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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is Bridget, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. Today, we are

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Speaker 1: so excited to be joined by Elisa Chrissinger, executive producer

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Speaker 1: over at Refinery nine, who hosts a awesome, fierce feminist

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Speaker 1: podcast and video series called Strong Opinions Loosely Held. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for tuning in today to help us talk

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Speaker 1: through this very fraught subject. Alisa, We're so glad to

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Speaker 1: have you. Okay, thanks so much for having me. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to walk through this with you, guys. So

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Speaker 1: Elisa and I actually go way back. I guess I

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Speaker 1: should say, Alisa, Taylor Swift and I go way back.

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Speaker 1: Alisa put together a fabulous, fabulous panel at south By

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Speaker 1: Southwest last year all about celebrities and activism, and Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift came up quite a bit. The number one question

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Speaker 1: that we left that panel with was who did Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift to vote for? Later on, I was on an

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Speaker 1: episode of her really amazing show talking about Taylor Swift

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Speaker 1: and all the ins and outs of who she is

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Speaker 1: as a feminist, as an artist and all of that.

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Speaker 1: So we really alsa, we really go way back when

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Speaker 1: it comes to we do totally. And I think it

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Speaker 1: kind of started when you posted that thing on Facebook

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Speaker 1: about who your most problematic save was, and I scrolled

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Speaker 1: through it and so many people said Taylor Swift exactly,

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Speaker 1: and that was when we started this series. You may

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Speaker 1: recall our lovely listeners. The first episode we did on

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Speaker 1: Problematic Faves was with the One and Only Judge Judy,

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Speaker 1: which was such a fun episode and I loved putting

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Speaker 1: that together. And I'm not gonna lie when I dropped

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Speaker 1: in that Taylor Swift was my problematic fave, and so

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Speaker 1: many of you agreed. I have been dragging my feet

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Speaker 1: putting this episode together because I was seriously dreading it. Well,

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Speaker 1: people love Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift, and I

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Speaker 1: have to come out first and foremost by saying the

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Speaker 1: reason problematic saves are hard is because you're trying to reconcile.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we're gonna trying to do today with

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Speaker 1: everybody here. How you can both respect and love the

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Speaker 1: artistry of someone like Taylor Swift and hold them accountable totally.

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Speaker 1: I think she represents a great example of how you

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Speaker 1: can be both a fan of popular culture but a

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Speaker 1: critic of it. At the same time, exactly what I

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Speaker 1: think we should do today, as so many people are

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Speaker 1: tuning into this thinking like, Okay, walk me through this.

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Speaker 1: I've I've seen the tweets. Have you seen these? Bridget

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Speaker 1: to our Twitter handle saying I need you to unpack

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift for me because I have so many feels

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Speaker 1: for her. So what I'd like to start with is

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Speaker 1: what about her do we love and respect? And what

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Speaker 1: about her is seriously problematic and worthy of of breaking down?

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Speaker 1: Does that sounds like a good place to start. That

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Speaker 1: sounds like a good place to start. I just want

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Speaker 1: to give a big caveat I don't actually care for

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, and I hope that the thing about this

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Speaker 1: one than people didn't care for that opinion. You know

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Speaker 1: what has my opinion. I don't have to like everybody.

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Speaker 1: I don't care tylor Swift Bridges Bridget is coming out

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Speaker 1: as anti Taylor Swift anti I will go that far.

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Speaker 1: I don't care for her. Okay, Yeah, that's an important distinction. Okay,

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Speaker 1: At Lisa, where do you stand on the Taylor Swift

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Speaker 1: love a meter? Yeah? I mean I think that no

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Speaker 1: one represents the resentment America has towards white women better

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Speaker 1: than Taylor Swift, and I think that pushes me more

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Speaker 1: towards a love and a hate. I think she's got

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Speaker 1: a great opportunity to do something with the platform and

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Speaker 1: power and privilege that she has, but she kind of hasn't.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, I'm very lukewarm. I saw squarely. I

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Speaker 1: think in between both of you, Okay, well, this is good.

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Speaker 1: They should make for a good conversation. Then I'm like

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Speaker 1: sweating already, but this is good, So let me start here.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to position myself as the defender

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Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift. I'm just here to say you are

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Speaker 1: now I'm really sweating, um. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: what I have recognized and putting this episode together is

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Speaker 1: that it is very easy to want to look away

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Speaker 1: when someone you are a fan of is doing some questionable,

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Speaker 1: shady right, Like it is easy to catch yourself ignoring

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Speaker 1: the bad because you want to vehemently and only support

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Speaker 1: the good. And we're going to talk about today how

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Speaker 1: we can hold those two truths at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and why it's okay to have problematic faiths just like

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Speaker 1: Judge Judy, but why it's also really really important that

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Speaker 1: we hold our celebrity idols accountable. So first and foremost

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Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur, I find her drive and her vision

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Speaker 1: and the fact that she made this lifelong ambition of

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Speaker 1: hers a reality and was very much central as a

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Speaker 1: young girl really to positioning herself for the pop sensation.

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Speaker 1: She's become like. She was very much in the driver's

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Speaker 1: seat of her own career from a young age, and that,

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Speaker 1: to go way back to Taylor's origins, that is one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really wins my respect in her case.

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Speaker 1: I can definitely respect the idea that she was this

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Speaker 1: young girl with a dream and she made that dream

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Speaker 1: of reality. That's something that Taylors all those time, got

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Speaker 1: to give it up for that. I definitely applaud her

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Speaker 1: for making that happen, and that's not something that's easy.

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Speaker 1: Something that I've actually always liked about Taylor is that

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Speaker 1: she's has a lot of control over her art and

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Speaker 1: over her career. And so, you know, you see a

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Speaker 1: lot of things in the media about young pop stars

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Speaker 1: who kind of somebody else is driving all the shots

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Speaker 1: and making all the calls, and their label is being

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Speaker 1: awful and they just put up with it. Taylor is

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Speaker 1: not someone who does that right. At eleven years old,

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Speaker 1: she convinced her mom to take her on a trip

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Speaker 1: to Nashville where she could go door to door on

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Speaker 1: Nashville record labels, giving them a homemade CD demo no

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Speaker 1: bites right, So she got no traction from that, and

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Speaker 1: at eleven years old, that's cute, like, oh, a little

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Speaker 1: girl with the dream. But the rejection that she experienced

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Speaker 1: could have been a career ender from most eleven year old,

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Speaker 1: but not for Taylor. She at that point learned to

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Speaker 1: play guitar, started writing her own songs I'm sure, bankrolled

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Speaker 1: by her very well off parents, with a lot of

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Speaker 1: assistants from professionals. But at fourteen years old, when our

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Speaker 1: ci A, one of the largest record labels in Nashville,

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Speaker 1: gave her a development deal which was kind of like

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Speaker 1: an investment for a year. I wasn't a full record deal,

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Speaker 1: but it was like, let's fund your learning and growth

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Speaker 1: and progress and see what happens. But at the end

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Speaker 1: of the year they took a pass on her. We're

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Speaker 1: not going to fund a record deal. Wanted to keep

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Speaker 1: her on the label, but shelf her and she walked

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Speaker 1: away from our ci a and at that same time

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Speaker 1: convinced her entire family to relocate to Nashville for her

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Speaker 1: career at fourteen years old. I mean that you've got

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Speaker 1: to give it up for her that I applaud her.

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Speaker 1: I applaud her. I will give a caveat that Luckily

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Speaker 1: she had the kind of family where relocating to a

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Speaker 1: different city to support the artistic dream of your young

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Speaker 1: daughter was it reality. Because I've heard many, many, many

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Speaker 1: stories of like, oh, I've got my mixtape, my demo,

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Speaker 1: I've been telling showing it to everybody, but that that

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Speaker 1: same person doesn't have the means to do that, the

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Speaker 1: story could go very differently. So I applaud that very

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Speaker 1: very much. But I think it's very lucky that she

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Speaker 1: had that kind of family support where that was possible totally.

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Speaker 1: And to on that note to Bridget, I think you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of her brand has been built on

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Speaker 1: being an outsider, but really she grew up on a

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Speaker 1: Christmas tree farm. Um. She has this very ideal childhood,

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Speaker 1: and not that we should be holding that against her,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly helps to find and follow your dreams

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Speaker 1: when you come from wealth and privilege. Both of her parents, Um,

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Speaker 1: were executives UM at banks, and she herself actually wanted

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Speaker 1: to go into the banking industry before she found UM,

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Speaker 1: before she found country music, before she found country music

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Speaker 1: specifically UM. I think that she was most inspired by

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Speaker 1: a crossover artist on the nineties like Faith Hill, she

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Speaker 1: and I Twain and the Dixie Chicks. And then she

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Speaker 1: changed her tune no pun intended, and UM wanted to

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Speaker 1: go in a different direction, which again I applaud her hustle,

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Speaker 1: just like you said, totally applaud her hustle. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's in bridget copy paste. Yeah, but it's a lot

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Speaker 1: easier to do, and your parents have a ton of money, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And she had parents who were willing to listen to her.

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Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Yes, she comes from a bunch

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Speaker 1: of privilege, financial privilege, the privilege of having two parents

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Speaker 1: who were willing to support your insane dream at eleven

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Speaker 1: years old or fourteen years old, and beyond that, parents

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Speaker 1: who were willing to invest hard earned money, time, energy,

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Speaker 1: and effort in your pipe dream. Really and yet, at

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Speaker 1: the same time, being wealthy does not make you talented.

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Speaker 1: Being wealthy and privileged does not make you ambitious, and

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Speaker 1: it sure as hell doesn't make it a guaranteed that

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Speaker 1: at a showcase, she had a Nashville at four teen

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Speaker 1: years old, Scott Borshetta who had just left another huge

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Speaker 1: record label, I believe Universal. He approached her and said, so,

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Speaker 1: the good news is, I want to sign you for

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Speaker 1: a record deal. The bad news is I don't have

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Speaker 1: a record label. You would be the first person. So

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Speaker 1: she took a chance on him, and three years later

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Speaker 1: her record sales topped seven million. Seven million three years later,

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Speaker 1: that's hugely impressive. And just to go back for a second,

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Speaker 1: I think the point that I'm making is that both

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Speaker 1: things can be true. It can be true that she's

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Speaker 1: ambitious and talented but also had a lot of help

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Speaker 1: and was very lucky and had supportive, privileged parents, and

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Speaker 1: that was also a very influential for her success. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm not saying that, oh, the only reason why

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Speaker 1: she did that is because she's rich and her parents

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Speaker 1: are supportive and blah blah blah. Obviously not because you

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Speaker 1: have to have talent, right, So at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, she does have talent. I think that's clear.

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Speaker 1: So I just think it's possible that both things exactly

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Speaker 1: exactly and that's part of what's challenging about being a

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Speaker 1: fan of hers and hearing the critics. It's like, yes,

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Speaker 1: those things are both true. Can we acknowledge that they're

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Speaker 1: both present? The other thing that's undeniable is that her

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Speaker 1: songs are hella catchy in fact. Okay, putting reputation aside

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Speaker 1: for a second, because we all have very strong opinions

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Speaker 1: on reputation. Her latest album, which we're gonna talk about further,

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Speaker 1: but there was an SNL skit that I think put

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Speaker 1: it perfectly that was called Swift Mean, and it was

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Speaker 1: a commercial kind of like for dramamine for sudden onset

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Speaker 1: of vertigo induced by the fact that you're jamming out

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Speaker 1: to a song at the club and then you realize

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Speaker 1: it's by Taylor Swift and you're like, what, I'm a

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Speaker 1: grown ass woman and I love Taylor Swift. Girl can

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Speaker 1: write a song and it's so perfect because it's hilariously

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Speaker 1: fraught in that you love the music and then when

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Speaker 1: you realize it's by who Taylor Swift? That album, that

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Speaker 1: last album really reached across the age spectrum and I

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Speaker 1: think got a lot of people on board with Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift music. What do you think a Lisa, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think she's really good at what she does. She's a

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Speaker 1: great artist, and no one can deny that. I think

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Speaker 1: that we all want to make sure that our politics

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Speaker 1: match our popular culture. So I think in terms of

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Speaker 1: popular culture, she's awesome had it. She knows the game.

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Speaker 1: She plays it really well when it comes to making

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Speaker 1: a product that people can't get out of their heads, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's what her role as a pop star is.

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Speaker 1: So totally a plus in that category for sure. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not the biggest fan of her music, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I love pop music. I love pop songs. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things I love the most about pop music

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Speaker 1: is that it doesn't even matter if it's a genre

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Speaker 1: that you like or an artist that you like. You

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Speaker 1: when you hear a perfect pop song, you know what's

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Speaker 1: a perfect pop song, right, So like when you hear

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Speaker 1: Katy Perry's Teenage Dream, like, you know, whether you like

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Speaker 1: Katy Perry or not, whether you like that kind of

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Speaker 1: music or not, you know it's a perfect pop song.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, kind of like what at LSA

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Speaker 1: was just saying, she's so good at creating these perfect

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Speaker 1: pop songs as a as a product, and that even

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Speaker 1: if you don't like Taylor Swift, you don't like her music,

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Speaker 1: you listen to something like shake It Off, and you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a perfect pop song, right like it just it

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Speaker 1: doesn't like like it's undeniable. So I will say, I mean,

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Speaker 1: even though I'm not her biggest fan musically, I can

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Speaker 1: recognize that she really knows that she's doing when it

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Speaker 1: comes to crafting a marketable, perfect well crafted pop song.

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Speaker 1: And really what's interesting is that she came up in

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Speaker 1: country right. She came up in the country world and

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Speaker 1: in many ways broadened the genres reached by writing teenage

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Speaker 1: love songs really about high school era heartbreak that popularized

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Speaker 1: country music amongst suburban teenage girls for the first time,

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Speaker 1: really expanding the demographic that the industry was able to reach.

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Speaker 1: That was extraordinary at first. Then she transitioned into pop

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Speaker 1: made her into a different kind of artist. She sort

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Speaker 1: of redefined herself in the public eye, which is not

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Speaker 1: an easy thing to do. And beyond that, her tour,

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Speaker 1: I think her tour on record was some of the

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Speaker 1: most interesting artistic choices that I've ever seen an artist make. Notably,

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Speaker 1: she featured other really incredible artists and sort of introduced

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Speaker 1: her fandom to other artists across genres, people like Pitbull

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Speaker 1: and Charlie XCS, Alison Kraus, the Band, Perry Whiz Khalifa,

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Speaker 1: John Legend, Mary J. Blige. She was in so many

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Speaker 1: rays generous with how she proceeded in nine nine. Whether

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Speaker 1: you see it as being crafted in a strategic sort

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Speaker 1: of marketing standpoint or as an altruistic move, I think

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Speaker 1: it can be both at the same time as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I would almost push back on some of

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Speaker 1: those because I feel like, if you have an icon

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Speaker 1: like Mary J. Blage on your album, you're not doing

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Speaker 1: her the favor. She's doing favor right there. People like Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Taylor wasn't like, oh I'll give you, I'll do

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Speaker 1: little favor for you Mary, Like that's true. She was

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Speaker 1: a peak popularity from tour. Also on the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: nine tour. I think it's important to call out that

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Speaker 1: she made I think Apple um. She did a takeover

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Speaker 1: of the Apple stores, so everything featured her branding right Like.

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Speaker 1: From a business perspective, she's been really good at marrying

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Speaker 1: capitalism with artistic expression. Down to her issue with Spotify,

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Speaker 1: which is that they want they needed to pay artists more.

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Speaker 1: She's taken up these causes that do allow her to

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Speaker 1: express herself in the way she wants to express herself,

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Speaker 1: make the product she wants to make while also making bank,

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Speaker 1: and that's hard to do. People have been trying to

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Speaker 1: do that since the dawn of time. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like in a way, you know, she has mastered that

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Speaker 1: with n specifically, but throughout her career as an artist totally.

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Speaker 1: And then the last big notable mentioned I have to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge in terms of her artistry before we take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, is her use of social media, especially on

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Speaker 1: the platform Tumbler, was really kind of extraordinary, and how

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Speaker 1: she interfaced with her fans from a young age, from

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Speaker 1: the beginning of her career. Yeah, I'm actually consistently impressed

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Speaker 1: with her use of social media even now. Even now,

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Speaker 1: you can find her leaving cute comments on fans posts

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Speaker 1: about her. People will post like, oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: love Taylor Swift and she'll comment, oh my god, Hi,

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Speaker 1: it's Taylor. And you know, I actually genuinely believe that

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Speaker 1: that's not an assistant or a social media manager. I

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Speaker 1: believe that is one percent Taylor and so I'm someone

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Speaker 1: who loves like memes and the Internet, she's shown herself

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Speaker 1: to be someone who's very red in on those things.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever seen that iconic Tumbler post where it's

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Speaker 1: a picture of Taylor Swift and the comment says, this

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Speaker 1: is my friend Becky who died after using marijuana, and

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Speaker 1: someone comments, no, that's Taylor Swift, and then the other

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Speaker 1: comments says, no, it's Becky. There's a picture of Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift wearing her shirt that says no, it's Becky. So

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Speaker 1: I like the idea that Taylor Swift knows what the

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Speaker 1: chatter is about her on places like Tumbler and Instagram

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Speaker 1: and plays into it in a way that I think

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Speaker 1: it's really clever and funny and dare I say cool.

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Speaker 1: I never thought I would hear myself saying that I

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Speaker 1: think Taylor Swift is cool. But that is cool being

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Speaker 1: in on what the Internet is saying and knowing how

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Speaker 1: to wink wink not not at it. That is a

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Speaker 1: cool thing totally. I mean, I think what she gives

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Speaker 1: to teenage girls and young women in particular is validation

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Speaker 1: that they're not crazy, that they're not insane, that they

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Speaker 1: can have feelings and feel certain ways and participate in

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Speaker 1: social media or on social platforms with each other, talking

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Speaker 1: to each other in a language of popular culture that

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Speaker 1: they we all understand and we all speak. She gets

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Speaker 1: that and she talks back about language, and I think

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Speaker 1: that that's really valuable. Oh, I love how you put

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Speaker 1: that that she she speaks in that language. Where As

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Speaker 1: someone who grew up on and on the internet late

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Speaker 1: at night, on MySpace and message boards and all that,

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Speaker 1: having someone as a famous as Taylor Swift speaking in

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Speaker 1: that language is powerful, particularly when you're a young girl,

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Speaker 1: when you're when you feel like all the things that

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Speaker 1: you're doing online are like geeky or nerdy or stupid

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Speaker 1: or weird or whatever. Having someone as famous and beautiful

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Speaker 1: and influentialist Taylor Swift say that's okay, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to speak back at you with that language is so powerful.

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Speaker 1: She brings her fans into the process in a way

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Speaker 1: that I thought was really interesting, especially she turned some

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Speaker 1: of her online conversations into in person invitations for listening parties.

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Speaker 1: Of course, she used that to sort of build buzz,

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Speaker 1: make her Swift ease feel very special, and in so

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Speaker 1: many ways it married true online to offline organizing to

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Speaker 1: you did not go there. I just did go there too.

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Speaker 1: It marries that with marketing. She I mean, she totally

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Speaker 1: commercialized her fandom, but she did it in a way

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Speaker 1: that is textbook organizing. I like it where you she

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Speaker 1: it is sort of like she made these little organize,

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Speaker 1: these little Taylor Swift organizers. Yeah. I haven't thought of

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Speaker 1: it that way, but that is something. There's something to that,

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Speaker 1: and I don't see anyone else doing that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she in many ways, like has pioneered that fan interaction

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Speaker 1: in a way that whether you believe it's genuine or not,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, does not matter because she made her

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Speaker 1: fans feel like it was genuine. She certainly makes it

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Speaker 1: seem like she's being genuine about it and she's making

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Speaker 1: bank at the same time. Like you were saying, Alisa,

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Speaker 1: it can be both. Question who do you think has

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Speaker 1: more of rabid fans, Taylor Swift or the bay Hive Beyonce? Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I might say Beyonce too, because

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Speaker 1: Taylor fans are they're really really right or dive for Taylor,

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Speaker 1: but the bay Hive like will take people down like

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Speaker 1: they're there they are no joke. I just feel like

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Speaker 1: you can be Taylor Swift, and even Taylor Swift bows

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Speaker 1: down to the Queen Bear, you know what I mean

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Speaker 1: that I feel like there's just no comparison also from

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Speaker 1: the artist. I mean, can we just say that it's

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Speaker 1: amazing to have two artists like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's

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Speaker 1: Lemonade coming up in the same We're like in a

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Speaker 1: very special time. Yeah. I think we're in a special

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Speaker 1: time for women in pop music because I think so

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Speaker 1: long we've been told that when a woman is a

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Speaker 1: pop artist that she's just frivolous, it's about her boyfriend's

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Speaker 1: bah blah blah. But I'm happy to be in a

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Speaker 1: time where we are understanding and appreciating that as art.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to make it seem like I

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Speaker 1: don't think that about Taylor Swift. I think that nine

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Speaker 1: eight nine was a piece of art, and I think

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Speaker 1: people recognize that as that, and I think that's the

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Speaker 1: way it should be. Do you think Taylor had to

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Speaker 1: galvanize her fans and organize them through specific tactics, whether

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Speaker 1: real or a marketing campaign. Do you think that she

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Speaker 1: had to organize those young women into segments of her

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Speaker 1: fans or like fandoms because she's a female artist, and

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Speaker 1: all that female fan labor usually goes towards younger male artists,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that we haven't maybe seen so much

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Speaker 1: of or have a model or business model for young

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Speaker 1: female fans supporting a young female artist. I actually think

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Speaker 1: there's something to that idea, because when you think about

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Speaker 1: organized fandom right where it's fan clubs and people writing

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Speaker 1: letters and sending emails and getting meetups and all of

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Speaker 1: that things that involve a lot of labor and in

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Speaker 1: real life work, you really do see a lot of

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Speaker 1: that for boy bands and artists who are young men,

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Speaker 1: and so I actually do think it's interesting that Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift hasn't been able to generate that same level of

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Speaker 1: in real life connection and engagement with young bands being

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Speaker 1: a young woman, because you really don't see that often.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I see it broken down in

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Speaker 1: gender as much as I see it as in terms

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Speaker 1: of the shifting nature of media. Because of social media,

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Speaker 1: the ability to be more in control of your fandom

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Speaker 1: has never been greater. But now there are things like

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Speaker 1: record labels and book publishers who are trying to redefine

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Speaker 1: the value that they bring to an artist like Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 1: The label wasn't going to organize her fans for her.

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Speaker 1: She being the kind of control freak that I think

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Speaker 1: she might be over her image, over her brand, over

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Speaker 1: her creative control, took the reins on that department just

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Speaker 1: as much as she did artistically. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that was a really wise decision on her part that

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Speaker 1: she didn't have to make, you know what I mean Again,

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Speaker 1: I think it's an example of her business savvy. I

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Speaker 1: totally agree on that, And I also think that it

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Speaker 1: takes for thought and a respect for young women and

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Speaker 1: the power that comes with female fandom to be able

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Speaker 1: to say, let me, let me get a hold on this,

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Speaker 1: let me modify it. Um. Not that obviously male artist

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Speaker 1: young male artists haven't done the same thing. From the Beatles,

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Speaker 1: you know, all the way to Justin Bieber, like, young

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Speaker 1: women are always ahead of the curve. They're always predicting trends. Um.

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Speaker 1: Look it's not chat for example, Um all that stuff

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Speaker 1: young girls predict. And I think that she harnesses that

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Speaker 1: power again, that understanding of young women, and just turned

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Speaker 1: it in her favor. Again not saying that that's a

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Speaker 1: good or bad thing. Actually think it's a great thing

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Speaker 1: because she respects that female labor and it's like, I

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Speaker 1: see you, and I'm going to make something for you.

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Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely right. In fact, it kind of

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Speaker 1: sounds like you're talking about the concept of a squad,

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Speaker 1: which I want to dive into. After we take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, we'll be right back after a word from

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Speaker 1: our sponsors. So we're back, and we are talking through

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Speaker 1: one of many people's most problematic fabis faive and that

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Speaker 1: is Taylor Swift. Why we love her, why she's a

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Speaker 1: little problematic, and hope she can be better, And we

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Speaker 1: want to tackle this idea of squad power. And I

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Speaker 1: was actually really excited to see Taylor go from writing

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Speaker 1: about boys primarily to defining herself by her girlfriends. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was pretty exciting to see the era of strong,

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Speaker 1: powerful women being championed. And yet there are some totally

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Speaker 1: legitimate critics about her use of squad at Lisa, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about Taylor and the era of squad.

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Speaker 1: I think the era of the squad illustrated that Taylor

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Speaker 1: could really make a career out of both putting women

430
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: down and supporting them. So she started her career, you know,

431
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: really again in the country music department again, even though

432
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: she came from Pennsylvania. Um was really able to ride

433
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: that wave of country music. But a lot of the

434
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: songs during that time we're kind of putting women down. Um.

435
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys sample songs that she

436
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: really went from a country music star from our song,

437
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: which was a popular favorite if you listen to it,

438
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: it's going to be stuff in your heads for three

439
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: days to pop star which was shake it Off, which

440
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: we all know and I'm sad to admit with my

441
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: ring tone for like three months. Um. And she really

442
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: did go from putting women down from Better Than Revenge,

443
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: where she compares um, a woman who's an actress to

444
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: her skills on a mattress. You can hear that that rhyme.

445
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: That's probably intentional. And so she goes from putting women

446
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: down to embracing them in the squad. So it's just

447
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to watch this commodification of feminism happen

448
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: through the squad, Like you can't just put women down

449
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: and build your career up on that while also surrounding

450
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: yourselves with a bunch of women who you hope to

451
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: exemplify parts of your identity on like, look here's Tam

452
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: and look, I'm kind of indie, you know, here's Lena Dunham.

453
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: So I also have that kind of like writerly side

454
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: of me. I guess you can do it because she did.

455
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: But I think the backlash to the squad illustrated that

456
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 1: it's problematic. The squad in itself is a problematic phase

457
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: and to quote bridget Todd, how many people are in

458
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: this squad? Yeah? I wasn't a big fan of the squad,

459
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: as I think you know, Alisa, I just think that

460
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: squad to me seems like it's an automatically exclusive thing, right,

461
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: So if you've got a squad, my immediate first thought

462
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: is who's included and who's excluded? What are the ins

463
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: and outs of the squad. I also didn't love that

464
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: people gave her all this credit for coming up with

465
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: the idea of squad, when in fact, the term squad

466
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: has had roots and black and hip hop communities since forever,

467
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: Like tell us it to not invent the idea of

468
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: squads and squatting up those haven't been in hip hop

469
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: songs for a very long time, and that I didn't

470
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: love seeing how when she started saying squad and squadgles,

471
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: it became a thing, and it just seemed like another

472
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: way that she was able to put her sort of

473
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: shiny white girl branding on something that already existed. Yeah,

474
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: and she never gave any credit for not inventing it.

475
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: She did popularize it, but she's not. It's not like

476
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: she said, f y, I historically this is uh, you know,

477
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: long been of thing in black culture and hip hop,

478
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: and I'm squatting up now and that's exciting you should do.

479
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: There was no acknowledgment of that. I definitely think more culturally,

480
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: we associated the idea of squads with Taylor. Whether or

481
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: not that was something that is on us or on her,

482
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: I think it's a good question, but it was just

483
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: something that I couldn't shake it off feeling a little

484
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 1: bit icky about. I think you're totally spot on. It

485
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: also felt triggering for a lot of women who were

486
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: bullied by women because the click culture, Like if she

487
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: called it click, which who did that Kanye seting with

488
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: my click? Right? Yeah, that's Kanyie and jay Z. It

489
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: really reminded you of that sort of attie this girl

490
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: culture of high school or middle school, where a pack

491
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: of roaming best girlfriends could be vicious. Yeah, a pack

492
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: of roaming, blue eyed, leggy, beautiful, popular, powerful girls. Honestly,

493
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like the only reason I don't like

494
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is because she reminds me of every popular

495
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: girl from my high school who I was legitimately afraid of.

496
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: Right And at the same time, she's playing the outsider

497
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: dork card like I'm just I don't belong just like you,

498
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: and we're like, Okay, shut up, You're perfect, you know,

499
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: like just own it, you know what I mean. That's

500
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: the frustration I honestly, going back to that, I remember

501
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: finding out that Taylor Swift drove like a luxury convertible

502
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: when she was in high school, and that was the

503
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: first time I realized, Oh, this persona that she had

504
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: built early on in her career, where you know, she's

505
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: got the curly, frizzy hair and the glasses and I

506
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: am so nerdy. It's like, you're if you're driving a

507
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: car like that in high school, come on, like, we

508
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: all know, we all know what those social markers mean

509
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: and what they don't mean. And I just saw her

510
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: adopting social markers that were had nothing to do with

511
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: her actual lived experience. And I remember the first time

512
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: that those two things came in conflict. Something about finding

513
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: out that she drove a luxury convertible car in high

514
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: school just blew my mind and blew the whole thing

515
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: wide open. But she probably went to a school where

516
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: everybody did, and so she could somehow still be an

517
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: outsider dork. I mean, I'm not saying she was or wasn't,

518
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: but in my high school, that would not have made

519
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: you an outsider dork. Now there's one other thing we

520
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: have to talk about Taylor related that I actually thought

521
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: was a pretty awesome thing that she did, and that

522
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: was her outspoken, courageous advocacy on sexual assaults and really

523
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: standing up for victims of sexual assault, not only through

524
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: pursuing her own case, which was really a counter suit,

525
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: but let's let's talk about that more in a second,

526
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: but also her support of Kesha, who we know has

527
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: also been really abused by her own record label and

528
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: her own producer who she's accused of assault. Now, Taylor

529
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,959
Speaker 1: Swift did not need to go through the costly time

530
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: I'm consuming and probably very triggering process of taking this

531
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: jerk to court, and she didn't even go out of

532
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: her way to sue this guy. She actually countersued. So,

533
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: this guy, David Mueller, is like a DJ in Denver

534
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: who during a fan meet and greet she says, assaulted her. Right.

535
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: She says that he stuck his hand up her skirt

536
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: and grabbed her ass during a fan meet and greet.

537
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: She didn't sue him, but he sued her because he

538
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: ended up getting fired because she made sure that his

539
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: boss knew what had gone down. He got fired, and

540
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: he was suing Taylor Swift and her manager and parent

541
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: for back pay that he lost due to losing his job.

542
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: And to me, I would be like, oh, hell no,

543
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: I'm taking this what a Exactly he said that she

544
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: falsely accused him of assault, which is like, how much

545
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: hutzpah does it have to take to actually assault someone

546
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: and then sue them for accusing you of assault and

547
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: having lost your job. That's like just the about the

548
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: audacity of doing that to someone like Taylor Swift. So

549
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: he was suing for two point nine eight million in damages.

550
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: She countersued for one dollar and one this past August.

551
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: So I actually have nothing but respect for Taylor in

552
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: this regard. I have nothing kudos to her. I can

553
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: only imagine how many young women out there who have

554
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: dealt with sexual assault, who have been told it's their fault.

555
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: What were you wearing? All of that nonsense that we

556
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: tell survivors of sexual assault and sex crimes. Taylor would

557
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: have none of it. And I can't imagine what it

558
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: must feel like to be a young survivor of sexual

559
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: assault and watch this. I applaud her for this. This

560
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: is this is what I'm talking about. I think that

561
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: when Taylor Swift uses her platform to take a stand,

562
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: it can reverberate through the nation, through the world. And

563
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: I think somebody out there is going to have watched

564
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: that trial and watched how she didn't back down, didn't

565
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: allow herself to be shamed, didn't allow herself to be

566
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: victim blamed, and said no, something illegal happened to me.

567
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: And I am going to have my this. Somebody out

568
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: there is watching that, and they're gonna go report, or

569
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: they're gonna go get their justice. They're gonna hold somebody accountable.

570
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: And I think this is what I'm talking about. She

571
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: has this platform where she can really do so much

572
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: good when it goes right. I think with Taylor Swift

573
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: it goes really, really really right. At leasta, what do

574
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: you think? I thought it was really well timed because

575
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: it happened, I believe in August or September, late August

576
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: early September going back to school, and that's the month

577
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: where obviously students are going back to school, and on

578
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: campus rape and sexual assault is usually the highest. So

579
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: I thought it came out a nice time for her

580
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: to have that message of saying, look, it's totally inappropriate

581
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: to be touched in this way. I think post Weinstein,

582
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: now it's a really interesting it's really interesting to look

583
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: back at Taylor's case post Weinstein and see how she

584
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: in a way helps set the stage for women to

585
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: start calling this gross behavior within their industry out on

586
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: a national stage. So I applaud that. Do I think

587
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: she was using it a little bit to set the

588
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: ground or set the stage for her new album. Yeah,

589
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't put it past her as a celebrity

590
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: to want to stay relevant at any cost. Yeah. I

591
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: think you're spot on, And this is like Bridget you

592
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: were saying earlier, an example of how powerful Taylor can

593
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: be when she wants to be an advocate. In a

594
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: statement following the trial, Swift actually acknowledge the symbolism behind

595
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: her win, and in doing so, for the first time

596
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: that I've read, really called out her own privilege in

597
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: a way that really made me excited and think, Okay, Taylor,

598
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: You're on the right track, Like maybe we can see

599
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: more of this in the future. From her, she wrote,

600
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge the privilege that I benefit from

601
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: in life, in society, and in my ability to shoulder

602
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: the enormous cost of defending myself in a trial like this.

603
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: She continued, My hope is to help those whose voices

604
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: should also be heard. Therefore, I'll be making donations in

605
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: the near future to multiple organizations that help sexual assault

606
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: victims defend themselves. This is the kind of thing that's

607
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: going to get me. At a Taylor Swift concert, row

608
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: Rocket a red lip singing along like I love it.

609
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: Like if I could use this as a case study

610
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: for how to be an advocate, how to how to

611
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: show others how to be advocates, I would. And I

612
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: just think that what she did was so brave and

613
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: so great and so right, and it just really goes

614
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: to show the immensive power that someone like Taylor Swift

615
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: has and his whole lawsuit. And this great statement came

616
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: almost a year after she donated two fifty dollars to Kesha,

617
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: two days after a New York judge denied Kesha a

618
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: court injunction that would have allowed her to record new

619
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: music outside of her record label. So the courts don't

620
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: always rule in women's favor on this issue, even if

621
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: you're a famous pop star. And whether she's winning and

622
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: making a really profound statement like that or watching a

623
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: colleague lose and throwing some money her way as a

624
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: token of sup or an appreciation, this issue is an

625
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: example of Taylor walk in the feminist walk, and we

626
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: really need to see her do that in a more

627
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: intersectional way. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm sure that

628
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: publicly supporting Kesha over Dr Luke probably does have negative

629
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: connotations for Taylor, even somebody as powerful as she is

630
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: in the industry, And I think that the fact that

631
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: she did it anyway shows sometimes being a feminist is hard,

632
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: but you do it anyway. And I just I think

633
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: that what she did is exactly what we're talking about.

634
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: When it comes to walking the walk. When we come

635
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: back from this next break, we're going to talk through

636
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: some of tho ways she's not always walking the walk,

637
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: some of the ways she can walk that walk a

638
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: lot better, especially when it comes to race and intersectional feminism,

639
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: and how we hope that we can expect more of

640
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: this kind of privilege, acknowledgment, and real feminism on display

641
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: from the one and only Taylor Swift. We'll be right back,

642
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: and we're back, and it's time. It's time to talk

643
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: through some of the biggest issues that folks rightfully have

644
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: with Taylor Swift. And let's start with this concept of

645
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: her use of the white victim. She sort of plays

646
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: this white victim card, which to me, I think the

647
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: narrative began around the Kanye v. M A situation when

648
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: she received the award over and above Queen b who

649
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: we've already described and sort of as the queen of pop.

650
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: So Taylor gets on stage to accept her award, Kanye

651
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: West sort of jumps right up there, takes the mic

652
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: silence as her makes her look like the white victim.

653
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: And I think she's been playing that angle ever since.

654
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: What do you think? Yeah, I think I agree with

655
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: the idea of the white victim. I think that was

656
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: one of the first examples where she exposed herself as

657
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: one the most dangerous types of white women. There's a

658
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: great quote by a cultural critic, Damon Young, and he

659
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: said that this is a Taylor's um next altercation with Kanye,

660
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: regarding the recordings that he made, um saying that he

661
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: made that famous meaning Taylor. And what Damon says is

662
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: what Taylor did was use the inherent empathy and benefit

663
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: of the doubt. Her white womanhood allowed her to possess

664
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: to throw a black person under the bus if necessary

665
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: and convenient. And I feel like this this first instance

666
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: with Kanye on the v m A stage was the

667
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: first look that we got of how she uses her

668
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: victimhood as a way to get things from popular culture,

669
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: and that kind of like helped her brand move forward.

670
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: She's a victim, she's the outsider, and you can't really

671
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: exploit the same system you claim to be a victim of.

672
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: And that's kind of my issue with this first altercation

673
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: in with Kanye. Yeah, I mean, I I honestly could

674
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: not agree more. And I think what you said about

675
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: the idea of the benefit of the doubt. That's what

676
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: I think for me. Is one of the things I

677
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: find so frustrating about Taylor Swift is that, first of all,

678
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of one of those don't hate the player,

679
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: hate the game situations where I think Taylor Swift sees

680
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: the world that we live in. She sees that Kanye West,

681
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: as a black man up against her as a white woman,

682
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 1: that he is going to automatically have people no matter

683
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: what he does. So I think that what he did

684
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: that dam As was awful, but that people are going

685
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: to automatically be skeptical of him. And so when you

686
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: look at what happened between, you know, her being like, oh,

687
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: he had this line in a song and never talk

688
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: to me about it, and him being like, I got

689
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: permission from her to use this line automatically. I think

690
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: that she knows, well, people are gonna believe me over

691
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: him because I'm a white woman, and I think that

692
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: she plays into that in a way that I find

693
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: very very uncomfortable, playing up her own victimhood over and

694
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: over again. I think it's something that she's really benefited from.

695
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: But I mean that Kanye West to VM a speech

696
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: that happened so long ago and she's still like years

697
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: and years and years later. She referenced it in her

698
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: her next her next time at the Vienna's she gave

699
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: that speech, so it was partly about it. Like, I

700
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: get it that it was a traumatic, big thing that

701
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: happened to her, but I don't like the idea of

702
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: building a brand on this one thing. And once again

703
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: SNL sort of mirrored this when they satirized her being

704
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: constantly in a state of shock and awe and oh

705
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: my goodness, I won again. She sort of plays this

706
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: geeky outsider like you've mentioned earlier, Alisa, but she's anything

707
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: but right. She sort of plays the underdog because everybody

708
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: loves an underdog, even though we know she's not. And

709
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: I'll admit Kanye did victimize her when he interrupted her.

710
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: That was rude, right, I think Obama. President Obama called

711
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: him a jackass when describing Kanye's behavior. But you're right,

712
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: She's constantly played into that because it's worked for her.

713
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: And what was the most troubling instance in which she

714
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: played that card, in my opinion, is this Twitter fight

715
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: with Nicki Minaj. So Nikki, the nominations come out again

716
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: for the Best Music Video of v M a years later,

717
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: and Nikki says, you know, she wasn't nominated. Only women

718
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: with thin bodies get nominated for these kinds of awards. Now,

719
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: if you look at the lineup of all the other nominees,

720
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: it was Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and a couple of guys,

721
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: like a bunch of guys. And so Taylor interpreted that

722
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: as a slight against her because everything is about her. Well, actually,

723
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: if you think of the I think it was a

724
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: rational conclusion. But she missed the point. She thought she

725
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: was being called out because she mentioned slim white women's bodies.

726
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: The only slim white woman in that category was her, Taylor.

727
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: She didn't actually say white, she didn't know, but she

728
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: did say, so it's I think that's a fair and

729
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: I think that's a fair reading between the lines. But

730
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: here's my thing, Yeah, Nicki Mina about her. Jaki Manaj

731
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: wasn't calling out Taylor Swift. Nicki Minaj was calling out

732
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: white supremacy, and Taylor Swift in her mind thinks this

733
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: is about me and it's not about her, And I

734
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: think that's what for me, that's what it comes down to.

735
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: Not everything is about you winning and women's supporting women

736
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 1: and all that. Nicki Minaj had a right to rightfully

737
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: call out the ways that white supremacy play out in

738
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: our entertainment industry. If you have eyes, you see it.

739
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: It's not it's not a surprise, not a secret. The

740
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift cannot see that for what it is,

741
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: I think is a real problem and really highlights the

742
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift is not maybe read in on

743
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: these issues. Now. Of course, I mean, it would be

744
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: great if Taylor Swift was just like a woke fighter

745
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 1: for social change, so like, you know, it'll be great,

746
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: but no, one, she doesn't have to be like she's

747
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,479
Speaker 1: doing her thing fine, But to try to wade into

748
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: it when a black woman is talking about a white

749
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 1: supremacy plays out on her industry and making it about her,

750
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: that is textbook like victimized the white woman well and

751
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: beyond that, she used feminism as a weapon in her response.

752
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: She said, it's unlike you, Nicki to tear other women down.

753
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: So she tried to play this holier than thou I'm

754
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: a better feminist than you are card when it was

755
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: clearly not about her. But she totally missed the mark

756
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: on it, and in critiquing Nikki getting in a fight

757
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: with Nikki, I think a lot of observers were like,

758
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: oh my god, some of my favorite badass women artists

759
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: are fighting. God, please get it over it. And to

760
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: be fair, not to defend that move, because that was

761
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: so ignorant of Taylor, but she did come around saying

762
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: and I quote, I thought I was being called out,

763
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 1: I missed the point, I misunderstood, then misspoke. I am sorry, Nikki,

764
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: and like nobody's perfect, nobody's born woke, right. I think

765
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: that was a tough moment, but I'm I'm relatively pleased

766
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,959
Speaker 1: with how she came around. What do you think? Yeah,

767
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: I agree, And you've mentioned this one, but that instance

768
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: of Taylor being the victim of Nikki's what she interpreted

769
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: as shade is so similar to the examples of black

770
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: women speaking out and white women being offended because they're

771
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,479
Speaker 1: saying an opinion that has very little to do with them.

772
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: It's about some larger issue, but white women being offended

773
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: by it and not as something that has followed feminism

774
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: and the historical struggle for representation and rights and access

775
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: and just like trying to be a person in the world,

776
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: that is something that has like followed that struggle to

777
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: just be a human, and Taylor just didn't get it.

778
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 1: She didn't see it, and it was just such an

779
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: odd copy paste of history where it was just repeating

780
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: itself in social media. Now, Taylor comes from privilege, which

781
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: we have unpacked already. So you know, is it shocking

782
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: and surprising that a white, skinny, blonde woman who comes

783
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: from a very very wealthy family isn't read up on

784
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: women in gender and race studies? One oh one. No,

785
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: she didn't go to college. This is not like the

786
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: person who are we are going to learn a out

787
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 1: social movements from. However, one would think that that access

788
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: the privilege would also buy you. I don't know some

789
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: cultural understanding of like how things work amongst women, And

790
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 1: I don't think that feminism is useful if it's only

791
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: for white, privileged, blonde, skinny women, Like it's not just

792
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: about being nice to people all the time, it's calling

793
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: stuff like this out. And I think that that was

794
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity for Taylor to be an ally to

795
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: Nikki and not just feel like you're hurting me. That's

796
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 1: mean girl. Then you could not I mean, I could

797
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: not have put it better myself. I do. I think

798
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: as one as a black woman who hosts a podcasts

799
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: about feminism that has a lot of white women listeners,

800
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: I totally see this play out all the time, every day,

801
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: all day, every day, where if you call something out,

802
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: or you you talk about a frustration that you have,

803
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: oftentimes it can feel like white women don't want to

804
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: hear it, or it's like it hurts their feelings or

805
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: defend them, and it feels that you can't actually speak

806
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: your truth because you don't want to a fend Taylor

807
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: Swift or whatever. And again, I mean, when I saw

808
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: that interaction happened on Twitter, I thought Taylor Swift might

809
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: genuinely think that feminism is being nice to Taylor Swift,

810
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: and if something includes being mean to Taylor Swift, it's

811
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: not feminist. And I that that interaction made me think

812
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: that feminism is just supporting and uplifting Taylor Swift and

813
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: if feminism doesn't look like that, then it's not feminism.

814
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: And I think that's what she was accusing Nikki. Oh yeah,

815
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: And I think Nikki put it perfectly by saying, this

816
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: is something you should speak out about. She responded to

817
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: Taylor saying like, I wasn't talking about you. I don't

818
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: know where you got that from, but this is a

819
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: problem that's bigger than you, and it's something you should

820
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: speak out about. Did she know she apologized, she came around.

821
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: She's had her own awokening, it seems a few days

822
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: later on Twitter. But has she taken up that mantle now?

823
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: Has she fought for diversity in music now? Has she

824
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: made race a part of her things that she fights for? No,

825
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 1: she hasn't. And I would like to see that change totally.

826
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really important part of this

827
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: conversation because I don't think feminism is that big as

828
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: a movement at this point where we can be revoking

829
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: people's feminist cards. We can't exactly start turning people away.

830
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: So like, we're very happy to have Taylor Swift in

831
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: in our ranks and in our army. However, like calling

832
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: each other out is part of what being a feminist is.

833
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: And so if she's going to get on her stage

834
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: and on her platform and call herself a feminist and

835
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: use it as a marketing tool, she's relying on our

836
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: social movement that women have fought for representation and access

837
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: to write, money, personhood. If you're going to use that

838
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: to sell stuff back to people, you better be aware

839
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: of the foundation on which you're building your house, because

840
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: you're building it on the backs of men and women

841
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: who have fought hard for that stuff. And you better

842
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: understand the language that you're speaking in, just like she

843
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: understood the language she speaks to young girls and when

844
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: she started her career. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what

845
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: I think that my biggest issue is with her. Nobody

846
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: is forcing her to use feminism as this marketing tool.

847
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: No one is saying you have to be a feminist,

848
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: you have to talk about feminism and squad and this

849
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: and that. She's made a choice that that is something

850
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: that she's going to be about. You can't just take

851
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: that up. It's not just a costume. If you're gonna

852
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: talk the talking about a walk the walk. Sometimes being

853
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: a feminist isn't fun. Now. Sometimes being a feminist means

854
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: being called a feminist kill joy or a social justice

855
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: warrior or taking up causes. It's not very fun or lukeuid.

856
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: It's take up. Sometimes it's hard work, sometimes it's hell.

857
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: But you know you're calling yourself a feminist you better

858
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: be ready to walk that walk, and I don't think

859
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: you're doing that. And if you really think about her

860
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: embrace the feminism is relatively new. Back in twelve, she

861
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: said she wasn't a feminist because quote, I don't really

862
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: think about things as guys versus girls. Luckily, it seems

863
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: that squad member Lena Dunham took her under her wing

864
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: and UH had a little chat with her. Hopefully Nikki

865
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,919
Speaker 1: took her under her wing and said, let's talk about

866
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: intersectional feminism. A few years her, but she evolved, like

867
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: so many women do, to realize that, as she put it, quote,

868
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that saying you're a feminist is

869
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: just saying that you hope women and men will have

870
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: equal rights and equal opportunities. So she come around and

871
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: come out as a feminist. Yes, but you know, as

872
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: Jill Philipovic wrote for The Washington Post, feminism is more

873
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: than just supporting your girl friends and churning out charming

874
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: catchphrases about girl power. I actually liked seeing the evolution

875
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: of her going from I'm not a feminist to embracing it.

876
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: I actually like seeing how that can happen in real

877
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: time and following celebrities as they grapple with these issues,

878
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: because you know, my me, coming to commons with the

879
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: feminist was a journey. I'm sure it was a journey

880
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: for all of us. And I actually applaud her for not, like,

881
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, dying on the hill of anti feminism, for saying, actually,

882
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: it turns out that feminism is a cool thing, and

883
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: I am a feminist after all, and sewing that like

884
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: you can make that transition, and really, you know what's

885
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: not very feminist of her, Bridget was this past elections

886
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: call when we were kind of counting on feminists, We

887
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: were kind of counting on white women in particular to

888
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: uh come out and vote, and to come out and

889
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: vote for the candidate who was going to make life

890
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: a little easier on all women, the candidate who did

891
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: not brag about sexually assaulting women. Yeah, that one one

892
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 1: where the hell was Taylor Swift? And sixteen? If I

893
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: told you the amount of time I have spent thinking, writing, researching,

894
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: and talking about who Taylor Swift voted for, it would

895
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: blow your mind. You would be like, there's like strings

896
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: and paper on my apartment wall where I've got charts,

897
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like crossing this to this on this day.

898
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: She said this, like, I'm down a rabbit hole of

899
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: trying to figure this out. And here's the thing. When

900
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: all these other members of her squad, Lina Dunham, Oh,

901
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: Katie Perry is not exactly a member of her squad,

902
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: she was stumping like crazy for Hillary. Yeah, when you

903
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: have all these other prominent young women not just saying

904
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: go out and vote, but being an advocate for voting

905
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: for somebody that you really really believe in, I was like,

906
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: where was Taylor. It would have taken something subtle, right, Like,

907
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: I know that she has this country fan base. Maybe

908
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to alienate them. I totally totally get it.

909
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that you have to that. I

910
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: expect the people to go out and be Rara, you know,

911
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: stumping for Hillary Clinton or whatever. But I do think

912
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

913
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I'm met down with people

914
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: who rag about sexual assault. You know who did that,

915
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. I was running for president Donald Trump. Yeah.

916
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: It was just noticeably mute, right. It was a noticeable

917
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: anomaly in terms of her brand of being ra Ra feminism,

918
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: ra Ra squad, but not at all touching politics. And

919
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: it seems like it's one thing to abstain from going political,

920
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: even in our climate where all celebrity work is basically

921
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: becoming political, and it feels like our idols and politics

922
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: have merged in a way recently that's very new. But

923
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: it's another thing to be the poster child of the

924
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: Aryan supporters, like the Arian raised, like the neo Nazi movement,

925
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: and to say nothing, Well, that might sound like a

926
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: huge exaggeration, but if you google Taylor Swift and Nazis,

927
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: that's actually exactly what's going on. So if you don't know,

928
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: this kind of a weird thing on the Internet is

929
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift has for whatever reason been embraced as

930
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: this Aryan goddess by literal Nazis and white supremacists. And

931
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: this is something that is taken over the Internet. There

932
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: are so much subculture is dedicated to it. And actually

933
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: The Daily Bees published an article earlier this year with

934
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: the headline it's time for Taylor Swift to denounce her

935
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: neo Nazi admirers. So, according to Andre Anglin, who is

936
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: the writer of the white supremacist blog The Daily Stormer,

937
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: he says first, Taylor Swift is a pure Aryan goddess,

938
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 1: like something out of a classical Greek poem Athena Reborn.

939
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: That's the most important thing. It is also an established

940
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift is secretly a Nazi, and its

941
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: simply waiting for the right time. When Donald Trump makes

942
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: it safe for her to come out and announce her

943
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: area in agenda to the world, probably she will be

944
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: be truth to Trump's son and they will be ground

945
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: American royalty. So if this is out on a leading

946
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: white nationalist website and you're and you don't say anything,

947
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: I think it's a problem. Maybe she's thinking, I don't

948
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: even want to give attention to it, but it's out there. Yeah.

949
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there's gotta be a lot of crazy stuff that'

950
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: said about you when you're that famous, and picking and

951
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: choosing what to respond to is not easy. But given

952
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: the climate, given what's happening, given the violence, giving Charlottesville,

953
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: given this election, to stay mute, I mean, how do

954
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: you do that when you're as influential as she is.

955
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: Choosing to sit out an election like two sixteen is

956
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: one thing, but choosing to sit out an opportunity to

957
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: proclaim your values and take action on your values. I

958
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: mean it's like she's taking polls, you know what I mean.

959
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: She seems like the most hyper calculated candidate out there,

960
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: like she will pull before she decides what to speak

961
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: out against. Definitely, And I don't think that speaking out

962
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: against Nazis should be a controversial thing, and yet I

963
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: think it might be. Right now. I think most of

964
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: what's problematic about Taylor all boils down to racial issues,

965
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: really and truly, if you look at the cultural appropriation

966
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 1: conversation around her use of these sort of nameplate earrings

967
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: and twerking in Shake It Off the music video, some

968
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: people said, well, it's not the same as really co

969
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: opting black culture because she was sort of parrotying it.

970
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: Not sure if that argument really stands, but I kind

971
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 1: of get it right. She wasn't trying to say, look

972
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: at me, I'm I'm I'm Miley Cyrus. I'm actually using

973
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: black culture to be cool. She was saying, like, look

974
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: at me trying on all these different genres. Haha, aren't

975
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: I a dork? You know, different but still not cool?

976
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: A little cringe e. It's cringe E. And I think

977
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: for me, why it's cringe. E is that it really

978
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: highlights something that I race not withstand. They have a

979
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: problem with her is that she often makes a show

980
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: of how like adorably bad she is at things like, Oh,

981
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm in front of all these black professional dancers who

982
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: are doing a great job of dancing, and I don't

983
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing. Isn't that funny? And it's like,

984
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: maybe it is a racialized thing because I don't think

985
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: that people of color get the same leeway to bask

986
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: in their own expressions of mediocrity, and Taylor Swift does

987
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: that sometimes and it drives me nuts. Yes, yes, basking

988
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: in their expressions of mediocrity. I love that because her

989
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: whole thing is you know, adorable, right, Yeah, yeah, I

990
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: totally get it. The most problematic, the most problematic expression

991
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: of cultural appropriation one on one is Google Wildest Dreams.

992
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: That video I think went nowhere in part because people

993
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: were so horrified that, oh my gosh, is she romanticizing

994
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: African colonialism? Yes, folks, Yes, indeed she's on the African

995
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: planes okay, sort of allah colonial occupation days. And it

996
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: looks like a magical love story and it's just like,

997
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: are you kidding me. I mean I almost this was

998
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: so bad. I almost felt bad for her because I'm thinking,

999
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: where where was that? Like someone in her team left up?

1000
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: But this got out there right like this was a

1001
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: breach of some sort of system. She should have someone

1002
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: in her team who's like pulled her aside, and it's like, girl,

1003
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: is some mistake. I almost at like something there was

1004
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: no quality control, there was a failure of something in

1005
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: her team, and I feel bad that she got got

1006
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: duped by it or something. It's not good. And then

1007
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: even the most recent video are You Ready For It um,

1008
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: which we've sort of abstained from talking about our feelings

1009
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: about her latest musical release, mainly because we don't have

1010
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: very nice things to say, and I'm ready for the

1011
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,959
Speaker 1: whole album. I'm like looking forward to maybe maybe it'll

1012
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,479
Speaker 1: get better. But music aside, the video Are You Ready

1013
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: For It has graffiti, layden, urban sort of scenes that

1014
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: are very little Tokyo esque. There's actual characters on the walls,

1015
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: and it just feels a little bit like she's maybe

1016
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: headed in a Miley Cyrus Bangers direction because she's basically

1017
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: rapping in a video Taylor Stuft wrapping I don't wanna.

1018
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: It's not good. It's not good. It's just like, why

1019
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: do you have to do the race thing? Why do

1020
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: you have to cross those lines to be cool? You

1021
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: don't have to white women alert, You do not need

1022
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: to pretend to be black in order to come across

1023
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: as cool. Yeah, and she's so as we said earlier,

1024
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: she's so talented in other ways, Like she didn't need

1025
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: to pretend to work or pretend to wrap to make

1026
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: a good song. In fact, I would say doing that

1027
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: as a gimmicky and in your song won't be good.

1028
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: I think that she should focus on her real talent

1029
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: and not trying to be something she's not for a

1030
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: weird gimmick or joke, maybe as retaliation. Maybe sometimes playing

1031
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: to your critics instead of playing to your fans will

1032
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: take you in a bad direction. Just a thought, just

1033
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: an artistic musing. But here's the thing. Is she on

1034
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: the same level as Miley Cyrus in terms of white

1035
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: girl fail? Oh no? In my book, No, yeah, I

1036
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: haven't adopted a culture and then denounced that same culture.

1037
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: You know, And honestly, I can forgive a few slip

1038
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: ups here and there. If you're someone who is she

1039
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: genuinely seems like you're interested in being thoughtful and curious

1040
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: and willing to learn and learn and grow. And so

1041
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: I think I see that in Taylor Swift in a

1042
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: way that maybe I don't see in Miley Cyrus. I

1043
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: agree completely, and so I want to wrap this up

1044
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: by saying, this is a tough episode to pass through.

1045
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: This is a tough conversation. We're so glad to have you,

1046
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: Alisa joining us for this one, because it's not easy

1047
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: to really break down an artist like Taylor Swift, who

1048
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: is so impressive, so influential, so talented and fraught. And

1049
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: it is okay, listeners, just as a reminder, is actually

1050
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: okay to have problematic faiths. It is okay to love

1051
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: their work and hold them to a high moral standard.

1052
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: And like you said, bridget to see and hope that

1053
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: they learn and grow so we can all learn and

1054
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 1: grow together. Yeah. I don't want to make it sound

1055
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: like I hate Taylor Swift. I'm just not her biggest fan.

1056
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: And I think the reason why I'm not her biggest

1057
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: fan is because I see her using feminism in ways

1058
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: that honestly remind me of myself many many years ago.

1059
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: And I want her to be better. I wanted to

1060
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: be a role model for all the other young women

1061
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: out there, like myself who were still finding their feminist footing,

1062
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: and I want her to model how we can all

1063
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: be more inclusive feminist. And I think she has this

1064
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: amazing platform. She's this amazing talented person who has harnessed

1065
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: the energy of young women and validated them in ways

1066
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: that frankly, they don't really get validated a lot. And

1067
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: I think that she could just tweak some things and

1068
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: refine that and really get there. And that's what I

1069
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: want to see for her. Yeah, I mean, I just

1070
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: want to reiterate that I think being a fan of

1071
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift and being a critic of Tiller Swift it's

1072
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: part and parcel of the same fandom. So if I

1073
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: came off maybe as a little bit critical of Taylor,

1074
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: really it comes from a place that I want to

1075
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: see her embrace and use the platform in the stage

1076
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: that she has created for herself for a broader and

1077
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: a more intersectional purpose. I think that everyone would benefit um.

1078
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,439
Speaker 1: But I also think that we're at this cultural moment

1079
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: where we just can't trust white of them, can't trust

1080
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: white women to come out and vote for and support

1081
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: other women. We can't trust white women on juries, and

1082
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: we can't trust white women to lead a lot of companies.

1083
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: Um and that's because white women have repeatedly ignored conversations

1084
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: of race and class and gender and sexuality, all the

1085
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,479
Speaker 1: stuff that you guys so awesomely talk about and dig

1086
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: into on the podcast. And we're at this historical moment

1087
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: where those conversations feel most vital and most important to

1088
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: our national conversation. And I think Taylor is at a

1089
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: great moment in her career and in her platform to

1090
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: help us have those really hard conversations. And by the way,

1091
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: that's the role of a pop star. A pop star

1092
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: or a celebrity really helps us negotiate our identity in

1093
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: troubled times. If you look back at all the celebrities

1094
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: who have been able to withstand cultural changes, the ones

1095
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: who are able to join that conversation are the ones

1096
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: that stay relevant. So I hope that Taylor Swift can

1097
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: be able to help us. And we're the ones who

1098
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: put the pop in popular culture. We're the ones who

1099
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: make popular culture. We as fans look to celebrities like

1100
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: Taylor to make sense of the world. Ourselves and our identities,

1101
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: and I just want to see Taylor help us reconcile

1102
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: those contradictions of our culture and this weird, bizarre time

1103
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: that we live in, because that's how she stays relevant,

1104
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: and I want to see her stay relevant. Elsa. It

1105
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: is such a pleasure to have you on today. Thank

1106
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: you so much for helping us wade through the waters

1107
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift, our problematic Save Alisa. Where can folks

1108
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: find out more about what you're up to? Yeah, so

1109
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram at pop culture Pirates. On Twitter, I'm

1110
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: at pop Cult Pirates because pop Culture Pirate was too long,

1111
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: and you can hit me up on Facebook at Elisa

1112
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: Chrissinger my full name. Um And if you are interested

1113
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: in hearing Bridget and I deep dive more on this

1114
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: topic Taylor Swift and Problematic Shave, you can listen to

1115
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: strong Opinions Loosely Held, where we also go into a

1116
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,479
Speaker 1: bunch of pop your topics from a feminist perspective, um

1117
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: like hy HGTV explains America and a bunch of other

1118
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: fun pop culture conversations. So I hope to see some

1119
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: many of you guys over there. Absolutely so we want

1120
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: to hear from you, Sminty listeners, What are your feelings

1121
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: on Taylor Swift? Do you find some of what she

1122
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: says problematic? Do you hope for a more woke Taylor Swift? Perhaps?

1123
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: Do we hope for Taylor Swift that comes around, finds

1124
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: her feminist footing and especially is better when it comes

1125
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: to race and intersectional feminism. We want to hear from you,

1126
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: and I hope we're not alone in this because this

1127
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: is a tough one and it's here for you. So

1128
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: I finally stopped dragging my feet and we went and

1129
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: did it. So send us a tweet at mom Stuff podcast,

1130
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You,

1131
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: or send us an email if you've got to unpack

1132
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: even a lengthier thought at mom Stuff at how stuff

1133
00:59:52,760 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: works dot com. Tho