1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you? 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: From House top works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Christen, I'm Molly, So Molly, I want 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: you to be honest with me right now. Okay, I'm 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: always answered with your question. Have you ever faked sick 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: to get out of work? That's that's so mean, Kristen 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Molly on the spot. No, I'm never faked sick to 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: get out of work. Ah, that's so good of you. 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: I have I'm not gonna lie, uh because every now 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: and then we we we fake sick to you know, 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: get out of work or get out of school. I 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: dare someone to email me to say they have never 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: faked an illness before, because I think that you're lying. Um. 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: But the reason why I'm thinking about this is because 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. But sometimes when I was 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: a kid, when I would fake sick, I would also 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: enjoy the attention that I would get from it. Yeah, 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: because that meant Mom would make her famous homemade chicken 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: noodle soup and um, I would get to watch movies 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: and it was kind of awesome. Yeah. I mean I 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: always got beverages with straws when I was sick with 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: straws because my mom said that, you know, it helped 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: you to drink from a straw and you're sick. Now 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: that I'm older, I see how that's not the best 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: medical advice, but it really seemed to work when I 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: was little. With straws are still great. Um, But thinking 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: sick every now and then eat everybody does it. But 29 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: if you pathologically fake sick in order to get all 30 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: those straws and chicken nooddle soup, you might have a 31 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: case of chals. Yes. Now, this is I think one 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: of the strangest things I've ever come across. Kristen Uh. 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: It's it's called a factitious disorder, which means that people 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: purposely exaggerate, invent, or even cause disease symptoms within them selves. Now, 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: it's not being like hyperchondriac. You don't just like here 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: about an illness and think you have it. It's more like, 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: you know, um, some people, you know we were reading 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: about this internet. Some people like inject urine into their blood, 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: or blood into urine to mess with their samples. Some 40 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: people might take laxatives, so they have a lot of 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: gastro intestinal symptoms. It's basically faking sick, so sick that 42 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: you need to go to a doctor or you are 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, you get a lot of attention from all 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: the people around you, right. And it should also be 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: distinguished from malingering, which is when people pretend to be 46 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: sick for a financial gain or to get out of work. 47 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: Munchausen is all about the attention. And this isn't something 48 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: that you'll find in the d s M. It's not 49 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: record recognized that with a formal diagnosis by the American 50 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association, and it is highly controversial because a it's 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: hard to get someone with Munchausen to admit that they're 52 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: faking and be uh. It happens a lot with mothers 53 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: and children, which will get into very soon, right real quick, 54 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: before we get into the mother part, which is why 55 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: it's why we're talking about it on our podcast. Um. 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: Some of the risks that researchers think might lead to 57 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: a case of Moonshausen syndrome include history of abuse in 58 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: some form, serious illness during childhood, a relative who was 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 1: seriously ill or died, poor self esteem, or some sort 60 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: of personality disorder. So basically, this form of trauma, let's say, 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: leads you to crave attention later in life so that 62 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: you will do awful things to yourself, you know. Basically 63 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: one of the symptoms was agreeing to undergo medical tests 64 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: even if they're really painful and invasive, because who would 65 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: want to put themselves through that? Um So they're saying that, 66 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: you know you, that's how bally will crave attention. They 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: would be like, yes, sign me up for that spinal tap. 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: Beyond just you know, a normal um desire to get well. 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: And this was first identified in nineteen fifty one by 70 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: the British physician Richard Asher who Slee noticed this like 71 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: band of wanderers who would trek from hospital to hospital 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: just to fake all these illnesses. Hospital hobos hospital a 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: band of hospital hobos, and he wrote about the condition 74 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: in the medical journal The Lancet, and he named it 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: after a colorful fellow named Baron Karl Friedrich Munchausen, who 76 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: was a German officer who served in the Russian cavalry 77 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: repeated military campaigns against the Turks, and he became very 78 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: well known for his grandiose storytelling you can never believe 79 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: a word, the guy said, don't believe a Munchausen. So 80 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: that's why, you know, if someone comes in and they're 81 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: complaining of, you know, a sore throat, and body treated 82 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: them ten times for you know, really wacky things in 83 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: the past. You know, that's sort of where the name 84 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: came from. Now we've got asher in one. But then 85 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: in ninety seven a British pediatrician named Roy Meadow identifies 86 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: mothers who are causing or fabricating their children's illness, and 87 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 1: so it's called Munchausen syndrome by proxy because the mothers 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: use their children as proxies to get the attention from 89 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: a doctor and also from the loved ones that will 90 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: naturally gather around when you've got a sick child. And 91 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: just for example, in one case, he found out about 92 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: a six year old girl named Kay who had been 93 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: admitted to the hospital twelve times for urinary tract infection 94 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: and had been treated with eight different antibiotics, none of 95 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: which took. But then he found out that Kay's mother 96 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: had altered her urine samples to make it appear as 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: if the child were sick. Quite bizarre, and he found 98 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: um one parent who had essentially poisoned their child with salt. 99 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, it just sounds awful. I 100 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: think if you're any reasonable person, you would never believe 101 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: that a mother would do that to their own children. 102 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: And when when Meadow brought this up, no one did. 103 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: So he had this colleague named David south All who 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: videotaped a lot of these suspects of having the syndrome 105 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: without them knowing. So the most damning tape they found 106 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: was there was this woman who smothered her baby. That's 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: what the video tape caught. And then it showed her 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: running out and grabbing the doctors and saying, my baby 109 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: can't breathe. And the video tape was like, well, because 110 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: you smothered it, um, And so that was sort of 111 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: why helps cement this diagnosis of moon chius and by proxy. 112 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: But then, uh, south All and Meadow really dedicated themselves 113 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: to rooting out as many of these munchaus and by 114 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: proxy or m v P cases as they could, and 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: they would examine patient records, US statistics, use the secret 116 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: video surveillance, and also something called a separation test to 117 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: see if a sick child is removed from the mother 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: see if they somehow mysteriously get better again, um, and 119 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: they would try to identify these potential perpetrators and then 120 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: testify against him in court. And as a result, over 121 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: a number of following years, hundreds of mothers were forcibly 122 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: removed from their children because uh, these experts medical experts 123 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: said that they were in sventially making their children sick. Now, 124 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: one of the most prominent cases that Meadow testified in 125 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: was the case of attorney Sally Clark who lost two 126 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: children to sun infant death syndrome. And one of the 127 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: weird things that's attributed to Meadow is this thing called 128 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: Meadows law. Um. He basically said that if you have 129 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: one case of sun infant death syndrome, that's a tragedy, 130 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: if you have two in the same family, that's suspicious, 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: and if you have three, that's murder unless the parent 132 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: can prove otherwise. So he also really made this impact 133 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: in the UK of tying sids to Moon Chausen. So 134 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: now this happens to Sally Clark too, of her children 135 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: die and uh, Meadow testifies that the chance of two 136 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: such deaths in the same family is seventy three million 137 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: to one, and Clark has convicted of murder and sentenced 138 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: to life in jail. Now, the Turkey thing is that 139 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: Meadows math was off. It was way off, way off. 140 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: Actual odds of this are two hundred to one, and 141 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: so he had like statistic sickle society is writing him 142 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: in and writing the courts and talking about what a 143 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice this was. So the correct odds of 144 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: this it's actually two hundred to one. Okay, So he's 145 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: got statistical societies writing him, writing the courts saying this 146 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: is such a miscarriage of justice. His entire research attent, 147 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: you know, essentially collapses because people are like, this guy 148 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: is just making up numbers. How do you get from 149 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: two hundred to one to seventy three million to one? Right, 150 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: And not to mention that south All his old colleague, 151 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: the videotape friendly happy colleague, uh ended up accusing Sally 152 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: Clark's husband of smothering one of his sons just because 153 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: of just random behavior that he saw on the tape, 154 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: and so he basically lost all of his credibility as well, 155 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, some of those early videotape cases. It came 156 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: out later that the woman was essentially disturbed because This 157 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: is more than just a mental illness. This is a 158 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: calculated decision that women make to harm their child in 159 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: order to go to attention. It's not you know, there 160 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: was really a separation. Some the stuff we read about 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: other mental disorders you might ascribe to these women. So 162 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: this largely discredited Meadow in the UK. And I'll be 163 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: interested to see if we have any British listeners out 164 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: there who can remember Meadow and what the what the 165 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: perception of him is today. Now, the tale of Sally 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: Clark has a really sad story. She was released from jail, 167 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: as were many of the people that Meadow testified against. However, 168 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: she died, likely of suicide in two thousand seven. Yeah, 169 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: they said that she just never first of all, never 170 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: got over the death of her two sons, and then 171 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: on top of that, she was completely vilified for supposedly 172 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: murdering them. And even after she won her appeal of 173 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: having spent a few years in jail, it was just 174 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: the psychological toll was just too much. And this is 175 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why Munchausen by proxy is so controversial, because, um, it's, 176 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: first of all, it's kind of taking this claim of 177 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, meddling mothers who are actually just crazed and 178 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: attention starved and separating them from their children and during 179 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: them in jail when in fact their children might actually 180 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: be sick. But um, there are some warning signs out 181 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: there that something might actually be going on, right, you know. 182 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: I think when we were researching this, what struck me 183 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: was there essentially an equal number of people who are 184 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: saying it's overdiagnosed and an equal number people saying it's 185 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: under diagnosed. So thanks to meadows hysteria, there are people 186 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: saying it happens all the time and others who are 187 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: saying this is really rare. Yeah, because just for a 188 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: contrast to Sally Clark, I think that we could, um 189 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: an interesting example to look at here in the US 190 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: would be the case of a Florida mother named Kathy Bush. 191 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: Her daughter Jennifer, spent six hundred forty days in the 192 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: hospital undergoing forty operations, including the removal of her gallbladder, appendix, 193 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: and parts of her intestine from ages two through nine, 194 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: and she became a tireless advocate for a chronically ill child, 195 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: even appearing with Hillary Clinton back in the day in 196 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,359 Speaker 1: her quest for healthcare reform. And then was later convicted 197 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: for making her daughter sick by infecting her feeding tubes 198 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: and giving her damaging drugs in So, you know, on 199 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: the one hand, we've got you know, Sally Clark, and 200 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: then we have Kathy Kathy Bush. So you know what, 201 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: what do you even look for? Where do you draw 202 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the line between just a concerned mother with a sick 203 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: child and someone who's actually doing something? All right, So 204 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the things that doctors look for. 205 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: And again, this isn't gonna wrap things up for anyone 206 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: because so many of these um symptoms are pretty contradictory. 207 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: All right, So let's go over some of the warning 208 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: signs that a doctor may consider when he's got a 209 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: child that he just can't care. You know, this doctor, 210 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: this child keeps coming in, has repeated and unexplained illnesses 211 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: that never seemed to get better. The symptoms only occur 212 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: when the mother is present. Now, this will get tricky 213 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: because if your child is sick, why would you leave it? 214 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: The mother is probably you know, going to be present 215 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: a large percentage of the time. If the mother appears 216 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: to know a lot about medicine, that will tip people 217 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: off because you know, if they know that, oh, if 218 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: I do this to the feeding tube, then it will 219 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: harm them. This way, they know a lot about how 220 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: to hurt a kid. But also in the age of 221 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: the internet, a lot of people just know how things work. 222 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: If you hear your kid is sick, then you might 223 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: come to the excellent website how Stuff First dot com 224 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: and find out everything you can know about it. So again, 225 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:27,119 Speaker 1: some of these symptoms just seems so um, possibly confusing 226 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: and and you know, and possibly like good parenting exactly. 227 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: That's why it gets so controversial. Um. Now, this is 228 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: one that you know, might might help you to the 229 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: heart of it. Although the mother stays with the child 230 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: all the time while while here she's in the hospital 231 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: and tends to himmer her well, she may not appear 232 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: as concerned about the child's well being as a healthcare 233 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: professionals who are providing treatment. So basically she is more 234 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: attentive to the healthcare professionals and getting their attention then 235 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: necessarily the attention that they're giving to the child. And 236 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: that's something that we'll talk about it in And it 237 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: is this kind of odd psychological attachment to doctors um. 238 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: And also you know, willingness to be in the hospital, 239 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: willingness to say, hey, like we were talking about earlier, 240 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: give the kid a spinal tap needs, especially if you're 241 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: doing it doctor. And so let's say that this kind 242 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: of stuff is going on and you do actually have 243 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: a woman, because we keep saying women, like, what is 244 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: it the time the mothers the mother? UM. So the 245 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: six primary categories of abuse are usually just inventing the symptoms, 246 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,119 Speaker 1: tampering with test results to encourage a diagnosis, UM, deliberately 247 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: not providing child with nutrients it needs to get better, 248 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: triggering symptoms using a low toxicity poison such as a laxative. 249 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: A lot of these cases, we'll see what mothers will 250 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: give their children UM diarrheal medicine or UM stuff that 251 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: will make them UH. Using a high toxicity poison on 252 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: a child, such as using insulin to induce hypoglycemia and 253 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: then make the child lose consciousness by deliberately smothering him 254 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: or her. And on top of that, we have the 255 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: most commonly fabricated symptoms including fits, fainting, athnea, hyperactivity, asthma, vomiting, diarrhea, allergy, 256 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: and rashes. And I think that there's obviously if a 257 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: mother brings a kid into the hospital and says, you know, 258 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: last night, my kid had a temperature. But then the 259 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: kid shows up without the temperature. You would believe the 260 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: mother who said our kid up had a temperature, right, So, um, 261 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: you know it's these That's sort of how a symptom 262 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: can be faked. Just to give me an example of 263 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: how that could happen, which is part of why diagnosing 264 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: is again hard, because um, the separation tests. We're talking 265 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: about this earlier. If they separate the kid from the 266 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: mother and then it stops throwing up because the mother 267 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: is not around to you know, give the kid ipocac anymore, 268 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: then you know, people are like, oh, that must be 269 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, the mother giving the kid up acac. But 270 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: sometimes just when treatment stops, you know, symptoms like that 271 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: go away. We read one example of a woman who 272 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: her child was going through this really extre treatment and 273 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: when the when the doctors were like, oh, I don't 274 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: think these kids are that sick. We're going to stop 275 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: the treatment their symptoms when I but it was just 276 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: a result of the treatment, not necessarily the mother's doing. 277 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: And I think that this would also be a good 278 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: time to point out that this is a very rarely 279 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: diagnosed condition. I think in the UK, what if this 280 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: happens in the UK. We've we've discovered anyway. UM in 281 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: the UK there about fifty cases per year. But the 282 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: question is, welling for those searcher cases per year, why 283 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: on earth with these mothers intentionally hurt their children? Because 284 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: this isn't just physical abuse, it's it's a whole different 285 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: kind of abuse because it's so much tied to this 286 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: idea of needing the attention from these health care workers. Right, 287 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: these women seem to have this need to basically just 288 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: interact with a doctor UM in a way that's not confrontational. 289 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: It's why a woman might choose to do moens house 290 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: in my proxy, as opposed to just becoming, you know, 291 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: faking illness in herself. And there was a lot of 292 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: um talk. In one article we read about how being 293 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: the mother of a sick kid allows you to be 294 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: kind of the ideal mother. You know, you are obviously 295 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: concerned about your kids well being because you're there in 296 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: the hospital and you've got a person whose job it 297 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: is to pay attention to you and to help you. 298 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: And so they were saying that some women just crave 299 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: that you know, approval and interaction with you know, a 300 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: pillar of society, as as doctors are. And if i'm 301 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: a quote Herbert Schreier in his book Hurting for Love, 302 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: these mothers are just seeking a reparative relationship because they 303 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: felt they weren't valued in their family of origin. Now, 304 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: Shreier also goes on to discuss the erotomniacal pursuit of 305 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: effective fallic power these women have so well. He says 306 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: that in a lot of instances, you find a missing father, 307 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: so that you know, like people who like the symptoms 308 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: we ran down of moon chaws and earlier, people have 309 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: these traumas in their past and somehow being in a 310 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: place that is designed to make you well, you know, 311 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: they think there's some link of these people going trying 312 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: to find this wellness cure for some deep, dark past hurt. 313 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: But you know, there are plenty of people who do 314 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: have really troubled childhoods who don't grow up and put 315 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: salt in their kids food. But again, these kind of 316 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: allegations are so controversial because a lot of times it's 317 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: just going to boil down to disagreements between mothers and 318 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: healthcare workers between what is best for their children also 319 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: in a day and age when, like you said, if 320 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: you think that you have a collection of symptoms that 321 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: might be some kind of illness or disorder, you can 322 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: go online to how Stuff Works dot com or to 323 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: something like web md and put everything in and diagnose 324 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: yourself with say coal and cancer, you know, and um, 325 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: and it just kind of gets in your head and 326 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: it might lead you to, you know, getting into these 327 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: hew debates with doctors and demanding tests and insisting that 328 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: you do have something. And it was interesting. In one 329 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: article it pointed out that if fathers were doing the 330 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: same type of thing, they would just say they would 331 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: actually praise him and say, oh, wouldn't wouldn't involved parent here, right, 332 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: But with mothers are saying, wow, this meddling mother really 333 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: needs to go home. So it's it's very interesting. I 334 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: don't know if I would be able to spot a 335 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: case of a meddling mother versus uh, possible moon chaws 336 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: and mother. Um, they do say that moon chaws and mothers. 337 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: You know, once the kid dies, obviously you don't want 338 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: that to be the time you can figure out, uh 339 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: a case of it. But they have no remorse and 340 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: at the funeral they usually seem kind of excited about it. 341 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: You know, they're reveling in all this attention. They're probably 342 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: talking more of the doctor than they are too family members. 343 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: And if you remember the scene from the sixth Cents, Uh, 344 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: there's a one of the dead people that Haley Joel 345 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: Osma scenes as this girl who was poisoned by her 346 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: other and Haley Joe Osmond sees the mother at the 347 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: funeral and they're already whispering in the background like, oh, 348 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: now she has another sick child and so uh it's 349 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: it is. Uh. It can be a deadly cycle. And 350 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: because they don't show any remorse or admitting that they 351 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: didn't wrong, that's why they'll try and separate the child 352 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: and usually not give them back. There's usually very little 353 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: hope for reconciliation once you've had an allegation of moon 354 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Chausen thrown against you. Um. Now, because these allegations are 355 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: so harmful and can easily result in social services stepping 356 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: in and taking the child away from them, um, some 357 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: mothers are actively lobbying against these um even being allowed 358 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: to happen. For instance, we found this organization Mama is 359 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: the acronym and its mothers against Moonschausen by proxy allegations. Um. Basically, 360 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: they say, our our mission is to stop the assault 361 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: on innocent parents from Minscheusen by proxy allegations and to 362 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: reveal the ulterior motives of accusers, prevent the broad label 363 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: from being used in the court of law, and hold 364 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: accountable any physician who acts as judge and jury. Because 365 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: as a mother, and I think that I can say this, 366 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: not being I'm not a mother. I'm not a mother, 367 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: but I think that I can put myself in their 368 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: shoes for a minute and imagine, you know, maybe as 369 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,239 Speaker 1: an aunt. Okay, let's say, if I am, you know, 370 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: any more protective of what my my child than I 371 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: am of my niece and nephews, then Lord only knows, 372 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: you know what kind of hell I would raise if 373 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: I thought that my child was in some kind of 374 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: physical danger. So I can see, I can see kind 375 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: of both sides of it. You know, doctors want to 376 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: make sure that they're doing the best for the children. 377 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: So do mothers, and there can certainly be a conflict 378 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: of interest there at some point. But you know, doctor 379 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: is doing to step in and stop cases with child abuse, 380 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: which I think is I mean that's essentially what Monchen is. 381 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: So that's why it's going to be controversial for for 382 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: a while to come. I think yeah, But I think 383 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: it is also too worth noting that it is extremely rare. Yes, 384 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: so according to some people that's the thing. Over diagnosed, 385 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: trender diagnosed. We don't know. We'd love to hear what 386 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: you guys think about this. Our email addresses mom stuff 387 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: at has stuffworks dot com, and we have a few 388 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: listener emails to read. I'll start with one that's not signed. Um. 389 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: This is about the what constitutes an eaing disorder podcast. 390 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: The listener writes, I suffered from believe Me on and 391 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: off for ten years at time for the the binge purge 392 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: cycle consume my life so much that I abandoned friends 393 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: and other fun experiences in order to preserve my disorder. 394 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: During the worst of it in high school, no one 395 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: ever called me out on my admirable behavior a relationship 396 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: with food, and simultaneously, it was my biggest fear that 397 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: someone would. However, now I would suggest anyone that suspects 398 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: a friend suffers from believe me and to let her 399 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: or him know that you support him or her and 400 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: love them no matter what. And that if they need 401 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: someone to discuss any challenges with you or there with 402 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: non judgmental ears. Eventually, in college I had friends I 403 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: could talk about my problems with and have been totally 404 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: on binge purge free for two and a half years. 405 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: I think many people over simplifying disorders when actually there 406 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: are symptoms of deeper issues that will only heal by 407 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: being acknowledged. So don't be afraid to say something. All right, Well, 408 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: I've got an email here in regard to the same podcast, 409 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: and this is from Hannah, and she says, I was 410 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: totally astonished that you skipped over the very important point 411 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: of self esteem. For most women with eating disorders, especially 412 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: young women, this is a huge factor. For high school 413 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: girls with anorexia and bulimia, poor self image is often 414 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: the reason they start to starve themselves or vomit up 415 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: all their food. From there, it progresses to a legitimate 416 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: brain disorder, but it often starts to choice and myself. 417 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm in high school, and I can tell you that 418 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: many many girls feel overwhelmed and completely without control over 419 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: their lives. This is usually how destructive behaviors like cutting, 420 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: eating disorders, or drug use begin As a desperate attempt 421 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: to exercise control over whatever aspects of their lives they 422 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: can and diffuse emotional pain. Regarding your advice, I tried 423 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: several times to tell a friend with an eating disorder 424 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: about my concern and it didn't help, no offense, but 425 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: it probably wouldn't be very helpful in other cases. Either. 426 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: Telling someone that you love and care about them and 427 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: want them to be healthy is definitely a good idea 428 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: because it helps them know that you're there for them 429 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: and that you're not judging them. But I don't think 430 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: it would ever make them stop their disorder outright. It 431 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: might even give them a rush of power that they 432 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: can keep going, that they can keep doing what they're 433 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: doing and you can't do anything about it. And as 434 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I said, it's largely about control. I think that even 435 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: if it costs your friendship, the most important stuff you 436 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: can take is to get the problem out into the open. 437 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: So thank you, Hannah. All right, so if you want 438 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: to send us an email, it's Mom step at how 439 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. During the week, we've got a 440 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: blog called how to Stuff and we have an article 441 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: if you would like to read more about the Moonschausen 442 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: syndrome and Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Hand on over to 443 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot Com for more on this and 444 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Because it how stuff works dot Com. 445 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Want more House stuff Works, check out our blogs on 446 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: the house stuff Works dot Com home page. M H 447 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry. 448 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: It's ready, are you