1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Roshaw is dedicating his life to solving the problems 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: of health and hunger. After getting a medical school degree, 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: he began his career at the Gates Foundation. From there 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: he joined the Obama administration as the head of the 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: USAID and now he's the head of the Rockefeller Foundation. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: I had a chance Reacing to sit down with Rashaw 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: to talk about his passion for solving these global problems. 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: So tell us what is the Rockefeller Foundation. I know 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: the Rockefeller name, but what is the foundation? What does 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: it really do? Well? 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: The Foundation was created more than one hundred years ago 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: by John D. Rockefeller, and the idea was very simple, 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: was to use science and innovation to lift up as 14 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: many people around the world as possible. And over that 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: period of time, this foundation has helped create the field 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: of modern medicine, invest in international public health, launch a 17 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: green revolution through agricultural sciences that helped almost a billion 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: people move off the brink of hunger and starvation. And 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: today are big focus is around climate and energy. 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: So if I said to you, I have a great 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: idea for the Rockefeller Foundation, what's your polite way of 22 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: saying no. 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on the idea I guess, but in 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: general we love hearing about new ideas. We do tend 25 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: to be a little more directed and focused than perhaps 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: other institutions. You know, almost fifty percent of our giving 27 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: is focused right now on ending energy poverty around the world, 28 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: which we can talk about, and so we tend to 29 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: sort of set our strategies and then go find partners 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: that can add value to implementing those strategies, as opposed 31 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: to just taking in recommendations broadly. 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: Now, recently you wrote an article about the importance of 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: climate change and what you're trying to do about it. 34 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: What is your idea of how we can tackle the 35 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: climate change problem. 36 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, we actually are very concerned that the larger global 37 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: effort to fight climate change is missing a major, major 38 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: focus on developing and emerging economies. The reality is, if 39 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: all of the wealthy. 40 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: Countries the United States, Europe, China. 41 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: Live up to the policies they've already committed to, then 42 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: seventy five percent of all future emissions will come from 43 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: eighty one countries that today are classified as housing more 44 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: than three billion people that live in energy poverty, and 45 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: right now we're on path to provide those people with 46 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: electricity and energy through coal, heavy fuel, oil, natural gas, 47 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: and other sources of power that will continue to drive emissions. 48 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: We're trying to change that pathway for those billions of 49 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: people to focus much more on renewables. 50 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: I've often thought that one of the problems with climate 51 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: change getting people to do it is that the benefits 52 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: are not going to be felt in your lifetime. Most 53 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: likely your great great great grandchildren will see the benefits 54 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: of what we do now, and it's hard to get 55 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: people to change their conduct for their great great great grandchildren. 56 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: How are you going to solve that problem? How are 57 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: you going to get people really care about reducing the 58 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: use of carbon. 59 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: Well, David, I'll tell you. 60 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: We're seeing the impacts in communities we work in around 61 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: the world right now. And the reality is we've already 62 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: seen downward pressure on agricultural output in Africa and parts 63 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: of India and Latin America that are increasing the number 64 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: of people who are hungry and the number of communities 65 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: that are threatened. We're already seeing tremendous changes to coastal communities, 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: whether it's in Bangladesh or in South America, that are 67 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 2: reducing people's livelihoods and access to fisheries and sources of protein. 68 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: And we're already seeing women working in salt flats whom 69 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: I was with them just last winter, in working extreme 70 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: heat in India, and some even perishing through trying to 71 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: make a dollar a day or two dollars a day 72 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: doing backbreaking work in one hundred and ten one hundred 73 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: and twelve degree weather. So this is a crisis that's 74 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: affecting people, especially vulnerable people and poorer communities right now, 75 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: which is why the Foundation is so focused on fighting 76 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: climate and. 77 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: You're putting a large number of your resources and personnel 78 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: into this effort. 79 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, in fact, we're all in on addressing climate change. 80 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: And we as an institution founded originally on the resources 81 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: that came from standard oil, we've divested of fossil fuels 82 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: in our endowment. We're making a commitment to run our 83 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: operations in a net zero manner by twenty forty, and 84 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: we're very committed to making sure our partnerships help change 85 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: the trajectory of climate change, especially in developing countries. 86 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: Now. Recently, you've also written a book called Big Bets. 87 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: We'll go through the book and some of the big 88 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: bets you've made, but what gave you the idea of 89 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: writing a book, so you're so young in your career 90 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: about your career already. 91 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: Well, I mostly wanted to just make the point that 92 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: when you work in social impact, or when you work 93 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: on issues like global development, which I've had a chance 94 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: to work on at the Gates Foundation under President Obama 95 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: at US eight and now here at the Rockefeller Foundation, 96 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: you don't have to settle for incrementally doing good. So 97 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: much of human charity is about sort of doing a little, 98 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: doing what you can, and feeling good about it. And 99 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: I wanted to introduce the idea that you can actually 100 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: try to solve some of the world's biggest, most challenging problems. 101 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: And in fact, if you look at our philanthropic history, 102 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: not mine personally, but that of the Rockefeller Foundation as 103 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: an institution, or what the Gates Foundation has done as 104 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: an institution, I think their biggest wins have been thinking 105 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: of solving problems globally and moving hundreds of millions or 106 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: tens of millions of people out of really dire living 107 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: conditions into a much more bright future. 108 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: About making a little, small incremental bets are easier to 109 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: get done. Why isn't that easier to do than the 110 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: big bets, which could fail well. 111 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: Ironically, big bets require making lots of small, incremental bets 112 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: along the way. 113 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 3: We're trying to bring power. 114 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: And electricity through renewables to a billion people who live 115 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 2: literally in the dark, with less electricity per person than 116 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: it takes to power one light bulb than one small 117 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: appliance in their home through. 118 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: The course of a year. We don't solve that through 119 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 3: one large effort. 120 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: We're going to solve that by collecting and aggregating thousands 121 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: of small actions from people around the world. 122 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 3: But here's the difference. 123 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: When you aspire to do something big and bold, you 124 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: can then talk to leaders who want to be a 125 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: part of solutions at that scale. I can sit down 126 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: with Larry Fink at Blackrock and design financing instruments that 127 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: can bring billions of dollars. I can talk to the 128 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: heads of those putting together the cop climate negotiations at 129 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: the UAE and structure new initiatives that can mobilize the 130 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: kinds of resources we need. 131 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: Or I can partner with. 132 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: Colleagues at Tata Power and say let's build ten thousand 133 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 2: rural minigrids and move twenty five million people out of power, 134 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: out of energy, poverty. Those types of solutions, in my view, 135 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: happen when you dream big. 136 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your background. So your parents came from where. 137 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 3: My parents are from India. 138 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: Where did they settle Well, they. 139 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: Started actually in Pasadena, California. My dad was an engineer 140 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: who was working on the Apollo programs for a company 141 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: called Bendix that was designing components on Apollo missions. But 142 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: they quickly moved to Detroit, Michigan, and my dad had 143 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: a thirty year career at Ford Motor Company. 144 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: And your mother, my mom. 145 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: Is an early childhood education specialist and she started a 146 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: Montessori school and ran that throughout my childhood. 147 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: So she grew up in the Detroit area. And I 148 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: assume you were a superstar student? Is that right? 149 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: I was a pretty good student, and I grew up 150 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: in an Indian American community that was pretty focused on 151 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: being a good student. 152 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: You went to University of Michigan, I did go blue. 153 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: And what did you wanted to study there? Well? 154 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: I started as in engineering because I grew up in 155 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: a family where you're either going to be a doctor 156 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: or an engineer, and I thought I do be an engineer. 157 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: Maybe be an auto designer was. 158 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: My sort of early plan, but quickly switched to literature, science, 159 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: and arts and started studying economics and policy. 160 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: All right, So when you graduated from Michigan I assume 161 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: you did recently. While there, you decided to go to 162 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: medical school at University of Pennsylvania. 163 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: I did. 164 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: But medical school wasn't enough. You also wanted to get 165 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: another degree as well. 166 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: You know, in reality, I think I felt I supposed 167 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: to be a doctor because I just sort of grew 168 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: up with that, and I got very interested in politics 169 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: and policy, so I wanted to learn about health economics, 170 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: and I joined an mdphd program at penn and Medical 171 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: and the Warden School. 172 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: Then did you set up shop to become a doctor? 173 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 3: I didn't. 174 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: Did that disappoint your parents? 175 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: It? Well, it did at the time. It maybe not disappointment. 176 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: It made them awfully nervous. But after I took my 177 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: last set of board exams, my then girlfriend and I 178 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: now wife, and I got in my car and drove 179 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: fourteen hours to Nashville, Tennessee, from Philadelphia in order to 180 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: volunteer on al Gore's presidential campaign when it was during trial. 181 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: It was so when he did not become president. What 182 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: did you do? Well? 183 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: I found myself unemployed for a little while, and I 184 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: started dabbling in political consulting and doing some other. 185 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: Make your parents nervous that their year had no. 186 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: Job, very nervous, and frankly, they and everybody else wanted 187 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: and I even wanted to, you know, thought okay, gosh, 188 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 2: now I should go back to medicine and just be 189 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: a doctor, do a residency. But then I got a 190 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: phone call from a friend who I met on the campaign, 191 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: who said, you know, Bill and Melinda Gates were setting 192 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: up this foundation and they had big aspirations for what 193 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: they wanted to do, and they were looking for someone 194 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 2: who knew health economics and medicine and had some perspective 195 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: on global health issues. So I interviewed for a job, 196 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: and you got it, I did. 197 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: So what was the challenge you had there? You wrote 198 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: about it in your book, But why don't you describe 199 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: what you tried to do there over the two or 200 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: three year period of time you were there. 201 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this project was really their big initial effort. 202 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: Bill and Melinda had read an article about a disease 203 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: called roadavirus that was killing four hundred thousand kids around 204 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 2: the world every year. And in that same article they 205 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: pointed out that a company, Merk was rolling out of 206 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: vaccine in the United States to address roadavirus where kids 207 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: actually didn't die of the disease. And so they had 208 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: the very simple question of why couldn't we get the 209 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: vaccines to every child on the planet, in particular those 210 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: that need them to survive. 211 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: So your project was to get this vaccine to everybody 212 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: in the world, essentially every child who needed. 213 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: It, well, every childhood vaccine that existed, to every child 214 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: who needed it. And so we studied the global birth 215 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: cohort of about one hundred and five million kids at 216 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: the time. We assessed the data and concluded that probably 217 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: about half of those kids were getting some form of 218 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: robust vaccination that could save their lives from infectious diseases, 219 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: and half were not. 220 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: So did you eventually meet with Bill Gates when working 221 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: on this problem. 222 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I write about this in the book because 223 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: I learned from Bill the power of asking a simple question. 224 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: It wasn't just one meeting, but he would pull us 225 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: all together quite regularly and say, you know, what does 226 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: it take to vaccinate every child on the planet. We 227 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: were trying to get to a cost analysis of that problem, 228 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: which required really deconstructing the challenges. And it was interesting 229 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: because what I learned in that setting was sometimes complexity 230 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: can make it hard to engage. And Bill just insisted 231 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: on finding a simple answer to a simple set of questions, 232 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: and that helped us craft a strategy that made a 233 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: big difference. 234 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: So you point out in the book that you couldn't 235 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: vaccine all the children in the world by yourselves. The 236 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: Gates Foundation had good resources, but not unlimited power to 237 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: do everything, so you had to engage countries, and you 238 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: point out in the book that one time you went 239 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: to meet with the President Sharrock of France and you 240 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: didn't have shoes that were appropriate. 241 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: What happened, Well, what we learned as we were doing 242 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: the work was that the vaccine industry wasn't even producing 243 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: enough vaccines for kids in low income countries effectively, and 244 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: so we needed to restructure the way the world financed vaccines. 245 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: We put a proposal together for the World's Big for 246 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: a Big and First Social Impact bond to solve that problem, 247 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: and we were effectively seeking France's support to make that 248 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: bond viable, and so Bill and I met with President 249 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: Sharrock at the Elyse Palace, and I was coming from Seattle, 250 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: and I just had old shoes and didn't have I 251 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: had actually left the new shoes I bought for the 252 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: meeting back in Seattle, and so I was wearing shoes 253 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: that had a little hole in the bottom of it, 254 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: and I was just self conscious about that. And so 255 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: we sat in the meeting and the meeting went great. 256 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: President Shruck said We're not only going to make this happen, 257 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: but I'm going to direct my finance Minister, Nicholas R. 258 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: Cozy to create this project with you guys, and. 259 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: That ended up transforming global immunization and vaccinating nearly a 260 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: billion children over twenty years. But when I called Rick 261 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: to ask him about what Bill thought of the meeting, 262 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: which I thought was a home run, he was sort 263 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: of ribbing me a little bit and said, well, Bill 264 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: thought the meeting was fine from a content perspective, but 265 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: he was really concerned about your footwear. 266 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: And at the. 267 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: Time I was just a young kid working at the 268 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: Gates Foundation. I was terrified that that was actually true, 269 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: and I learned they were just making funny. 270 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: You survived that, but you accomplished that global immunization program, 271 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: you said you wanted to do something different, so you 272 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: decided to leave. What did you do next? 273 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 2: Well, I was at Gates for a while, and after 274 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: President Obama got elected, I got a phone call to 275 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: join the Obama administration. And it had always been my 276 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: dream since I left medical school to work for Gore, 277 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: that I'd get a chance to serve in an administration, 278 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 2: and so I moved to Washington, d C. 279 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: Do you want to initially to work for the Secretary 280 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: of Agriculture? Who is I guess there's still the Secretary 281 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: of Agriculture. 282 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: It's Tom Milsak. 283 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: He's had a couple of tours of duty in that position. 284 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: So you later got asked to be the head of USAID. 285 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: What is USAID? 286 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: Well, the United States Agency for International Development is America's 287 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: prime development and humanitarian agency. 288 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: Was founded by John F. 289 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: Kennedy, and it has a very clear and direct mission 290 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: and the ideas bringing dignity, security, hope, and opportunity to 291 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: the poorest parts of the world makes us all safer 292 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: and makes us all more prospers us. 293 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: So you got that job when you were fifty years old. 294 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: I got that job when I was thirty six years old. 295 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: Thirty six years old, you're running USAID. How many employees 296 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: does it have? 297 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 3: We had eleven thousand. 298 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: And did you feel qualified to run something that big? 299 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: Well, you know, at the time, I did, until you know, 300 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: the work started. So I was confident that I had 301 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: ideas and experiences that could help the agency be successful. 302 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: But it wasn't until the Haiti earthquake happened effectively on 303 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: my first week on the job, that I realized I 304 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: needed a lot of help. 305 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: So, the massive earthquake in Haiti occurred, USAID is going 306 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: to take the lead for the US and trying to 307 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: redevelop and fix the problems in Haiti. And so you 308 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: go to the OVO office and you hear something you're 309 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: not supposed to hear, which is the Vice President United States, 310 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: Joe Biden, now the president saying is this guy really 311 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: able to lead this effort or something like that? Is 312 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: that right? 313 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? 314 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: So President Obama called me actually the day before, right 315 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: after the earthquake happened, and said, first time I took 316 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: a call from a president and said, Roger, I put 317 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: you in charge of a whole of government efforts, civilian 318 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: and military to respond to this tragic crisis, which ultimately 319 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: led to more than two hundred and fifty thousand people 320 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: perishing just two hours from our shores. And so the 321 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: next morning, in an Oval office briefing, I got there 322 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: just a few minutes early because I. 323 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: Was terrified of being late. Your shoes were OK, and 324 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: my shoes were fine. 325 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: I walk in and President Obama and Vice President Biden 326 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: were over by the window, Biden facing out and Obama 327 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: facing the sort of door when you come in. 328 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: So he saw me come in, and. 329 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: Vice President Biden was in the middle of saying to 330 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: President Obama, are you sure about this guy, rod Shaw. 331 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: He's only thirty six, He just got here to Washington. 332 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: And the person who leads FEMA, Craig Fugate, has much 333 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: more experience leading these efforts. Maybe we should ask Craig 334 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: to help. And Obama saw me and walked over right 335 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: away and said, rog come in, sit down. And then 336 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: next thing I knew, everybody poured into the meeting room 337 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: and we very quickly got right into the work. 338 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: What ultimately happened in Haiti? What did the United States 339 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: government do through us AID that helped ameliorate the problem, 340 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: not solve it ameliorate it. 341 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: Well, in reality, we mounted really the fastest and largest 342 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: humanitarian response in history at that point, and we did 343 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: it because we were and we were able to do it, 344 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: not because USA did everything, but because we were able to, 345 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: as I write about in the book, kind of open 346 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: the turnstiles and invite in colleagues from the Federal Emergency 347 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: Management Agency as well as the Department of Defense, and. 348 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: Use all of those assets and capabilities. 349 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: So people must say to you all the time, you've 350 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: done a lot of things, you should run for office. 351 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: Do you ever think about running for something? 352 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 3: I do? 353 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: Since I was a little kid, I've always been enamored 354 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: of the concept of public service, and frankly, my time 355 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: in government taught me that if we have the right 356 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: kinds of leaders in place, we can get a lot done. 357 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: So you had decided it for a while, You've been 358 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: at the USAID for a while, maybe it's time to 359 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: leave and do something else, and then all of a 360 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: sudden another crisis comes along both law. So what was 361 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: your responsibility and how did you tackle that problem? Well? 362 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: USA carried the responsibility of working with the Centers for 363 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: Disease Control to really mount a response in West Africa 364 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: and contain and ultimately limit the disease before it spread 365 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: around the world. 366 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: So after ebola problem is more or less solved, I 367 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't say you're eliminating Ebola complete, but it addressed a 368 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: problem you decided finally, and you then pursued what I've 369 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: called the highest calling of mankind, which is private equity. 370 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: You start up, you set up your own firm to 371 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: invest in i'd say, electrification projects around the world. Is 372 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: that right? 373 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: That's correct. 374 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: You had two very big backers, Dick Blum was one 375 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: of them, and David Bonderman the other. 376 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: Yes, We started the process of building a small firm 377 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 2: partnered closely with a larger firm, TPG, and started identifying 378 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: projects and raising funds. And I got about a year 379 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: and a half two years into that, about a year 380 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: and a half into that, and the opportunity at the 381 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: Rockefeller Foundation came up, and I ultimately felt that that 382 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: was more aligned with what I wanted. 383 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: So you became the president of the Rockefeller Foundation. How 384 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: many years ago now is not six? 385 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 3: Now? 386 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: The Rockefeller Foundation is very famous over one hundred years, 387 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: it's not nearly as big as the Gates Foundation. So 388 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: how do you deal with the challenge that people think 389 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: you have unlimited amounts of money, but you really don't. 390 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: You know, our resources really should be society's risk capital 391 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: to solve tough problems, and we think of it that way. 392 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: So we're not trying to pay for solutions at scale. 393 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: We're really trying to build partnerships that either allow companies 394 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 2: to build out renewable electrification to reach people who are 395 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 2: very poor and make that profitable and viable on a 396 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: commercial basis, or get governments to do things that are 397 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: transformational like we did during the COVID crisis here in 398 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: the United States. 399 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: So do you worry about the problems of the dysfunction 400 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: of the US government sometimes? I mean, clearly we see 401 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: the US government of Congress can't get us back together 402 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: and passing bills so forth. Is that something you address? 403 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about that. 404 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: We work on that every day, because whether we're working 405 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 2: to expand diagnostic testing during the COVID crisis here in 406 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 2: the United States or working to reinvest in global development 407 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: efforts abroad, US government leadership is almost always critical to success. 408 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: And the truth is, if you work behind the scenes quietly, 409 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: as you know you can get Republicans and Democrats to 410 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: collaborate and partner, and you can find those partners who 411 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: want to do the right things. They're not always the 412 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 2: loudest voices, they're not usually screaming on cable news, but 413 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: they are in fact the ones who make things happen. 414 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: Let's go through some of the leaders for whom you've worked. 415 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: Al Gore, I don't know. If you work that closely 416 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: with him, you've got to know him a bit. What 417 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: kind of leader was he or is he? Well? 418 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 2: I worked less closely with Al Gore. I was a 419 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: very junior member of his campaign, and I've gotten to 420 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: know him more in recent years as we focused on 421 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 2: climb Change, and I just think he's extraordinarily smart, very 422 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: very disciplined, and extremely persistent in his beliefs. 423 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: What about Barack Obama, how do you find him as 424 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: a leader? 425 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: Well, President Obama, I learned a lot from just by 426 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: watching the way he worked, And in my view, he 427 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: had this unique ability to be extremely determined, passionate, and 428 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: also praeternaturally calm in any given moment. But you sort 429 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: of knew that underneath that calm was an absolute determination 430 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: to sort of win in the long run, whether winning 431 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: was on a major foreign policy issue or on some 432 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: domestic transformation of our economy. 433 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: What about Joe Biden. 434 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, at the time Vice President Biden was you know, 435 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 2: he was just so personable, Like, especially during my some 436 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: tough moments. I gave a speech called the National Prayer 437 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: Breakfast Speech and was actually quite nervous about it for 438 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 2: a number of reasons. And he was the kind of 439 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 2: leader who'd come and put his arm around you and say, 440 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: you know, you got this in much more colorful ways. 441 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: What about Hillary Clinton? You've worked with her when she 442 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: was Secretary of State. What was that like? 443 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: Well, I learned from Secretary Clinton just the power of toughness. 444 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: Like there are times, especially in government, where you take 445 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: hits and where people critique what you're doing if you're 446 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: trying to be a change agent and trying to make 447 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: change happen, And I learned early on from her that 448 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: there is a woman who's taken a lot of hits 449 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: and just keeps going. And if you care about what 450 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: you're doing, and you believe you're trying to help other 451 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: people and you see a path to making a difference, 452 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: you have to have a strong shell. 453 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: So as you look back on your career, what are 454 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: you most pleased that you have achieved so far? 455 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 3: Well, the big bets that worked. 456 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: The effort to vaccinate a billion children and save sixteen 457 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: million child lives over two decades through the establishment of 458 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: the Global Vaccine Alliance, The effort to prevent ebola from 459 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: spreading out of West Africa and into the rest of 460 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: the world when the CDC was estimating one point six 461 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: million cases and we ended a bola through bold action 462 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 2: with less than thirty thousand cases and less than eleven 463 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: thousand debts and not one case of transmission in the 464 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: United States. And the big bet we're taking on right 465 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: now to reach a billion people who live in energy 466 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: poverty with renewable electrification. We already have projects with line 467 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: of sight to serving seventy seven million of them. 468 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: Those are the things I'm most proud of. 469 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: So people must say to you all the time, you've 470 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: done a lot of things. You should run for office. 471 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: Do you ever think about running for something I do? 472 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: Since I was a little kid, I've always been enamored 473 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: of the concept of public service, and frankly, my time 474 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: in government taught me that if we have the right 475 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: kinds of leaders in place, we can get a lot done. 476 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,719 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 477 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 478 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.