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Speaker 1: Reveals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's. Rolling Stone recently proclaimed What's Going On by

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gay the greatest album of all time. So today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna look at the complicated relationship between Marvin and

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Speaker 1: Motown boss Barry Gordon. And they battled over the decision

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Speaker 1: to release that record and also many other records and

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Speaker 1: many other things. They were always at each other's throats

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Speaker 1: over the years that Marvin was on the label. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, the story about a visionary artist battling his

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Speaker 1: record label for creative control is a tale as old

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Speaker 1: as the music business. But this really is a version

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Speaker 1: of that story told on the grandest scale because the

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Speaker 1: stakes are so high. I mean, on one hand, you

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Speaker 1: have a man who prided himself on essentially building the

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Speaker 1: pop music factory of all time in Motown, in which

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Speaker 1: he was the ultimate autour who picked the singers, the songs,

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Speaker 1: and the musicians. And on the other hand, you have

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Speaker 1: this visionary, tortured genius who wants to make his own

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Speaker 1: statement about the state of the world and set it

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Speaker 1: to music that will progress beyond the formulas of pop music.

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Speaker 1: It truly is an epic battle. I think it really

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Speaker 1: fascinates me so much about their relationship is that it

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Speaker 1: transcends the artist label brass relationship. Marvin married Barry's sister

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Speaker 1: for reasons that definitely had at least the tinge of

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Speaker 1: Machia Valley and opportunism. So they were literally family, and

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Speaker 1: Marvin looked to him in many ways like a mentor

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Speaker 1: and a father figure. But you know, as we know,

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Speaker 1: Marvin's relationships with his father figures could be combative, and

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Speaker 1: you know, at least this one was more fruitful and

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Speaker 1: way less tragic than his relationship with his actual dad.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, Marvin Gabers

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Speaker 1: is his dad would be a much darker episode. So

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Speaker 1: let's piping away from that and let's look at Marvin

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Speaker 1: Gaye versus Barry Gordy. Let's get into this mess. Marvin

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Speaker 1: Gay was born just outside of Washington, d C. To

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Speaker 1: a very very strict Pentecostal minister, Marvin Gay Senior, who

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Speaker 1: would just brutally beat him as a boy for like

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Speaker 1: minor offenses, and he would say to him, I brought

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Speaker 1: you into this world, I can take you out, and

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Speaker 1: he made good on this promise in I mean, it

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Speaker 1: is just beyond tragic. I mean, Marvin's own mother admitted

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Speaker 1: that Marvin Gay Senior never really wanted him and questioned

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Speaker 1: whether he even ever loved his son. So relations between

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Speaker 1: them were not great, and they got worse when Marvin

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Speaker 1: Senior lost his job many jobs actually, and sort of

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Speaker 1: descended into alcoholism throughout Marvin's childhood. So the only time

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Speaker 1: there was really any harmony between the pair was when

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Speaker 1: they sang together at the local church. Yeah. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't think this can be overstated that Marvin Gay's dad

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Speaker 1: was a total monster. I mean I saw this one

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Speaker 1: documentary in which Marvin's sister tells this story about how

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Speaker 1: their dad would rattle the buckle on his belt before

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Speaker 1: he beat his children, you know, just to like psychologically

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Speaker 1: terrorize them. I mean, this is like he's like the

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Speaker 1: guy in Saw hunting. Yeah, it's awful, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and clearly that would have an emotional effect on anyone,

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Speaker 1: but it really impacted Marvin Gaye. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: see that as this episode unfolds, just the father's son

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Speaker 1: dynamic that he would seek out like throughout his life

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Speaker 1: and his relationships. You know, you know, Marvin, he was

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Speaker 1: like this free spirited kid. He was an artist. He

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Speaker 1: was rebellious, and his father would tell him, You're not mine,

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Speaker 1: you have the devil in you. I mean, just just

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Speaker 1: just awful treatment from his father, and it really divided

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Speaker 1: him in half to I mean, David Ritz wrote this

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Speaker 1: incredible biography about Marvin called Divided Soul that really sums

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Speaker 1: it up. I mean it really he just felt cut

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Speaker 1: in half between you know, the church that he grew

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Speaker 1: up in and the sort of the sensual pleasures of

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Speaker 1: the secular world. And yeah, he was definitely he was

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Speaker 1: a tortured man. And it really starts here in his

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Speaker 1: childhood with his dad, and his dad kicked him out regularly,

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Speaker 1: and I guess finally when he got kicked out one

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Speaker 1: too many times, Marvin joined the Air Force, and he

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Speaker 1: quickly realized that being in the military was even more

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Speaker 1: oppressive and limit with his dad. So he apparently faked

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Speaker 1: the mental illness to secure a discharge and uh to

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Speaker 1: make money to make rent, he he sang and played

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Speaker 1: drums in local bands, and he was gigging as a

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Speaker 1: backing singer for people like Chuck Barry and a guy

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Speaker 1: named Harvey Fuqua, and he made his first recordings with

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Speaker 1: Harvey in a group called Harvey in the Moon Glows,

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Speaker 1: and they're on YouTube. There's a song called Mama Lucci,

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Speaker 1: which I think is Marvin's first appearance on record as

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Speaker 1: a singer, as a lead singer, and it's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: Definitely check it out. So Marvin moves to Detroit with

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Speaker 1: Fuqua after Harvey and the moon Glows split in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty and he's gigging around town a sort of a

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Speaker 1: working session musician, and he's booked to play a gig

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Speaker 1: at the Motown Records company Christmas party, and that brought

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Speaker 1: him in contact with Barry Gordy, who was apparently so

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Speaker 1: impressed that he basically decided to sign him on the spot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Barry Gordy was only ten years older

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Speaker 1: than Marvin Gay, which isn't that great of an age difference,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like from the beginning he had this

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Speaker 1: almost like patriarchal role in Marvin Gay's life, and I

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Speaker 1: think it has a lot to it was just the

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Speaker 1: natural authority that Barry Gordy had. I mean, Gordy to

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Speaker 1: me is that archetype of like the manifest destiny great American,

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Speaker 1: you know that we we've seen throughout history. He's like

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Speaker 1: the Daniel Plain view of soul. You know, like he's

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Speaker 1: going out into the desert and he's gonna find oil

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Speaker 1: and he's going to become a millionaire. Only he's in

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Speaker 1: the desert of Detroit, and it's gonna be with music.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at his early life, there's the

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Speaker 1: series of formative events that you can see really form

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Speaker 1: his outlook as an artist, because he was an artist,

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Speaker 1: he was a songwriter, and also as a businessman. Like

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Speaker 1: for instance, when he was a kid, he was selling

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Speaker 1: newspapers in the black part of town. It was a

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Speaker 1: black newspaper, and he had the idea one day that

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Speaker 1: he was going to go into the white neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: sell this newspaper. And he had tremendous success. He made

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Speaker 1: twice as much money as he normally would. And the

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Speaker 1: next day he decided, oh, I'm gonna bring my friend

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Speaker 1: with me, and you know, because I want him to

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Speaker 1: share my good fortune. And he found that when there

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Speaker 1: were two black kids selling newspapers in the white neighborhood

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Speaker 1: that he didn't make any money at all. And the

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Speaker 1: lesson that he learned there was that one black kid

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Speaker 1: is charming to white people, and two black kids can

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Speaker 1: be frightening or off putting. So that's one lesson that

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Speaker 1: he learns. Another lesson that he learns is that when

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Speaker 1: he's a little bit older, he loves music and he

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Speaker 1: decides he's going to open a record shop, and he's

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Speaker 1: a huge jazz fan, so he decides that he's going

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Speaker 1: to focus on selling jazz records. But he finds that

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Speaker 1: people really don't want to buy jazz records. They want

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Speaker 1: to buy pop and R and B records, So his

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Speaker 1: record store goes out of business. So that's another lesson

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Speaker 1: that he learns. And then after his record store goes

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Speaker 1: out of business, he has to get a job, so

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Speaker 1: he goes to the auto plant and he's working on

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Speaker 1: the assembly line, and there he can observe this idea,

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Speaker 1: you know, cooked up by Henry Ford about the assembly line.

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Speaker 1: This is a way that you can efficiently and relatively

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Speaker 1: cheaply turn out a lot of high quality product and

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money in the process. So from

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Speaker 1: these lessons, we can see from selling newspapers he learned

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Speaker 1: something about the prejudices of white audiences. From the uh experience,

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Speaker 1: at the record store, he learns the taste of pop audiences,

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Speaker 1: and at the Rotto Plant he basically learns the way

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Speaker 1: that he's going to be operating as the head of motown,

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Speaker 1: Like he's going to operate motown in the same way

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Speaker 1: that Henry Ford built cars. We're going to turn things

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Speaker 1: out according to a formula, you know, dictated by this

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Speaker 1: sort of mastermind businessman, and we're gonna become rich in

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Speaker 1: the process. It's also important to note too that kid

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Speaker 1: Barry was a boxer too, so you have all this

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Speaker 1: business acumen wrapped up in this like pugnacious, like bantam

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Speaker 1: guy too, so that that I feel like the boxing

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Speaker 1: element also college his approach to you know, how he

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Speaker 1: approaches business deals too. What I mentioned, You know that

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Speaker 1: he was a songwriter, and one of his most famous

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Speaker 1: songs that he wrote early in his career is the

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Speaker 1: song Money, which was a hit for Barrett Strong, I believe,

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Speaker 1: and then the Beatles covered it and it's just become

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Speaker 1: a soul standard. But you just think of the course

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Speaker 1: of that song, you know, like money is what I want,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's an irony to that. There's, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of an ironic message about America and capitalism in that.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like in a way that you could

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Speaker 1: just take that base value in terms of like Berry

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Speaker 1: Gordon's belief, like he wanted to be rich and he

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Speaker 1: had the vision to make it happen, and Marvin admired

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Speaker 1: him so much. Barry became a huge role model in

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Speaker 1: his life, you know, especially after he rejected his own father. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, Gay was really influenced by strong man. I

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Speaker 1: mean there was managers, mentors, and later in life, professional

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Speaker 1: athletes and uh. He would tell his biographer David Ritz later,

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Speaker 1: I respected Barry for his guts, but even in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: I knew we were destined to clash. But he was

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Speaker 1: so impressed with Berry's ability to make money date beautiful women.

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Speaker 1: He just said, he would say, this cat was serious.

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Speaker 1: So it was this push and pull from the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: much like his own dad. And uh, and Barry, as

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Speaker 1: you said, was always looking out for number one. And

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Speaker 1: that's something that I think Marvin also really admired about him,

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Speaker 1: but also when it came to their personal relationship, it

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Speaker 1: pissed them all. I think he had a begrudging acceptance

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Speaker 1: of of Barry's ability to control him, because, I mean,

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Speaker 1: first of all, Barry Gordy is one of the like

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Speaker 1: most truly terrifying autocrats in music history. I mean, when

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Speaker 1: you signed to Motown, Barry Gordy truly did own you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, the singers didn't choose what

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Speaker 1: to sing. You were told what to sing by Gordy

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Speaker 1: and his producers. And if you even if he wrote

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Speaker 1: songs from Motown like like Marvin did, and Stevie Wonder

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Speaker 1: and Smokey and those guys would also do. Barry had

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Speaker 1: the publishing wrapped up from the very beginning too, And

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, royalty rates were really substandard and song

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Speaker 1: credits were often improperly assigned. So it's really funny to

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Speaker 1: think that actually the business stuff wasn't usually what Marvin

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Speaker 1: and Barry feuded about. I think Marvin actually sort of

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Speaker 1: in a way, was impressed that Barry was able to

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Speaker 1: get that level of control. But Marvin, as we've learned

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Speaker 1: with his dad, doesn't want to be controlled. Ever, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how much we want to talk about this

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Speaker 1: in this episode. But there's also the thing with Marvin

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Speaker 1: Gay's dad about him dressing up in women's clothing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and like how that was something that Marvin Gay had

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Speaker 1: a lot of angst over. That's something that in his

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Speaker 1: own life drove him to act out in these sort

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Speaker 1: of displays of machismo like throughout his life because he

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Speaker 1: was frankly just like scared that what his dad did

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Speaker 1: is something that he would end up doing in his

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Speaker 1: own life. And that's you know, obviously speaking to the

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Speaker 1: prejudices at the time, you know, like about the sort

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Speaker 1: of discomfort with you know, I guess exploring gender identity

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Speaker 1: and all that. But I wondered to what degree Marvin

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Speaker 1: Gay was attracted to Barry Gordy, because Barry Gordy was

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Speaker 1: more of a macho guy. He like you said, he

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Speaker 1: was this boxer, he was like, you know, very aggressive

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Speaker 1: in business. He was dating all these beautiful women. It

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Speaker 1: seems like, in a way, Barry Gordy could be that

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Speaker 1: sort of idealized macho dad that he didn't have in

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Speaker 1: his real family. Yeah, that's a really interesting way of

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Speaker 1: looking at I mean, Marvin even he changed his own name.

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Speaker 1: He added an E to his name because he was

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Speaker 1: worried people were going to pick on him for being

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Speaker 1: in a Marvin Gay. So it was definitely something that

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Speaker 1: really haunted him throughout his life. You're right, But getting

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Speaker 1: back to this issue of control, I mean that is

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Speaker 1: the thing that ends up really animating the relationship between

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gay and Barry Gordy, because, like you said, on

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Speaker 1: some level, the sort of alpha maleness of Barry Gordy,

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Speaker 1: I think was something that Marvin Gay responded to positively.

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Speaker 1: And it in still a lot of respect that he

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Speaker 1: had for that head of Motown because Barry Gordy was

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Speaker 1: like that. But Marvin Gay also again was this rebellious person.

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Speaker 1: And I think because Barry Gordy's control extended into to

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Speaker 1: the art part of it. You know, it wasn't just

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Speaker 1: the business part. It was also controlling the kind of

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Speaker 1: music that his artists was doing. Yeah, I think that

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Speaker 1: was something that obviously became like a huge issue in

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Speaker 1: their relationship. You know, Marvin Gay once said that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I felt Barry was the pilot and I was the plane.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think he said that in a positive way,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't think he really liked feeling that way. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and you see this like throughout the sixties years before

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Speaker 1: what's going on that like Marvin Gay is already sort

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Speaker 1: of bristling at the control that Barry Gordy is trying

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Speaker 1: to put on him. From Berry Gordy's perspective, I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting that like Marvin Gay for a long

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Speaker 1: time was like not the biggest star on Motown. You know,

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Speaker 1: the artists that were more tightly controlled by Barry Gordy,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Supremes, Temptations, the Four Tops, they were

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Speaker 1: much bigger in the sixties and Marvin Gay was and

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Speaker 1: it kind of took Marvin a while, like to ramp up.

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Speaker 1: Marvin wanted to basically be the black Sinatra when he

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Speaker 1: wanted to follow in that King Cole's footsteps and be

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Speaker 1: this kind of middle of the road balladeer type figure,

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Speaker 1: which you know, and it was Embarry just had visions

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Speaker 1: in his head of when he tried to make a

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Speaker 1: highbrow jazz record store that no one wanted to listen to.

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Speaker 1: He said, no, this isn't what people want. They want

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Speaker 1: to dance, they want R and B do this, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I think for the first couple album. I

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Speaker 1: think his first album was something called what was it like,

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Speaker 1: the Soulful Sounds of Marvin Soulful Moods of Marvin Gay,

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Speaker 1: I think, and it was all like old you know,

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Speaker 1: American songbook type stuff like My Funny Valentine and Love

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Speaker 1: for Sale and Witchcraft and yeah. They went back and

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Speaker 1: forth on that for a long time, trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: you know, how to how to package him, and Marvin

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be packaged. I mean, look, in these conflicts,

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Speaker 1: I'm always on the side of the artist, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think artists should be free to pursue their muse

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Speaker 1: and do what they want to do. But I feel

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Speaker 1: like in terms of the actual product, like Barry Gordy

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Speaker 1: was maybe right at least in the early years, because

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Speaker 1: I Marvin Ga is an incredible singer, but like turning

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Speaker 1: him into this sort of like Black Sinatra type that

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Speaker 1: Marvin gave himself wanted to be, I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that that music just seems a little snoozy to me.

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Speaker 1: Like like when he starts making more prototypical sounding motown

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Speaker 1: records like in the sixties, that's when he starts getting

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Speaker 1: really exciting. Oh yeah, absolutely, And I think I think

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Speaker 1: we also got to talk about two is the fact

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned this in the intro to Their relationship

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Speaker 1: is complicated even further by the fact that Marvin is

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Speaker 1: now part of his Barry's family when he starts dating

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Speaker 1: and ultimately marrying Barry's sister Anna, and Anna is seventeen

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Speaker 1: years Marvin's senior. And uh, it's the whole thing just

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Speaker 1: has shades not only of like Machia Valley, but also

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Speaker 1: a little edible too, because I guess a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have said that Anna reminded them of Marvin's own

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Speaker 1: mother so's and especially if Barry is his sort of

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Speaker 1: father figure. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to impact

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Speaker 1: their psychologically. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gay was pretty screwed up sexually. I mean, let's

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Speaker 1: let's just you know, again, we we're not gonna delve

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Speaker 1: too deep into that, but I think just as a

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Speaker 1: general statement, that's I think I feel pretty confident in

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Speaker 1: declaring that. Yeah, no, I I agree, And uh, and

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Speaker 1: their relationship was really troubled too, I mean, he would

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Speaker 1: there were really wonderful patches. He wrote the song Pride

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Speaker 1: and Joy for her and and Anub more of other

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Speaker 1: songs too, but they were also was it was rife

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Speaker 1: with They would get physically violent with each other at times,

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Speaker 1: and things got even more strange when, um, I think

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Speaker 1: another of I think Barry's teenage niece became pregnant and

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Speaker 1: Marvin and Anna adopted the baby as their own to

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Speaker 1: sort of so people wouldn't talk that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And I guess even Anna like wore like a fake

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Speaker 1: bump for a time too. So it added this other

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Speaker 1: level of like intrigue in their family where they had

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Speaker 1: this son who wasn't really their son, and it was

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Speaker 1: this big family secret. So just layers upon ladies, and

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Speaker 1: then you have all the business stuff on top of that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Marvin's relationship with Barry gets increasingly intense and

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Speaker 1: complex as the sixties progress. All right, hand, we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back with more rivals. So Marvin is now married

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Speaker 1: to Barry Gordy's sister. He's already battling and Berry Gordy

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Speaker 1: about his career direction, what kind of music he wants

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Speaker 1: to do. Marvin Gay doesn't want to be packaged. He

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Speaker 1: wants to do these standards. He wants to do my

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Speaker 1: funny Valentine. He wants to do really music that's already

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Speaker 1: seeming old fashioned by the early sixties. Finally, there's a

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Speaker 1: breakthrough when the writer's at Motown come up with this

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Speaker 1: song called Stubborn kind of Fellow, and it's basically like

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Speaker 1: a subtweet of Marvin Gay, because like, they write this

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Speaker 1: song for Marvin Gay, but it's also saying, like, dude,

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Speaker 1: you're so stubborn man like you, Like you're a great

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Speaker 1: looking guy, you have a tremendous voice, but you're doing

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Speaker 1: these snoozy standards, like we want to turn you into

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Speaker 1: the pop star we know you can be. So they

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Speaker 1: write him this song and it ends up being his breakthrough,

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Speaker 1: and from then on he's on his way. He's going

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Speaker 1: to start becoming the Marvin Gay that we all know

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Speaker 1: and love, right. I mean, you get hit songs like

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Speaker 1: kind of Got a Witness, how sweet it is to

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Speaker 1: be loved by you? Ain't that peculiar? But these all

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Speaker 1: really kind of exacerbate the inherent in her conflict in Marvin,

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Speaker 1: because again it's pushing him into this this secular pop

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Speaker 1: world and he has he still feels uncomfortable there because

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Speaker 1: of his religious upbringing, and he also feels incredibly stifled

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Speaker 1: at this point by Motown's musical assembly lime process. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's complaining that he felt like he was just Barri's

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Speaker 1: puppet and that all the artists were just treated like

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Speaker 1: products and everything was just all focused on sales and money,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they made hits like the car factories

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Speaker 1: in Detroit, you know, I mean it was the same

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Speaker 1: kind of process. They thought it was totally lacking soul.

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Speaker 1: So who begins to fight with Barry sometimes physically. There's

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Speaker 1: some Motown staff members who remember seeing Marvin and Barry

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Speaker 1: like tussling out in front of the Milan. It hits

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Speaker 1: all uh like like just literally like like berries and

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Speaker 1: like boxing with him basically, which is funny because you know,

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Speaker 1: Barry was a boxer. I guess Marvin at that time

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Speaker 1: was like ninety pounds and really just kind of scrawny,

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Speaker 1: so like Barry could definitely take this guy. But it

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Speaker 1: was it was like cool hand luke. Like Marvin didn't

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Speaker 1: know when to just stay down. He kept going for it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you have just all sorts of different

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Speaker 1: Motown staff are saying like, yeah, they were just having

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Speaker 1: a pissing match all the time, Marvin was never going

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Speaker 1: to give in. And um, as the sixties progressed, Marvin

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Speaker 1: starts to get more and more politicized. And this is

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Speaker 1: in the era when Motown makes their artists go to

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Speaker 1: basically a finishing school to learn how to be you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of presentable for for white audiences. Is insane as

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Speaker 1: that sounds, it's the newspaper lesson right there. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's going back to Barry Gordy's childhood. He feels like, well,

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Speaker 1: you have to act a certain way to peel the

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Speaker 1: white audiences. And I mean, I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of truth to that, and you can look at Motown

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Speaker 1: successor Lyon as a testament to I guess that lesson

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Speaker 1: that learned early on in his life. Yeah, and at this,

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Speaker 1: at this sort of finishing school, they taught all the artists,

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Speaker 1: you know, in interviews, don't basically talk about any don't

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Speaker 1: basically talk about current events, and just sort of bland

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Speaker 1: pet pleasantries and that's it. So Marvin starts showing up

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Speaker 1: to interviews with like copies of Malcolm Hex's biography and

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Speaker 1: like sol on Ice and these kind of like very

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Speaker 1: very radicalized books and uh, you know, and Barry sees

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Speaker 1: this and he's not happy, and probably I would say

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Speaker 1: one of the most politically adventurous songs that Motown released

381
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Speaker 1: in in this period was Marvin sang a version of

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Speaker 1: the Dion song Abraham, Martin and John about you know,

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Speaker 1: the assassinations of of Martin, Luther King and um John F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy and then Bobby Kennedy. But to that point, Motown

385
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Speaker 1: really wasn't touching any of that stuff. They were the

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Speaker 1: sound of young America. They were just supposed to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, toe tap and dance songs. So that is

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Speaker 1: another layer ranks that's being laid on top of the

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gayberry Gordy dynamic. There's also gonna be something else

390
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 1: crucial that happens in Marvin Gay's life that ends up

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Speaker 1: just totally destroying him emotionally. And that's the death of

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Speaker 1: Tammy Terrell, which occurs in nineteen seventies. She dies at

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Speaker 1: the age of twenty four from a brain tumor. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Tammy Terrell was like one of those people that, like,

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Speaker 1: if you don't know her name, you know the duets

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Speaker 1: that she's sang with Marvin Gay. I mean, you've got

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Speaker 1: songs like eight No Mountain High Enough, Ain't nothing like

398
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Speaker 1: the real thing. You're all I need to get by,

399
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,120
Speaker 1: just iconic motown songs, and those two together just had

400
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Speaker 1: this great thing going on in the late sixties and

401
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: really like some of the biggest hits that Marvin Gay

402
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 1: was having at that time, we're with Tammy Terrell. But

403
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 1: you know, as early as nineteen sixty seven, Tammy was

404
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,159
Speaker 1: having health problems. There was an incident in October of

405
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Speaker 1: sixty seven where she collapsed into Marvin Gay's arms on stage,

406
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Speaker 1: but she continued to work with Marvin basically until the

407
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Speaker 1: end of her life, until she was too sick to perform,

408
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 1: and when she died in nineteen seventy, it just again

409
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 1: it devastated Marvin Gay. I saw this story once. It

410
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Speaker 1: was in one of the documentaries I watched, where he

411
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 1: would go on stage and wouldn't wouldn't even be able

412
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 1: to sing, like he couldn't talk to the audience, like

413
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 1: he was that despondent. During this time. He also started

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Speaker 1: getting deep into cocaine around this period, and I think

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Speaker 1: with Barry Gordy, as far as that relationship goes, like,

416
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Speaker 1: didn't Barry Gordy like want to like immediately replaced Tammy

417
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Speaker 1: Terrell like with another singer. I think it was Valerie Simpson,

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Speaker 1: like pretty much as soon as she couldn't sing, he

419
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 1: wanted to put another singer in there. Yeah, they were

420
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Speaker 1: doing another duets album, Marvin and Tammy. I think it

421
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Speaker 1: was easy. It was their third duet album, and yeah,

422
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: and Tammy couldn't sing anymore. But they you know that

423
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 1: this duo sold an incredible amount of records and they

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00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: want to get one more out there. So for the

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Speaker 1: last couple of songs, I think Barry reportedly hired Valerie

426
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Speaker 1: Simpson to kind of dub Tammy's parts like ghosts singing

427
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 1: like and that really rubbed Marvin the wrong way. It

428
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,959
Speaker 1: really made the underlying sense that he had that you know,

429
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: Barry doesn't view us as as people, we've used as

430
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: products was really really established then and and I think

431
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: at the same time too, and this was the era

432
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: when a lot of the Motown artists were starting to

433
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: really deal with substance abuse. And you've got people like

434
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: you know, Paul Williams from the Temptations who died in

435
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 1: the early seventies, and Florence Ballard who left the Temptations

436
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 1: and also died at a really young age in literally

437
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: seventies too, So a lot of his friends were really

438
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: in a bad way. And I think on some level

439
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: Marvin blamed the Motown machine uh for for pushing him

440
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: further and further that way, and and Barry was at

441
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 1: the head of it. Yeah, and you can really see

442
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: that Like Marvin Gay, I mean, it just seems like

443
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 1: he felt lost at this time. Like there's that story

444
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: about like how he tried out for the Detroit Lions,

445
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: which is insane. So he's like because he was just like,

446
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to be a singer anymore,

447
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 1: so maybe I'll play professional football, which yeah, that it's

448
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: crazy that that's your pivot or that's your backup job

449
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: to play pro football. And of course I didn't work

450
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: because it's Marvin Gay. Even the Detroit Lions, the sorry

451
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: Lions are not going to sign Marvin Gay uh for

452
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: for their lineup. But even though Marvin Gay decided to

453
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: stay with Motown and to continue his career, it seems

454
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: like this was a real turning point for him as

455
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 1: far as like finally drawing a line in the sand

456
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: about the show business aspects of motown, that he was

457
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: not going to play Kaye Berry Gordy anymore. He did

458
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 1: this thing where he grew a beard, which you know,

459
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: you look at that now doesn't seem like that's that

460
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 1: big of a rebellious gesture, but for a pop star

461
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: of his stature, especially someone who I think, again, he's

462
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: such a great looking guy. His face is a big

463
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: part of his appeal, and to grow a beard, I

464
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: think it was probably a pretty radical thing for him. Um,

465
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 1: I mean he even looked more handsome I think with

466
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: a beard. I mean like but again like Barbara Gays,

467
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: like just the movie star handsome person. But this always,

468
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 1: I think leading up to What's going On, because this

469
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: is going to be his definitive break from the orthodoxy

470
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: of motown. And something I didn't really realize was that

471
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: the song What's going On was actually written by Obie

472
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: Benson of the Four Tops, and he was on tour

473
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: with the band and he saw some cops beating up

474
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 1: a kid in in San Francisco and that kind of

475
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: planted the seed in his head about this song, and

476
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: he offered the song to the Four Tops and they passed.

477
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: And he also offered it to Joan Buyas, which is

478
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: InCred able to think about, and she didn't know that. Yeah,

479
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: that's that's really the definitely interesting like alternate history right there.

480
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: If Joan had done What's gone on, But I'm gonna

481
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go on to Limb and say, it would

482
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: not be as good as the Mary version. That's that's

483
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: a fair yeah. So eventually it landed with Marvin and

484
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: it suited exactly where he wanted to go with his music.

485
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: And he would later say, you know, in nineteen nine seventy,

486
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: I began to reevaluate my whole concept of what I

487
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: wanted my music to say. I realized I had to

488
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: put my own fantasies behind me. If I wanted to

489
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: write songs that would reach the souls of people, I

490
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: wanted them to take a look at what was happening

491
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 1: in the world. So he polished the melody and reworked

492
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: some of the lyrics to reflect his brother's Frankie's experiences

493
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: in Vietnam as a soldier and his influence on the song.

494
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: He basically turned it into more of a story than

495
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: a song, Like it's an incredibly visual work. I mean,

496
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: the way it almost is like a poem rather than

497
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: a song. Um so this is really his first full

498
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: scale independent production. He paid for the sessions himself. He

499
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: hired his own musicians, including members of the Detroit Symphony,

500
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: and he had some friends from the Detroit Lions in

501
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 1: the session to adding the street chatter that you hear

502
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: in the background and uh and yeah, this was really

503
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: he would say that this was the moment that he

504
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 1: really found himself in the studio. Even down to his singing,

505
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: he's kind of like signature airy tenor, like the way

506
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: his voice kind of floats. He's not really belting like

507
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: he would on the on the sort of the more

508
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: poppy motown R and B stuff. This was really where

509
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: we hear like like this is where sexy seventies Marvin

510
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: Gay's vocals really originate. Oh yeah, and if you want

511
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: a clear demonstration of that, just play What's going On

512
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: next to you. I heard it through the grapevine. I mean,

513
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: his vocal style is so different, and of course I

514
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: heard it through the grapevine. That's awesome too, but it's

515
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: much more of a forceful vocal whereas What's going On,

516
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: like you said, it has this area almost jazz equality

517
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: to it and just completely gorgeous. So you know, imagine

518
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: you're Marvin Gay. You've paid for the sessions for the

519
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: song What's going On? You know, you hear it and

520
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: it's like, this is amazing. I've made this masterpiece. I

521
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: have to play for the head of my record label.

522
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: So he tracks down Barry Gordy, who I believe was

523
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: on vacation at the time, Like I'm not sure where

524
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: he was. I just picture Barry Gordy and like Bermuda

525
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: shorts or something, and Marvin Gay plays What's going On

526
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: for Barry Gordy, and Berry Gordy's responses, this is the

527
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: worst thing I've ever heard in my life. That's the quote.

528
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: That is the quote, that is the quote, that is

529
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: literally what he says that he hates what's going on.

530
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: And if you know anything about Barry Gordy, you can

531
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: see why he would react this way because it's a

532
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: political song. And he believes, again from his newspaper selling

533
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: experiences as a boy, that you don't alienate white audiences

534
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: by doing anything that they might find threatening. And he

535
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: he believes that a black man talking about social issues

536
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: is going to be threatening. Why would you think that's threatening.

537
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: It's like fifty years later, that's still true in America.

538
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: But Barry Gordy is very upset that the song is

539
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: doing that, and he also doesn't like the jazziness of

540
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: it us Again, that goes back to the lesson that

541
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,239
Speaker 1: he learned about his record store, that like, if you

542
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: get to jazzy, if you get too complicated in pop music,

543
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: that's going to turn the pop audience off. And his

544
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: belief was just that, like, if you put this song out,

545
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: it's going to ruin your career, and it's also going

546
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: to diminish the image of Motown in general. So like, yeah,

547
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: he was just dead set against putting this song out.

548
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: And they played at Motown had the famous sort of

549
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: quality control meetings that they would have once a week

550
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: where they play a bunch of songs and vote on

551
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: which ones we put out a singles and which ones

552
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: would just be album tracks and which ones would just

553
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, get dumped. And I guess everybody at the

554
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: quality control meeting hated this song except Stevie Want There.

555
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder was cool enough to get it, which of

556
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: course they also hated. I heard it through the grapevine too,

557
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: by the way. Yeah, exactly. They hated. I heard it

558
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: through the grapevine and they hated what's going on arguably

559
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: the two most famous songs that Marvin Gay ever performed,

560
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: So that shows what they know. So Marvin is heartbroken.

561
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: He's really is trying to argue with with Barry's trying

562
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: reason with him about what's going on out and it's

563
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: not going anywhere. So he decides to go on strike

564
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 1: and Motown says, okay, fine, and they put out a

565
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay Greatest Hits compilation called super Hits, and it's

566
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: just it's almost like what they did with Brian Wilson

567
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: and Pet Sounds. They did the same thing where they

568
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: put out the Greatest Hits album to kind of cover

569
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: for Pet Sounds. Uh, it's this embarrassing. The cover is

570
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: like a cartoon with Marvin as like a superhero carrying

571
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: this like damsel over his shoulder. It's like, really weird.

572
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: Marvin went nuts, especially when he saw the artwork and

573
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: demanded that they changed it. They didn't. It never was changed. Um, Marvin,

574
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: he was furious. I mean, this was to go from

575
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: wanting to release your first self produced song to basically

576
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: have and and move ahead, and you know, he's in

577
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: his thirties now, he wants to control his own artistic destiny,

578
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: to not only be denied the right to do that,

579
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: but then they have all this other stuff that you're

580
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: not proud of then shoved in your face. It was

581
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: really adding salt in the wounds there. So that really

582
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: pissed him off, and he dug in his heels even

583
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: more and still refused to record. And after a while,

584
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: Motown's they, you know, Marvin's, i think, their biggest male

585
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: singer at that point, they kind of want them back

586
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: to make more product, and Barry goes to Smokey. Robinson

587
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: says he, you know, smoke, try to get Marvin back

588
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: into the studio and smoke He says, Hey, Barry, it's

589
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: like a bear shooting in the woods. Marvin ain't budget.

590
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: That's true. That is true of bear shooting in the woods.

591
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: They do not move, and neither did Marvin Gay for months,

592
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: and Barry Gordy didn't move either. I mean, the only

593
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: reason why What's going On came out as a single

594
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: is that there was another executive at Motown Records, a

595
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: guy by the name of Harry Bulk, who essentially pressed

596
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: up a hundred thousand copies of the single behind Barry

597
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: Gordy's back and shipped it off to record stores. And

598
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: if this would have failed, I'm sure Harry Balk would

599
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: have been, you know, found in a car trunk somewhere.

600
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: But it turns out that this becomes the fastest selling

601
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: single in Motown history, and before long, you know, before

602
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: Berry Gordy really even knows what's going on, they have

603
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: to order another hundred thousand singles, you know, just to

604
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: keep up with demand. One thing I think is like,

605
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, look, what's going on is like just an

606
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: incredible song, But that that fade out at the end,

607
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: where it fades out and it comes back up. I

608
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: was that that's kind of weird. Do you think that's

609
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: like a shot at Barry Gordy on some level? Oh,

610
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I absolutely think it's a shot at Barry Gordy. And

611
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, yeah, you think that that like

612
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: song that he really hates over up Surprised here it

613
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: is again, I could totally think that was a Barry Yeah.

614
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: So this song ends up becoming a huge hit for

615
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay and you know, Berry Gordy he could recognize. Okay,

616
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: I didn't like this song, but I like to make money,

617
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: so let's let's put together an album, you know, with

618
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: this song on it. But he still is hedging his

619
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: bets here. He's like, I give you thirty days to

620
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: make an album, and not only did Marvin Gay live

621
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: up to that, he actually made the album in ten days,

622
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: and which is amazing because you look at that album,

623
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: you have songs like Mercy, Mercy me, Inner City Blues,

624
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: what's happening bro there? I mean, all songs that are

625
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: very much in the vein of the title track, but

626
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,239
Speaker 1: are like really strong songs on their own. Uh. I mean,

627
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: it's incredible that he was able to just turn around

628
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: this masterful album that quickly. I think another fascinating thing

629
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: about what's going on also is that it was a

630
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: I think it was like the first Motown record to

631
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: actually credit the musicians in the liner notes, like usually

632
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: they would only credit it to the committee. You know

633
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: that was the name of you know this, this incredible

634
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: backing band that was on all of these uh, you know,

635
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: wonderful Motown hits, and you know, we know these musicians now.

636
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: But I feel like someone like James Jamerson, for instance,

637
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: who is now just revered as like one of the

638
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: great bass players of R and B soul in rock music.

639
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: And who's playing on this record is just so epic

640
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: and beautiful. I feel like the cult around him really

641
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: starts like with this album. In a way, it's probably

642
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: the first time that people even knew like who were

643
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: on these records. Oh yeah, I mean, and the Jamerson

644
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: thing is great because the legend is he showed up

645
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: to What's going On that the single totally drunk and

646
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: he's playing that that incredible melodic bass part. He's like

647
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: flat on his back on the floor. Of course, that

648
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: that's the myth at least that's what I mean. I

649
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: choose to believe it because that's just how awesome Jamison is.

650
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: But uh yeah, I love that. That's great, And you know, look,

651
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,239
Speaker 1: these things are easy to see in retrospect, and like

652
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: even Barry Gordy went on to say that he felt

653
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: that What's going On was like the signature album of Motown,

654
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: Like he thought it was the best thing that they

655
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: had ever produced. So even he came to see the light,

656
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: you know, decades later after this album had been valorized

657
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: so many times. But uh, you know, it's just a

658
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: boggles my mind that a record like this would be

659
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: considered controversial because that you know, it is protest music,

660
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: but it's also like a total like pop star move.

661
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Like you look at Marvin Gay on the cover of

662
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: that album. He looks amazing. He looks cooler than he

663
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: will ever look in his life. He's wearing this like

664
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: awesome black cleather jacket. He's got like the canary yellow

665
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: shirt and tie, you know, and that is of course

666
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: being packaged with this mu is that that is so

667
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: beautiful and again so progressive and just loaded with like

668
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,479
Speaker 1: melodic songs that yeah, they're saying something profound, but like

669
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: even if you ignore the lyrics, like they're amazing songs.

670
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: I just want to ask quick, and you know, I

671
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: don't want to get too distracted here, but just as

672
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: a quick sidebar, do you think What's going On is

673
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: the greatest album of all time? Because I'm not even

674
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: sure it's like my favorite Marvin Gay record. That there's

675
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: other records that we're going to talk about here in

676
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: a minute that I think I like a little bit more.

677
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: That's no disrespect to What's going On. I think it's

678
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: a masterpiece. But do you think it's the greatest album ever. No,

679
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I I recognize it's importance. I feel about

680
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: it the same way I feel about Imagine by John Lennon.

681
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: I understand that it is this, you know, huge cultural

682
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: monolith and you know, a plea for for peace. Uh.

683
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: And I recognize what it means to people. But it's

684
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: not something that I I put on very often and

685
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: and I groove out to them and if I want that,

686
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: I put on like you know, I want you or

687
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: or let's get it on or something like that. Uh. Yeah,

688
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: it's I don't think it's even my favorite of his,

689
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: which is well, I mean it's incredible album. I mean

690
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: when I say that, that's not to dismiss what an

691
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: incredible piece of work it is. But he has other

692
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: incredible pieces of work too that I think I enjoy

693
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: a little bit more. So what's going on it comes out,

694
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: it's a huge hit. It's also a chance for Marvin

695
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: Gay to really stick it to Barry Gordy at this point,

696
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: like both like I guess personally and also professionally. Yeah,

697
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, for all the credits on the back of

698
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: the album, he had a big dedication section two and

699
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: he put all sorts of people, I mean, his fing

700
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: He even put his dad on it, which is interesting

701
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: in retrospect, Barry's not on it, which of all the people,

702
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: we think, Barry was not one of them, which I

703
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: think is uh, is very telling and uh. And this

704
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: is around the period when I think that the sort

705
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: of the balance of power at Motown starts to tip

706
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: in the favor of the artists and away from you know,

707
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: Barry and his committee. Because this album made Marvin turned

708
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: him from a hot R and B singer new like,

709
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, an important musical spokesperson. And this was the

710
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: same year in that Stevie Wonder turned twenty one and

711
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: he renegotiated his contract as an adult and that gave

712
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: him a lot more creative control. That led to music

713
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: My Mind and Talking Book and He's incredible run to follow.

714
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: And this was also when the Jackson Five came into

715
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: the Motown and Joe Jackson was you know, I think

716
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: Barry Gordy met his match in Joe Jackson. Joe under

717
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: under no uncertain terms. It was like, yeah, you know,

718
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: you're the head of Motown, but I'm the head of

719
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: the Jackson Five. Don't don't get it twisted. Another great

720
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: dad by the way, Joe Jackson another Father of the

721
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: Year right there. So this is like, you know, to

722
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: use the factory analogy. This is when sort of the

723
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: power Motown was now in the hands of the workers.

724
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, Karl Marks will be thrilled with this. So uh,

725
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: Barry Gordy realizes this that the kids that he mentor

726
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: were now more talented than he was. And and he

727
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: would later say, you know, for a person with my ego,

728
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: this didn't sit very well with me. You know, the

729
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: Motown sound was no more now it was a collection

730
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: of different artists doing their own thing. And and Barry

731
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: kind of busied himself with he was really trying to

732
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: launch Diana Ross as the solo film star, solo act,

733
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: Vegas act, all around performer kind deal. And Marvin felt

734
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: rejected by this. He thought that, you know that Barry

735
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: loved Diana more than him. And uh. He also was

736
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: really freaked out when, um, when Jermaine Jackson married Barry's

737
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: daughter Hazel, because he thought he'd been sort of supplanted

738
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: as sort of the Gordy family's Motown prince. And he

739
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: would later say, I saw myself being replaced Jermaine was

740
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: a singer marrying into the family just the way I had,

741
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: and just when I was being moved out. It was

742
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: all part of Barry's plan to give himself a new,

743
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: younger Marvin Gay. And again you can just see this

744
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: dynamic playing out again where Marvin Gay he wants to

745
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: please Barry Gordy. He's feeling threatened because he sees a

746
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: younger singer coming into the family and supplanting him, and

747
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: he feels that he's maybe not gonna get the same

748
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: kind of love or attention from Barry Gordy that he

749
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: got in the past. So there's that part of it,

750
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: But then there's also the other part where you know

751
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,959
Speaker 1: he wants to rebel against Barry Gordon and he wants

752
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: to again just stick it to him over and over again.

753
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: And you can see this with Let's Get It on

754
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: that record that comes out in the seventy three And

755
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: with that record, Marvin Gay was was given this huge contract.

756
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: It was like a million dollar contract. I think he

757
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: was like the richest black recording artist of that time.

758
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: And he wasn't just satisfied with getting that money. He

759
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: actually wanted Berry Gordy himself to sign the check again.

760
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: This is like another instance of like, you know, tracking

761
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: Berry Gordy down at Marvin Gay's request, you know, so

762
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: they could get a signature on here. And I guess

763
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: like Marvin Gaye had the check blown up to like

764
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: novelty size and like put over his fireplace. It was

765
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: like a kid with a report card, Like it's like

766
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: putting it on the fridge. Yeah, exactly. And he's like, yeah,

767
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: I want Barry Gordy to personally be giving me all

768
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: this money. And like he said later on that he's like,

769
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: you know, my goal, like I wanted to be richer

770
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: than Barry Gordy, you know, I wanted to have the

771
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: same kind of power than him, even more power. I

772
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: want to kill my father exactly. Another edible like overtone

773
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: to this. But you know, the thing with Marvin Gay

774
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: as opposed to Barry Gordy is that I think Barry

775
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: Gordy had ruthless core to him that kept him relatively stable,

776
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, throughout the decades that he could maintain his

777
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: kingdom because he wasn't gonna let anything distract him from

778
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: the task at hand, whereas Marvin gay was very distractable,

779
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: and around this time he ends up getting distracted by

780
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old girl named Janice Hunter who ends

781
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: up being the muse for Let's Get It On. Uh.

782
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: And I think she was like in the studio with him,

783
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: even like when he was like when he was recording

784
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: the song Let's Get It On. Wasn't she like in

785
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: the recording booth with him? So he was like literally

786
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: singing this song to this teenage girl, That's what I read. Yeah,

787
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: he was like looking her in the eyes as he

788
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: sang Let's Get It On, which definitely impacts my ability

789
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: to appreciate Let's Get It On exactly. We've ruined the

790
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: song for all of you by pointing that out. And

791
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: you know, from Berry Gordon's perspective, I'm sure this song

792
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: did not sit well because the song at best is

793
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: about Marvin Gay having sex with his sister. That's the

794
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that it's

795
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: a song about Marvin Gay having said with his high

796
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: school aged mistress, uh from his sister. That's definitely the

797
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: worst case scenario. And that's it seems like that's the

798
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: actual scenario here, because it seems like this is the

799
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: point where the marriage between Marvin and Anna is really

800
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: starting to go down the tubes. Yeah, in the mid seventies,

801
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: Marvin leaves Anna Gorty for for Janice Hunter. And you know,

802
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: this is a risky move, and it goes beyond any

803
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: kind of fear of like any kind of career retribution.

804
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: As he said, he's afraid Marvin is afraid of losing

805
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: Barry's love. Like, I think that's what it boils down to.

806
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't just like, oh my god, I'm I piste

807
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: off my label head. I think it was he had

808
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: so much wrapped up emotionally in Barry that I think

809
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: that was his biggest fear. In the same when Jermaine

810
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: married his daughter, and Marvin grew increasingly paranoid that Barry

811
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: and Anna were colluding against him. And I guess there

812
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: was a time that he was so paranoidal that he

813
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: refused to record from Motown for a while. Um, I

814
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: mean not very long, but long enough a couple of months.

815
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: And um, as part of the divorce settlement, Anna asked

816
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: a million dollars and Marvin definitely didn't have the cash.

817
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: And this was the late seventies and he was facing

818
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: bankruptcy on his home and cars were lost to foreclosure.

819
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: And I think at one point he was nearly imprisoned

820
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: for owing four point five million to the I R S.

821
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: And this isn't the seventies with inflation, and that's a

822
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: that's a huge bill. And there was a time I

823
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: think this is around the time and he was living

824
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: on the beaches in Maui and like a bread van

825
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: or something like, his finances were not in tip top shape.

826
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: Can we just say, like, is it awesome to be

827
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: living in a bread van in Maui doing tons of

828
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: cocaine or is it? Because part of me thinks that's

829
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: the most depressing thing I've ever heard. The other part

830
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: of me is like, ninety seven living on the beach

831
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: doing tons of blow that sounds kind of awesome. Like,

832
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, if it was just like a brief phase,

833
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: I guess if you had the choice to do that, uh,

834
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: that'd be one thing. But if you're just a coke

835
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: addict and you don't really have a choice, then it

836
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: then it's sad. You know. Maybe that's the difference there.

837
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Part of me is a little bit

838
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: jealous of Marvin Gay in his lifestyle at this time time.

839
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, even his tragedies around now. I have kind

840
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: of this like glamorous ring the I R S showed

841
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: up to Marvin's studio in l A. Wants to to

842
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: foreclose on it and uh and Barry got wind of

843
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: it and ended up paying Marvin's tax bill. It's around

844
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: the same time. So again, no matter what was going

845
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: on with them in a personally, Barry had his back

846
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: and Marvin wasn't at the studio at this time because

847
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: he was apparently at the super Bowl. So as his

848
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: studio is being foreclosed on, he's at the super Bowl.

849
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: So you're right, there's a lot of this. There's a

850
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: yin and yang to Marvin Gay's Black Knights of the Soul.

851
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, it's always like a silver lining to it.

852
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: And it's like at least you got to see I

853
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: guess that would be like Terry Bradshaw and the Pittsburgh Steelers.

854
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's probably a great Super Bowl. So things

855
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: are going to you know, a mixed bag in Marvin's

856
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: personal life. But he doesn't have a lot of money.

857
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: So his lawyer has a really interesting solution for divorce settlement.

858
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: He says Marvin can pay six hundred thousand dollars to

859
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: Anna Gorty, half of which would come from the advance

860
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: from his next album, and the other half would come

861
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: from the album's royalties. So basically would make an album

862
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: and all the proceeds to it would go to Anna.

863
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: So you know, all you had to do is going

864
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: to the studio and just bang out a piece of

865
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: garbage quickly, just anything, and you know, and that that

866
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: was part of the beauty of the deal was that

867
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: if you know, if it tanked, it didn't matter. He

868
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: lived up to his part of the of the of

869
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: the bargain by by making this album. Uh. But he's

870
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: an artist and as soon as he gets in there,

871
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: he's so inspired by you know. I think he's definitely

872
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: one of those artists that works best in a state

873
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: of like emotional uh turmoil, and obviously that was where

874
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: he was at with this album. And he records his

875
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: only double album called Here My Dear. Yeah, and I

876
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 1: have to say, you know, going back to the What's

877
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: going On? Is that the greatest album of all time?

878
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: I have to say that for me, Here My Dear

879
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: is my favorite Marvin Gay record. And maybe this has

880
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: to do with my personal bias in favor of like

881
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: personal songwriting versus political songwriting. You know, as much as

882
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: I love the political anthems on what's going on, just

883
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: the turmoil that was going on in Marvin Gay's life

884
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: at this time and how he was able to transform

885
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: it into this absolutely gorgeous music. I mean, this is

886
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: like prog soul, like just epic songs that go on

887
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: for like seven eight minutes and have all these different

888
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: movements and just like the gooeyest harmonies you've ever heard,

889
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: and this music being set to lyrics that are like

890
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: the most brutal breakup song looks I think I've ever heard.

891
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: I mean, if we talk about like the greatest breakup

892
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: albums of all time, you know Dylan's Blow on the Tracks,

893
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell's Blue or you know Springsteen's Tunnel of Love.

894
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: You know, those songwriters they're usually dealing like in metaphors,

895
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: you know, or they're being like vague about the connections

896
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: between the art that they're making in their personal lives.

897
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay doesn't have any use for metaphors at all

898
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: on this record. When he writes a song about Anna,

899
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: it's called Anna's Song. When he's writing a song about

900
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: how this record is being made because he has to

901
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: pay off his wife's alimony. He calls it, you can lead,

902
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: but it's going to cost you, you know. Like that

903
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: is how upfront he is on this album. And it

904
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: is one of those things like where you listen to

905
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 1: it and it is kind of embarrassing sometimes to listen

906
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: to it because it is so again unadorned and lyrically,

907
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: but I think that's where a lot of the power

908
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: of the album comes from. And again combining it with

909
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: this this beautiful music. It's such a bizarre, beautiful, singular

910
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: piece of work. It just compels me to no end,

911
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, every time I put it on. It has

912
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: my favorite single note in Marmy Gay's entire discography on

913
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: Anna song when he just screams Anna, he hits this

914
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: whale that it sends shivers down my spine every time

915
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: I hear it. It's just pain and angst. But it's

916
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: also Marvin Gay's voice, so you have it. It's it's

917
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: so beautiful an airy. Yeah that that whole album is unbelievable.

918
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: As you said, I mean, the lyrics are are so

919
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: personal that I guess Anna threatened the file five million

920
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: dollar invasion of privacy suit against him for these lyrics,

921
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: which I don't know if there's a precedent for that,

922
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: for suing someone over song lyrics like that. Uh, it is.

923
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: It is brutal, and of course the comes out and

924
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: it's a failure commercially and also critically. I think critics

925
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: at the time were just repulsed by this album. You know,

926
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: they gave it really poor reviews. I think in retrospect

927
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: people have come around to appreciating it as a masterpiece.

928
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: I think people now are really into this record. Um,

929
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 1: obviously Barry Gordy was not going to promote this record.

930
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: I mean, you know this is his sister again, you know,

931
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: Marvin Gaye and his family. He's making this album about

932
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: his sister, and uh, all these songs that are again like,

933
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: this album is really angry. There's a lot of anger

934
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 1: on it. There's a lot of hurt on it. But

935
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: it is in a way like character assassination for Anna Gordy.

936
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 1: So uh yeah, this just puts his relationship with Barry

937
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: Gordy like in another level of disrepair. But it really

938
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: it says a lot about barring as you said, about

939
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: his sort of cold, business minded heart where he by

940
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: all accounts didn't blow up at Marvin over this at all,

941
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: and whereas he very easily could have. I mean, he

942
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: may not have promoted this as much as as it

943
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: could have been. But yeah, in terms of you know,

944
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: friends and family relationships, I mean, this could have been

945
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: a very easily a deal breaker. But you know, at

946
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: the end of the day, Barry Gordon was a businessman

947
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 1: and Marvin was his most valuable asset at that time,

948
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: so he let it go. Yeah. It really wasn't until

949
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: the next record in Our Lifetime where they finally separated,

950
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: and even that it was Marvin's decision. That album not

951
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: one of my favorite albums, and by all accounts, not

952
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: one of Marvin's favorite albums either. Um, he spent a

953
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: number of years working on it, and he was really

954
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: in rough shape at this time with drugs and very

955
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: little money. I mean, this is really sort of when

956
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: he was bottoming out, and uh, he spent I think

957
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: three years working on this album. Motown was saying, you know, okay,

958
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: we we need this, please turn this in, and they

959
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: ended up releasing it when it was unfinished, to Marvin's satisfaction.

960
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: He says that they He claims that somebody actually promote Town.

961
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: Actually stole the tapes from the studios recording in and

962
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: I think in London, and um went and put some

963
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: overdubs on it and just mixed it in a different

964
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: way that he wasn't happy with and and released it.

965
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: And Marvin was absolutely furious. And he would say an interviews,

966
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: Motown shafted me. How could they embarrass me like that?

967
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, he compared it to to somebody going to

968
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: Picasso and saying, all right, because he's been working on

969
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: this long enough, it's like sticking arm here on a

970
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: leg there and all right, we're done. If you don't

971
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: like it too bad. He was absolutely heartbroken and he said,

972
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not going to work at Montown anymore.

973
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: And he didn't. That was the last album he ever

974
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: did for him. And you know there have been other instances,

975
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: of course where Marvin Gay was refusing to work and

976
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: you know that's where what's going on comes out of there.

977
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: You know, there was another kind of work stoppage. I

978
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: guess around the time off hear my dear, and this

979
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: is another work stoppage, but this time Barry Gordy is

980
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: actually like pretty cooperative and says Okay, you want this

981
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: to be your last record. If we can come to

982
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: an agreement, you know, I want to make this as

983
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 1: painless basically as we could make it, so very basically

984
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: let Marvin Gay go, even though Marvin Gay was still

985
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: like a pretty big star and like one of his

986
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: biggest earners. And I think from Berry Gordy's perspective, I

987
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: wonder if you just had enough at that point where

988
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: he felt like, Okay, I am going to take a

989
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 1: financial hit for this, but on some level, my life

990
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: is also going to be a little bit easier because

991
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: I don't have to deal with this guy's problems anymore.

992
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that's a fair assessment. Oh,

993
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: totally yeah. And I also I have to wonder about

994
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: Barry's state of mind in that period too, because not

995
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: only did Marvin leave, but Diana Ross also left him

996
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: at this time too for our c A, and his

997
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: relationship with Diana was probably just as complicated, if not

998
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: more than his relationship with Marvin Gay, because they think

999
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: they were together for a while romantically, and and and

1000
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: she was equal. She was kind of like the Queen

1001
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: of Motown to Marvin's kingham Motown. Uh, And so at

1002
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: that point he must have really just been like just hurting,

1003
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: not only from a financial standpoint of what's going on

1004
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: with my company right now, because the eighties weren't all

1005
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: that great for Motown, but also just these these people

1006
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 1: that I put so much of myself into and and

1007
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: and worked with and was a mentor two and and

1008
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: and Family two are both gone. I almost wonder if

1009
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: at that point he just he was I don't want

1010
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: to say two weak, but just saying, you know what, fine, fine,

1011
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: I can't I've been holding on so tightly to this

1012
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 1: massive empire and trying to control people for twenty plus years.

1013
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: I don't have it in ma anymore. Just go. You know.

1014
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: There's this interesting PostScript to Marvin Gay's tenure on Motown,

1015
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: which is the Motown Anniversary Special that aired in nineteen

1016
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: eight three. I don't know if you've seen this performance,

1017
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: but like, like Marvin Gay, Yeah, it's very weird. He's

1018
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: in this special, and I guess like Barry Gordy like

1019
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: reached out to him personally and asked him to be

1020
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: a part of the show. And when we talk about

1021
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: the anniversary special now everyone just talks about Michael Jackson

1022
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: because I was the first time he did the Moonwalk,

1023
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: and it is just considered like an iconic Michael Jackson performance.

1024
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: But Marvin Gate comes out and he spends about three

1025
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: minutes like sitting at the piano and like giving this

1026
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: history lesson and he's talking about like he's talking about

1027
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: the history of Motown. He's talking about slavery. There's like

1028
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: a little bit about like New Orleans rent parties. Yeah,

1029
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: just talking about sex. And he looks super high in

1030
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: this video, but he's playing the piano beautifully even as

1031
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: he's giving this rambling monologue. And then all of a sudden,

1032
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: like the backing band just like charges in and they

1033
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: started playing What's going On? And he performs like a

1034
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: short version of What's going On and it's pretty good,

1035
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: but like he doesn't look like he's in great shape

1036
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: at that time. No, Yeah, that was kind of when

1037
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: when he was really on the final decline. I think

1038
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: it was after Sexual Healing had come out. He cleaned

1039
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: up his act a little bit, but I think that

1040
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: was when things started getting in really bad form. It's

1041
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: it's a very strange performance. You're right, uh, because you

1042
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: have a band. It's almost like the band was waiting

1043
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: for him to actually play an intro and then by

1044
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: minute three they're like, okay, we're making a TV special here,

1045
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: this is gonna be time pretty weuch, let's just come

1046
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: in all right, here we go, and then he leaps

1047
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: up and starts singing. But that was about a year

1048
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: almost exactly before his death. Yeah, and again his death

1049
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: is it the worst musician death ever. I can't think

1050
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: of a more disturbing way to die. Terrific. Yeah, I mean,

1051
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: especially when I guess his brother stood over his body

1052
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: after he'd been shot, and and supposedly Marvin's last words were,

1053
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted this. I didn't want to do

1054
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: it myself. I knew what I was doing. Apparently his

1055
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: last words are about how he provoked his father to

1056
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: do this, which is just adds even more disturbing element.

1057
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: It's it's really horrendous. Well, and we should probably just

1058
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: say for people to know the story that, like Marvin

1059
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: Gay was staying at his father's house at the end

1060
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: of his life because he again was dealing with with

1061
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: drug addiction. He was not in a good way financially,

1062
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: and there was some sort of altercation with his father

1063
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: where I guess his dad felt threatened by his son,

1064
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: and he like shot his own son and killed him.

1065
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: Like that's the story there, Yeah, yeah, I mean it

1066
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: is really And then they they took Marvin Gay Senior

1067
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: to prison, and somebody asked him on the police station

1068
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: but his relationship. Did you love your son? I think

1069
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: was the question? And he said was quote was, well,

1070
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: let's just say I didn't not like him. Yeah. And

1071
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: of course Barry Gorey hears this news and he's devastated

1072
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: as as he would be. But it does see him

1073
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: like Barry Gordy in a way almost felt like he

1074
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: lost his own son in this thing. Because as much

1075
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: as Marvin looked at Barry Gordy as a father figure,

1076
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: it seems like there was a reciprocal feeling there, don't

1077
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: you think, Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean he he took

1078
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: up full page ads and entertainment newspapers calling Marvin the

1079
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: greatest singer of all time. And I guess Barry had

1080
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: a longstanding um policy of not really dealing with the press,

1081
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: but in this case he he talked to everybody saying

1082
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: that how Marvin was was the best of all time,

1083
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: the closest person I could relate him to his Billy Holiday,

1084
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: and I think Marvin's even better. Barry said, so, yeah,

1085
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: he eulogized them every chance that that he could. But

1086
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't think it's something he ever

1087
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: got over. We're gonna take a quick break and get

1088
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals.

1089
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: I know, we've now reached the part of the episode

1090
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: where we look at the pro side of each side

1091
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: of the rivalry. Let's start with Barry Gordy. You know,

1092
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: I think the term gene gets over used a lot

1093
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: in music, but like with Barry Gordy, I think he's

1094
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: like one of the few people like where the term

1095
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 1: really applies. I mean, just as a songwriter. He wrote

1096
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: so many classic songs. I mean, we didn't really even

1097
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: delve into his songwriting career, like all the hits that

1098
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: he wrote for Jackie Wilson before he really got rolling

1099
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: with motown, you know, like Repetite and all those wonderful

1100
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: Jackie Wilson hits. But his most profound talent really was

1101
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: for creating this assembly line for pop music that was

1102
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: both commercially successful and like creatively viable and excellent. You know,

1103
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: like he wasn't just turning up pop songs. He was

1104
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: turning out like some of the greatest pop songs of

1105
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: all time throughout the sixties and seventies. To me, he

1106
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: truly is like the Henry Ford of pop music, or

1107
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: I guess like the Daniel plain View of soul. As

1108
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: I said earlier too. Uh, even if he overstepped his

1109
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: boundaries sometimes with artists by being overly controlling. I mean,

1110
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: you can't argue with his track record. I mean, Motown

1111
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: is I think the great American record label of the

1112
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: rock era, and Barry Gordy is responsible for that. Oh yeah,

1113
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: I mean even if he if Barry was just responsible

1114
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: for a Marvin Gay in his place in music history,

1115
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: would be as sure. But to think that Marvin was

1116
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 1: just one of dozens of threads that all go back

1117
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: to to Barry, it's just it's just absolutely mind boggling

1118
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: um and and Marvin recognized that in the last months

1119
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: of his life. You know, long after he left Motown,

1120
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 1: he said, say what you want about Barry. If it

1121
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: wasn't for him, you wouldn't have heard of any of us.

1122
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: B G had the vision they would call him b G.

1123
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, you really got to wonder if

1124
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 1: what would have happened with Marvin Gay if he hadn't

1125
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: come across uh Barry Gordy, And you wonder if he

1126
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: just would have been, you know, one of many backing

1127
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: singers with Harvey Fuquall and other sort of like doo

1128
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: wop groups, or if he would have tried to make

1129
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: a go of it as sort of a Nat King

1130
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: Cole style crooner, which I don't think would have cut

1131
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: through in the sixties. I don't think that was I

1132
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: think maybe Marvin in the early sixties was thinking that

1133
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: the music scene was going to progress as it had

1134
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: in the fifties, and there was sort of a more

1135
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: of a middle of the lane, uh place for him

1136
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,919
Speaker 1: to do those kind of songs. But I think that

1137
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 1: it really didn't work out that way, and he needed

1138
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: someone like Barry to push a and that that more

1139
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: commercial R and B direction. And you know, also, for

1140
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: all the people who say that Marvin is this incredible

1141
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 1: audio alturn, and he is, he had had a decade

1142
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: of working with some of the best musicians and songwriters

1143
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: and producers in the business. So you know, before he

1144
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: broke all the rules with what's going on, he learned

1145
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: the rules from the Motown team, and they're the best

1146
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: in the business. I think that was really invaluable. So

1147
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: I think as much as he would disparage his sixties

1148
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: pop output, I think that all the timeless seventies work

1149
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: was really built on that. So if we switch over

1150
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: to the pro Marvin Gay side, I mean, look, it's

1151
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay. You know, he'd we say more. I mean,

1152
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: I think Smokey Robinson once called Marvin Gay the most

1153
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: talented singer that he ever knew, you know, And that's

1154
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: Smokey Robinson saying that. So that says a lot. And

1155
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: as first troubled as he was, especially later in his life,

1156
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: I mean, he's still like one of the greatest singers

1157
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: and songwriters and arrangers and record makers of all time.

1158
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: And he made what many people consider to be the

1159
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: greatest album ever with What's going On. And even if

1160
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: you don't think that's the greatest album ever, he also

1161
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: made Let's Get It On, he made I Want You,

1162
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: and he made Here My Dear. I mean again, Here

1163
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: My Dear, one of the strangest and most beautiful and

1164
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: and most fearless albums. I feel like to come out

1165
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: of the nineteen seventies. So I look at Marvin Gaye

1166
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: and I just see this great combination of both a

1167
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: pop star and a genuine artist who was willing to

1168
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: put everything on the line to pursue his vision. And

1169
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, here we are decades after his death and

1170
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 1: his music still sounds as good as it ever did. Yeah,

1171
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that his work uh gave

1172
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: Motown sort of was a social conscious of motown, and

1173
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: I think that they needed that in that era. It

1174
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,720
Speaker 1: really gave I think to that point in the early

1175
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: and mid sixties, in fact the Motown existed at all

1176
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: was the statement he was a black run business, run

1177
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: by black people, for black people, and in the world.

1178
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: And I think that by actually speaking out on what

1179
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: was happening in the world was sort of the next

1180
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: step for that. Also, I feel like Marvin's actual musical

1181
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: chops are commented on enough. He's an amazing musician. There's

1182
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 1: an amazing clip of him just playing at a Grand

1183
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: p Anno. I think it was in a documentary from

1184
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: one when he's touring in Belgium, I think, and he's

1185
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: just ripping on come get to This and and Distant Lover,

1186
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: and it is unbelievable. It's absolutely worth checking out. You

1187
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: really need to see it. So on top of you know,

1188
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: incredible groundbreaking pop, visionary, amazing singer, I just want to

1189
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 1: give props to his musical skills too as a as

1190
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: an instrumentalist. So if we look at these two guys together,

1191
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear the father's son dynamic as

1192
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: messed up as it was psychologically, I think, especially for

1193
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: Marvin gay, it did work for them. I mean, I

1194
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: think Marvin gay needed a father figure in his life

1195
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: to give him guidance and also just as something to

1196
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: play off of, something that he could rebel against. And

1197
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: when you look at an album like What's going On,

1198
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: it clearly caused him to do great things when he

1199
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: felt like he could sort of strike out against some

1200
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: person that was trying to control him too much. And

1201
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: then when you look at Barry Gordy, you know, he

1202
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: has this rebellious son figured that he's trying to put

1203
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: in his place, and yet the sun ends up I

1204
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: think help ing out the father a lot by rebelling

1205
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,919
Speaker 1: against him. You know, like the fact that Marvin Gaye

1206
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: made What's going On really changed the face of Motown

1207
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: and it allowed I think Motown to move into the

1208
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: seventies and to continue to prosper. I think without Marvin Gay,

1209
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: for instance, I think it would have been a lot

1210
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: harder for Stevie Wonder to do what he eventually did,

1211
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: you know. And if Barry Gordy had continued to control

1212
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: these artists and not allow them to really spread their

1213
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: wings and to make these incredible, ambitious records, I think

1214
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: they would have faded a lot faster. I think they

1215
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:27,919
Speaker 1: would have been looked at as sort of an old

1216
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: fashioned record label instead of what they became in the seventies,

1217
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: which was, you know, sort of staying on the cutting

1218
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: edge of what pop music could be. So yeah, I

1219
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: think it's clear that these guys, as much as they

1220
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: had a poisonous relationship at times, it does seem like

1221
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: they brought the best out of each other in many instances. Yeah,

1222
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: And I think that that's really complicated, almost familiar relationship

1223
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: that we were talking about between Barry and Marvin ended

1224
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 1: up working in um in Barry's favor too, because I

1225
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: think he treated Marvin like a favorite, if you know,

1226
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: somewhat spoiled child. I think that he let Marvin get

1227
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: away with a lot more than he would any other

1228
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: of his artists. You know, I think if if any

1229
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: other artist on the label trying to pull a kind

1230
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: of stuff that Marvin was pulling, I have no doubt

1231
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: that they would have gotten the boots so much sooner.

1232
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: But I think that Barry recognized Marvin's brilliance and let

1233
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: him get away with the stuff that, as you said,

1234
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: really ended up transforming Modetown for the new decade. So

1235
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: it's it fair to say that we now know what's

1236
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: going on with these two guys. Oh Stephen, how sweet

1237
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: it is to do this show with you, Stephen oh Man.

1238
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: My favorite part of the episode, the terrible joke, the

1239
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: pun on the artist song title. I hope you guys

1240
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed as much as we do. We have not reached

1241
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: the end of another episode of Rivals. Thank you for

1242
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: joining us, and we'll be back with more beefs and

1243
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: feuds and long serving resentments next week. Rivals is a

1244
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn

1245
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: Titone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chicoin

1246
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: and Tristan McNeil. The producers Joel hat Stat, I'm Jordan

1247
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: run Talk I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard,

1248
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcasts

1249
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: for My heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

1250
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1251
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: H