WEBVTT - BONUS: Caroline Fraser’s Prairie Fires 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:06.360 Hello Wilder listeners, it's producer Emily again with one more 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:09.920 very special episode. Thank you for your patients. As we're 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.560 working on our final episode and it's going to be 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.200 well worth the wait. I promise it's the episode where 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.119 Glennis will come to some big conclusions on how to 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.160 think and feel about Laura Ingles Wilder. Over the past year, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.560 as we've researched and recorded the show, one of the 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:26.800 people who's really shaped our thinking on Laura and her 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.760 work is Caroline Fraser, author of the Poll surprize winning 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.360 biography of Laura Prairie Fires. You've heard us mentioned Prairie 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.520 Fires a lot in the show, and you've even heard 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.279 Caroline in previous episodes. But as we're coming to some 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.320 big conclusions on all things Laura, we thought it was 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.800 worth airing her full interview before we get started. I 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.840 actually have a request for you. We're still accepting listener 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.000 voice memos for our final episode. So if listening to 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.960 Wilder has changed your thinking on Laura and the Little Housebooks, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.560 or just made you feel some big feelings about topics 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.160 like children's literature, native American representation, how we portray American history, 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.880 we want to hear your thoughts. Just record a voice 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.880 memo through the app that's preloaded onto whatever phone you 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.680 have and email it to Wilder podcast at gmail dot com. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.920 If you do, we might just respond to it in 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.959 our final episode. We can't wait to hear your voices. 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:26.440 Now on with the show, Caroline. Thank you. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.679 We're all such huge fans of your book, and everyone 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.679 we've interviewed for this podcast is just blown away by it. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.360 So I think my first question is before we just 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.840 get to the direct writing of the book. I'm just curious, 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:41.240 I know because I've been reading you for quite some time, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:42.839 but I'm just curious if you could talk a little 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.520 bit about what your relationship to Laura was prior to 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:50.880 doing Prairie Fires and how you came to write this book, 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.000 which is such a huge undertaking. 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.400 Yeah. Well, you know, I read the books when I 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.000 was a kid, and like millions of other kids, I 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.560 just loved them. They were among the books that I 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.240 read over and over again. That's what I did with 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.680 you know, the things that I really responded to was 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.160 just to kind of have it on a loop almost 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.440 and just be constantly rereading. And they became very well 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:25.760 known to me and then some years later I had 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.880 the experience which I think a number of other fans 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.200 of The Little House Books had, which was that I 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.080 was listening to MPR in the morning before going to 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:42.080 work and heard a piece about a biography of Laura's daughter, 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.880 Rose Wilder Lane that made the argument that Rose was 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.120 really the author of The Little House Books. And I 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:56.600 was just you know, shocked and floored kind of by 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.560 hearing that, and was just outraged and kind of like, 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.520 you know, could this really be true? And that was 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.960 the thing that kind of set me on writing initially 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:13.200 first about that biography and the question of Wilder's authorship 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.639 of her books. And that was what led many years 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:21.760 after that to my editing The Little House Books for 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.880 the Library of America. And it was really preparing that 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.040 edited version. I mean, we didn't edit the text, but 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.040 I wrote little notes on certain things in the text 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.280 and wrote a timeline of Wilder's life. And as I 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.680 was writing that timeline, I came to feel like there 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.040 was a really great story about her life that hadn't 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.320 really been told yet. I mean, there were biographies for children, 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.960 there was a biography for adults, which was quite good, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:58.480 but I didn't really feel that the relationship between Laura 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.320 and Rose had really been lord and the authorship question 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.520 was still kind of hanging out there. 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.240 We're going to get to Rose in a bit because 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.960 I have a number of questions, But since we're on 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.560 the writing of the book, I'm curious. You spent so 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.760 much time with Laura the real person to write this biography. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.120 Did your sense of her change? How do you think 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.240 about her now that you know so much about her? 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:27.520 Is there a gap. 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.040 Between who she was to you in the Little House 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.719 books growing up, in the fully flashed person that you 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.039 have come to bring to the page now? 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.480 Oh? Sure, yeah. I mean I think as a child 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.039 reading the books, I just sort of took the books 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.640 at face value, which I think a lot of readers 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.240 did and have and probably continue to do that. As 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.480 a kid, I didn't have a particularly sophisticated understanding of 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.359 what was the difference between fiction and nonfiction, and so 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:03.360 I just Okay, these books are by Laura Ingalls Wilder, 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.880 and they're about Laura Ingalls, so they must be true. 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.279 So that was who Laura was to me, was the 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.040 Laura in the books, the way that she has presented, 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.440 but over the years as an adult and doing the 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.240 work on the biography, you know, it came to see 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.000 that she was a much much more complex person than 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:28.840 I had ever appreciated, and that her adult life was really, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.960 you know, beset by all kinds of you know, tragedies 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.120 that are not really dealt with in the books except 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.800 for you know, the last one that was not published 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.880 until after she had died. And I also, you know, 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.760 came to appreciate that her relationship with her daughter was 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.599 very complex and was itself you know, kind of a 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.800 tragedy in her life that was just you know, never 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.520 resolved in the way that a lot of relationships between 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.599 mothers and daughters are not resolved, although theirs was possibly 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.200 worse than some in the sense that they worked together. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.200 You know, they had a very long and complicated working 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:14.080 relationship that itself engendered all kinds of guilt and shame 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.080 and you know joy too. I mean, I don't want 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.600 to say that it was all bad, but it was 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:26.200 very complicated in Something that you know, I think has 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.760 really stayed with me is the sense that we love 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.760 the Little House books in part because they give us 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.480 this idea of a kind of ideal family that even 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.600 though they went through all these tribulations and adventures and difficulties, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:45.040 they still remained a cohesive, loving family. But in her 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:49.760 own life, you know, Wilder wasn't really able to achieve that. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.320 Maybe it's not achievable, but I think for her it 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:59.119 was a real struggle to maintain the relationship with her daughter. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.080 Seems to have maintained it with her husband to some degree. 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:04.960 I think you say in the book which she described 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.000 it as the weir in great sympathy with each other. 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.600 This doesn't use the word love necessarily, but I do 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.080 get the sense that that marriage at least was very 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.480 close and Almonso had a very high tolerance. It sounds 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:17.880 like for complicated women. 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:26.080 Yeah, for sure, yes she you know, that relationship was strong. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.640 I think till the end, although beset by all kinds 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.920 of difficulties and things. I think they probably never really 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.520 talked about or addressed directly, because that was just how 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.080 you live. You know, if somebody had an illness or 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:46.280 disability or you know, as Almanto did, did you talk 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.600 about it? Probably not, And I don't think that they 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:50.320 probably did. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.240 It almost seems like a survival mechanism, right, I think. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.480 And what you just raised about how complicated and difficult. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.000 Her life was like to talk about why she sat 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.480 down to write the books, and the divide between how 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.120 hard her life was and the way she manages to 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.720 depict it in the books is extremely significant to me. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.240 I'm wondering what you think about that was, if that 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.400 was shocking, or why did none of that make it 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:16.120 into the books? 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.200 Do you think they are books for children? And I 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:24.640 think that she, especially and also Rose, had a very 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.560 strong sense of what was appropriate for children, what was not, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.400 what was too much. I mean, they did show quite 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.720 a bit of the kind of desolation and desperation of 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.280 their lives in the Long Winter, that's the book that 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.360 comes closest, I think, to showing how on the edge 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:51.040 their lives were at moments. But I also think, and 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.040 this is something that became sort of clear to me 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.400 as I was writing the timeline of her life, that 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.439 there was a there was a huge element of nostalgia 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.400 in writing these books for Laura, And while I was 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.920 writing the timeline, I could see clearly that when she 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.719 and al Manzo come to the point where they have 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.080 to give up in South Dakota, that they've gone through 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.560 all these losses and tragedies and the houses burned down, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.080 and they realize they're going to have to leave, They're 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.360 going to have to leave the state and start over 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.320 somewhere else, and that that of course will necessitate leaving 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:35.800 behind her family. That leapt out to me as a 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:42.160 profound emotional moment in her life, because leaving then is 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.920 not what it is now. I mean, now you can 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.360 visit your family or relatives, even if you move halfway 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.320 across the country. You can still be in touch, you 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.160 can still have that closeness. But that just was not 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:01.240 available to her, and so it really represents a wrenching 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.520 kind of loss of her former life and of her 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:10.000 relationships to her family and what those relationships consisted of. 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:15.800 And that I think is the primary motivation behind her 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.440 wanting to write about her life. I mean, it took 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.920 a while for her to kind of figure out how 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.680 to write about it, whether it was going to be 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.800 a memoir or children's books or whatever. That was a 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.000 bit of a struggle to kind of figure out. But 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.560 she clearly wanted to do that for a very long time. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.040 And I think it's that emotion that nostalgia is so 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:44.839 powerful in the books, that keeps readers coming back to them, you. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.760 Get a sense of that wrenchingness. It always stands out 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.360 to me, and the end of these happy golden years, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.120 which is supposed to be the happy ending, and she's 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.120 fallen in love and is going off with her husband, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.920 and yet there's an aspect of tragedy to that when 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.240 she's leaving her family behind. It well, even as a child, 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:03.400 I just made me want to cry it just like 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.680 I can't believe she's leaving, right. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.240 It did make me wonder. I mean, again, we'll get 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:08.640 to Rose. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.480 But in reading these books, and then in reading your book, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.960 and in really taking a grown up understanding of relationships 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.640 to it, the sense of Paw as a child was 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.839 this very magical, exciting person, and as a grown up 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.120 I sort of look at him and think he's dragging 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.720 this family around, he can't quite support them. But part 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.880 of me, in reading them books now wonders if she 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.439 was sort of redeeming It was like an argument to 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:34.600 redeem her father's life in a way. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.720 Oh yeah, I think that's that's really true. And you 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.680 know she says something very similar to that. You know, 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.640 she acknowledged that he wasn't a great provider and you 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.000 know she said Paw wasn't a business man, he was 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.680 a poet. And you know, I forget how the rest 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.960 of the sentence goes, but she knew. I think that 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:58.800 he had his limitation to it, that he had presented, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.079 you know, real child, just to her mother for example, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:07.160 to try and you know, keep the family together and 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:11.760 in away from just complete you know, disintegration based on 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.960 you know, losing everything, which you know they approach at 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.600 various moments. I think the books are very much an 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.920 attempt to recognize and to portray the best of her father, 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.760 who she'd obviously adored and loved deeply. And you know, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.800 she again and again in the manuscripts and in her 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.800 discussions with Rose, you can see her kind of stepping 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.800 back from any printed acknowledgment that he was close to bankruptcy, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.000 or that he couldn't pay his debts or you know, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:44.800 all that stuff gets left out. 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.959 There's also sort of in the same vein all of 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.320 the energy and detail she puts towards food. And I 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.319 think reading your book again and understanding how hungry they 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.920 were and the amount of food that's in these books, 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.200 and Farmer Boy has been described us as food Oh yeah. 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.760 I think you know, the food in Farmer Boy is intense, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.600 and it makes a really interesting contrast to read that 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.400 book with the rest of the series, you know, realizing that, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.400 of course it's written during the Depression, but also kind 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:20.320 of comparing how successful el Mansa's family was as farmers 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.400 to the Engles family, which was not putting that kind 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:25.480 of food on the table. 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.199 I want to go back to your book for a second. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:28.960 I'm not the only one who responded to this, but 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.360 your decision to open the book with the US Dakota 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.880 War was very interesting to me, and I'm curious how 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:36.880 that decision came to be. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.480 What was your thinking behind that. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.880 That was one of the reasons why I wanted to 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.800 write the book in the first place. And that happened 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.880 because I was doing that work for the Library of 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:52.640 America and writing notes defining terms or you know, place 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.800 names or things that wouldn't be necessarily known to a 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.080 general audience that wouldn't you know, occur in a dictionary, whatever. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.920 And one of those things that leapt out at me 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.720 while doing that in Little House in the Prairie was 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.120 the reference to the Minnesota massacre. And I think, I mean, 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.160 how many times had I read that reference as a 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:18.080 kid reading the books, probably a dozen times, if not more. 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:23.320 And when I finally had to define what that was, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.000 I mean, it stopped me because I realized, I don't 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.960 even know what this is, Like, what is she talking about? 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.520 And so I looked it up, and I was just 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.720 blown away, you know, with the answer to what that is. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.920 I mean, I just was transfixed by the story of 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.000 that event, which was the US Dakota War of eighteen 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:50.120 sixty two. It was the most bloodiest and most horrifying 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:55.680 spectacles of American history, and certainly you know, as the 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:01.200 event that tipped off the next thirty years in terms 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:06.200 of you know, Indian policy and Indian removal and so forth. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.160 It was really quite shattering to kind of figure out 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.240 what that is. And I just thought, I have I 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.280 have to write about this. I really want to write 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:20.120 about this because it puts her entire childhood, but also 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.800 particularly the events that she covers in Little House on 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.120 the Prairie, which is the most important of the series. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.720 I think in an entirely different light than I had 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.640 ever understood before. And so I just felt like I 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.240 have to open with this. This is just in many ways, 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.760 who she was, what her life was, what her mother's relationship, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.880 and fear, intense fear of Indians. That's what that was 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.160 all about. And I was also sort of shocked at 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.760 my own ignorance, you know, having then discovered what this 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.720 is all about, Like why didn't I know about this? 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.960 You know, why doesn't everybody know about this? And certainly 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:06.280 people in Minnesota know about it. I think it's now 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.560 it's commonly taught there. But it just seemed to me 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.920 something that was just waiting to be described and discussed. 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.280 In relationship to Little House of the Prairie. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.280 It changed my entire understanding of that book. I am 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.000 fascinated that you think Little House in the Prairie is 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.360 her most important book, So I'm curious to know why 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:26.920 you think that. 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.560 I think it also is the most important historically in 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:36.440 terms of its relationship to history, and you know, the 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:42.040 history of the American Indian on the Great Plains, the 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.160 sense of what her father is doing there on that property, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:52.000 the homesteading movement, and the writing. I mean, there's amazing 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:57.960 stuff in each book, but the presentation of her childish 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:03.000 view of what she's seeing on the prairies, her reaction 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:08.840 to seeing the Indians ride away, as that chapter at 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.959 the end has it, I think raises the level of 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.600 that book to real literature. It's such a complicated book 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.480 in a way, and the ending is so is so 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:26.000 strange and keeps you wondering first her or reaction to 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.400 the seeing the Indians right away and the wanting the 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.440 Indian baby, you know, like crying out, I want that 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.120 Indian baby. Pop, you know, get me that Indian baby. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.919 It's such a weird and and just unforgettable moment about 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:49.680 the acquisitive and appropriation of white settlers on the planes, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.960 and it's just an indelible moment. But then there's also 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.440 you know, her father's kind of tantrum at the end 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.200 of you know, if I'm going to be denied this land, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.919 I'm going to just pick up and we're leaving this afternoon. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.360 It's just such a precipitous act. And that too kind 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.960 of gives you a sense of how entitled settlers were 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.359 in a way. I mean, I'm not saying this about 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.680 Paw particularly as an individual. I'm just saying, you know 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:26.120 that that's a lasting image of how people felt, how 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.560 white people felt about land that they had no title to. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.240 I mean that clearly was a direct memory. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.399 But she was much younger when she was actually in 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.240 Indian territory than she is depicted. And I was curious 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.520 that you seem to really feel strongly that that book 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.920 comes from direct memory, whereas I think I eventually read 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.080 it as a combination of her memory and stories she'd 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.080 been told by Pa growing up. 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:55.600 When Ma presumably it's probably a combination of direct memories 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.320 and reconstructing from you know, the stories she heard. But 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:05.000 I I think she absolutely remembered going across the plains, 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.600 looking out the sort of hole in the wagon cover 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.520 and seeing these prairies, you know, in the grass is 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.800 I think she totally remembered the scene where they crossed 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:22.440 the river and Paw almost loses control of the wagon 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.840 and they're nearly swept away. That seems to have been 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.760 very closely remembered. And the thing about the pepoose, which 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.479 is I mean, she said as much that this was 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.720 she remembered it and just unforgettable moment for her. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.840 You said just a little bit earlier what we know 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.280 today about history and white settlers, But she was writing 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.560 this in the thirties, so she had some understanding of 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.240 that history at her disposal, and I'm really struck now 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.320 not much of that makes it into the book, and 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.480 I think this is the source of so much of 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.639 the controversy around the book. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:05.280 I wouldn't exaggerate how much she may have known about 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:09.040 the history. There were a couple of elements that she 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.680 tried to find out the name of the chief who 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:19.360 her father may have encountered, But she didn't do very 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:24.240 much in the way of reading history that we know of, 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.359 and so I don't really know how much she knew. 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.200 She did know that the land that her father had 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.440 built on did not belong to much. She knew that 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.760 she knew he was a squatter, which is an interesting 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.840 term that she uses in letters acknowledging. Of course she 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.399 doesn't use that, I don't think in the book itself. 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.760 So I would not want to sort of, you know, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.399 bring a lot of present day expectations to try and 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.960 explain what she knew what she didn't know. I think 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.560 she knew her father was in some ways skating on 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.120 than ice in Kansas, and that that's part of why 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.159 they ended up leaving. But I don't know that she 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:17.720 had any kind of modern conceptions about the fairness, or 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:23.680 the ways in which her family was illegally appropriating things 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:24.800 that didn't belong to them. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.239 How do you feel about the more recent criticism. What 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.480 do you think is her responsibility? Was her responsibility? And 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:38.520 is this criticism fair? I guess I don't. 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:42.880 Have any problem with criticism. I mean, and I think 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:46.360 the more we do it, the better off we are. 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:52.639 The more we talk about what these books mean, about 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:59.720 what's left out, about what is included, about racism, about this, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:05.440 you know, language that is disturbing on you know, all 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:10.439 kinds of different levels. So criticism, there's nothing wrong with criticism. 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.040 What I think there's something wrong with is banning books 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:19.159 or censoring books that I don't think is appropriate. I 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.800 do think that has happened with the Little Housebooks, and 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.200 I do think there is an argument for not reading 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:32.480 these books to you know, young children in a completely 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:37.119 uncritical fashion. There have been stories about you know, Native 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:41.760 American kids going to school in Minnesota and other states 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.280 and having these books read to them, as if this 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.120 is just these books are great and just accept it. 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.040 That clearly is just not going to fly anymore. But 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.159 can you teach the books? I don't see why not. 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.600 I mean, I think you would have to discuss these 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.760 kinds of issues that, of course has become a minefield 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.919 all over the country, that whole issue. I can't do 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.840 anything about that, but I will say that I just 0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:15.880 I don't think there's any problem in criticizing or teaching 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.040 the books in a critical way, in a way that 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.879 opens up all these issues for discussion. 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.080 All right, let's dive into Rose. 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.439 When I finished your book, I wanted to write you 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.560 a letter and say, how did you spend this much 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:35.280 time with Rose? 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.199 Because she was exhausting to me. 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:44.120 Yeah, just generally speaking, what was it like to get 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:44.760 to know Rose? 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:47.320 Well? 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:51.960 I think I have similar feelings about her. She's just 0:23:52.520 --> 0:24:00.880 a kind of lavishly talented but incredibly frustrating personality, somebody 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:05.400 who has a lot to you know, offer the world 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.200 and makes a lot of really questionable decisions about how 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:13.800 to further her career, you know, in her personal life, 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:18.199 in her relationship with her mother, in her politics, you know. 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.520 And people sometimes ask me why did you talk so 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.239 much about you know, why is And it was just 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:29.960 it was absolutely inevitable, I mean, because she was wrapped 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:35.480 up so closely in the pushing her mother to do 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:41.600 this writing, in editing and revising and getting the books published, 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:46.800 and even in the post publication phase where she's trying 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.200 to control the legacy of the books and how people 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.800 think about them, and trying to craft this very political 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:58.560 understanding of their role. She lived with her mother and 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.280 with her parents, you know, on the farm for years 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:06.200 of her adult life, very critical years for the creation 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:11.320 of these books in the nineteen thirties, and so it's 0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:15.159