1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Brading. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: Paul mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: want you to know. We're pretty excited about today's episode, folks, 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: because we're diving into something that is near and dear 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: to our hearts and hopefully to yours, especially nowadays with 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: the with the U. S. Government admitting that there are 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: unknown things somewhere out there in the sky. That's right, 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about UFOs, but we are not examining this alone. 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: We're talking about a very specific story of UFO encounters, 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: and we're doing it with the help of the one 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: and only Toby Ball, investigative journalist, podcaster, the creator of 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals Season two is out now as 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: you listen to today's show. Toby, thanks so much for 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: joining us. Well, thanks for having me back. That's right, 21 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: you're returning guests. I think Saturday Night Live rules say 22 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: once you hit number five, we have to give you 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: a jacket. You're on a short list, my friend, we 24 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: don't have that many returning guests. I don't know if 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: it's because they don't want to come back or what not. 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm kidding, but no, it's very very excited to have 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: you back. And uh, such a cool way of extending 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: what you did in the first season of Strange Arrivals 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: with this, you know, very familiar story, but I think 30 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: one that's not familiar in terms of like how it 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: sits in the overall lore of UFO sightings. Well, yeah, 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: let's let's get into that, Toby. The the Rendelshore Forest 33 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: incident is known by a lot of people as kind 34 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: of the Roswell Incident of the UK. So why don't 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: why don't you just tell us what it is, like overall, 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: what happened, what's supposedly happened, and then we'll get into 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: what you found throughout your season. Yeah, it's the Roswell 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: of the UK. It's an encounter that takes place over 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: three nights. There's actually the first and the third night 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: are sort of major nights. The second night there's there's 41 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: a little something that happens, but essentially the first night 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: is Christmas night on and I should take a step back. 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: This all takes place in Rendelshom Forest, which is a 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: force that's in between two Royal Air Force Bass bent 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: Waters and Woodbridge, and there while they're both sort of 46 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: technically under the control of the British Air Force, in 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: act their US Air Force Bass and bent Waters actually 48 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 1: has nuclear weapons. So this is night. It's the height 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: of the Cold War, so you know, it's Christmas night. 50 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: It's not a whole lot going on. There's sort of 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: a routine patrol around the perimeter, and one of the 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: two people in the jeep, uh, this guy Bud Stephens, 53 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: sees a light in the sky that descends into the 54 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: forest just a matter of maybe a quarter mile from 55 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: where they're driving. And yes, the guy who's with him, 56 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: whose name is John Burrows, he says, you know, have 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: you ever seen anything like that? Burrows says, I haven't, 58 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: And they see a light coming from the forest. They're 59 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: not they're not sure what to do because the forest 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: is actually off base, so they don't have clearance to 61 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: go out there, they call into headquarters. Headquarters sends uh 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: this guy Jim Peniston who's slightly higher ranking, and aup 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: of other people to meet them at this gate. So 64 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: they get there and they talk it over and they 65 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: think that maybe it's a plane crash. That that seems 66 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: to be the best explanation they can come up with 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: with that limited data, and they start. What they need 68 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: to do is to go off base, go into the 69 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: woods to see, you know, if their survivors see what 70 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: the situation is. Uh. So they leave their weapons with 71 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: Stephens and three and three of them take off in 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: a jeep, drive the jeep as far as they can 73 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: into the forest and then proceed on foot. They have 74 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: trouble with their radios. They leave one guy, this guy 75 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: Ed Caban sag sort of as a relay in between 76 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: the jeep and where they're going. They see this light 77 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: coming at them through the forest, and then so Burrows 78 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: and Peniston approached the light. Apparently the light gets brighter. 79 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: They dive behind like this this berm, like this raised 80 00:04:54,320 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: area of ground, and then the stories sort of diverge lightly. 81 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: And I'll give you the sort of less involved version, 82 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: which is and this is Burrows version is that they 83 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: get up and they see the light is receding through 84 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: the trees, and they follow it, and they don't actually 85 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: see a craft, but they keep following this light and 86 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: they go out into a field which is near like 87 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: this very very small village, and the light continues to 88 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: go away. They try and follow it, they don't catch it. 89 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: They eventually turn around, um and if they're coming back, 90 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: they see another set of lights in the forest, and 91 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: this is sort of a blue and white set of lights. 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: And at that point they return to base and and 93 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: and report in. So that that's the first night. And 94 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: I assume we will wait and I'll tell the longer 95 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: penestation setting. I already have so many questions, and I'm 96 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: sure that the audience does as well. So. Uh. One 97 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: of the things our fellow conspiracy realists are always interested 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: in when we when we hear specific details or timelines 99 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: of high profile UFO u a P sightings is the 100 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: point where the stories diverge. In your previous work on 101 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: season one of Stranger Rivals with the Betty and Barney hillcase, 102 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: you had really dug in and found those those intersection points, 103 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: right of differences in reports, differences in opinion or speculation. 104 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: But one thing that's different about this is that, as 105 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: as you had mentioned to us earlier, we're chatting off 106 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: air this this event occurred in the eighties, so there 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: are people alive and lucid who who have personal experience, 108 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: firsthand experience with this. When you were talking with people 109 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: and found these divergent points in the story, Toby, uh, 110 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: did people seem to agree to disagree? Was there anyone 111 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: saying like, no insert person here has their facts wrong, 112 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: or were they just saying, well that's how I remember it. Yeah, 113 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: this is an interesting question. The three people I interviewed, 114 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: who are really the three main voices on rendallshem of 115 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: the people who actually had encounters, So that's that's Chuck Halt. 116 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: Who have we haven't talked about yet, John Burrows and 117 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: Jim Peniston. I mean, they're all they've they've all work 118 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: together on things and work separately on things. And as 119 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: time has gone on, you know, certainly in Peniston's situation 120 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: and Halts to to somewhat lesser extent, Burrows not so much, 121 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: like their stories have changed slightly. And I think there 122 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: is and I talked about this a little bit in 123 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: the podcast and I don't think it's like in a 124 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: malicious way, but there is there's a sense of who 125 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: owns the story, right, like who owns your experience? So 126 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: when I buck to them, there was a little bit 127 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: of that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh, 128 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. That guy kind of panicked and is well, 129 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure to talk about in a little bit. You know, 130 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: this guy was stuck in suspended animation and didn't experience 131 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: this thing. So I'm the only person who actually knows 132 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: what happened, you know. So, and it was with different 133 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: levels I mean there, I think there is some I 134 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: mean their books involved, So there are two of the 135 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: people were kind of sort of either I wouldn't say 136 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: accused each other of lying, but of of not having 137 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: the facts trade and sort of promoting a narrative that 138 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: wasn't born out by what actually happened. Yeah, so this 139 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: is something you get into later in the in the season. 140 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much, but a major 141 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: theme I think of the show, uh competing narratives and 142 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: motivation for having a separate narrative. UH. A lot of 143 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: the diverging information seems to come when television producers or 144 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of times television producers or somebody 145 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: else comes through and is interviewing one of these individuals 146 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: for a high profile show, and then it seems as 147 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: though maybe the stories really begin to diverge that way. 148 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: We've talked on this show before. How you know, a 149 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: producer a lot of times has a a need to 150 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: have the most compelling story possible, and the lines between 151 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, what is nonfiction and fiction blur a little 152 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: bit in their needs, so like and and it also 153 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: it also goes into some of the government's motivations for 154 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: some of the things that happened later in the season. So, uh, 155 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: in your mind, do you think these guys when you're 156 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: talking to them, do you get a sense that they 157 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: believe like their own story so much so that it's 158 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: truth to them, or that did you get a sense 159 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: that maybe there's something else going on there? So when 160 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: I talked to John Rows, I I feel like his 161 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: story has been fairly consistent. He kind of talks about 162 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: what he knows and what he doesn't know. You know, 163 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: he has some thoughts about what it actually was, which 164 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how accurate that is. And 165 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: Chuck halt I feel like he feels very strongly. And 166 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: what's kind of interesting about his story is that he 167 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: kind of sticks to the story. But like these things 168 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: that get mentioned kind of in passing at the time 169 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: take on new life. You know, it becomes a little 170 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: more dramatic than it was when he first talked about it. 171 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: It you know, late nineteen early nine. One Peniston has 172 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: a whole new narrative line that that pops up well 173 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: after the fact, and so I can't judge on how 174 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: cincerious or anything like that, but it is something that 175 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: that really kind of pops up out of nowhere. And 176 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: again it actually the critical moment, as you were talking 177 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: about it, comes when they're taping I think it's Ancient 178 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: Aliens maybe, but one of those shows, and it's on camera, 179 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: Like there's a clip of it that you can find, 180 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if you can find on the internet, 181 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: but somebody shared it with me to show me, like 182 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: what happened, um, And it's he finds this binary code 183 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: in this in this notebook while they're while they're filming, 184 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: and that's kind of the key moment to this next 185 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: like longer, completely strange narrative that he tells and This 186 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: is really important because this is something that we discussed 187 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: in season one in our interview, which is there's this 188 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: the lemma between perceived sincerity and uh, just the treacherous 189 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: nature of memory. Right, and in your in your work 190 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: as an investigative crime reporter, I'm sure you've seen eye 191 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: witnesses get things wrong, but not because they're trying to 192 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: be misleading. It's simply because every time you remember something, 193 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: you remembering the last time you remembered it. So with this, 194 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to ask originally about how people 195 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: treated these different divergent narratives or opinions is because that 196 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: is one of the things that you know, like the 197 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: hardcore skeptics really hinge on when they talk about any 198 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: kind of inexplicable encounter. But I don't. I don't want 199 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: to disrupt our timeline too much because I know, I 200 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: know a lot of us are listening at home or 201 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: possibly in a spacecraft and wondering, well, hey, what happened 202 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: on day two? So Day two is actually not a 203 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: ton happens there. There's a brief encounter where a car 204 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: is on patrol. It's not even clear if there are 205 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: one or two people in the car um and a 206 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: light actually goes inside the car, and you know, so 207 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: traumatizes the woman officer who's in the car, whose name 208 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm I'm forgetting at the moment that you know, she's 209 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: taken off duty and is actually I think leaves leaves 210 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: Bentwaters goes to another base. I tried to track her 211 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: down without success. Um. I heard from somebody else that 212 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: she kind of is laying low and not talking about this. 213 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: But that was really the only thing that happened. Like, 214 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: I don't even know if that would be much of 215 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: a story if it wasn't bridging nights one and night three. 216 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: But night three is is the next night when there's 217 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: like a big encounter that's that's seen by a whole 218 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: bunch of people. So you mentioned this other person, Halt, 219 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: Now can you describe who that person is and what 220 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: they did to add to what we know about this incident? Okay, 221 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: So Chuck Halled was a deputy base commander, so he 222 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: was fairly high up in the in the hierarchy on base. 223 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: So there was a party which would be the night 224 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: of the teven and the bass brass are there, and 225 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, an airmand comes in and says the you know, 226 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: the lights are back, and so there's some conversation and 227 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, people for the most part don't want to 228 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: deal with it, like I don't think it was taken 229 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: so seriously, so as it's been put to me. Chuck 230 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: Holt got the short straw, so he has to like 231 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: pull together a group of people to go out into 232 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: the forest to see what's going on. So he gets 233 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: a group, including this guy, Morgan Neville's who apparently is 234 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: sort of a uh, photography enthusiasts, and so he gets 235 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: brought along thinking that maybe he takes some pictures. They 236 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: get night vision goggles, uh, and there's some question about 237 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: whether they had been trained on them and knew exactly 238 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: what they did a Geiger counter, and they tromp off 239 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: into the woods to try and figure out what's going on. 240 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: At the same time, John Burrows has been hanging out 241 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: with some of his buddies on base and they decided 242 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: to go out and check it out for themselves too. 243 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: So you've got these two groups who kind of they 244 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: eventually meet in the forest Halt. You know, he goes 245 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: to where his understanding of the original landing spot was. 246 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: They see this light through the trees, he takes some 247 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: Geiger counter readings. My understanding is that even though it 248 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: wasn't you know, at zero or whatever, that it was 249 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: basically normal background radiation. They use the night vision goggles, 250 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: which increases light twenty thousand times or something. So he 251 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: through the night vision goggles in addition to be like 252 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: nearly blinded by how bright things are, he thinks he 253 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: sees a little bit more detail. It looks like an 254 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: eye looking at him. But the light keeps coming in, disappearing, coming, disappearing, 255 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: And they do the same thing, right, They kind of 256 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: try to follow the light. They go out into the 257 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: into the field, the light sort of receding from them, 258 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: and then they see what what they think are a 259 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: whole bunch of lights in the sky, probably above Bentwaters 260 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: Air Base. And they watch it for quite a long time, 261 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: are reporting back, aren't getting much back from headquarters, wondering 262 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: if there's radar on any of these things, not get 263 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: anything back on that, uh, And eventually they're just cold 264 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: and tired and they leave, and you have an actual 265 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: recording of that occurrence, right right, right, So Hal when 266 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: that was I did mention this. But when Halt goes out, 267 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: he brings a tape recorder, like a nineteen eighties tape recorder, 268 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: and uh, and so he's taping what he considers to 269 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: be important moments because he's only got so much tape, 270 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: right and batteries, so he's turning it on and off 271 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: and on and off and on and off. So but 272 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: you do here, I mean, it's this real time record 273 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: of these moments while they're watching it, and you can tell, 274 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they're not doesn't sound like they're faking it. 275 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: They honestly don't know what's what's going on. Uh, And 276 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: they're kind of freaked out about it, but not not scared. 277 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Hall is just you know, he's kind of 278 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: laughing in amazement at what's what's going on around him. Um. 279 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: So you know, they come back and they report in 280 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: and eventually the Air Force, the people who are in charge, 281 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: the the Americans. I don't really know what to make 282 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: of it. In all honesty. One of the things that's 283 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: interesting about the official responses it seems like they're never 284 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: really all that concerned. But because you have American service 285 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: people marching around off base in the middle of the night, 286 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: there needs to be some kind of explanation. And so 287 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: the base commander has Halt right a memo that he's 288 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: going to give to the Royal Air Force guy who's 289 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: like sort of technically in charge of the base, sort 290 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: of explaining what was happening. Right, And so this is, 291 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: you know, this is the morning, early morning of so 292 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: we're still in the holidays, so this base commander is 293 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: actually off, I believe in Wales, like visiting family for 294 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: the holidays. So Halt writes this memo is just one page. 295 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: I think there's four points that he makes, and he's 296 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: sort of detailing both of what happened on the first 297 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: night as far as he's heard, and then what he 298 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: actually witnessed. So he writes it, but then he waits 299 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: until this guy comes back from vacation like days and 300 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: days and days, like more than a week, and then 301 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: he gives it to him. And so that's another thing 302 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: that will come up later. It's like, well, you know, 303 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,239 Speaker 1: if you thought, you know, aliens or whatever we're you know, 304 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: penetrating this nuclear air base, why didn't you like call 305 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: the guy and like tell him right away that this 306 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: is going on. Why did you wait like a week 307 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: and a half to give him this information? Like it 308 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like you were taking it too seriously. Yeah, 309 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: that's the That's the thing like reading that memo, which 310 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: is publicly available now, uh, I think since nine under 311 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: an f o I A. Reading this memo was really 312 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: fascinating because the title makes you wonder just how many 313 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: memos these guys get. The idol is literally unexplained lights 314 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, two weeks later or whatever. And with this 315 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: what's fascinating is when you know, when we hear fo 316 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: I request, the assumption for a lot of people is 317 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: that it means whatever document was given was top secret departmentalized. 318 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: But from my understanding, the memo itself was not actually classified, 319 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: and the response did seem somewhat lackluster, especially considering the 320 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: concerns you would have about any kind of security around 321 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: a nuclear base. In your opinion, When Holt, as he said, 322 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: pulls the short straw and goes out and he has 323 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: this equipment and he notices that there's something to miss um, 324 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: did he initially come to a conclusion that there was 325 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: something extraterrestrial occurring? Because I believe that he has gone 326 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: on record afterwards saying that he personally believes he saw 327 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: something extra terrestrial. Do you think that was one of 328 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: his initial conclusions or something he arrived at over time, 329 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: because again the memo is just like their lights and 330 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: we don't know why or right, Yeah, that's a good question. 331 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if I have a definitive answer on that. 332 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think looking back at it, Halt sort 333 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: of implies that he did at the time, but I 334 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: don't know if that if that's actually the case. And again, 335 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: I think there's this strange lack of urgency that you 336 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: think if he was committed at that time to its 337 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: extraterrestrials hovering above our nuclear weapons, that he would push 338 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: a little bit harder to get that to the people 339 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: who needed to see it, and that just didn't happen. 340 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: And again that that gap in time is something that 341 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, skeptics point to, and that the military at 342 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: the time, like the the you know, the government of 343 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: Great Britain or you know, Kingdom, that was one of 344 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: the things they said. It's like we didn't take it 345 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: seriously because they didn't take it seriously, like the people 346 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: who did the report didn't think it was serious enough 347 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: to bother somebody during vacation, like they wait until they 348 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: came back, so you know. I mean, I've run across 349 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: things in my job that I don't think are that important, 350 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: but I would call my boss sure how and it 351 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: doesn't have to do with aliens and nuclear weapons. Well, 352 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for example, we we we always talked, 353 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: we always talk about these disembodied lights. That's being kind 354 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: of like a hallmark of classic UFO sightings, and the 355 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: Phoenix lights, I think is one of the more recent 356 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: ones that we've talked about on the show. I actually 357 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: just realized that's pretty funny. Kurt Russell, the actor, was 358 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: the civilian pilot who actually spotted the Phoenix lights and 359 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: reported them. Um, I don't I don't know if we 360 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: talked about that in the episode, but I was looking 361 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: it up and they came up. He just kind of 362 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: casually mentioned in a BBC interview, but he was flying 363 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: his son to visit his son's girlfriend or something and 364 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: he saw this like V shaped array of lights and 365 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: he called it in. So I mean, you know, like 366 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: it seems like something would definitely escalate, especially if you 367 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: were in charge of overseeing, um, things of that nature, 368 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: like nuclear weapons or nuclear facilities. But I'm wondering, you know, Ben, 369 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: you made a really good point early on in this 370 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: interview about how this was in the eighties, So there 371 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: was a lot more stuff out there in terms of 372 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: reports of these kinds of sightings in terms of pop culture, 373 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: like the Close Encounters of the third kind came out 374 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven. I'm just wondering if, like you 375 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: think any of that stuff fed into or detracted maybe 376 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: from the stories or from these folks willingness to to 377 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: report them. Maybe they thought because there was all this 378 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: stuff out there, they would be seen as quacks or 379 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: something if they, like you know, reported anything of that nature. 380 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I know that Penistin in particular, 381 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: but all three of them kind of mentioned that, like 382 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: reporting that you saw UFOs was not really a path 383 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: to success in the air force. You know. I think 384 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: there's that angle to it. But I also think there's 385 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: the angle that it's it's it's out there, like you 386 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: see strange lights. One of the possibilities is, you know, 387 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: alien visitation, and would that have happened in like vent 388 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: two before Close Encounters and and uh, you know, before 389 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: some of this other stuff was in the air. I 390 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: don't know. And then when you see when when when 391 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: you uh find out what the skeptics the kind of 392 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: the explanation for it is. Would would you be more 393 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: open to that explanation even at the time if you 394 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: didn't have in the back of your mind, oh man, 395 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: this is this maybe you know, extraterrestrial craft that we're encountering. 396 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: This is context that you can kind of exist within. 397 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: Where it was before that it wasn't there and it 398 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: was just kind of like w TF. But now it's like, Okay, 399 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: there's a calculus that goes into this decision at this 400 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: point where I'm based on what we know, what's been reported, 401 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: what's out there, what you know in pop culture and 402 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: cinema and TV and stuff. It's like, how does this 403 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: make me look? You know, because there really is like 404 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: a much more concrete understanding, uh and a vied right 405 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: between the skeptics and the believers at this point in time. Well, yeah, 406 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: and I think when you when you add the fact 407 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: that it's you know, it's in the military, um, and 408 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: the military has gone through, you know, the Air Force 409 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: in particular has gone through. This whole process was Project 410 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: Blue Book that ended, you know, about ten years before, 411 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: and it's sort of officially we're not dealing with UFOs anymore. 412 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: If you see anything, you report it to your local authorities, 413 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: don't report it to us. And then when you have 414 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: people who are part of the Air Force said, no, 415 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: we're tramping around in the woods and we saw this 416 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: light and you know, we think it's extra terrestrials. You know, 417 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of a head scratcher. It's you know, 418 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: it's like, why, why is this happening? Why are you 419 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: telling me this? What do you want me to do 420 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: about it? Because we officially, like, you've got to take 421 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: it up with a different authority. Side note, Toby, thank 422 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: you for putting officially in there, right, some things would 423 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: later come to light. We'll pause for a word from 424 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: our sponsor and we'll be with Toby Ball, and we're 425 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: back with more from Toby Ball on Strange Arrivals season two. 426 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: There's so much to talk about, specifically with the Randels 427 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: from Force incident, but I I kind of want people 428 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: to have the revelations in the middle of your podcast 429 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: rather than this one. Specifically from the skeptic angle, that 430 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: episode three, in particular is one where it feels like 431 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: your eyes get open to a lot of data that 432 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: wasn't available when the original stories are happening. Yeah, and 433 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: you can you'll get it from the title of episode 434 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: three that I'm not even gonna say on this episode. Uh, 435 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: but you mentioned some of the other Project Bluebook and 436 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: everything that kind of culminated up to before this occurrence. Um. 437 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: You talk a lot about j Allen Heinik and the 438 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: kind of the civilian part of the UFO information gathering 439 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: that was done by the US government. UM. I want 440 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: to talk about him a little bit, specifically in regards 441 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: to the encounters system that he created. Uh. You'll you'll 442 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: you'll be familiar with this close encounters of the first, second, 443 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: and third kind, as well as the additions that came later, 444 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: the fourth kind and the fifth kind. And I can't remember, 445 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: Toby if last time we talked with you we had 446 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: already talked with Stephen Greer or not, but we we 447 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: had him on the show to discuss the fifth kind. Um, 448 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: which who buddy, Uh, that's a whole thing. Uh. But 449 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: specifically I want to ask you about Heinik again, the 450 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: guy that created this thing. Why was he so interested 451 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: in close encounters of the second kind, which is I 452 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: think how you would describe the Randall sham Forrest incident. Yeah, 453 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: that's it's an interesting It probably kind of fall in 454 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: between the first and the second. So the close encounters 455 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: of the second kind are not just sort of visual 456 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: sightings but also involve some kind of physical evidence. And 457 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: that's you know, again, it's not like a tail fin 458 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: being found, because we would know about that, right, that 459 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: would be a big deal. But it's things like burned 460 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: brush or their markings on the ground where something might 461 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: have might have landed. Sometimes people may get something that 462 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: looks like a sunburn or like scrapes or or what 463 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: have you. Um So that was one of the things 464 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: that with Rundall show is there did seem to be 465 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: some physical evidence in addition to the sightings, and that's there. 466 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: There looked like there might have been, um some marketings 467 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: on the ground where a thing might have landed or 468 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: sort of been rooted to the spot by some other forces. 469 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: And they saw some stuff through the knife and goggles 470 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: that that where the trees seem to glow and give 471 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: off some kind of emanation. It's it's kind of interesting 472 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: in that. Uh. The guy's guy Ian Redpath, who was 473 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: a astronomer and a journalist you know, he went and 474 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: talked to the forster who lived in reynolstom Force, a 475 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: guy whose name is improbably Vincent thurk Kettle, and uh 476 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: and then uh so Third Kettle like kind of comes up. 477 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: It's sort of like, well, you know, and I guess 478 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: we're not giving away what's sort of the large answer. 479 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: I get it, So I would leave you to for 480 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: the big story. You can listen to UM episode three eight. 481 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: But for instance, for these like supposed like landing spots, 482 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: he looks at He's like, look, that's those are like 483 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: squirrel diggings or rabbit diggings. You know, that's that's that's 484 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: what it looks like when a rabbit is digging for food, 485 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: it leaves these spots. It's not you know, an eight 486 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: thousand pounds you know, extraterrestrial craft landing. So yeah, maybe 487 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: he's just covering it up, you know. Part of it's Yeah, 488 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite observations where when it comes 489 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: to that close encounter kind which is a great question 490 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: that uh the there's this line where it may have 491 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: been Third Kettle or someone associated with him and says, yes, 492 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: they're broken branches in that area because that's in a 493 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: forest and forests have broken branches, which I thought was like, 494 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was just enough snark, you know, to 495 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: to be the educational Forrester. But but one thing that's 496 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: interesting with this guy with Third Kettle is that he, 497 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: from what I understand, uh, he received a visit from 498 00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: some folks before he himself was like made aware what 499 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: had happened. Uh, there's there's this incident. I think it's yeah, 500 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: it's December, of course, and he says that it was 501 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: later in December when some people came to ask him 502 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: some questions like almost men in black style, And what 503 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: he said is that you know, um, this the kind 504 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: of the same vibe he has throughout a lot of things. Uh, 505 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: he said, I I didn't know what they were talking about, 506 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: and then later I found out. And apparently he still 507 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,239 Speaker 1: wasn't sure who those folks were, but I know who 508 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: they were. They were Majestic twelve for sure. There we go, 509 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: There we go. But I want to ask to because 510 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: there's there's another person that we could maybe introduce here 511 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: because we talked about talked about uh, we talked about halt. 512 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: How he doesn't uh, he doesn't shy away now or 513 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: you know later from his opinion of what he witnessed, 514 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: but he is, Uh, this is not a unanimous opinion 515 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: whether or not the storylines diverge. It appears there were 516 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: some Uh, there were some folks who were pretty skeptical. Um. 517 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: There was one that stood out to me, Colonel Ted Conrad, 518 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: who said that I'm just picking him as one example 519 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: of somebody who disputed the testimony of these of the 520 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: men who encountered these sightings. Do you feel that these 521 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: sightings get kind of shut down as a matter of 522 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: course in these sorts of investigations. I mean, given like 523 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: he said, project Blue Book closing down, given the fact 524 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: that it was heavily implied this might not be the 525 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: best thing for your career. Uh, Like, do you think 526 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: they were there were any fears of like recrimination or 527 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: ridicule when these guys are reporting this stuff the part 528 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: of the Air Force, on the part of these individuals, 529 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: on the part of these individuals reporting to their superior 530 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: My sense, and part of it comes from talking to 531 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: Jim mcgahey, who was also in the Air Force and 532 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: did some investigation of a zone on this stuff is 533 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: and also just from what you've seen the in the 534 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: official reaction is that nobody took it that seriously, right. 535 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: I think they thought, here are these guys, they saw something, 536 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: It's not something we have to worry about. And I think, 537 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: what what Conrad? If I'm remembering this correctly, you know, 538 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: part of what he really objects to is Halt in particular, 539 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: but Penistin and Burrows too sort of accusing them of 540 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: a cover up, and he's like, you know, you should 541 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: be ashamed to say that because you think something happened 542 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: and we didn't doesn't mean we're covering it up. It's 543 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: just you know, you're deluded and we aren't. I think 544 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: it's there is the Air Force his uh take on it. 545 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: So Peniston makes a comment, I don't know if it 546 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: made it to the to the series or not, where 547 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: afterwards he got he had sort of a guy who 548 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: sort of it was like his guardian angel in the 549 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: Air Force and kind of made sure that things went 550 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: well for him. Uh, And I think that was you know, 551 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't really in exchange for for keeping quiet about things, 552 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: but it's served an acknowledgment that he had he had 553 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: experienced something that kind of went up, went above and 554 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: beyond what would be expected. Again, this is just something 555 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: he said, like I you know, I've got no confirmation 556 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: or evidence that it actually happened, but it was part 557 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: of this larger story that he tells about randelshow that 558 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: nobody else can confirm. Do locals in the area at 559 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: this time in in the early eighties do locals in 560 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: the area? Uh? Respond? How how do the civilians that 561 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: are living, you know, roughly nearby, how do they digest 562 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: or encounter the story of this sighting? As in like 563 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: when do they learn about it? Um or is it 564 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: treated skeptically? Is he treated the way the Air Force 565 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: has treated it? I guess you know, I I don't. 566 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure. You know, in three when 567 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: it when it comes out in the in the London tabloids, 568 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: I think that would be the first time they would 569 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: hear about it. I don't know, like in the in 570 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: the years that immediately followed, what the feeling was. I 571 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: know there were some local people who are sort of 572 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: UFO interested to begin with, who you did some investigation 573 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: as you would expect, And now I guess it's another 574 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: way where it's a little bit like Britain's Roswell, where 575 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: it's you know, you hit all these anniversaries and their 576 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: stories about it, and there's still stories I and I 577 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: think I mentioned it in one of the episodes where 578 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: I was just going through like the last year's you know, 579 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: just doing a Google search on you know, British newspapers 580 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: and the last year's worth of rendalsome stories and there's 581 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: still you know, they're still coming up with with series 582 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: about what happened. And uh I was actually interviewed by 583 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: BBC Sussex I think about the podcast. So I think 584 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: there's still interests, but I think it's more as a 585 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: weird piece of local history more than we were we 586 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: were visited by aliens and maybe folklore at this point. Yeah. Absolutely. 587 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: One of the reasons I'm asking that is because what 588 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: we've found in cases like Roswell and in other cases 589 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: not even necessarily UFO related, ostensibly, we found that when 590 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: they happen in more isolated or slightly rural areas, that 591 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: locals tend to latch onto these things as a way 592 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: of sort of distinguishing their community or area, up to 593 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: and including creating a tourist industry. So that's that's why 594 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: I was asking what their consideration there was. Yeah, you know, 595 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: there is a you know, I believe bent Waters is 596 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 1: shut down and Woodbridge might be as well. But there 597 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: is like a UFO trail in Rendelssop Forest and they've 598 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: got a model of what you know, the craft was 599 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: described as. And you know, I think they have a 600 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: little plaque and stuff. But if you go if you 601 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: look at Rendlssom Forest UFO and on Google and you 602 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: go to the images, it's like kids climbing all over 603 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: this uh this model UFO. It's uh so that's I 604 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: think that's It's not like Roswell where they have you know, 605 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: UFO festivals and you know UFO theme parks or whatever. 606 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know exactly what Roswell has, but 607 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: I know that that's it's a UFO tourist destination. And 608 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: with that, we're going to take a quick break. We'll 609 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: be right back after a word from our sponsor and 610 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: we've returned. So I want to blow this out a 611 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: little bit more, even further just from the Rendelshop Forest incident, 612 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: because you you end up following so many trails as 613 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: you go throughout your season, you speak with these legendary 614 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: figures dude in in the world of UFO people that 615 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: we've been talking about and thinking about for a long time. 616 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: Perhaps personally for me, one of the most compelling people 617 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: you talked to is this guy named Richard C. Dody. 618 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: And when you hear that name, that might ring a bell. 619 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: We've discussed in before with regards to a documentary from 620 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 1: called Mirage Men to uh, some of the weird stuff 621 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: going on between I think it was Bill Moore and 622 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,479 Speaker 1: oh gosh, who's the person that was like being fed 623 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: information from Paul Benewitz? My goodness. Okay, So there's this 624 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: whole like world of UFO lore that exists around this guy. 625 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: When you're talking to him, you just you describe him, 626 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: first of all as a former professional counter intelligence agent. 627 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: I want to know if there's anything that it didn't 628 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: make it into the podcast that he told you that 629 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: was just too extraordinary or you just couldn't believe, or 630 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: you're like, that's definitely just info, just anything that you 631 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: encountered that you didn't put in. Yeah. So I talked 632 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: to him for about two hours, and so there was 633 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, you know, and I kind of 634 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: signposted hopefully well enough, because I think a lot of 635 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: what he was telling me it was sort of consistent 636 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: and compatible with the disinformation that he'd been passing back 637 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: in the eighties, like he's not changing his story and saying, well, 638 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: I you know, it's it's um, this is this is 639 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: the reality, and this is what I was telling people. 640 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: He's continuing with those stories. I'll tell you the one 641 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: thing that I got. I wrestled with whether to put 642 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: this in, and I actually wrote half an episode about this, 643 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: and then I just decided agetting too far outside of 644 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: the scope. But um, I don't know if you guys 645 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: have covered this, but Projects Serpo do you know about this? 646 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: So I haven't done it on air, but yeah, I 647 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: have a passing awareness yet so so Project Serpo. And 648 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna remember the name of the guy who 649 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: who ran this sort of UFO email list serve thing, 650 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: but he got he got this email from a guy 651 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: who was supposed to you know, quote unquote a government 652 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: insider who was leaking, according to him, information about this 653 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: this secret project. And it kind of goes it goes 654 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: way back to like the sort of context who it 655 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: goes way back to Roswell where they say, you know, 656 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 1: we recovered alive um alien called Eban I think it's 657 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,439 Speaker 1: what they called him. And uh so they bring him 658 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: and and he's kept for a number of years, and 659 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: they recover communication device from one of the UFOs and 660 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: they get it back working again, and he communicates back 661 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: to his home planet and like asked him to come 662 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: and get him, and then they send a group to 663 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: come and get him. But but this this alien has 664 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: died in the in the meantime. But they come and 665 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: there's a meeting and there's an agreement put in place 666 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: where there's gonna be like this exchange program where we're 667 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: going to send twelve either military people are astronauts. It's 668 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: not entirely clear to me which back to this planet 669 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: where these aliens come from. And it's a planet that's 670 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: code named by US. I don't know if it's what 671 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: the aliens call it, but it's called Serpo. So in 672 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: the late sixties, I believe, I'm not gonna remember the 673 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: exact date, we send twelve people. I think it's ten 674 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: men and two women on this spaceship off to this planet, 675 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: sort of like Close Encounters. Right at the end of 676 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: Close Encounters where people getting on spaceship. So they go 677 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: there and apparently it's this planet that's largely sort of 678 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: these small communities. You know, it's it's got you know, 679 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: six d thousand residents or something. It's a little bit 680 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: smaller than Earth's got these small communities, although there is 681 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,479 Speaker 1: like a central role government of some sort. And there's 682 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: this whole story about how they got into a war, 683 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: interplanetary war thousands of years ago and all this stuff. Anyway, 684 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: it's it's crazy, right, And then so two of the 685 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: people died on Surpo. Two decided they like Surpos so 686 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: much they were just going to stay there. So eight 687 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: return to Earth and Surpo is in the Zeta articularized system, 688 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,959 Speaker 1: which has two sons. So apparently the radiation from two 689 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: sons caused like these tremendous health problems for the for 690 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: the astronauts who returned, and I think the last one 691 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: supposedly died in like the early two thousand's. But anyway, 692 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: so I Doty was telling me the story, and and 693 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, I guess, not surprisingly, he's been kind of 694 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: accused of being the guy behind the story, and he 695 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: was saying, no, no, no, it wasn't me, it was 696 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: this other guy. And I went with Bill Moore and 697 00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: we met with him, and he denied it, but it's 698 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: pretty clear or that it's him. But he said he 699 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: talked to dot He told me, you know, I talked 700 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: to my my sources, and they said, yeah, you know, 701 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: some of the some of the details are wrong, but 702 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: the basics of the story that we sent astronauts to 703 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: this planet, Serpo and then they came back and all 704 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: this stuff. He's like that that's all accurate, Like that's 705 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 1: that's all based on truth. Um, what what? Yeah? But 706 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: I guess one of those you know, it's interesting and 707 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: then you're like, Okay, so you're a disinformation agent and 708 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: this is what you're laying on me, right, And I 709 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: think it's you know, it's it's in the context of 710 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 1: when he was first putting that stuff out there and 711 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: what what people believed at the time, and especially these 712 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: like people who are deep, deep, deep into the UFO culture, right, 713 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: what would they believe? And then I think like pushing 714 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: it to extremes because you want people to believe that 715 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: they have like the absolute insider knowledge of of what's 716 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: going on. That that's the whole My whole question is 717 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: leading up to why what advantage does that kind of 718 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: disinformation give to the United States government, because that's where 719 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: it would be originating, originating from, right, an agent of 720 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: the intelligence community of the United States government. Why would 721 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: they give that kind of thing to the UFO community 722 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: of all places. Yeah, So two things. One is Doughty 723 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: was very clear that like anything he did was coming 724 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: from above, right, Like he wasn't coming up with these 725 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: things and sending him on like he would get a 726 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: mission and information. So it was it was being manufactured 727 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: by you know, probably Air Force intelligence. You know, I 728 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: think that's that's sort of the question is why did 729 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: they do it this way? I think it's pretty clear that, um, 730 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 1: you know, this is again it's during the Cold War 731 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: when a lot of this stuff was going on late seventies, eighties, 732 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: early nineties, I guess early nineties as past the Cold War, 733 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: but late seventies, early mid eighties, and there was concern 734 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: that because a lot of sort of UFO hunters were going, 735 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, to to Groom Lake, uh and like going 736 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: up on these ridges and taking pictures and looking through 737 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: binoculars and what's going on in other Air Force bass 738 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: and there was concerned that what they were getting was 739 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: genuinely you know, top secret test craft including the stealth 740 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: the stealth planes, and they were concerned that that particularly 741 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: the Russians had infiltrated the UFO community, and we're trying 742 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: to get whatever information they could from those people who 743 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: were sort of observing these bases as intelligence. So what 744 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: their plan was will muddy the waters by putting in disinformation? 745 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's some question about why they 746 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: put in the disinformation they actually did, especially with Paul Benowitz, 747 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: which is another story get into in the podcast, seems 748 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: sort of unnecessarily cruel. I guess, you know, they really 749 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: took advantage of this guy who I think pretty clearly 750 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: had mental health concerns, and they just exacerbated them, you know, 751 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: rather than putting them at ease. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's 752 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,240 Speaker 1: the question of ethics right in this kind of counterintelligence operation. 753 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: I think also just personally, it's got some big these 754 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: kinds of disinfo stories, if this info they are, they 755 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: have these big suppressed screenwriter vibes, you know what I mean, 756 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: Like this somebody when somebody got their job at the 757 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: Air Force, right because they dropped out of film school, 758 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: and then they go and uh, they need to have 759 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: a good thing to muddy the waters, so they're like, 760 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: I remember my sophomore college script sata reticuli. Yeah, like 761 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: that's the I see how that could happen. I completely 762 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 1: agree with your point about the unnecessary cruelty, but I 763 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: think it's also a very very good point about the 764 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: strange game of bluff against bluff that occurred during the 765 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 1: Cold War, especially when we know that, if not the majority, 766 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: at least a minority of alleged UFO sidings later turned 767 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: out to be I wouldn't say solidly confirmed to be 768 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: secret craft man made, but we're there's compelling evidence, you know, 769 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: that people were seeing self bombers and saying this is 770 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: a UFO. It makes me think it really brings the 771 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 1: conversation kind of around to the present in my mind, 772 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: with this uh somewhat underwhelming disclosure document that the government 773 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,359 Speaker 1: put out. I mean, there's some fun stuff in there 774 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: that uh kind of it really brings up more questions 775 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: than it gives answers in terms of like the whole 776 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: category of like secret corporate things, like what does that 777 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: even consist of? It's so vague it's almost laughable. But um, 778 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: I do think that the whole like oh it was 779 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: like under development government tech that the public isn't aware 780 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: of yet. I think that's been aligned for quite a 781 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: long time. And I'm just wondering what you made of 782 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: that document, if you were underwhelmed, if it like kind 783 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: of like brought up new ideas for you or new 784 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: areas to pursue, or if it just kind of felt 785 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,800 Speaker 1: like a bit of a deflating moment. That's a great question, 786 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: because I was sort of hoping, you know. I I 787 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: started working on all this stuff, and we had we 788 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 1: had the timeline UH down before we kind of knew 789 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: what was going to happen with that report. But when 790 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: the time of the report came, I was like, this 791 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: is gonna be great because I'm spending this whole UH 792 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: season kind of talking about the development of of the 793 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: UFO folklore and what we think we know about UFOs, 794 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: and then this report is going to come out and 795 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: I can kind of tie up the series by by 796 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 1: looking at the report and talking about how the assumptions 797 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: that we've we've kind of built up over the decades 798 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of play into this report and the way we 799 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: kind of interpreted and understand it. And then the thing 800 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: came out and it's like, what am I supposed to 801 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 1: do with this, you know, it's just not enough. They're 802 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 1: they're to kind of tie back to all these other 803 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: things that we were talking about. So, you know, I 804 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: think it's not surprising that what you got wasn't definitive 805 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: in any way, and that it was just you know, 806 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, it seemed to me like 807 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you put out when you 808 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: don't really want to do it, and you're just like, 809 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,319 Speaker 1: you know, let's just let's just get this thing done, 810 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: and I want to put it out there. So nobody's 811 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 1: given me that much of a hard time. So I'm 812 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: just gonna kinda tow the line the government equivalent of 813 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: writing an essay about why I refused to write this essay. Yeah, yeah, no, 814 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: I thought that's I was like, you know, in tenth grade, 815 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: you know, if if I had to write something so anyway, UM, 816 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: you need to get Falcon on the phone, Toby. Yeah. Yeah, 817 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: So I don't know. I I read it and I 818 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: was just sort of underwhelmed, and I thought what would 819 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 1: be interesting was to see how the different sides tried 820 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 1: to kind of stake out that this was sort of 821 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: confirmatory or at least didn't uh disconfirm what their beliefs were. 822 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: But quite honestly, and and this is from admittedly like 823 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: a small sample size of like people who I follow 824 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,879 Speaker 1: on Twitter and websites I check, it seemed like after 825 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of of conversation, like it all just 826 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: kind of died away. You know. I think I think 827 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: people there wasn't enough meat there to really sustain much 828 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: of a discussion, so I think people just kind of 829 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: moved on. It feels by design though, that it died away, 830 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, like there was all this hoopla around it 831 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: and all this kind of build up, and then the 832 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: thing came out and it's like, well, this is all 833 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: kind of stuff we've already been talking about for a while. 834 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,480 Speaker 1: It's not really much new conversation to add. Um, So 835 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 1: it makes sense, And you're right, Banning, that's a really 836 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,839 Speaker 1: good analogy. It's like a book report by someone who 837 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: totally didn't want to write a book report. Um. But 838 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's by design and if you know, 839 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: we talked about on the episode where we covered this 840 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: document that there's definitely a much larger, broader report that 841 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 1: we will never see. Um, what do you think in 842 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, that that's an interesting question. I don't 843 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: know if it would be, like I do I cover 844 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: in in this season the Robertson and the Condon Reports, 845 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: which are sort of the two big reports that came 846 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,240 Speaker 1: out of Project Blue Book, And what they did, especially 847 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: the Condon Report, was to take a look at, you know, 848 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:46,240 Speaker 1: specific cases that you know had sort of confounded people 849 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 1: and try to get to the bottom of what it 850 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 1: actually was. And you know, there are a few that 851 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: they said like, we can't explain this, right. So I 852 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: don't know if they went to that to that level 853 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: where it was things like like the limits, uh stuff, 854 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: whether they did sort of deeper dive into that and 855 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 1: and you know, got whatever documents they could and and 856 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,319 Speaker 1: show them to scientists and try to come to some 857 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: kind of conclusion. Like I would kind of hope that 858 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,360 Speaker 1: would be what they would do. Like, I don't know 859 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: what else you would spend your your money on, um 860 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 1: if it's not to take a look at legitimately hard 861 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: to explain cases. And of course the government you know, 862 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: likes to sort of interrogate its own processes, so that 863 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,840 Speaker 1: might be another aspect to it, is what are we doing, 864 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 1: like how are we collecting this data, what are we 865 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 1: doing with this data, who's analyzing it, who's getting the 866 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: results of that analysis? Uh, that kind of stuff. But 867 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 1: like when somebody in the Pentagon, you know, gets this 868 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: mandate from Congress, it's like, we want to know everything 869 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: you know about UFOs. Like I think, depending on whose 870 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 1: desk it falls on, some people are gonna be like, 871 00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: oh my god, are you serious, Like I have to 872 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: spend my time on this, And then there'll be other 873 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,839 Speaker 1: people who would be like, all right, right on, Like 874 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: I I've been wondering about that myself. I mean, you 875 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,480 Speaker 1: know the past people. Yeah, you know, it just depends 876 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: on who gets it. I would say, you know, when 877 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: one excellent point you just made, Toby, that I agree 878 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: with Toli is is the love of self examination of 879 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,840 Speaker 1: methodology and process. Because a lot that the short public 880 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: UAP report, a great deal of it, as as we 881 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:38,399 Speaker 1: all know, is is about methodology and equating to if 882 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,759 Speaker 1: you guys really want us to do this, then we 883 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,919 Speaker 1: need more money and uh. And that's it's funny because 884 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,720 Speaker 1: I spoke with some friends and government and they said, 885 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's pretty common actually, and the most mundane 886 00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: of reports. If you ask people like to measure water 887 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,440 Speaker 1: levels in an estuary, part of their responses going to be, uh, 888 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: you know point bullet point seven. Also, we need more 889 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: money and more time to do this. Uh So that's 890 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,560 Speaker 1: while that struck some people as odd, it's very much, 891 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: um apparently a standard operating procedure. It's a known thing, 892 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 1: like a format of an essay. But when when we 893 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,120 Speaker 1: talk about this, one of the questions that I want 894 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: to ask you specifically about this story, which is, in 895 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: my opinion right now, the best most in depth and 896 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 1: objective examination of the Rendel Sham Forrest incident, what do 897 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: you think comes next? Like you know you I appreciate 898 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: you said, like there's this almost cyclical or dare I 899 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,359 Speaker 1: say seasonal reporting right in at least British news. Um, 900 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,440 Speaker 1: do you see do you see it linking with other things? 901 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: As Matt said, there are a lot of webs tracing 902 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: tracing away from this story right different rabbit holes. Um 903 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:07,880 Speaker 1: where what what would you like the audience too? What 904 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: would you like them to take away from this thing 905 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,439 Speaker 1: that you know, Honestly, unless you're a UFO enthusiasts, or 906 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:19,279 Speaker 1: unless you live in the United Kingdom, you you will 907 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: probably not have near as much awareness of this as 908 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 1: you will after hearing Strange Rival season two. So where 909 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 1: where where do you think this goes? And what do 910 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,719 Speaker 1: what do you we hope people get from this? So? Uh, 911 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,279 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's two things. One is this 912 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,680 Speaker 1: is part of like the larger theme of this season, 913 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,439 Speaker 1: which is, how does what we know about UFOs? How 914 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: did how did we get this information? Right? What are 915 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,720 Speaker 1: the folklore processes? Which is not to say the folklore again, 916 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,760 Speaker 1: not to use that as a like it's a fairy tale, 917 00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: but it's like it's it's information you're getting from from 918 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: sort of non official sources, right, And so how did 919 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,839 Speaker 1: this develop? And I think what's what's interesting about rendal 920 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,880 Speaker 1: ship and a lot of UFO stuff is that you know, 921 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: you have multiple stories, right from the people who encountered it. 922 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: You've got stories that vary somewhat, and you've got the 923 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,960 Speaker 1: skeptical explanation, which you know varies a lot from them. 924 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: So in these situations where none of these explanations are 925 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: taken as being the explanation, right, that's where stories you 926 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,759 Speaker 1: can kind of morph and take on a life of 927 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,319 Speaker 1: their own right. And you'll see that and that's kind 928 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: of what I try and and demonstrate at the beginning 929 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: of this series, is that because there isn't any settled 930 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,720 Speaker 1: upon narrative as as being the truth, that the story 931 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 1: grows in these different ways and it branches off in 932 00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 1: different ways. And then because the the UFO stuff, so 933 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's such a network and there's these people 934 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 1: who are involved in different parts of it and stuff. Um, 935 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,960 Speaker 1: like I did, I brought up I asked Richard Dody 936 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: about about Rendel Shum and he kind of said, you know, 937 00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: he heard about it, and he took a look at 938 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: the files and he talked to some people he knew, 939 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,240 Speaker 1: and it seemed legit to him, right, so he's adding 940 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: whatever authority he has to this story. But I didn't 941 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,440 Speaker 1: follow up because again this was a major part of 942 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: our conversation. But I kind of wanted to ask which story, 943 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: right are you? Are you lending your your voice to 944 00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: Peniston story or to Halt story or to Burrows story? Um, 945 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,919 Speaker 1: because there you know, in some cases, uh, they rule 946 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,120 Speaker 1: each other out, like you can't you can't believe both. 947 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,400 Speaker 1: So like in the end, I kind of took a 948 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: look at Rendal Shum as being sort of Writt Small 949 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: like this larger process by which um and the way 950 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to start it to kind of give you 951 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: an idea of where I was hoping to head, but 952 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: we couldn't get the rights is uh is. There was 953 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 1: a Jimmy Kimmel had a MoMA on uh this one time, 954 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: and you know, they're talking and he said, I can't 955 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,479 Speaker 1: remember exactly how it came up, but he said, Kimmel says, 956 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,560 Speaker 1: if I was president, like, as soon as we were 957 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: done getting sworn in, I'd like run off the stage 958 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: and go back to the White House and I'd ask 959 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: somebody like get me. I want to know what's going 960 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 1: on in Area fifty one and uh, you know, the 961 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,640 Speaker 1: whole the chlorade laughs. And Obama was like, well, that's 962 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,200 Speaker 1: just another reason why you won't be president and uh yeah, 963 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,800 Speaker 1: And I was thinking, you know what's interesting about that 964 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,320 Speaker 1: is nobody has to be explained what Area fifty one is, right, 965 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,480 Speaker 1: even if you don't care a thing about UFOs, It's 966 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,640 Speaker 1: just ubiquitous in the culture, and it brings with it 967 00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:02,000 Speaker 1: certain certain you know lots about government cover ups and 968 00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,440 Speaker 1: alien technology and and all this stuff. And it's like, 969 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: how did we get here right, How did because the 970 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: government hasn't put out anything saying this is what's going on, 971 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: it's all through these sort of informal channels. I don't 972 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 1: want to spoil this for anybody listening right now, but 973 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,880 Speaker 1: you have to listen to Is it the last episode 974 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: or is it the penultimate episode where Chris Carter and 975 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:30,320 Speaker 1: Glenn Morrigan. Yeah, second to last, Okay, so there. I 976 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: think it's Glenn Morgan's explanation of how he would write 977 00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:38,600 Speaker 1: plots for some of the X Files episodes, which mirror 978 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 1: how a lot of the unexplainable or unprovable conspiracy theories 979 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: that have developed over the years come about. Where there 980 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,840 Speaker 1: are two truths that do exist, you can find them, 981 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: they're researchable, they they are real. Then you put something 982 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of them that's a lie or something 983 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,080 Speaker 1: you make up, and you connect it all together in 984 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,320 Speaker 1: saying I think he calls it a sandwich or oreo 985 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: or cooking or whatever exactly, and he just discusses how 986 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,560 Speaker 1: every episode of X Files a show which informed me 987 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,120 Speaker 1: and countless others about this subject even though it's not real, 988 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: but it forms the for the folklore around UFOs and 989 00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these subjects um that is mirrored with 990 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories that are popping up from all quarters of 991 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 1: the earth about all various different kinds of subjects. Uh. 992 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,320 Speaker 1: It's the same way X Files are written. Anyway, Just 993 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 1: it blew my mind. Highly recommend you check out that 994 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,960 Speaker 1: episode as you're listening through, you know, just an addition 995 00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: to being able to talk to Chris Carter and Glenn 996 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 1: Morrigan about the work they did. What I what I 997 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,000 Speaker 1: thought was interesting about the X Files and and and 998 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: some of the other UH media about UFOs, but especially 999 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: that because I think that's, you know, that's the biggest, 1000 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 1: most influential show. Like this is the way that it 1001 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: it both takes f um the existing UFO folklore as 1002 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: source material and then outputs this fictionalized version of it 1003 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:14,440 Speaker 1: that people come to sort of internalized as sort of 1004 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,480 Speaker 1: the new folklore. Right, So I think it's like this 1005 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:23,440 Speaker 1: interesting uh process. And Glenn actually talks about It's an 1006 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 1: episode he does about um ice cores in in the Arctic. 1007 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 1: I think, where they where they find these worms and 1008 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,440 Speaker 1: and what happens and then he says that, you know, 1009 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 1: years afterwards, people are like, oh, yeah, I read the 1010 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: article about that. You got that idea from in Glens 1011 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,120 Speaker 1: Like there was no article. I just made it up 1012 01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:44,920 Speaker 1: and like, oh no, man, it was a national geographic. 1013 01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,840 Speaker 1: I read it and uh, and so that. But that's 1014 01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,680 Speaker 1: how that stuff enters enters the realm, right, It's like 1015 01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: you hear it and you don't you remember the story, 1016 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,440 Speaker 1: you don't remember where it came from, and you you 1017 01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,240 Speaker 1: kind of process it as, oh, yeah, this thing I 1018 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,400 Speaker 1: read about something that happened, which can be a bad thing. 1019 01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and you know it's not always. You know, 1020 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,280 Speaker 1: it's can certainly lead to people spreading things that aren't 1021 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,760 Speaker 1: backed in science at all. But I think it's really 1022 01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: interesting you point that up, because you know, science fiction 1023 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:19,479 Speaker 1: at its best, oftentimes as prescient, you know, oftentimes has 1024 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,520 Speaker 1: sort of this forward thinking um attitude behind it. The 1025 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,560 Speaker 1: things that are ultimately pulled out of the minds of 1026 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: these amazing creators do come to pass in some ways. 1027 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,440 Speaker 1: And I think X files does a great job of 1028 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,400 Speaker 1: kind of building on that folklore and almost at times 1029 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,560 Speaker 1: like making it these like weird cautionary tales about you know, 1030 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,640 Speaker 1: certain things in society. It's interesting, but you know, you're right. 1031 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,200 Speaker 1: I think the way you've built Strange Arrivals as this 1032 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,920 Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't know, it's a really interesting 1033 01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 1: thesis about UFO reports being this new oral tradition that's 1034 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: kind of passed down and kind of gives personality and 1035 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,440 Speaker 1: character to these like small kind of off the map locations. 1036 01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:59,880 Speaker 1: And UM, I think it's really really well done and 1037 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,840 Speaker 1: really thoughtful, and H really enjoy the show very much. 1038 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, well, this is and 1039 01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,440 Speaker 1: this is something that I've I've also been super interested in. 1040 01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,120 Speaker 1: You know, we we've got previous episodes on the ways 1041 01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:17,040 Speaker 1: in which, um, the ways in which stories of change 1042 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,280 Speaker 1: leans in Europe centuries and centuries ago match pretty much 1043 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:27,600 Speaker 1: one to one with stories of alien abductions, history, folklore. Uh, 1044 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: these traditions, they are reciprocal. They are two way street 1045 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,400 Speaker 1: fiction and fact talked together to get their story straight. 1046 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,200 Speaker 1: And this is uh, this is an amazing process uh 1047 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,880 Speaker 1: to be have to say, I I was floored by 1048 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,120 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals season one, and just between just between us 1049 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,920 Speaker 1: and everybody listening, I guess I I thought, can can 1050 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,919 Speaker 1: this lightning in a bottle happen again? With season two? 1051 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,120 Speaker 1: And Over the Moon not a UFO but over the 1052 01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,840 Speaker 1: moon to say that is very much the case, and 1053 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,920 Speaker 1: we hope that we've given you just enough of a 1054 01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:09,320 Speaker 1: taste that you will immediately pause this episode and go 1055 01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:14,160 Speaker 1: straight to your podcast platform of choice for Strange Arrivals 1056 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,920 Speaker 1: season two. I believe the entirety of the show is 1057 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: out now as our fellow conspiracy realists are hearing this, 1058 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 1: But there's a ton of bonus content coming to right toy. Yeah, 1059 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,640 Speaker 1: there'll be a bunch of full interviews with like Chris 1060 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,720 Speaker 1: Carter and Glenn Morrigan, and I'm not gonna put the 1061 01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:38,960 Speaker 1: whole tote so I can share some choice bits with 1062 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 1: you guys. There's not enough like parts, you know. I 1063 01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,160 Speaker 1: would just hate for somebody to jump into it, like 1064 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,000 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes in and be like, oh my god, I 1065 01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: can't believe that we're sending people to the planet Serpo 1066 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,760 Speaker 1: without me like being able to sign posts that. You know, 1067 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:55,919 Speaker 1: you've got to take all this with a huge grain 1068 01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,040 Speaker 1: of assault. Full disclosure, everybody. I am listed as an 1069 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,880 Speaker 1: executive producer on this show, but I had exactly point 1070 01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,120 Speaker 1: zero five percent to do with it. Uh, just awesome, man, 1071 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,439 Speaker 1: big fan, As as somebody who barely touched it likewise. Uh, 1072 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,920 Speaker 1: full disclosure, I think Nolan and I both are just 1073 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,320 Speaker 1: big fans here. We're civilians on this one. But Toby, 1074 01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for becoming one of our returning 1075 01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,760 Speaker 1: guests on this show. Today. We're only partially joking about 1076 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,120 Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live rules. So I think by the time 1077 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,400 Speaker 1: you're on here five times, there is some legal requirement 1078 01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:39,400 Speaker 1: for us to get you a cool jacket. Uh. Nice. 1079 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,000 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, while we're waiting for that, where 1080 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,960 Speaker 1: can people go to learn more about your work with 1081 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,280 Speaker 1: strange arrivals and also your other persons? Um? Well? Uh? 1082 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,320 Speaker 1: Probably the best places Twitter, which is at at Toby 1083 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:58,240 Speaker 1: ball n h Um. My website has been sadly neglected 1084 01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,120 Speaker 1: based on all the other stuff I've doing. Uh, but 1085 01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:02,960 Speaker 1: that's the that's the best place you can Also, you 1086 01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,160 Speaker 1: can also search my name on Amazon. You can find 1087 01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,200 Speaker 1: out more about my books there. And if you find 1088 01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,800 Speaker 1: yourself online. Uh. And you would like to follow up 1089 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,440 Speaker 1: with us as well, we would love to hear your feedback, 1090 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:20,480 Speaker 1: your opinion about Randelship Forrest incident and related incidents. What 1091 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:25,520 Speaker 1: actually happened that December in the early nineteen eighties. Let 1092 01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,760 Speaker 1: us know your take We try to be easy to 1093 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,520 Speaker 1: find online. You can find us on the Internet at 1094 01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,280 Speaker 1: conspiracy Stuff on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. You can find 1095 01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,400 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Conspiracy Stuff Show. And Hey, while 1096 01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,240 Speaker 1: you're on the internet, why not swoop on over to 1097 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star review and 1098 01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,080 Speaker 1: then also go over to Strange Arrivals and do the 1099 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,640 Speaker 1: same because it is absolutely worthy of all five of 1100 01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,080 Speaker 1: those stars, if not more. Um, and if you want 1101 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:51,840 Speaker 1: to not be on the Internet, you can give us 1102 01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,560 Speaker 1: telephone call. That's right, we have a phone number. It 1103 01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,600 Speaker 1: is one eight three three st d w y t K. 1104 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,120 Speaker 1: When you call, you've got three minutes. Please give yourself 1105 01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,000 Speaker 1: a cool nickname that isn't your real name, so Richard C. 1106 01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:09,120 Speaker 1: Doughtie doesn't know who you really are. Yeah, seriously, Um, 1107 01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,360 Speaker 1: say anything you want to. If you've got anything person 1108 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,360 Speaker 1: will say to us or for the show, leave it 1109 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 1: right at the end. That would be wonderful. If you've 1110 01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,920 Speaker 1: got more to say, then you can fit into that 1111 01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,600 Speaker 1: three minutes. If you've got some links or some maybe 1112 01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,560 Speaker 1: books or anything you want to tell us about, you 1113 01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,919 Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email. We are 1114 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:48,560 Speaker 1: conspiracy at I Heeart Radio dot com stuff they don't 1115 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,080 Speaker 1: want you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio. 1116 01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1117 01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1118 01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:57,480 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.