1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: My welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios, How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: My normal co host, Robert Lamb is not with us today. 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: He's off on vacation at the other side of the 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: Haunted Sea. So instead I'm bringing you an interview today 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: that I did with an expert on maps and sea monsters. 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: Sea Monsters seemed appropriate for this time of year. Uh. 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: This expert is named Chet van Douser, and I think 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: you're really going to enjoy this interview, so to introduce 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: him here, Chet band User is a researcher in residence 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: at the John Carter Brown Library and a board member 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: of the Lazarus Project of the University of Rochester, which 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: brings multi spectral imaging to cultural institutions around the world. 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: He's published extensively on medieval and Renaissance maps. In addition 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: to his book Sea Monsters on Medieval and Renais Son's Maps, 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: which was published by British Library, and his book The 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: World for a King. Pierre de Scalier's Map of fifteen 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: fifty was published in by the British Library and in 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: sen Brill published a book he co authored with Ilia Dines, 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: Apocalyptic Cartography Thematic Maps in the End of the World 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: in a fifteenth century manuscript. In Springer published his book 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: Henricus Martelis's World Map at Yale Multi Spectral Imaging Sources 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: and influence. His current project is a book about cartographic cartouches. 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: And without any further Ado, let's get right into the 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: interview about sea monsters. Chad van Duser, Welcome to the show. 27 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you here to talk about 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: sea monsters and maps of the Medieval and Renaissance period. 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: Would you start just by introducing yourself, maybe talk a 30 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: little bit about your background and what got you interested 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: in maps. Yes, well, Joe first, thanks for having me. 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to be here. Um. And as as 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: far as my background with maps, I had studied mathematics 34 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: and English literature and Ancient Greek and Latin at Berkeley, 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: and it took me a while to find maps as 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: it were, uh, and it was at a very specific moment. 37 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: I was at the Vatican Museums just as a tourist, 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: and they had a manuscript of Ptolemy's geography on display 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: and The manuscript was from the middle of the fifteenth century, 40 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: but it had had a map added to it, another 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: map painted on blank pages in about fifteen thirty. And 42 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: that map had a very very interesting, totally hypothetical southern 43 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: continent and which, even though it was labeled Terra and Cognita, 44 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: was full of place names, and it also had a 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: very unusual shape. And so I wanted to learn more 46 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: about that, where this strange shape might have come from, 47 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: where all these place names might have come from. And 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: so that was when I got interested in maps. And uh, 49 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: it was in another institution in Europe where I got 50 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: interested in sea monsters. And in fact it was another 51 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: manuscript of Potlemy's geography. Um. I was at the National 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: Library of Spain, and uh they have I knew they 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: had a manuscript of Plemy's geography, and I wanted to 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: see it. And when I opened the manuscript, I saw 55 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: that all of the maps had sea monsters on them, 56 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: lots and lots of sea monsters, in fact, more than 57 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: any other manuscript I've since encountered. And I thought, and 58 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: these these monsters were not mentioned in the literature about 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: this manuscript, So I thought I should write an article 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: about the monsters in this manuscript, and the article kept 61 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: growing and growing, growing, and then finally a colleague, Katharine 62 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: Delano Smith, pointed out that it would make more sense 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: as a book, and she was absolutely right. Well, I 64 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: just wanted to say, I've really loved this book. Uh, 65 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: it's full of fascinating stuff. Before we get directly into 66 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: the sea monsters, I wondered if you might want to 67 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more generally about historical cartography. Um, 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: what is it that you can learn about a group 69 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: of people from the past, from another time in place 70 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: by looking at the maps they made, that you might 71 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: not learn by looking at other things. Yes? Well, all 72 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: too often historical maps are just used as illustrations for books, 73 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: for historical books, for example, but others as well, whereas 74 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: in fact um maps. Historical maps often contain historical evidence 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: uh that is not preserved in other sources, and and 76 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: be for any number of reasons. But just to mention 77 00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: one example, the earliest surviving European illustration of an apossum 78 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: occurs on Martin Valtim Miller's cart Marina of fifteen sixteen, 79 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: and there certainly were no doubt earlier European depictions of 80 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: the Apossum, which was regarded as a marvel because it 81 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: was the first marsupial that Europeans had encountered. There certainly 82 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: were earlier depictions, but as it happened, they don't survive, 83 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: and thus, as it happens, the earliest surviving depiction is 84 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: on a map, and this happens much more frequently than 85 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: one might suspect. And uh, a large and detailed map 86 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: can have a little bit of an encyclopedia encyclopedic character 87 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: to it and thus preserves information of both both textual 88 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: and graphical from various sources. And and sometimes considering the 89 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: historical evidence offered by maps is is really essential in 90 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: constructing a history oracle argument? Does looking at ancient maps 91 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: also give you a better idea of the kind of 92 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: the texture of the worldview of ancient people, like what 93 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: they felt about the broader world, especially places far away 94 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: from them. It does. Um. It can be difficult to 95 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: try to go from a map to what the cartographer 96 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: was thinking, but in some cases making that that trans 97 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: that that jump is possible. Um And in fact, monsters 98 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: play into precisely that aspect of maps, in the sense 99 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: that it was generally thought that the most distant parts 100 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: of the world were the parts filled with monsters, and 101 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: and the fact that that's often the case on maps 102 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: is very clear graphic evidence of that that thought about 103 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: the sort of structure of the world. I think maybe 104 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: we should get into our discussion of sea monsters just 105 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: by having you describe a couple of your favorite examples. 106 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: So when you think about your favorite medieval or Renaissance 107 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: maps with sea monsters on them, what do they show 108 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: and what do we know about the circumstances under which 109 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: these maps were made? Yes, well, one of them, one 110 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: of my favorite maps are in this case an atlas 111 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: involving sea monsters is precisely that manuscript of Ptolemy's geography 112 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: in the National Library of Spain. And as is often 113 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the case, we we know we we don't have textual 114 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: evidence about the creation of that manuscript. We don't have 115 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: a document that that goes through what the person who 116 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: commissioned the manuscript wanted from it um. But if one 117 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: looks a variety of manuscripts of told muse geography, and 118 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: one can do the same thing with nautical charts, one 119 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: begins to get the impression that in commissioning the creation 120 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: of a work like this, that a wealthy person had 121 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: many different options, and many of those options related to 122 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: the decoration of the maps. And we do have one 123 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: contract for the creation of medieval maps, and it does 124 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: talk specifically about the decoration and even the exact number 125 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: of trees that were to be painted on the map. 126 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: And I think we have to imagine something similar happening 127 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: with sea monsters, that this was an optional decorative element. UH. 128 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: One could have a very plain manuscript of Ptolemy's geography 129 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: or nautical chart, or one could have a more elaborately 130 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: decorated one, and the sea monsters were one of those 131 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: optional elements. So when we see sea monsters on anautical 132 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: chart or a manuscript of Ptlemy's geography, we know that 133 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the person commissioning MAPUH was someone who wanted more. They 134 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: wanted more, more of the options available, more decoration, and 135 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: more elaborate manuscript. So that's certainly part of what's happening 136 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: with that specific manuscript of Ptolemy's geography. But I have 137 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: the feeling that there's more UH, And again we don't 138 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: have textual evidence to support this, so this is a speculation, 139 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: but it seems that whoever whoever was painting the sea 140 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: monsters in the seas of that manuscript took a particularly 141 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: strong interest in the subject because the variety is just 142 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: so remarkable. Um, there's not just sirens, there's multiple different 143 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: types of sirens. There are sirens with one tale, sirens 144 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: with two tales, and sirens wearing European clothing. So it 145 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: really feels like in this case it was a specialist, 146 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: uh in sea monsters, not just a specialist and painting, 147 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: but someone who had a very strong interest in the subject. 148 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: So what do you think creates a passion for sea 149 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: monsters in in that kind of period. Uh, it's a 150 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: wonderful question. I mean, is it the same thing that 151 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: makes somebody interested in horror movies today or would it 152 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: be a different kind of interest? Um? I think I 153 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: think it was a different interest. So one of the uh, 154 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that came out in my research 155 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: for this book was so looking at the sea monsters 156 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: on medieval and Renaissance maps. They often look fantastical, They 157 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: often look like one things. Surely the cartographer just invented 158 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: this on the spot, But in fact I was able 159 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: to find the sources for a number of the sea 160 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: monsters on medieval and rest once maps, which is to 161 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: say the cartographers were not simply inventing them on the spot. Uh, 162 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: they were copied from sources that the cartographer would have 163 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: had reason to trust, like an illustrated encyclopedia. Um. So, 164 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: I think sea monsters on maps serve multiple functions, and 165 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: one of them is definitely decoration. But also there was 166 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: a desire to convey information. And I know that can 167 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: sound a little ridiculous when when we look at some 168 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: of these monsters and they do seem utterly fantastical, But 169 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: some of the ones that seem the most fantastic were 170 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: in fact copied from sources that the cartographer would have 171 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: thought reliable. So, yes, there's a decorative element, but at 172 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: the same time, there's a uh desire to convey information 173 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: about what is in the sea. Yeah, there are a 174 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: number of examples I was looking at in your book 175 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: where it really does seem like that it's a specific 176 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: practical warning. One that comes to mind is I believe 177 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: you have an example of a thirteen sixty seven nautical 178 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: chart by the brothers Pizza Gani that shows two ships 179 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: in the North Atlantic near the supposed mythical isle of Brazil, 180 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: I think, and they're being attacked by a dragon and 181 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: a giant octopus. And so you could look at that 182 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: and say, well, that just looks like maybe they were 183 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: trying to liven up some blank space on the map. 184 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: But it comes with a warning. It says, uh, you know, 185 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: while these ships are going to port, dragons and octopuses 186 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: carry all of the crew members off and and leave 187 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: the ships empty, and seems to be warning people who 188 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: are approaching the sport, though I think the port is 189 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: entirely mythical. Is that correct? Yes? Uh, that is in 190 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: fact a great example, and it's it's worth emphasizing, uh 191 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: that that image of the flying dragon and the giant 192 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: octopus attacking the ships is right near, uh, the the 193 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: edge of the map. It's out in the Atlantic, right 194 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: near the as far out in the Atlantic as the 195 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: cart bographer's depiction goes. And I think that's an important 196 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: element here that again, the the area where there's a 197 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: limit of knowledge is where monsters tend to be located. 198 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: So on that same map, uh, the cartographer does show 199 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: ships navigating evidently safely in the Atlantic, but closer to 200 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: the European mainland. There there's three ships that come out 201 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: of the Strait of Gibraltar and are heading north close 202 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: to the coasts of Spain and France, but then further 203 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: out in the Atlantic, again near the limit of the 204 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: cartographer's knowledge. We have this, as you say, warning about 205 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: monsters attacking ships. Is it also an important distinction that 206 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: this is on a nautical chart as opposed to just 207 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: a decorative map. Um, that's a good question. So very 208 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: unsurprising thing about nautical charts is that the makers we're 209 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: really serving two very different audiences. The cartographer could make 210 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: an undecorated nautical chart without the the sea monsters, the 211 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: images of cities, the images of sovereigns, the animals, the 212 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: mountain ranges. And it was that type of undecorated chart 213 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: that would be actually used in navigation. So if if 214 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: a chart was decorated with all these images, it would 215 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: be very expensive. They might have used expensive pigments. That 216 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: type of chart would never have been taken to see 217 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: and for one thing, that the ship ship captain couldn't 218 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: have afforded it. UH. And then even if he could, 219 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to subject such a valuable map to UH. 220 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: The salt air. Of course, if you're taking a chart 221 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: to you probably want to use it to indicate your course. Um. 222 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: So the same misers of nautical charts were on the 223 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: one hand serving a practical market, that is, a people 224 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: who actually used the charts to navigate, and those would 225 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: have been the undecora rated charts. And at the same 226 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: time they were serving this market of nobles, rich nobles 227 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: who who wanted the very elaborately decorated charts for collection 228 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: and display as as symbols of their worldly knowledge and power. 229 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: So maybe we should talk about the definition of what 230 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: what makes a sea monster? Um? You know what, we 231 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: know that there are many natural life forms, such as whales, 232 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: that have commonly been interpreted as sea monsters throughout history. 233 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: In fact, one of my favorite parts of your book 234 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: was you just got a spread over a couple of 235 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: pages that's illustrations of walruses as sea monsters. Uh. They're 236 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: just they look amazing. Um. So how does that sort 237 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: of that natural life form category blur with mythological terrors 238 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: like you know, like the kraken or Leviathan or the sirens. Yes, Um, well, 239 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: defining defining the word monster is very problematic. Um. And 240 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: me evil and Renaissance authors who tried to define the 241 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: word disagreed. Um. So some held that a monster was 242 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: something against nature in some way, whereas others held that 243 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: that a monster was as fearsome as it was, was 244 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: nonetheless of a part of God's plan for the world, 245 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: an integral part of God's plan for the world is 246 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: as strange as it seems. So people who tried to 247 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: define monsters differed in very fundamental ways, and it remains 248 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: a word that's difficult to define today, I think. And 249 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: then also there's the fact that as you as you 250 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: were hinting at that, the definition of monster changes over time. So, 251 00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: as you said, Wales were throughout the Middle Ages and 252 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: and much of the Renaissance regarded as monsters, and in 253 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: in that that spread the two pages you mentioned, Uh, 254 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: with the walrus is um, there's a map from I 255 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: believe it's that explicitly identifies the walrus as a monster. 256 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: And yet today, uh, you know, for us, a whale 257 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: is the furthest thing from a monster. It's a noble, 258 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: intelligent creature that's to be preserved. And I also think 259 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: that we would we would not characterize a walrus as 260 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: a monster either, um. And it's interesting to think about 261 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: ways that that definition will continue to evolve, how things 262 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: today we think of as monstrous in the future, ideas 263 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: may may continue to change about those things. Well. One 264 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: thing that was funny to me about the the idea 265 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: of walrus as a monster is that it is a 266 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: natural life form that has many of the morphological characteristics 267 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: that are often attributed falsely to monsters, Like it has 268 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: the tusks, it has the briskly facial hair you know 269 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: that we see on I think there are a bunch 270 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: of whales depicted in your book, um that have facial 271 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: hair of some kind, like a mustache. Um. So anyway, 272 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: I thought that was a funny point in comparison, So 273 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: you've talked about the idea that that sometimes monsters on 274 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: maps could be used as a literal warning, like information 275 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: given to sailors. You know, you might not want to 276 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: travel here because there's a map. They could more often probably, 277 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: or maybe you can say whether it be more often 278 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: or not. They would just be decorations that would be 279 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: commissioned by somebody who was looking for a spicier map, 280 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: maybe something that has more character to it and shows 281 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: more worldly knowledge. About what lives there. But what might 282 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: be other economic demands for for sea monsters on maps 283 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: if any? Yes, Well, as I was saying earlier, it's 284 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: because sea monsters serve often serve more than one function 285 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: on maps that can be both decoration UH and an 286 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: attempt to indicate what's actually living in the ocean. It 287 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: can be difficult to divine what the cartographers UH wishes 288 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: were or aims were in placing sea monsters on maps, 289 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: how much it might have been motivated, for example, by 290 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: the the commissioning the maps wish to have a very 291 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: heavily decorated map, and how much it was motivated by 292 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: a wish to to to convey information about what's in 293 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: the oceans. But there's one map in particular, and it's 294 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: uh one of the most spectacular and interesting UH maps 295 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: for a collection of of images of sea monsters, which 296 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: is allows Magnus is Carton Marina of nine, which is 297 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: really just spectacular in terms of sea monsters, and so 298 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: was my favorite, by the way, Yeah, well with good reason. 299 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: So that the map shows Scandinavia, and then the water 300 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: is off Scandinavia and the waters are full of sea monsters, 301 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: and a colleague of mine has suggested that there was 302 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: an additional function, intended function of the sea monsters on 303 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: this map, and that was to scare away fisherman from 304 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: other nations, leaving the abundant catch from the northern waters 305 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: to the fishermen of Scandinavia. And I think that's really 306 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: uh wonderful suggestion about a possible function of sea monsters. Well, 307 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: one possibility that occurred to me. I mean, I was 308 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: wondering if you ever came across something like this. This 309 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: might touch on an episode you cover in the book 310 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: about the flying turtle, but I was thinking about the 311 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: concept in cartography of a trap street, like the idea 312 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: of a a fake feature added to a map to 313 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: sort of enforce copyright. I wonder if a sea monster 314 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: has ever been used for this purpose, not to my knowledge. 315 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: And perhaps part of that would be that in the 316 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: Middle Ages and Renaissance, the ideas about what one was 317 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: permitted to copy. Uh, we're very different, right, Uh, So 318 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: there was this great freedom and there there was no 319 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: no blame associated with copying. Uh many different elements of 320 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: of maps and literary works and other things. So um, 321 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: because of that, it's it's difficult for me to imagine 322 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: sea monster being used that way at least, yeah, at 323 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: least in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. I guess the 324 00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: timeline in lineups, but they go back to the example 325 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: of the walrus. I mean, it's very interesting to watch 326 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: basically the evolution of the image of the walrus uh 327 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: from the early sixteenth century to to the end of 328 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that century. So Martin Vauti Miller on his Carter Marina, 329 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: different map with the same name, depicted the walrus much 330 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: like an elephant, which seems very surprising. It's a preacher 331 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: that looks like an elephant, but it's very clearly labeled walrus. 332 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: And what must have happened is that someone said, well, 333 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: the walrus has tusks like an elephant, and the artist, 334 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: not knowing what better to do, depicted the creature like 335 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: an elephant. And this error had remarkable life through maps. 336 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: It was copied again and again, and over time the 337 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: image gradually became um somewhat more lifelike, but it was 338 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: a slow process. All right, we're going to take a 339 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with more of 340 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: the interview. And we're back. Maybe we should talk about 341 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: a few individual features that. Uh, that that I enjoyed 342 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: from your book, that popped up on several maps. Uh. 343 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: So one is the idea of sirens. Could you speak 344 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: at link a little bit about sirens, what they represent 345 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 1: and and why they show up on so many maps. Yes. Well, Uh, 346 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: the myth of the siren goes back to Homer's Honyessey 347 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: and he talks about these female creatures that live on 348 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: an island and they sing as sailors passed by and 349 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: their ships, and the their song is so powerful that 350 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: it attracts the sailors to the island and then they 351 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: die there. Um. And over time the image of sirens evolved, 352 00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: as often happens with mythical creatures. And there's a important 353 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: world map from about fourteen sixty that shows three different 354 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: kinds of sirens in the Indian Ocean, and it shows 355 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: them graphically, and then there's a descriptive text that talks 356 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: about these three different kinds. And one is half woman bird, 357 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: which is I think the most common way sirens are depicted. 358 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: Another is half woman half fish, and then another is 359 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: half woman half horse, which is very unusual. And that 360 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: that that one does not appear on many other maps. 361 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: But it's a horse with two legs, isn't it? That 362 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: never is a horse with two lights made a less 363 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: sense to me than your standard center. That's right, But yeah, 364 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: the the siren had a very long life on maps 365 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: and is certainly one of the most common sea monsters 366 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: depicted on maps. If a map is only only depicts 367 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: two sea monsters, that the chances are pretty good that 368 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: one of them will be a siren. H One of 369 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: my favorites from your book, definitely the scariest looking one 370 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: to me in the whole book, was a humanoid sea 371 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: monster from Urbano, Montese manuscript outlas of that was just 372 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: like the top half of a man, but just depicted 373 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: in a horrifying way, with red eyes, reaching after a 374 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: ship with these claw like hands. Uh. Do you have 375 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: any more knowledge about what's going on there? Uh? I 376 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: wish I could say yes, I have suspicions. Um, so 377 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: the location of that monster on I think they're on 378 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: Urbano Monsters maps. That monster appears twice, and one of 379 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: them is near the southern tip of Africa, if I 380 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: recall correctly. And in the National Epic of Portugal, there's 381 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: uh this this giant who lives near the southern tip 382 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: of Africa, and and sort of his purpose in life 383 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: is to make the passage around the tip of Africa difficult. 384 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 1: And I have wondered whether there might be some connection 385 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: between this giant figure emerging from the water with these 386 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: huge claws and red eyes might have some connection with 387 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: that myth, but I haven't been able to find any 388 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: evidence to substantiate that. Oh well, that naturally makes me 389 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: wonder about the connection between the origins of sea monster 390 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: myths and uh, just natural phenomena like weather places where 391 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: there's often bad weather for sea voyages or treacherous passages 392 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: because of rocks or whatever else. Yes, uh, and I 393 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: I wish it were there were more evidence connecting those things. 394 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: So I think you're absolutely right to to suspect that 395 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: there is often a connection between a physical danger and 396 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: the presence of monsters U. And one example of that 397 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: is in the Strait of Messina, which was mythologized this 398 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: difficult straight between Sicily and and and mainland Italy, and 399 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: there was it was mythologized as having two monsters there, 400 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: which is a way of representing the danger um In 401 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: other cases, it's one can with good reasons suspect that connection, 402 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: but I think it's more difficult to define someone who 403 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: clearly says that this is why that monster was depicted there. Um. 404 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: But but thinking about the geography of of sea monsters, 405 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: one one area on maps, medieval Renaissance maps that the 406 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: sea monsters are more frequent is certainly the Indian Ocean, 407 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: and I think that has to do with the fact 408 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: that that was the ocean furthest from Europe that had 409 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: an aim, I think we can say, and so there 410 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: was a tendency bec as we were discussing earlier, there's 411 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: a tendency to place things that are strange and monstrous 412 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: or fantastic at the edges of the world. And uh, 413 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: the Indian Ocean was the edge of the world. Uh, 414 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: not not in the sense of falling off the edge, 415 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: but furthest known. I think that's an important distinction to make. 416 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: Um area of the world and thus was often populated 417 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: with sea monsters. Do you get a sense of to 418 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: what degree there was real fear about these monsters, Like 419 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: if you were an ancient or medieval and Renaissance mariner, 420 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: on average, how afraid are you of sea monsters? It's 421 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: a difficult question. There's a there's a wonderful passage from 422 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: a Roman poet, uh, and it it revolves around a 423 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: ship journey out in the Atlantic, and there's a tremendous storm, 424 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: and the mariners are very afraid and they're they're afraid 425 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: of sinking, but then they're also afraid of the monsters. 426 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: Are explicitly afraid of the monsters. In other cases, I 427 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: guess we have to confront the fact that the voices 428 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: of uh, the average sailor from the Middle Ages is 429 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 1: not typically a voice that has come down to us, 430 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: that's been preserved in a documentary record, So we it's 431 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: it's often not as easy as one might like to 432 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: to to understand their their feelings about sea monsters. Uh. Well, 433 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I was just thinking about the accounts you 434 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: document in your book, where it seems like that there 435 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: may be an evolution over time in um how much 436 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: helplessness was manifested in the depiction of sea monsters or 437 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: writing about them, Like, is it correct that earlier on 438 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: most depictions of sea monsters were more kind of invulnerable, 439 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: you were completely at their mercy, and over time there 440 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: there became more of a representation of ways of fighting back. 441 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: There there certainly is some movement in that direction. And 442 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: there are two wonderful examples of of ways to to 443 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: fight back against sea monsters, and one of them is 444 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: on the Catalan Atlas, often called so called because it's 445 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: in the Catalan language, the language of Catalunia um. And 446 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: in the Indian Ocean, there's a great image of of 447 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: two men who are diving in in underwater and they 448 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: seem to be collecting these multicolored rocks, and on either 449 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: side of them, uh, there is a sea monster that 450 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: seemed to be swimming away, and as a text that 451 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: explains that these are pearl divers, and the pearl divers 452 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: have a magic spell they say before they get in 453 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: the water that scares away the sea monsters uh, and 454 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: that if it were not for this spell, the sea 455 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: monsters would certainly devour them um. And so that's one 456 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: great case where where humans do seem to have some 457 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: defense against sea monsters. And then the other one is 458 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: again returning to Olaus Magnus car a marina of nine, 459 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: there's an image of a ship with a sea monster 460 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: behind it, a huge sea monster, and there's a man 461 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: standing on the back of a ship and at first 462 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: glance it looks like he's he's pointing a gun at 463 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: the sea monster, but um, the shape isn't quite right 464 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: for a gun. And when one reads the text associated 465 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: with the image, it turns out that this is a trumpet, 466 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: and the text explains that when when a ship is 467 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: in danger of being attacked by a sea monster, as 468 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: if one blows trump trumpet and yells and makes a 469 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 1: lot of noise as possible to scare the sea monster away, 470 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: the same advice they give you for a bear or 471 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: a cougar. Right, you are absolutely right. And one wonders 472 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: about the circumstances under which this was tried. Another one 473 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: that caught my attention in the book were the it 474 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: was the focal or about the nest of the Abyss 475 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: and the entrance to Hell. I think this is related 476 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: to the St. Brendan legend. Yes, this is and Bianco's 477 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: map Amudia fourteen thirty six. Um, yeah, it's that. That's 478 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: another one where it's it's very difficult to to try 479 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: and get at the source of this idea that there's 480 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: um that there's an entrance to the Abyss at the 481 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: south pole, which is what he's basically saying. Um, and 482 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: there was there was a myth that at the North 483 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: Pole there was a great vortex. Well, first of all, 484 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: there was a huge mountain of magnetic stone, which was 485 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 1: the explanation for why a compass points north. But then 486 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: there was this huge vortex into which the waters of 487 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: the Earth's oceans were continually being sucked. And I wish 488 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: I knew where this idea of the abyss at the 489 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: South Pole came from, whether it had any relation to 490 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: this myth about this vortex at the North Pole. Um. 491 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: I it's it's difficult to be sure, and there's there's 492 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: a lot of difficulty being sure with medieval and Renaissance maps, 493 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: we don't have a journal that the cartographer left explaining 494 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: why he or she put the things on the map 495 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: that he or she did and what the sources were. Um. 496 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's possible to find the sources, but other 497 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: times it's not. Um. Is it possible, you think to 498 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: talk about the relationship between maps and sea monsters in 499 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: the history of science. Do you see developing scientific ideas 500 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: playing a role or being manifested in the way sea 501 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: monsters show up on maps over time? Yes? Uh, And 502 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,239 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a rich subject. Uh, So, as I 503 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: was saying, on early maps, let's say, before the middle 504 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: of the sixteenth century, I think there often was an 505 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: attempt to convey scientific information with sea monsters, that is, 506 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: to show what was actually in living in the oceans. 507 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: That they'd certainly also had a decorative function, there's no 508 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: denying that. But but because many of the monsters we 509 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: see portrayed come from things like encyclopedias, illustrated encyclopedias. Uh, this, 510 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: this was what people at the time would have regarded 511 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: as scientific information. Around the middle of the sixteenth century, 512 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: one starts to see on maps sea monsters that were 513 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: merely invented by the cartographer. As far as I or 514 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: anyone else has been able to tell, that is, there 515 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: is no earlier work that shows this same creature. And 516 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: it's they seem to be assembled from parts of different creatures. 517 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: You know, it has the head of a bird, and 518 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: the trunk of an elephant, and the tail of a fish, 519 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: things like that. And when that starts to occur, Uh, 520 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: the scientific function of sea monsters, the the information conveying function, 521 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: the natural history information conveying function of sea monsters starts 522 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: to go away, and sea monsters become more purely decorative, 523 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: and that that change, first of all, did not happen 524 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: all at once, and second of all, did not happen 525 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: for all cartographers. Uh. Some continued after the middle of 526 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century to to show creatures that came from 527 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: what would have been called something like scientific sources at 528 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: the time. But then uh, sea monsters on maps began 529 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: to decline. So they made a transition towards being more 530 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: purely decorative, and then they began to decline as maps 531 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: began to be thought of in a different way. Maps 532 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: began to be thought of as more purely scientific instruments 533 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: in a more modern sense of the word um, that is, 534 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: something more purely utilitarian rather than an artistic creation. And 535 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: so uh yes, in in the course of particularly the 536 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, UH, sea monsters on maps declined, um, which 537 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: for someone writing a book about sea monsters on maps, 538 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: it is a little bit sad, um, but but it 539 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: is part of the historical process, and it relates exactly 540 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: to to what you're you're talking about, this relation between 541 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: sea monsters and science, that that sea monsters, I mean, 542 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: people began to understand that these fantastical creatures were not real. 543 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think it wasn't the 544 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: case that the fantastic creatures began to be replaced with 545 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: real fish. Um, that happens a little bit, but not 546 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: as a general pattern. And so somehow maps began to 547 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: be conceived purely as device, as instruments, scientific instruments for 548 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: for helping you get from point A to point B, 549 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: and less as artistic creations. It's it interests me what 550 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: you're saying though about Um there being a sort of 551 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: counterintuitive or inverted process that as scientific knowledge advances and 552 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 1: we get a clearer picture of what animals are real 553 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: and what animals are not real, there's actually, for a 554 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: short period an increase in the mythologizing, right, So you're 555 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: saying that that's when like these new fanciful creatures are 556 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: are totally conjured up out of nowhere by the map makers. Yes, yeah, 557 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: that's interesting. It is interesting. It's a it's a very 558 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: interesting moment in the history of cartography and the history 559 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: of see creatures on maps. It almost reminds me of 560 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: a thing we've talked about on other episodes of the 561 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: show before, about increase in interest in like witchcraft and demonology. 562 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: Actually is sort of going up as uh as the 563 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: Enlightenment was coming around before it before it faded away. 564 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: That's a fascinating analogy. Alright, time for a quick break, 565 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with more of the interview. 566 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: Thank and we return well before we before we surrender 567 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: sea monsters to the onslaught of realism, Maybe we could 568 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: go back and talk about a couple more of them. Uh, 569 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: do you do you want to talk a little bit 570 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: about the idea of whales being mistaken for islands. So 571 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: there was a mythical story uh that goes back to 572 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,959 Speaker 1: a work called the Physiologists, um, very early medieval work 573 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: that that contains this story. And the Physiologist is a 574 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 1: collection of stories about animals and stones and plants, each 575 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: of them I've given a more role uh interpretation. And 576 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: so in the Physiologist there's a story about sailors who 577 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: find what they think is an island, and they land 578 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: on the island and laid a fire on it. But 579 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: it turns out that the island but they thought was 580 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: an island, is actually a whale. Uh. And when the 581 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: whale feels this fire on its back, uh, it plunges 582 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: into the ocean, taking the sailors with it. And the 583 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: moralization is that if one places one's trust in the devil, 584 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: one will be carried to hell, so that in this 585 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: case the whale is associated with the devil, which is 586 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: another type of monstrosity, if you will. So this uh, 587 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: this story had a very long life. It was um 588 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: adapted from the physiologist and incorporated into medieval best areas, 589 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: medieval animal books, and and had a wide, very wide diffusion. 590 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: And this uh, this story is illustrated uh not only 591 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: on best stories and in various other sources, but also 592 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: on maps several times, UH and in different ways. And 593 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: what One of the one particularly appealing illustration of it 594 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: on a map is on a map by pd Dice, 595 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: who was a Turkish admiral, And on his map he 596 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: has a long text in which he says that he 597 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: composed his map based on information from twenty other maps, 598 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: which is one of the few times we get some 599 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: insight into how maps were created in the early sixteenth century, 600 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: and he illustrates this story. So there's a ship with 601 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: a whale and the two sailors on the back of 602 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: the whale who've lit a fire, and the text nearby 603 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: tells this story and he says, if I recall correctly, 604 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: he says, he copied it from a Portuguese map. So this, uh, 605 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: this story is not one we hear every day. It 606 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: sounds familiar when we do hear it, I think, but 607 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: it is something important in looking at images of whales 608 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: on early maps. Uh, speaking of sea monsters so large 609 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: they're mistaken for land masses. Could you also talk a 610 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: bit about the kracking. Yeah, the cracking doesn't figure in 611 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: my book. Uh so it's it's I really confined my 612 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: attention to maps, and as far as I have been 613 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: able to find, there's no early map that depicts the 614 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: cracking as such. Um. Shame, it's a shame. Um. And 615 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: it may be that may be in part because uh, 616 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: we we don't have any uh medieval Scandinavian maps. Well, 617 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: it's not quite true. We don't have we don't have 618 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: any let me put it this, so we don't have 619 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: any um, medieval navigational charts from Scandinavia. And so one 620 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: might be tempted to imagine that the cracking might have 621 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: been depicted on such a chart, but such charts do 622 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: not survive. And now let's see, I do remember it 623 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: coming up somehow in your book. I guess it was 624 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: a reference to the King's Mirror. Was that used as 625 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: a source for some other legend on a Scandinavian map? Yes, 626 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: the cracking does appear in the in the text The 627 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: King's Mirror, and I'm not recalling the details. So I 628 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: I think that the name kraken Um don't appear on 629 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: a map, but it's the creature. The creature depicted is 630 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: not what we think of as the kracking, so it's 631 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: it's not the same when we think about the crack, 632 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: and I think we have a quite specific, terrifying image 633 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: and that's not what's on this map. Well, one last question, Chet, 634 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: if you don't mind, uh, do you want to talk 635 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: any about what you've been working on more recently? I 636 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: know I believe this book we've been talking about was 637 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: from you've recently been working on, uh something about imaging 638 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: for damaged maps. Yes, uh so. I work with a 639 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: group at the University of Rochester and the Rochester Institute 640 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: of Technology called the Lazarus Project and Archive, so two 641 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: different groups, and we use a technology called multi spectral 642 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:29,399 Speaker 1: imaging to recover information from damaged manuscripts, books and maps, 643 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: and one of our projects was to use this technology 644 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: on a important world map made in about one by 645 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: a German cartographer who was working in Florence named Enricus Martellas. 646 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: And it is a large world map UM at Yale University. 647 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: And it appeared in the late nineteen fifties and was 648 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: sold and then anonymously donated to Yale, and it's important 649 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: was recognized, but at the same time it was sort 650 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: of this great unstudiable object because most of the text 651 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: on it had faded to eligibility UM and so I 652 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: I was interested in studying the map, and UH did 653 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: some research as to what technologies might be able to 654 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: help with that and got in touch with Gregory Hayworth, 655 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: who is now at the University of Rochester and we 656 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: UH we worked together to image this map in two 657 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, and we were able to recover a great 658 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: a large proportion, not all, but almost all of the 659 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: text on the map and many of the images as well. 660 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: And thus UH turn what had been this unstudiable object 661 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: into something that's studiable in all its aspects. And late 662 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: last year I published a book based on this research. 663 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: And when we we generated these images of the map, 664 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: UH I came to the map with my questions. But 665 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: one of the exciting things about the project is that 666 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: all the images will be made freely available online, and 667 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: anyone can now approach this map with his or her 668 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: own questions and write his or her own book or 669 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: article about other aspects of the map that I never 670 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: thought about. So with with the right object and in 671 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: this this case, this map was a great candidate for 672 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: multi spectral imaging. It's like magic text suddenly appears where 673 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: it was totally invisible to the naked eye before. Wow. 674 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,760 Speaker 1: I love that. That's uh. I mean, of course, there's 675 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: always the appeal of the idea of a lost document 676 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: even more maddening. I'm sure it's the idea of an 677 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: old document or text that you have but you can't read. Yes, yes, 678 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: it was. It was very tantalizing. But at least in 679 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: this case and in in various others. Uh, there's now 680 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: a solution. There's now the possibility to make these documents 681 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: legible and accessible again, which is very exciting. Yeah, that's fantastic. 682 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think we have to call it there, 683 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: but Chet, thank you so much for joining us today. 684 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: It's been great talking to you. Thank you, Joe, I've 685 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this very much. All Right, that wraps up 686 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: today's episode, but big thanks again to Chet van Deuser 687 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,959 Speaker 1: for joining us, and if you want to see more 688 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: of his talks more of his work, we'll post some 689 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: links on the landing page to this episode. It's Stuff 690 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com uh. In the meantime, 691 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us, of course, 692 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com is the mother ship. 693 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: You can check out all of our podcasts. There. Let's 694 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: go see the other episodes from October. We've been talking 695 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: about monsters all month. If you are not subscribed to 696 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,879 Speaker 1: Invention yet, that's our other podcast. It's about guess what inventions, 697 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: but we bring the Stuff to Blow your Mind spin 698 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: to it. We try to explore the things we made 699 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: and how they made up, the influences of inventions on 700 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: human culture and history, and the circumstances that lead to 701 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,280 Speaker 1: UH to inventions such as escaped coffins, escape hatch coffins 702 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: we've been talking about all month, as well as coffins 703 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: to prevent grave robbery and the theft of bodies by 704 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: the resurrection men who worked for the anatomists of the 705 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,479 Speaker 1: seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. That's been a lot of fun. 706 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: So if you haven't checked out Invention yet, now is 707 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: a great time jump over there and see what it's 708 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: all about. Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio 709 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 710 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback about this episode or 711 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: any other suggest a topic for the future, just to 712 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 713 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 714 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: Mind is a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff Works. 715 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio is at the 716 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 717 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. I think the Stott fo