WEBVTT - Melt With Me 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.239 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.840 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.520 and Halloween Hangover Week continues. Rob Today, I think you 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.040 wanted to talk a little bit about melting. Yeah. So 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.520 basically the reason for this episode is that we are 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.159 publishing this the first week of November, but we were 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.440 recording it the last week of October, so we didn't 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.280 want to work on any non Halloween material the week 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.559 of Halloween. Uh So Halloween on the show is lasting 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.600 an extra week. Uh So we're going to get into 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:49.680 some topics here. They are a little bit horror themed 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.159 in places, but also I think go beyond horror and 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.600 maybe just get into a study of a very particular 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.000 symbol or metaphor in the human experience and a discussion 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.080 of what it means. You know, one of the first 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.399 movies we talked about in October this year, I think 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.720 it was the first one was was the House of 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.560 Wax movie starring Vincent Price. So we did a whole 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.840 episode about wax horror and one of the things that 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.679 you see time and again in these wax murder movies 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.760 is there's the scene where the Palace of wax burns 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.120 down and you watch all of the wax figures melting. Uh, 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:28.640 it's got to happen in every one of these stories, 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.320 and there's clearly some kind of psychological thing going on 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.560 where the imagery they're is supposed to resemble human beings 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.120 actually melting, and that's what the fascination is in. But 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.400 another thing about it that just recently struck me as 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.000 a reason to have those wax figure melting scenes is 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.480 it's almost like a way of sneaking in gore, extra 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.560 gore around the sensors. Like if you couldn't get a 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.920 melting human past you know, the m P A A 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:01.080 or whatever, you probably can get some melting humanoid wax figure. Years. Yeah, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.320 I wonder like how much violence and gore involving a 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:10.280 clear um mannequin or wax figure, you know, just a 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.320 pure effigy could you get away with um? I mean 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:16.600 to a certain extent. You see that with other things, right, 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.200 Like you hear about movies where they're like, oh, yeah, 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.480 we decided that the monster or the villain should have 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.760 green blood, because then we can use as much as 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.520 we want, but if we're red, we couldn't show it 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.160 that sort of thing. So but yeah, I think you 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:30.440 know it kind of it ties back to a lot 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.000 of the themes that we talked about in the Wax episode, 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:38.280 you know, like what happens when we watch violence involving 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.639 an effigy or some sort of sacrament involving an effigy. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.560 Uh it, you know, we we can't help but associate 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.680 then those movements, violent or otherwise with the person that 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.880 it is resembling, or like just a human in general. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.720 Uh And it's it's fitting that we kicked off our 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.240 Halloween season this year with Wax and we're going to 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.639 close it out with the Melt. Now, there are a 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:02.240 couple of ways you could look at this. One I 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.240 think is just there is a good melting scene in 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:07.360 a movie, such as in Raiders of the Lost Ark 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:11.720 has a famous classic Nazi melting scene. But then on 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:13.639 the other end of the spectrum, you can you can go, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.440 you can really embrace it to the nth degree and 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.040 go full melt movie, which is a sort of sub 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.600 genre of its own, of like horror, gore, gross out 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.800 films that are all just about people melting. Well, it's 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.160 this kind of the difference between a yeah, like a 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.720 blockbuster like Raiders, and a smaller picture or a B picture. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.680 Right like Raiders is a film that does a lot 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.520 of things exceedingly well, and one of them is the 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.720 use of a practical special effect to make it look 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.040 like someone's melting. But a lot of times with these 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.480 be with the B film, you know, you're lucky if 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.240 you get one thing that's done really well, and sometimes 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.840 like that is the that is the push with the film, 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.120 like that is the energy of the film, Like, look, 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.960 we can do a really good melting scene. Let's build 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.320 a movie around our billy to do this, or at 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.680 least our desire to do this. You know. Well, it's 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.440 kind of like how a B movie can maybe have 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.240 a budget for one star, so you can just get 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.520 Vincent Price or something, and then you try to build 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.480 it around that star. Or maybe if you just have 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.960 a budget for a really good makeup effects artists, then 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.640 you build the whole film around that. Yeah, exactly, and 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.839 and in many cases that that can be enough. Um. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.640 I also think it's certainly a case, especially with some 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.840 of these earlier pictures we're talking about, where they they 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.119 strike a chord, and they they for like there's something 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.920 about the melting human that resonates strongly with us and 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.400 makes us want to go back and re examine it. 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.160 Maybe not so deeply certainly with some of these films, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.680 but we have to come back for more. There's just 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.400 something intriguing about about the melting human. And I think 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.279 a lot of it does go back to wax effigies 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.360 and some of the things we discussed in that past episode, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.960 but in terms of just the cinnamon that we grow 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.600 up on. For my own part, and I feel like 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.599 other people probably share this cinematic legacy as well. I 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.000 think of Eights of course from eighty one, which we 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.440 just just discussed. But the other big one, of course 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.440 is the Wizard of Oz, which is not the goryous 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.640 scene ever, but a very memorable scene often seen at 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.640 a young age for the first time, in which the 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.520 wicked Witch of the West is splashed with water and 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.320 melts away into like smoking nothingness. The feeling of that 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.360 scene is very much defined by the fact that it's 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.479 water that does it. If it had been sulfuric acid 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.279 or something that supposedly melts her, that scene would be 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.719 more horrific, but the fact that she's melted by water 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.880 gives it a fairy tale kind of quality that actually 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:41.760 makes it less body horrific, less gruesome, and more magical 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.440 and and like something that would happen in a grim's 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.720 fairy tale. Yeah, yeah, exactly, something that the purity of 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.800 water is the only thing you could destroy such a 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.520 like a foul creature, right though, that would be a 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.719 hilarious ending to the movie where they find out the 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.480 secret is you've got to throw sulfuric acid on the witch. Alright, Well, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.600 we're gonna we're gonna get more into the contemplative part 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.159 of this podcast in a bit, but we need to 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.640 go ahead and talk about a few other melt movies 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.719 before we move forward, just to establish the firm ground 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.839 upon which we're going to build everything else. And I 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.240 think one of the one of the big ones is 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.359 all I don't know, maybe for some of you have 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.279 never heard of it, but a big one for me 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:27.520 is seven The Incredible Melting Man. Then the plot here is, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.800 uh was it was not original to this picture. There 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.679 have been some There's been at least one other film, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.960 probably more before it, that explored a similar contemplation, and 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.599 that is, Uh, you have an astronaut goes into space, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.120 is exposed to cosmic radiation, and he brings this home. 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.719 In this case, the radiation has caused him to melt, 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.719 and he can slow down this melting by eating human flesh. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.480 And he also has radioactive powers. If I'm remembering correctly, Uh, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.200 seems kind of similar to the plot of Monster A 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.159 Go Go, if I recall correct Yeah, and I think 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.760 there's um, there's the there's a move with Frankenstein in 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.320 the title that has a similar element, like like clearly 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.800 meets the space monster. Is that I think it had 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.880 a similar plot. Yeah, and I think there are more 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.800 films because obviously you you're dealing with the this this 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.800 one is perhaps the kind of an homage to the 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.280 radioactive cinema of the previous decades. And like this was 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.480 on everybody's mind in the post war period in the 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:21.760 in the shadow of the Mushroom Cloud, you know, this 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.160 was these were the kinds of of of myths we 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.800 kept stirring up. Now, many of you probably know this 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.360 film because it was featured on Mystery Science Theater three 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.560 thousand back in the day. And the other thing that's 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.920 really key about it is that the legendary Rick Baker 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.040 did effects on it, and the effects are quite terrifying. 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.840 Of these this like Melting Man, It's just kind of 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:46.960 like perpetually melting despite throughout the film. Um and uh, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:52.440 maybe in part because of the effectiveness of those effects. This, 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.000 this is what started out as an intended horror parody 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.480 became a straight horror film. Like the producers apparently took 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.080 comedian scenes out of the picture in order to emphasize 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.400 the horror. Uh. That's something about the Melting Man, especially 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.560 when depicted convincingly through you know, Someone's worth like Rick Baker's, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.360 that you just can't ignore. Movies don't usually go that 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.880 way during production. It's much more common for them to 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.559 go the other way, where you embrace comedy and add 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.080 more comedy in. Yeah, it's like this looks this look 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:23.920 looks dumb. Let's have it up a little bit. Let's 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.920 pretend like we meant to do this. Uh. An interesting 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.840 fact about the melt effects in this film. Um, the 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:37.080 Rick big Baker films apparently inspired uh, the effects in RoboCop. 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.480 You know, there's an infamous scene in RoboCop where one 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.920 of the Hinchmen gets toxic waste of splattered all over 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.080 them and they started melting. Yeah, a scene that really 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:48.920 shook me when I saw it way too early in 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.880 my life. Children should not watch RoboCop. No, not at all. 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.600 So in these two previous examples, we mentioned the melt 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.800 almost being in parody, uh, or you know, in the 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.400 case of RoboCop playing into sort of an ultra violent 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.000 satire of American culture. But there are more comedic examples 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.440 to consider as well. One of them, I believe you've 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:10.760 seen this, and I think we've talked about this and 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.480 before Joe, but Street Trash. It's been a long time 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.679 since I saw it, but my my friend Ben showed 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.880 it to me many many years ago, and it is 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:25.120 that is a absolutely grotesque film of the highest order. Yeah, 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:26.880 it is a it's a I guess it's supposed to 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.480 be a black comedy. Uh, you know, it's filled with gallows, humor, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.880 um and just just atrocities. It's just an atrocious film 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.720 you should not watch unless you were into atrocious nineteen 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.520 eighties cinema, even less for children than RoboCop. Yeah, it's uh, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:48.439 it is just wall to wall humans melting and disgusting nastiness. Yeah, 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.360 but the the the Key melt and it has a 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.960 fabulous melt scene in it involves this this plot element 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.120 where there is cheap liquor that's going around. I think 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.599 it's called like Tina fly Viper. Yeah. They find it 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.760 in the bay cement of a liquor store and starts 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.560 selling it and it makes people melt. Yeah. Like there's 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.640 a scene where a like a homeless individual or a 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.400 hobo or or something, um it, gets a bottle of this, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.240 starts drinking and then starts melting whilst sitting on a 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:19.040 like a discarded toilet out in a junk field, and 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.760 he melts into the toilet and then goes down the 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.120 toilet bowl. But they do it in a way where 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.800 it's like, it's not like a purely gory melt like 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.760 it has. It's kind of a technicolor melt, So it's 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.280 not actually as bloody or gross as I'm making it sound. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:38.200 It's more surreal and comic. Bookie, Well, it is gross, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.439 but as he melts into the toilet, he's turning Lisa 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.400 Frank colors, so he's like blue and green and pink 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.760 as he melts. Now, another movie that has uh, if 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.920 not absolute melting, something very much like melting troll To 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:57.559 from ah yes where. Uh So I watched troll To 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.440 probably at least fifty times when I was in college. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.080 But it's weird because now it's been a while since 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:05.800 I've seen it. We're we're about to rewatch it for 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.520 Weird House Cinema. But what I recall is there's like 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.160 nilbog milk in this town full of goblins, and when 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.720 people drink it or eat the food there, whatever it is, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.400 they get poisoned and then their bodies are reduced to 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.600 this kind of green sap as they slowly turn into 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.240 plants and green jello, and they become food for vegetarian 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.760 goblins pretty much. Yeah. So if that sounds intriguing, uh, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.840 pay attention to our feed. We'll come back and discuss 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.720 it in in full into a little bit. Another melt movie, 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.760 this one from the eighties is the Stuff. This one 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:46.559 is by the Master Larry Cohen, starring Saturday Night Live's 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.280 Garrett Morris. And this is one I haven't actually seen, 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.320 but I have seen the key melting scene in it, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.440 in which Garrett Morris kind of mutate slash slash melts 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.320 into a big blob of killer cool whip. If I recall, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.520 the real moral of the stuff is that you need 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.960 a strong f DA with good inspection provisions and regulations 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.080 on consumer goods, because I think it's like a packaged 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.440 yogurt product or something like that that ends up turning 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.520 people into into liquid in that. Let's see, what are 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.360 some other melt films that come to mind, um or 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:19.280 at least scenes that have films that have good melt 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.520 scenes in them. Uh, these are all played for straight horror. 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.400 But there's the Devil's Rain, that's where the rain melts 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.600 the Satanist. There's some melting in The Evil Dead. Obviously, 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.160 the Gremlins movies have some fabulous melting. Warlock has a 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.560 melt scene. As I recall, The Blob is actually a 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.080 wonderful melt film, and that not only is the Blob 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.040 itself very amorphous and melty, but it's it's always just 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.040 anytime it gets a person, it starts melting them, starts 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.600 dissolving them, digesting them. Uh in real grotesque time. Yeah. 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.200 The Blob, I think is a is an underrated type 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.080 of horror because something you know, if we were like 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.280 smaller types of animals, there could be real blob type 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.560 horror to worry about in the real world. I don't 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.120 think there are any major predators that would uh that 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.960 would prey on a human sized organism by digesting it 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.880 externally with enzymes. But that happens all the time to 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.840 you know, smaller types of creatures in the ocean or 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.959 in the like insect world. I mean, basically, a lot 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.640 of what a spider does to you if it catches 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.280 you is it will sort of spit enzymes into you 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.920 that dissolve your inner body parts, melt them and turn 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.480 them into a soup that the spider can suck out 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.400 of you. Do you remember the of I know the 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.280 answer to this. I know you remember these guys. But 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.680 the winged creatures and beast Master, yes, they do a 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.640 form of external digestion on the creatures they catch. They 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.199 like wrap them in their big wings and then they 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.520 just like turned to jelly and then presumably they eat 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.800 at least some of the jelly nice um. Other films, 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.520 let's see take more of a weird sigh five approach 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.720 to melting. A time cop which we've we've mentioned on 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.679 the show before, features a great melt seat when a 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.360 character comes into physical contact with their past self. Uh, 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.640 they melt away into nothingness together. I'm not sure exactly 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:16.920 c g I melt scene. Yeah, it's a c g 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.840 I melt scene which doesn't hold up as well today, 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.840 but at the time was was pretty crazy. As I 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.360 recall all c g I seemed like that in the nineties. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.080 You remember when we were all saying how good the 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.080 c G I and Mortal Kombat the motion picture was. 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.720 What's the other films that come to mind. Toxic Avenger 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:40.440 has some melting in it. Um Society by Brian Jasna 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.800 is another sort of video nasty that has a certain 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:48.400 amount of orgiastic melting between characters, pet characters melting into 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.840 each other, etcetera. There's a really spectacular melting scene in 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.400 Fright Night where the vampire is familiar in that movie, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.080 So the vampires Chris Srandon, but he's got this apparently 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.360 human help or named Billy. Uh, and this is I 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.560 don't know, there's something in a lot of vampire movies 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.560 have as like the vampire can't go out in the daytime, 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:08.360 so he's got a helper who goes out and does 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.720 stuff with him or doest to for him during the day. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.920 For example, in um in Salem's Lot, this is the 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.640 character Straker, who's played by uh, what's his name, James Mason. 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.480 There's just wonderful in the role, you know, back priest, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.840 back Shaman. Uh. But but in this movie, the James 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.760 Mason role is I can't remember the actor's name who 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.680 plays him, but the character's name is Billy. And later 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.680 in the film, when the when the characters start fighting Billy, 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.400 I think they shoot him with a revolver and they 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.120 discover he's not quite human at all. Actually, or if 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.440 he is human, he's cursed in some kind of way, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.400 because after he has killed, he melts into a green 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:49.480 puddle of of bones and goo. U is it Roddy McDowell. No, No, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.120 Roddy McDowell plays the Peter Cushing character in the movie. 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:57.040 He plays an actor who regularly plays Van Helsing type 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.320 roles in in films. Within the film, I just looked 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.600 him up. The actor's name is Jonathan Stark. Looks like 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.120 he's also in the House to the second story and 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.520 in an episode of Tales from the Crypt. Maybe we'll 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.240 have to come back to that another time. Now. Another 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.040 film that some of you might be thinking of it 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.720 involves like melting, external digestion, etcetera. Is of course David 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.680 Cronenberg's The Fly, which we we recently did, or sometime 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.520 earlier this year we did an episode on particularly we 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.880 we discussed the themes of the plasma pool UH in 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:32.200 that picture, because I I think David Cronenberg's film here 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.120 is worth focusing on, because certainly there's a lot of 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.040 meltish body heart that's going on in that film, characters 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:46.560 basically rotting and falling apart, etcetera. But the Brundle character 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.600 brings up this idea of the plasma pool is this 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.680 thing to to dive into and be reborn out off, 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.800 which itself is I think nicely represents the other side 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.960 of the coin with idea of melting uh, because it 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.520 brings with it again the idea of rebirth. And we 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.200 see a version of this in the natural world as well. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.720 It's not all just amba's digesting things. We also see 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:19.119 um this jellification, this this melting and then rebirth in metamorphosis. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.679 So we often don't realize this, but but what a 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.280 caterpillar does inside a chrystalis or cocoon is essentially a 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.359 full body melt. It digests itself, It releases enzymes that 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.960 dissolve almost all of its tissues, reducing itself to an 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:40.119 oozing goop. Only the imaginal discs survived this process, and 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.520 these develop into the adult body parts of the mature 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.720 butterfly er moth that ultimately emerges. So again, the larval 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.359 form must melt before it becomes an adult. It must 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.080 be granted within the protective frame of the crystalis or cocoon. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.000 It must give up all of its hard exteriors. It 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.000 must liqui I undergo a self digestion, become an ouze, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.359 and then that ouze becomes the butterfly. It is weird 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.359 to think about, if you focus on it for a second, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.920 that across every generation of humans, the body plan has 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:19.600 to return to a mass of undifferentiated cells that you 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.679 know you you basically turn into a little lump of google. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.359 And then, of course can the body can be reconstituted 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:31.080 based on on recombined DNA from the parents. But but yeah, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.199 for a while, this line of organisms coming down the ages, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.800 ever since the beginning of life on Earth, has always 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.320 been reduced back to a kind of primordial ooze with 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.159 each generation every time it changes over. Yeah, I wonder 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.480 if especially as we get more into you know, that's 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:53.560 certainly the modern age and more scientifically literate, um, you know, public, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.560 I wonder if that plays into our appreciation of the melt, 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.399 at least on a subconscious level. This idea that we 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.640 are all all essentially creamy Newgat and therefore to see 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.760 us reduced to creamy newgat, uh, you know, fills this 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.919 with a certain wonder or horror or just sort of 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.919 you know, kind of spiritual um awe. Yeah, our genetic 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.359 essence at least is contained in the new Gat, and 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.040 we could be rebuilt from the Newgat. By the way, 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.520 on the topic of imaginal self, I once wrote an 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.200 article about gremlins for How Stuff Works, in which I 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.919 tried to make scientific sense of the gremlins biology and 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.720 the gremlin magua relationship, which is was a challenge to do, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.280 but I felt like the closest we could come to 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.679 describing some of the things that happened, like the the 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:47.240 water triggering um a sexual butting or the or specifically 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.760 the idea of sunlight melting that might be linked to 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.720 some sort of biological impulse to self digest within the 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.040 cocoon that has then triggered outside of the cocoon. Uh. 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.800 In the case of light exposed magua and gremlins, you 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.240 should have been present at that scene depicted in the 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:07.440 Key and Peel skit where they're kind of a lot 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.400 of gremlins too. Yes, yes, yes, that's one of my favorites. 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:13.840 All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:19.600 be right back. Thank thank you, Thank alright, we're back. Well. So, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.479 with regard to organisms actually melting, you know, sort of 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.159 like turning into a liquid or a goo. Uh, there 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.360 was something I briefly wanted to touch on, and it's 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.240 kind of parallel to some things we've talked about on 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.440 the show in the past. For example, when we did 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.160 an episode I think it was last year about pressure 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.639 about where we talked about and say, you know, organisms 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.920 that thrive under high pressure deep in the ocean. One 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.000 of the things we talked about is that sometimes when 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.200 fish from deep waters are brought up to the surface, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.760 they can undergo a kind of traumatic body response to 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.880 the lower pressures that they're exposed to on the surface. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:01.720 So there are are, for example, types of rock fish 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.760 or other fish that can uh, that can suffer eversions 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:10.159 of their digestive systems as their swim bladders expand with 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.280 lower pressure when they're brought up to the surface, so 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.680 it can actually actually like push their stomach out through 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.680 their mouth, which is really disgusting, don't knocket. Some organisms 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.320 do that as part of their they're just natural behavior. 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.560 There are certain sharks that do that too, if if 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.320 memory serves their sharks that do that as a way 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.160 of emptying their their stomach if need be. It's called 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.920 stomach aversion. Well for these fish, it is not part 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.840 of the plan. It's not voluntary. No, it happens because 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:39.720 like as they get as they rise up, the lower 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.320 pressure makes their swim the gas in their swim bladder 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.000 naturally expand. It pushes everything else out of the way, 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.520 and their guts get like pushed out through their mouth, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.520 which is yeah, not good to happen to them. Uh. 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.520 And there are similar things that can happen, though not 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.439 not quite as stomach aversion, a little bit more melty 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.200 that happened to other organisms. The example I was looking 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.200 at was a type of fish that is known as 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.639 the snail fish, and there are a number of different 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:08.520 types of snail fish. This is a it's it's a 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.040 genus known as the lie parody, and Lie parody often 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.760 dwell in very deep, very cold waters, especially in ocean trenches. 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.960 And so I was reading a New York Times article 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.960 about a discovery of several new types of snail fish 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.920 in uh. The article is by very Neic Greenwood, and 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.600 it was about discoveries of three new types of snail 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.600 fish of the Atacama Trench, which is off the coast 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:37.639 of Chile in the southeastern Pacific Ocean. And this trench 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.080 gets very deep. It's almost five miles deep and down 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:43.760 in the dark. There some researchers, I think some of 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:47.520 them more associated with Newcastle University. They discovered these three 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:49.919 new varieties of snail fish. But they were describing the 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.040 difficulty in bringing these fish up to the surface because 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.400 the fish are adapted to these extremely deep waters. And 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.120 so they were speaking with a research nature named Thomas 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:05.600 Linley who's with Newcastle University, who says that their tissue 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.960 is almost entirely gel quote. They are really supported by 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.359 the water around them, so they do have some hard 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.960 body parts. They have teeth. Most species of snail fish 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.280 have these kind of blunt, little cuppy kind of teeth, 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.159 and then they've got tiny bones, according to this article, 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.639 especially in the inner ear, and these are really the 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.920 main hard parts of their bodies. So if you grab 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.000 some of these snail fish and then you try to 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:36.440 bring them up to the surface to examine them, uh, 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.320 it all just goes to hell because when they're no 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.760 longer confined by the hydrostatic pressure of the deep water 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:46.679 and the extremely low temperatures of this deep ocean trench, 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.120 they essentially just melt when they get to the surface. 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:55.879 Quoting Thomas Linley, they fall apart at like the molecular level. 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.600 It's like a ghost thing that's disappearing in front of 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.520 your eye ways. And you might think, well, why why 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.200 would a fish be that fragile, you know, wouldn't need 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.800 to have a little bit more structural integrity to survive. 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:12.480 But no, it's because it's adapted to these extreme conditions 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:14.920 that are present only in this deep ocean trench where 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:18.479 it lives. Uh. Greenwood writes quote. This may be because 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:23.280 shallow water snailfish gain adaptations that let them thrive in 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:25.919 the deepest ocean where they have plenty of prey. So 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.880 there's less competition down there because less stuff can survive 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:33.160 there quote. But then because of these physiological changes, they 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:36.480 find themselves unable to rise to higher levels to leave 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:39.840 and thus are never seen by humans. So at the 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.240 deepest parts of the ocean and these trenches, you get 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:47.000 these islands of adapted organisms, including these types of snail fish, 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:50.240 that have to make major changes to their bodies through 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.359 evolution in order to survive down there. But then once 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:55.680 they make those changes, they're kind of stuck right there, 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:58.280 not going to migrate out of these deep water trenches 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.560 once they're there, because now they bodies that can't survive 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.240 at the lower pressures and higher temperatures of more shallow water. 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:10.480 It's like becoming a professional podcaster, you realize, oh my goodness, 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:13.479 I don't know if I can handle um different depths. 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:16.720 Um may be stuck down here. Yeah, you're in the 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:19.800 like the challenger deep of career paths where you're I 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:24.000 specialize in talking about science and horror movies. Yeah, people, 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.679 it's really useful skill, you know. It's this is actually 0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:29.280 ties in with a lot of stuff we're talking about, 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:32.280 because even in this we're joking about the fear of change, 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:36.919 and and perhaps clinging to stability um and uh and 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:38.840 in the case of this this creature, this is a 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:43.320 creature that thrives in this this this narrow environment that 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:47.240 is pretty stable, but it cannot handle change at all. Uh. 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:50.479 And melting in our fear of melting, our desire to melt, etcetera. 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.600 A lot of this does seem to center around how 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.320 we deal with change. And I think one thing to 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:58.520 keep in mind is that melting. We've certainly touched on 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.000 a lot of horrifying example, but melting doesn't have to 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:03.960 be bad. I just look to our language, um, you know, 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:06.840 because we have we have some really positive ideas and 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.200 metaphors that relate to melting at time, like the idea 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:14.520 of melting with joy or seeing something or experiencing something 0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:19.760 that quote just makes you melt. Um. There's uh, I'm sure, 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.760 especially if you if you were someone you know UH 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:26.960 enjoys like metal or dub step music or some other 0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:30.040 kind of genre that has kind of a I don't know, 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:36.120 an atmosphere of intensity to it. Sometimes you'll say loudness, 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:39.119 love loudness. You'll hear about how it is it is 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:42.320 face melting right uh. And and that and that is 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:45.560 largely depicted as being a positive thing. Yeah. One of 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:47.959 my favorite musicians is Neil Young, and I remember an 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.960 interview many years ago where Conan O'Brien was interviewing him, 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:55.560 and he he told him, I watched you at some 0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:58.520 concert play a rendition of rocking in the free world 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:02.240 that made my eyes melt. It's clearly a compliment. Did 0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:04.560 he mean crying? Was he crying? No? No, I think 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:06.879 he just meant like it was so powerful it like 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:10.480 destroyed my body. But he meant it as a compliment. Okay, 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:15.040 because yeah, because I think sometimes crying plays into how 0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:18.960 we're loosely thinking about melting. But it doesn't seem to 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:22.000 be a case where we're using it as like a 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:25.320 euphemism for for crying, you know, or trying to sort 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:27.080 of cover up the fact that we're crying, like trying 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.040 to be like hyper masculine about crying. That doesn't seem 0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:32.720 to be the way that people use melt. No. But 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:35.520 I think there's a very interesting thing that if you 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:39.040 look at movie scenes where characters are very first beginning 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.879 to melt, so the melt scene is happening very often, 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:43.880 a place for it to start is with some kind 0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:47.080 of piece, like a drop of liquid rolling down the face, 0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:51.439 almost like a tear drop does That is interesting? I 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.040 guess it does kind of look like, like, you know, 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.680 just water going down the face. You could sort of 0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:00.439 interpret it as like flesh or the surface of flesh melting. 0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:03.640 But that's a good point. So I was looking around 0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:06.040 to see if anybody, you know, done any you know, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:11.400 serious contemplation on this idea of of of melting, of 0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:13.840 you know, there being a fear of melting or desire 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:17.119 to melt um. Because, as we've discussed on the show before, 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:21.879 you do see psychological delusions such as that of feeling 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.560 that your body as is as brittle as glass and 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:29.200 may shatter, so why not melting as well? Yeah, there 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:33.480 are all kinds of uh, psychological conditions that can disrupt 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:38.120 various features of the body schema, or can disrupt types 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.280 of appropriate reception where you since, where your body is, 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.480 what it feels like, what's happening to it. Yeah, So 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:48.040 I did not find anything. If anyone out there has 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:50.360 run across it, I am happy to be corrected, but 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:52.600 I'm also I'm not I'm not going to say I'm 0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:56.560 disappointed that people are not dealing with a psychological delusion 0:28:56.560 --> 0:28:59.640 that their bodies are melting, like I'm I'm happy that 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.880 people or spared that at least. Uh. But I did 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:09.000 come across studies in Nondeterministic Psychology by James L. Fausage. Uh. 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:13.880 This is the National Institute of Psychotherapies in nineteen and 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:18.160 in it the author discusses psychotherapy approaches that make use 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:23.120 of transformative melting metaphors during the waking state of consciousness, 0:29:23.520 --> 0:29:26.920 which I found quite interesting. So this is not you know, 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.280 this is very much about like using various mental images 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:32.800 as a way of connecting with the patient and psychotherapy, 0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:34.960 but it touches on some of the things we're talking 0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:40.320 about here. So in this paper, Fassage Minsent mentions the 0:29:40.400 --> 0:29:44.040 melting of a shield with one's warmth. So that's like 0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:47.000 there's a shield between you and another person or another thing, 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:50.040 and your warmth can be the thing that melts the shield, 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.840 So you're like a an instrument of melting. And then 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.520 there's quote the fear of melting, of letting go and 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:00.920 becoming vulnerable without adequate defenses, which I think is is 0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:04.200 very key. And then there's the fear of melting completely 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:07.040 and there being nothing left of oneself, this kind of 0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:10.160 I guess, going back to the candle metaphor, but also 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:12.280 reminding me a bit of the Wicked Witch of the 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.880 West as well, you know, because she basically melts awaited nothing, 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:16.920 but it's just left. All this left is just the 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:20.160 clothing that she was wearing. I'd say, in psychological terms, 0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:23.440 the one that I here emerge most naturally from people 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.200 is the middle one about the melting of defenses, the 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:32.760 idea that people bring up metaphors of melting when they're 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:40.720 talking about people becoming more open and vulnerable with each other. Yeah, which, 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.160 on one hand, you might say, well, that's clearly not 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:45.760 what the Incredible Melting Man is about, that's clearly not 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:49.160 what RoboCop is about, etcetera. But I'm not quite convinced. 0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:52.760 I think I think these may, on a subconscious level, 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:56.840 be be about the the fear of of what happens 0:30:56.840 --> 0:30:59.680 if we open ourselves up to the world too much, 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.360 you know, like because it's let me look at RoboCop, 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:05.560 you know, it's or straight trash. These are films in 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:08.520 which the world around us is depicted as being a 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:12.560 horrible place, and you know, you want to I guess 0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.960 from your exterior to remain is is hard and impregnant, 0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:19.760 impregnatble is possible, right in those cases, like you don't 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:23.120 want to melt into that world. That world would melt you, though. 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:25.280 I would say one of the main themes of RoboCop 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:30.160 is the attempt to hang on to pieces of humanity 0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:33.960 in an in in an inhuman or inhumane world and 0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:39.560 the world that is ruled by by cruelty and corporations 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:44.960 and machines and and transactional relationships. Trying to hang onto 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.880 something that's pure and good and human. And you see 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:51.000 that emphasized in several of the scenes between Alex Murphy 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:54.320 or RoboCop and Lewis played by Nancy Allen, his partner. 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:57.120 They've got these these little moments where you can remember 0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:00.360 that you're human even when he's mostly machine. That's a 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.640 that's a very good point. Yeah, and again just more reasonable, like, no, 0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:08.720 don't just dismiss RoboCop. Is this ultra violent you know, 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.120 a piece of trash or something like, There's there's a 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:13.440 lot going on there. It's so I don't think it's 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:17.240 for for all tastes, but it's it's definitely a film 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:20.000 that intends to say something, Yeah, it's a movie. It's 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:22.800 a movie that's relatable to anyone who's trying to remain 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:25.400 a human at the same time that a corporation is 0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:29.040 extracting maximum value from what's left of your body. Yeah. 0:32:29.240 --> 0:32:31.520 So yeah, again, this is a world where that you 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:33.600 do not want to melt into. You don't want to 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.000 let go and become vulnerable because you want to hang 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:38.520 on to that part of you that's still human, that 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.520 hasn't been crushed by the machine yet. So I think 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:43.240 it's also interesting in all of this, you know what 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:47.400 we're talking about, this idea of like the metaphorical body 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.360 uh melting away and uh and all, and then how 0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:53.560 this is reflected in these horrific images of the body melting. 0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:57.720 But while a wax effigy of a human definitely melts, 0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:01.480 our bodies don't really melt even in the even when 0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:06.800 extreme things happen to them. Um, generally, what's going on 0:33:06.880 --> 0:33:09.920 with us is not quite the phase change that we 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:14.040 see occurring when say ice melts, or even when when 0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:17.760 when wax is melting away. Um, it's not quite what 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:21.080 it is. It's similar to in our episode about freezing, 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:25.040 about how our bodies don't exactly freeze solid and shatter 0:33:25.120 --> 0:33:28.000 in the way that pure water can correct. But I 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:30.120 think we concluded in that episode that if you get 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:33.120 a body cold enough, like you know, down to liquid 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.520 nitrogen temperatures, and use enough force, you can achieve some 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.960 shattering like the kinds of things. And I think something 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:43.440 similar is true with melting, that the human body doesn't 0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:47.000 melt the way Nazis do in the movies, but elements 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.040 of the human body will kind of melt. I mean, 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:52.280 the body is made of different types of tissues and materials, 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:55.960 and some of them will sort of melt, yeah, some 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:59.680 some Some parts of our flesh liquefy a little more easily, 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:02.640 and in rare cases human fat and the body has 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:06.080 been observed to behave something like the wick of a candle. 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.879 This is called the Wick effect. And uh, if you've 0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:12.120 if you've ever read anything about the various theories involving 0:34:12.320 --> 0:34:16.959 um uh spontaneous combustion, they are the Wick effect often 0:34:17.000 --> 0:34:19.680 plays into this. So so coming back to some of the 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.960 the faustages explorations about melting UM, I want to come 0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:27.000 back to the idea of of losing oneself through melting, 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.680 and in this I think melting serves as a strong 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:33.000 metaphor for gradual decay, for aging, for the you know, 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.360 the gradual work of a debilitating disease. Uh. These effects 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.319 coupled with the totality of death, you know, because death 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.000 robs us of everything that we are, and in the 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:46.560 in its wake, there can be an almost candle like experience. 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:49.360 Right again, think back to what we talked about in 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:53.600 the Wax episodes about how the candle often had magical 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:58.160 um uh connotations in various cultures because it was this thing, 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:02.759 this physical thing that burned a way completely are almost completely, 0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:04.759 you know, and at the end you might ask, what's 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.759 the candle even real? Did it exist? Where did it go? 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:11.640 And he's certainly in the face of actual human death, 0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:15.680 not movie human death, but but actual personal loss. You 0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:19.200 can feel that as well, totally. Now, the idea of 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:23.280 melting as phase transfer by which we become more vulnerable 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:27.120 without adequate defenses, you know, of letting go um. You know, 0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:29.880 I think that's extremely apt as well. It certainly ties 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:34.240 into our uses of melting, as in melting with joy um. Again, 0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:38.360 perhaps tears add an additional context to a certain degree, um, 0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.080 but for the most part, it's it's about becoming more 0:35:41.160 --> 0:35:45.080 malleable to the world around you, both in positive and 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:49.040 in negative ways, connecting with other people, connecting with the environment, 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:53.799 but also perhaps opening yourself to the dangers of other 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:57.520 people and of society, etcetera. It reminds me a lot 0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.799 of what we discussed in our psychedelic episodes, you know, 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:03.759 about the breaking down of boundaries between ourselves and others, 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:07.400 between ourselves in the natural world, not only melting, but 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:11.799 merging into some larger totality. Uh. In fact, I look back, 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:15.320 just just out of curiosity, I did some quick uh 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:18.040 word searches in a in a few texts, uh to 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.440 see who was using melting, and I noticed, for instance 0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:25.520 that that Huxley did not use melt or melting at 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:28.480 all in the Doors of Perception. But for instance far 0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:32.200 more recent work UM How to Change Your Mind by 0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:35.600 Michael Pollen, he uses melt or melting multiple times in 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:39.000 the book. You know, it seems like a pretty handy 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:44.000 contemporary um uh mental image to draw upon to make 0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:47.719 sense of what's happening with the psychedelic experience. Well, yeah, 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.120 I mean, in fact, I would say melting becomes an 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:55.960 interesting way of thinking about psychedelic psychedelic compounds effects on 0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:58.520 our perception because it even comes through and just the 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:03.239 sheer mechanics of how imagery transitions under the effects of 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:06.399 many psychedelics, where there are these things that people talk about, 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:10.000 like using terms like tracers and things like that, where 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:16.120 mental imagery and even visual imagery is perceived normally doesn't 0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:19.879 transition as quickly from one state to another, but there 0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:23.320 seemed to be sort of drag effects in between images, 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:26.239 you know what I'm talking about, uh, And that this 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:31.400 simulates a kind of liquidity of mental content that I 0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:35.400 think is quite aptly described by metaphors of melting. Often 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:38.960 on psychedelics, people describe some version of instead of just 0:37:39.080 --> 0:37:41.840 thinking about image A and then thinking about image B, 0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:46.279 image A melts into image by I don't know if 0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:49.480 that was entirely clear, but just the psychedelics really encourage 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:53.640 these sort of like dragging transition states. No, I absolutely agree. 0:37:53.840 --> 0:37:56.440 And it's interesting to think that, like, since that kind 0:37:56.480 --> 0:38:00.320 of thing is so common phenomenologically, it would almost suggest 0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:04.120 there is something about these compounds that that consistently encourage 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:07.160 that at a chemical level in the brain. Yeah, I mean, 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:08.560 and some of them maybe even comes down to like 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:11.799 how we're how we're we're taking in sense data, right, 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:15.239 is it are we taking in abstract facts about the 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:19.200 reality around us or is it a more fluid observation 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:23.719 of reality in terms of of of making note of changes. Oh, 0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:27.480 that's very interesting. So like instead of that, maybe you 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:31.279 could more easily, in a normal frame of mind, look 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:33.840 at one thing and then look at another thing because 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:37.000 you've got cognitive filtering that you're applying to your visual 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:40.040 sense data. You know that that's sort of like excluding 0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:43.919 the transition, the transitional middle period of what your eyes 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:47.279 are doing. But on the psychedelic you're processing things in 0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:51.080 a raw or way that does not filter out the 0:38:51.120 --> 0:38:54.759 transitional period as efficiently. Yeah, Like instead of saying, oh, 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:57.360 that's my face in the mirror, it's more it's a 0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:00.560 continual updating of it. Uh. It can create kind of 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:03.879 a melting effect without it actually looking like your face 0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:07.080 is straight up melting. So I I would never attempt 0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:10.200 to argue that something like, um, you know that to 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:13.960 say the psychedelic experience and humanity sister with the psychedelic experiences. 0:39:14.000 --> 0:39:16.719 Certainly in the like the twentieth century would have been 0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:20.600 like the the soul uh influence on all this melting 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:24.680 um fixation in cinema. But but I can't help but 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:26.839 wonder if that's part of it. But clearly you still 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:28.920 have other things. You have just the cinematic influence and 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:32.480 tradition that's going on when you know, people watch a 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:35.240 witch melt in one film and then create a melting 0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:38.360 effect in another film later on. Obviously that's part of 0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:41.920 it um. And I think also material the materials in 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:44.040 our surrounding culture are a big part of it as well. 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:47.560 I mean we see that again with wax observations of wax, 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:49.680 and then what happens when you create a human of wax. 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:54.040 Also what happens when you have, you know, a wax 0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:57.480 culture that becomes eventually an iron culture and then you 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:00.520 have all of this melting and smelting um mixed up 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:03.480 in um in in your understanding the world. And then 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:06.239 what happens when you go from an iron culture eventually 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.840 to a plastic culture. You know, it brings on new 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.839 connotations of what melting is, how things melt, and how 0:40:12.880 --> 0:40:16.640 we might imagine our bodies in reference to that material. 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.239 Oh yeah, I was just thinking about the metaphors we 0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:23.359 live by here. So so the metal metaphor is one 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:26.279 in which it takes a tremendous amount of work to 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:30.200 change one's shape. The plastic metaphor is pretty much just 0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:32.279 shaped at the factory. You're not gonna melt it and 0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:35.919 reshape it. That would kind of destroy it. So it's 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:38.880 it's you know, the plastic age. You're just stuck. All right, 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:41.279 We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back. 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:46.600 Thank thank, thank, and we're back. And you know this, 0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:49.360 this ultimately leads us to the next topic we're going 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:51.239 to discuss here, and this will be I guess that 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:53.480 sort of the final topic of discussion in this episode, 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:57.920 and that is another major melting symbol or metaphor that 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.120 comes up that a lot of your probably thinking about already, 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:05.080 and that is the American melting pot. Now quick note again, 0:41:05.120 --> 0:41:08.360 we're recording this episode the week of Halloween, though it 0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:11.960 won't publish till after election day, so just throwing that 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:15.520 out there for timing should it be essential. So this 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.600 is another area where I think when we're talking about melting, 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:21.839 everything we've discussed so far is still very much in play, 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:25.000 uh melting, and even you know, the fear of melting, 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.640 but also the potential joy of melting, the transformative nature 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:34.319 of melting. It's all reflected in this strange concept of 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:37.880 the American melting pot, something that I've heard my whole life, 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:41.439 and and I have to say, I think early on 0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:44.520 I always interpreted it's kind of a stupot. Maybe I 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:48.640 was confused by the franchise of Fondue restaurants called the 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:52.520 melting pot. I'm not exactly sure, because I mean, clearly 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:56.799 it is referring to a you know, a metallurgical comparison. Here, 0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:59.840 it is an idea of metals melting together in in 0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:02.640 a pot. Right, you combine different metals to form a 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:06.080 stronger alloy that has the great properties of each YEA. 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:10.000 On some level, though, I did recognize that it seemed 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:13.120 to be about different cultures and backgrounds, so that was 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:16.799 only coming together in this pot that is America and 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:22.560 becoming something new. Now it's this is a broad and 0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:25.880 h and at times very uh, you know, non specific 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.160 symbol to engage with, because it ultimately raises a lot 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.240 of questions like is this is this an accurate, accurate 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:36.600 depiction depiction of what American culture is? Is it more 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:38.920 of an ideal of what it could be. Is it 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:43.280 a misunderstanding of culture? Is it actually a misunderstanding of melting? 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:47.800 Is it a helpful concept? Is it a hurtful concept? Uh? 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:51.000 And certainly, at least to some extent, it depends on 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:54.520 how it's being used and who's using it during what 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:58.319 period of of of you know, the last century or 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:00.880 so of American history. You know? Is it something to 0:43:00.920 --> 0:43:04.200 support the idea of a monoculture and often a particular 0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:08.520 mono culture, or is it anti multiculturalism? So I decided 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.480 to look into this a little bit and and just 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:12.880 learn from myself, like, what what are the origins of 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:16.319 this term? I I honestly didn't have any idea. Uh. 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:19.200 So I read a paper this is from nineteen sixty 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:23.480 four by historian Philip Gleason, uh and it's titled the 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:28.360 Melting Pot Symbol of Fusion or Confusion in American Quarterly. 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:32.600 That's a great title, Umfusion or Confusion and American Quarterly, 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:34.640 by the way, as an academic journal and the official 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:38.319 publication of the American Studies Association. So I want to 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.200 roll through some of the points that Gleason makes. I 0:43:42.239 --> 0:43:46.480 am not attempting to summarize the entire uh right up here. 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:49.600 I recommend seeking this out if you want the full story. 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:51.879 It's a it's it's it's a wonderful read, and it's 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:55.680 invailable available in full in full on j Starr. So. 0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:58.560 First of all, he ties this this idea back to 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:02.160 the myth of metals in Plato's The Republic. This is 0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:05.400 also known as the Noble Lie, and here's how Malcolm's 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:10.760 Schofield summarized it in the Cambridge companion to Plato's Republic quote. 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:13.560 The noble Lie is to serve as charter myth for 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:17.400 Plato's Good City, a myth of national or civic identity, 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.400 or rather two related myths, one grounding that identity in 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:25.279 the natural brotherhood of the entire indigenous population. They're all 0:44:25.400 --> 0:44:29.120 auto cathanas, literally born from the earth, the other making 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:33.920 the city's differentiated class structure a matter of divine dispensation. 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:37.520 The god who molds them puts different metals in their souls. 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:40.359 If people can be made to believe it, they will 0:44:40.400 --> 0:44:43.040 be strongly motivated to care for the city and for 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:45.719 each other. If they can be made to believe it. So, 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:48.320 I mean, at least in Plato's vision. There's got to 0:44:48.320 --> 0:44:50.719 be a certain amount of just like getting people on 0:44:50.800 --> 0:44:55.000 board with a certain way of thinking about things. Yeah. Now, 0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:57.680 Gleason writes that the American myth of the medals here 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:01.000 is is ultimately a rejection of the platonic Um and 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.880 this is the melting pot quote. Unlike Plato's it was 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:08.440 not deliberately contrived to provide a supernatural sanction for the 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:11.560 existing social order. But is it that it is intimately 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:15.720 related to the origins and nature of American society? Okay, 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:18.800 so it's not a supernatural myth that you would tell people, 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:21.520 like a story that you make up to unify them. 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:25.080 But in the case of American society, it's supposed to 0:45:25.120 --> 0:45:28.799 be a fact that is literally just like descriptive and 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:32.839 self evident. Yeah. The interesting thing that Gleason drives something 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:34.600 about the melting pot, and I hadn't really thought about 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:36.520 this as well, is that it's it's a curious thing 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.440 to be so entrenched in the national mindset because on 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:43.520 one hand, it is not an actual thing you can 0:45:43.560 --> 0:45:47.040 point to, like you can't go to Boston or Washington, 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:49.160 d c. And like, hey, should we hey, family, should 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:50.839 we go see the melting Pot? There it is. We've 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:53.880 heard all about the American melting pot. Yeah, behhold no, 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:57.200 it's not a thing. And on the other hand, it's 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:00.520 not a proper symbol either. You can't say, oh, let me, 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:03.080 let me fish some dollar bills out of my wallet. Oh, yes, 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:05.879 here's the melting pot right here. You could you if 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:07.839 you were asked to draw the melting pot, what would 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:11.080 you draw? You know, it's it's not a concrete symbol 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:13.200 per se, to the extent that it's a symbol, It's 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:15.920 only a linguistic one, like the phrase is a symbol, 0:46:15.960 --> 0:46:19.680 but it's never depicted. Yeah. So Gleason says that it 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:23.240 might be more fair to consider it a concept or theory. 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:26.520 But but it He also discusses it just in terms, 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:30.000 loosely as a symbol throughout the paper. Uh. He points 0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:32.320 out that it's used in many ways as a simile. 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:36.319 America is is like a melting pot. Sometimes it's a 0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:40.320 metaphor America is a melting pot, and sometimes it's a symbol. 0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:42.319 They traveled across the sea to be part of the 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:44.640 melting pot. So the use of the melting pot is 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:48.040 a symbol, he says, You know, for the process of immigration, 0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:53.239 into American society. This was popularized basically as recently as 0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:58.000 nine eight with Israel Zangwell's play that was titled The 0:46:58.080 --> 0:47:01.360 Melting Pot. So it it's another interesting thing about it. 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:03.799 It's not really that old of an idea, and not 0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.560 that the United States is that old of an idea either, 0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:10.520 But the idea itself does date back a good bit 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:16.000 before eight uh, dating back to the eighteenth century contemplations 0:47:16.320 --> 0:47:20.319 of the New American man, and particularly it goes back 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:24.360 to the French American writer Jay Hector st. John de Crevicur, 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:29.000 who lived seventeen thirty five through eighteen thirteen. Crevicur wrote 0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:33.640 pro American writings during the Revolution. He also opposed slavery, 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:37.040 and he touched on the melting pot concept in Letters 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:40.280 from an American Farmer in seventeen eighty two, in which 0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:43.640 he quote developed or implied all of the themes unquote 0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:47.239 involved in the idea that a new American man would 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:51.400 be the product of cross cultural fertilization. Right, So that 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:55.160 would be the sort of what was considered a revolutionary 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:59.680 idea at the time, that you could build a civic culture, 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.680 you could build a polity on the basis of shared 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:07.000 ideals rather than shared ethnicity. Yeah, yeah, Like he was 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:10.239 very much it's at least for for a time here 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.600 in a lot of these writings, was very gung ho 0:48:13.000 --> 0:48:15.839 about what America could be, this idea like it's going 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.319 to be a new thing where we're building a new 0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:21.600 country here and uh and and the people that occupied 0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:24.680 are going to be a new creation in a sense, 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:26.359 they're going to be created out of out of these 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:29.680 pre existing elements. And he did use the word melt 0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:33.560 to describe the process quote individuals of all nations are 0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:37.200 melted into a new race of men unquote, which at 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.279 least in some ways sounds futuristic and positive. You know, 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:43.560 it sounds very plasma pool in his wake, though you 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.480 see other people occasionally use it in a different fashion. 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:51.279 For instance, DeWitt Clinton, described by Gleason as a nativistic congressman, 0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:54.520 used it in the eighteen forties as a criticism of 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:58.520 immigrants who did not melt into American culture and kept 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:01.600 aspects of their own culture. So again, already we see 0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:04.960 melt the idea of the melting pot be used positively, 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:08.080 like like, hey, everybody, let's melt together and become something new. 0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:10.440 And then here's this other guy using it and saying, 0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:13.080 why aren't people melting? I want to see more melting. 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:16.840 You're not melting enough. You're not melting enough me. Well, no, 0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:19.520 I'm not melted. I'm I'm I'm not in I'm melting. 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:22.040 But you you need to do some melting. But still 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:25.000 it doesn't quite inner general usage just yet again, not 0:49:25.080 --> 0:49:26.920 until that play comes around, which we'll get to in 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:31.200 a second. Um. Ralph Waldo Emerson, however, who lived eighteen 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:33.960 o three eighteen eighty two, he came close and discussing 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:37.680 how Americans America would quote construct a new race and 0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:40.520 new religion, a new state, and new literature, and that 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:42.879 it would be as as vigorous, quote as the new 0:49:42.880 --> 0:49:45.239 Europe which came out of the smelting pot of the 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:48.960 Dark Ages. So Gleason points to a few different examples there. 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:53.319 But the melting pot again doesn't really take off in 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:55.560 uh in in in the in in our language until 0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:59.480 the early twentieth century. In that period between the dawn 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:02.960 of the twenti century and the start of World War One. 0:50:03.719 --> 0:50:06.280 Uh this, Gleason says, is a time when one million 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:10.160 immigrants roughly entered the United States of America. Most of 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:12.960 them were from southern and Eastern Europe, and the resulting 0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:17.279 communities in major cities were considered by some to be 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:21.239 to constitute an immigration problem. Thus the notion of the 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:24.600 melting Pot. There was a fear of an express fear 0:50:24.680 --> 0:50:29.120 of what non assimilating immigrants meant for the country. Now, 0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:31.640 the play itself was a big hit, at least with 0:50:31.640 --> 0:50:34.279 with audiences, apparently not so much with the with the 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.680 theater critics of the day. But the plot concerned a 0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:42.200 Russian Jewish immigrant family and the main character's desire to 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:45.560 melt into a new future devoid of ethnic division and hatred, 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.000 and it also also concerns the plight of the Jewish 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:51.760 people in this period of history. But in in criticizing 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:56.480 the average American of the day, it also you know, proposed, 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:01.000 it put forth this idea that the melting pot is 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:04.959 not something that either that has been done or is done, 0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:07.239 is not part of a process that we see completed 0:51:07.840 --> 0:51:10.799 in any person around us, but rather it is an 0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:15.080 ongoing process that we're all going to be reborn out of. 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:18.680 If that makes sense. So it's not it's so if I, 0:51:18.680 --> 0:51:21.560 if I understand the play correctly, the concept of the 0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:25.560 melting plot employed here is not one of hey, immigrants, 0:51:25.600 --> 0:51:27.960 go get into the melting pot and then come out 0:51:28.000 --> 0:51:29.600 and then you can be with me. It's more like 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:31.640 we are all in the melting pot. We are all 0:51:31.800 --> 0:51:36.680 melting into something better and and new, right, not an 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:40.040 exhortation of like, you're not melting properly, but just saying, like, 0:51:40.120 --> 0:51:44.160 it's descriptive. The melting pot is what happens. Yes, it 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:46.919 is an ongoing thing that has had It is the 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:50.080 the ongoing transformation of what it means to be an 0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:53.200 American now. Gleason points out that Theodore Roosevelt loved it, 0:51:53.360 --> 0:51:55.440 but he didn't like the lines in there about Americans 0:51:55.480 --> 0:51:59.480 being lax on divorce or public corruption. So the playwright 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:05.240 took it out like, okay, it fair enough to be happy. Yeah, um, 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:08.720 but you know, it's it also seems like the play 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:12.520 carried with it a certain you know, divisive interpretations depending 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:15.120 on who was thinking about the play and was also 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:18.759 then thinking about immigration. You know, is it preaching too 0:52:18.880 --> 0:52:21.879 much conformity on the part of the immigrant or too 0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:25.000 much transformation on the part of the nation. And I 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:27.160 I guess in that respect it sounds like the play 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:30.520 did what what good art should do, right. I mean 0:52:30.560 --> 0:52:33.440 it's it's maybe pissing off everybody to a certain extent 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:38.239 or making everybody think about, like, what what's going on 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:40.920 in the country. Well, if I'm understanding correctly, I mean 0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:44.799 it maybe sort of assuming something that sounds kind of 0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.640 ahead of its time, which is that the cultural assimilation 0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:53.200 of immigrant communities into into a new country is not 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.560 necessarily what what the you know, the nativist that the 0:52:56.640 --> 0:53:00.560 angry finger waggers are saying that you're not assimilating good enough. Uh, 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:03.600 that like that they need to become like the nativist 0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:07.560 finger waggers. Instead, it's the nativist finger waggers and the 0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:11.160 new immigrants are all going to in the future assimilate 0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:15.439 into this this common thing that is yet to come. Yeah, 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:18.200 I think so. Yeah, the idea that it's it's it's 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:21.359 something that is happening and will happen. Uh yeah, as 0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:23.480 opposed to this this thing that has supposed to have 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:26.000 already occurred. But but it does get back to a 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:27.880 lot of what we discussed already about, like how we 0:53:27.920 --> 0:53:30.759 think about melting, both in its positive and negative connotations. 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.680 You know, if I'm melting, am I gonna lose myself? 0:53:34.040 --> 0:53:36.360 Will I be hurt when I become soft and malleable? 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:40.000 I am am I ready for change, you know. Uh. 0:53:40.040 --> 0:53:42.000 And and as Gleason points out, you know, there's a 0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:44.360 lot of variety and how the melting pot is presented, 0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:46.759 and and there are a lot of questions that all 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.040 the time about what exactly you're trying to say, Like it, 0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:51.960 are we talking about a biological blending, like is it 0:53:52.000 --> 0:53:56.040 about you know, different ethnicities becoming one? Is it a 0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:59.840 cultural blending that we're talking about? Is it is it 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:02.520 all of the culture or just like aspects of the culture. 0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:06.040 I mean again, it depends on who's who's trotting it 0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:08.920 out really, Uh, you know, is it describing something that 0:54:09.040 --> 0:54:11.120 used to take place, something that is taking place, something 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:13.640 that needs to take place, or is taking place with 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:16.920 with a few, with the future in mind, etcetera. Uh 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:20.560 So I found it all very very um, very intriguing 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:23.600 to think about. It makes me even less likely to 0:54:23.719 --> 0:54:27.200 use the term melting pot in my own conversations unless 0:54:27.200 --> 0:54:31.200 i'm you know, uh talking with somebody about the concept itself. 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:34.160 Like it seems it seems like it's just too um, 0:54:34.840 --> 0:54:39.400 it's too vague. And too open to interpretation and also uh, 0:54:39.560 --> 0:54:42.640 too too easy to misuse. Yeah, you could look at 0:54:42.640 --> 0:54:44.719 it that way, And I gotta say, I don't know 0:54:44.760 --> 0:54:48.760 if I've ever really been somebody who used this image myself. 0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:51.319 But on the other hand, as as somebody who you know, 0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:55.920 believes in the project of multiculturalism and uh and believes 0:54:55.960 --> 0:55:00.120 like immigration is good for a nation. Um, I you 0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:03.480 think it's also useful to have imagery, Like having symbols 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:08.040 and imagery really does help an idea take root. It's 0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:10.960 it's possible that this symbolar imagery is not the best 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:13.920 symbol or imagery. I don't know, because it's certainly right 0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:16.960 that it has like tons of ambiguous meanings. But when 0:55:17.000 --> 0:55:20.520 you're talking about a trend as big as uh, you know, 0:55:20.600 --> 0:55:25.040 trying to form a multicultural polity, I guess there probably 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.000 is going to be a lot of ambiguity and in 0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:30.480 whatever imagery you use. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:32.200 it's asking a lot, I guess of a of a 0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:36.040 symbol or metaphor to really sum up um, some of 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:38.399 what this this uh, this symbol or metaphor has called 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:41.360 on to do. But again I found it interesting, especially 0:55:41.480 --> 0:55:44.080 again just in terms of thinking once more about melting 0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:47.680 as this thing that has positive and negative connotations that 0:55:47.840 --> 0:55:53.480 ultimately is about how we think about change in our lives. Uh, 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:57.040 in the world. Uh, you know, political change, societal change, 0:55:57.080 --> 0:56:00.560 cultural change, biological change. I gotta say, when you proposed 0:56:00.560 --> 0:56:02.920 a Melt movie episode, this is not the direction I 0:56:02.960 --> 0:56:05.640 expected it to go. But this has been really interesting. Yeah, 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:07.600 I I enjoyed it as well. I don't think I 0:56:07.760 --> 0:56:10.280 ended I thought that we'd end up talking about the 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:13.560 you know, the substance of America uh so much. Um. 0:56:13.640 --> 0:56:15.720 That was not the intent. In fact, if the attempt, 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:17.480 if it was any intent, it was to not talk 0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:22.680 about anything political or or or America centrics. So but 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:25.480 here we are, we have melted into it, and I'll 0:56:25.480 --> 0:56:28.880 proudly melt up next to you and melt her still today. 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:36.120 Are there songs about melting Um in the Sopranos. There 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:41.040 is a metal band, uh that has a song called melt. 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:44.600 I know, there's there's a there's a Calm Truise album 0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:47.920 called Galactic Melt, which I think is nice because his 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:50.239 his sound has a very like that that I think 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:52.040 it sums up to something about it sound like something 0:56:52.080 --> 0:56:55.799 galactic something that is like spacey and specific, but the 0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:59.719 melting aspect of it has implies a kind of you know, 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:04.480 biological um uh, you know, amorphous quality that's there as well, 0:57:04.920 --> 0:57:08.600 sort of like it's it's in biology and technology fused 0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:12.600 together into one sound. Shoegaze type music has some good 0:57:12.719 --> 0:57:15.360 sonic melting qualities I would I would consider like my 0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:19.160 Bloody Valentine and a very melty band. Yeah, I guess 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:21.400 a vapor wave in it in its own way. Like 0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:26.000 just the word vapor wave implies phase transition as well, 0:57:26.080 --> 0:57:30.920 but different, not a different one, not melting but sublimation. Yeah, 0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:33.480 And I don't know that that's something we really explore 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:36.280 that much in our our horror movies. So I don't 0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.160 know what happens when the mall turns not from a 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:42.880 solid into a liquid, but a solid directly into a gas. Yeah, 0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:45.880 then you get an eternal loop of the chorus from 0:57:46.360 --> 0:57:51.200 Take These Broken Wings. The real quick is that you know, 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:53.800 is that what happens in um the Avengers movies, the 0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:57.120 whole Fingersnap thing are are are people turning into vapor 0:57:57.080 --> 0:57:58.960 or they just turning into ash? And that I don't know. 0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:02.680 I haven't seen those movies. Okay, I watched the first one. 0:58:02.800 --> 0:58:04.560 The listeners will have to cue clue us in on 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.360 that and being exposed for the millionth time as somebody 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:10.120 who I don't I'm not in the marble thing. I 0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:13.320 don't really. Well, you'll come back for the next Blade film. 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:15.320 I hope. Oh, I guess you know what. I still 0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:19.960 haven't seen Blade three, so uh well, it has one 0:58:19.960 --> 0:58:22.440 good line in it. But I can send you a 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:24.600 clip of that and then you're good to go. Okay, 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:26.360 all right, well we're gonna go ahead and close it 0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:29.080 out here. This was this was melting. This says the 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:33.680 episode is going to close out this year's Halloween festivities. 0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:36.439 But don't worry. We're you know, we're coming back next 0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:40.760 week and it's gonna be new topics. Uh perhaps a 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:43.760 little less halloweeny, but just as h as exciting and 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:47.160 contemplated in theory. Anyway, Well, we'll see where it goes. 0:58:47.160 --> 0:58:48.880 We're just gonna see where the rest of the year, Texas. 0:58:49.400 --> 0:58:51.040 In the meantime, if you want to check out other 0:58:51.040 --> 0:58:53.400 episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind, you can find 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:56.600 us wherever you get your podcasts and wherever that happens 0:58:56.640 --> 0:58:58.400 to be if you have the ability to do so, 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:01.720 just rate, review and subscribe. 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If you would like to 0:59:30.960 --> 0:59:33.320 get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:35.840 or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:38.360 or just to say hello, you can email us at 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:49.040 contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:51.240 to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 0:59:51.600 --> 0:59:54.480 For more podcasts for my Heart radios, the iHeart Radio app, 0:59:54.680 --> 0:59:57.400 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:12.840 Blah blah blah. The Busy point four point four part