WEBVTT - Chet van Duzer on Sea Monsters 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.840 My welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:14.280 I Heart Radios, How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.440 Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.680 My normal co host, Robert Lamb is not with us today. 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.160 He's off on vacation at the other side of the 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:26.960 Haunted Sea. So instead I'm bringing you an interview today 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.760 that I did with an expert on maps and sea monsters. 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.920 Sea Monsters seemed appropriate for this time of year. Uh. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.000 This expert is named Chet van Douser, and I think 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.159 you're really going to enjoy this interview, so to introduce 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.680 him here, Chet band User is a researcher in residence 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.760 at the John Carter Brown Library and a board member 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.840 of the Lazarus Project of the University of Rochester, which 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:53.040 brings multi spectral imaging to cultural institutions around the world. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.400 He's published extensively on medieval and Renaissance maps. In addition 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.680 to his book Sea Monsters on Medieval and Renais Son's Maps, 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.600 which was published by British Library, and his book The 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.880 World for a King. Pierre de Scalier's Map of fifteen 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.640 fifty was published in by the British Library and in 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.959 sen Brill published a book he co authored with Ilia Dines, 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.160 Apocalyptic Cartography Thematic Maps in the End of the World 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.679 in a fifteenth century manuscript. In Springer published his book 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:30.720 Henricus Martelis's World Map at Yale Multi Spectral Imaging Sources 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:35.360 and influence. His current project is a book about cartographic cartouches. 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.280 And without any further Ado, let's get right into the 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:43.560 interview about sea monsters. Chad van Duser, Welcome to the show. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:45.920 It's a pleasure to have you here to talk about 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.400 sea monsters and maps of the Medieval and Renaissance period. 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.800 Would you start just by introducing yourself, maybe talk a 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.280 little bit about your background and what got you interested 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.360 in maps. Yes, well, Joe first, thanks for having me. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.559 It's a pleasure to be here. Um. And as as 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.360 far as my background with maps, I had studied mathematics 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:12.720 and English literature and Ancient Greek and Latin at Berkeley, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.000 and it took me a while to find maps as 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.600 it were, uh, and it was at a very specific moment. 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.480 I was at the Vatican Museums just as a tourist, 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.080 and they had a manuscript of Ptolemy's geography on display 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.480 and The manuscript was from the middle of the fifteenth century, 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.880 but it had had a map added to it, another 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:38.119 map painted on blank pages in about fifteen thirty. And 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.240 that map had a very very interesting, totally hypothetical southern 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:46.040 continent and which, even though it was labeled Terra and Cognita, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.799 was full of place names, and it also had a 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.320 very unusual shape. And so I wanted to learn more 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.400 about that, where this strange shape might have come from, 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.000 where all these place names might have come from. And 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.079 so that was when I got interested in maps. And uh, 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.200 it was in another institution in Europe where I got 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.799 interested in sea monsters. And in fact it was another 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:14.400 manuscript of Potlemy's geography. Um. I was at the National 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:19.280 Library of Spain, and uh they have I knew they 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.639 had a manuscript of Plemy's geography, and I wanted to 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.440 see it. And when I opened the manuscript, I saw 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.320 that all of the maps had sea monsters on them, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.880 lots and lots of sea monsters, in fact, more than 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:38.560 any other manuscript I've since encountered. And I thought, and 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.440 these these monsters were not mentioned in the literature about 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.400 this manuscript, So I thought I should write an article 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.760 about the monsters in this manuscript, and the article kept 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:53.000 growing and growing, growing, and then finally a colleague, Katharine 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.680 Delano Smith, pointed out that it would make more sense 0:03:55.680 --> 0:04:00.560 as a book, and she was absolutely right. Well, I 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.960 just wanted to say, I've really loved this book. Uh, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.040 it's full of fascinating stuff. Before we get directly into 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.120 the sea monsters, I wondered if you might want to 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:13.160 talk a little bit more generally about historical cartography. Um, 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.719 what is it that you can learn about a group 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.000 of people from the past, from another time in place 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.680 by looking at the maps they made, that you might 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:26.839 not learn by looking at other things. Yes? Well, all 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:33.520 too often historical maps are just used as illustrations for books, 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:38.000 for historical books, for example, but others as well, whereas 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:44.360 in fact um maps. Historical maps often contain historical evidence 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:49.440 uh that is not preserved in other sources, and and 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.239 be for any number of reasons. But just to mention 0:04:53.320 --> 0:05:00.520 one example, the earliest surviving European illustration of an apossum 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.719 occurs on Martin Valtim Miller's cart Marina of fifteen sixteen, 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:12.320 and there certainly were no doubt earlier European depictions of 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.039 the Apossum, which was regarded as a marvel because it 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.320 was the first marsupial that Europeans had encountered. There certainly 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.640 were earlier depictions, but as it happened, they don't survive, 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.279 and thus, as it happens, the earliest surviving depiction is 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:31.240 on a map, and this happens much more frequently than 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:38.000 one might suspect. And uh, a large and detailed map 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.960 can have a little bit of an encyclopedia encyclopedic character 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.560 to it and thus preserves information of both both textual 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:54.279 and graphical from various sources. And and sometimes considering the 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.719 historical evidence offered by maps is is really essential in 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.479 constructing a history oracle argument? Does looking at ancient maps 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:06.520 also give you a better idea of the kind of 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.600 the texture of the worldview of ancient people, like what 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.719 they felt about the broader world, especially places far away 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:19.240 from them. It does. Um. It can be difficult to 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.280 try to go from a map to what the cartographer 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:28.640 was thinking, but in some cases making that that trans 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.560 that that jump is possible. Um And in fact, monsters 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.359 play into precisely that aspect of maps, in the sense 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.799 that it was generally thought that the most distant parts 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:47.000 of the world were the parts filled with monsters, and 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:51.920 and the fact that that's often the case on maps 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.440 is very clear graphic evidence of that that thought about 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.560 the sort of structure of the world. I think maybe 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.599 we should get into our discussion of sea monsters just 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.520 by having you describe a couple of your favorite examples. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.680 So when you think about your favorite medieval or Renaissance 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.680 maps with sea monsters on them, what do they show 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:14.920 and what do we know about the circumstances under which 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.200 these maps were made? Yes, well, one of them, one 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.960 of my favorite maps are in this case an atlas 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.840 involving sea monsters is precisely that manuscript of Ptolemy's geography 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:31.200 in the National Library of Spain. And as is often 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.440 the case, we we know we we don't have textual 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:39.240 evidence about the creation of that manuscript. We don't have 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:44.320 a document that that goes through what the person who 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.480 commissioned the manuscript wanted from it um. But if one 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.480 looks a variety of manuscripts of told muse geography, and 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.480 one can do the same thing with nautical charts, one 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.120 begins to get the impression that in commissioning the creation 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.160 of a work like this, that a wealthy person had 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.720 many different options, and many of those options related to 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.000 the decoration of the maps. And we do have one 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:17.080 contract for the creation of medieval maps, and it does 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.000 talk specifically about the decoration and even the exact number 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.480 of trees that were to be painted on the map. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:30.000 And I think we have to imagine something similar happening 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:35.760 with sea monsters, that this was an optional decorative element. UH. 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.640 One could have a very plain manuscript of Ptolemy's geography 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.360 or nautical chart, or one could have a more elaborately 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:50.520 decorated one, and the sea monsters were one of those 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.480 optional elements. So when we see sea monsters on anautical 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.719 chart or a manuscript of Ptlemy's geography, we know that 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:04.800 the person commissioning MAPUH was someone who wanted more. They 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.920 wanted more, more of the options available, more decoration, and 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.480 more elaborate manuscript. So that's certainly part of what's happening 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:18.840 with that specific manuscript of Ptolemy's geography. But I have 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.320 the feeling that there's more UH, And again we don't 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.719 have textual evidence to support this, so this is a speculation, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.920 but it seems that whoever whoever was painting the sea 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.520 monsters in the seas of that manuscript took a particularly 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.600 strong interest in the subject because the variety is just 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:43.400 so remarkable. Um, there's not just sirens, there's multiple different 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.600 types of sirens. There are sirens with one tale, sirens 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.040 with two tales, and sirens wearing European clothing. So it 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:55.679 really feels like in this case it was a specialist, 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.720 uh in sea monsters, not just a specialist and painting, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.480 but someone who had a very strong interest in the subject. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.960 So what do you think creates a passion for sea 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.520 monsters in in that kind of period. Uh, it's a 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.720 wonderful question. I mean, is it the same thing that 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.520 makes somebody interested in horror movies today or would it 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.120 be a different kind of interest? Um? I think I 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:27.040 think it was a different interest. So one of the uh, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.600 one of the things that came out in my research 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.920 for this book was so looking at the sea monsters 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:39.280 on medieval and Renaissance maps. They often look fantastical, They 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.840 often look like one things. Surely the cartographer just invented 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.480 this on the spot, But in fact I was able 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.080 to find the sources for a number of the sea 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.520 monsters on medieval and rest once maps, which is to 0:10:54.600 --> 0:11:00.680 say the cartographers were not simply inventing them on the spot. Uh, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:06.440 they were copied from sources that the cartographer would have 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:12.120 had reason to trust, like an illustrated encyclopedia. Um. So, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:18.880 I think sea monsters on maps serve multiple functions, and 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.760 one of them is definitely decoration. But also there was 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.959 a desire to convey information. And I know that can 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.720 sound a little ridiculous when when we look at some 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.240 of these monsters and they do seem utterly fantastical, But 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.680 some of the ones that seem the most fantastic were 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.000 in fact copied from sources that the cartographer would have 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.240 thought reliable. So, yes, there's a decorative element, but at 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:48.439 the same time, there's a uh desire to convey information 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.200 about what is in the sea. Yeah, there are a 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.360 number of examples I was looking at in your book 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.880 where it really does seem like that it's a specific 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.800 practical warning. One that comes to mind is I believe 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.640 you have an example of a thirteen sixty seven nautical 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.720 chart by the brothers Pizza Gani that shows two ships 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.720 in the North Atlantic near the supposed mythical isle of Brazil, 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.720 I think, and they're being attacked by a dragon and 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.840 a giant octopus. And so you could look at that 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:19.840 and say, well, that just looks like maybe they were 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:21.880 trying to liven up some blank space on the map. 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.160 But it comes with a warning. It says, uh, you know, 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.920 while these ships are going to port, dragons and octopuses 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.760 carry all of the crew members off and and leave 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.839 the ships empty, and seems to be warning people who 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.920 are approaching the sport, though I think the port is 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.360 entirely mythical. Is that correct? Yes? Uh, that is in 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:43.840 fact a great example, and it's it's worth emphasizing, uh 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:48.360 that that image of the flying dragon and the giant 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:53.600 octopus attacking the ships is right near, uh, the the 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.640 edge of the map. It's out in the Atlantic, right 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.640 near the as far out in the Atlantic as the 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.520 cart bographer's depiction goes. And I think that's an important 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:08.559 element here that again, the the area where there's a 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.439 limit of knowledge is where monsters tend to be located. 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:17.079 So on that same map, uh, the cartographer does show 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.640 ships navigating evidently safely in the Atlantic, but closer to 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.320 the European mainland. There there's three ships that come out 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.480 of the Strait of Gibraltar and are heading north close 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.320 to the coasts of Spain and France, but then further 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.720 out in the Atlantic, again near the limit of the 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.760 cartographer's knowledge. We have this, as you say, warning about 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.960 monsters attacking ships. Is it also an important distinction that 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.760 this is on a nautical chart as opposed to just 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.240 a decorative map. Um, that's a good question. So very 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.640 unsurprising thing about nautical charts is that the makers we're 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.880 really serving two very different audiences. The cartographer could make 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:08.760 an undecorated nautical chart without the the sea monsters, the 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.760 images of cities, the images of sovereigns, the animals, the 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.720 mountain ranges. And it was that type of undecorated chart 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:21.160 that would be actually used in navigation. So if if 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.400 a chart was decorated with all these images, it would 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.600 be very expensive. They might have used expensive pigments. That 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.000 type of chart would never have been taken to see 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.000 and for one thing, that the ship ship captain couldn't 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.400 have afforded it. UH. And then even if he could, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:41.440 you wouldn't want to subject such a valuable map to UH. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.160 The salt air. Of course, if you're taking a chart 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.560 to you probably want to use it to indicate your course. Um. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.840 So the same misers of nautical charts were on the 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.920 one hand serving a practical market, that is, a people 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.680 who actually used the charts to navigate, and those would 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.840 have been the undecora rated charts. And at the same 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.240 time they were serving this market of nobles, rich nobles 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:12.040 who who wanted the very elaborately decorated charts for collection 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.520 and display as as symbols of their worldly knowledge and power. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.800 So maybe we should talk about the definition of what 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.800 what makes a sea monster? Um? You know what, we 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.880 know that there are many natural life forms, such as whales, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.520 that have commonly been interpreted as sea monsters throughout history. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.320 In fact, one of my favorite parts of your book 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.720 was you just got a spread over a couple of 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:42.720 pages that's illustrations of walruses as sea monsters. Uh. They're 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.200 just they look amazing. Um. So how does that sort 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:52.200 of that natural life form category blur with mythological terrors 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:58.480 like you know, like the kraken or Leviathan or the sirens. Yes, Um, well, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.840 defining defining the word monster is very problematic. Um. And 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.480 me evil and Renaissance authors who tried to define the 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:14.720 word disagreed. Um. So some held that a monster was 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:19.680 something against nature in some way, whereas others held that 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.880 that a monster was as fearsome as it was, was 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.400 nonetheless of a part of God's plan for the world, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.880 an integral part of God's plan for the world is 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.960 as strange as it seems. So people who tried to 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.720 define monsters differed in very fundamental ways, and it remains 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:45.160 a word that's difficult to define today, I think. And 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.240 then also there's the fact that as you as you 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:54.160 were hinting at that, the definition of monster changes over time. So, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:17:01.520 as you said, Wales were throughout the Middle Ages and 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.879 and much of the Renaissance regarded as monsters, and in 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.600 in that that spread the two pages you mentioned, Uh, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.280 with the walrus is um, there's a map from I 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:19.720 believe it's that explicitly identifies the walrus as a monster. 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.840 And yet today, uh, you know, for us, a whale 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.159 is the furthest thing from a monster. It's a noble, 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.520 intelligent creature that's to be preserved. And I also think 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.399 that we would we would not characterize a walrus as 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.280 a monster either, um. And it's interesting to think about 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.919 ways that that definition will continue to evolve, how things 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.160 today we think of as monstrous in the future, ideas 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.600 may may continue to change about those things. Well. One 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.159 thing that was funny to me about the the idea 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.480 of walrus as a monster is that it is a 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.919 natural life form that has many of the morphological characteristics 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.040 that are often attributed falsely to monsters, Like it has 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.159 the tusks, it has the briskly facial hair you know 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.480 that we see on I think there are a bunch 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.960 of whales depicted in your book, um that have facial 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.240 hair of some kind, like a mustache. Um. So anyway, 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.679 I thought that was a funny point in comparison, So 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.560 you've talked about the idea that that sometimes monsters on 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:31.280 maps could be used as a literal warning, like information 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.240 given to sailors. You know, you might not want to 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.280 travel here because there's a map. They could more often probably, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.680 or maybe you can say whether it be more often 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.359 or not. They would just be decorations that would be 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.960 commissioned by somebody who was looking for a spicier map, 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.159 maybe something that has more character to it and shows 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.720 more worldly knowledge. About what lives there. But what might 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.800 be other economic demands for for sea monsters on maps 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.240 if any? Yes, Well, as I was saying earlier, it's 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.240 because sea monsters serve often serve more than one function 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.960 on maps that can be both decoration UH and an 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.919 attempt to indicate what's actually living in the ocean. It 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:19.040 can be difficult to divine what the cartographers UH wishes 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.920 were or aims were in placing sea monsters on maps, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.640 how much it might have been motivated, for example, by 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.760 the the commissioning the maps wish to have a very 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.160 heavily decorated map, and how much it was motivated by 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.280 a wish to to to convey information about what's in 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.880 the oceans. But there's one map in particular, and it's 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.879 uh one of the most spectacular and interesting UH maps 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.760 for a collection of of images of sea monsters, which 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:56.960 is allows Magnus is Carton Marina of nine, which is 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.800 really just spectacular in terms of sea monsters, and so 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.439 was my favorite, by the way, Yeah, well with good reason. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.960 So that the map shows Scandinavia, and then the water 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.359 is off Scandinavia and the waters are full of sea monsters, 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:18.399 and a colleague of mine has suggested that there was 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.119 an additional function, intended function of the sea monsters on 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:26.760 this map, and that was to scare away fisherman from 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:32.440 other nations, leaving the abundant catch from the northern waters 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:37.080 to the fishermen of Scandinavia. And I think that's really 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:43.160 uh wonderful suggestion about a possible function of sea monsters. Well, 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:46.399 one possibility that occurred to me. I mean, I was 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.880 wondering if you ever came across something like this. This 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.680 might touch on an episode you cover in the book 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.760 about the flying turtle, but I was thinking about the 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.760 concept in cartography of a trap street, like the idea 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.919 of a a fake feature added to a map to 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.800 sort of enforce copyright. I wonder if a sea monster 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:13.000 has ever been used for this purpose, not to my knowledge. 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:18.200 And perhaps part of that would be that in the 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:23.960 Middle Ages and Renaissance, the ideas about what one was 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:29.040 permitted to copy. Uh, we're very different, right, Uh, So 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.000 there was this great freedom and there there was no 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:38.200 no blame associated with copying. Uh many different elements of 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.840 of maps and literary works and other things. So um, 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.280 because of that, it's it's difficult for me to imagine 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.080 sea monster being used that way at least, yeah, at 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.520 least in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. I guess the 0:21:54.560 --> 0:22:00.800 timeline in lineups, but they go back to the example 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:04.560 of the walrus. I mean, it's very interesting to watch 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.520 basically the evolution of the image of the walrus uh 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.840 from the early sixteenth century to to the end of 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.760 that century. So Martin Vauti Miller on his Carter Marina, 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.879 different map with the same name, depicted the walrus much 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.600 like an elephant, which seems very surprising. It's a preacher 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.320 that looks like an elephant, but it's very clearly labeled walrus. 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.840 And what must have happened is that someone said, well, 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.840 the walrus has tusks like an elephant, and the artist, 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.280 not knowing what better to do, depicted the creature like 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:44.280 an elephant. And this error had remarkable life through maps. 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.600 It was copied again and again, and over time the 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:53.720 image gradually became um somewhat more lifelike, but it was 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.280 a slow process. All right, we're going to take a 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.240 quick break, but we'll be right back with more of 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:06.720 the interview. And we're back. Maybe we should talk about 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.520 a few individual features that. Uh, that that I enjoyed 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.000 from your book, that popped up on several maps. Uh. 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.960 So one is the idea of sirens. Could you speak 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.000 at link a little bit about sirens, what they represent 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:24.719 and and why they show up on so many maps. Yes. Well, Uh, 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:30.000 the myth of the siren goes back to Homer's Honyessey 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.600 and he talks about these female creatures that live on 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:40.000 an island and they sing as sailors passed by and 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:43.080 their ships, and the their song is so powerful that 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:46.760 it attracts the sailors to the island and then they 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:54.119 die there. Um. And over time the image of sirens evolved, 0:23:54.880 --> 0:24:00.480 as often happens with mythical creatures. And there's a important 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:05.040 world map from about fourteen sixty that shows three different 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:09.800 kinds of sirens in the Indian Ocean, and it shows 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:12.840 them graphically, and then there's a descriptive text that talks 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:18.240 about these three different kinds. And one is half woman bird, 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:22.040 which is I think the most common way sirens are depicted. 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:26.320 Another is half woman half fish, and then another is 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:29.439 half woman half horse, which is very unusual. And that 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.160 that that one does not appear on many other maps. 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:34.640 But it's a horse with two legs, isn't it? That 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:36.920 never is a horse with two lights made a less 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:41.840 sense to me than your standard center. That's right, But yeah, 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:46.240 the the siren had a very long life on maps 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.880 and is certainly one of the most common sea monsters 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:55.040 depicted on maps. If a map is only only depicts 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:58.000 two sea monsters, that the chances are pretty good that 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.560 one of them will be a siren. H One of 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.240 my favorites from your book, definitely the scariest looking one 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.520 to me in the whole book, was a humanoid sea 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:12.760 monster from Urbano, Montese manuscript outlas of that was just 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:16.400 like the top half of a man, but just depicted 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.159 in a horrifying way, with red eyes, reaching after a 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:22.359 ship with these claw like hands. Uh. Do you have 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:26.240 any more knowledge about what's going on there? Uh? I 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:33.720 wish I could say yes, I have suspicions. Um, so 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:38.040 the location of that monster on I think they're on 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:42.159 Urbano Monsters maps. That monster appears twice, and one of 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.679 them is near the southern tip of Africa, if I 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:53.520 recall correctly. And in the National Epic of Portugal, there's 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.440 uh this this giant who lives near the southern tip 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:02.320 of Africa, and and sort of his purpose in life 0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:05.640 is to make the passage around the tip of Africa difficult. 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:10.360 And I have wondered whether there might be some connection 0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:15.000 between this giant figure emerging from the water with these 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:20.199 huge claws and red eyes might have some connection with 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:24.920 that myth, but I haven't been able to find any 0:26:24.960 --> 0:26:28.879 evidence to substantiate that. Oh well, that naturally makes me 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:31.800 wonder about the connection between the origins of sea monster 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:36.240 myths and uh, just natural phenomena like weather places where 0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:40.000 there's often bad weather for sea voyages or treacherous passages 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:45.000 because of rocks or whatever else. Yes, uh, and I 0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:49.600 I wish it were there were more evidence connecting those things. 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:53.240 So I think you're absolutely right to to suspect that 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:57.280 there is often a connection between a physical danger and 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:02.440 the presence of monsters U. And one example of that 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.440 is in the Strait of Messina, which was mythologized this 0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:10.720 difficult straight between Sicily and and and mainland Italy, and 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:15.200 there was it was mythologized as having two monsters there, 0:27:15.880 --> 0:27:21.080 which is a way of representing the danger um In 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:27.160