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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it is

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Speaker 1: not Saturday, but it is time for a vault episode.

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Speaker 1: This episode originally aired on August eleven, and it was

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Speaker 1: about the life indoors. Yeah, this was a MASDA sponsored episode,

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Speaker 1: and I believe that the genesis for the idea was simply, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we've been spending a lot of time indoors, you know,

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Speaker 1: several months into the pandemic. Uh, what is that? Like?

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Speaker 1: What is the interial interior world? What is the inside

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Speaker 1: environment that we have created for ourselves. I remember enjoying

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Speaker 1: this one. I think I recall it made me look

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Speaker 1: at the door frames inside my house in a different way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have not looked at my door frames the same

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Speaker 1: way since. Let's jump right in Welcome to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: taking a look at interior spaces. Yeah. Year certainly brings

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Speaker 1: to mind the old curse. May you live in interesting times?

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Speaker 1: And one of the factors here has of course been

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Speaker 1: the coronavirus COVID nineteen pandemic, and in an effort to

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Speaker 1: fight the spread of the illness, save lives, and prevent

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Speaker 1: overwhelming our hospitals, we've made a lot of changes to

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Speaker 1: our lives, and these range from the simple such as

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Speaker 1: just wearing a mask when you're out in public and

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Speaker 1: you can't social distance from people, to the harder choices

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Speaker 1: about employment and UH. In life choices, we've all been

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Speaker 1: social distancing and stay at home orders, teleworking and quarantine

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Speaker 1: have meant that we've all been spending a lot more

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Speaker 1: time at home. Now. Depending on your home, this could

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of things, but we wanted to explore

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Speaker 1: what this means from a biological UH standpoint. For the

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Speaker 1: most part here now now. Make no mistakes, spending more

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Speaker 1: time at home has absolutely been the right move. But

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Speaker 1: just as it's forced you to focus more on, say

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Speaker 1: that weird staying on your ceiling, we wanted to focus

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Speaker 1: on the other often unseen aspects of life in the

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Speaker 1: home right much the same way that being, say, on

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Speaker 1: a Spanish galleon out in the middle of the ocean

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Speaker 1: might have made you pay much more attention to the

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Speaker 1: biology and behavior of of ship rats than you ever

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Speaker 1: would have otherwise. I think being at home more and

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Speaker 1: more is forcing all of us to turn our eyes

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Speaker 1: and maybe our microscopes and magnifying glasses to the corners

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Speaker 1: and the cornices, and the shower heads and the drain

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Speaker 1: traps and all of the wonderful places in our house

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Speaker 1: where life dwells. Yeah, we're gonna really get into the

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Speaker 1: difference really between the natural world outside of our homes

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Speaker 1: and the unnatural world inside, and get into some ideas

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Speaker 1: about how how we could perhaps enable our interior world

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Speaker 1: to be a little more on the natural side of things.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into all that, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: take a moment here just to discuss the history of

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Speaker 1: houses in general, you know, just to get into the

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Speaker 1: concept of what a house is our our first and

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Speaker 1: still most important interior artificial environment. So you can certainly

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Speaker 1: look at a home as an artificial cave to a

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Speaker 1: certain extent. And indeed we have lots of early evidence

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Speaker 1: that early hominants sought out shelter in caves in the

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Speaker 1: same way that many other animals do. Uh. These can

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Speaker 1: shelter one against the elements and against predators, and as

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Speaker 1: recently as a hundred and thirty thousand years ago, cave

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Speaker 1: dwellers were already augmenting these natural interior environments with things

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Speaker 1: like rough stone walls. They were using timbers so um.

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Speaker 1: So you know, even a hundred thirty thousand years ago,

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Speaker 1: we were taking naturally occurring interior spaces and making them

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Speaker 1: a little less natural. Um. And of course, on top

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Speaker 1: of just the shelter that caves can provide, it also

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Speaker 1: seems that caves had a strong sacred meaning to many

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Speaker 1: of these uh phistoric people's. Those might be important, but

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Speaker 1: ultimately proximity to water is far more important. Thus, as

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Speaker 1: Kate Spence and Brian and Fagan point out in UH

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Speaker 1: in the a section of the seventy Grade Inventions of

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Speaker 1: the Ancient World about homes, most early hominids lived out

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Speaker 1: in the open, near streams and lakes. They built temporary structures,

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Speaker 1: and most of this has been lost to time, but

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Speaker 1: some of the earliest evidence of potential structures for homes

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Speaker 1: goes back one point seven two point seven million years

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Speaker 1: ago with homo erective sites in southern Africa, and these

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Speaker 1: were potentially contemporary with the domestication of fire um and

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Speaker 1: these would have been temporary tents, but but they still

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Speaker 1: would have been artificial interior environments. Now more secure evidence

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Speaker 1: comes from the Ukraine roughly forty four thousand years ago,

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Speaker 1: the mammoth bone structures from Maladova, which we recently discussed

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Speaker 1: on the show. Actually, yeah, we did uh talking about

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Speaker 1: these uh. That would have been structures in one of

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Speaker 1: the northernmost habitable regions of the Earth at the time,

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Speaker 1: because this was during a time of glacial advance where

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Speaker 1: the polar ice caps from the north were coming deep

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Speaker 1: down into Europe and Asia and uh, and so this

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Speaker 1: would have been far far north, way up among the

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Speaker 1: ice and for some reason humans were building these structures

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Speaker 1: out of the bones of mammoth And we don't know that.

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Speaker 1: There's still things we don't know about those structures, like

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Speaker 1: how how consistently they were inhabited and for how long

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Speaker 1: and so forth. Right now, beyond this, the history of

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Speaker 1: human homes is is largely dictated by local resources and

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Speaker 1: a local climate. A long process of trial and air

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Speaker 1: ends up leading to the development of regional and cultural

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Speaker 1: building forms construction methods. But before nine thousand b C.

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Speaker 1: We see evidence of clay houses in Palestine, what is

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Speaker 1: today Palestine, and before seven thousand BC we see rectangular

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Speaker 1: dwellings in Anatolia. But but home is far more than

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Speaker 1: just a shelter. As the authors here point out, houses

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Speaker 1: became key to social structure as well. They point out

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Speaker 1: that ethnographic studies in West Africa reveal complex and layered

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Speaker 1: symbolic associations and rituals in the context of dwelling. And

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Speaker 1: this is a you know, it shows a clear role

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Speaker 1: of physically structuring and expressing the relationship between different members

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Speaker 1: of the household. And we see this of course in

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Speaker 1: um and cultures, you know, throughout history and throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: There's this physical shape of the place. Uh, and then

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Speaker 1: that ends up defining or influencing like that, there's this

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Speaker 1: this feedback between the two. It goes both ways, right,

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like pouring a liquid into a container.

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Speaker 1: Oh of course. And this actually got me thinking about

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Speaker 1: how having permanent, constructed dwellings must have changed the way

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Speaker 1: that power and hierarchy are expressed in social groups. And

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Speaker 1: of course this is true with normal social status. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's stake out through displays of wealth. There certain

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Speaker 1: kinds of taste or aesthetics in your house, your apartment,

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Speaker 1: you're you know, you're living space. But this also made

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Speaker 1: me think about the way that for many leadership positions,

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Speaker 1: there is a special house, there's a special dwelling place

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Speaker 1: that comes with the job, rather than belonging to an individual.

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Speaker 1: So here in Georgia we have the Governor's mansion, there

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Speaker 1: is the White House there, you know, the palace that

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Speaker 1: the king stays at in many cultures, and there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a strange metonomy that derives from this. Often the

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Speaker 1: house identified with the position of power is used as

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Speaker 1: a metaphorical stand in for the person. You know, like

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Speaker 1: today the White House said such that, like the permanent

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Speaker 1: dwelling place is actually almost the source of the power,

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Speaker 1: and there just happens to be a particular person living

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Speaker 1: there right now. Yeah, it's weird. We get so used

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Speaker 1: to it because it's just part of our daily, um

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Speaker 1: daily you know, linguistic world. You know, you can you

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Speaker 1: read the news, you read about these very as locations,

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Speaker 1: these houses, and it's almost as if they have some

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Speaker 1: sort of intrinsic power to them, right, I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you weren't familiar with their cultures, you would read this then,

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Speaker 1: and people might think, oh, well, they they clearly thought

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Speaker 1: that this big white house had some sort of magical powers,

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Speaker 1: and whoever was allowed to go inside it became the

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Speaker 1: ruler of a country and got to do whatever they want. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's funny that it's so normalized for us, like

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Speaker 1: we've forgotten to notice that that's weird that like the

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Speaker 1: power is somehow linked to the house itself. Um. But

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Speaker 1: it also makes me wonder, you know, did we think

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Speaker 1: about power differently before living in artificially built environments? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: To what extent did we? Um? Did we end up

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Speaker 1: yet changing the way we live our lives by altering

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Speaker 1: this physical environment which we live. I mean, it makes sense,

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Speaker 1: right because so much of what we do, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's dictated by the environments that we evolved to thrive in. Right.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I don't think we need to remind everyone

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Speaker 1: about the value of a home. Housing tends to be

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Speaker 1: one of, if not the most expensive parts of your life.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's interesting to think about them not simply

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Speaker 1: as this valuable thing in your life, for a valuable

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Speaker 1: location where your life takes place. The basic idea of

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Speaker 1: the house may be as old as our mastery of fire,

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Speaker 1: and it forms out of and forms ideas of who

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Speaker 1: and what we are, and of course it may do

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Speaker 1: so in more and more powerful ways every year, as

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Speaker 1: humanity slowly transitions to become a more indoors e on

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Speaker 1: average species. All the time, I was reading some interesting

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Speaker 1: figures about this trend in a book by the science

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Speaker 1: writer Emily and thus Uh And the book is called

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Speaker 1: The Great Indoors The Surprising Science of How Buildings shape

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Speaker 1: our behavior, health, and happiness. This is a really interesting

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Speaker 1: book and I'm going to refer to it throughout this

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Speaker 1: episode because she has an early chapter that's very good

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Speaker 1: about the microbial ecology of indoor spaces. But she also

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Speaker 1: gets into some interesting territory about the trends in how

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Speaker 1: much built environment ment and floor space we're actually creating. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this currently varies a lot by culture and climate, but

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Speaker 1: in some parts of the world human kind is transitioned

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Speaker 1: to an almost entirely indoor existence. And this really shows

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Speaker 1: in the way we've transformed our environments to convert to

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Speaker 1: this largely indoor existence. Anti writes, quote, the island of

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Speaker 1: Manhattan is only twenty three square miles in size, but

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Speaker 1: has three times that much indoor floor space. And furthermore,

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Speaker 1: she refers to a report put together by a United

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Speaker 1: Nations commission in which concluded that over the next forty years,

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Speaker 1: humankind is going to roughly double the amount of indoor

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Speaker 1: floor space that exists currently. And the way this works

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Speaker 1: out is quote those additions are equivalent to building the

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Speaker 1: current floor area of Japan every single year from now

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Speaker 1: until that much floor is going to take a lot

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Speaker 1: of pin sall. Yeah, I mean it is crazy to

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Speaker 1: think about how certainly during pre pandemic times, you know,

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Speaker 1: you would you had this home, this interior space that

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Speaker 1: you live in, you sleep in, you bathe in, you

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Speaker 1: spend time in, and then uh, and it is, you know,

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Speaker 1: very much like the center of your life. And then

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Speaker 1: you're getting into another interior space which happens to be

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Speaker 1: motorized and on wheels, and use that to travel then

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Speaker 1: a certain distance to another interior space that you'll go

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Speaker 1: into to work either set at a desk or you know,

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Speaker 1: work with some sort of machinery or what have you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day back into

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Speaker 1: this motorized interior space and then return to the one

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Speaker 1: in which you live it's worth remembering yet again, biologically speaking,

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Speaker 1: this is not normal. This is not like what our

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Speaker 1: bodies are naturally adapted to. Spending this much time indoors

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Speaker 1: is still fairly historically novel, and it is very weird. Yes.

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Speaker 1: But the other big thing this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a recurring theme throughout the rest of the episode, is

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Speaker 1: that these artificial spaces that we made, they are they're

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Speaker 1: not completely alien, you know, they're they're constructed all of

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Speaker 1: the natural world. They're not the natural environment, but they

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Speaker 1: are made out of it. And uh and and much

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Speaker 1: of the natural world is still present, just in um

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Speaker 1: rebalanced and unbalanced ways. Uh So that that is going

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Speaker 1: to be what we're going to really get into, Like

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Speaker 1: what in creating these interior spaces, what sort of environments

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Speaker 1: have we created? Right? Indoor spaces are not unnatural, and

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Speaker 1: that they're completely separate from the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: but they're also not just like outdoor spaces. They're kind

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Speaker 1: of like a special niche environment, like a like a

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Speaker 1: cliff face or an island. You know, it's a place

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Speaker 1: where you have to investigate. Okay, what kinds of life

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Speaker 1: from around and other places are going to colonize this space. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and who are your roommates? Who are your inhuman

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Speaker 1: roommates in this space where you've been trapped uh these

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Speaker 1: past several months. Well, maybe we should take a break

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Speaker 1: and then when we come back we can start talking

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Speaker 1: about those in human roommates. Than alright, we're back, so U.

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Speaker 1: Rob Donne, a professor of applied ecology at North Carolina

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Speaker 1: State University and Raleigh, wrote an excellent book titled Never

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Speaker 1: Home Alone. From Microbes to Millipedes, camel, crickets and honey bees,

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Speaker 1: then natural History of where we Live. That's a nice

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Speaker 1: long title. I know you'll be like those those long

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Speaker 1: colond titles. I want like a whole paragraph after the colon.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's as hard as I go. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: good title. Anyway. It came out last October and it's

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Speaker 1: currently available in all four mats. So however, you read

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Speaker 1: your books. But I remember hearing an interview with the

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Speaker 1: author around the time that came out, and I picked

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Speaker 1: it up for this episode because it's a yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's just a very well written book and it

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Speaker 1: really gets into some just crazy mind bending facts about

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Speaker 1: these artificial environments, most of which we won't even really

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Speaker 1: be able to get into in this episode, but we

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Speaker 1: wanted to touch on it. So if you look around

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Speaker 1: it's science papers, you'll find Dunn's name um all over

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Speaker 1: the place when it comes to this area of microbial life.

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Speaker 1: For instance, he's the co author on a two thousand

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Speaker 1: eighteen paper that found that chimpanzee treetop beds, which are

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Speaker 1: like a daily affair, contained fewer microbes and arthropods than

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Speaker 1: human beds, which is not shocking given again the the idea,

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Speaker 1: there are beds that are kind of like set in place. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we will change the sheets, but it's not

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Speaker 1: every night probably, whereas the chimps are going to be

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Speaker 1: refreshing things a bit more. Also, of the bacteria in

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Speaker 1: human beds stem from our own bodies and includes fecal, oral,

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Speaker 1: and skin bacteria. Yeah. The way I heard it put,

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Speaker 1: because this is covered in anthesis book too, is that

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Speaker 1: with the with the human bed basic you're just gonna

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Speaker 1: find tons of human type stuff in it. But for

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Speaker 1: a chimpanzees bed, you will find you know, bugs, arthur

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Speaker 1: pods and microbes in in this bed, but they're almost

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Speaker 1: all from the surrounding environment. Uh, The way it was

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Speaker 1: put was that you might not be able to tell

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Speaker 1: that a chimpanzee had ever been there. Right, very strange.

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Speaker 1: But from anthesis book, there's uh So, there's a chapter

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Speaker 1: that discusses a lot of the work of the same researcher,

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Speaker 1: robbed On, the the ecologist at North Carolina State, but

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Speaker 1: also a researcher that he's collaborated with a lot named

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Speaker 1: Noah Fierre, who's a microbiologist at u C Boulder, And

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Speaker 1: there's a part where it talks about a survey that

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Speaker 1: they tried to conduct called the Wildlife of Our Homes Project.

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Speaker 1: There was a pilot study they started in North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: and so what they would do was they would get

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Speaker 1: a bunch of families to take cotton swab samples of

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Speaker 1: seven different surfaces from inside their homes. And this would

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Speaker 1: include a countertop, a cutting board, a refrigerator or shelf,

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Speaker 1: a pillow case, a toilet seat, a TV screen, and

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Speaker 1: then the trim around an interior doorway. And the results

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Speaker 1: were interesting. They found more than two thousand types of

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Speaker 1: microbes in these samples, and there were distinct microbial habitats

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Speaker 1: within the house. So perhaps on surprisingly kitchens would have

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Speaker 1: a lot of bacteria that are naturally associated with food

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Speaker 1: that might be you know, found on food or aid

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Speaker 1: in the decomposition of food. Meanwhile, doorways would have a

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Speaker 1: lot of environmental species stuff you might find outside the house,

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Speaker 1: you know, things you would find on plant leaves and

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Speaker 1: in the soil. But then this was the quote that

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Speaker 1: really stuck with me. And this writes quote from a

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Speaker 1: microbiological perspective, toilet seats and pillow cases looked strikingly similar.

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Speaker 1: Both were dominated by bacteria that typically live on our

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Speaker 1: skin and in our mouths. All right, So that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a shocking sounding statement. They might make you

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Speaker 1: want to instantly go and wash your pillow case and

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Speaker 1: maybe your toilet seat too. But but but hold on,

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Speaker 1: wait till we get through the whole episode, because I

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Speaker 1: think one of the big take comes here is like,

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Speaker 1: if you think that your pillow is going to be

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Speaker 1: a microbial sterile um experience, you know you should think again,

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Speaker 1: likewise with the toilet seat, likewise with anything in the house.

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Speaker 1: So in Dunn's book, one of one of the things

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Speaker 1: he drives home is that again our our house environments

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Speaker 1: are again not natural environments, but they are made out

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Speaker 1: of the natural environment, and they are not cut off

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Speaker 1: from the natural environment. So what we end up with

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Speaker 1: is an artificial environment that kind of mashes up all

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Speaker 1: of these various environmental parameters, sometimes in surprising ways, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to microbes, because if we as we've

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Speaker 1: discussed on the show plenty of times before, there is

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Speaker 1: no microbe free living. Our bodies, independent of anything else,

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Speaker 1: are home to multitudes of microbes. To come back to

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Speaker 1: a quote that we've pulled up on the show in

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Speaker 1: discussion in the past, in a Life in a World

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Speaker 1: without Microbes by Gilbert and Newfeld bushed in Plist biology,

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Speaker 1: the authors contend that quote it would be false to

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Speaker 1: claim that macroscopic life cannot exist without microbes. However, although

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Speaker 1: life would persist in the absence of microbes, both the

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Speaker 1: quantity and quality of life would be reduced drastically. So

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Speaker 1: Done points out that even the outer layer of our

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Speaker 1: skin is just this rich microbial environment. Our armpit bacteria

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Speaker 1: are essentially fed by glands, nurturing what has likely been

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Speaker 1: an historically important microbe passenger, and we can we can

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Speaker 1: look at this as an example of the sort of

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Speaker 1: microbe that then thrives in our creative environments. We tend

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Speaker 1: to find the same bacteria that that that thrives in

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Speaker 1: our under arms living in our homes, especially homes where

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Speaker 1: males live. If there's like a predominantly male population of

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Speaker 1: a household, you will find this particular bacterium. I believe

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Speaker 1: it's uh corn a bacterium, just thriving Coriina bacterium, Corina bacterium. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So this thing about the sex composition of the household

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Speaker 1: versus the household microbiome was also mentioned in anthesis book,

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Speaker 1: and it's very interesting. So, just as you say, homes

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Speaker 1: with more male residents tend to have higher counts of

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Speaker 1: bacteria such as Rosa burria and this is commonly a

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Speaker 1: gut bacteria, as well as Karina bacterium and Derma bacter

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Speaker 1: and uh at. This points out that these are most

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Speaker 1: common on the skin. Now, Coarina Bacterium is often found

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Speaker 1: in the armpit. As you say, it is a contributor

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Speaker 1: to body odor. But also it's been found that just

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Speaker 1: on average, men tend to have more Coarina bacteria on

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Speaker 1: their skin than women do, and men tend to shed

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Speaker 1: more skin microbes into the environment than women do. And

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Speaker 1: then on the other hand, households that have more women

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Speaker 1: living in them tend to have higher counts of Lactobacillus,

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Speaker 1: which is our old friend from the fermentation episode. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this translates to a workable difference, maybe not,

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Speaker 1: but it makes me wonder if it's possible that houses

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Speaker 1: occupied by high a numbers of women might be a

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Speaker 1: better place to make sauerkraut. Interesting to some to think about,

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Speaker 1: but sort of what this suggests is that humans are

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Speaker 1: walking fountains of microbes. We we shed our microbial passengers

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Speaker 1: everywhere we go, and it turns out this can be

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Speaker 1: kind of quantified to creepy levels. So consider this. No

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Speaker 1: two people's microbiomes are exactly the same. Each person is

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Speaker 1: a unique ecosystem. So if everybody has their own unique

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Speaker 1: profile of microbiota, and everybody is shedding microbial life all

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Speaker 1: the time, are we essentially leaving identifiable microbial evidence of

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Speaker 1: our presence everywhere we go, you know, kind of the

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Speaker 1: slug trail of our microbiome all over the place. And

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Speaker 1: the answer appears to be kind of yeah. And this

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Speaker 1: reports one study led by Jack Gilbert at the University

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Speaker 1: of Chicago. I think that might be the Gilbert of

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Speaker 1: the Gilbert and Neufeld study that you mentioned a minute ago.

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Speaker 1: But it follows three families that were in the process

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Speaker 1: of moving into new homes. And what Gilbert and colleagues

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Speaker 1: found was that each family began to colonize the new

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Speaker 1: house with their microbes within just hours of arriving there. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that the researchers quote could even detect the individual

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Speaker 1: microbial contributions of each family member. Uh. And then Gilbert says,

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Speaker 1: people who spent more time in the kitchen, their microbiome

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Speaker 1: dominated that space. People who spent more time in the bedroom,

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Speaker 1: their microbiome dominated there. You could start to forensically identify

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Speaker 1: their movement. Oh wow, So this makes one try to

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Speaker 1: imagine like lawne order microbiology. Yes, surveillance biotech. But to

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Speaker 1: come back to to Rob Dunn's example about Corina bacteria

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Speaker 1: in homes, especially where males live. You you had an

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about that. Yeah, he brings up a very

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Speaker 1: curious case of an interior environment intier home that had

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Speaker 1: a predominantly certainly at the time of the study, had

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Speaker 1: a predominantly male um population. And that is the international

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Speaker 1: Space Station. So this was basically there was a study

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Speaker 1: of the micro buyouta one finds inside the I S S.

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Speaker 1: This was conducted in two thousand thirteen by Jonathan I. Sen,

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Speaker 1: a microbiologist at U C. Davis. So the the I

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Speaker 1: S S, done rights, is very much like a house

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Speaker 1: on Earth. Quote, in nearly every way, the bacteria of

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Speaker 1: the I S S are the sorts of bacteria we

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Speaker 1: would expect in a house on Earth if all the

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Speaker 1: environmental influences were removed. I S S is what you

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Speaker 1: get when you scrub and scrub and close the windows,

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Speaker 1: doors and hatches. So the I S S might be

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Speaker 1: kind of like a very well scrub department in a

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Speaker 1: high rise in a big city. Yeah, I mean there's

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Speaker 1: there's no outside to get inside, right, UM mean immediately,

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Speaker 1: so obviously, um stuff can be brought up. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: Done also points out that in this study of ISS microbes, quote,

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Speaker 1: everything was everywhere, the interior was just coded in human

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Speaker 1: bacteria and nothing from outside was getting in. Obviously. He

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Speaker 1: points out that in a small traditional home made out

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Speaker 1: of mud and leaves, which would have been you know,

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Speaker 1: the normal for the vast uh, you know, the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of human existence. Everything would be everywhere as well,

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Speaker 1: but environmental microbes would be everywhere. What's outside would be inside.

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Speaker 1: But for the I s s there there is no outside. Really,

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Speaker 1: it is a you know, this sterile environment that is

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Speaker 1: then inhabited by human beings, certainly, but then inhabited populated

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Speaker 1: by human microbes. Right, So, so environmentally sterile, but heavily

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Speaker 1: colonized by what the humans bring with them, right, He writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: if you scrub and scrub your home, this is what

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Speaker 1: you may achieve too. It is not unlike what we

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Speaker 1: see in some apartment in Manhattan. And as we and

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Speaker 1: others have begun to study such apartments, we have found

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Speaker 1: a problem. The problem is not what is present, but

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Speaker 1: instead what is absent. The problem has to do with

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Speaker 1: what happens when we create homes devoid of nearly all

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Speaker 1: biodiversity except that which falls from us, and then for

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Speaker 1: twenty three hours of the day we don't go outside.

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Speaker 1: So they're kind of getting high on our own supply here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's exactly. I mean, it's we're in

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Speaker 1: these interior worlds. We're not we're actually going to great

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Speaker 1: pains and many times or just by the virtue of

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Speaker 1: the shape of our cities, in the shape of our lives.

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Speaker 1: We're not bringing anything in or're ringing in as little

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Speaker 1: as as possible, and except for everything that just sheds

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Speaker 1: off of us. This kind of like constant um um,

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Speaker 1: you know, fog of detritus that we're leaving in our wake. Now,

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Speaker 1: this isn't to say there aren't some really interesting things

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Speaker 1: living in the average human home. In his book, Done discusses,

430
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: for instance, the thermophilic bacteria thermo aquaticus, which normally thrives

431
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: in hot springs and geyser's uh, you know, kind of

432
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: a you know, a specialist in that regard, but you

433
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: can pretty much rely on the fact that you can

434
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: find it in your hot water heat a part of

435
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: your artificial environment that recreates environmental conditions that it finds favorable. Yeah,

436
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: Anthes discusses the research on shower heads. Apparently there tends

437
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: to be a lot of bacteria living in biofilms. And

438
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: biofilms are you know, these mats that microbes make when

439
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: they gather in big concentrations. For example, the dental plaque

440
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: on your teeth is a biofilm. These tend to form

441
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: on shower heads in our showers. We don't know exactly why,

442
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: but maybe because you know, hey, it's the shower, doesn't

443
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: it just get cleaned by itself? Like, do I really

444
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: need to clean it? Uh? It is clean, it's water

445
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: coming out of it, exactly. It's kind of the logic

446
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: that's like, why would I ever need to wash my

447
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: bath towel holes? You know, they only canter you when

448
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm at my cleanest um. But Anthus quotes Noah Noah Fear,

449
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: explaining that when hot water suddenly starts shooting out of

450
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: the shower head where these films are perched, it creates

451
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: this kind of mist and spray that carries bacteria with it,

452
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: and then of course, standing there under the spray in

453
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: the shower, we ingest that spray, We breathe it right in.

454
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: And Fierra says, quote, I think it's a really important

455
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: mechanism by which we're exposed to bacteria. Which, okay, so

456
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: you might be thinking again like, oh my god, my

457
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: shower head. You're filled with horror, But it's not necessarily

458
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: a bad thing. Again, like a lot of our exposure

459
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: to microbes is either neutral or beneficial, though of course

460
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: not all of it. Yeah, the biofilms in your shower

461
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,479
Speaker 1: head contain mostly harmless bacteria, but it but it. Interestingly enough,

462
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: it includes non tuberculosis micro bacteria, which are relatives of

463
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: leprosy into bercua losis um. The interesting thing here is

464
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: that their chlorine tolerant. So while the chlorine in them,

465
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: like a major metropolitan water system, kills a lot of

466
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: the micro organisms that it might otherwise be found there,

467
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't hurt these guys and actually creates room for

468
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: them to grow and to thrive. So there are otherwise

469
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: quite rare and say, well water, Uh, these are I

470
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 1: think I read that these biofilms are typically found in general,

471
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: are found in swamps, totally adapted to altering between wet

472
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: and dry conditions, much like your shower head. Um. But yeah,

473
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: in the natural world, they're just gonna have their their

474
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: niche to occupy. But we've created an artificial environment where

475
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: they have room to just really grow and thrive and

476
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: then of course rain down upon us. And there could

477
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: be health implications about those microbacterial films. We don't know

478
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: for sure, but there's a there's a possibility. Anthis talks

479
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: about she writes quote. In fact, Fear and Done discovered

480
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: that showerheads harboring potentially dangerous strains of micro bacteria clustered

481
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: in the same regions mentioning Hawaii, southern California, Florida in

482
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic that are known to be hot spots

483
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: for micro bacterial related respiratory infections. So the question is,

484
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: are people getting these infections from their shower heads. Fear

485
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: suspects that might be the case, but that doesn't necessarily

486
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: mean your shower head is making you six. Some micro bacteria,

487
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: when inhaled, are are not harmful. They might even strengthen

488
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: your immune system. Now Done points out that that we've

489
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: been studying microbiota in our homes actually since the earliest

490
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: days of microbiology. Uh. You have this individual by the

491
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: name of Anthony van Lewenhoek who lived sixty two through

492
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: seventeen twenty three, and he's often called just the father

493
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: of microbiology and and weirdly enough, he's possibly the model

494
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: for two different Vermeer paintings. I don't know if you've

495
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: read about this. I haven't. Yeah, um, but courage listeners

496
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: to look it up. It's pretty fascinating. Like basically he

497
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: knew Vermeer and may have posed for these paintings, but

498
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: he's the first individual known to have engaged in this

499
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: sort of study. He charted the microbial populations of his

500
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: own house, of his own body, and also some neighbors

501
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: homes and bodies. Um with permission, I believe. But but

502
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: after his death, no one really bothered with the sort

503
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: of study again until we realized later that some of

504
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: the microbes we encountered could make us sick. And so

505
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: it's really it's it's really getting into modern times here

506
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: where we're finally uh, taking a close look at our

507
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: household microbial environment, with researchers like done playing a key role. Um.

508
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: Here's another great quote where he's just talking about, you know,

509
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: undertaking this this project and what they expected to find.

510
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: He says, quote, we expected to find hundreds of species. Instead,

511
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: we discovered, depending on just how you do the math,

512
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: upward of two hundred thousand species. Many of these species

513
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: are microscopic, but others are larger and yet nonetheless overlooked.

514
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: Breathe in inhale deeply. With each breath, you bring in

515
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: oxygen deep into the alveoli of your lungs along with

516
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: hundreds or thousands of species. Sit down. Each place you sit,

517
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: you are surrounded by a floating, leaping, crawling circus of

518
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: thousands of species. We are never home alone WOA. And

519
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: this is on top of tins and perhaps hundreds of

520
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: different types of vertebrates as well as various plants. And

521
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: then there are the arthropods and the fun guys. Something

522
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: like forty thousand species of fungi that can be found

523
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: in the home um. But the bacteria are just really

524
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: the crazy Party points out that more species of bacteria

525
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: have been found in human homes than there are species

526
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: of birds and mammals on Earth. Yeah. This type of

527
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: research is also explored in in Anthesis book, where there's

528
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: a section where she talks about how Done and Fear

529
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: followed up on their initial research who you know, asking

530
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: people to take the swabs from the different parts of

531
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: their home to find out what was there. They decided

532
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: to do with like a bigger, deeper study of the

533
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: microbes found specifically along the trim of interior doorways. And

534
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: they picked this area because nobody ever cleans it, so dusty,

535
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, collects for years maybe without being sterilized. Then

536
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: this would give you potentially a fuller inventory, and they

537
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: just found enormous numbers of bacteria. In anthesis book, the

538
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: number is over a hundred and sixteen thousand species of bacteria,

539
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: more than sixty three thousand species of fungi. And the

540
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: count of fungi species was especially interesting to them because

541
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: they found more numbers of species of fungi in these

542
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: samples around doorway trims than there are named species of

543
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: fungi in all of North America, So it means that

544
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: inside our houses, it's it's very likely that there are

545
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: species of fungus that have not yet been discovered or

546
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: cataloged by science. And they also found that that for

547
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: some of these samples, there was more uh fungi diversity

548
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: inside the house than outside the house, which which reminds

549
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: me of the scene in Primer where they don't realize

550
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: they've created a time machine yet and they think that

551
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: that the box that they put together as an incubator

552
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: for mold oh I forgot about that detail that a

553
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: while since have seen that one and fungi in our

554
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: homes are somewhat different than bacteria in our homes, so

555
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: that they have a different different vectors in different ways

556
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: of living Anthests discusses how the bacteria in our houses

557
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: they mostly come from us and from the other creatures

558
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: that live with us, like dogs, and we'll get into

559
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: more on that in a bit, but the fun guy

560
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: are not as populous on and in our own bodies.

561
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: They tend to come more from the environment outside. And

562
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: what kind of fungi are found within a home is

563
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: largely determined by where the home is regionally, in the

564
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: climate around the home, what kind of fungi are prevalent

565
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: in the exterior environment. But there are other factors that

566
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: have an effect as well. And there's one that I

567
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: found very interesting. It was what the house is made of.

568
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: And she quotes from Done saying it's kind of a

569
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: three pigs thing. A stone house feeds different fungi from

570
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: a woodhouse from a mudhouse, because unlike the bacteria, they're

571
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: eating the house. So it's like, what have you put

572
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: out on the buffet for them? Yeah, I mean again,

573
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: it comes down to the fact that our home is

574
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: not this um, this alien thing, you know, it is

575
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: made out of the natural world, and therefore there are

576
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: things that want to eat it, to eat those materials

577
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: that made up your home. Uh, so yeah, it's it's

578
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: easy to overlook that, but yeah, it makes perfect sense.

579
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: So obviously, I'm sure some people, despite our our warnings

580
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: early on, are like, Okay, I'm just getting the bleach.

581
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sterilize my entire living space. Maybe now we

582
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: should explain why that that might not be a good idea. Yeah,

583
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: that might be your inclination. And and really it kind

584
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: of falls in line with what advertising has has been

585
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: has been telling us for years. You know, the sort

586
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: of world that we grew up in, where it's like

587
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: we got to disinfect the house, you gotta keep the

588
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: house clean, as if there is this absolute cleanliness, this

589
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: nobiotic um aspect of our homes. But but this way

590
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: of thinking is essentially treats our homes again like some

591
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: sort of lifeless, nobiotic box, hermetically sealed from the outside,

592
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: an impervious to occupation by anything but the presumably nobiotic

593
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: creatures living inside it. But all of this, you know,

594
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: nothing could be further from the truth, because nature of

595
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: horrors of vacuum and your home will come to harbor

596
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: a robust ecosystem. But our actions and our choices have

597
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: an effect on that ecosystem as we saw with the

598
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: shower head and the and the water heater or example above.

599
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: You may keep certain things out, but that just means

600
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: there's more room for other things to make themselves at home.

601
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: All right, well we need to take a second break,

602
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: but we will be right back with more. Alright, we're back.

603
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: So raining anti microbial death down on your apartment or

604
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: house is is also crazy, given that, as Done and

605
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: Sebastian Tilch discussed in a two thousand nineteen study published

606
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: in Nature Ecology and Evolution, only a relatively small proportion

607
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: of the micro organisms in our environment actually cause disease.

608
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that insects and other arthur pods,

609
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: especially spiders that live in in the home, are important

610
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: actors in the ecosystem, as they can exterminate mosquitoes, bedbugs, cockroaches,

611
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: and house flies, all of which actually can transmit diseases.

612
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: And it's not a universal thing around the world that

613
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: people see a spider in their house and say, oh,

614
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: we've got to kill that. Like, some cultures are much

615
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: more tolerant of spiders with the knowledge that they're performing

616
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: this important cleaning service. Yeah, I I personally like seeing

617
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: the spider in the bathroom every day. You know it's

618
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: it's a friend. You know that it's it's he or

619
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: she is working to to to help make this bathroom

620
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: a better environment. In that paper by Done and Tilt Uh,

621
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: the authors agree that there there's simply no need to

622
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: weigh devastating war against all of these organisms. But more

623
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: to the point, a lot more work is needed to

624
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: determine just what sorts of environments are more susceptible to

625
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: the bad stuff. Another interesting wrinkle in all of this

626
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: is that and and this is one Done discusses in

627
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: his book, is exactly what household dogs reveal about the

628
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: contrast between the exterior ecosystem and our interior worlds. Dogs

629
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: are amazing at bringing you filth that I think about

630
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: this with my dog every day. It's like every single

631
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: day he's like, let me nourish your microbiome. Well, I

632
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: think ultimately the way to look at it is the

633
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: dog is not just bringing filth in. The dog is

634
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: nurturing your filth. Like there's going to be filth. If

635
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: you wish to categorize the microbial world as filth. Uh,

636
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: there's no escaping it. Um. So the dog is ultimately

637
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: just bringing something to the equation. So for a lot

638
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: of us, we tend to leave our our artificial interial world,

639
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: you know, again, hop into another one that happens to

640
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: have wheels, travel doors, to work, come back, etcetera. A

641
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: lot of us do get out into the natural world,

642
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: but there are plenty of us that don't do it

643
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. If you have pets, indoor only

644
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: varieties contribute to the microbial stew that is your home.

645
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: But there's no beating a dog for a bridge between

646
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: inner and outer ecosystems. There's also no beating a dog.

647
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: Just I don't want to encourage anybody, but for starters,

648
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: your dog is likely drawing you out into the outside environment. Uh.

649
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna probably hopefully you're gonna take your

650
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: dog on walks, You're gonna, you know, go out into

651
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: the world with it. But at the very least, that

652
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: dog is going out to get all up in the

653
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: natural world and then bring some of it back home. This,

654
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: this has been your experience with his a dog owner. Correct, absolutely, Now, Now,

655
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: they're certainly harmful possibilities here, such as if your dog

656
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: were to bring back fleas or ticks, And this has

657
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: always been an issue with ancient Egyptian dog remains showing

658
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: signs of brown dog ticks, which certainly do carry pathogens,

659
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: but there's also a plethora of harmless effects and a

660
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: seemingly beneficial um impact as well. Done points out that

661
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 1: by looking at household microbes alone, first of all, one

662
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: can tell if there's a dog in the house at

663
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: all of the time. Uh. The dog just leaves a

664
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: microbial footprint that's hard to miss. But be honest, it's

665
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: hard to tell at this point what specific effects dogs

666
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: and cats have on the inner and microbial environment, because

667
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot of complexity there. But Done says that

668
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: we certainly see, especially in urban environments with dogs, that

669
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: the children in those households are less prone to allergy

670
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: and asthma. So the dogs might actually be a vehicle

671
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: connecting the children to nature, and just the dirt on

672
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: their paws, for instance, might be enough uh to essentially

673
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: provide some sort of UH replacement for spending time in

674
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: nature and in the natural microbial environment. Yeah. This is

675
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: the connection to what used to be known as the

676
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: hygiene hypothesis, though Anthes notes that some researchers have pointed

677
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: out that this name can be kind of misleading because

678
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: the point of the hygiene hypothesis is not that you like,

679
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: shouldn't wash your hands. Uh, It's more about having an

680
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: exposure to a diverse array of microbiota early in life can,

681
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: if this hypothesis is correct, help help strengthen your immune

682
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: system in various ways and make you less prone to say,

683
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: allergies and asthma and things like that. More recently, people

684
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: have tried to to recoin this thing not as the

685
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: hygiene hypothesis, but as the old friends hypothesis, like the

686
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: the natural microbial world is an old friend, right, that

687
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: we should reacquaint ourselves with, and that it's good to

688
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: get acquainted with early in life. Uh, not necessarily that

689
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: you like, shouldn't wash your hands or shouldn't wipe down

690
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: the counter after you've been slicing chicken or something. Yeah.

691
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: Now this is primarily with dogs. With with cats there

692
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: seems to be far less of a connection. Uh. And

693
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: also it's noted that in rural environments, uh, we see

694
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: less evidence of this, and the ideas that individuals in

695
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: a rural environment are probably getting more exposure to the

696
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: outside of the natural world in general. So the dog

697
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: isn't going to make that much of a difference. The

698
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 1: dog is less of a tap of hot and cold

699
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: running exterior microbes. And I think all of that helps

700
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: to underline, you know, our desire and our and indeed

701
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: our need to get out of the house and interact

702
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: with nature on a regular basis. Uh Done says that

703
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: that one day we might be able to manage our

704
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: interior microbiota in a way that will help ensure that

705
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: we're healthy and uh and that you know, everything's in balance,

706
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: But for now that's just not the case. We just

707
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: we don't understand and enough if we haven't explored uh

708
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: the interior world enough to know exactly what we're dealing with.

709
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: And again like what kind of environments are are more

710
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: prone to be occupied by the bad stuff versus the

711
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: the the beneficial stuff or the stuff that is just

712
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: uh there and part of the world we live in.

713
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: Though I think it is clear that built environments do

714
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: make a difference, that we we don't fully understand exactly

715
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: what all the causal relationships are yet, but there have

716
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: definitely been measured differences that show, for example, where rooms

717
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: are placed and what their relationships to other rooms, where

718
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: different things happen. Uh, that that does affect what kinds

719
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: of microbiota we find in those rooms. Just the example

720
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: of having open windows that open to the outside world

721
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: as opposed to having a room that's all closed off

722
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: to the outside world and just ventilated by you know,

723
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: HVAC systems. That makes a difference to what the microbiome

724
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: of the room looks like. Yeah, I mean, I mean

725
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: even if the windows don't open. You know, we've looked

726
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: at studies before, they've looked on the psychological impact of

727
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: just being able to see the outside world, especially in

728
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: hospital environment. Uh. And we do know a few other

729
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: things too, Like one of the things that Anti mentions

730
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: it seems to be a pretty straightforward finding is that

731
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: one good way to encourage healthy ecosystems of microbes within

732
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: the house is basically to keep the house dry. Moisture

733
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: seems to activate a lot of unwanted fungal activity, but

734
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: you can still have a lot of healthy microbes with

735
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: the house that's that's relatively dry. Uh. You know that

736
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: She says that a lot of these experts who are

737
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: looking at this do not recommend using anti microbial agents

738
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: in the house. As you've been talking about. So there

739
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: are a few things we know, but yeah, there's still

740
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: a whole lot more to learn about the interactions between

741
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: our our living space architecture and our home cleaning regimes

742
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. With the microscopic invisible world. Yeah,

743
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I mean, obviously it's going to be

744
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: more of a challenge and damper environments, say like, um,

745
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, a rainforest environment. But I guess there, I

746
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: guess one is tempted to ask the question, well, what

747
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: are the traditional modes of housing? You know, what were

748
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: the were the were the the trial and air developments

749
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: in housing there versus the um that the modern solutions

750
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: that have been brought in from other environments without perhaps

751
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: without really taking full account of the local conditions. Yeah,

752
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: that's an interesting question. I haven't considered that. Yeah, I mean,

753
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. You walk around any given neighborhood, right

754
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: and you you you see these trends and homes and

755
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: occasionally you'll see at home that is that it's clearly

756
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: out of place. But it makes you wonder, like, just

757
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: how out of place is it is? The design like

758
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: not suited for the you know, the the energy consumption

759
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: rates or the or or just the like the the

760
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: the level of the amount of sun you get in

761
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: a given part of the world, that sort of thing. Uh,

762
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the things we can

763
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: take from this episode is that homes are are far

764
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: more complicated. They're not just the the space we in

765
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: which we live, you know, a container for our lives.

766
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: Like they they're going to shape who we are on

767
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: a microbial level, on a symbolic level, Um, it's uh,

768
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's mind blowing stuff, definitely. And

769
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: then sometimes you find yourself, you know, during a pandemic,

770
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: spending a lot of time in your closet recording podcasts

771
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: in your laundry room. Yeah, rooms that were never designed

772
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: or intended for this kind of lengthy habitation. Luckily, my

773
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: my closet here does have an air event in it um,

774
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: which has been a lifesaver. I don't think my laundry

775
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: room does sing around for it. I have. I've had

776
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: a few sweaty times in here. Well, it's this good

777
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: news for when the winter sets in, right for both

778
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: of us, because I think this is gonna be pretty

779
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: cozy in here. And if you get cold in the

780
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: laundry room, you can always just turn on the dryer, right,

781
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm really trying to get it's set up so that

782
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: I can record from a different room. I'm trying to

783
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: make a different room in the house less echoy, so

784
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: I can get good sound and not have to hunch

785
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: over next to the washing machine. I am digging an

786
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: earthen pit in my backyard, which I am told will

787
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: have a really good uh sound installation. So we'll see

788
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: how that goes. Mammoth Bones Studio. All right, Well, there

789
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: you have it. Hopefully this provides some some food for thought. Again,

790
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: we're not trying to encourage anybody to go on a

791
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: h any kind of a killing spree in their house

792
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: concerning microbes or Arthur pods or anything like that. Uh,

793
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: just we thought that as we're spending more time looking

794
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: at our homes and thinking about getting out of nature,

795
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: we should really look at what the in the relationship

796
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: between those two environments actually is. In the meantime, if

797
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: you like to check out other episodes of Stuff to

798
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: Blow your mind, well you can find us wherever you

799
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: get your podcast and wherever that happens to be. Just

800
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: make sure you rate, review and subscribe, and if you

801
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: get in touch with us. I mean, clearly, we'd love

802
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on this episode. How do you

803
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: relate to the content here, How does it change or

804
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: back up your own thoughts and observations concerning your interior

805
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: environment or the external world. Huge thanks as always to

806
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would

807
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

808
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

809
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: the future, just to say hi, you can email us

810
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: at contact that Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

811
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio.

812
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: For more podcasts to my heart Radio, use the iHeart

813
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your

814
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: favorite shows.