1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Uh my name is Ben, and 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Noel, I am. I am drinking 5 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: coffee that I bought today, not from home, from like 6 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: a store. Moving on up. Oh my goodness, I am dream. 7 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: My name is Noel. I'm drinking coffee that I bought 8 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: from a store. But I wasn't such a rush. I 9 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: didn't even put it in a glass. I'm just drinking 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: out of the big giant container. Props to stock Cold 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: Brew Coffee. Definitely don't sponsor the show, but I surely 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: sponsor them with my money. Uh low and slow ten 13 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: hour Brew highly recommend it. Picks them up at your 14 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: local convenience store. I'm speaking of things you pick up 15 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: at local convenience store. Why why is a tomato of fruit? Ben? 16 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: What cruel trick of God is that that tomato is 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: a fruit? I'm still gonna do my segway anyway. I 18 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: will tell you, but first I want to give a 19 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: shout out to the coffee I bought. It's called Hawaii 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: ConA Blend coffee. It's product of Japan. I went to 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: a Japanese convenience store with the weird name Tomato. I 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: asked someone who worked there why it's called tomato. Then 23 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: they said, that's just the name of the store, which 24 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: qualifies as an answer, doesn't it. A tomato is a 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: fruit because it has a fruit is just a seed 26 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: bearing structure, right, And you know if you bite into 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: a tomato, if you're a madman, or if you slice 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the tomato, you'll see all the little seeds in there. Right. 29 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: Do people bite into tomatoes? Yeah, but I mean a 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: squash has seeds. You know, a zucchini's got seeds. Well, 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: it's weird because they're part of the same thing too. 32 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: That's what's misleading. So if we're looking at it from 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: a botanical perspective, fruits contain seeds and come from the 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: flower of a plant, but the rest of the plant 35 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: is See you finally solved it for me. I get it. 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: I have a very complicated relationship with tomatoes, band. I 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: think a lot of kids grew up probably liking tomatoes 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: in certain forms, like you know, spaghettios and stuff, but 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: then when it comes to like eating a tomato off 40 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: the vine, I've certainly seen little kids that are down 41 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: for just chomping on a ripe tomato. But my mom 42 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: liked them so much. She resented the fact that I 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: despised them, and once forced me to eat uh raw 44 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: tomato at the dinner table, and I proceeded to vomit 45 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: all over the table. Um. And it's cautionary tail for 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: trying to force your kids to eat things they don't like. Yeah, yeah, 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's a shame that our super producer, Casey 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: Pegram is here in spirit today, so I'm gonna be 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: shouting out the future, Casey, Casey, you're on adventures. But 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: I remember with great fondness our conversations over the years 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: about what does or does not comprise a picky eater. 52 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: And you're right, taste change over time, Noll, there's a 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: weird I wouldn't see if any fellow ridiculous historians have 54 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: noticed this. There seems to be a weird taste shift 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: as people grow up from catch up toward mustard as 56 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: far as like their favorite basic condiment. I never had 57 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: a huge issue with tomatoes, but I know that there 58 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: are a divisive thing and they're very form sensitive. Like 59 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: just like you said, people might love aposta sauce, but 60 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: they may hate the actual tomato. And historically this is 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: an echo of at least in the US, this is 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: an echo of our huge, weird relationship with tomatoes. It's 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: crazy that people don't talk about it more often. I mean, 64 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: I I don't know if anybody else had this misconception, 65 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: but when I was quite young, I just kind of 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: assumed tomatoes were Italian because I associated them with pasta sauce. 67 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: But they're not. They're they're Mezzo American. We have proof 68 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: that the tomato was eaten in the Aztec culture as 69 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: early as seven hundred a d. When it was called 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: the tomat, not to be confused with cats aquadal, which 71 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: I believe was also an Azteca god I forget um. Yeah, 72 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: it's name in the nut nut language, which I guess 73 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: maybe they had a lot of suffixes that were autle. Yeah. 74 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: But it wasn't until nearly sixteen hundred that they began 75 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: to be grown in Britain. Um. And in the early 76 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: sixteenth century you had the Spanish conquistores that were coming 77 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: back from expeditions to Mezzo America where they were seeing 78 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: this fruit. I'm gonna say, I have to say it. 79 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: It's official, but it doesn't make any sense to me. 80 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: But here we are. Uh. And they brought it back, 81 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: you know as conquistas wars are wont to do. Um. 82 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: And some folks credit Cortez for bringing the tomato seeds 83 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: back to Europe in fifteen nineteen. Uh. It's really funny 84 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: too because it wasn't even considered like a food stuff. 85 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: It was grown for exclusively like aesthetic purposes, um, ornamental 86 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: purposes um. And there's a really great line from John Parkinson, 87 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: who is the apothecary uh to James the first, King 88 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: James the First, and he was also a botanist for 89 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: King Charles the First and he Uh. This is also 90 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know this term to me to 91 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: gross to me after reason, but it's referred to sometimes 92 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 1: as a love apple. It's tomato, which kind of makes 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: me a little squeamish. I don't know why. But here's 94 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: here's from our boy, John Parkinson proclaiming that while the 95 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: love apples were eaten by the people in the hot 96 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: countries to cool and quench the heat and thirst of 97 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: the hot stomachs, uh, Brits really only grew them kind 98 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: of as like a novelty, right, and because they're you know, 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: they're pretty, they're they're nice and round and shiny, and 100 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: they do look nice. Yeah. It's similar to how kudzu, 101 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: when it first came to the US, was grown entirely 102 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: as like a porch decoration. It was ornamental as well. 103 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: People didn't put as much emphasis on eating it, though 104 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: you can find a couple of recipes, but one of 105 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: the earliest European references to this, ever, two tomatoes of food, 106 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: was made by an Italian herbalist named Pietro Andre Mattoli, 107 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,559 Speaker 1: who said he called it a golden apple. So people 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: were comparing tomatoes to the closest visual analog they had, 109 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: which was the apple. So you call them golden apples 110 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: or love apples, which I agree is kind of gross. 111 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: And Pietro made a huge misstep that would have consequences 112 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: and ripple effects for centuries to come. Uh. He classified 113 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: the tomato as a kind of nightshade or and drake. Uh, 114 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: the man drake has a long, long history. You can 115 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: find references to it in the Old Testament, and that 116 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: that translation is where we get the phrase love apple from, 117 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: because the Hebrew word is do dame du d a 118 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: I M. And that translates kind of roughly to love apple. 119 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: And so when Pietro classified the tomato as a man drake, 120 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: he did character assassination. He may seem super sketchy. It 121 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: was poisonous. Then it was also somehow associated with temptation. 122 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: There were probably a couple of Europeans who genuinely believe 123 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: that just maybe the apple that Eve offered to Adam 124 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: was something very much like a tomato. And then the 125 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: hits of inaccuracies and plagiarization keep coming. There's a guy 126 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: named John Gerald who publishes a book in f called 127 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: air Ball. Uh. It's pronounced herbal, but I like air ball. 128 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: It sounds fancy. Uh. And this spread stuff like here's 129 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: a quote Gerard considered the whole plant to be of 130 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: rank and stinking savor. The fruit was corrupt, which he 131 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: left to every man's censure. While the leaves and stalk 132 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: of the tomato plants are toxic, the fruit is not. 133 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: I want to point something out really quickly. I mean, 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: let's cut a tomato in half and let's take a 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: look inside it. There is something somewhat dare I say 136 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: titillating about it, and I could see how in the 137 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: mind of like, you know, the time, maybe it was 138 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: looked at as being somewhat corrupt because it has the 139 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: appearance of something of a sex organ. Maybe I'm sorry, 140 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not trying to be gross. I'm really just 141 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: conjecturing here, because you know, so many other like it 142 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: really is a much more squishy and kind of succulent 143 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: kind of you know. I think that's a texture of 144 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: it is what weirds a lot of people out. But 145 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that was literally just in people's heads, 146 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: where oh my gosh, this is a corrupt and wicked 147 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: fruit because it's too like moist and squishy. M Yeah, 148 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's a good question, because, you know, the 149 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: the idea of eroticism of plant matter is surprisingly common. T. S. 150 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: Eliot said, do it dare to eat a peach? And 151 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: that was that whole poem is a reference to other works, uh, 152 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: and then Georgia O'Keefe, you don't have to look very 153 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: far for eroticism of plant matter, so that may have 154 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: something to do with it. There's something else here. People 155 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: thought tomatoes were dirty, especially fancy people in Europe because 156 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: even though Spanish cooks in the fifteenth century started adopting 157 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: it after they saw it used in meso America, as 158 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, Uh, and Italian Italians didn't pick it 159 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: up immediately, especially the Aristocrats, because tomatoes hung low to 160 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: the ground and so this made them seem dirty. British 161 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: people knew this, but they also knew that people in 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: Spain and Italy who had you know, bit the bullet 163 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: or I guess, bit the tomato and tried it out, 164 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: they knew they weren't dying, so it's made of wouldn't 165 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: automatically kill you. But still there were a lot of rumors. 166 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: In fact, in the late seventeen hundreds, a ton of 167 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: Europeans feared the tomato. It had a third apple nickname. 168 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: I don't think we mentioned this first. We said golden apple, 169 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: we said love apple. Was also called the poison apple. Oh, 170 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: the poison apple. That's right, because it was somewhat because 171 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, maybe connected to this, uh, fear of it 172 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: being unclean. It was rumored to be poisonous. It was 173 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: feared across Europe in the late seventeen hundreds because of 174 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: that very nickname, and it was connected to this notion 175 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: that there was a spate of sickness around eating tomatoes 176 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: that struck the aristocratic class, that many of them fell 177 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: ill and died after eating the dreaded poison apples. But 178 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with the the fruit at all. 179 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: It had to do with the flatwear. Um. These fancy 180 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: Europeans were using pewter plates which were super high in 181 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: lead content. And we know what that does. It did 182 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: will kill you dead lead. That's how you remember because 183 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: it rhymes um. Because tomatoes are so high in acid 184 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: um that when they are placed onto this particular type 185 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: of material, the fruit would actually suck up lead content 186 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: from the plate into the actual fruit itself because of 187 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: the nature of you know, the very porous nature of 188 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: the tomatoes. So that was death due to lead poisoning. 189 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: So there was a conduit with the tomato, but it 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: wasn't the tomato itself that was causing people to get sick. Uh. 191 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: So you know, it was an easy kind of fall guy, uh, 192 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: fall fruit. But there are other researchers, some of whom 193 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,239 Speaker 1: are credited in a fabulous Atlas Obscure article when tomatoes 194 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: were blamed for witchcraft and werewolves, who said that tomatoes 195 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: don't have a high enough acidity to leach uh the 196 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: materials from pewter plates, and that that also the idea 197 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: that lead poisoning isn't something that kills you right on 198 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: the spot, is something that sort of builds up in 199 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: your system, sort of like slowly feeding somebody ground up 200 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: glass in a prison type situation. Does that something people do? Yep, 201 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: I've never seen oz. That's the thing. Oh Uh, you're 202 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: you're right, though, you're right. The science shows that the 203 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: way tomatoes work and the way lead poisoning works, don't 204 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: they make it unlikely that that would be the case. 205 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: But of course, now if you go into any major 206 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: European city, you'll be hard pressed to not see a tomato. Right, 207 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: they're super popular. Why is that? Well, all comes down 208 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: to the creation of one of diculous histories culinary super heroes. 209 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: That's right, the pizza. The pizza. This is what Eric 210 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: Andre would call a brave yet controversial claim. Uh. Pizza 211 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: is commonly thought to have began the modern version of 212 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: it in Naples in Campania in eighteen eighty nine. So 213 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: when the pizza hit the scene, the tomato wrote its 214 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: coat tails to widespread populary wrote its crust tails will 215 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: work it up. I can't help it, Ben, I'm every 216 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: time we're talking about like the thing that the tomato does, 217 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm just picturing a little anthropomorphized tomato with a face. 218 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: With the poison apple situation, I'm picturing a really mean 219 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: looking tomato, you know, with like little diagonal eyebrows, you know, 220 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: and maybe some fangs or something. And now with this one, 221 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm picturing a very happy, plump tomato riding a pizza's 222 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: coat tails. Have you watched many Japanese pizza commercials. I 223 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: think I sent a bunch of you guys one time. 224 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Okay, we still have 225 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: to do this show. But Japan has amazing pizza. Technology 226 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: doesn't always work out, but it's bold, innovative, and the 227 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: commercials are astonishing. Tomatoes were thriving across the pond once 228 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: the pizza revolution began. But let's go back to North 229 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: and South America. The first reference to the tomato in 230 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: North American colonies that were British and origin was published 231 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: in a book called Botana Loggia, printed in seventeen ten, 232 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: and it places the tomato and the Carolinas. The tomato 233 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: was like acceptable, kind of thought of as a as 234 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: a regional food stuff, but the US wasn't super united. 235 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: The word of the tomato would spread the places, or 236 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't common, but those myths about it would also spread. 237 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: Like for weird period of time, a lot of people 238 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: knew how to grow tomatoes, but they didn't know what 239 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: to do with them once they were grown. They didn't 240 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: have like recipes because they thought it was poisonous. There 241 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: was this really weird incident that many people haven't heard of, 242 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: where in addition to thinking tomatoes were poisoned, there was 243 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: a a like massive outbreak of hysteria about the danger 244 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: of what was called the green tomato worm, the dreaded 245 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: green tomato worm. Again, I don't know what's going on 246 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: with me this morning or afternoon, I guess, but now 247 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm anthropomorphizing the dreaded green tomato worm. I'm picturing him 248 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: just kind of living inside the happy tomato and turning 249 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: and corrupting it from within. And the evil green tomato 250 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: worm also has slanty eyebrows. He sort of looks like 251 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: plankton from SpongeBob maybe a little bit, but he definitely 252 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: means us harm. That is, at least according to UH. 253 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: A doctor Fuller Um in New York City, who was 254 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: quoted in the Syracuse Standard, is saying he found a 255 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: five inch tomato worm in his garden, captured it in 256 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: a bottle, and did some tests. I would assume because 257 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: he described it as being poisonous as a rattlesnake. Uh. 258 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: And it would throw spittle at its prey like one 259 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: of those delafosaurs in Jurassic Park. Uh. This is terrified. 260 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, apparently once your skin would come in contact 261 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: with this spittle, it would swell up immediately, um, and 262 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: then the victim would seize up and die. My goodness, 263 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: so much hate for the tomato and so much fear 264 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: and trepidation surrounding it, and all that, all that it encompasses. 265 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: And for my cryptic fans in the audience, you'll recognize 266 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: this has Uh. This has some commonalities with the crypted 267 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: known as the Mongolian death worm. Just touching this bad 268 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: boy is a death sentence, scary story, captivating, also entirely fictional. 269 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: The tomato worm is mainly dangerous to leaves on tomato plants. 270 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: That's that's it's primary target more of a hungry little 271 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: caterpillar esque figure than deadly venom spitting you know, helld beast. 272 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: And unless you are some sort of anthropomorphized leaf on 273 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: a tomato plant, you're probably going to be safe. We 274 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: owe that discovery to an entomologist by the name of 275 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: Benjamin Walsh. However, the pendulum swings right, so the pendulum 276 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: of fear corrected, and it swung in the opposite direction 277 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: way too far, like they tended to. That's how pendulum's 278 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: gotta work, aren't they. Yeah. So one of the strange 279 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: things that happened was that, first off, people had these 280 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: pretty rigid ideas about the quote unquot right color of food, 281 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: and according to Andrew F. Smith, the author of the 282 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: Tomato in America, Early History, Culture and Cookery, red was 283 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: not not considered the right color for any kind of food. 284 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: And people grew them because it was a striking cool color. 285 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: But they grew them the way you would grow flowers. 286 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: They weren't planning to eat them most of the time. 287 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: Until that is, eighteen thirty four, a guy named Dr 288 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: John Cook Bennett, who was a physician and amateur botanists, 289 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: went public with his claim that tomatoes had medicinal properties. 290 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: He said that he visited European hospitals and colleges and 291 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: seeing doctors recommending tomatoes to patients. Eat tomatoes. He said, 292 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: they can prevent cholera, they can treat your diarrhea, they 293 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: can help you with headaches and dyspepsia. People love this 294 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: good news. People are always interested in health news. Problem 295 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: is Dr Bennett is what we would um candidly describe 296 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: as a quack. Oh yeah, he's like the original kind 297 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: of like bone broth salesman, you know what I mean, 298 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: or like a lot of those products that you see 299 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: pedaled by Alex Jones types, you know, or prosperity gospel 300 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: weirdos that are like doomsday prep kind of buckets of 301 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: like you know, neutral goo or what have you. But 302 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: it does turn out that there, you know, there are 303 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: some health benefits to tomatoes, right Ben, I mean they're 304 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: high and you know certain vitamins, right, And I think 305 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: like a pine is something that I think even today, 306 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: I saw a study that like apene can increase your 307 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: sperm count. And so there's like new studies going into 308 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: in the modern day tomato based remedies. It can also 309 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: help prevent certain types of cancer to like eating tomatoes 310 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: is not going to kill you. The problem is that 311 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: Bennett took it too far. He was one of those 312 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: folks from the wild age of medical expertise. Like sometimes 313 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: you'll see tele evangelists who just start calling themselves bishop 314 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: or something. You can kind of do that same thing 315 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: if you're very unethical by calling yourself a doctor in 316 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. Bennett earned a medical degree in eighteen 317 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: but he also started selling medical degrees for ten dollars. 318 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: So he's not he We're just saying he's not the 319 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: most trustworthy sort. He became a tomato evangelist. This guy 320 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: was Mr Tomato. He was circulating this transcript of his 321 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: lecture on how great tomatoes are across Ohio where he 322 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: resided and throughout the United States. And he also wasn't 323 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: the first he He was a heck of a plagiarist. 324 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: There was another physician, Thomas Sewell, who gave a lecture 325 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: in eighteen about Virginia farmers growing tomatoes, and the writer 326 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: Horatio Gates Spafford also wrote about how great the tomato 327 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: was in eighteen thirty one. I picture this guy riding 328 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: around and one of those kind of caravans like in 329 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: The Wizard of Oz, you know the dude like with 330 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: the Miracle Juice who ends up being the wizard spoiler 331 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: alert for for a movie from the thirties, um, you 332 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: know where it's like what's his name, Mr Fantastics, Magical 333 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: Wizard Juice or whatever it was that his picture that 334 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: being kind of a similar deal because this dude was 335 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: clearly you know, pedling this stuff in person um and 336 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: he sort of marketed it as like a remedy but 337 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: then it was a condiment though too write like it 338 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: was a sauce, but then he hired someone to make 339 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: it into like pillform if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, yeah, 340 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: so check this out. This guy is a flam flam 341 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: man and no ding on the tomato. He cited his 342 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: thorough study of ancient text and he said that the 343 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: tomato had always been present in all parts of the world. 344 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: I guess this is for him reading ancient Meso American languages. 345 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: He published recipes for tomatoes and he also you know, 346 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: he he was a proponent of making tomatoes from Ketchup. 347 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: Ketchup could be its own episode because at the time 348 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: Ketchup was still much more I guess closely descended from 349 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: its ancient ancestor garum. It was maybe fish or mushrooms. 350 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: But this is just an echo and just an iteration 351 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: of a theme. People have said the same thing about sassaparilla, mustard, dandelions, 352 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: and rhubarb. But Benet doubled down. He said, you have 353 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: to eat tomatoes. You have to America. You have to 354 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: eat tomatoes, like every day. You have to eat a 355 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: ton of them. And soon, at some point another luminary 356 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: will come along and take all the beautiful chemical properties 357 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: of this plant, of this fruit and put them to use. 358 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: And that is how the tomato pill craze begins in 359 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty seven. Yeah, I sorry, I jumped the gun 360 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: on out on a little bit then, but I appreciate 361 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: you talking about how you know, he he would put 362 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: forth even like these recipes right or he was saying, 363 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: like if you you can know, it's okay to fry 364 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: them up with butter, or like you know, eat them 365 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: raw or whatever however you're gonna take in these tomatoes, 366 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 1: do it. And it really was more of like a 367 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: health craze and then taking to the next level when 368 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: you are in a situation where it was he didn't 369 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: really have an f d A like you would today 370 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: or and certainly not with the same level of rigor. 371 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: And so anyone could just kind of pill something up 372 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: and then just start slinging those two the masses. And 373 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: what better way to get the direct and immediate effects 374 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: of the thing than taking it in pill form. That's like, 375 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: that's like a wave of the future too, right, yeah, absolutely, 376 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean think about how futuristic this feels. It's sort 377 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: of like our earlier episode on uh watching Children and Incubators. Right, 378 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: I can just take a pill. I don't have to 379 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: grow my own tomatoes. This is where Bennett's motivations come 380 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: into play, because he doesn't just believe a genius will 381 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: come mark at this. He looks for one and he 382 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: targets another cod artist, a man named Archibald Miles, which 383 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: is definitely like a a sleazy con artist name in 384 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: something like Oklahoma or whatever. He he approaches this guy 385 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: and he says, look, I want you to be the 386 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: face of these tomato pills. So they make Dr Miles 387 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: is compound extract of tomato, and they're on a pr blitz. Uh. 388 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: Miles claims that his pills have been scientifically tested and 389 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: developed through years of R and D to treat everything 390 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: from like a stomach ache to STDs like syphilis. None 391 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: of this is true, by the way, but people love 392 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: it and they see the ads and they want to 393 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: buy them. And then someone else, a guy named Dr 394 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: oh a eye named guy Dr Guy Are Phelps, who 395 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: is actually a physician who did go to Yale, he 396 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: starts selling his own version. He calls them compound tomato pills, 397 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: and he promises the same largely bs results. Miles loses 398 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: his mind and there's like this like tomato pill war begins, 399 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: that's the best thing to call it. There's an anonymous 400 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: diet tribe that's released in a New York paper that 401 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: is denouncing Guy Phelps his pills and saying they're a 402 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: baseless imitation. You know, all true medical minds know that 403 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: the only real tomato pill is Dr Miles his compound 404 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: extract of tomato. That's no wonder we needed the FDA 405 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: so desperately, which didn't come around until nineteen o six. 406 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: So it was absolutely the wild West of these kind 407 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: of like bold claims, and it was really just like 408 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: almost like a war of marketing right of, like pr 409 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: That's literally all it was, because okay, again, sure there's 410 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: probably some medicinal value to tomatoes in the same way 411 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: like taking a vitamin supplement might you know, give you 412 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: some beneficial results, but it's certainly not going to cure 413 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: all that ails you in the way that this uh 414 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: marketing blitz would have you think. And it was massive. 415 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: Miles had like really good contacts and connections in retail 416 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: that went from like the Gulf Coast all the way 417 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: to Canada, and he didn't really appreciate some of these 418 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: little kind of startups that were coming and trying to 419 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: eat his lunch. And so he had an editorial sent 420 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: into the New York Journal of Commerce that he kind 421 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: of you know, behind the scenes, wrote basically that claimed 422 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: that Phelps was an absolute quack and a charlatan and 423 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: not to be trusted. Um. And then Phelps countered in 424 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: this like pr war, saying that Miles quote had about 425 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: as much claimed the title of doctor as my horse 426 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: and no more are very smart horse for the very 427 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: smart horse, and essentially accused him of stealing his brilliant, 428 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, tomato pill formula. M hmmm. And then of 429 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: course Miles continues the war. He issues endorsements purporting to 430 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: be from other people that say his pills are the 431 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: original and all the other tomato pills are frauds, which 432 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: is funny because even if his pills the original to 433 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: his fraudulent uh, he publishes another article saying that, Okay, yeah, Phelps, 434 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: his pills are a little cheaper, but that's evidence that 435 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: they don't even contain tomatoes. Friends and neighbors, ladies and gentlemen, 436 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: do not let this con artist leave you a straight Phelps, 437 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: replied by Colling Miles. Unjust and unmanly, and for two years, 438 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: the reading public of the United States, and surely the 439 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: newspaper editors love this, and they're just like doubling down 440 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: there doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do 441 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: with journalism. They're probably wishly, increasingly fanciful and crazy claims 442 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: about the power of the one true tomato pill, whichever 443 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: it may be. But that's when the news brokenell. That's 444 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: when people learned that neither pill actually contained any tomatoes. 445 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny to see that now, because obviously 446 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: tomatoes are like at every corner store, they're ubiquitous. But 447 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: Ben the whole point of this is that, like tomatoes 448 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: were kind of a novelty at the time, so they 449 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: were there was a lot of mystery behind them. You know, 450 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: people weren't eating tomatoes. It was not a staple food 451 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: in the country. So that's why this became such a 452 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: craze because they weren't getting it in the other way. 453 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering too, if like we're tomatoes maybe more 454 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: expensive because because they weren't, you know, they were a 455 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: little more of a niche kind of crop. Or I'm 456 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: just wondering, like why, why, why not why not include 457 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: any tomato in the pill? I just that doesn't understand 458 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: like the benefit there if they're really trying to preach 459 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: the gospel of the tomato. But as they knew, it 460 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: was malarkey. It was bananas, I should say bananas, but 461 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: they knew. They knew these pills were a bad tomato 462 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: from the beginning. So every single tomato pill that was 463 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: analyzed included not a trace of the plant. And they 464 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: were still effective in one way because they were placebos, 465 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: but they weren't harmful placebos. It's not like they included 466 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: ingredients that could really hurt you. But they did have 467 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: some medicinal effect as laxatives. So the claim, the way 468 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: they would frame this claim is that taking these pills 469 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: would purify the patient's blood because it would have you 470 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: doing the two steps all the way the restroom multiple 471 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: times to day, and of course having an excess of 472 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: laxatives can all so have delatorious effects. You know, did 473 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: we ever do a show on Louis Armstrong's other career 474 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: as a laxative salesman? Did we mention that? No? We 475 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: we did talk about when he got busted at the 476 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: airport for smuggling weed in his tropic case. That was cool. 477 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: And I believe we've talked about yogurt enemas and that 478 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: whole crazy uh kind of Kellogg, right, whether it was 479 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: the guy that the movie Roade Dwellville was based on, 480 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 1: and he really was into all of these holistic kind 481 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: of healing, which seems to have roots in a lot 482 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: of this kind of thinking, I think he believed it. Uh. 483 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: These folks definitely seem like they were just trying to 484 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: make a quick buck, whereas Kellogg, I believe John Harvey 485 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: did believe in the snake oil that he was peddling. Yeah, 486 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: and and uh, Louis Armstrong. You just go to your 487 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: search browser of choice and check out Louis Armstrong laxatives. 488 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: It's nuts. He was a spokesperson for some laxative companies. Anyhow, 489 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: you're probably wondering why don't I have tomato pills now? Well, 490 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: the answer is that the battle ended seemingly out of 491 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: the blue in eighteen thirty nine. We still don't know 492 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: what happened, but behind the scenes, historians think that Phelps 493 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: and Miles either came to an agreement or they realized 494 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: that the jig was up and they wouldn't you know, 495 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: maybe they made enough money. Tomato pills were still sold, 496 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: but the national advertising campaigns ended in spring for Phelps 497 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: and in summer for Miles, and Miles went on to 498 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: become a real estate investor, but he still described himself 499 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: as a physician. Phelps founded a life insurance company in 500 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: Connecticut and continued selling his pills, but without national networking 501 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: right or infrastructure into the early eighteen fifties, and although 502 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: the buzz about tomato pills started to die down, the 503 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: tomato was now solidified in the zeitgeist of the US. Yeah, 504 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean we could, I could. There's so many you know, 505 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: Italian cuisine for example, the uh okay, let's let me 506 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: back up a step just I think the popularization of 507 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: more um, let's just say universal cuisine is a relatively 508 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: new thing because it required ability to communicate in the 509 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: ability to kind of share ideas from around the world, 510 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: and so much amazing cuisine that I think, you know, 511 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: people love and depend on, um that have obviously been 512 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: commodified and turned into chain restaurants like Olive Garden and such. 513 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: Uh so much tomato involved in all of these things, 514 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: from pasta sauces to you know, pizza bases, to Mexican food, 515 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: I mean salsa for example. There's so many incredible cuisine 516 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: that really depend on tomato. And even beyond that, just 517 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: things like that are very American, like stews and fried 518 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 1: green tomatoes and like Southern cooking, lots of that, like 519 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: suck a tash, you know, tomatoes and corn and black 520 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: eyed peas and all of that really became a very 521 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: American tradition. So yeah, it absolutely caught on in the zeitgeist. 522 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: Um it became a side dish people like them, just 523 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: raw with a little salt and pepper on it, with 524 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: eggs and meat and fish as a side. Um, tomato 525 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: pie is a thing who Josh Faine, one of our colleagues, 526 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: who's an amazing editor and producer. UM with our our 527 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: compatriot Matt Frederick's team, UM always posted this amazing tomato 528 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: pie that he makes or tarts. Obviously an important base 529 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: for soups. Yeah, that's right. And people started praising the 530 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: adaptability and versatility of the tomato. You can have it 531 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: as a part of any given meal, and by the 532 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: early eighteen fifties, millions of bushels of tomatoes were grown 533 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: in New England alone. And it reminds me of one 534 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: story we haven't mentioned today because it's somewhat apocryphal. There's 535 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: there's this old tale that a guy named Colonel Robert 536 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: Gibbon Johnson of Salem, New Jersey, brought the tomato home 537 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: from abroad in eighteen o eight and people still considered 538 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: back at that time, people still considered it ornamental rather 539 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: than a food stuff. And so on September, so the 540 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: story goes, he said, I'm going to prove that the 541 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: tomato is not poisonous and it can be safely eaten. 542 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: So he stood on the steps of the Salem courthouse 543 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: and ate an entire basket of tomatoes while people gathered 544 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: to watch him get sick and die. When he didn't die, 545 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: apparently I've sold the tomato again. That's not you know 546 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: that that's not solidly proven, but it's a great story, 547 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: I guess. For our epilogue, we can say, you know, 548 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that we brought up as 549 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: far as health benefits are true. Tomatoes can decrease your 550 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: risk of osteoporosis of several types of cancer, and as 551 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: you said and old, they're rich in lecopine. Yeah, And 552 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: like I said, I did see a study just in 553 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: the news today, um where it's being tested for improving 554 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: sperm count and and there are some potential real benefits there, 555 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: so it's not all bs. And also, you know, I 556 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: get why people were a little distrustful of the tomato 557 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: in its raw form. I certainly was. I didn't like 558 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: raw tomatoes until I was well into my like twenties, honestly, 559 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: and I still not something I would just eat a 560 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: slice of on its own, But I'm getting there. I 561 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: really do like it on a salad now, I like 562 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: you obviously on burgers and stuff. And I'm just a 563 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: huge fan of like cooking them down to make you know, 564 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: really really good ragou and and all that. And I 565 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: know that you you're fond of that too, Ben, You're 566 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: a you're a cooking man. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. And 567 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: also just a nice heirloom tomato with a little bit 568 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: of salt and pepper, you know, when they're in season. 569 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: But here's the thing I always try to explain to people, 570 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: if a food seems acceptable to you now. And it 571 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: feels ridiculous to imagine people being scared of tomatoes in 572 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: the past. Remember they've never seen one before, you know, 573 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: they this was their first time, so of course it's weird, 574 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: and you've heard all these myths about it. Uh. I 575 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: always like the cheese comparison. I was talking to some 576 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: of my friends who were from Southeast Asia recently, and 577 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: just imagine this. If you've never seen cheese before and 578 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: someone describes it to you and then and then ask 579 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: if you want to try it, bear with me, bear 580 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: with you there was the mold is the good part 581 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: what you want? So so it's weird, you know, we 582 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 1: have to we have to have an open mind. Um, 583 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: you know. The last thing I have to say about 584 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: this is we mentioned astute listeners. All our listeners are astute. 585 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: We mentioned something about witchcraft and werewolves from that Atlas 586 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: Obscura article. Uh, this goes back to the man drake 587 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: confusion because man drake, nightshade, henbane and so on are 588 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: pretty close botanical relatives of the tomato. There was this 589 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: whole thing about about some of these night shade like 590 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: things is being used in which is brew for their broomsticks, 591 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: which we covered it in earlier episode, or being used 592 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: to transform people into wolves. So it's possible that there 593 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: were Europeans who were like, try a tomato, Uh, I 594 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: might get branded a which so luckily, luckily, we have 595 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: proven that eating a tomato does not make you a 596 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: we're a wolf. Well, let's not forget the place that 597 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: the tomato holds in terms of pillory ing folks that 598 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: are like in the stocks or whatever, either like a 599 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: crime or just bad stand up comedy or like, you know, 600 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: rotten tomatoes because they squish. There's a whole website called 601 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: Rotten Tomatoes that devoted to talking trash about movies. So 602 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: it's definitely got an interesting role in that side of 603 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: pop culture as well. But don't take our word for it. 604 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: You can read up more about tomatoes on this fantastic 605 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: mental fluss article when tomatoes were marketed as medicine, or 606 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: the ass forementioned Atlas Obscure article about that. It goes 607 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: a lot more into tomatoes roles in Witchcraft and and 608 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: were Wolfrey In the meantime, huge thanks to producer Casey 609 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: Pegraham joining Christopher Hasciotas in the Clouds in Spirit this time. 610 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: Hopefully he's back very soon. Um he he is on 611 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: adventures as you would say, Ben, Big thanks to Christopher 612 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 1: Hasciotas hopefully keeping good watch on top producer Casey Pegraham 613 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: in the spirit realm Um Alex Williams who composed our theme, 614 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: and as always, huge thanks to our own rotten Tomato 615 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland a k a. The Quister. I really enjoying this. 616 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: I've got this new habit where I'm just trying to 617 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: make topical references to him in the thank you. We'll 618 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: see if it works out. Also big big thanks to 619 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: our own main man research wise Gabe l who is 620 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: hopefully snacking on a tomato sandwich right now. Weird story no, 621 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: I have a close friend person named Diana Brown who 622 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: might be listening to this episode today. Who introduced me 623 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: to tomato sandwich is there's just tomatoes and mayonnaise. I 624 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: think it's like the weirdest thing ever. I'm just not 625 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: on board with it. What why not just add the 626 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: bacon and make it a b l T I would 627 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: just see it? Why stop? Like, why stop halfway? Anyway, 628 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,439 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode. We want to hear 629 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: your weird food history stories. Also shout out to for 630 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: anyone who loves reading about the history of food. Mark 631 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: Kurlansky wrote a great book called Salt, who wrote another 632 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: great book called cod Let's see if we can get 633 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: them to write some books about vegetables in the future. 634 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts for 635 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 636 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.