Abraham is kind of a figurehead for that.

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Speaker 3: He does this in two different ways that I think

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Speaker 3: are interesting for listeners to sort of follow on. The

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Speaker 3: first is as the progenitor or the kind of.

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Speaker 2: A figure out of Monotheism.

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Speaker 3: So Jews, Christians, and Muslims all all have a stake

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Speaker 3: in Abraham, and of course this concept of the Abrahamic

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Speaker 3: religions that's very central here. But another one, and we

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Speaker 3: already mentioned this as well, is this the sort of

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Speaker 3: language of kinship of Jews.

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Speaker 2: And Arabs as being related to one another.

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Speaker 3: As being specifically cousins or so it is called bad cousins.

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Speaker 3: Because we're kind of exploring the various modalities or the

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Speaker 3: various kind of shades of meaning and mood that this

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Speaker 3: this idea of cousins can have. It can be very positive,

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Speaker 3: of course, you know a lot of people say, oh Abraham,

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Speaker 3: that's so, he's a wonderful figure of peace, of hospitality,

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Speaker 3: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But they are also really dark sides to it.

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Speaker 3: Dark size that we really get into are this sort

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Speaker 3: of misogyny that's very very central in the Abraham myth,

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Speaker 3: the underpinnings of slavery versus freedom that are that are

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Speaker 3: really really present there and maybe most prominent and most

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Speaker 3: important to me, maybe as somebody who also studies migration

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Speaker 3: to the area, is xenophobia. So something that you and

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Speaker 3: I have written about, you know, the similarities between the UE,

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Speaker 3: for example, and Israel that aren't really considered, that aren't

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Speaker 3: thought about much. One that's always stood out to me

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Speaker 3: is the way that migrant workers are treated in both

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Speaker 3: these countries. The Golf States, including including Douee, are huge

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Speaker 3: obviously users of non citizen migrant labor. Israel is not

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Speaker 3: as big, So it's not as big as phenomenal in

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Speaker 3: Israel there, but it's growing a lot, especially since since

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Speaker 3: since October seventh when Pasteena workers have been shut out

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Speaker 3: of the Israeli market. And so I think Israel is

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Speaker 3: like the Golf States in a lot of these ways.

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Speaker 3: It's also getting more getting to be more like them.

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Speaker 3: And Abraham is kind of a prism or figuring through

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Speaker 3: which we start to explore all these issues.

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Speaker 1: So in my mind, when the Abraham Accords were you know,

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Speaker 1: whispered about and then we saw them happen, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been writing about Araba's Relian normalization since since before

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Speaker 1: the Abraham Accords in smaller ways. But in my mind

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Speaker 1: when I kind of heard that terminology being used and

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Speaker 1: that framing being used, to me, it felt deceptive that

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Speaker 1: they were using this term of like the Abraham Accords

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Speaker 1: denoting and hearkening back to like the idea of the

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Speaker 1: Abrahamic tradition and that we're kin and all of these

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Speaker 1: things for listeners who are bad at religion as I am.

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Speaker 1: Abraham had two sons, presumed, you know, apparently, and one

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Speaker 1: of those sons is the ancestor of Jews and the

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Speaker 1: other one is the ancestor of Arabs, if you believe that.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm not gonna have blespheme on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I.

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Speaker 2: Think the story is important. I mean, it is a deception.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree with you on that, but it's important

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Speaker 3: to unpack how the deception.

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Speaker 2: Works, right right right.

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Speaker 3: It's so effective because the story is so well known

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Speaker 3: to people in the region.

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Speaker 1: No, absolutely, absolutely, But to me, like the deception lay

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Speaker 1: in the framing of Arab and Israeli animosity through a

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Speaker 1: religious perspective, as if the con was a religious one.

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Speaker 1: So to me it felt kind of very shallow But

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Speaker 1: then as you start to unpack not only the impacts

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Speaker 1: of the Abraham Accords immediately, so immediately repression increases in

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Speaker 1: these countries that sign the agreement, But then you start

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Speaker 1: to unpack, like, what are these accords actually serving for

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Speaker 1: the Arab countries that are signing Why are they signing

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Speaker 1: with Israel. Well, they're re engineering. They're attempting to re

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Speaker 1: engineer society. A lot of that tolerance language has to

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Speaker 1: do with that. It's they don't want societies that are

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Speaker 1: politically active. They want them to be interested in consumerism,

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Speaker 1: they want them to be maybe slightly socially liberal, tolerate

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Speaker 1: the Israelis, tolerate war crimes and you know, kumbaya, and

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Speaker 1: never ever have the ability to question the political leadership

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Speaker 1: or the political status quo in any of these countries

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Speaker 1: or in the region as a whole.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's all that, But I think it's

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Speaker 3: also a global power move right. The Gulf countries, including Katar,

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Speaker 3: which has a different politics, are all really trying to

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Speaker 3: make for themselves to become really, really huge global players.

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Speaker 3: They're basically all trying to transform this gigantic oil wealth

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Speaker 3: that they have into soft power, into diplomatic power into

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Speaker 3: cultural power. You know this, This this brings us into

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Speaker 3: the comedy festival in Saudi Arabia as well, Right, And

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Speaker 3: I think I think part of the framework here is

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Speaker 3: we're part of this larger global story which is about freedom,

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Speaker 3: piece and friendship through religion.

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Speaker 2: Now, what's the deception here?

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Speaker 3: The deception is this sort of and I think been

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Speaker 3: uh this is one of one of his favorite points,

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Speaker 3: so he can he can expand on this. There's a

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Speaker 3: sort of like a switcheroo game in which something else

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Speaker 3: is brought into view and the Palestinians are hidden.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: The crux of the conflict, the crux of what is

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Speaker 3: basically brought Israel to to go wild on the entire region,

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Speaker 3: attacking seven different countries simultaneously, is the Palestinians. And it's

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Speaker 3: always has been the Palestinians, always going to be the Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: There is and you've written about this as well. There

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Speaker 3: is a segment of verbe society, especially our believes, especially

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Speaker 3: in the Gulf, who want nothing to do with the

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Speaker 3: Palestinians and happy would be happy to.

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Speaker 2: Get rid of them. But this isn't the case with

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of air.

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Speaker 3: It's also not the case for the vast majority of

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Speaker 3: global South, I think, and even the vast majority of

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Speaker 3: the global North right. We've seen very very clear majorities

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Speaker 3: against Israel's genocide in Gaza, even in the United States,

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Speaker 3: you know, in Israel's biggest stala Everroat. So there's in

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Speaker 3: order to not have to talk about this, it's always

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Speaker 3: good to be able to talk about something else. One

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Speaker 3: of the many ways, and I'm not saying this is

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Speaker 3: the only one, one of the many ways in which

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Speaker 3: the subject has changed is by talking about Abraham.

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Speaker 2: So we're doing well.

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Speaker 3: I mean, our show has a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: it's it's it's kind of a difficult to move to

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Speaker 3: make because we were trying to talk about an excuse

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Speaker 3: but also impact why that excuse is so powerful.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's like a lot of violence in this

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Speaker 4: peace framing. And if you look at I think it's

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Speaker 4: point eighteen of the peace framework that Trump talks about,

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Speaker 4: the Trump presented on Gaza, I think it's I think

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Speaker 4: it's eighteen.

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Speaker 5: I have the quote here, but that number.

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Speaker 4: It's you know, an interfeit process will be established based

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Speaker 4: on the values of tolerance and peaceful coexistence to try

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Speaker 4: and change mindsets. I mean, this is like to try

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Speaker 4: and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by

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Speaker 4: emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's like.

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Speaker 4: Mafia talk, right, It's like you better do it exactly,

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Speaker 4: you better you're going to love this piece so much

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Speaker 4: or else kind of thing. I cut up some audio

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Speaker 4: from the episodes and from the interview with you, Donna

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Speaker 4: that at the live event that we had here in

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Speaker 4: Berlin a couple weeks ago. This topic is so feels

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Speaker 4: so urgent and relevant to so many people that like,

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Speaker 4: more than fifty people came out in the rain in

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Speaker 4: November in Berlin, and one of the things I played

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Speaker 4: was was exactly when you called it an obfluscation, like

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Speaker 4: there's this paradox where all these things that are under

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Speaker 4: the table are coming up and are now explicit, these

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Speaker 4: secret deals with gold states, this normalization that you know,

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Speaker 4: you two had known about, you know, in your research,

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Speaker 4: but people like me would know about if they're not following,

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Speaker 4: if they're not academics, if they're not following this closely.

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Speaker 5: And yet the Abramcords brought this all.

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Speaker 4: Up, Okay, now everyone knows right now, we know that

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Speaker 4: like this is about Iran, this is about security, this

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Speaker 4: is about you know, these material issues, right. But at

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Speaker 4: the same time that it's playing on this kind of

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Speaker 4: clarity and this openness, right, and this moderation, it's also

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Speaker 4: creating a whole new obfiscation, a whole new myth. And

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Speaker 4: you know, people love love this quote. Like there was

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Speaker 4: a lot of like nodding heads in the audience when

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Speaker 4: I played what you said, Donald, which was like as if, right,

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Speaker 4: like as if this is about religion, it's about land,

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Speaker 4: and it's about sovereignty, and that's clear.

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Speaker 5: But these aren't called the Land and Sovereignty Accords.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, like you said, it's very violent.

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Speaker 1: I mean I've been describing normalization under these terms as

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Speaker 1: well as the Abraham Accords in particular, as authoritarian conflict management,

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Speaker 1: because it maintains structural violence. It's not attempting to solve

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Speaker 1: the underlying you know, motivations for that violence, which, as

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Speaker 1: you said, is the Israeli Pastinian conflict, which is the land,

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Speaker 1: which is the war crimes. And I think also I

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Speaker 1: want to just emphasize for listeners that the tolerance framing

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Speaker 1: in particular, there's like the flip side to it, which

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Speaker 1: is you better like this piece or else. And we're

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Speaker 1: calling it peace and it's Abrahamic, So like, if you

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Speaker 1: don't like it, what does that say about you? Are

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Speaker 1: you intolerant? Are you an anti Semite? Are you you know, like,

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Speaker 1: it's just how could you be against peace? The piece

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Speaker 1: is in the name, but it's a very particular type

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Speaker 1: of piece.

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Speaker 3: It's a liberal I think, I think authoritarian conflict management

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Speaker 3: is a very good way of putting it. But also

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Speaker 3: it's also very helpful to help to explain why the

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Speaker 3: abraham myth is so useful in that regard. Can we

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Speaker 3: just go over the story real, real, real quick for

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Speaker 3: listeners who aren't that familiar. Yes, please, So Abraham who

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Speaker 3: is known as in all the so called Abrahamic religions

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Speaker 3: as the first one to explicitly reject idolatry. Right, so,

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Speaker 3: there are there are other righteous men in the Bible

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Speaker 3: before him, but he's the first one who becomes what

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Speaker 3: is in ISLAMI is known as the friend of God right,

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Speaker 3: so el Khalid, and he also, in addition to having

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Speaker 3: this very very intimate relationship with God. He also has

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Speaker 3: a family, right, and in this family he has a

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Speaker 3: wife and a maid servant. The wife is named Sarah,

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Speaker 3: and and the maid servant is named Hagar. Now we're

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Speaker 3: gonna do this quick, don't worry. Sarah is barren, she

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Speaker 3: can't have children, and she says to She says to Abraham,

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Speaker 3: I have an idea. Why don't you have a child

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Speaker 3: with a maid servant with Agar, and it'll be my child.

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Speaker 3: So already, already, I think we can see authoritarianism. We

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Speaker 3: can see we can see authoritarian conflict management already as

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Speaker 3: kind of the seed that's that's planted in the story,

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Speaker 3: Hagar has a child. That child is named Ishmael, and

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Speaker 3: Ishmael is beloved by his father. It's the Old Testament, says,

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Speaker 3: So it's very very clear, right. But then Sarah gets jealous.

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Speaker 3: She says, well, you know this, this son is going

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Speaker 3: to and his mother are going to be basically the

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Speaker 3: pushing me out of my of my status within the family. YadA, YadA, YadA.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of other stuff that goes on, very

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Speaker 3: very interesting and very fascinating, and lots of it very

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Speaker 3: well known, like to called Sacrifice of Isaac she miraculously

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Speaker 3: has the child.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: That child's named Isaac.

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Speaker 3: Everyone agrees within these scriptural traditions that Isaac is the

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Speaker 3: father of the Jews and Ishmael is the father of

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Speaker 3: the Arabs. This is central to both Jewish theology, Islamic theology,

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Speaker 3: and the Christians, in so far as they're involved in

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Speaker 3: the story, they're also in on.

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Speaker 2: Now then the question becomes who which one of them

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Speaker 2: is the blessed son?

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Speaker 3: Which one of the which is one of the one

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Speaker 3: is the one who's supposed to inherit the land that

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Speaker 3: is the holy land, wherever that's defined, And that's a

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Speaker 3: little bit vague as well. The Jews say it's Isaac

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Speaker 3: and the muslim to say it's Ishmael. So we have

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Speaker 3: a we have a story. What my dissertation advisor, Andrew

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Speaker 3: Tria are called a community of disagreement. There are people

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Speaker 3: who disagree on something, but they don't disagree on the frame, right,

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Speaker 3: the frame in which all that that the entire story

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Speaker 3: is inserted, is one in which there's no disagreement. Everybody

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Speaker 3: agrees that Abraham had two kids. Everybody agrees that the

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Speaker 3: women are basically you know that the women. This part

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Speaker 3: of the story is predicated on their sons, on.

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Speaker 2: Whether their sons succeed. Is is what makes the women

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Speaker 2: succeed or not?

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Speaker 3: And then the question becomes which one is the favorite son,

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Speaker 3: which one is the one that the father loves, and

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Speaker 3: then the big father up ap of also loves. Right now,

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Speaker 3: this is in itself, I think, at least in the

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Speaker 3: way that it's framed in the Abra aperrahomical courts, a

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Speaker 3: form of what do you call it, authoritarian crisis management?

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Speaker 2: Right, that's what it is.

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Speaker 3: Now, that doesn't mean and I think that this is

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Speaker 3: this is also important. This is also one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that we made the podcast that there's no other

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Speaker 3: ways of reading the story.

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Speaker 2: How else could we read the story?

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Speaker 3: For example, we could point out we could note that

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Speaker 3: the person who has the most intimate contact with God

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Speaker 3: in this entire story is Hagar.

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Speaker 2: She's the first and only person.

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Speaker 3: In the Bible to give God a name. She calls

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Speaker 3: him Ellroy, the God who has seen me. She has

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Speaker 3: at least two miracles down to her. In Islam, of course,

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Speaker 3: her story in Ishmael story becomes the story of Mecca.

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Speaker 3: All the traditions of the Hajj are based around the

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Speaker 3: story of Hagar and Ishmael. So she's a central central figure,

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Speaker 3: and she is a slave woman. She's an Egyptian, she's

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Speaker 3: the one who's cast out into the desert. She's a migrant.

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Speaker 3: Her name Hagar or Hajar in Arabic means migrant or migration. Right,

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Speaker 3: there's all these powerful undercurrents in the story, as there

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Speaker 3: are in every powerful myth, that mean that they can

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Speaker 3: be read differently, and some people are reading it differently.

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Speaker 3: So I don't think the story itself is the problem.

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Speaker 3: The problem is that the story is used in a

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Speaker 3: very particular way, in a way which facilitates again what

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Speaker 3: you call conflictual sorry, conflict conflict management.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a mouthful.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that helps us to get to wh what the

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Speaker 1: podcast does, Like who do you speak to? I know

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Speaker 1: I'm on one of the episodes, but who else do

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Speaker 1: you speak to? And like what trends were surprising to you?

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Speaker 1: How did your kind of thinking shift over time?

436
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 4: I mean, let me start at least because one thing

437
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 4: we talked a lot about at the live event, there

438
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 4: was a panel and there was a discussion with the audience,

439
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 4: and one thing that's become excessively clear, like we heard

440
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 4: my time to explain the story. I'm not from the

441
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 4: Middle East, right, And also in this Berlin audience, like

442
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 4: the relevance of the story as a Bible story. I know,

443
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 4: I've heard of the story, but it doesn't have that

444
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 4: much impact for me, like on my life or on

445
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 4: how I understand the world. It's a story, It's a

446
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,719
Speaker 4: Bible story. And we felt this from the European audience, right.

447
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 4: We heard people say something like like, Okay, this is

448
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 4: a myth, but are these the myths that are worth

449
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 4: exploring right now? You know, maybe with like looking at

450
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: the at other myths of more like material issues, and

451
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 4: I think what we're trying to do with the show

452
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 4: is also explained well. But these do affect people's lives

453
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 4: in the Middle East, Like this is something in fact

454
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 4: episode two, which canout in a couple of weeks. We

455
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 4: have all these vox pop interviews from the Old City

456
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 4: of Jerusalem where we talk to people on the street

457
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 4: and just ask like why do you think Jews and

458
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 4: Arabs are cousins?

459
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 5: And what does that mean?

460
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 4: And what does that mean with the Abraham Accords, And

461
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 4: immediately everybody had different Israelis and the Arabs that you

462
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 4: talked to him, it's on a different understandings of the

463
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 4: Abraham Accords, good and bad. But if you said, why

464
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 4: is it called the Abraham Accords, every single one of

465
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 4: them are like, oh, yeah, because we're cousins.

466
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, so start there, right.

467
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 4: So, so episode one was about the kind of geopolitics,

468
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 4: but that's why you were on Donna episode two explaining

469
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,959
Speaker 4: this kind of what does that mean? Then that if

470
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 4: everybody can agree that the Jews in the Arabs are cousins,

471
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 4: but the Abraham Accords are seen with all of these

472
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 4: like we already started talking about, you know, all these

473
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 4: obfuscating kind of nasty, hidden, violent undertones but also.

474
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 5: Kind of like sick. You know, we can fly there

475
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 5: or whatever, like all this tourism.

476
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 4: And high fiving and entrepreneurship and you know the biggest

477
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 4: satyr of whatever UAE history or whatever that was, you know.

478
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 4: So like so we start there and then and the

479
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 4: idea is to really like then turn this whole thing

480
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 4: around and look at the myths and look at the

481
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 4: stories and try and understand from all these different sides.

482
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 4: We go into you know, medieval Islamic stories and texts

483
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 4: and the idea of hospitality and the idea of cousinage

484
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 4: and what does cousins mean? And I mean Matan, you

485
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 4: can you can go further here, but the idea of

486
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: the show really starts from there, right, And that's how

487
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 4: we're going to like start at the geopolitics and end

488
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 4: up hopefully and turning the whole Abraham idea thing in

489
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 4: such a such a somersault that it lands right on

490
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 4: its head or right on its butt or something. And

491
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 4: and not only can we kind of dismantle it or

492
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 4: understand it and take it apart, but then maybe like

493
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 4: reclaim it in a different way and maybe even use

494
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 4: it for some kind of positive progressive purposes, even radical

495
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 4: ones that I mean Matan and his activism and his research.

496
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 4: You've you know, you've Maton, you say you've already seen

497
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 4: and kind of he has to make the case to me,

498
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 4: you know, that's kind of the framing of the podcast.

499
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: Like I'm eternally making the case that's okay, I think

500
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 3: I think it's it's it's it's kind of a it's

501
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 3: kind of a difficult case to make. And and and

502
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 3: the fact that people keep challenging me on it, I

503
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 3: think is very is very productive. Well, one other thing

504
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: that came up in Berlin, and I think it was

505
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: really interesting, is that Ben sort of touched on this

506
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: at the beginning of what he was saying just now,

507
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 3: the way that framing this as the Abraham course, framing

508
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 3: it as the Abraham story tends to make it easier

509
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 3: for people from Europe or from the United States to

510
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: UH to North America to see themselves as the outside

511
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 3: of this story.

512
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 2: Right, So this done. You also alluded to this. There's

513
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: this idea that this is like an age old conflict,

514
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: you know.

515
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 3: Between these these these relatives who are always quarreling between

516
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 3: themselves and oh, it's so difficult to people over there.

517
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, Q like oriental music right in the background.

518
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: And and hence that we rational outsiders, we Westerners, we Christians,

519
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 3: et cetera, all these sort of vaguely linked identities that

520
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: so called outsiders have. We are sort of neutral and

521
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: rational outsiders who can play a mediating role and bring

522
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: this this, this uh, this whole ancient mess to an end.

523
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 3: But the funny thing about this is that it's also

524
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: a religious kind of there's also a religious undertone here.

525
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: There is this idea.

526
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: You know, a lot a lot of scholars have written

527
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: about how so called secularism, so called enlightenment, you know,

528
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: in the West, actually is a secularized form of Christianity

529
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways.

530
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: And this is really actually very very.

531
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Clear in this Abrahamic framing, because there is this idea

532
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: that Christianity is superior to these other two religions, right,

533
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: this is this is this is the actual universal religion.

534
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: This is the one that is able to encompass and

535
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: sort of transcend the other ones. And hence, I think

536
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: maybe this was controversial a few years ago, but nowadays

537
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: I think it's quite clear that the US sees itself

538
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 3: as a as a as a Christian state, right, even

539
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: sees itself as a crusader state.

540
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: I mean, they stayed it pretty clearly.

541
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: With the Secretary of Defense having deis volt tattoos on

542
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 3: his chest. Right, So this is this is no longer

543
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: they're saying the quiet part out loud in this in

544
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: this in this context as well, and they think that

545
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 3: they can come in, you know, and as these sort

546
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: of outsiders solve things, but they're actually deeply implicated in

547
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 3: the story themselves for much much earlier than the nineteenth century.

548
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: We could but go back to the Crusades if we want.

549
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 2: Europe has always.

550
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: Been involved in the Middle East, right, and the Middle

551
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: East has been involved in Europe force. These are near foreigners, right,

552
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: So there's no innocence here, right, there's no there's nobody

553
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: who's outside the story and Abrahamic framework. One of the

554
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 3: I think sort of pernicious ways in which it's acting

555
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 3: in this in this current conjuncture, in this current day

556
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 3: and age, is as this sort of framing that neutralizes

557
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: the Western influence.

558
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: It makes it seem objective and rational.

559
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 5: And also I think allows the Golf states to claim that.

560
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: Right.

561
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: There's like some interesting stuff in the Facult book that

562
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: I didn't quite put together about the you know, sort

563
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 4: of elite Amarati perspectives as liberal and anti democratic. But

564
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 4: if you're pro business in a certain way, then you

565
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 4: can claim this kind of you know, like Dona Matan,

566
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 4: you two have written about moderation a lot, but this

567
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: idea for me of like, if you can claim you

568
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 4: know the business forward thinking, then you're also modern. Then

569
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: you're also considered you know, more above like you have

570
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 4: a different elevation and it different sort of legitimacy according

571
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 4: to this worldview, than somebody that would care about such

572
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 4: things as the Jews in the Arabs. What an ancient,

573
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: old fashioned kind of passe, you know, the Palestinian issue,

574
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 4: you know, kind of thing. But you know what's cool,

575
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 4: like artificial intelligence and like shipping deals in the Indian

576
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 4: Ocean that's new, you know, Yeah, that's sick. Like yeah,

577
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 4: golf and like virtual reality watching people play golf.

578
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 5: Like that would be awesome. Yeah, And it's sort of

579
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 5: data that's sort of invited.

580
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: Dubai Chocolate, I could go on.

581
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 4: It's I still think the Sator, like the biggest ador

582
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 4: in Nemuradi history or whatever, is my favorite anecdote. But

583
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 4: the way that it invited this space so like it's

584
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: almost like a genius. Like maybe it was like Jared

585
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 4: Kushner's great genius was to see this, like, you know,

586
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 4: ability to let other people claim the same Christian elevation right,

587
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 4: the same like, uh, I'm on the shaky ground here now,

588
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 4: so I'll stop.

589
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. If I don't know genius, I

590
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: don't I might dispute, you know what I mean.

591
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: In a way, it's in a way it'skind of obvious, right,

592
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: Like they were they were always going to call these

593
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: Abraham McCords when they did them in a way, right,

594
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: Derek Chrishnew, I don't.

595
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: Know he was. He's the right guy. He's the right

596
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: guy in the right place at the right time, more

597
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: than anything else.

598
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: But do you understand what I mean that like this

599
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: invitation into this perpector that you were saying, which is

600
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: kind of like Christian you know, in the in our

601
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 4: event to Berlin, someone said something like, even without the

602
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 4: Jewish Muslim context.

603
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 5: We have this problem. We have this problem in this region.

604
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 4: And the abramccords allows the conversation to happen on this

605
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 4: level of let's talk about chips, let's talk about fighter jets,

606
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 4: you know, let's talk about drones, yeah.

607
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: Drones, yeah, purveillance.

608
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

609
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: One of the things that I think is really important

610
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: is it sort of normalis is this idea that there

611
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: is a place for everybody and the people shouldn't be mixed.

612
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: And there's really extreme right, the religious extreme right in Israel.

613
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: There is this notion of the distancing of Ishmael for

614
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: his correction, right, what's the idea here is that the Ishmaelites,

615
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: that is the Arabs, that is the muslim that is,

616
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: the Palestinians.

617
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: They have their place in the world.

618
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: It's just that that place isn't here, It's somewhere else,

619
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: in a place is called Arabia, right, And therefore that's

620
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: why we can be friends with them Airathis because their

621
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: Marthis or Arabs is in the right place in Arabia.

622
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: The Palestinians, however, they are a problem because they are

623
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: Arabs who don't realize what.

624
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: The right place is.

625
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: They can stay here if they accept total subjugation. Basically,

626
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: you know, the Smultrich's plan is sort of a secularization

627
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: decisive plan. Yeah, his decisiveness plan or whatever that's called

628
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: is is is a sort of secularization of things that

629
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: Kahana was saying, the so called Rabbi Mayor Kahana was

630
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: saying in the nineteen eighties, the sort of spiritual father

631
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: of Israeli extreme right. They can stay here if they

632
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 3: if they're willing to be our slaves. Basically, if not,

633
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: they can go to Arabia. And once they're in Arabia

634
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: they can be they can be our best friends. And

635
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: this is this is really I think very very closely

636
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: connected to the animosity towards migrants.

637
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 5: Right.

638
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: That brings me back to the figure of Hagar or Hajar.

639
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 3: Right, she is a migrant, and because she is a migrant,

640
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: because she's not in the right place, that's why she's denigrated,

641
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: that's why she's exploited, that's why she's she's cast out

642
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: into the desert. So it's not just about the Palestinians

643
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: in that regard. We can see how this sort of

644
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 3: myth also plays into the hyper exploitation of micro It's

645
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: in the Gulf. We can see how it plays into

646
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: the racist treatment that refugees from Sub Saharan Africa are

647
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: receiving in North Africa.

648
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 5: Right.

649
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: We literally saw people a couple of years ago in

650
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: Tunia being cast out into the desert the way that

651
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: Hagar and Ishmael was. And of course this is all

652
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: this is all closely related again to Europe, to global

653
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: imperial kind of processes, to capitalism. You know, Ben was

654
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: talking about heacial hierarchy, special hierarchy, right. So one of

655
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: the reasons that I think we need to keep our

656
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: eye on this ideology is that in some ways it's

657
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: different from what we're used to right.

658
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: It's not for example, white supremacy.

659
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: Right were used to think about white supremacy as this

660
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: sort of globally dominant racial ideology, but this.

661
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: Is something different.

662
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: This is not about people being better because they're white.

663
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: It's about people being better because they're in their right place.

664
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: And that's actually, i think, something that's really coming up

665
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: very very strong on the global far right, on the

666
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 3: far right globally, this idea that you know, oh you'll

667
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: see like in New York for example, it's not that

668
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: we have anything against black people or Arabs or Asians

669
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: or anything else. They just need to stay in their

670
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: own countries as so long as everybody stays in their

671
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: own countries, that's fine.

672
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: And you know, with climate change, with.

673
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: All these catastrophica ecological changes that are happening in the world,

674
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: people are going to be moving. And we already we

675
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: already see people in masses moving from place to place,

676
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: but that's going to be larger and larger movements as

677
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: in the coming decades. And you know, the basic test

678
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: of humanity is going to be the test of hospitality,

679
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: whether people are allowed to into new places that they

680
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: have to go to in order to survive and this

681
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: sort of ideology I think is already sort of primed.

682
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: It's primed to to deny that and to say no,

683
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: you've got to just stay in your own space, right.

684
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: So against that, Abraham I would like to place Huggar.

685
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: I think she's the She's she's the answer.

686
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: So I mean, that's fascinating. I've never really kind of

687
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: thought about I've never really thought too hard about this

688
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: story because as a Muslim and Arab child, it upset me.

689
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: But I do want to say, like there is as

690
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: you as you mentioned, like there is a general trending

691
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: towards Ethno nationalism all over the world, but the Goal

692
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: States cannot manage Ethno nationalism. Saudi Arabia is kind of

693
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different story. But the ones

694
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: that signed, they are minorities in their countries. On top

695
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: of that, to their own citizens, to Immorti citizens, to

696
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: Bahani citizens, they are illegitimate. They are only legitimate by

697
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: virtue of providing economic opportunities. You know, those cracks have

698
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: already been showing up. So the way in which these

699
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: countries can build legitimacy for themselves, offset possible public pressure,

700
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: offset any kind of accountability for their regional role. People

701
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: forget that the United Arab Emirates is deeply implicated in

702
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: the genocide in Sudan. The way that they connect with

703
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: what is I think inherently a white supremacist and things

704
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: like this, but of course they're not white. Is what

705
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: Yesino hash Salda Hassyrian theorist, calls the ideology of modernism.

706
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: He was writing about the promise and the discourse of

707
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: the Assaid regime when Bashada Assaid came the power. But

708
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: when I read it, I was like, this sounds a

709
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: lot like the ideology of these states. And so he

710
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: says it has three traits. It entirely neglects issues of

711
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: values such as freedom, equality, human dignity, mutual respect among people,

712
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: in favor of morally amorphous categories such as secularism, enlightenment,

713
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: and modernism itself. It neglects fundamental social issues related to poverty, unemployment, marginalization,

714
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: life conditions, gender relations, et cetera. And the advocates of

715
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: this modernism are politically conservative, I mean, just.

716
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 5: To a t.

717
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the Abraham Accords and an unchill right there exactly.

718
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I you know, I wrote about this in

719
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: the context of the Abraham Accords in a paper I

720
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: published in twenty twenty three. But ya seen hashsala like

721
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: kind of nailed it back in twenty eleven that this

722
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: was the trend.

723
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think Syrians saw a lot of things earlier

724
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: than the rest of us.

725
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And so this is their vision for the world,

726
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: and I think this is the vision of a lot

727
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: of essentially the right in the world, even in America.

728
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: Likely they don't care about democracy.

729
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: They want this.

730
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: They want you to be prosperous and in your place,

731
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: and yeah, everybody stays separate.

732
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a.

733
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: Sort of like callousness around all of it, which I

734
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: think is it's actually a draw for some people, because

735
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: you know, cynicism is a big thing in the world,

736
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 3: and people are I think one of the reasons that

737
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: people attracted to Trump, for example, is because it's clear

738
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: that he's a completely cynical actor, you know, who's only

739
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: out for his own sake, and people are sort of,

740
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: you know, for better or worse, sick of the of

741
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: liberal hypocrisy, so.

742
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: They gravitate towards that.

743
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 3: And it's funny, I mean, you would think that that

744
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: wouldn't go hand in hand with religion or these mythical stories,

745
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: but it actually does, you know, speaking of prosperity, for example,

746
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: there's in evangelicalism there's a very strong strand of what's

747
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: called like the prosperity gospel, this idea and this has

748
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, very very old roots in Calvinism as well.

749
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 3: If you make it in the world, if you're rich,

750
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 3: if you make if you make a lot of money,

751
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: that means that God loves you.

752
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 5: That's like a proof.

753
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: Right, And so there again we shouldn't think about religion

754
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 3: too narrowly. Religion is really infused and all these sorts

755
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: of social ideologies, among which are this and I think

756
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 3: this is very very prominent day perhaps story in the

757
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: Abrahamicks story.

758
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: Is that well, you know, if they have oil, if

759
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: they have riches.

760
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: If they've managed to sort of manipulate the global economy

761
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: to their own advantage, then more power to them. Right,

762
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: And that's attractive. That's that's something that you want to

763
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: that's a train that you want to get on. Maybe

764
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: they'll give you a plane too, right. That was the Kataris,

765
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: That wasn't ue, So we shouldn't get them mixed up.

766
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: But I think it's kind of the same story.

767
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I completely agree. So, I mean I started

768
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: this discussion by talking about the plants for reconstruction in

769
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: Gaza m HM. And you've already mentioned that, like the

770
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: big whale for the Trump administration is Saudi Arabia. They

771
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: watch Saudi Arabia to normalize with Israel. What are some

772
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: things we should watch for in the near future. What

773
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: do you where do you think this Arab is reel

774
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: A normalization is going to go.

775
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: I'm always hesitant to make predictions. I think it's a

776
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 3: It's it's an extremely volatile moment. This ceasefiring guys that

777
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: God knows if it's going to hold or if there

778
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,959
Speaker 3: residre is going to go back in and start genociding again.

779
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 3: I think we're also seeing these really really rapid movements

780
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 3: throughout the region with I mean, we keep, we've keep,

781
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 3: We've kept alluding to cut our cutter and Turkey are

782
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 3: really playing a really much bigger role now than they

783
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: and they were until recently. And that's with with American blessing,

784
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: so that's also going to change. I think the sort

785
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 3: of calculus that that that Saudi makes, But broadly speaking,

786
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: I think one thing that we really need to keep

787
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: an eye on. Is this Imat Corridor, this idea of

788
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: that basically Biden administration was was was starting up, but

789
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: but Trump is really sort of put into into hyperdrive,

790
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 3: which is this idea of connecting India, the Gulf, Israel,

791
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: and Europe through a sort of alternative to China's Belton

792
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 3: Road initiative. It revolves around oil and gas, but it

793
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 3: also revolves around data centers and AI so sort of

794
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 3: geopolitically and and and and geoeconomically, I think that's that's

795
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: that's the big plan that the Americans have hatched for

796
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 3: for the region, and that basically means turning Gaza into

797
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: some sort of concentration camp slash as easy especially Economic zone.

798
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 3: Right there are really really really frightening plans to ethnically

799
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 3: clans about half of the guns in population and to

800
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: uh and to sort of turn the rest of them

801
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: into into well basically slaves, you know, basically uh, unfree

802
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: workers in these in this so called the especially Economic

803
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: zone that the that they're that they're trying to set up. Now,

804
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: whether any of this is going to actually happen, I

805
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: think it's anybody's it's anybody's guess.

806
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: At this point, but it's it's it's very clear.

807
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: And I just saw a physiata speaking about this at

808
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 3: the Historical Materialism conference in London.

809
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: It's very clear that it's their plan, right, that's the

810
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 2: planet's out there.

811
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 3: It's it's I don't know if it's even been leaked

812
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: or it's just publicly released, that this is what the Americans, Israelis,

813
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 3: Saudis and Immoralties are are planning for the region. It's

814
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: a it's a really kind of nightmarish vision that they're

815
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: not even they're they're broadcasting out loud, they're not they're

816
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: not even pretending to disown it or anything. So you know,

817
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: we should take them out their word and we should

818
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: be very very clear that this.

819
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: Is something totally unacceptable.

820
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 3: And I mean that's as as as you started out saying,

821
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: and I think we've always agreed on this. The question

822
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 3: for the region is the Palestinian question. If the Palestinians

823
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 3: don't have sovereignty, if they don't have freedom, if they

824
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: don't have equality, if they don't have the right of return,

825
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: then things are not going to uh are not going

826
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: to calm down in the region. It's just going to

827
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: be more and more, more and more violence, more and

828
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: more of this help for everybody, and you know, these

829
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: have been hellish years for all of us. I'm not,

830
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 3: of course making any sort of comparison. I think it's

831
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: clear that the things that have been happening in Gaza

832
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: are beyond any sort of any sort of description in

833
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 3: terms of how hard the genocide has been. But you know,

834
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 3: as in ISRAELI who's currently not living in Israel, and

835
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 3: I would like to return at some point, I really

836
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 3: hope that that that everybody in the region can come

837
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 3: to this very very clear conclusion. You know, whether you

838
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: phrase it in religious terms or not. And I don't

839
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 3: think there's a problem with framing it in religious terms.

840
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 3: There are ways of framing it in religious terms, and

841
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: we can talk a little bit about that more if

842
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: you want. Just the fact that that this that the

843
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,959
Speaker 3: indigenous people of Palestine and the Palestinians need to need

844
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: to have the rights to respect it and fulfilled, and

845
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 3: that's the only the only way that we can that

846
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: we can bring peace that we can bring. You know,

847
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: these these really beautiful biblical prophecies about the wolf and

848
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: the and the sheep lying down and the cutting down

849
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 3: of swords into the plowershares to make those reality. So

850
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: some people might call that missianic, but I think there's

851
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: some good, good forms of missionism.

852
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: Then do you have any thing to add pop that?

853
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 4: My hope the past year or two years has been

854
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 4: that if the Abraham Accords elevated, you know, countries like

855
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 4: the AE to a certain like volume, like gave them

856
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: a certain audience that maybe they didn't have before internationally,

857
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 4: that then what Israel has done could be criticized more

858
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 4: obviously and that they would actually have some leverage. So

859
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 4: my hope still is that as like normal partners, they

860
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 4: can normal threaten and normal criticize and normal check the

861
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 4: power of their you know quote whatever partners Israel. And

862
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 4: so I'm keeping an eye on hopefully that that that

863
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 4: will start happening more. What we do see is that

864
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 4: like trade continues to go up, and that doesn't seem

865
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 4: to have an impact, and I find that very disappointing.

866
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 4: And also at the same time, I see the polling,

867
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: and Donnie, you know more about this than I do,

868
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 4: but the polling shows increasing.

869
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 5: Criticism of normalization with Israel.

870
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 4: So you know, the idealist to me thinks that like

871
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 4: civil society will win out eventually, that this is just untenable,

872
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 4: and that what October seventh showed was that and the

873
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 4: and the wars since then, that without dealing with the

874
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 4: central cause in the region, which is the Palacinian cause,

875
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: like there will be no possible safe you know, entrepreneurial

876
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 4: dreamland of a rich future that they're claiming is going

877
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 4: to happen.

878
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 5: So that's my ope. But and I keep an eye

879
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 5: out for that.

880
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 4: I hope that they use China and Russia as good

881
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 4: countermeasures and counter threats to the American agenda.

882
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 5: And I keep my eye out for that.

883
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, uh, I think really that's the that's

884
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 1: the open question moving forward is like will the political

885
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: elites went out, will they be able to sidestep the

886
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: Palastinian question, sidestep their own publics, who, as you mentioned,

887
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: are extremely critical of normalization, extremely supportive of the Palestinian cause.

888
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: I think the Americans think that they can. I keep

889
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: mentioning this on this podcast, but I was on a

890
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: panel with Stanley McCrystal, General and commander of the Joint

891
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: what is it, the Joint Armed Forces or whatever in

892
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: I Rock and Afghanistan, and he was like, oh, you know,

893
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: the Arabs really want to move past the Palestinians, like

894
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: it's a thing of the past. If October seventh hadn't happened,

895
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: like you know, we would have just moved past the Palestinians.

896
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: And I was like, what the hell are you're talking about.

897
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: That's you only say that.

898
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: Because you think that you can continue to crush air publics,

899
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: like you are predicating your entire strategy on authoritarianism. And

900
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: it's it's not an Middle East problem, it's a civil

901
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: society all over the world has to fight back against

902
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: authoritarianism or this is our reality.

903
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is I think this is the moment now,

904
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 3: and this is one of the ways in which the

905
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 3: rest of the world is becoming more likely our world

906
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 3: in some ways. As we mentioned, we have large majorities

907
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 3: almost everywhere in the world. I think maybe every country

908
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 3: in the world except for Israel. We have a majority

909
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 3: of people who are now supporting Past ten more than

910
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 3: support Israel, who are against the genocide, who say, you know,

911
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: who answer the polls in a way that that makes

912
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 3: it clear that they're that they're against what's going on

913
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 3: right and they're against their government supporting it, But most

914
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: governments in the world, most governments in the world, including

915
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: ones that aren't considered very pro pro us, are are

916
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: are basically letting this happen.

917
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 6: Right.

918
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: That means that there's no effective democracy anywhere in the

919
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: world really, except maybe in a few places where you

920
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: can say, okay, I don't know, Spain, some countries.

921
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: Are island, Yeah, yeah, where even even.

922
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: Those countries, I don't think they're they're doing it as

923
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 3: much as as their populations would like them to do.

924
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 5: Right.

925
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: Right, So, again, this idea that the that the that

926
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 3: the West is somehow essentially different from these other countries,

927
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: it's also kind of a lot and it's also something

928
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: it's it's also it's also bogus, and we need to

929
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: we need we need to call bullshit on that as well. Yeah,

930
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: many people have already have already made various arguments, and

931
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 3: there's various ways of making this argument that the Palestinian question,

932
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: the question of God's or the question of the genocide

933
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: is kind of the global question of our time. I

934
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: don't think just because there's a ceasefire that that's.

935
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 2: Going to go away in any way.

936
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: Everything that caused the explosion in the first place is

937
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: still there, right, And I think we're going to keep

938
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 3: seeing mobilizations around this issue. I'm sure we are. The

939
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: crucial question for me is how we connect this to

940
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: other issues, How we connect this to the question of democracy.

941
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 3: Can we connect this to the question of rights for migrants,

942
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 3: how we connect us to the questions of of of

943
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 3: of climate change.

944
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: Right, and and and various people are already doing that.

945
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: So I'm not saying this is something that that people

946
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: aren't working on, but this is, this is this is

947
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: kind of the challenge for for our time and this podcast,

948
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: this project is is you know, just just you know,

949
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: one small part of that mosaic, which is looking into

950
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 3: the ideology that framed the Chords after Abraham and again

951
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: thinking about how we can not just debunk that ideology

952
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: and say, oh this is it's not about this, it's

953
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: about that, but also about how we can read those

954
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 3: stories in a different way and sort of yeah, exactly,

955
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 3: to subvert it intimate and to read those stories in

956
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: a way that that makes progressive sense.

957
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: Now, that's I'm really looking forward to listening to the

958
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: other episodes, not just my own.

959
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you sound a little more convinced now than

960
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: you did. It after we interviewed you, I'm being really nice. No,

961
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: I'm just you're being hospitable like Abraham exactly. It's in

962
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: my blood.

963
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 4: When we played it live, someone came up to me

964
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: afterwards and was like, you know, I agree with Donna, right,

965
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 4: And I was like, no.

966
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 5: I think we all agree, Like that's kind of the point.

967
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 5: I think we all agree on the basics here. The

968
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 5: other part is just sitting in the cringe, as Madan says, oh.

969
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 6: Nice, yeah, basing basting in the cringe, yeah, basting in

970
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 6: the cringe here, and trying to find our way out

971
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 6: of like a bad mushroom trip hallucination where you can

972
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 6: do things like pretend that the Palestinians don't exist.

973
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that's that's We're trying to be the

974
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 4: orange juice that's supposed to get you out.

975
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 5: Of the you know, of a bad much person.

976
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: How do they hangover whatever? And yeah, the trip.

977
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I don't do drugs. I don't understand anyway.

978
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much. This has been a very

979
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: interesting episode. And yeah, I'll link in the show notes

980
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: for for listeners all of the things mentioned.

981
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, more soon.

982
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, episode episode one is already out by the time

983
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: your listeners hear this, I think episode two might already

984
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: be out as well. Okay, in episode two, we kind

985
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: of go into the into the into the backstory. Episode

986
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 3: one was was with you and we talked about the

987
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: chords themselves. Episode two we start.

988
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: Digging into those into those warm holes of the Abraham.

989
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 3: The story interesting and we when we talked to people

990
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 3: in Jerusalem again, Ben mentioned this, both Palestinians and Israelis.

991
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 2: We went and we went out and asked.

992
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 3: Them what they thought about Abraham Accords and why they

993
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: thought it was named after Abraham.

994
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited to listen to that. Thank you

995
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: all right, thanks guys, thanks for having us on.

996
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.

997
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,479
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

998
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

999
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1000
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1001
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: Can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed

1002
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: directly in episode descriptions.

1003
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.