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Speaker 1: On the night of March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Felix

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Speaker 1: Costo Rico was walking down an alley in San Francisco's

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Speaker 1: Mission District. Witnesses saw a man get out of a

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Speaker 1: white money Carlo and confront Felix, and the two started arguing. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: a shot rang out and.

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Speaker 2: Felix fell to the ground dead.

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Speaker 1: The shooter jumped back into the car and sped away

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Speaker 1: with another man at the wheel. By the next morning,

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Speaker 1: rumors were flying around the streets that the shooter was

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Speaker 1: a lifelong friend of Felix's, Joaquin Syria. They had grown

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Speaker 1: up together in Cuba. Word was that the two were

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Speaker 1: in a dispute over money. Joaquin had been out earlier

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Speaker 1: that evening with a friend who drove a white money Carlo,

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Speaker 1: but he claimed to be home with his wife and

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Speaker 1: baby son for the night by the time the crime

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Speaker 1: was committed. After viewing several lineups that included Joaquin's picture,

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Speaker 1: two eyewitnesses id'd him as the man they seen. One

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Speaker 1: witness claimed that she was eighty percent certain and that

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Speaker 1: was close enough for the jury. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Mariline Woods, co creator

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Speaker 1: and co host of the Ear Hustle podcast, guest hosting

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Speaker 1: for Jason Flummerday, and I gotta tell you I served

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Speaker 1: over twenty seven years in prison, and I used to

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Speaker 1: always think about the people who were in here that

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Speaker 1: were actually innocent, you know, dealing with the day to

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Speaker 1: day grinding rigor of prison life. And that brings us

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Speaker 1: to our guest today, Joaquin Sarah, Joaquin, welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, cool cool. And here to help

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Speaker 1: tell Joaquin's story is Paige Knap. She's the supervising attorney

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Speaker 1: at the Northern California Innocent Project. Paige, thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am super excited to meet you, Arline, and

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Speaker 3: super happy to be with you Morningquin.

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Speaker 1: Joaquin, can you tell me, like, since you're from Cuba,

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Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up.

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Speaker 2: Growing now in Quwa. It was beautiful?

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Speaker 4: It was beautiful, you know for me to be a

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Speaker 4: child growing now in my country. You know, so rein

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Speaker 4: them my family frame and kill what you do a

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Speaker 4: lot of teams you know that you're not able to

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Speaker 4: do in this country. You know, I remember you know

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Speaker 4: that in kill what we to play? You know, in

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Speaker 4: the three to one o'cloud two okline the morning, and

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Speaker 4: it was no danger. Everybody know everybody, you know, because

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Speaker 4: it's an island. I had a royal beautiful Shaoho.

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Speaker 1: Got you, got you, got you. So when you were

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Speaker 1: a youngster, the US and Cuba was beefing. You know,

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Speaker 1: they have a pretty fraud history. The Missile Crisis, the

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Speaker 1: Commonist Revolt, and bargoes. Not really a free flowing dialogue.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what were your impressions of

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Speaker 1: the United States back?

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Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you this, man, everybody

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Speaker 2: c the majority.

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Speaker 4: We grow out believing everything that we're watching the TV

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Speaker 4: about the United States. We really believe that Superman really exists.

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Speaker 4: Anything that you go out from United we really believe that. Brother,

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Speaker 4: you know, you know in we watch so brainwatched, you

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Speaker 4: know that when we're watching movie A Superman won the Woman.

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Speaker 2: We really believe that these type of people exist in

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Speaker 2: the United States.

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Speaker 1: You know, unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: So this see how I grow out.

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Speaker 1: And and and and Joaquin, you knew the victim in

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Speaker 1: this case, Phyllis bastar Rica. When you were a kid

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Speaker 1: back in Cuba.

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Speaker 4: You know a Phyllis we all call hi calitles. He

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Speaker 4: was close to my neighborhood, so mini mini minie time.

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Speaker 4: We who to skate from the school to go swimming

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Speaker 4: in the ocean, you know, go go ib some mango

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Speaker 4: sugar cane. Everybody liked to be around Phillis. You know,

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Speaker 4: if you go into a party, you want him to

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Speaker 4: be there. He was only laughing all the time, making

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Speaker 4: a lot of joke. Definitely, he was a good friend, right.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just curious. Did you come from like a

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Speaker 1: political family over in Cuba.

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Speaker 4: My father he was a revolutionary, you know, he was

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Speaker 4: a Commonist. He fight with the Gostro you see, with

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Speaker 4: the cast got the power way. My father was a

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Speaker 4: part of that. Yeah, the majority of my family they

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Speaker 4: really believed, you know, in the Commonies. And it was

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Speaker 4: probably in the house, you know, because we all got

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Speaker 4: different views. Since my ely age, I got really really

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Speaker 4: big trouble to fit in the Commonist party. I got

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Speaker 4: trouble with that. So you know, at the age of eighteen,

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Speaker 4: I was called to be in the army. I was

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Speaker 4: in high school at that time, but they don't care.

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Speaker 4: That was a man that told it called. You know,

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Speaker 4: a lot of young people escape because we don't want

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Speaker 4: to do that, you know, to go fight to some

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Speaker 4: other country, like a lot of joints in Cuba, they

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Speaker 4: were saying to Angola to fight a lot of all

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Speaker 4: these young people got killed, you know.

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Speaker 2: So me and might say, oh, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 4: So when I was called to be in the army,

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Speaker 4: I remember that I was there maybe for about sismon

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Speaker 4: and I escape. A lot of Johns say do that.

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Speaker 4: After I escape, I go to my family house and

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Speaker 4: I spend some time with my family. Into my father

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Speaker 4: come and told me, and he said, you know what,

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Speaker 4: walking I don't want no trouble with the government.

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Speaker 2: You have to give it, you say, do the right thing,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 4: And and I respect my family, you know, I love

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Speaker 4: my father so more.

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Speaker 2: This is how I aim.

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Speaker 4: Then, you know, in prison, you know in Cuba, it's

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Speaker 4: not like right here, you know, right here out waiting

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Speaker 4: something hoppy to your wyoka crying right in two or

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Speaker 4: three days they take.

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Speaker 1: You to court your due process.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in gil White Diffity in Cilbai, they directed you,

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Speaker 4: Yeah you can be I THEO for one through three four. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I do never go to court. Yeah, they see how

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Speaker 4: it is in Kuwa Damn.

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Speaker 1: So in May of nineteen eighty, after spending some time

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Speaker 1: in prison, you fled Cuba as a part of the

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Speaker 1: Mario Boat left, which from my understanding was a mass

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Speaker 1: migration of around one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans

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Speaker 1: that was sanctioned by both Jimmy Carter and Fidale Castro.

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Speaker 1: You were still a teenager at that time, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I want to ask you what do you remember

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Speaker 1: about the boat ride from Cuba to Florida because I

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Speaker 1: used to always see it on the news, you know,

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Speaker 1: individuals on floats and stuff like that coming from Cuba.

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Speaker 1: What what do you remember about that boat ride?

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Speaker 4: Well, Frosseto, to be honest with you, bro, I see

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Speaker 4: a lot of ball when I was in the ocean,

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Speaker 4: you know, and we're talking about a ball that you

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Speaker 4: might can pull twenty or thirty people in that ball.

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Speaker 4: So what the Cuba government was doing need instead or

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Speaker 4: pull twenty or toty people?

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Speaker 2: They who to put too home? Three people in the bowl.

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Speaker 4: So imagining and let me tell you, Mane, I see

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Speaker 4: with my own eyes how a lot of boat this appeal, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, in the ocean.

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Speaker 4: One minute that was next to US, and when I look,

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Speaker 4: it's not a te anomal, it is like it's gone.

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Speaker 4: So it was really, really really it was really ugly,

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Speaker 4: you know, right.

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Speaker 1: So fortunately for you you got here safely and you

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Speaker 1: landed in Key West, Florida. Can you tell me what

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Speaker 1: your feelings were when you first read the United States?

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Speaker 4: At that moment, I feel, you know, I watched Hoppy, Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 4: I wa Hoppy completely.

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Speaker 2: You know that I fleck. I watched Hoppy. You know that.

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Speaker 4: I mean you not a state that I don't have

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Speaker 4: to live it a field no more, I don't have

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Speaker 4: to water.

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Speaker 2: You know about that? I going and they killed bid

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Speaker 2: they govin main't on Sonky like that. I know. I

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Speaker 2: wasched in the most power with fo komtri in the war.

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Speaker 4: So at that moment, anything that they told me will

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Speaker 4: believe it.

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Speaker 1: So over the next few years, you kind of skipped

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Speaker 1: around to a few different cities and you finally ended

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Speaker 1: up in San Francisco living with a woman named Nellie Hernandez.

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Speaker 1: Nelly was a little older than you, and she had

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Speaker 1: six kids. And back then you were hanging out with

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Speaker 1: a couple of your partners from Cuba. Your childhood friend

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Speaker 1: Felix Costa Rica who had also made it to the US.

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Speaker 1: And a guy named Robert Socorro. And there was another

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Speaker 1: cat from Cuba that was a hustling name in Candido

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Speaker 1: ds What did you know about him?

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Speaker 2: You know, Candido Dias, What I know about him? You

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Speaker 2: know that he's a cute one.

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Speaker 4: You know, he was living in San Francisco in the

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Speaker 4: Star Hotel, you know, in nineteen ninety. And I never think,

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Speaker 4: you know, he had any typeo or bad feeling about me,

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Speaker 4: a fat that I know. You know, we're talking sometimes

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Speaker 4: and you know when you got the feeling that you

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Speaker 4: don't click with the person, you know, that's the way

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Speaker 4: I feel, that's the way he feel. But we never

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Speaker 4: let it, you know, pass to the level or having

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Speaker 4: any type of problem with him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And when you was in San Francisco and me

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Speaker 1: asked us, what was the San Francisco Police Department?

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Speaker 4: Like? So in nineteen ninety in San Francisco Police Department,

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Speaker 4: it was really really really I could root department. I

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Speaker 4: already you know, listening in the three what they were doing,

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Speaker 4: how they brand drag on people car you know, and

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Speaker 4: and all that type of stuff. You know, of course,

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Speaker 4: not everybody not every police is doing you know, some

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Speaker 4: really Torigan, they really got some a lot of bad apple,

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Speaker 4: you know in the San Francis Complete department, h.

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Speaker 2: My twenty four, nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 4: You know, my personal life at that time it was changing,

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Speaker 4: you know for the betro You know, I my baby's mama.

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Speaker 4: You know, Johanna pays about almost about a jayago before

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Speaker 4: my son was born. I was a happy man, you

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Speaker 4: know at that time. I'm oh, my friend, Oh, my friend.

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Speaker 4: What's happy with me too?

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Speaker 2: You know? Roveto socorro he.

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Speaker 4: Was happy if Philidy Jhuto coming to my house. It

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Speaker 4: was a happy time for me, right, you know at that.

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Speaker 1: Time until, of course, your good friend Felix Basto Rico

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Speaker 1: was killed, which happened on the night of March twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. So Paige, can you can you walk us

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Speaker 1: through what transpired that night?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that Felix Pasta Rica

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Speaker 3: was walking down the street with a plastic bag. We've

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Speaker 3: since learned from Roberto SoCoRo that Roberto was in hiding.

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Speaker 3: He had just killed someone and had asked Felix to

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Speaker 3: bring him some clothes and toilet trees and stuff. So

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Speaker 3: he's walking over to the bay Bridge Motel where Roberto is,

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Speaker 3: And in Clara Alley, which is sort of perpendicular to

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Speaker 3: the Baybridge Motel, there are people. There's a guy in

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Speaker 3: a car, Kenneth Duff, and there's a woman up in

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Speaker 3: the window, Kathleen Guovara, and they both hear this loud altercation,

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Speaker 3: this loud argument in the alleyway, and describe these two

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Speaker 3: people kind of walking back and forth interacting with each other.

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Speaker 3: There's a white Monte Carlo that the guy with the

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Speaker 3: gun gets out of and he shoots Felix Pastrica in

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Speaker 3: the street and jumps back in the white Monte Carlo

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Speaker 3: and drives off right.

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Speaker 1: And that even in Joaquin, you were spending time with

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Speaker 1: another friend, eighteen year old George Varilla, who was actually

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Speaker 1: the son of your former girlfriend Nellie Hernandez.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And Joe Barrela, we who to be real close where

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Speaker 4: he wasched, you know around a nine. Yeah, oh, we

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Speaker 4: who to go to the video a keda all the

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Speaker 4: time we watched Aditta to play video. I'm to be honesty,

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Speaker 4: I feel, you know, even when I watch young I

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Speaker 4: feel like he was my son. Right he God to

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Speaker 4: come to my house almost every two three days.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so can you tell us like what you and

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Speaker 1: you know George got into on the evening of March

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Speaker 1: twenty fourth, before y'all have parted ways.

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Speaker 4: I remembered that nine that wasn't home with my family.

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Speaker 4: You know, I expaid that, you know, to stay home.

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Speaker 4: I was in May and I received a phone call

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Speaker 4: from your So when I got the phone your he

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Speaker 4: started told me and he said, hey, man, what you doing?

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Speaker 2: I said, man, I'm right here. You know, I spent

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Speaker 2: some time with Johanna and with my son. Man. I

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Speaker 2: bol why we don't go to play video?

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Speaker 4: So he conveys me and I go out the way

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Speaker 4: here and he come out to peep me out.

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Speaker 2: It is white Monte Carlo.

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Speaker 1: Oh, George Forriala drove a white money Carlo.

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Speaker 4: He got a white Monte Carlo. He peeped me out.

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Speaker 4: Almost around seven o'clock, we go to that CAA to

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Speaker 4: play video. I remember that we got there almost around

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Speaker 4: seven saving Tody.

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Speaker 2: We what play video? Buado the Blue.

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Speaker 4: He come out and told me and said, hey, what

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Speaker 4: can't I have to go back to my house because

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Speaker 4: my girlfriend she come out from Richmond.

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Speaker 2: So to make this toy show.

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Speaker 1: We leave, and when you left, you didn't go straight home.

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Speaker 1: You enjoyed stopped by Gallon's Bar first, where a lot

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Speaker 1: of Cubans and Puerto Ricans ain't got at to see

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Speaker 1: if you might meet up with a friend of yours there,

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Speaker 1: But instead you ran into another guy, Roberto Hernandez, who

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Speaker 1: was not exactly a friend.

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Speaker 4: We don't get along, you know me and he got

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Speaker 4: a fire side. After I see my friend Manolo, I

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Speaker 4: talking with Manolo for a little while.

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Speaker 2: I got to defight Joe Barrella. Take me home.

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Speaker 4: I got to my house around a twenty five h

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Speaker 4: eight toty Navid, I leave.

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Speaker 1: My how a game and did you know what you

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Speaker 1: was wearing at night?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's something that I never go and forget that, Navid,

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Speaker 4: because at that time, I don't know if you remain

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Speaker 4: me that a lot of young people Epecio, black people

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Speaker 4: like me, we who to with that type post Jackie

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Speaker 4: letter JACKI you know that it was all colorful letter.

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Speaker 4: Jaki Song said, command the squad, so Wan said, how

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Speaker 4: roly so say Cobra got I don't think that I

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Speaker 4: think that I even can sleep with that Jackey.

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Speaker 2: D. C. How to much I know, Michael Mama squad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they see how I get out out of

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Speaker 4: my house when yo body piped me out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, cool. So George dropped you off at around a

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Speaker 1: thirty and you spent the rest of the evening at

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Speaker 1: home with Johanna and your son. But by the next

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Speaker 1: day there was already a rumor going around that it

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Speaker 1: was you that killed Costa Rica, as you found out

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Speaker 1: from your friend Manolo when you went to Gallon's bar

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Speaker 1: the next day.

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Speaker 2: Manolo and some other people watch outside the bottom.

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Speaker 4: When Manolo see me, Manolo approaching me, you know how

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Speaker 4: he said, hey, Waki, how you doing?

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Speaker 2: My friend you know ween Brace and he said, man

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Speaker 2: why you don't leave the CD? And I look at here.

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Speaker 2: I say, leady, CD, what are you talking about? Manolo?

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Speaker 2: He said, Maine Alito, last night? You know I'm the

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Speaker 2: rue noise that you beat it. And I say, hey,

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Speaker 2: A stop playing like tom mate, do you show? What

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Speaker 2: are you talking about? He said yeah.

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Speaker 4: So when he told me now the Frost team that

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Speaker 4: is coming, you know, in my mind, I just say, oh, man,

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Speaker 4: something Roman, and I just started to be afraid.

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Speaker 1: And it came out later that Condido DZ was the

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00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 1: likely instigator of that rumor, but however it got started.

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Speaker 1: The two homicide detectives work in the case, Arc Gearns

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Speaker 1: and James Crowley ran with that.

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Speaker 3: Rumor, so Joaquin's name comes up really fast in the investigation,

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Speaker 3: and from as soon as they get his name, he

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Speaker 3: is the only person they ever look into. And so

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Speaker 3: essentially what you can see in the police reports is

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Speaker 3: the two homicide inspectors who have Joaquin as their one

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Speaker 3: and only suspect, start showing his picture to the two eyewitnesses,

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Speaker 3: neither of whom identify him. They ask her, well, who

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Speaker 3: looks most like the shooter, and she says, well, she

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00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,639
Speaker 3: points to Joaquin's photo and says he looks most like

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Speaker 3: the shooter, but she doesn't say it's him, and the

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Speaker 3: guy in the car says he doesn't pick anybody out,

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Speaker 3: but they still keep their focus entirely on Joaquin.

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Speaker 1: But Joaquin didn't even match the descriptions that the two

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Speaker 1: witnesses gave, right, No.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the police did get descriptions from the eyewitnesses

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Speaker 3: of the shooter and the things they describe because they

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Speaker 3: both sort of say they see him from a distance,

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Speaker 3: kind of the silhouette. They say he's got an afro,

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Speaker 3: and that he's wearing this long trench coat. And we

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Speaker 3: know from independent witnesses, including the guy Joaquin got in

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Speaker 3: a fight with, who you know, didn't like him and

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Speaker 3: had no reason to lie for him, that Joaquin's hair

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Speaker 3: is in a long Jerry curl, not in an afro,

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Speaker 3: and he's wearing this short, short leather jacket and not

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Speaker 3: a long trench coat. And in fact, no one had

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Speaker 3: ever seen Joaquin ever in a trench coat, and he

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Speaker 3: didn't even own a trench coat.

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Speaker 4: You know, thank God that I just stop at the

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Speaker 4: Gottam Bottle because you'll see everybody see me how I

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Speaker 4: want the race. Everybody, the people they said, they DeFi.

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Speaker 4: They've remained me how I watched the race. They've remained

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Speaker 4: me that I got a Jedi krail.

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Speaker 3: I mean, even when they search the house, they're never

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Speaker 3: able to find anything to connect Joaquin, and and so

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Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't match. He doesn't match the descriptions,

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Speaker 3: and he's got an alibi. His his girlfriend and their

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00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 3: roommate tell the police from the very beginning that he's

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Speaker 3: home that night by eight thirty.

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Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Garan's and Crowley stay focused on Joaquin as a suspect.

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Speaker 1: And so at that point, Joaquin, you went to the

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Speaker 1: police station on your own, correct.

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Speaker 4: I cannot take a no moment. I cannot take a

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Speaker 4: no more. You watch some more rumo that I said, Man,

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Speaker 4: I have to go talk to with the homo side.

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Speaker 4: I have to go talk to with the homo side. Bolutality.

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Speaker 4: I go with my Loyo to speak to the homo side.

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Speaker 3: About two and a half weeks after the shooting, and

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Speaker 3: he tells them that he was with George Ferrella in

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Speaker 3: the white Monte Carlo, and he tells them how to

349
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Speaker 3: find George says, I, you know, I dated it his mother,

350
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Speaker 3: Nellie Hernandez. They live at this address. Here's what he

351
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 3: looks like. Here's the car he drives. I mean, basically

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00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 3: everything they need and they pull in George Verilla and

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Speaker 3: George is initially saying, well, I can tell you what

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Speaker 3: happened up until the time Joaquin and I split up,

355
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Speaker 3: and then he says he went home after and he says, well,

356
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Speaker 3: I probably I probably went somewhere after though, and they

357
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: never ask him where did you go? Instead, what they

358
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 3: say is we know Joaquin was the shooter. You're going

359
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 3: to go down for this murder. He's you know, George

360
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 3: is eighteen. They tell him, you're going to go down

361
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 3: for this murder unless you stop lying and covering up

362
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Speaker 3: for Joaquin, and they essentially tell him like, he's just

363
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Speaker 3: got to say that Joaquin is the guy in the

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Speaker 3: car with him at the time of the shooting, and

365
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is the shooter. And George Verilla literally says, Okay,

366
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Speaker 3: whatever you said, and then he repeats the story that

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Speaker 3: they have now fed to him, and that's it.

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Speaker 1: So I guess subsequently later you end up getting arrested. Joaquin, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and you end up getting arrested based on a confession from.

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Speaker 3: George, or at least from George saying exactly what the

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Speaker 3: police told them to say.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so he was he fabricated her from the offices

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Speaker 1: Garin's and Crowley.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they tell him he's got to say

375
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 3: it's Joaquin. That's like then they keep going back to

376
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses. Basically, the witnesses make positive IDAs only after

377
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 3: they're repeatedly shown Joaquin, and for one of them, she

378
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 3: doesn't even make a first positive IDA until the preliminary

379
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Speaker 3: hearing when he's literally sitting in a red jumpsuit at

380
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Speaker 3: the defense table, and then she's like, oh, I'm sure

381
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 3: that's the guy, and she says it's based on his

382
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 3: attitude that she can see is how she's identifying. I mean,

383
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 3: there's a lot of racism all through this trial, Like

384
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Speaker 3: she even says, I think they were speaking African.

385
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Speaker 1: So on April nineteen, nineteen ninety, Joaquin, you were arrested

386
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: in charged with first degree murder. Bro what was going

387
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 1: through your head? I mean, did you even think this

388
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: shit was real?

389
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Speaker 2: Do you know what?

390
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Speaker 4: Let me tell you, these whoop not even going like

391
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 4: washing my you, I really believe that everything worth real.

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00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 4: I was thinking that I was in a can't the

393
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 4: camera show looking all these people coming and pointed me

394
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 4: with a finger, Yeah, that the main And in my

395
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 4: mind I said, main, I know, I know the camera

396
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 4: is going come out and they go and say a

397
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 4: smile you in camera, you know, because that was a

398
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 4: famite show at the time. I go to watch that

399
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 4: show tomorrow, you know, and I and I say, you

400
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 4: know what, I mean, what happened to me? I cannot

401
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 4: believe it? You you cannot being innocing believe that what

402
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 4: is happening to you is real. You you cannot you know,

403
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 4: and that's what happened to me. And you know, to

404
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: respond to your question, no, you know, I steel, don't

405
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 4: get it, I steal. You don't even get it. Main

406
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 4: you're being charged with flost the good morning.

407
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: I just deal them getting So.

408
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 3: George had actually kind of disappeared, George Urella, he'd not

409
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 3: shown up for the prelim, he was missing leading up

410
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 3: to the trial. I honestly believe Jaquin's attorney just didn't

411
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: think he was even going to have to deal with George.

412
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: It was just going to be this eyewitness I D case.

413
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: And so he did, I think, a fairly good job,

414
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: you know, showing all these discrepancies between the descriptions and

415
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 3: what Joaquin actually looked like, their own inconsistent statements and

416
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of their IDs. He did a

417
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: nice job of showing that George Verrella's timeline didn't make

418
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 3: any sense, that there was this like big gap in

419
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 3: between the way he says what they did that night

420
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: and how he drove Joaquin home. His timelines that lines

421
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 3: up with joaquines that Joaquin is home long before the

422
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 3: murder happens, but what he missed, what he didn't manage

423
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 3: to do. And one of the things I really respect

424
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 3: about him is that he actually gave us a declaration

425
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 3: saying he was ineffective because he didn't present to the jury.

426
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 3: The jury never heard that Joaquin's name came from the

427
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 3: homicide inspectors first, and that they told Verrella essentially that

428
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 3: he had to identify Joaquin, So the jury just never

429
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 3: heard that. What they heard instead was this guy who

430
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 3: knows Joaquin, who'd grown up with him around is saying

431
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: he's the guy who was with me in my car

432
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: and who got out and shot him. And then he

433
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: hears that corroborated by these two independent eyewitnesses, and Joaquin's

434
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 3: attorney presented witnesses who describe what Joaquin looked like that night,

435
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: how he had Jerry Curl in the short jacket, but

436
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 3: he never presented the alibi witnesses. So they also didn't

437
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 3: hear that Joaquin was at home with his one month

438
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: old son and that they had a good reason to

439
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: remember that night because they were going to celebrate the

440
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: one month anniversary of his birth the next day, So

441
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 3: you know, they knew that George Verrella was incentivized. They

442
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: knew he got immunity, they knew he was in and

443
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 3: out of trouble, So it wasn't a super strong case

444
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: even with what they heard. But what they never heard

445
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 3: was anything else about someone else actually did it, or

446
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 3: that Joaquin had this really credible alibi, and so they

447
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 3: end up convicting him.

448
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: It don't matter if I'm trying to explain to you

449
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: a thousand times, I cannot even feeling close to really

450
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 4: really tell you how I feel when they come out

451
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 4: with the guilty verity. You know, everything inside me stopped, everything,

452
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 4: I stop reading, my heart stop.

453
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 2: It is a feeling that you can never You can

454
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: never explain how it is that they find you guilty.

455
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 4: Espece you find me guilty or the moory of my

456
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 4: bed frameming that's all I really killed me? How can

457
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 4: I be doing time for the money of my baby

458
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: friend made somebody that I love.

459
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: Even to today.

460
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: I ended almost opened Pellican Bey prism in what the

461
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: more taught prisum in the California system.

462
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: At the time.

463
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 4: I see people when they told these people you go

464
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 4: into Pelican Bay, I see grown Maine crumbled in the

465
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 4: floor and crying when I was in some queen, you know,

466
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 4: and I ask the people. I say, hey, Main, why

467
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 4: he crying? I said, Man, you don't know where we're going.

468
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: He said, we're going to Pennican be And I said,

469
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 4: what a body? I said, Cuba. Let me tell you man,

470
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 4: it is no joke. He said, may wait til you

471
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 4: get there.

472
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: You know it was true.

473
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: You know when I gotta tell you, Maine, every time

474
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 4: that you heal alarm sound in that prison, it was

475
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: not a first alarm.

476
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: It was somebody got killed, you know. And I said, man,

477
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: how did I ain't in there? Bo?

478
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 4: My mind is still? Do not stopping play some trick

479
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 4: on me? I remember, you know. I who to wag

480
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 4: into my said go to sleep. And I had to

481
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 4: cover my head with the blanket, real tie, and I

482
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 4: had to close my eyes royal tie, and I hold

483
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 4: to say, Main, when I open my eyes now, when

484
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 4: I open my eyes, now, I know this is a three.

485
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: This is a three. I go and being home, we

486
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: might sign with my babies. Mama, this is a three. Man,

487
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: this is a three. I went, I got Cobby might sell.

488
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: I need to sell, you know, I say, wow, man,

489
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: this is real.

490
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: Mmm, So I gotta ask you, man, like, how did

491
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: you hold on to hope so much for all those years?

492
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: Because I always always say, you know, for a person

493
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: that committed crime, it's hard, you know, to deal with

494
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: the time, But for an innocent person sitting there, it's

495
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: a whole different level because you're going through everything, whether

496
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: it's the violence in the prison, the abuse from the cops,

497
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,239
Speaker 1: whatever it is, the CEOs, whatever it is. So how

498
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: did you hold on the hope that you would get out?

499
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 2: You know why in the beginning I watched completely ain't good.

500
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 4: We got everything that I got in my mayis how

501
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 4: did I go and prove that I don't do what

502
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 4: I can do?

503
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: You know?

504
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 4: And the good thing about it is and thank God,

505
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 4: you know, to all the emails, you know, in every

506
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 4: priest that I be, brother, in every priest that I be,

507
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 4: every email, believe on me. They can see through into

508
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 4: my heart. They can see through into the type of

509
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 4: man that I was. You know, this call it homies homeboy.

510
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: They're asking me working and why are you here for?

511
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: Man?

512
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 4: And I say, man, brother, they give me toty one

513
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 4: year to life or a model that I not come make.

514
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 4: I'm taking God. They say, hey, man, you know what

515
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 4: I mean. I believe you walking. I believe you, and

516
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: I say thank you man. And I received so much respect.

517
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: I receive the respect that the systems don't give it

518
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 4: to me. I got an ef all these emails that

519
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 4: deceased deny to me.

520
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: I got in it from all these people.

521
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: And page can you can you walk us through the

522
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation? I mean didn't Evidently nothing worked for him.

523
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you got to give Joaquin credit, like

524
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,239
Speaker 3: he litigated his case to the nines, like he got

525
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 3: himself into federal court. I know he had helped from

526
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 3: jail house lawyers. I have a lot of respect for

527
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: jailhouth lawyers. And I mean, unfortunately the courts just refused

528
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: to look at it and refuse to listen. But what

529
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: eventually happened was Joaquin had earned the respect not only

530
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: of other incarcerated folks, but also some of the free staff.

531
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: And we were contacted by this guy, Ray Leonardini, who

532
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: ran a meditation circle that Joaquin was a part of,

533
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: and also Ellen Egger's pro bono attorney who have partnered

534
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: with in a few cases, was helping another guy with

535
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: parole who told her you have to meet Joaquin, like

536
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: he's actually innocent and you need to help them. And

537
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 3: so Ellen went and met Joaquin. He told her everything.

538
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: She like everybody, found him very compelling and believable, and

539
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: so she The first thing asked her to do was

540
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: go talk to George Verilla's sister, Denise Courcier, and Allan

541
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: did that and Denise told her, my brother told me

542
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is innocent, that it was another Cuban man,

543
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 3: and that the police really wanted Joaquin, and George was

544
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: scared of them, and so he went along with what

545
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: they wanted. But what really turned the case around was

546
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: when Roberto Sacoro got out of prison. He went to

547
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: Cuba and he tracked down Joaquin's family and told them

548
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 3: that he personally knew that Joaquin was innocent because he

549
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: had actually seen the whole thing from his motel room.

550
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: And listeners, remember, Roberto Cicoro was another friend of Joaquin's.

551
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: The day before all of this happened, Roberto had killed

552
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: this other guy named Ruben Alfonso, and he was hiding

553
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: out at the Bay Bridge motel waiting on Felix to

554
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: bring up some clothes when he heard Felix southside argon

555
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: with Candido Diaz.

556
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: They had been fighting over over a gun and not

557
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: paying for the gun, and so he recognized their voices

558
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: and they start coming in and out of his view,

559
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: and you know, he hears the gunshot and he runs

560
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: out and he sees Candido get into the white Monte

561
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 3: Carlo and drive away, and he basically broke down and

562
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: apologized to Joaquin's family and explained that while he was

563
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 3: in he'd been a shot caller initially, and so he

564
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: felt like, you know, in addition to the normal amount

565
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: of trouble you can get in in prison for snitching,

566
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: that he, especially as someone who'd sort of enforced those rules,

567
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: would be even more in danger. And for a long

568
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: time he'd hope to be able to get his own revenge,

569
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: that at some point Candido would get locked up and

570
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: he would be able to avenge Felix's death, and in

571
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: some ways, fortunately that never happened, and instead he gets

572
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: out and tells the truth, and that really broke open

573
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: the case.

574
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: And Ellen also tracks a couple of people that George

575
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: Verilla had talked to and had told them Joaquin was innocent.

576
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: One was Joaquin's sister Denise, and the other was a

577
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: woman named Kadi Dad Gonzales.

578
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: She was friends with Nelli Hernandez, George's mother, and also

579
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: knew Joaquin through Nelly and through the Cuban community. George

580
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: tells her also, so it's very similar to what he

581
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: said to Denise, that he knows Joaquin is innocent and

582
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: didn't do this. And so we had these two statements

583
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 3: from George Verilla to two different people saying that Joaquin

584
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 3: was innocent and also saying that it was another Cuban man.

585
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: And so Candy ro Diez is not only Cuban but

586
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: also matches the original description. He was always had his

587
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: hair in an afro, He was known to wear long

588
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: trench coats. And it turns out he'd had this, you know,

589
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: ongoing and escalating feud with Felix Pasta Rica right before

590
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: the murder, and it all started over the weapon that

591
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: may actually have been used, a forty four, which was

592
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: actually the weapon they said was used to kill Felix

593
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: Basta Rica. So Ellen had done most of the investigation

594
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: by the time she came to me, and it was

595
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: only the Roberto piece that came afterwards. But we really

596
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: felt like that pushed it over the top. And then

597
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: the Innocence Commission also got an eyewitness I D expert

598
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: to look at the eyewitnesses and just really explain and

599
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: under the social science that we now know even more.

600
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: While all of those all the reasons eyewitness identifications are unreliable,

601
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: but we're especially so in this case.

602
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: Well not just unreliable. I believe one of the witnesses,

603
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: Kathleen Gavada, had another reason to identify Joaquin.

604
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 4: You know, the same warm I say from the Beginni

605
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 4: now that I hold the SHOLDI D demain, I only

606
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: atey poucing and Leo, you know, to give you defending

607
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: change and watch you see, well Chi.

608
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: Got so, Paige, after all this new information you put

609
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: in front of them, did the courts quickly agree that

610
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: Joaquin was innocent?

611
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 3: I mean we expected them to, especially because the DA's

612
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: office was on board, and that.

613
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: Was District Bernie chesso Bodin, who was repeatedly under fire

614
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: from the police union and adversaries. There were I think

615
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: like two recall elections, so his political foot and was

616
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: never secure and he was the one that was making

617
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: the recommendation based on the Innocence Commission findings.

618
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: They had this separate Innocence Commission. Right, that was supposed

619
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 3: to be this independent body. It had DA's public defenders, experts,

620
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: law professors, you know, like this whole commission of different

621
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: stakeholders who all agreed Joaquin is fully innocent. And in

622
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: my experience, usually when that happens, the courts are pretty

623
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: willing to go along pretty quickly, right. But unfortunately we

624
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 3: had the exact opposite experience here, and I can only

625
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 3: imagine some of that was the politics going on in

626
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: San Francisco. The court essentially just the first thing they

627
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: did was ask us to do another round of briefing,

628
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: and they invited the Attorney General's office in which you

629
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: know doesn't generally happen in superior court. But here's the

630
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 3: court saying, you know, District Attorney, I don't trust what

631
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: you have to say, and so Attorney General, I'm inviting

632
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: you in to tell me something different. Fortunately, the AG's

633
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 3: office also saw that this wasn't a case to oppose.

634
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: Everything pointed to Joaquin's innocence. There's no reliable evidence of

635
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 3: guilt anywhere. But even after you know, a second round

636
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: of briefing in the AG's office refusing to come in,

637
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: they still had us have an evident you're hearing. And

638
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: so here we are both sides arguing for the same thing.

639
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: So we're both presenting opening statements on Joaquin being innocent,

640
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: and then we're both doing closing arguments about how he's

641
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 3: entitled to relief and how we all believe he's innocent

642
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 3: and the judge should reverse his conviction. Luckily, by then

643
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: we'd been switched to a different judge, was a really good,

644
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: experienced judge and just saw all the problems with the case.

645
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 3: And then finally, on April eighteenth, the court reversed Jakin's

646
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 3: conviction and the district attorneys again announced he was innocent.

647
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: They dismissed all of the charges.

648
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: Man, I almost fail to be fluw.

649
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: YEO to go out to free the freedom that I

650
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 4: want deny for almost thirty two years, and I don't

651
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 4: even know how to make it all the way to

652
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 4: the door, you know, And I keep walking.

653
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,479
Speaker 2: I'm walking on imagin you know where when they open

654
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: the door to me and I see, you know, I see.

655
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: Pay ailing, my son and my baby's mama, I see everybody. Man,

656
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 4: it was too much for me, I say, my god,

657
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 4: it was a day unbelievable. This type of feeling, you

658
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 4: have to really go through that for you can really

659
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 4: have the thing what I'm talking about.

660
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.

661
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And of course we're

662
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: all super grateful to the Northern California Innocent Project and

663
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: the fantastic work that they do because it's through them

664
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: that people like Joaquin can you know, have a chance

665
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: to get back to this free world. So if anyone

666
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: want to show the Northern California Innocent Projects some love,

667
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: we'll have the link in the bios so you can

668
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: do that. So we've got to the point of the

669
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: show where we do this thing called closing arguments. And

670
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: first I want to thank y'all for being here, and

671
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: I also want to ask y'all to share your final

672
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: thoughts for the listeners, you know, anything that you want

673
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: to say, any takeaway you may have, and page I

674
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: want to first start with you and then we can

675
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: close with Joaquin.

676
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: So the thing that I think we haven't done a

677
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 3: great job of yet, especially in San Francisco, is like

678
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: we know, there was this era in which they were

679
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 3: treating especially young black men terribly and saw themselves as

680
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: like cleaning up the streets by somehow getting people involved

681
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: in homicides and throwing them away for life. And there

682
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: are six people who've been exonerated out of San Francisco.

683
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: All of them are black men, and five of them

684
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: are from this nineteen ninety era. They all have incredible story.

685
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 3: You should look into all of them. Joaquin, Maurice Caldwell,

686
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: Antoine Goff, John Tennyson, and Karen mad Conley, who I

687
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: know you've already interviewed. But what we haven't done is

688
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: look back at what else went wrong there. So it

689
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: shouldn't be luck of the draw, right whose cases get

690
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: looked at and who gets picked up? And so Headjoaquin

691
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 3: not you know, convinced other incarcerated folks that he was

692
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 3: innocent and then one of them meeting Ellen like you know,

693
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: this luck of the draw thing. It's not okay for

694
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: justice to be that arbitrary, what little justice exists in

695
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: our system. And so my hope and listeners, I'd love

696
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: for you to encourage this is that we actually look back.

697
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 3: There's four homicide investigators who were involved in all of

698
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 3: these cases. We could look at their cases, We could

699
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: look at all cases from this era. You know, cdcr's

700
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 3: budget for this year is over fourteen billion dollars. Just

701
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: imagine what would happen if we just spent a tiny

702
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 3: fraction of that on actually looking for where things went wrong,

703
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: starting with the places we already know things went Everybody

704
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: should have a chance to prove themselves no is as

705
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: bad as the worst thing they've ever done. And you know,

706
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: these guys who have done all this time like you

707
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: are Land, like Yuki, and who have come out and

708
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: shown like I mean, one of the things I just

709
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 3: love also about what you've been doing is just highlighting

710
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: the humanity of people right whether they're incarcerated or not.

711
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 3: We are all have this huge amount to offer and give,

712
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 3: and I just would love for us to stop leaving

713
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: so many people behind and really start focusing on using

714
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: our resources in better ways.

715
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: What I want to say, you know, to all be listening.

716
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 4: I want to lay everybody know that what happened to

717
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 4: me is continually happening right now, and the only way

718
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: it can be at top we all have to come

719
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 4: out together and do something about it. I always say,

720
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 4: if you were capable to go to the moon, we

721
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: have to be capable to prevent that anal same pace

722
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 4: go to prison, simple like that. How can you go

723
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 4: to the moon but you cannot premain one person to

724
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 4: go to prison. It domain saying I know, right now,

725
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 4: at this moment, in some part of the country, in

726
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 4: a court house, somebody's going to prison right now, being innocing.

727
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 4: It is no doubt in my mind. And he going

728
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 4: through for the same thing that I go through when

729
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 4: I was in that position. I know we can stop it.

730
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 4: I know we can do so anything about it because

731
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: I know Number one is we need to make the

732
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 4: dis ratony accountable for any wrong doing that they do.

733
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 4: And I said the every dish rat No, we got

734
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: some really good distro rattorney that they do their job,

735
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 4: They go by the law and they honest the people,

736
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 4: how walking people. But we got some other one that

737
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 4: they don't care, they don't get They want to wing

738
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 4: our cakes, our this space on the ego same people.

739
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: We have to stop.

740
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 4: Doc.

741
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host

742
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: Erline Woods. I like to thank executive producers Jason Flumm

743
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: and Kevin Waters for inviting me to be here. Good

744
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: Looking Special Thanks to our wonderful production team. Connor Hall,

745
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn. The music in

746
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: this production comes from three times Oscar Numbernee Jay Rath.

747
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

748
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

749
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: Rome Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all

750
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: three platforms. You can find me online at Erline Woods,

751
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: and you can find my podcast ear Hustle wherever you

752
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a producttion of Bothering

753
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one