WEBVTT - Rob Collins 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.360 All right, we're back for another edition of the Frida 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.080 Egg Podcast. We've got a second one in the last 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.720 seven days. Here. This time, we're going to change speeds 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.680 and go into one of my favorite realms of golf, 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.040 golf course architecture, and with us as a guest. We've 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.840 got Rob Collins who's a golf course architect based out 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.640 of Chattanooga, Tennessee, and he and his partner Ted King 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:34.280 are responsible for the nine hole masterpiece Sweeten's Cove. Sweeten's 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:39.080 Cove has a cult like following amongst architecture fans, and 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:40.720 we're really happy to have Rob on. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.520 Great to be here. I'm thrilled to be on the podcast. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:46.640 I appreciate yet. 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.000 Yeah, definitely, I mean it's uh. I got the chance 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:57.480 to play Sweeten's Cove in May of this year down 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:02.240 in Knoxville for a wedding, and yuh saw that chat 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.319 Nuga was only about two hours away and knew I 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.880 could squeeze in nine holes if I got on the 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.880 road about five forty five and got it done, and 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.400 it was. It was a experience that kind of changes 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.800 the way you think about golf. I think, you know, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.320 you look at a lot of different people and their 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.520 opinion on it, and that, you know, the resounding opinion 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.240 seems to be that it changes the way that you 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.600 think about golf. And you know, one of the worst 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.760 things about Sweeten's Cove is generally leaving. So congrats doing 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.319 a great job there. It's been fun to kind of 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.720 watch all these new people's opinion and I'm sure you 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.000 get the same satisfaction. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.080 Oh, we really do. It's been a thrill. I was 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.760 thinking today. We started checking back and forth a little 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.600 bit about the podcast. You know, when we were building 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:02.920 sweet co I could tell, you know, early on that 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.520 it was really good. It was really really good, and 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:11.520 I was really really excited about it. But I can't 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.880 I don't. And I knew that it would speak on 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.600 a kind of a deep level to a lot of people, 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.760 to a certain steps of people. I thought there was 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:25.000 as the market out there for it, and that it would, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.520 like I said, it would really feel strongly to a 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.720 certain stuff that of the golf population. So that wasn't 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.640 really a surprise that the amount of sublicity that we've 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.840 gotten out of it and the degree to which we've 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.680 you know, received a lot of you know, kind remarks 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.960 and great publicity and everything else is exceeded my expectations. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:54.359 So we're really really pleased with everything, and it's it's 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.120 the thrill to see it continue to grow and continue 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.160 to get more attention, and it means the world for 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:06.480 me to see people react to it that way. When 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.880 we were out there doing it, those long, difficult days 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:17.080 where nobody's watching and you're working your butt off, you know, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.320 you was trying to think, you know, one day somebody's 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.639 gonna get this, they're gonna appreciate it, and it kind 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.079 of gets through the day on that thought that now 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.960 that people are reacting to it in the way that 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.600 they are, thinks all those long tough days worth it. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.280 So it really is a thrill. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:41.480 Yeah, I think seeing you know, Rob's recently posted a 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:46.440 lot of before and after photos and Jason Way of 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.160 geekon golf dot Com did a great piece with Rob 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.880 on kind of how he got into architecture and you know, 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.680 a very detailed look at the Swedens ghost story that 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.920 I highly recommend anybody that hasn't checked it out. But 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.400 you know, as getting into you know, golf course architecture, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.560 and I know this was kind of your first solo 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.280 gig at it. I'd love to hear a little bit 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.400 about how you got into it. I think every architecture 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.000 fan that's an average Joe like myself has had the 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.560 dream at one point or still has the dream of 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.680 building a golf course. And I'd just love to hear 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:29.919 about kind of the industry, how you get started, and 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.200 how you got started and you know, have built your 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.080 career to this point that I think that'd be great 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.400 for the readers to sort and the listeners to hear. 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.640 Well. I think I was like a lot of kids 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.640 real early on, so maybe kind of vaguely remember it's 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.080 fifth or sixth grade, maybe seventh grade, definitely, I remember 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.680 seventh grade drawing golf holes in the side of the oat books. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.640 I think that's I think that's pretty common for people 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.159 who get into golf at an early age. So I 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:12.000 was kind of like everyone else in that sense. And 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:17.880 I went went to college as Swanni and then got 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.480 out and I graduated ninety seven, and really what I 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.920 really wanted to do was go be a golf course architect, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.680 but I really had absolutely no idea of how to 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.760 go about doing that. I mean, I knew that there 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.000 were golf course architects out there obviously, and the thing 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.880 had somehow gotten to that position in life. But I 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:44.520 didn't understand how you could go from being a graduate 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.760 of a liberal arts college and it actually turned that 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:54.200 into a into a profession so bizarre and strange golf 0:05:54.200 --> 0:06:01.200 course architecture. And so basically I've kind of chickened out 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.839 for four or five years, kind of put it on 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.200 holds that I dreamed on halls, and I went and 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.360 worked in Atlanta, and I enjoyed my time down there. 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.919 Was kind of a good post college time, and I 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.680 had a few different jobs, one of which was basically 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.800 the same as the job that the guy in office 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.719 space had. I mean, it was absolutely miserable, and I 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.120 think it was important to go through that because I 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.640 realized that I really really did not want to spend 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.880 the rest of my life doing something I didn't love 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:38.400 to care about. And yeah, during that time, I researched 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.560 ways to get into the business and came around to 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.680 the opinions that the best way for me to do 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.360 it would be to go back to graduate school and 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.760 get a landscape architecture degree. I thought that would basically 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:59.600 provide the foundation educational foundation that I would need to 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:02.479 you have some of the most basic skills that I 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:07.120 could use to transition that into an actual job. And 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.080 so I went back to Misisippi State, which that was 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:14.040 one of the programs that actually welcomed me with the 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.720 open arms and my interest in golf courts architecture. I 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.080 made it extremely clear to the department head and it's 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.800 my major professor, that I did not give a damn 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.480 about landscape architecture. I was there for one reason and 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.240 one reason only, and that was to be a golf 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.960 course architect and they they were fully supportive of that. 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.400 I mean, I was not dismissive or rude anyway towards 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:41.320 landscape architects or profession of landscape architecture, but they understood that, 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:45.360 you know, I was going to use those skills, which 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.120 are very valuable skills, and I'm really really glad I 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.160 went back to school to do it, but that I 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.240 was going to use those skills for some extremely specific 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.640 stuffs that of do you want to call golf course 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.240 architecture a stuff stead of my step architecture, I mean 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.320 it's kind of a I think more a mariage of 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:10.520 engineering and plant spy architecture and in art, but anyway, 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.440 that was that's kind of what I did. And I 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.800 was fortunate to finish up and graduate in two thousand 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.440 and five when they were still building golf courts and 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:27.960 domestically at a very fast race, so it was actually 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.280 possible for someone like me to get out of school 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:37.920 and get a get a position. And I worked while 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.960 I was in school. I had an internship with the 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:47.920 with the really super guy Raleigh, a guy named Rick Robins, 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.880 a very accomplished architect who's the former president of the 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.400 a s GTA, worked for Nicholas for a long time 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.520 in Asia, just had a ton of experience with wealth 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.040 and dollarge about the profession. He's the first guy who 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:09.120 ever believed in me and always really have a fine 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.960 place in my heart for Rick and his wife Ginger, 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.400 and Brian Lucier who was in the office there, and 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.080 another guy, Jeff Westmoreland. I learned a lot from all them, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:25.599 and and then I transitioned that into a designed coordinator 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.360 role with Gary Player Design, where I was basically on 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.520 site day to day on a on a couple of 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.880 different projects with them, And that was a wonderful experience 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:43.640 because I've that that helped me understand the link between 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.640 a finished golf course and the just the conceptual planning 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.160 phase which I had gotten in school, and and it's 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.360 it's kind of the first stage of it. But the 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.559 really important stuff is what happened in the field. That's 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.640 where I've fell in love with construction. And and then 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.800 UH after the second that the second in last project 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.400 I did it was with Player in the field was 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.160 a really neat golf course up in Cranebrook, British Columbia 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:15.719 called Wildstone and worked with their UH senior designer on 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.480 that project, guy named Jeff Lawrence. Learned a ton from 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.960 Jeff and and Frank and against the other the other 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.800 designer there, but Jeff and I for Players the main 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.880 people of all that project. And that was a really 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.800 a really great experience. But it was one that UH 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:41.840 was touched short by the recession, and it did eventually 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.640 get finished and is now opened. That I had to 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.360 move home and and came back to Chattanooga, and I 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.920 was determined not to give up on my dream, and 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.080 I formed King College Golf Course Design with my good 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:02.000 friend and now business partners had King And so I 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.920 think that CAT I think of it's a great team 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:10.360 where our skills, you know, our our skill sets compliment 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:15.160 one another really well. And I wanted to do design 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.640 build like the work I always wanted to be on 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.800 on my own. That was always my vision. I actually 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.920 remember when I interviewed with Player, I said something really 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.080 stupid at hindsight, got there all. The president of Gary 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.720 Player Design asked me what my long term plans were, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.079 and I told him that I wanted to be out 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.280 on my own eventually, which is really funny thinking back 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.000 on it. I mean, I can't believe I said that. 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.520 I mean, usually you would keep a little stuff like that, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.160 like she would go in to that interview and be like, 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:47.880 I want to work for Gary Player for the rest 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 of my life, which I mean, I was extremely honored 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.600 to even be sitting in that room at their office 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.240 and call me Scarves. That was a really really big 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.640 deal for me, right out of ground to it, and 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.080 I was, you know, God's a great guy. I mean, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.839 I love all those guys. But it's funny thinking back 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.320 on that that I was so determined to make the 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.559 name for myself that I have blurted that out and 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:22.160 interviewed and that was in a way the recession was 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.000 the thing that was not in a way, it did 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.440 force my hand. It forced me to go on, which 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.000 is where I always wanted to be. So had those 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.360 of us through a couple of years of tell of 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.360 not being involved in of course, architecture at all while 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:41.319 the economy sort of stabilized and and then we got 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.840 Lusky and had this little nine hole thing follow our lapse, 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.520 you know, the rest of history. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:54.719 Yeah, it's uh, it's interesting how the universe kind of 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.920 connects itself. But you know, at the same time, I 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:01.680 think as a you know, an employer's got like when 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.640 people want to you know, do great things and want 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.200 to build a brand of their own to a certain extent, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.679 you know, when you're hiring a you know, entry level 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.200 early employee, you want to hear motivation rather than somebody 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.080 that just you know, wants to be around the office 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.240 and you know, slowly working their way up. You know. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.120 So I think it could go either way, and lustily 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:24.360 for you, it went the right way. 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.320 Yeah, yeah, I am lucky that. I mean, maybe Scott 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.600 I thought that was funny and it kind of laughed off, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.040 or maybe he saw to that as being someone who 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.160 was motivated to do a great job and could benefit 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:42.000 their their organization. I don't never actually talked to Scott 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.400 about that. Never even really I've ever mentioned that to anybody. 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.520 I've talked to my wife about it. I mean, tell 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:55.080 was that thing. But you know that's that's just where 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.600 my mind was. I always wanted to be all biled. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.439 I really really really want it to have a my 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:06.120 own branch file boy. That was always really important. And 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:13.200 we were so lucky to get just a questionriality job. 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:18.280 I mean it was although I will say Gary speaking 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.040 a Gary player, he has a great quote which is 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.400 the harder I worked, the luckier I guess. So we 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.360 all we did make our own luck, and we put 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.400 ourselves in a position to get lucky. But in many 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.280 many ways we were lucky too. Not only did we 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.360 get the project, but one thing we were extremely lucky 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:44.480 with was our our client, the concrete manufacturer out of 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:50.000 South Pittsburgh and Chattdigger area, and they had this old 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.440 golf course that they wanted too to redo and and 0:14:53.600 --> 0:15:00.640 Reece Thomas By my client was a great guy and 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.840 uh his he just totally trusted us and to be 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.480 to have someone right out of the vat right out 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.320 of the gate. Trust you in the way that Reese 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.320 trusted me and had is rare. I mean, we could 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.120 have had somebody that our first client, who shot down 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.880 all of our wild ideas. Because if Sweeten's COVID is, 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.280 it's not normal. I mean, it's far from it. 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.680 And it's very. 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:34.920 It's extremely bold. And you know, we were walking, we 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.040 were walking a very fine line, and there was this 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:43.240 hairy line to walk during construction to go through all that, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.400 and but you know, Reese was the was the rock 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:51.000 and he he really believed that what we were doing 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:55.280 was special, that it was right, and that's that's pretty remarkable. 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.320 I mean, that's the total saught stuff. I mean, you 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:03.440 hear stories about other people who first clients or don't 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.200 trust something necessarily and you know, put too many restrictions 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.200 on the reefs. Let us do our thing, and and 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.240 that that was huge and that's why Sweetens Go. That's 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.320 a big part of the reason why sweets Go turned 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:20.160 out so well. So, you know, to the point about 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:24.120 Sweden's being bold, it is it is certainly that. And 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.800 I had some I had some sleepless nights during construction wondering, 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:36.200 you know, do we push it too far and and 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.840 that's was something that I've just kind of always wanted 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.000 to guard against. I mean, I knew, I knew I 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.720 wanted to do something bold. I wanted to do I 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:50.200 wanted to do something unique, and I'm and I knew 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.280 that there was a line there, but where exactly that 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:59.920 line is is open to interpretation. And if I had 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:06.000 not been on site every single day, the balloon that 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:10.760 was we Cove, of the helium balloon could have become 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.760 untethered from the from the ground, from it's boring and 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.399 thrifts it off into space and kind of evolved into 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.560 something that was just but not very good. It was 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.440 not grounded. And that's I think that's what I take 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.480 the most pride in really about weeks Cove is that 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:37.840 it is a really really unique, really really really bold vision, 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:43.880 but it does not come unflued from the foundational principles 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:48.720 of what a great golf course does and what it 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.480 should be. And that that was really hard to do 0:17:52.720 --> 0:18:00.800 because the physical manifestation of those kinds of those architectural 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:06.360 ideas that Sweeten Cove are presented in a very unique 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.640 and different line than most other golf courses. So it's 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.640 hard to create something that looks can feel so different, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.960 that has an extremely bold flavor while keeping it grounded 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.320 in a stead of you know, five or six or 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.440 seven key principles and that that was the grind every 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.800 single day off site, you know, just making sure that 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:36.040 all this really whole crazy stuff we were doing wasn't 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.480 flying into the ether and turning into a giant island 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:45.040 craft that was it wasn't instead of they grounded that. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.000 That was hard and I'm really really proud of that 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.080 because we kept it grounded. I mean, Sweeden Cove is 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:56.040 grounded in these tried and true principles, but it's expressed 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.480 in a way that I think is really unique. And 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.120 that was my goal going in. That was hard to achieve, 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.720 but I think we did this. Yeah. 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.440 I think that where you know, architecture can go wrong. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.440 And I think one of the things I loved about 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.880 Sweens coach so much was the you know, the general 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.720 idea of with off the tee that kept everybody in 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.359 the in the ball game, but then taking you know, 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.720 our a established you know green complex because in principles 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.760 like you know, the first green for everybody that you 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.440 know hasn't played there is a really cool it's got 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.440 a a it's a short part five, so it's reachable 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.639 in two. But you have a really interesting green complex 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.000 that's on the left side, got a redan kind of 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.800 kicker in and then you and then on the right 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.359 side of the green is a punch bowl. So you 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:53.320 get these interesting blends that are very is, very boldly contoured. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.480 But the architecture goes back to the Golden Age principles. 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.119 And I think, you know, and i'd be interest to 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.439 hear your take, is, you know, my general you know 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.960 philosophy of where golf course architecture went wrong during this 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.520 dark age that we were in for you know, the 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.920 forties through the you know, early sixties, is that people 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.040 trying to reinvent the wheel as opposed to you know, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.959 taking making small tweaks to the tried and true principles. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.639 So I'd love to hear how you draw on, you know, 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.880 those Golden Age architects and the and the great architects 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:33.080 of even today for inspiration when you go into your 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:33.959 and do your design. 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:39.480 Yeah, that's that's that's that's an interesting, uh area to 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.280 dig into it. I mean, I think I think the 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.760 first so I think the first question was where did 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.320 it go wrong? And how do you avoid that? I mean, 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:56.239 you know, the Golden Age architect you know kind of 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:03.520 all were focused on strategic principles. They were you know, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:10.840 they were interested in creating a canvas that had variety 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:20.800 strategy work, you know, interesting bold features that were unique 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.040 in their own rights, that that were at the same 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.280 time kind of grounded and some of the kind of 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.240 foundational principles that that you learned from the best courses 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:37.800 of Great Britain, Ireland and the golf stage. Architects by 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:44.080 a large weren't afraid to try new things, to do bold, 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:49.320 interesting work, to do working things. And I think that 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.639 one of the things has golf shifted kind of post 0:21:53.720 --> 0:22:02.360 war was that golf became very much in its creation 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:08.520 and its presentation architect quick doing interesting, bold thing they 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.560 they I think part of that is because it was 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.280 you know, closely tied to housing and other real estate 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:22.200 based interest that did not have golf as the central interest. 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:26.280 But golf was instead an amenity. And if you view 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:31.240 golf as an aminity as a side show, it's easier 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:39.919 to create. So basically just uh, for the lack of 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.760 a better word, template holes that are you know, just 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:48.480 just completely bland, not like a templet all intensive brainer, 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.080 but just if you're just repeating the same ideas over 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.480 and over, like I'm gonna put a put a bunker 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.760 on the inside of this dog leg here, and then man, 0:22:57.840 --> 0:22:59.959 it's a green, there's gonna be a bunker on the left, 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.399 a bunker on the right. Okay, we'll move on to 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.320 the next one. And so I think that that just 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:09.560 became the just a very common way to do it. 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:14.720 And there was an obsession as well with fairness, which 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.760 is just so stupid. It's not part of golf. People 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.160 became obsessed with fairness and having every single thing visible 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.160 out in front of them. You know, they just golf 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.280 just drifted away from from the lessons of the old 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:33.760 course and and the you know, the things that the 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:38.240 the great architects with the golf age where we're into 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:43.679 and and so it's it's just really, uh, there was 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.680 just a lot of really really bad golf course still 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.520 and and I think it was hard to break out 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:55.159 of that. Then you know, along came he Die, and 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.200 all of a sudden, there's this wild guy who's doing 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:03.639 all this amazing, fold interesting work that's based on strategic 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.919 principles and he certainly had a lot of player and 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.720 was doing all kinds of things that were you know, 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.600 in the spirit of the golden age of you know, 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:20.879 great brend in Ireland. And so you know that you 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.600 can look into the farther into the modern era and 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.600 you know who worked for he died a still poor 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.399 is Tom Doak. And you know the leaders of the 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:38.119 last twenty five years or directed that with his his 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:44.160 vision and his greatness. And you know that there's been 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:49.040 some incredible golf courses built in the last you know, 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:53.199 in the early nineties, and and I think that people 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:58.399 have been getting obviously and I think people don't realize, 0:24:58.440 --> 0:25:00.399 but that have been getting back to those kind of 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:05.560 four principles and ideas and thoughts and there's more artistry 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:11.399 or or or interesting things going on in architecture. And 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.159 it's it's it's a relief. 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:19.200 Mm hmmm. So do you see kind of the interest 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:23.120 in golf course of course architecture from the general golfer 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:29.199 increasing since you've got it back into the field or 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:32.280 has it kind of remained the same or you know what, 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.240 what have you seen from kind of golf course architecture 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:38.200 becoming more mainstream. 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.480 I think it's definitely becoming more mainstream. But you know, 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:48.520 the patrons saying of golf course architecture is this patizer 0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:55.600 and you know, he's built these defically successful developments and 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:03.040 that's what he's done. Stand Indus in particular has had 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:08.520 a huge ripple effect throughout the golf world. And I 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:13.080 think that, you know, he alone has helped create an 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.440 awareness of what what good architecture is. Even if people 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:19.680 don't you know, have a interested there maybe some sort 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.879 of passing interests and at least they they may not 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:25.680 understand why they like what they like or they they 0:26:26.000 --> 0:26:27.800 they may not be able to carry a discussion on 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:30.560 about it, but they can they're at least aware of it. 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:35.240 And that's a change. And so I think that, you know, 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:37.320 I think that there is there is a higher degree 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:42.879 of interest in architecture, and especially you know, due to 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.760 the wonders of the Internet. Just spoken with with this 0:26:47.920 --> 0:26:54.240