Speaker 1: All right, we're back for another edition of the Frida
Speaker 1: Egg Podcast. We've got a second one in the last
Speaker 1: seven days. Here. This time, we're going to change speeds
Speaker 1: and go into one of my favorite realms of golf,
Speaker 1: golf course architecture, and with us as a guest. We've
Speaker 1: got Rob Collins who's a golf course architect based out
Speaker 1: of Chattanooga, Tennessee, and he and his partner Ted King
Speaker 1: are responsible for the nine hole masterpiece Sweeten's Cove. Sweeten's
Speaker 1: Cove has a cult like following amongst architecture fans, and
Speaker 1: we're really happy to have Rob on.
Speaker 2: Great to be here. I'm thrilled to be on the podcast.
Speaker 2: I appreciate yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I mean it's uh. I got the chance
Speaker 1: to play Sweeten's Cove in May of this year down
Speaker 1: in Knoxville for a wedding, and yuh saw that chat
Speaker 1: Nuga was only about two hours away and knew I
Speaker 1: could squeeze in nine holes if I got on the
Speaker 1: road about five forty five and got it done, and
Speaker 1: it was. It was a experience that kind of changes
Speaker 1: the way you think about golf. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: you look at a lot of different people and their
Speaker 1: opinion on it, and that, you know, the resounding opinion
Speaker 1: seems to be that it changes the way that you
Speaker 1: think about golf. And you know, one of the worst
Speaker 1: things about Sweeten's Cove is generally leaving. So congrats doing
Speaker 1: a great job there. It's been fun to kind of
Speaker 1: watch all these new people's opinion and I'm sure you
Speaker 1: get the same satisfaction.
Speaker 2: Oh, we really do. It's been a thrill. I was
Speaker 2: thinking today. We started checking back and forth a little
Speaker 2: bit about the podcast. You know, when we were building
Speaker 2: sweet co I could tell, you know, early on that
Speaker 2: it was really good. It was really really good, and
Speaker 2: I was really really excited about it. But I can't
Speaker 2: I don't. And I knew that it would speak on
Speaker 2: a kind of a deep level to a lot of people,
Speaker 2: to a certain steps of people. I thought there was
Speaker 2: as the market out there for it, and that it would,
Speaker 2: like I said, it would really feel strongly to a
Speaker 2: certain stuff that of the golf population. So that wasn't
Speaker 2: really a surprise that the amount of sublicity that we've
Speaker 2: gotten out of it and the degree to which we've
Speaker 2: you know, received a lot of you know, kind remarks
Speaker 2: and great publicity and everything else is exceeded my expectations.
Speaker 2: So we're really really pleased with everything, and it's it's
Speaker 2: the thrill to see it continue to grow and continue
Speaker 2: to get more attention, and it means the world for
Speaker 2: me to see people react to it that way. When
Speaker 2: we were out there doing it, those long, difficult days
Speaker 2: where nobody's watching and you're working your butt off, you know,
Speaker 2: you was trying to think, you know, one day somebody's
Speaker 2: gonna get this, they're gonna appreciate it, and it kind
Speaker 2: of gets through the day on that thought that now
Speaker 2: that people are reacting to it in the way that
Speaker 2: they are, thinks all those long tough days worth it.
Speaker 2: So it really is a thrill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think seeing you know, Rob's recently posted a
Speaker 1: lot of before and after photos and Jason Way of
Speaker 1: geekon golf dot Com did a great piece with Rob
Speaker 1: on kind of how he got into architecture and you know,
Speaker 1: a very detailed look at the Swedens ghost story that
Speaker 1: I highly recommend anybody that hasn't checked it out. But
Speaker 1: you know, as getting into you know, golf course architecture,
Speaker 1: and I know this was kind of your first solo
Speaker 1: gig at it. I'd love to hear a little bit
Speaker 1: about how you got into it. I think every architecture
Speaker 1: fan that's an average Joe like myself has had the
Speaker 1: dream at one point or still has the dream of
Speaker 1: building a golf course. And I'd just love to hear
Speaker 1: about kind of the industry, how you get started, and
Speaker 1: how you got started and you know, have built your
Speaker 1: career to this point that I think that'd be great
Speaker 1: for the readers to sort and the listeners to hear.
Speaker 2: Well. I think I was like a lot of kids
Speaker 2: real early on, so maybe kind of vaguely remember it's
Speaker 2: fifth or sixth grade, maybe seventh grade, definitely, I remember
Speaker 2: seventh grade drawing golf holes in the side of the oat books.
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's pretty common for people
Speaker 2: who get into golf at an early age. So I
Speaker 2: was kind of like everyone else in that sense. And
Speaker 2: I went went to college as Swanni and then got
Speaker 2: out and I graduated ninety seven, and really what I
Speaker 2: really wanted to do was go be a golf course architect,
Speaker 2: but I really had absolutely no idea of how to
Speaker 2: go about doing that. I mean, I knew that there
Speaker 2: were golf course architects out there obviously, and the thing
Speaker 2: had somehow gotten to that position in life. But I
Speaker 2: didn't understand how you could go from being a graduate
Speaker 2: of a liberal arts college and it actually turned that
Speaker 2: into a into a profession so bizarre and strange golf
Speaker 2: course architecture. And so basically I've kind of chickened out
Speaker 2: for four or five years, kind of put it on
Speaker 2: holds that I dreamed on halls, and I went and
Speaker 2: worked in Atlanta, and I enjoyed my time down there.
Speaker 2: Was kind of a good post college time, and I
Speaker 2: had a few different jobs, one of which was basically
Speaker 2: the same as the job that the guy in office
Speaker 2: space had. I mean, it was absolutely miserable, and I
Speaker 2: think it was important to go through that because I
Speaker 2: realized that I really really did not want to spend
Speaker 2: the rest of my life doing something I didn't love
Speaker 2: to care about. And yeah, during that time, I researched
Speaker 2: ways to get into the business and came around to
Speaker 2: the opinions that the best way for me to do
Speaker 2: it would be to go back to graduate school and
Speaker 2: get a landscape architecture degree. I thought that would basically
Speaker 2: provide the foundation educational foundation that I would need to
Speaker 2: you have some of the most basic skills that I
Speaker 2: could use to transition that into an actual job. And
Speaker 2: so I went back to Misisippi State, which that was
Speaker 2: one of the programs that actually welcomed me with the
Speaker 2: open arms and my interest in golf courts architecture. I
Speaker 2: made it extremely clear to the department head and it's
Speaker 2: my major professor, that I did not give a damn
Speaker 2: about landscape architecture. I was there for one reason and
Speaker 2: one reason only, and that was to be a golf
Speaker 2: course architect and they they were fully supportive of that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was not dismissive or rude anyway towards
Speaker 2: landscape architects or profession of landscape architecture, but they understood that,
Speaker 2: you know, I was going to use those skills, which
Speaker 2: are very valuable skills, and I'm really really glad I
Speaker 2: went back to school to do it, but that I
Speaker 2: was going to use those skills for some extremely specific
Speaker 2: stuffs that of do you want to call golf course
Speaker 2: architecture a stuff stead of my step architecture, I mean
Speaker 2: it's kind of a I think more a mariage of
Speaker 2: engineering and plant spy architecture and in art, but anyway,
Speaker 2: that was that's kind of what I did. And I
Speaker 2: was fortunate to finish up and graduate in two thousand
Speaker 2: and five when they were still building golf courts and
Speaker 2: domestically at a very fast race, so it was actually
Speaker 2: possible for someone like me to get out of school
Speaker 2: and get a get a position. And I worked while
Speaker 2: I was in school. I had an internship with the
Speaker 2: with the really super guy Raleigh, a guy named Rick Robins,
Speaker 2: a very accomplished architect who's the former president of the
Speaker 2: a s GTA, worked for Nicholas for a long time
Speaker 2: in Asia, just had a ton of experience with wealth
Speaker 2: and dollarge about the profession. He's the first guy who
Speaker 2: ever believed in me and always really have a fine
Speaker 2: place in my heart for Rick and his wife Ginger,
Speaker 2: and Brian Lucier who was in the office there, and
Speaker 2: another guy, Jeff Westmoreland. I learned a lot from all them,
Speaker 2: and and then I transitioned that into a designed coordinator
Speaker 2: role with Gary Player Design, where I was basically on
Speaker 2: site day to day on a on a couple of
Speaker 2: different projects with them, And that was a wonderful experience
Speaker 2: because I've that that helped me understand the link between
Speaker 2: a finished golf course and the just the conceptual planning
Speaker 2: phase which I had gotten in school, and and it's
Speaker 2: it's kind of the first stage of it. But the
Speaker 2: really important stuff is what happened in the field. That's
Speaker 2: where I've fell in love with construction. And and then
Speaker 2: UH after the second that the second in last project
Speaker 2: I did it was with Player in the field was
Speaker 2: a really neat golf course up in Cranebrook, British Columbia
Speaker 2: called Wildstone and worked with their UH senior designer on
Speaker 2: that project, guy named Jeff Lawrence. Learned a ton from
Speaker 2: Jeff and and Frank and against the other the other
Speaker 2: designer there, but Jeff and I for Players the main
Speaker 2: people of all that project. And that was a really
Speaker 2: a really great experience. But it was one that UH
Speaker 2: was touched short by the recession, and it did eventually
Speaker 2: get finished and is now opened. That I had to
Speaker 2: move home and and came back to Chattanooga, and I
Speaker 2: was determined not to give up on my dream, and
Speaker 2: I formed King College Golf Course Design with my good
Speaker 2: friend and now business partners had King And so I
Speaker 2: think that CAT I think of it's a great team
Speaker 2: where our skills, you know, our our skill sets compliment
Speaker 2: one another really well. And I wanted to do design
Speaker 2: build like the work I always wanted to be on
Speaker 2: on my own. That was always my vision. I actually
Speaker 2: remember when I interviewed with Player, I said something really
Speaker 2: stupid at hindsight, got there all. The president of Gary
Speaker 2: Player Design asked me what my long term plans were,
Speaker 2: and I told him that I wanted to be out
Speaker 2: on my own eventually, which is really funny thinking back
Speaker 2: on it. I mean, I can't believe I said that.
Speaker 2: I mean, usually you would keep a little stuff like that,
Speaker 2: like she would go in to that interview and be like,
Speaker 2: I want to work for Gary Player for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life, which I mean, I was extremely honored
Speaker 2: to even be sitting in that room at their office
Speaker 2: and call me Scarves. That was a really really big
Speaker 2: deal for me, right out of ground to it, and
Speaker 2: I was, you know, God's a great guy. I mean,
Speaker 2: I love all those guys. But it's funny thinking back
Speaker 2: on that that I was so determined to make the
Speaker 2: name for myself that I have blurted that out and
Speaker 2: interviewed and that was in a way the recession was
Speaker 2: the thing that was not in a way, it did
Speaker 2: force my hand. It forced me to go on, which
Speaker 2: is where I always wanted to be. So had those
Speaker 2: of us through a couple of years of tell of
Speaker 2: not being involved in of course, architecture at all while
Speaker 2: the economy sort of stabilized and and then we got
Speaker 2: Lusky and had this little nine hole thing follow our lapse,
Speaker 2: you know, the rest of history.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, it's interesting how the universe kind of
Speaker 1: connects itself. But you know, at the same time, I
Speaker 1: think as a you know, an employer's got like when
Speaker 1: people want to you know, do great things and want
Speaker 1: to build a brand of their own to a certain extent,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're hiring a you know, entry level
Speaker 1: early employee, you want to hear motivation rather than somebody
Speaker 1: that just you know, wants to be around the office
Speaker 1: and you know, slowly working their way up. You know.
Speaker 1: So I think it could go either way, and lustily
Speaker 1: for you, it went the right way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I am lucky that. I mean, maybe Scott
Speaker 2: I thought that was funny and it kind of laughed off,
Speaker 2: or maybe he saw to that as being someone who
Speaker 2: was motivated to do a great job and could benefit
Speaker 2: their their organization. I don't never actually talked to Scott
Speaker 2: about that. Never even really I've ever mentioned that to anybody.
Speaker 2: I've talked to my wife about it. I mean, tell
Speaker 2: was that thing. But you know that's that's just where
Speaker 2: my mind was. I always wanted to be all biled.
Speaker 2: I really really really want it to have a my
Speaker 2: own branch file boy. That was always really important. And
Speaker 2: we were so lucky to get just a questionriality job.
Speaker 2: I mean it was although I will say Gary speaking
Speaker 2: a Gary player, he has a great quote which is
Speaker 2: the harder I worked, the luckier I guess. So we
Speaker 2: all we did make our own luck, and we put
Speaker 2: ourselves in a position to get lucky. But in many
Speaker 2: many ways we were lucky too. Not only did we
Speaker 2: get the project, but one thing we were extremely lucky
Speaker 2: with was our our client, the concrete manufacturer out of
Speaker 2: South Pittsburgh and Chattdigger area, and they had this old
Speaker 2: golf course that they wanted too to redo and and
Speaker 2: Reece Thomas By my client was a great guy and
Speaker 2: uh his he just totally trusted us and to be
Speaker 2: to have someone right out of the vat right out
Speaker 2: of the gate. Trust you in the way that Reese
Speaker 2: trusted me and had is rare. I mean, we could
Speaker 2: have had somebody that our first client, who shot down
Speaker 2: all of our wild ideas. Because if Sweeten's COVID is,
Speaker 2: it's not normal. I mean, it's far from it.
Speaker 1: And it's very.
Speaker 2: It's extremely bold. And you know, we were walking, we
Speaker 2: were walking a very fine line, and there was this
Speaker 2: hairy line to walk during construction to go through all that,
Speaker 2: and but you know, Reese was the was the rock
Speaker 2: and he he really believed that what we were doing
Speaker 2: was special, that it was right, and that's that's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the total saught stuff. I mean, you
Speaker 2: hear stories about other people who first clients or don't
Speaker 2: trust something necessarily and you know, put too many restrictions
Speaker 2: on the reefs. Let us do our thing, and and
Speaker 2: that that was huge and that's why Sweetens Go. That's
Speaker 2: a big part of the reason why sweets Go turned
Speaker 2: out so well. So, you know, to the point about
Speaker 2: Sweden's being bold, it is it is certainly that. And
Speaker 2: I had some I had some sleepless nights during construction wondering,
Speaker 2: you know, do we push it too far and and
Speaker 2: that's was something that I've just kind of always wanted
Speaker 2: to guard against. I mean, I knew, I knew I
Speaker 2: wanted to do something bold. I wanted to do I
Speaker 2: wanted to do something unique, and I'm and I knew
Speaker 2: that there was a line there, but where exactly that
Speaker 2: line is is open to interpretation. And if I had
Speaker 2: not been on site every single day, the balloon that
Speaker 2: was we Cove, of the helium balloon could have become
Speaker 2: untethered from the from the ground, from it's boring and
Speaker 2: thrifts it off into space and kind of evolved into
Speaker 2: something that was just but not very good. It was
Speaker 2: not grounded. And that's I think that's what I take
Speaker 2: the most pride in really about weeks Cove is that
Speaker 2: it is a really really unique, really really really bold vision,
Speaker 2: but it does not come unflued from the foundational principles
Speaker 2: of what a great golf course does and what it
Speaker 2: should be. And that that was really hard to do
Speaker 2: because the physical manifestation of those kinds of those architectural
Speaker 2: ideas that Sweeten Cove are presented in a very unique
Speaker 2: and different line than most other golf courses. So it's
Speaker 2: hard to create something that looks can feel so different,
Speaker 2: that has an extremely bold flavor while keeping it grounded
Speaker 2: in a stead of you know, five or six or
Speaker 2: seven key principles and that that was the grind every
Speaker 2: single day off site, you know, just making sure that
Speaker 2: all this really whole crazy stuff we were doing wasn't
Speaker 2: flying into the ether and turning into a giant island
Speaker 2: craft that was it wasn't instead of they grounded that.
Speaker 2: That was hard and I'm really really proud of that
Speaker 2: because we kept it grounded. I mean, Sweeden Cove is
Speaker 2: grounded in these tried and true principles, but it's expressed
Speaker 2: in a way that I think is really unique. And
Speaker 2: that was my goal going in. That was hard to achieve,
Speaker 2: but I think we did this. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that where you know, architecture can go wrong.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things I loved about
Speaker 1: Sweens coach so much was the you know, the general
Speaker 1: idea of with off the tee that kept everybody in
Speaker 1: the in the ball game, but then taking you know,
Speaker 1: our a established you know green complex because in principles
Speaker 1: like you know, the first green for everybody that you
Speaker 1: know hasn't played there is a really cool it's got
Speaker 1: a a it's a short part five, so it's reachable
Speaker 1: in two. But you have a really interesting green complex
Speaker 1: that's on the left side, got a redan kind of
Speaker 1: kicker in and then you and then on the right
Speaker 1: side of the green is a punch bowl. So you
Speaker 1: get these interesting blends that are very is, very boldly contoured.
Speaker 1: But the architecture goes back to the Golden Age principles.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, and i'd be interest to
Speaker 1: hear your take, is, you know, my general you know
Speaker 1: philosophy of where golf course architecture went wrong during this
Speaker 1: dark age that we were in for you know, the
Speaker 1: forties through the you know, early sixties, is that people
Speaker 1: trying to reinvent the wheel as opposed to you know,
Speaker 1: taking making small tweaks to the tried and true principles.
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear how you draw on, you know,
Speaker 1: those Golden Age architects and the and the great architects
Speaker 1: of even today for inspiration when you go into your
Speaker 1: and do your design.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's that's an interesting, uh area to
Speaker 2: dig into it. I mean, I think I think the
Speaker 2: first so I think the first question was where did
Speaker 2: it go wrong? And how do you avoid that? I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, the Golden Age architect you know kind of
Speaker 2: all were focused on strategic principles. They were you know,
Speaker 2: they were interested in creating a canvas that had variety
Speaker 2: strategy work, you know, interesting bold features that were unique
Speaker 2: in their own rights, that that were at the same
Speaker 2: time kind of grounded and some of the kind of
Speaker 2: foundational principles that that you learned from the best courses
Speaker 2: of Great Britain, Ireland and the golf stage. Architects by
Speaker 2: a large weren't afraid to try new things, to do bold,
Speaker 2: interesting work, to do working things. And I think that
Speaker 2: one of the things has golf shifted kind of post
Speaker 2: war was that golf became very much in its creation
Speaker 2: and its presentation architect quick doing interesting, bold thing they
Speaker 2: they I think part of that is because it was
Speaker 2: you know, closely tied to housing and other real estate
Speaker 2: based interest that did not have golf as the central interest.
Speaker 2: But golf was instead an amenity. And if you view
Speaker 2: golf as an aminity as a side show, it's easier
Speaker 2: to create. So basically just uh, for the lack of
Speaker 2: a better word, template holes that are you know, just
Speaker 2: just completely bland, not like a templet all intensive brainer,
Speaker 2: but just if you're just repeating the same ideas over
Speaker 2: and over, like I'm gonna put a put a bunker
Speaker 2: on the inside of this dog leg here, and then man,
Speaker 2: it's a green, there's gonna be a bunker on the left,
Speaker 2: a bunker on the right. Okay, we'll move on to
Speaker 2: the next one. And so I think that that just
Speaker 2: became the just a very common way to do it.
Speaker 2: And there was an obsession as well with fairness, which
Speaker 2: is just so stupid. It's not part of golf. People
Speaker 2: became obsessed with fairness and having every single thing visible
Speaker 2: out in front of them. You know, they just golf
Speaker 2: just drifted away from from the lessons of the old
Speaker 2: course and and the you know, the things that the
Speaker 2: the great architects with the golf age where we're into
Speaker 2: and and so it's it's just really, uh, there was
Speaker 2: just a lot of really really bad golf course still
Speaker 2: and and I think it was hard to break out
Speaker 2: of that. Then you know, along came he Die, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, there's this wild guy who's doing
Speaker 2: all this amazing, fold interesting work that's based on strategic
Speaker 2: principles and he certainly had a lot of player and
Speaker 2: was doing all kinds of things that were you know,
Speaker 2: in the spirit of the golden age of you know,
Speaker 2: great brend in Ireland. And so you know that you
Speaker 2: can look into the farther into the modern era and
Speaker 2: you know who worked for he died a still poor
Speaker 2: is Tom Doak. And you know the leaders of the
Speaker 2: last twenty five years or directed that with his his
Speaker 2: vision and his greatness. And you know that there's been
Speaker 2: some incredible golf courses built in the last you know,
Speaker 2: in the early nineties, and and I think that people
Speaker 2: have been getting obviously and I think people don't realize,
Speaker 2: but that have been getting back to those kind of
Speaker 2: four principles and ideas and thoughts and there's more artistry
Speaker 2: or or or interesting things going on in architecture. And
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a relief.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So do you see kind of the interest
Speaker 1: in golf course of course architecture from the general golfer
Speaker 1: increasing since you've got it back into the field or
Speaker 1: has it kind of remained the same or you know what,
Speaker 1: what have you seen from kind of golf course architecture
Speaker 1: becoming more mainstream.
Speaker 2: I think it's definitely becoming more mainstream. But you know,
Speaker 2: the patrons saying of golf course architecture is this patizer
Speaker 2: and you know, he's built these defically successful developments and
Speaker 2: that's what he's done. Stand Indus in particular has had
Speaker 2: a huge ripple effect throughout the golf world. And I
Speaker 2: think that, you know, he alone has helped create an
Speaker 2: awareness of what what good architecture is. Even if people
Speaker 2: don't you know, have a interested there maybe some sort
Speaker 2: of passing interests and at least they they may not
Speaker 2: understand why they like what they like or they they
Speaker 2: they may not be able to carry a discussion on
Speaker 2: about it, but they can they're at least aware of it.
Speaker 2: And that's a change. And so I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that there is there is a higher degree
Speaker 2: of interest in architecture, and especially you know, due to
Speaker 2: the wonders of the Internet. Just spoken with with this
Speaker 2: about Adam Lawrence, the the great British golf writer on
Speaker 2: a number of occasions. You know, Adam said to me one time,
Speaker 2: He's like, Rob, I really think that somebody one you know,
Speaker 2: one day is going to ride a write a book
Speaker 2: on golf batlest and in the impact that the UH
Speaker 2: brands site. You know it's had on the world, and
Speaker 2: you know he has been cow and Dar had a
Speaker 2: just a massive impact on UH the golf golf course
Speaker 2: architecture and the the spread of interest in is the
Speaker 2: subject of architecture. I mean, Golf of Batists has started
Speaker 2: in the sometime in the nineties and it's just continued
Speaker 2: to grow. And it is, how really I think, a
Speaker 2: pretty major force in in the golf world. It's just
Speaker 2: large and and that's because you know, the thoughtful discussions,
Speaker 2: incredible force reviews, that in depth reviews that ran put up,
Speaker 2: and it's made a lot of people aware in pluting
Speaker 2: myself of what what's good, what's not good? Why is
Speaker 2: it good? It's a really it's an amazing resource of
Speaker 2: anyone can access this. So I think there's a few
Speaker 2: two things that have gone off the last twenty years.
Speaker 2: Did it really help shine the ladle architecture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I remember when I was in my
Speaker 1: early twenties, I would I would read, you know, for
Speaker 1: hours on golf course architecture just about you know, if
Speaker 1: I was going to go visit a different city, you know,
Speaker 1: where to play and why to play there. I think
Speaker 1: that's the the general you know is basically, you know,
Speaker 1: getting to a point where you're trusting people because of
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I trust this person's opinion. And
Speaker 1: I think we've seen that with Yelp and golf courses
Speaker 1: are just you know, kind of a little bit slower.
Speaker 1: It's tough because you know, in order to formulate an opinion,
Speaker 1: there needs to be some sort of you know, that's
Speaker 1: a good opinion of the architecture. There has to be
Speaker 1: some sort of understanding of architecture, which we're getting there.
Speaker 1: I think more and more U people read and understand
Speaker 1: it and you know, go to golf club batlets. The
Speaker 1: better you know recommendations people are going to get when
Speaker 1: they go on a golf trip to random city autely.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that's the Frida Egg. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, you have a relatively new class war, but
Speaker 2: it's growing, and you know, your focus on architecture is important.
Speaker 2: And I think that if you're exposing more people to
Speaker 2: you know, some of the basic ideas that once what
Speaker 2: architecture is all about, and you're showing people to the
Speaker 2: link between the game itself and the architecture and how
Speaker 2: you know. I think I'm putting works in your mouth,
Speaker 2: but I think you would agree that there's a a
Speaker 2: sense that if you understand architecture, you're actually going to
Speaker 2: enjoy the game more. It's going to be a richer experience,
Speaker 2: can be more fun. Yeah, I think, And I think
Speaker 2: that's you know, part of what's what you've done, and
Speaker 2: it's growing. I mean, it's that's right, It's right for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in general, I think you know golf
Speaker 1: course architecture and understanding of golf courses, you're going to
Speaker 1: enjoy the game more. You're going to play more golf
Speaker 1: at better golf courses. It doesn't mean that the golf
Speaker 1: courses are more expensive, but it's a matter of finding,
Speaker 1: you know, these kind of hidden gems that were designed
Speaker 1: by great architects that you know they might not be
Speaker 1: in perfect condition, like you're two hundred dollars around, you know,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five designed Tom Fazio course, but they are
Speaker 1: going to be playable, fun, present unique options. The biggest
Speaker 1: thing I see is, you know, the more you understand architecture,
Speaker 1: the more it helps your golf game. I've seen my
Speaker 1: game get better just from understanding, you know, holes. A
Speaker 1: good example would be I was playing the mid am
Speaker 1: and my last hole of my first round, I was
Speaker 1: I was kind of hanging on to a round and
Speaker 1: I was five over going into the you know, the
Speaker 1: ninth hole at Stonewall's Old Course, which is like a
Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty yard where dan hole over water.
Speaker 1: And I looked at it and this wind is just
Speaker 1: it's blowing, and I'm like, I don't have two twenty
Speaker 1: in the air. So you know, I hit, I hit
Speaker 1: my fore iron and I got it to just catch
Speaker 1: that front right kicker and it rolled down to seven
Speaker 1: feet from the hole because I knew the principles of
Speaker 1: the hole. And I think that's that's where you know,
Speaker 1: people can understand strategy and where to miss their shots,
Speaker 1: and their scores are only going to get better and better.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, if you're playing a golf course
Speaker 2: where strategy was a part of the design and construction process,
Speaker 2: understanding strategic principles and and everything, you know just gonna
Speaker 2: you're gonna fare better and you're gonna you're gonna do
Speaker 2: a better job. I mean I see that out as
Speaker 2: Sweeten Cove, there's a guy who comes out all the
Speaker 2: time and he's a he's a great guy. He is
Speaker 2: what I was call a kind of a lifelong you know,
Speaker 2: public golfer in Chattanooga which came to hasn't really ever
Speaker 2: played anything interesting for the most part. But it's not
Speaker 2: a knock on him. That's just reality. But he when
Speaker 2: he comes out to Sweden's Cove, it's his favorite golf course.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he talks to me and he I mean,
Speaker 2: he doesn't read golf book at once. He doesn't. He
Speaker 2: doesn't five books about architecture when he sits there and
Speaker 2: talks to me about how he has to think his
Speaker 2: way around the course and the places he needs to
Speaker 2: be into places he can't be, and how he likes
Speaker 2: to gocause he has more options, and how he can
Speaker 2: hit different shots. He is saying things that to me
Speaker 2: that you know, you would hear from somebody who's a
Speaker 2: contributor on Golf Club outlest He doesn't have any background
Speaker 2: in architecture, and he's just a guy who's observit and
Speaker 2: thoughtful and he gets it, understands it, and it's just
Speaker 2: self talked, purely self taught from being able to come
Speaker 2: out and play there and so and it's and he's
Speaker 2: gotten he's a lot better player now than he was
Speaker 2: before he started coming out. He's think he could play
Speaker 2: around for And that's I think that's pretty cool. And
Speaker 2: I think architecture can have that impectful people. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's that example right there is the proof of him.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you a question. As an architect,
Speaker 1: how does you know, say you go play, you know,
Speaker 1: a new golf course, how do you like, how do
Speaker 1: you look at a golf course different than say an
Speaker 1: average golf band or a you know, even a you know,
Speaker 1: a semi knowledgeable architecture ban. How how does like somebody
Speaker 1: that knows the deep intricacies look at it differently?
Speaker 2: Is it? You know? Well, I think you know one
Speaker 2: thing that may be different in the way I look
Speaker 2: at it, and just say, your your casual architecture ban
Speaker 2: or your your golf club at list poster? Is that
Speaker 2: you know? I think I have a really good understanding
Speaker 2: of the construction process, how things happen, and I can
Speaker 2: look at things and sort of tell right off the bat,
Speaker 2: you know what was going on, what was going on there,
Speaker 2: what was going on here and there? And you can
Speaker 2: kind of see, you know, we're where where mistakes were
Speaker 2: made if there are in fact were mistakes, but the
Speaker 2: negative comment or or maybe you you know, if it's
Speaker 2: a positive thing, you can see where they've paid maybe
Speaker 2: paid some extra attention and and you know, made a
Speaker 2: good tie into a slope and created some interest, you know,
Speaker 2: in an area. A perfect example is by my sister
Speaker 2: in law is a member of the course in Wellesley, Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: cause the Hoos it's an old Styles and van fleet
Speaker 2: and they were, you know, really really good Golden Age
Speaker 2: architect and and I went and walked around the golf
Speaker 2: course one time with her, and you know, call after Hall.
Speaker 2: It's a nine hole golf course that he could use
Speaker 2: a great he could do an incredible restoration there. But
Speaker 2: these kind of Golden Age principles are there on the ground.
Speaker 2: They didn't move much dirt at all, but you can
Speaker 2: tell by the way the golf courses routed that somebody
Speaker 2: who knew what they were doing did it. And this
Speaker 2: is before I knew that it was the styles of
Speaker 2: the bank Cleekue like those the things. The hole that
Speaker 2: I always remember up there as the eighth hole, is
Speaker 2: this some short par three maybe a hundred and forty
Speaker 2: hundreds of the yards or something like that, and it
Speaker 2: plays over this bridge line that kind of plants from
Speaker 2: high on the left to low on the right, so
Speaker 2: it kind of cuts across your visibility as the hole
Speaker 2: in a diagonal way. In a large portion of the
Speaker 2: green is actually blind. In other parts of the green,
Speaker 2: you just kind of catch a little glimpse of the
Speaker 2: flag stick. And that's just the landform that's been there
Speaker 2: for thousands of years. And they just routed. They did
Speaker 2: a good job routing the golf course, and they stuck
Speaker 2: the screen pine and it's just imensely entertaining. Part three.
Speaker 2: And when I saw that, I was like, Okay, somebody
Speaker 2: really clever is I mean, this is an awesome hall,
Speaker 2: and you know, little things like that might be lost
Speaker 2: on your your casual servers and other things where you know,
Speaker 2: people you know, go to that two hundred dollars around
Speaker 2: resort course. I think it's just amazing. If you sit
Speaker 2: there and you look at some of the construction and
Speaker 2: how lazy it was, it just just kind of discussed
Speaker 2: you and you know, so you wonder how they get
Speaker 2: off target that much money, and do you think about, well,
Speaker 2: it's all about marketing and bossy brochures a lot of times,
Speaker 2: and you know, resumation do not, may not be well aren't.
Speaker 2: So you kind of see under the you know, a
Speaker 2: different level of it.
Speaker 1: I think so with you being kind of more of
Speaker 1: a boutique architecture firm, you know, how is the the
Speaker 1: toughest thing getting in the conversation with these bigger name
Speaker 1: brands like say, you know, a Gary Player design or
Speaker 1: a Nickolace designer even nowadays, like a dope renaissance golf
Speaker 1: design is really the first and the big biggest hurdle
Speaker 1: just gang your name and in the mix.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it definitely is it. You know, when
Speaker 2: case Tad and I started as King Collins in two
Speaker 2: thousand and ten and before before we have any projects.
Speaker 2: And the thing that we just kept telling each other
Speaker 2: was if we could just keep one project in the
Speaker 2: ground during the recession, just one, we can prove to
Speaker 2: everyone what we're capable of, and we can take that
Speaker 2: and build on that and we'll we'll actually end up
Speaker 2: being way ahead of a lot of other people because
Speaker 2: number one, it's gonna be extremely hard to build golf
Speaker 2: during the recession. There's not gonna be much built, and
Speaker 2: we believe in ourselves. We believe that what we come
Speaker 2: out with will be good enough that we can can
Speaker 2: build a career on that. We can point to that
Speaker 2: as a example in the ground, real life example of
Speaker 2: our methodology, in our in our possible architecture and construction.
Speaker 2: So we how would you think very very much was
Speaker 2: that in getting that with was huge? And now we
Speaker 2: can point to that and say, look, we we went
Speaker 2: head to head with you know, one of the biggest
Speaker 2: things in golf, and hey, we can do it as
Speaker 2: well as anybody, and we've got fruits, So that's a lot.
Speaker 1: How would you say that you guys, as a brand,
Speaker 1: differentiate yourselves from you know, I know architecture. I think
Speaker 1: of it kind of as an art because everybody's interpretation
Speaker 1: of the land sight is going to be different. But
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes down to, you know, what
Speaker 1: am I getting with King Collins that you know is
Speaker 1: going to be different and unique? What's kind of you guys?
Speaker 1: Are philosophies that are uh, you know, your core differentiators
Speaker 1: from everybody else?
Speaker 2: Well, there aren't many companies out there that do you
Speaker 2: know the design built that I mean, we found it
Speaker 2: that we looked at, you know, well, what are the
Speaker 2: best golf courses in the world have been built in
Speaker 2: the last twenty five years, but every single one of
Speaker 2: them been built you think of a design build model,
Speaker 2: and and so we founded our company on that. On
Speaker 2: that basis, we think that it's far and away the
Speaker 2: best way to do it. You can keep cost down
Speaker 2: while you know, providing it is hugely interesting. Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: features and are artistically constructive, uh, features for the golf court.
Speaker 2: And as far as you know, how how we may
Speaker 2: be different, you know, I don't think that at least
Speaker 2: at this point in time, that anybody can match our
Speaker 2: our our costs and what we're going what what we're
Speaker 2: going to deliver. You know, Tat and I are going
Speaker 2: to be on site majority of the process, all the
Speaker 2: way through. And that's the level of attention to detail
Speaker 2: and getting personalized features built into the course that it's
Speaker 2: just it is is a very rare thing. And and
Speaker 2: I also think that Sweetens Cove shows that, you know,
Speaker 2: we're willing to incapable of doing some some things that
Speaker 2: have a have a really fresh take on architecture. And
Speaker 2: then you know, thirdly, I think sweet and co uh
Speaker 2: shows that we are deeply passionate about what we do.
Speaker 2: And I don't think that there's well, I know that
Speaker 2: there's there's nobody else in the world who would have
Speaker 2: done the things that I've done to get that golf
Speaker 2: course off the ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have been through helen back for a nine hole
Speaker 2: golf course in a floodplain in Tennessee. Okay, nobody is
Speaker 2: gonna match that. I don't think anybody can match that
Speaker 2: level of passion that in that drive. You just there's
Speaker 2: nobody out there that that you can can say that
Speaker 2: they they they would have done when I've when I
Speaker 2: missed that course. And that's why Sweet Go is as
Speaker 2: good as it is. It's because we infused it with
Speaker 2: all of these little details. We never gave up. It's
Speaker 2: got the soul and the spirit to it. This energy.
Speaker 2: This is a result of all of the energy that
Speaker 2: was put into it, and most people don't know. You know,
Speaker 2: the whole story is Sweet Go. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: Jason's interview does a good job with it. But the
Speaker 2: long and short of it is is that the you know,
Speaker 2: the golf course was left for dead in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: I took it over made. It's a good passive personal
Speaker 2: risk to take it over on a long term lease.
Speaker 2: Reclaimed this from what was quickly becoming a patch of weeds,
Speaker 2: got it open. It's been a flavor of love and
Speaker 2: in a passion project from from day one. And and
Speaker 2: it was like that, you know, all the way through construction.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've been over backwards for that for this place.
Speaker 2: And I just I just if you're asking what what
Speaker 2: would we do differently than anyone else, nobody, there is
Speaker 2: nobody that is going to bring the level of passion
Speaker 2: and attention to detail and the hired to use the
Speaker 2: golf course that you characteristics in the way that we do.
Speaker 2: And and furthermore, they can't do it for the price
Speaker 2: that we can do it for we can. We can.
Speaker 2: Nobody in the world can build golf is inexpensively to
Speaker 2: as high of a degree of quality of We've proved
Speaker 2: that a sweep and I'll take that to my great fact.
Speaker 1: That's uh, that's a good sales fish is chief and
Speaker 1: really really good.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm this is gonna sound cocky as hell,
Speaker 2: but it's the truth. Whoever hires us for a great
Speaker 2: piece of land is going to hit the damn jackpot.
Speaker 2: I am so ready to bust out of this cage.
Speaker 2: Whoever gets me next is going to get this fucking
Speaker 2: wild demon who is gonna make them the hell of
Speaker 2: a lot of money. I am just so determined right
Speaker 2: now to build an unbelievable golf course. I know I've
Speaker 2: got it in me. I've got this unbelievably intense, burning
Speaker 2: desire to do it. And if somebody gives us a
Speaker 2: great piece of land, they're going to get something absolutely incredible.
Speaker 2: I mean, we turned a dead flat, blood playing sack
Speaker 2: of ship golf course on seventy two acres into parbuably.
Speaker 2: You know, the best golf course that's not whole golf
Speaker 2: course in the United States, I think the best golf
Speaker 2: course of Tennessee. I think it's better than the Honors
Speaker 2: Course ran Horse. I think better than the Honored course.
Speaker 2: Mm hm, that's that's a pretty amazing accomplishment. Really. Yeah, again,
Speaker 2: I realized that sounds horribly obnoxious for me to be
Speaker 2: two and mild part like that, But it's a it's
Speaker 2: a fact. I mean, if you can prove it, if
Speaker 2: you can do it, it's not not ragging. It's just
Speaker 2: being factful.
Speaker 1: My baddy is you know, joke around with me. I
Speaker 1: talk about Sweden's coach so much that they say I'm
Speaker 1: like the president of the fan club, So I know
Speaker 1: how it's a It's a terrific course. And anybody that's
Speaker 1: spent uh, you know, a day golfing with me probably
Speaker 1: heard at least five things about Sweden's coke. So hey,
Speaker 1: I you know, I wanted to get to some Twitter questions.
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of them, and some really good
Speaker 1: ones that I think are going to have some some
Speaker 1: lengthy responses. If so, thanks for everybody that sent them
Speaker 1: in here. And first we've got Simon Haynes, who's an
Speaker 1: excellent follow. Rob and I were actually talking about how
Speaker 1: thoughtful he is, and he asked the question, are we
Speaker 1: in slash entering a new golden age of golf course
Speaker 1: architecture and if so, what's the driving change?
Speaker 2: I will echo your comment about names. I think he's
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting guys on Twitter. Obviously a
Speaker 2: really sharp, fun guy. I mean that was anyone who
Speaker 2: listens to this podcast, I would definitely follow him. He's
Speaker 2: a lot of fun, a lot of great content out
Speaker 2: of his Twitter handle. That's that's an awesome question, you know,
Speaker 2: right obviously, Mike Kaiser, Tom Doe and core Crenshaw or
Speaker 2: the triumvirates that are largely responsible for ushering in a
Speaker 2: renaissance for the last betteral parts a little nod that
Speaker 2: is Tom business there. But you know, like I said
Speaker 2: earlier in the discussion, Mike, Mike Kaiser is the patron's
Speaker 2: saying of foder scisstic architecture. And he's told the record
Speaker 2: is thinking he's gonna build continue to build golf for
Speaker 2: as long as he lives. And I suspect that, you know,
Speaker 2: barring any unforeseen circumstances, has done well, will carry that
Speaker 2: to work. So there's some people that deserve tremendous nun
Speaker 2: respect for the current renaissance. And I think Simon may
Speaker 2: be alluding to kind of at least my pack on it.
Speaker 2: It is almost a sub renaissance to what's going on
Speaker 2: a second, you know, period of exciting work, and to that,
Speaker 2: I would say, I think that there is and I
Speaker 2: think that it is related to My opinion is that
Speaker 2: it is related to the procession and the recession stuck.
Speaker 2: But the recession also gave me a chance, and it
Speaker 2: also gave a lot of other talented people a chance,
Speaker 2: and it also is forcing a lot of the bluff
Speaker 2: and unnecessary golf golf courses to be flushed down the
Speaker 2: toilet where they belonged. And it is also forcing clients
Speaker 2: in the future, current clients, clients who might be people
Speaker 2: in the future building golf to look really hard if
Speaker 2: what's important and what's necessary, and to do things more efficiently.
Speaker 2: You know, the days of the really massive, overflown, bloated
Speaker 2: budgets that the contributed to this, you know, really boring
Speaker 2: set of homogenous golf courses. I think those days are
Speaker 2: thankfully behind this course. There will still be bad golf
Speaker 2: courses still in the future, but they'll be fewer and
Speaker 2: far between. I think that, you know, the focus on
Speaker 2: doing things efficiently and doing things well can forge a
Speaker 2: new renascence for the lack of the better word going forward.
Speaker 2: And I think that I think that that's that's happening,
Speaker 2: and I think that there there's people like us out
Speaker 2: there who are who are taking part in it, who
Speaker 2: are who can do things sufficiently to a very high
Speaker 2: degree of quality, and that's just going to be more
Speaker 2: good golf and a good pride that's good for the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you see a lot less. I want
Speaker 1: to build a golf courses just as a general is.
Speaker 1: I want to build a great golf course, which has
Speaker 1: helped a ton and kind of change the thought. You know,
Speaker 1: I think quality over quantity is what the recession kind
Speaker 1: of ushered in because less people are trying to build
Speaker 1: golf courses and therefore, you know, the smaller pool of
Speaker 1: architects is a better pool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. That that's that's just that that is. That's
Speaker 2: exactly it.
Speaker 1: So this one's from Trevor Dharmer, who's a fellow architect.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a very close friend of mine, really great guy,
Speaker 2: one of my best friends.
Speaker 1: He wants to know, what's the most interesting natural feature
Speaker 1: that you've seen that you'd like to incorporate on your
Speaker 1: next course.
Speaker 2: Well when I saw that question, Trevor, it reminded me
Speaker 2: of an ill stated project that he and I were
Speaker 2: both going to be involved with called the Montange Club.
Speaker 2: And that was a really cool project that never came
Speaker 2: off in Bernie Bruce, Columbia, which that would have been
Speaker 2: the big one if it had happened for us, but
Speaker 2: it didn't. Our clients decided to plant community gardens and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, which in the Canadian Rockies is like
Speaker 2: plaining grizzly bear food instead of building a great golf course.
Speaker 2: But whatever. On that golf course, there were these really
Speaker 2: cool washes, like these old you know, areas where water
Speaker 2: had drained for thousands and thousands of years, and it
Speaker 2: created these really neat contours and they were all completely playable,
Speaker 2: and we were on the second hole there there are
Speaker 2: these gifts in the ground. It was kind of like
Speaker 2: if you've ever played pasta tempo like some of the
Speaker 2: really great contours that you see on that golf course
Speaker 2: that are those natural swales that Mackenzie incorporated into some
Speaker 2: of the holes there. And we were actually going to
Speaker 2: build a green through one of the natural swales, and
Speaker 2: it would have been really an incredible grain. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was probably the bottom of the swale was probably
Speaker 2: six and a half seven feet below natural grade. But
Speaker 2: we were going to just build the grain right into
Speaker 2: it and have a you know flatch on the back,
Speaker 2: flatch on the front in abile area down there at
Speaker 2: the bottom. And I wish that had happen. I think
Speaker 2: that's really incorporating eight natural drainage washes. That would be
Speaker 2: it would be really fun. I've been a love to
Speaker 2: do something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll include on our on the on the website,
Speaker 1: on the podcast stage, the link to your plan for
Speaker 1: the Montane Club. It's really cool. I took a look
Speaker 1: at it. I spent way too much time reading it.
Speaker 1: But for all you know, kind of architecture geeks, it's
Speaker 1: it's a fun thing to kind of look through what
Speaker 1: could have been.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: So up next we got forrest. And do you try
Speaker 1: and avoid building first holes that face east or finishing
Speaker 1: holes that face west. That's kind of a you know,
Speaker 1: a general old principle.
Speaker 2: Because you know, I mean, yeah, sure I think that,
Speaker 2: I think that ideally, you definitely, you know, you you'd
Speaker 2: want to be careful with that and didn't want to
Speaker 2: avoid that situation. But you know, if the land dictates
Speaker 2: certain things, I mean sometimes you know, you're almost always
Speaker 2: going to have to make concessions kind of one one
Speaker 2: form or another, uh, in order to make the routing work.
Speaker 2: And you know, if you've got a great routing, but
Speaker 2: that's your one concession, I mean I would make it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to build a a less
Speaker 2: good hole just because of the sunrise or where the
Speaker 2: sun sets. I mean, you wouldn't want to use kind
Speaker 2: of an absolute in other words, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: You could, you would want to try to avoid it.
Speaker 2: But if you can't, You've got a great golf hole
Speaker 2: and a great routing. You're not going to destroy that
Speaker 2: build a less good golf hole just because of the
Speaker 2: where the stunt rising are studying. That's what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's but.
Speaker 2: You're taking into consideration, but you're not going to It's
Speaker 2: not going to be a black or white issue.
Speaker 1: Trying to say this one's from goes to Hogan. Can
Speaker 1: new golf courses be built to speed up play or
Speaker 1: is that on the golfer?
Speaker 2: That's ah, I love that question. I think golf courses
Speaker 2: can absolutely be built to improve be the play. In fact,
Speaker 2: that just did a master plan for Sickle Mountain Golfing
Speaker 2: country Club, which is of course I grew up playing
Speaker 2: as a kid, and there are huge log jam issues
Speaker 2: on the back nine, and I think that our plan
Speaker 2: addresses of and if fact golf course gets built in
Speaker 2: the way that that we designed it, which I hope
Speaker 2: it will. I think that rounds will go just there
Speaker 2: from being you know, four kind of four and a
Speaker 2: half plus hours logs to you know ones where you
Speaker 2: can get around in two and a half hours. It's
Speaker 2: like fly around the course because of how we did it,
Speaker 2: how we opened it up. I dressed a lot of
Speaker 2: the flow issues, the connectivity between halls. So absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that's a that has to be considered. And
Speaker 2: I would encourage people to look at that Sickle Mountain
Speaker 2: plan and I talked about the flow of the golf
Speaker 2: courses there. It's very important.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think with too. You know, as
Speaker 1: Mackenzie wrote tirelessly about you know, the golfers shouldn't be
Speaker 1: looking for the gospel.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if if you had your pick of grasses and
Speaker 1: turf conditions for an ideal course, what would they be?
Speaker 1: And this is from Lincoln.
Speaker 2: Duh Uh you gotta go. You gotta go with the
Speaker 2: classic uh, firm and fast, uh best view. I can
Speaker 2: go back to the Mons tank cluff. We were actually
Speaker 2: gonna do it. We were gonna do better few fairways
Speaker 2: there and we would have had we would have done
Speaker 2: Bence Green, which which under proper management, can be extremely
Speaker 2: firm and fast. The best greens I've ever played in
Speaker 2: my life. U were at San Hill that's just past summer,
Speaker 2: but the summer before that, I mean the greens were
Speaker 2: so firm, it's so good. It was ridiculous. I mean
Speaker 2: that they were unbelievable him And you know with with
Speaker 2: super fast tight surrounds and the fairways the best you
Speaker 2: can deliver you both both down real tight, man, So
Speaker 2: you can't that's the best mm hmm. Yeah, we got
Speaker 2: to get that. We try to get that as tweets go.
Speaker 2: I mean four nineteen Bermudo you can go real low
Speaker 2: with it and we get it. We get a firmit
Speaker 2: fast there. I mean that's a lot of fun too.
Speaker 2: I mean it's it's a good it's a good uh
Speaker 2: you know, representation of it mm hmm. And our diperintendent
Speaker 2: gets those greens fast and not the speed is all
Speaker 2: the better that there's you know that they're they're firm
Speaker 2: and that they roll out they play well. So I
Speaker 2: mean you can do it on warm season gratch to too.
Speaker 2: But if you just got to have the right people
Speaker 2: in place to deliver it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then it's I think you guys did
Speaker 1: as a. I mean my experience at Swings Code of
Speaker 1: course is in perfect shape. So I hear it, it's
Speaker 1: only gotten better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, bread's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: So we're going to go into a little bit of
Speaker 1: a rapid fire and your buddy Riley has got the
Speaker 1: first question here. Have you ever had poutine?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? You can't live a year and a half in
Speaker 2: Canada not get the national dishe you know, So SE's
Speaker 2: the bomb Absolutely came about one hundred pounds in a
Speaker 2: two hours sitting. But you know the core of it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, who's the best architect that most people have
Speaker 1: never heard of? And this can be Golden Age or modern.
Speaker 2: I don't know. The one that pops out to me
Speaker 2: that nobody's really overheard of is av Thecan. You know
Speaker 2: he did some really great stuff. I mean he loved
Speaker 2: why corridor strategy. Kad McCann did a lot of the
Speaker 2: strategy at cal Clove, and McKenzie did a couple of
Speaker 2: degrees and the bunkering. But you know, the lion's share
Speaker 2: of the strategy and the with and everything is calp Club,
Speaker 2: which happens to be one of my absolute favorite places
Speaker 2: on the planet. Is does Av the can. I mean,
Speaker 2: how many people have heard of that guy? And he
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna google them after this.
Speaker 2: Yeah he's fatass.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So what is the one public course and one private
Speaker 3: course that are kind of like next on your list
Speaker 3: of places to check out that you haven't checked out
Speaker 3: that you're really excited about seeing.
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, well, I've kind of got an open invitation
Speaker 2: of Prairie Dunes, which I'm super excited about, so that
Speaker 2: that is the way way up the list. I really
Speaker 2: want to see the Old Town. I'm extremely intrigued by
Speaker 2: what poor Frenshaw did there. I know they didn't have
Speaker 2: a slutely amazing job with that, So I can't wait
Speaker 2: to be Old Town. I know, I'm kind of shooting
Speaker 2: and gifting more one, but definitely excited about Fairy Day.
Speaker 1: What about the public.
Speaker 2: Probably h I'll tell you one off the top the bat.
Speaker 2: He goes back to something early in the conversation about
Speaker 2: three places off the beat half the beat, the fants
Speaker 2: off of a lot of the other fancy stuff. This
Speaker 2: placed by friend Reeve's Milliken found called Eagle Springs Resort
Speaker 2: in Wisconsin. Yeah. Oh, the pictures look in same Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like the Army did an LSD experiment, gave the
Speaker 2: designer of the massive and telling him to go out
Speaker 2: the time of golf course. I mean, it's crazy, but
Speaker 2: it looks absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it yet, and it's been on my
Speaker 1: short list, and you know, one of my buddies went out.
Speaker 1: I mean they have like and for those that I haven't,
Speaker 1: you should google Eagle Springs Volcano Green and it's.
Speaker 2: One of the most.
Speaker 1: Let's just say, yeah, that's it's on my list and
Speaker 1: I'm kind of ashamed I haven't seen it. It's in
Speaker 1: my backyard.
Speaker 2: So oh well, maybe Chicago after spring and we'll go
Speaker 2: play this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, we'll play a few places if you
Speaker 1: do that. All right, So how about Mount Rushmore? So
Speaker 1: four architects living or dead? Who are who is on
Speaker 1: your Mount Rushmore?
Speaker 2: Well, you gotta have the kind.
Speaker 1: If they're a duo, they go as one.
Speaker 2: With the duo, you gotta go with one.
Speaker 1: No, no, they go in as one.
Speaker 2: I'll go go in at one. M Well, you gotta
Speaker 2: go with the Kinz. I mean I think she's have
Speaker 2: to also go with old Tom that would be kind
Speaker 2: of silly to put him there living. I mean, you've
Speaker 2: gotta give a NodD to you know, Court Crenshaw. I mean,
Speaker 2: they're absolutely at the top of the game, and they
Speaker 2: deserve to be. They're they're absolutely on fire. They turn
Speaker 2: out one great golf course after another billboard if they
Speaker 2: Crenshaw both or both architects, and they have phenomenally talented
Speaker 2: people working for them, they've just got to awesome just
Speaker 2: about and and Fred guys on top of that. So
Speaker 2: you gotta gotta go with that. Uh, And then you know,
Speaker 2: I would say, uh, maybe cult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got a lot of really good courses across the.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a tough question, and you're really splitting hairs,
Speaker 2: But I mean, I think, god this, of course, I
Speaker 2: think you can also make a really strong argument for
Speaker 2: Pete Die as well, because you know, I would replaced
Speaker 2: I almost put Pete Dial there is the poor really
Speaker 2: because he really brought modern architecture out of adult Rum
Speaker 2: and that's an incredible service to the world of golf.
Speaker 2: And it took a hell of a lot of boldness
Speaker 2: and brilliant and everything else to do what he did.
Speaker 2: So I was, you know, the Kims the old time.
Speaker 2: That's a good, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty
Speaker 2: solid lift. And then of course it's kind of cool
Speaker 2: that if you put the down there, then you've got
Speaker 2: Cork f Renshaw there. And I'm you know, I was
Speaker 2: talking to Bill Score a couple of months ago about
Speaker 2: working him working with me Di. I mean that's the
Speaker 2: direct link. So I think that's a kind of an
Speaker 2: inn well intertwined list.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, absolutely, five the.
Speaker 2: Modern masters and disputed champions right now at Cort Frindshaw
Speaker 2: if he died too, helped get up there, and then
Speaker 2: he withdrew from Old Tom and the Kissie And yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's the list.
Speaker 1: Old Tom was the original guy that everybody drew from exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then uh, let's say top your your five favorite
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean you're top, but your favorite five golf
Speaker 3: courses that you've.
Speaker 2: Played Old Course, Uh, Sork Barrack, Uh, Pinehurst number two, Uh,
Speaker 2: sand Hills, sand Hill definitely ay, and I think Santels
Speaker 2: is the fourth to us. I think you probably have
Speaker 2: a good national golf link. M h.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good, good, pretty good.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 1: Last question, if if you could redo one thing one
Speaker 1: thing you did at Sweeten's co What would it be?
Speaker 1: And how often do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Say other great questions, and it's something we talk about
Speaker 2: and every now and again. The one thing that would
Speaker 2: change about sweet Ago is rather than having individual chi boxes,
Speaker 2: I would have flowed everything from built basically just a
Speaker 2: little flat spots in the fair way. It has little
Speaker 2: flat spots all over the place. Ye have a bunch
Speaker 2: of different angles, and we we as much as we
Speaker 2: could in the confines of the routing that that we can.
Speaker 2: We tried to build the tees perpendicular to the line
Speaker 2: of play as much as possible to get those different angles.
Speaker 2: Like the poor Tea box is a perfect example of that.
Speaker 2: The space allowed us to do that, and so getting
Speaker 2: variety in the T box was important. But we could
Speaker 2: have gotten even more if I had just had kind
Speaker 2: of a free flowing tea box, kind of like what
Speaker 2: we designed at the Contank Club, where you just put
Speaker 2: a peg in the ground wherever you find a flat spot.
Speaker 2: And you know, that would have I think that would
Speaker 2: have I would have liked that. And you know, who knows,
Speaker 2: maybe one day we'll know everyone day will change that,
Speaker 2: but not not in the foreseeable future. But that that's
Speaker 2: something that I would like to see. It doesn't. I
Speaker 2: don't walk around and go, God, I really screwed that up.
Speaker 2: I was a huge mistake or anything, but it's something
Speaker 2: I would would I would be happy to be changed.
Speaker 2: The other thing I actually I will say one quick
Speaker 2: thing that I absolutely want to change it, and I
Speaker 2: could change just the short term without a huge amount
Speaker 2: of work, is on the Radan hole built the nice
Speaker 2: hole in sweet and Scope. There's a little pocket of
Speaker 2: a bunker behind the green, and my intention when we
Speaker 2: built that golf hole was for there to be an
Speaker 2: equal percentage chance of being able to play it up
Speaker 2: the right side, like with a five iron, for instance,
Speaker 2: and have it loop pard and turn left and lay
Speaker 2: dead as the whole far left side. And it's a
Speaker 2: it's just as equally as good of a chance that
Speaker 2: that shot happening is flying at dead at the hall
Speaker 2: with sand pitching wed or a nine iron. And right
Speaker 2: now it's a little bit out of balance in that
Speaker 2: too many balls collecting that bunker behind the green. I
Speaker 2: would still in this one little pocket of the bunker,
Speaker 2: it's about twenty feet wide, can turn that into a
Speaker 2: fairway ramp that would help direct more balls down to
Speaker 2: that left side. I just I missed that a little bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just one of those details that's just
Speaker 2: it kind of slipped past me. I mean, I thought
Speaker 2: that what we had in the ground was gonna turn
Speaker 2: balls harder than it did, and it turns them, but
Speaker 2: just the margin of error is more finite than I
Speaker 2: had tipped. Because you can do it. I wanted to be.
Speaker 2: I wanted to be an easier shop to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine I, at least I would be. I'd
Speaker 1: be a big second. I don't think I could make
Speaker 1: it as an architect. I'd just be I'd be afraid
Speaker 1: to pull the trigger on a hole. I'd be like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that this is gonna work. You know,
Speaker 1: I'd be in the I'd be in the drawing face
Speaker 1: for years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you never know, man, that might be the trick.
Speaker 1: But hey, I really appreciate the time, Rob. I want
Speaker 1: to get you out of here and and and this,
Speaker 1: and I think we're right a little over an hour
Speaker 1: so but you know, we'll definitely have to have you
Speaker 1: on again. I hope people like this look into architecture
Speaker 1: a little deep. Dive. If so, let us know. We'll
Speaker 1: do more architect podcast and architecture based podcast. But Rob
Speaker 1: really appreciate the time and thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2: It is awesome to be on. Andy. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for your support a week ago and for the
Speaker 2: platform today. I had a blast talking about it. Thanks
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: All right, thanks a lot.
Speaker 2: Rob. We'll talk to you soon, all right, buddy, see
Speaker 2: you