1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: we are back with part three of our series on 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: the Goat and the Devil, where we are exploring reasons 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: for the some would say unfair association in especially Christian cultures, 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: between the ordinary domestic goat, a wonderful animal, and the 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: demonic realm of sin and flames. Now, in previous episodes, 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: we've talked about the basic biology of the goat is 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: a browsing bovid that was once adapted to harsher environments 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: like mountains and forests, but sometime many thousands of years ago, 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: was domesticated by the humans who used to hunt it. 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: We talked about mythical inspirations for later goatman devil's paly, 14 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: lying in the figure of the Greek god Pan and 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: in the satyrs and fawns that bore his image. We 16 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: talked about goat reproduction and goat voices. How it's possible 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: that goats could be interpreted as sinful by judgmental human 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: eyes because because of the he goat's reputation for being 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: very enthusiastic about mating and the idea that it's possible 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: people have seen goats as uncanny because sometimes some goats, 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: when they kind of moan and scream, they sound freakishly human. Uh. 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: In the second episode, we talked about the role of 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: goats in the Hebrew Bible, where they could be associated 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: with demonic forces because of the ritual of the Day 25 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: of Atonement, where it is said that one goat is 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: sent off into the wilderness to carry the sins of 27 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: the people off for as a zel, and that that 28 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: name is sometimes interpreted as some kind of demonic power. 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: We also talked about goats in the Christian New Testament, 30 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: where Jesus is said to have given apocalyptic preaching that 31 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: when the Son of Man comes to bring the of 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: the age, he will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. 33 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: And what's the image use there. It's as the shepherd 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: separates the sheep from the goats. The goats are the 35 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: bad ones. And finally, we also talked about goat lore 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: from around the world to point out that the association 37 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: between goats and evil is by no means universal. There 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: are some very interesting counter examples in Chinese mythology in 39 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: Basque mythology with this figure of the black billy goat 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: deity who protects livestock and so forth. So it's been 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: a wild ride so far, a wild goat ride. But 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: to kick things off today, I wanted to come back 43 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: to our discussion about the particular uh features of goat 44 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: biology that people of centuries past might possibly have interpreted 45 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: as devilish or sinful in one way uh in someone 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: in one way or another. And the example I wanted 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: to look at here is goat eyes. One might argue 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: that you haven't really been stared at until you've been 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: stared at by a goat, And part of the reason 50 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: for that is when you're being stared at by a goat, 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: you're not quite sure if you're being stared at by 52 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: a goat. That's right. It comes down to the the 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: the inhuman shape of the goat pupils. Yeah yeah uh. 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: And before I get there, I want to say that 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: the goats stare does not have to be imbued with 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: any kind of menace. I came across a a very sweet, 57 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: whimsical little poem. I wanted to read a bit from 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: this is by the British Canadian poet Robert Service, who 59 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: wrote a poem called the Goat and I and uh 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: it goes each sunny day upon my way a goat 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: I pass. He has a beard of silver gray and 62 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: a bell of brass, And all the while I am 63 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: in sight, he seems to muse and stares at me 64 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: with all his might, and choose, and choose upon the hill, 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: so timy, sweet with joy of spring, he hails me 66 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: with a tiny bleat of welcoming. Though half the globe 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: is drenched with blood and cities flare contentedly, he choose 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: the cud and does not care. Oh gentle friend, I 69 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: know not what your age maybe, but of my years 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: I'd give the lot yet left to me to chew 71 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: a thistle and not choke, but bright of eye gaze 72 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: at the old world, weary bloke who hobbles by. This 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: is great. I love how this drives some like an 74 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: overall interpretation of goat physiology that that I think we 75 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: can often fall into, and that is of the goat 76 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: as the old goat, Like there's even if a goat. 77 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: You do see some goats that look, you know, very 78 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: virile and young, and in a goatish fashion, but oftentimes 79 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: you'll encounter goats who do kind of hobble about there. 80 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: They have all these likenesses that we attribute to elderly 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 1: human individuals. You know, you'll have the beard and so forth. 82 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: But but yeah, this is a neat little poem summing 83 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: up the uh, the independent and relatable spirit of the goat. Oh. 84 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: I also I left off a final stanza where essentially 85 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: the last stance is just like, why am I writing 86 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: a poem about a goat? It's not great? Um so, 87 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: but yeah, anyway, the gaze of the goat has often 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: been observed to have a strange character in one way 89 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: or another. Sometimes it's it's more like what services saying here, 90 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: almost narcotically placid and unmoved. And yet other times people 91 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: notice that the gaze of the goat is kind of 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: thrillingly alien, because, unlike with a dog or a cat, 93 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: it can be hard to tell if a goat is 94 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: actually looking at you, or at least for me, it can. 95 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: Despite the efforts of Robert's service, the the eye of 96 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: the goat has often been characterized as creepy, and I 97 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: think there could be a couple of reasons for that. 98 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: It might be because it's a bit harder to tell 99 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: where the goat is focusing than it is with some 100 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: other kind of animals, like our predatory companion animals um 101 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's just because the eye of a goat 102 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: sort of looks weird. It looks unusual if you're not 103 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: used to it, because laws instead of around pupil as 104 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: you alluded to earlier, Rob, the goat has a horizontal 105 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: pupil sometimes described as rectangular in shape I think sometimes 106 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: kind of described as like elongated capsule shape, so it's 107 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: like a rectangle with kind of rounded edges. I've also 108 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: found some photos where it looks like a horizontal capital 109 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: I with a hint of those cross beams or slight 110 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: bulges at the ends of the rectangle. And the question 111 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: is why do goat pupils look that way? Well, funny enough, 112 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: we actually did an episode just a while back which 113 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: contained a segment about the evolutionary reasoning behind different pupil 114 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: shapes in the Animal Kingdom. The episode was The Three 115 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: Pupil Die, and I think the study we talked about 116 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: in that show is still a good one to inform 117 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: us on the question I've just raised. So to to 118 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: bring up the same paper again. This was by Martins 119 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: Banks at All published in the journal Science Advances in 120 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: and it's called why do Animal eyes have pupils of 121 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: different shapes? Basic conclusion is that an animal's pupil shape 122 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: is usually determined by what its ecological niches, what its 123 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: role in the food chain is. So animals like humans, tigers, 124 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: and wolves have round pupils. Round pupils appear to be 125 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: common a common shape for active hunters who chase down 126 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: their prey. Meanwhile, predators that are lower to the ground 127 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: or hunt by way of ambush, so a predator that 128 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: might lie in wait and then pound suddenly on a 129 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: prey animal, these tend to have vertical pupils vertically oriented 130 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: slit pupils, and the vertical slits seem to be adaptive 131 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 1: for low down ambush predators because they're helpful in using 132 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: tricks called stereopsis and defocus blur to very precisely judge 133 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: the distance needed for a single uh exact medium range pounds. 134 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: But herbivores prey animals are more likely to have horizontal 135 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: pupils like the goat UH. To quote from the study, 136 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: horizontally elongated pupils creates sharp images of horizontal contours ahead 137 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: and behind, creating a horizontally panoramic view that facilitates detection 138 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: of predators from various directions and forward locomotion across uneven terrain. 139 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: So these horizontal pupils are good for scanning the whole 140 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: panorama of the environment, seeing at all angles of all 141 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: the time to watch out for any approaching predators, which 142 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: might be one of the reasons you can get that 143 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: creepy feeling where you can't tell if the goat is 144 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: actually looking at you. The goat is sort of designed 145 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: by nature to be looking everywhere rather than to be 146 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: looking at you. But I also thought it's an interesting 147 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: note about the forward locomotion across uneven terrain given the 148 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: the evolutionary history of goats occupying mountains and craggy landscape. 149 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: Though again, less craggy creatures like horses also have horizontal pupils. 150 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: So that made me wonder about the question why do 151 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: we tend to notice the horizontal orientation of goat pupils 152 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: more than we notice it in horses and other herbivores. 153 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: I think this must be a common thing. It's at 154 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: least true for me, and so I was looking into this. 155 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: Uh And I want to make two non expert observations 156 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: just by looking at a lot of photos on Google. 157 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: One is that the horse pupil seems less noticeably elongated 158 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: in the horizontal dimension than the goat pupil. So they're 159 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: both horizontal, but the horse pupil seems a little bit 160 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: shorter usually or the goat went off and looks visibly 161 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: stretched out. Second, and I think this might be even 162 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: more important, there seems to be, on average, a stronger 163 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: color contrast within the goat's eye. If you just look 164 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: at a bunch of pictures of the eyes of horses 165 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: and the eyes of goats, it seems goats on average 166 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: have lighter colored irises, which really makes the pupil pop. 167 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: That makes the people stand out, which makes it look 168 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: more noticeably alien, at least to me. Interesting. I remember 169 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: in that episode on The Three People that I we 170 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: talked about pupil changes in the shape of the pupil 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: with predators tended to vary as well depending on height. Yeah, yeah, 172 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: that's right, But I don't remember any such distinction being 173 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: made in the materials we were looking at then regarding herbivores, 174 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: like if goat versus cow versus horse, etcetera. Yeah, I 175 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: don't recall any distinction like that either, but definitely there 176 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: was a change in height, uh in in predators, because again, 177 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: the taller predators have round pupils and the shorter predators 178 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: have vertical slip pupils. Uh. And so part of that 179 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: has to do with a difference in hunting strategy, like 180 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: chasing versus ambushing, But part of it has to do 181 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: also with just I think, managing the angles at which 182 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: you would be observing your prey. Now, this instantly makes 183 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: me think of something that I guess we got into 184 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: a little bit in the three people that Eyes. What 185 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: sort of eyes do we expect? Knowing all of this 186 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: of divine beings and divine emissaries, Uh, certainly in the 187 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: like the Irish and uh in some Chinese traditions that 188 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: we discussed in that episode, we talked about the idea 189 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: of someone with three pupils or three irises being uh 190 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: in some way enlightened and having superior vision and perhaps 191 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: wisdom as well. UH. But but taking all that we've 192 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: discussed here into the scenario, it's like, Okay, if we 193 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: have some sort of god or godlike being or anti 194 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: god taking on the head and eyes of a goat. Well, 195 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: in a way, it's it seems more fitting. It's like, 196 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: uh that this is a being that can look in 197 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: many directions at once and doesn't need to focus its 198 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: attention and maybe doesn't focus its attention all that much. 199 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: And hey, being a god, maybe you don't want its 200 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: attention focused too heavily. Well. Also, the thinking about the 201 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: predator prey distinction, I mean, shouldn't the horizontal pupils make 202 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: it less dangerous, Like wouldn't round pupils or really be 203 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: the most dangerous. Yeah, But then I get it comes 204 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: down to the human scenario, right. We want to we 205 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: want to connect with the human in the superhuman, and 206 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: therefore we want them to have pupils. Though I guess 207 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: we see, especially in modern depictions, you know, we love 208 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: to like black out the eyes of inhuman beings, uh, 209 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, often with those really cool contact lenses. So 210 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: we'll have various there's so many treatments of this where 211 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: various fallen angels and so forth, we'll have all black 212 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: eyes or maybe all white eyes, and that tends to 213 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: note some sort of strangeness of vision as well. Yeah, 214 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: I think you're right about that. Like, sometimes otherworldly beings 215 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: are just depicted as having eyes like that, sometimes their 216 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: eyes change into all white or all black or something 217 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: when they are exercising a type of second sight. Wait, 218 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: it sometimes works quite well, though sometimes you're kind of 219 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: I think you're kind of inconveniencing your actors by taking 220 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: away their eyes, are taking away one of their tools. Well, 221 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: maybe we should look at a little bit more goat 222 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: mythology and goat symbolism in history. I think if we're 223 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: trying to figure out why, especially a lot of say 224 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: Continental European Christian cultures made an association between the devil 225 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: and goats, I think we must talk about the figure 226 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: known as Baha Met. Yeah, and this is this is 227 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: a fascinating but also kind of convoluted UH situation because 228 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: it involves multiple different cultures either appropriating or interpreting or 229 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: misinterpreting or outlight rights slandering something that other culture, the 230 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: previous cultures or or or different cultures believed in or 231 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: believe in UH. And the end result is this um, 232 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: this strange satanic goat creature that you're more likely to 233 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: encounter now in a TV show or on a heavy 234 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: metal T shirt, that sort of thing. So I covered 235 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: some of this in a Monster Fact episode about the 236 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: Goat of Mendis that came about UH shortly after we 237 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: recorded a weird House cinema episode on the film The 238 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: Devil Rides Out, which prominently features Uh the Satanic goatman 239 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: appearing at a black mass. And so this this entity 240 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: Bapha May or the Goat of Mendi's is essentially a 241 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: Western occultists distortion of a Greek interpretation of the God 242 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: of Egypt, the Egyptian god known as but neb Jadette 243 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: Uh that was worshiped in Mendis, which is the Greek 244 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: name for an ancient Egyptian city named Jadette, also known 245 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: today as tell L Ruba. Fifth century Greek historian Herodotus 246 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: wrote of this god and his practices and made veiled 247 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: references to sexual aspects of the worship, and also compared 248 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: the entity to Pan, of course, from from Western traditions. 249 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: So all already, I know this. This sounds like some 250 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: sort of You can imagine like the different pins on 251 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: a board with the different bits of string colored string 252 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: showing you where all this is going across a map 253 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: of of Europe. And North Africa. So here's a quote 254 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: from from Herodotus via S. Birch's translation. Quote. Now, the 255 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: reason why those of the Egyptians whom I have mentioned 256 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: do not sacrifice goats, female or male, is this The 257 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: Mendians count Pan to be one of the eight gods. Now, 258 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: these eight gods, they say, came into being before the 259 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: twelve gods, and the painters and image makers represent in 260 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: painting and in sculpture the figure of Pan, just as 261 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: the Helenes do with goat's face and legs, not supposing 262 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: him to be really like this, but to resemble the 263 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: other gods. The cause, however, why they represent him in 264 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: this form, I prefer not to say. The Mendesian's then 265 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: reverence all goats, and the males more than the females, 266 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: and the goatherds too have greater honor than other herdsman. 267 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: But the goats one especially is reverenced, and when he 268 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: dies there is great mourning in all the Mendisian district, 269 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: and both the goat and Pan are called in the 270 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Egyptian tongue Mendies. Okay, So, not knowing exactly what's going 271 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: on here, I would wonder if Herodotus is seriously misinterpreting 272 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: reports he has heard about Egyptian worship in light of 273 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: Greek religion. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's there's clearly a 274 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: lot going on, like using Greek religion to try and 275 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: understand what uh individuals in this region are worshiping going 276 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: You know, there's so many ways that the information here 277 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: can become skewed. We have this veiled um reference to 278 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: uh I believe other critics have pointed out that he's 279 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: he's referencing supposed beast reality uh in worship and so forth. 280 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: So already we're engaging in uh In in various levels 281 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: of misinterpretation and perhaps slander. Now, as Geraldine Pinch explains 282 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: in her excellent book Egyptian Mythology, the word for ram 283 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: bah and the word for soul or manifestation sound much 284 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: the same in Egyptian uh to the ancient Egyptians, so 285 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: they were often regarded as manifestations of other deities such 286 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: as Osiris and Pinch rights quote. The sexual aspect of 287 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: the culted Mendis made it particularly disliked by early Christians, 288 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: but Nebjudet's form as a ram or goat headed man 289 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: was reinterpreted as a devil figure who entered Western tradition 290 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: as the Horned King of the Witches. A classic example 291 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: of literal demonization, taking a god in in another mythology, 292 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: in this case one having the head of a of 293 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: a sheep or a goat, and saying that, well, actually, 294 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: this is just a demon in our mythology, right right, 295 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: But of course they gets more complicated than that. They are. 296 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: All these are additional threads going on here, because as 297 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: for the the actual name Goat of Mendis, this is 298 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: the name given by French right or Elfeus Levi in 299 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, most likely referencing the writings of Herodotus. 300 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: The most well known image of this particular monstrous humanoid 301 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: is in the eighteen fifties sixth edition of Levi's book 302 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: Dogma and Ritual of High Magic. And as with any 303 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: many examples of divine and occult imagery, the image of 304 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: Baha may here Is or the Goat of Mendes is 305 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: highly symbolic, and it's been incorporated into various occult traditions, subcultures, 306 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: new religious movements, and so forth. I think everyone's probably 307 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: seen this. This is the like a a goat being 308 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: with the the upper body of sometimes a female, but 309 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: sometimes like half the chest is female half as male. 310 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: They're like black angelic wings, the goat head, the pentagram 311 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: on the forehead, a middle horn that is like a torch, 312 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: various other symbols going on in the image as load 313 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: it with stuff to look at. Yeah, yeah, so, I 314 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: mean as far as images of the divine or the demonic, 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: it's a pretty great one. There's lots to focus on, 316 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: lots to try and figure out. And at the very least, 317 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed many times before, the basic 318 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: symbolism involved here of combining beast with man or beast 319 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: with woman, et cetera. Like, it instantly starts forming patterns 320 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: in the mind. You can't look at it and not 321 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: have some sort of reaction. Oh. I don't know if 322 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: I've noticed this before, but at least in Levi's depiction, 323 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: it incorporates a symbol that is like the caduceus or 324 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: like the rod of Asclepius. It has the rod and 325 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: the snakes intertwined around it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, as for 326 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: the name Baha may here this gets us into something 327 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: that we've we've touched on a few times in the 328 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: on the show before never devoted like full episode to it, 329 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: but it it involves the Templars, the poor Knights of 330 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: Christ and the Temple of Solomon's. Just to to get 331 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: the basics out here again. This was a religious military 332 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: order of the Catholic Church during the Crusades, which ran 333 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: about roughly ten through twelve UH. They were This organization 334 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: was intended to serve as a as a as a 335 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: way to protect pilgrims on their way to the Holy Lands, 336 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: but a sort of power creep occurred. They were given 337 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: free rein to move across borders, They were made exempt 338 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: from taxes and ended up playing key military roles in 339 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: various battles of the Crusades, and even the non warriors 340 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: became important, managing the movement of funds across vast distances 341 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: UH that were involved in the Crusades and setting up 342 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: a kind of proto banking system. They became powerful, and 343 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: so they made powerful enemies, and as the Crusades failed, 344 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: the Templars were blamed and finally Fillip the Fourth of France, 345 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: with the aid of Pope Clement the Fifth, who was 346 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: then based in France UM, they pressed the order and 347 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: falsely accused them or generally everyone. I think most sources 348 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: and historians agree that these are false or trumped up 349 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: charges of blasphemy and heresy, saying that, among other things, 350 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: they worshiped a severed head called Baha may Uh. There's 351 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: a whole litany of charges against them. Some of them 352 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: were burned at the stake, I think fifty six in total, 353 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: and that included Grandmaster Jacques Delay and others. Other members 354 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: of the order were absorbed into different militaries and so forth. Now, 355 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: the name Bappa may here is generally understood to be 356 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: a French corruption of the name Muhammad, the most of 357 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: the monstrous templar god. Bapha may is therefore a product 358 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: of trumped up charges that the templars had converted to 359 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: the Islamic faith of their enemies, and the French and 360 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Papal accusers invoked this fanciful and grotesque degradation of Islam 361 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: to make their case, because, to be clear, nowhere in 362 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: Islamic traditions do you find a creature like this. So 363 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: it's essentially the monster at the heart of a xenophobic 364 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory Uh created to slander ones political enemies. In 365 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. Yes, pretty much this, And there's a 366 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: lot more to the to all of this as well, 367 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: And certainly when you get into writings about the templars, 368 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: there's they're added theories, some perhaps worth talking about, some 369 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: worth skipping over unless you're engaging in just like pure entertainment, 370 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: I suppose. But but yeah, this seems to be the 371 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: most straightforward explanation. And it is kind of interesting how 372 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: in this you have something that is put together as 373 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: a corruption, as a slander, uh, and over time it 374 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: kind of takes on life of its own. It becomes 375 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: used as a symbol of liberation, becomes used as a 376 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: symbol of rebellion against organized religion, it becomes used as 377 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: a a part of new religious movements. Even so, it's 378 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: always fascinating the life of symbols and the life of 379 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: ideas like this. Well, speaking of rebellion, there is one 380 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: more biological feature of goats that I wanted to talk about. 381 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: If you're ready, Robert, or are you ready to get 382 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: into goat intelligence, let's do it. I think this one 383 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: is interesting because while I don't think this is a 384 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: primary reason that the goats would be identified with devils 385 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: or with the legions of Hell, I do I do 386 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: think there is some interesting resonances here, and we can 387 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: come back to that, But basically I was just thinking 388 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: what is more readily identified with evil than intelligence? Right, 389 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: because intelligence is often associated with a tendency toward rebellion, 390 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: or a tendency maybe to think a little too critically 391 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: about what somebody is telling you to do. And while 392 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: goats are not generally a species known for how smart 393 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: they are, there's some evidence that at least in some ways, 394 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: they might be more clever than we give them credit for, 395 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: but that it's also a kind of intelligence that is 396 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: sort of alien to human primate intelligence. So I want 397 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: to look at a paper by L. D. F. Briefer 398 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: at All published in Frontiers in Zoology called Goats excel 399 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: at Learning and Remembering, a highly novel cognitive task, published 400 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: in ten to explain the context of what the authors 401 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: were trying to figure out here, They begin by highlighting 402 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: a couple of competing frameworks for explaining the evolution of 403 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: higher intelligence. One you might call the social intelligence hypothesis, 404 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: and the other you might call the ecological competence hypothesis. 405 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: The social hypothesis argues that the evolution of intelligence and 406 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: higher cognition is primarily for managing relationships between individuals within 407 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: a social species. So there are obvious huge survival benefits 408 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: to being social and working together, and I think there's 409 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: a very good case to be made that that is 410 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: what primarily explains the success of humans as a species 411 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: of animal. But there are also a lot of unique 412 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: problems that arise when animals congregate in social groups and 413 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: perform or try to perform any cooperative behaviors. The social 414 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: hypothesis would say that animals need intelligence in order to 415 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: get as many benefits as possible from social cooperation and 416 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: to negate the possible downsides of social cooperation, so to 417 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: do things like maintain group cohesion and reduce conflict between 418 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: group members. Meanwhile, the competing ecological competence hypothesis would say 419 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: that the evolution of intelligence is mainly for uh increasing 420 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: survival advantage when faced with the problems posed by the environment. 421 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: And in a sense, the world is a puzzle, and 422 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: the better you are at solving that puzzle, the more 423 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: likely you are to survive. So examples would be fine 424 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: ending ways to extract difficult access nutrition during foraging, remembering 425 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: the locations of important resources and threats and things like that. 426 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: And these views would tend to also have implications for 427 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: the type of learning that we see in different animals, 428 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: because creatures with social intelligence tend to be capable of 429 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 1: social learning. This is a very important concept. Social learning 430 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: is the ability to learn not only by doing, but 431 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: to learn by watching others. So when you learn how 432 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: to do a task by observing someone else doing it, 433 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: that's social learning, and it's a very important ability. That 434 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: is arguably what makes it possible for human beings to 435 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: have technology, civilization, and culture. Animals with the largest brains 436 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: and the most advanced cognition tend to usually be social animals, 437 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: and the authors right that quote. The prevalent view today 438 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: is that intelligent species should excel at social learning. But 439 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: the authors argue that a lot of this research is 440 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: focused on primates, which we already know are very smart, 441 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: they have relatively large brains, and we already know they're 442 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: very social. But what would happen if we studied this 443 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: on this question on relatively smaller brained mammals. What if 444 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: we test this theory on the goat? Goats have a 445 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: few interesting characteristics. They not only have relatively smaller brains, 446 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: than primates. Also, the domestication process itself tends to lead 447 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: to a decrease in brain size when compared to wild ancestors. 448 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I mean, domestic animals have fewer puzzles to solve. Let's say, uh, 449 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: and this could also affect cognition and the author's right quote. 450 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: Goats possess several features commonly associated with advanced cognition, such 451 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: as successful colonization of new environments and complex fission fusion societies. 452 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: To briefly explain both of those, I guess colonization of 453 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: new environments is fairly self explanatory. You know, goats um 454 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: they have a pretty adventurous relationship of the natural world, 455 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: and they can they can spread into areas where it's 456 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: harder for other animals to survive, but they thrive there, 457 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: so that they're they're getting something out of the environment 458 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: that some other animals can't quite get. But the other 459 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting is the complex fission fusion societies. This 460 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: means animals that live together in groups, but they are 461 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: able to uh, sort of alter those groups in a 462 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: fluid way and then and then come back together. So 463 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: an example would be humans live in fission fusion societies 464 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: We live in groups, but those groups separate off into subgroups. 465 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: They separate, and they come back together. The groups change sizes, 466 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: People separate on their own and do different tasks and 467 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: then rejoin. That's fission fusion. So the authors here tested 468 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: out goat intelligence and memory on what they call a 469 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: food box cognitive challenge, a much a puzzle box with 470 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: a special lever that a goat had to learn how 471 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: to operate in order to access food, and there were 472 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: different conditions in this experiment. Wouldn't make a difference to 473 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: a goat's ability to learn how to use this box 474 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: if the goat were able to watch another goat opening 475 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: the box successfully a k a. Social learning and the 476 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: authors in in the results section right quote, the majority 477 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: of trained goats nine out of twelve, successfully learned the 478 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: task quickly, on average within twelve trials at intervals of 479 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: up to ten months. They solved the task within two minutes, 480 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: indicating excellent long term memory. The goats did not learn 481 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: the task faster after observing a demonstrator than if they 482 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: did not have that opportunity. This indicates that they learned 483 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: through individual rather than social learning, so goats pretty smart. 484 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: They learned the task pretty well. They can solve the 485 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: puzzle most of the time, and they're able to remember 486 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: that lution pretty well in the long term. Ten months later, 487 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: you give them another puzzle box, they get into it 488 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: pretty fast. But the goats did not seem to benefit 489 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: from watching the struggles of other goats at all, So 490 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: they did not display signs of social learning. And I 491 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: think that's kind of interesting because goats are to some 492 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: degree social they live in herds, but biologically they're not 493 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: oriented to learn in a cooperative way. They can't learn, 494 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: at least according to this finding, by watching other goats 495 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: do the way we can. And the authors say that 496 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: this would provide some evidence that the evolution of goat 497 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: cognition is driven more by ecological competence pressure than by 498 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: social intelligence pressure. So they think, you know, what's pushing 499 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: goats to uh, to be able to think more efficiently 500 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: is probably more the stuff about trying to extract solve 501 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: puzzles in the environment. How do you extract the maximum 502 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: amount of foraging resources from this area? How do you 503 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: remember where cashes of food are? How do you remember 504 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: where threats are? And things like that. Rather than using 505 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: that intelligence to try to maintain relationships within the group 506 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: like you might see in chimpanzees. Yeah, now that makes sense. 507 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: Based on my limited experience with with goat mischief. It 508 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: tends to be things like you're at a petting zoo 509 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: and you have a you have a map of the 510 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: zoo sticking out of your pocket. Somebody decides to sneak 511 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: that out of your pocket and start eating it. Um, 512 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, or I've I've spoken this problem solving problem. 513 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: It's curiosity is pure curiosity? Is it food? I shall investigate? Um? 514 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: I know. Other situations that have come up of the 515 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: from some goat farmers that i've I've spoken to in 516 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: the past have been like the goat wants to find 517 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: out how to get on top of something and doing 518 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: that and may find well find its way out of 519 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: an enclosure. So that sort of thing, right, So clever 520 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: problem solving within the physical space, but less so within 521 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: the social arena. So one might be tempted to say 522 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: that crap, the antisocial goats cast long and sinister shadows. However, 523 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to put another weight on the scale, sort 524 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: of on the other side of the scale, And this 525 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: was a study I was looking at by Christian now 526 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: roth at all published in Biology letters in called goats 527 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: display audience dependent human directed gazing behavior in a problem 528 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: solving task. In the background of this one is the 529 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: observation that, okay, domestication, when you domesticate a wild animal, 530 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: this clearly affects the animal's brain and its cognition. A 531 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,239 Speaker 1: domestic dog simply does not think and solve problems the 532 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: same way its nearest wild relative would. Uh. You know, 533 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: dog dog thinking is way different than wolf thinking. But 534 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: how much of this difference is a result of straight 535 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: domestication and how much is the result of the fact 536 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: that dogs are domesticated specifically as companions. Yeah? And this, yeah, 537 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: certainly we get into the whole scenario where we often 538 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: talk about dogs and cats and other close domesticated animals 539 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: as we talk about how they look at humans, what 540 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: do they think humans are? And I know they're they're 541 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: different interpretations, but I know that it's often said, well, 542 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: like a cat thinks you may think that you are 543 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: another cat. I've I've heard, you know, they think you're 544 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: another kitten, or they think you're its mom, that sort 545 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: of thing. Dogs, I believe, tend to look at at 546 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: their humans kind of like their dogs, right, Well, to 547 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: some extent, I mean you can tell that there is 548 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: a there's a very natural, inclusive kind of social relationship 549 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: with dogs to humans, so they acclimatize easily to humans. 550 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: On on the other hand, there seems to be a 551 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: kind of special thing with humans, right where like you 552 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: have these studies where you give a dog a puzzle 553 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: that it cannot solve, like it can't get the treat 554 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: out of the puzzle box, And is it going to 555 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: look at the other dog in the room for help 556 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: or look at the human for help? It's going to 557 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: look at the human right, right, And and I don't 558 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: have any studies to back this up, but I mean 559 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: this seems to be the case with cats as well, 560 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: Like the cats will come to the human, they will 561 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: use their special meal that that is a way of 562 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: communicating with the humans, as if they are like the 563 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: mama cat that will fix things. Yeah, but with the goat, Yeah, 564 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: where do we go with that? Because as we've we've 565 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 1: already established like there's a different underlying social dynamic. Right, 566 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: But what the authors here found, just to read from 567 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: their abstract, they say, quote, we investigated human directed behavior 568 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: in an unsolvable problem task in a domestic but non 569 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: companion species goats. Okay, so they're giving goats sort of 570 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: like a puzzle box that they can't solve. There, there's 571 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: clearly an outcome they want, but they can't achieve it 572 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: on their own. It's not like they, you know, the 573 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: lever that they could figure out with a few tries 574 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: in the other experiment. They can't win this game, so 575 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: the author's right quote. During the test, goats experienced stay 576 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: forward facing or an away face in person. They gazed 577 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: toward the forward facing person earlier and for longer, and 578 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: showed more gaze alterations and a lower latency until the 579 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 1: first gaze alteration when the person was forward facing. Our 580 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: results provide strong evidence for audience dependent, human directed visual 581 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: orienting behavior in a species that was domesticated primarily for production. 582 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: And they also say the results quote show similarities with 583 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: the referential and intentional communicative behavior exhibited by domestic companion 584 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: animals such as dogs and horses. This indicates the domestication 585 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: has a much broader impact on hetero specific communication than 586 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: previously believed. So the study is finding that even though 587 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: goats were domesticated for production for agriculture, meat, milk, hide, 588 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: and fur things like that, as opposed to dogs, which 589 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: were domesticated as companions and helpers. Nevertheless, goats do this 590 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: dog like thing when they have this unsolvable problem task. 591 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: They are more likely to look up, for presumably for help, 592 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: at a human who is looking at them, as opposed 593 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: to the control of a human that is looking away 594 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: from them. So this is that this is kind of 595 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: the impact of the goatherd over over the goat. Now, 596 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what all this adds up to about, 597 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: you know, how this would affect humans over the years 598 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: looking at the goats they're familiar with, and whether they 599 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: would imagine that this goat is having crafty, devilish designs 600 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: on them or is thinking impure thoughts. But but I 601 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: did find it interesting. Yeah, like maybe there is a 602 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: long underlying realization that the goat thinks and behaves differently 603 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: when we're looking at it as opposed to when we're 604 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: not looking at it, which reminds me of that ridiculous 605 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: idea that we folk with Tale that we've brought up 606 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: in the last episode about how you can't keep tracking 607 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: the goats not even there all the time. Sometimes it's there, 608 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: but the rest of the time it's going to hell 609 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: so that Satan can clean its beard for it. You 610 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: know what you call that, It's a fission fusion society. Yeah, yeah, 611 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, what's your day look like, Carl. Well, 612 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna eat a bunch of a bunch of grass, 613 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna climb some rocks and then oh, I've got 614 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: I've got I've got a one PM with Satan. Gotta 615 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: get this be taken care of, thank thank now. As 616 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: previously mentioned, goats, of course, are really good at figuring 617 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: out how to make use of new environments. And as 618 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: a result, as a result of that reality and a 619 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: result of human domestication of the animals, goats are a 620 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: common sight all over the world. They're one of our 621 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: oldest domesticated animals. As we discussed in the first episode, 622 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: They've traveled a long and far with us. And yeah, 623 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: the goat is especially good at sustaining itself even in 624 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: places where nothing like the goat has ever lived. And 625 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: I want to go to a particular place, and and 626 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: part of this is because I I just physically returned 627 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: from this place, and so it's it's on my mind 628 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: a lot, but I want to go to the Galapagos Archipelago. 629 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: This is a cluster of volcanic islands located five d 630 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: sixty three miles or n kilometers off the coast of Ecuador. 631 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: It's a place famous for its biodiversity and for the 632 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: examples of evolution found there uh as in various species 633 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: many found nowhere else in the world that have evolved 634 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: to thrive in isolated environments. And while there is some 635 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: dispute over whether the Inca ever reached the island, we 636 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: can be certain that Europeans uh discovered the islands in 637 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: fifteen thirty five, and outside of Charles Darwin's visit to 638 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: the island three hundred years later, the history of human 639 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: contact with the island is has frequently been a bloody one, 640 00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: in tailing at times penal colonies, utopian communities, whalers and pirates. 641 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: Sailors infamously made off with many of the smaller female 642 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: galapacost tortoises, which they used to restock their food supplies 643 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: at these islands, and later these sailors that were visiting 644 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: the Galapacos Islands would see the islands with food species 645 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: like goats and pigs, so drop off some goats and pigs, 646 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: knowing that these are hardy creatures that will find out 647 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: how to survive, that will breed. And then when you 648 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: drop back by, we just send some some of some 649 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: sailors ashore and say, hey, go get me some goat meat. 650 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: Go get me some pig meat. Can you bring back 651 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: thirty to fifty feral hogs? Uh? And And given how 652 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: good these creatures were at at thriving in new environments, 653 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: and given that these islands had never seen goats or 654 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: pigs before, yeah, they did quite well. And as you 655 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: can imagine, this sort of willful introduction of invasive species 656 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 1: had a huge negative packed on the environment. In addition 657 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: to feral goats and pigs, also feral cats feral cattle 658 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: have along been an issue along with of course rats uh. 659 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: Cats are of course terrific killers of birds. Pigs will 660 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: consume hidden eggs including a glob of coast tortoise eggs, 661 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: I guana eggs, etcetera. Uh, and our problems and other 662 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: parts of the world as well. But you might well 663 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: wonder why feral donkeys and especially feral goats would be 664 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: an issue, Like what ultimately is so destructive about the goat. Well, 665 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: think back to the browsing dietary habits of the goat 666 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: that we discussed in the first episode. Again, the goat 667 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: excels at consuming vegetation and ultimately actually outperforms the giant 668 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 1: galapagost tortoise, munching down parts of the plant they would 669 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: ultimately be inaccessible to the tortoise, and in doing so 670 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: they also end up loosening the underlying soil. They also, 671 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: along with donkeys and cattle, can trample eggs uh you know, 672 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: for the for the eggs as well as just young tortoises, 673 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: feral pigs, dogs, cats, and black rats can serve as 674 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: deadly predators and so for these reasons along with with 675 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: human hunting, we saw the extinction of the Floridana Island 676 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: subspecies of the Glava Coast tourtise during the mid nineteenth century, 677 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: and of course all of the glab of coost tortoises 678 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: have have kind of had an uphill battle uh to 679 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: to regain successful numbers. Another important thing to keep in 680 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: mind here and this this reminds me of our discussions 681 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: of the moa uh, the giant flightless bird in the past. 682 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: We have to remember that Okay, glab of Coast tortoises 683 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: are notoriously slow, but they do move around quite a bit, 684 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: and aided by a slow digestion, they're able to spread 685 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,919 Speaker 1: seeds across the vast distances. So the glap of cost 686 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: tortoise isn't just this amazing curiosity to be found on 687 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: the Glap Coast islands. They're a crucial part of island ecology. 688 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: They've evolved to thrive within these isolated ecosystems, and those 689 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: ecosystems have evolved to depend upon them and to uh 690 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: and to live alongside them. Uh. There are other examples 691 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: of this as well, like one in particular, you see 692 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: these very tall to cactus varieties that have evolved to 693 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: to climb high enough to where they're above the tortoises reach. 694 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: And then you'll see, you know, all the fruiting parts 695 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: of the cactus up there, and they'll beat it more 696 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: like this hard bark on the lower portions of it, 697 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: very tall cacti. So anyway, we end up with this 698 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: situation where on we have we have we have islands 699 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: here that have lots of goats, and the goats are destructive. 700 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: The goats are in competition with the animals that we 701 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: want to help, that we want to see survive and 702 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: have no other place in the world where they can survive, 703 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: where they can call home. And so this lad to 704 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: goat removal efforts, a war on goats. And there had 705 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: been prior goat removal efforts on in other islands, but 706 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: this was the but this was the largest at this 707 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: point in history. We're getting into the nineteen nineties here. 708 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: So according to the Galapa Coos Conservancy quote, prior to 709 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 1: nineteen seven, the largest island with a successful goat eradication 710 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: was Auckland Island in New Zealand, where only one five 711 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: goats occupied a near four thousand hectares. The next two 712 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 1: of the largest islands with successful go to eradications were 713 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: Lanai in Hawaii and San Clemente Island in California. And 714 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: uh this in in San Clemente Island they have removed 715 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: apparently twenty nine thousand goats. So yeah. By the late 716 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: twentieth century, some real mover movements were being made to 717 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: eradicate feral populations from the Galapagos Islands. This included the 718 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: N seven Project Isabella Plan, which aimed to eradicate goats 719 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: and donkeys from northern Isabella Island, also pigs, goats and 720 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: donkeys from Santiago Island and goats from Penta Island, And 721 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: with international funding, they waged a war against the goats 722 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: and their feral kin and the results are pretty staggering. 723 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: By two thousand and four, eighteen thousand pigs were removed 724 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: from Santiago Island. The same year, roughly fifty five thousand 725 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: goats were eliminated on Isabella. And it's it's interesting when 726 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: you start, when you start getting into this sort of problem, 727 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: when you have thousands, tens of thousands of of goats, 728 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: how do you get rid of them? How do you 729 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: round them all up? You? Uh? I'm to understand that 730 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: some of this was done via aerial hunting and some 731 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: of the pig removal. I think it still goes on today. 732 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm to understand with with with hunting efforts, but with 733 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: the goats. They use judas goats to help carry this out, 734 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: some seven hundred and seventy of them. Now what is 735 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: a judas goat, you might ask, Well, these are trained 736 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: goats and in these efforts they are also sterilized goats. 737 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: Because you don't you're not going to solve your goat 738 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: problem by releasing seven hundred seven and debreedable goats into 739 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,279 Speaker 1: the population. But these are trained goats that in they 740 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: were traditionally used in uh in previous times to lead 741 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: sheep to slaughter, but they can also be used to 742 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: lead feral goats to their destruction. So in the case 743 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: of the galapagost efforts, sterilized goats were used, and uh, yeah, yeah, 744 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 1: they were used to help round up many of these 745 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: goats so that they could be um eliminated. But I 746 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: think this whole scenario is it's it's kind of a 747 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: testament to so many of the properties of the goat 748 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: that we've discussed, their tenacity, their uh, their great ability 749 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: to thrive in an environment, and in this case, they're 750 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: too good at it. Again, they just out outperform everything 751 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: that's already there. Then you have to get rid of them. 752 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: And how do you how do you wrangle them up? Uh, Well, 753 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,919 Speaker 1: you've got to use goat against goat. You've you've got 754 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: to you've got to enlist trader goats or judas goats 755 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: to go out there and help you lead them in 756 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: to the kill. I had heard the phrase judas goat 757 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: before but I don't think I ever knew what that meant. 758 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a goat that it takes advantage 759 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: of the the social hurting behaviors of goats by being 760 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: trained by humans to lead goats where you want them 761 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: to go, often too, a place that's not in the 762 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: interest of the goats themselves, right right, so that they 763 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: can be rounded up and in this case eliminated and uh. 764 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: And I believe that they still keep Judas goats around 765 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: on some of these islands for for monitoring purposes. I wonder, 766 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: how do you train a goat that other goats really 767 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,479 Speaker 1: want to follow? Like what is the most followable type 768 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: of goat? Yeah, I don't know. I didn't go in 769 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: deep into like the making of a Judas goat, Like 770 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: how does it come together? I think it since you're 771 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: you're training an animal to betray it's its own species 772 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: one instantly, you can't help an anthropomorphize the scenario when 773 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: you start thinking of various episodes of the outer Limits 774 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: and imagining like aliens brainwashing human captives so that they'll 775 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: betray their uh, the human species or something. But I 776 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: don't think it's quite that complicated. But thank goodness, we 777 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: can do it. I mean, you think of other problems 778 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: species like the like the rat. To my knowledge, there's 779 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: no such thing as a Judas rat. The rats are 780 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: too clever for that. I suppose You've We've got to 781 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: resort to, in some cases more basic methods, but also 782 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: methods that are perhaps just incapable of of solving a 783 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: large scale rat problem. Al Right, Well, as we reached 784 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: the end of these three episodes, how do we how 785 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: has this change the way we feel about goats? It 786 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: changes nothing for me my allegiances to the goat and 787 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: to the goat alone as it has always been. Well, obviously, 788 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everyone out there about all 789 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: of this. H Yeah, did did Did these episodes change 790 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: the way you think about goats? Yet? Perhaps? Perhaps not? Uh? 791 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,359 Speaker 1: And of course we I feel like we we do 792 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: have listeners who raise goats, or have raised goats, who 793 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: have been around goats. Um. I'm almost certain of it, 794 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: if I'm thinking I'm remembering correctly. So if you out there, 795 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,879 Speaker 1: if you are a goatherd, we would love to hear 796 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: from you. Let us know what your thoughts are about 797 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: the way of the goat. Um. So if you've ever 798 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,760 Speaker 1: worked at a petting zoo, if you have any experience 799 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 1: with with goats, uh that that lines up with anything 800 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: we've discussed here right in, and we'll discuss them on 801 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: future episodes of Listener Mail. It's also not impossible there'll 802 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: be another episode concerning goats in the not too distant future, 803 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: because we were just wrapping up our our work on 804 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: this and I got a press release from somebody who 805 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: had like a new study regarding the behavior of goats 806 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: and rams, and I was like, yeah, I'm like, oh man, 807 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: maybe I'll have to Maybe we'll have to have them 808 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: on the show and chat with them. So this may 809 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: not be the end of the goats in the long run, 810 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: but it is the end of this three part series, Okay. 811 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 1: Do As a reminder, you can find all the episodes 812 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind and the Stuff to 813 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. We are primarily a science 814 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, with Listener 815 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,359 Speaker 1: Mail episodes on Mondays. On Wednesday's we do a short 816 00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: form monster fact or artifact episode, and on Friday's we 817 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: do a little something called Weird House Cinema. That's our 818 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,399 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 819 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: about a strange film. Huge thanks as always to our 820 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 821 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,839 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 822 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 823 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at 824 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. Stuff 825 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,800 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Minds, production of I Heart Radio. 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