WEBVTT - Amanda Knox Knows What You’re Thinking 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:33.236 Pushkin hay Slight Changers. First, a quick reminder, I've launched 0:00:33.276 --> 0:00:36.716 a newsletter. I'm so excited about it. It's called Change 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:40.836 with Maya Shunker. Every other week, I share personal reflections 0:00:41.036 --> 0:00:43.476 behind the scenes, look at my interviews on the show, 0:00:43.956 --> 0:00:46.796 bits of what I'm watching or listening to, and some 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:49.236 prompts for you to think about as you go about 0:00:49.276 --> 0:00:52.036 your week. It's free and you can sign up at 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:55.196 Changewithmaya dot com or click on the link in our 0:00:55.196 --> 0:00:59.556 show notes. Last week, we previewed two upcoming episodes about 0:00:59.556 --> 0:01:03.316 Amanda Knox. Today you'll hear the first one. I had 0:01:03.316 --> 0:01:06.476 this conversation with Amanda back in twenty twenty one, and 0:01:06.516 --> 0:01:09.916 it provides some valuable context about who she is and 0:01:09.956 --> 0:01:13.156 what she's been through. I really recommend listening to this 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:16.156 episode before you tune in next week. I hope you 0:01:16.276 --> 0:01:16.716 enjoy it. 0:01:18.556 --> 0:01:24.076 When I was told you're guilty and you are sentenced 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:28.316 to twenty six years, I mean everything I thought to 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:31.916 be true about the world collapsed in on itself and 0:01:32.436 --> 0:01:37.756 I had this kind of quick an adaptation in my 0:01:37.876 --> 0:01:42.516 mind where I thought, oh, I'm not this lost tourist 0:01:42.996 --> 0:01:47.116 who's waiting to go home. I am a prisoner, like 0:01:47.156 --> 0:01:49.836 this isn't just a thing that is happening to me. 0:01:49.956 --> 0:01:52.836 This is my life, and whether or not it's based 0:01:52.876 --> 0:01:56.716 in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined a killer. 0:01:57.756 --> 0:02:00.956 That's Amanda Knox describing the moment when an Italian court 0:02:00.996 --> 0:02:03.996 found her guilty of a heinous crime she did not commit, 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:08.156 the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. Amanda was just 0:02:08.236 --> 0:02:11.556 twenty years old when this all unfolded. She spent four 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:14.956 years in an Italian prison before she was finally exonerated 0:02:15.236 --> 0:02:18.956 and allowed to return home to America, but the reality 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:21.476 of what she faced upon her return was not at 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:22.876 all what she expected. 0:02:23.396 --> 0:02:26.876 When I first came home, I thought that I was 0:02:26.916 --> 0:02:30.516 going to get to have the life that I had 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:35.036 left behind back that once this is all worked out 0:02:35.076 --> 0:02:37.796 and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I get to 0:02:37.836 --> 0:02:40.516 go back to my life that I lost that was 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:45.196 on pause, and I realized that that life didn't exist anymore. 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:51.236 On today's episode, what happens when the world simply won't 0:02:51.316 --> 0:02:56.436 let you move on. I'm Maya Shunker and this is 0:02:56.476 --> 0:02:59.276 a slight change of plans, a show about who we 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.876 are and who we become in the face of a 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:07.996 big change, you know, to begin with it. It's so 0:03:08.076 --> 0:03:11.476 interesting for a guest with your story, you know, I 0:03:11.476 --> 0:03:14.196 would do the work of trying to figure out, Okay, 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:16.996 how do I summarize for the listener what it is 0:03:17.036 --> 0:03:20.116 that this person has gone through. But because so many 0:03:20.156 --> 0:03:22.836 people have tried to appropriate your story over the years, 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.516 I don't want to do that. I want this, Amanda. 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:27.836 I want to hear your story. 0:03:27.476 --> 0:03:31.156 In your words, absolutely, and thank you for that. When 0:03:31.196 --> 0:03:33.676 I was twenty years old, I decided that I wanted 0:03:33.676 --> 0:03:36.676 to study abroad. I ended up choosing a program and 0:03:36.716 --> 0:03:41.836 a really small ancient city in the middle of Italy 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:47.716 called Perusia. I moved into an apartment in a small 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.876 house overlooking this beautiful valley with three other young women, 0:03:52.876 --> 0:03:57.116 two Italian girls and a British student who was just 0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:01.036 like a year older than me named Meredith. And the 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:04.996 day after Halloween, on November first, I was hanging out 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:10.836 with my new love fling of five days, Rafaele Salchico, 0:04:11.076 --> 0:04:15.996 and Meredith was home alone and a local burglar named 0:04:16.076 --> 0:04:19.956 Rudy Guidet broke into our home and raped and murdered her, 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:25.596 and then fled the country. And I discovered all of 0:04:25.676 --> 0:04:27.996 this by coming home next day to take a shower 0:04:28.196 --> 0:04:32.036 and noticing that our home was in disarray I had. 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:35.556 I brought Rafaela over, we called the police together. The 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:39.516 police came and discovered the crime scene, Meredith's body, which 0:04:39.556 --> 0:04:43.636 fortunately I never had to see in person. But unfortunately 0:04:44.356 --> 0:04:48.996 there was a lot of frantic energy, a lot of confusion, 0:04:49.036 --> 0:04:53.196 a lot of fear in those opening. You know, days 0:04:53.316 --> 0:04:57.556 after the murder was discovered, it was immediately of tremendous 0:04:57.956 --> 0:05:02.756 public interest. International media was descending upon Perusia, talking to 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:06.516 any single person that they possibly could. Meanwhile, I'm spending 0:05:06.596 --> 0:05:08.876 hours and hours and hours at the police station trying 0:05:08.876 --> 0:05:11.516 to help the police uncover what happened to my friend. 0:05:12.156 --> 0:05:17.836 And I spent about fifty three hours over five days 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:21.636 in that police office, being questioned over and over and 0:05:21.716 --> 0:05:24.676 over again, telling them the same story that I've been 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:27.556 telling them what happened that night as far as I knew, 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:29.876 and they were telling me that I was wrong, that 0:05:29.996 --> 0:05:35.156 everything that I remembered was wrong, that I was traumatized, 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:39.916 and that my freedom and my access to my family 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:44.036 depended upon me remembering something that I couldn't remember, and 0:05:44.476 --> 0:05:49.036 I was alone. I was speaking of foreign language, I 0:05:49.196 --> 0:05:52.156 was without a lawyer. I was asking for my mom, 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:56.036 I was asking for any help whatsoever, and instead I 0:05:56.076 --> 0:05:59.956 got slapped and screamed at for hours until I was 0:06:00.036 --> 0:06:04.316 willing to sign a statement that they wrote implicating my 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.996 boss Patrick L. Mumba. I caved. It was the only 0:06:08.076 --> 0:06:10.116 thing that made sense to me anymore. I started to 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:15.636 doubt my own sanity, and I signed those papers and 0:06:16.436 --> 0:06:20.476 they immediately ran off to go arrest my boss Patrick, 0:06:20.956 --> 0:06:24.916 and I was finally left alone to breathe and think 0:06:25.396 --> 0:06:32.036 straight after hours of horrible treatment, and I immediately recanted. 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:35.596 I told them, oh my god, there's a huge mistake. 0:06:35.756 --> 0:06:38.196 I was under a lot of pressure. I don't actually 0:06:38.636 --> 0:06:42.956 remember witnessing any murder whatsoever. They wouldn't listen to me. 0:06:43.156 --> 0:06:46.436 They told me that with time my memories would come back, 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:49.596 and that I just needed to be quiet. And like 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:51.756 just a few days later, I was brought before a 0:06:51.876 --> 0:06:56.316 judge and finally finally told you are under investigation for 0:06:56.396 --> 0:06:57.836 the murder of Meredith Kircher. 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:02.316 So there's a few critical moments in what you just 0:07:02.356 --> 0:07:06.156 described that I'm interested to hear more about. In particular 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:09.476 what your psychology was like at the time, as well 0:07:09.476 --> 0:07:12.916 as how you might think differently about that experience now. 0:07:14.036 --> 0:07:16.116 And the first is you know, when you were trying 0:07:16.116 --> 0:07:19.116 to be helpful to the police right to help identify 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:24.156 who the murderer was, they began using aggressive interrogation tactics 0:07:24.196 --> 0:07:28.556 on you. As you said, they accused you of having amnesia. 0:07:28.996 --> 0:07:33.716 It led you to engage in false confessions. And I 0:07:33.756 --> 0:07:36.716 can only imagine how traumatizing it is to go through 0:07:36.756 --> 0:07:40.756 something like that, especially when you don't understand that the 0:07:40.836 --> 0:07:44.076 human mind is in fact capable of such things, right. 0:07:44.116 --> 0:07:46.716 I think it is actually really hard for most people 0:07:46.756 --> 0:07:50.756 to appreciate the conditions under which they would be likely 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:55.356 to generate false memories or false confessions. And I think 0:07:55.396 --> 0:07:57.796 the reason why I feel like this is such an 0:07:57.836 --> 0:08:00.196 important part of your story to bring to light is 0:08:00.236 --> 0:08:05.676 that when you are made to question your own sanity, 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:11.796 your own ability to accurate the reason about the world 0:08:11.876 --> 0:08:15.076 around you, that is damaging. That puts you in a 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:19.636 state where I imagine it's easy to feel broken because 0:08:19.676 --> 0:08:22.836 you start asking yourself questions like how how was I 0:08:22.876 --> 0:08:25.636 capable of that? How is I capable of implicating this? 0:08:25.876 --> 0:08:28.076 Totally innocent person. Yeah. 0:08:28.116 --> 0:08:32.796 Absolutely, And that's actually a really interesting way of framing 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:36.956 that question, because of course, going into an interrogation room, 0:08:37.636 --> 0:08:40.956 you don't think I would ever say anything that would 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:43.916 that I don't know to be true, and that would 0:08:43.956 --> 0:08:46.636 that would implicate me or not be to like you know, 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:50.196 that could be compromising to oneself, like that's that is 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:54.276 it's so counterintuitive. I didn't know that this was possible. 0:08:54.596 --> 0:08:56.396 I didn't even know that police could lie to you 0:08:56.916 --> 0:08:58.596 like I did. I just there was so much I 0:08:58.636 --> 0:09:04.156 didn't know, and I therefore, like my my instinct when 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:08.316 all of this became a catastrophe was to blame myself 0:09:08.356 --> 0:09:10.716 because I didn't know who else to blame. I didn't 0:09:10.716 --> 0:09:16.076 know that there was a specific police interrogation technique designed 0:09:16.156 --> 0:09:20.076 to break down people to just admit to something. And 0:09:20.116 --> 0:09:26.436 it wasn't until a cognitive scientist who studies false confessions 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:29.436 reached out to me, and it was while I was 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:32.036 still in prison, it was after I had been convicted. 0:09:32.836 --> 0:09:35.076 He didn't share any research with me at first. He 0:09:35.156 --> 0:09:38.556 just said, please describe everything you can possibly remember about 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:41.076 your interrogation and send it to me. So I did, 0:09:41.156 --> 0:09:44.156 and it was it was hard even doing that, because 0:09:44.196 --> 0:09:47.276 it was the scariest moment of my life, the most 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:50.396 confusing moment of my life, and it's the moment of 0:09:50.436 --> 0:09:54.196 my life that I felt the most shame about because 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:57.796 I just I couldn't explain even to myself why it happened. 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:00.476 I honestly couldn't. I just felt like there was something 0:10:00.476 --> 0:10:02.156 wrong with me, and I was the only one in 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:04.476 the world that had ever happened to as far as 0:10:04.556 --> 0:10:07.676 I knew, and of course everyone was judging me as 0:10:07.716 --> 0:10:11.596 a bad person because of it. And then he responded 0:10:11.636 --> 0:10:15.596 by sending me back his research, and his research showed 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:20.196 that the exact way that they had broken me down 0:10:20.676 --> 0:10:25.076 was just like, you know, point for point, just how 0:10:25.156 --> 0:10:32.556 you break down innocent people. And that moment of relief 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:38.356 and self forgiveness was tremendous for me because it was 0:10:38.396 --> 0:10:42.756 at that point that I really really understood that my 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:46.476 wrongful conviction wasn't really my fault, that I had been 0:10:46.596 --> 0:10:52.596 set up, and that there were a lot of forces 0:10:52.676 --> 0:10:54.916 at play, a lot of people who had, you know, 0:10:54.996 --> 0:10:57.716 a ton of agency in this equation, and I was 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:01.076 the least among them. I was at the mercy of 0:11:01.076 --> 0:11:04.756 people who were not just taking advantage of me, but 0:11:05.116 --> 0:11:08.156 actively trying to destroy my life. 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:12.876 Yeah. I like to talk for a bit about the 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:16.516 time that you spent in prison, because you spent four 0:11:16.596 --> 0:11:19.476 years in full, but at one point you were sentenced 0:11:19.516 --> 0:11:23.676 to twenty six years in prison. Yes, and as an 0:11:23.676 --> 0:11:26.876 early twenty something, twenty six years is like your entire 0:11:26.916 --> 0:11:27.676 freaking life. 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:30.556 It is your entire freaking life. 0:11:31.116 --> 0:11:34.556 I want to know what was your relationship with Hope 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:37.836 during your time in prison, and I'm just curious if 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:38.796 you can dig into that a bit. 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:44.836 Yeah, absolutely so. And it's interesting how I had, like 0:11:44.876 --> 0:11:48.516 this tremendous shift happen because the first two years, while 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:50.636 I was still on trial and believing that all of 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:55.076 this was just a huge out of proportion misunderstanding, I 0:11:55.116 --> 0:11:59.076 was convinced that I was going to eventually be going home. 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:02.196 And there were moments in that time where I was 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:05.076 just like, oh my god, you know, I've been here 0:12:05.596 --> 0:12:08.916 so long, Like I missed my twenty first birthday that 0:12:08.996 --> 0:12:11.476 I you know, I'd always thought, oh I would go 0:12:11.516 --> 0:12:14.596 and have a drink with my dad. Nope, that didn't happen. 0:12:16.196 --> 0:12:19.476 So feeling like I was losing really important parts of 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:22.876 my life. But ultimately thinking this is a really, really 0:12:23.356 --> 0:12:26.636 long nightmare that does have an expiration date, and that 0:12:26.756 --> 0:12:31.396 expiration date is the verdict. And my family, especially my mom, 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:33.556 very much like that was sort of our mantra that 0:12:33.596 --> 0:12:35.556 there is a light at the end of this very 0:12:35.996 --> 0:12:43.036 long dark tunnel. And when I then was told you're 0:12:43.036 --> 0:12:47.196 guilty and you are sentenced to twenty six years, I 0:12:47.236 --> 0:12:50.236 mean everything I thought to be true about the world 0:12:50.596 --> 0:12:54.996 collapsed in on itself. I very much felt like the 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:57.716 ground beneath me had fallen away and I had nothing 0:12:57.716 --> 0:13:01.956 to stand on. I literally collapsed between you know, my attorneys, 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:03.756 and then the guards sort of had to carry me 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:07.556 out of this courtroom where I'm hysterical, like unable to 0:13:07.596 --> 0:13:12.236 believe what is happening. And I had this very very 0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:18.556 i mean kind of quick an adaptation in my mind 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:23.756 where I thought, oh, I'm not this lost tourist who's 0:13:23.796 --> 0:13:27.636 waiting to go home. I am a prisoner, Like this 0:13:28.276 --> 0:13:30.476 isn't just a thing that is happening to me. This 0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:33.956 is my life. This is my life now, and whether 0:13:34.036 --> 0:13:37.076 or not it's based in truth, this defines me. I've 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:40.276 just been defined a killer, and I have just been 0:13:40.356 --> 0:13:44.116 told the only place that you belong is behind bars 0:13:44.476 --> 0:13:47.716 for the majority of your life. And all those things 0:13:47.756 --> 0:13:50.636 that you thought that you would get to have in 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:54.716 your life, a family, a career, the opportunity to be 0:13:54.916 --> 0:13:59.356 with your family and watch your nephews grow and your 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:01.596 kids grow, and all of these things that I thought 0:14:01.596 --> 0:14:03.836 were going to be a part of my life were 0:14:03.956 --> 0:14:06.396 not a part of my life. That was never going 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:11.156 to be a part of my life, And and what 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:18.396 is my life? Then? Who am? I? And my mom 0:14:18.636 --> 0:14:21.276 had a very different relationship with hope than I did. 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:25.876 She didn't have that shift happen when I was convicted. 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:29.516 She looked at this and I think just out of desperation, like, oh, 0:14:29.556 --> 0:14:31.956 the tunnel is just longer than we thought it was. 0:14:32.396 --> 0:14:34.476 But you are going to get out. You are going 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:36.796 to be found innocent, you are going to be vindicated. 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:39.396 You are innocent, You're my daughter. You're going to come home. 0:14:40.156 --> 0:14:43.516 And after my conviction, I wasn't sure about that anymore, 0:14:44.036 --> 0:14:46.996 Like I didn't have any reason to believe that anymore. 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:51.636 And I ended up having really really difficult conversations with 0:14:51.676 --> 0:14:54.676 her where I said, well, I hope that happens, mom, 0:14:54.676 --> 0:14:58.116 but if it doesn't, I hope that I can achieve 0:14:58.236 --> 0:15:01.196 this goal in the prison environment, or I hope that 0:15:01.676 --> 0:15:04.276 one day I'll be able to, you know, write about 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:06.956 my experience, so that i'm you know, at least one 0:15:07.076 --> 0:15:11.556 voice voicing my experience in this huge, you know, world 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:14.756 of voices who are calling me a murderer, and maybe 0:15:14.796 --> 0:15:18.076 one day it'll matter. I hope that I stay healthy. 0:15:18.156 --> 0:15:20.316 I hope that I don't get sick like all these things. 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:26.356 And my mom viewed that as a kind of mental 0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:28.956 giving up, like I had given up on the fight 0:15:29.036 --> 0:15:31.916 for my innocence. And I hadn't. It's just that I 0:15:32.036 --> 0:15:36.596 had to live. It was very apparent to me that 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.316 I was not. Like at the end of the day, 0:15:39.516 --> 0:15:42.716 every day I went back to my cell, back to 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:45.596 my cot and that's where I stayed. 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:49.396 Amanda, how do you get through those days? I mean, 0:15:49.436 --> 0:15:55.196 you said, you're having to confront this idea of inhabiting 0:15:55.236 --> 0:15:58.116 this new identity, this identity that's been thrust upon you, 0:15:58.196 --> 0:16:01.996 which is prisoner, and it's been unjustifiably thrust upon you. 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:07.156 Well, the first step was acknowledging that this is a community, 0:16:07.676 --> 0:16:10.796 but it is full of a lot of a lot 0:16:10.876 --> 0:16:15.036 of human suffering and a lot of humanity. I lived 0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:19.996 alongside people who had done really horrible things, and these 0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:24.076 were my people, I guess is a way of saying it, 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:27.316 like this was my community, whether I liked it or not. 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:32.436 And I started to realize that I wasn't just sort 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:36.076 of a separate or a part entity of it. I 0:16:36.156 --> 0:16:40.316 was an integral entity in that community. And I started 0:16:40.316 --> 0:16:44.316 to think about what is my role in it? What 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:47.996 can I do? What is the best thing that I 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:51.916 can do in that space? And so I ended up 0:16:51.916 --> 0:16:56.036 spending a lot of time helping people write letters. Another 0:16:56.196 --> 0:16:59.716 job was simply acting as translator. There was no translator 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:03.116 available to any of the prisoners, so any prisoners who 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:06.996 didn't speak Italian had no way of knowing what court 0:17:07.076 --> 0:17:10.716 documents they were signing or how to tell the doctor 0:17:10.796 --> 0:17:13.756 that they weren't feeling well. And so I was constantly 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:19.276 called in to help other prisoners understand what was happening 0:17:20.156 --> 0:17:21.676 and translating for them. 0:17:23.636 --> 0:17:26.076 What was your contact with the outside world like during 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:29.636 this time, I mean, did you have family and friends' 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:34.156 emotional psychological support helping to ground you in your new reality? 0:17:35.516 --> 0:17:38.676 So the thing that was the hardest for my family 0:17:38.796 --> 0:17:41.156 was of course that they at a certain point, they 0:17:41.196 --> 0:17:43.956 couldn't hold my hand right like at the end of 0:17:43.996 --> 0:17:47.196 a visitation. They went one way and I went another. 0:17:47.796 --> 0:17:51.476 And I know that like if my mom could have 0:17:51.636 --> 0:17:54.516 traded places with me, she would have in a second, 0:17:54.596 --> 0:17:57.876 but she couldn't, So all they could do was try 0:17:57.916 --> 0:18:01.796 to remind me that I didn't belong there, that I 0:18:01.876 --> 0:18:03.636 had a home and I had a life, and I 0:18:03.676 --> 0:18:06.916 had people who cared about me waiting for me. So 0:18:07.516 --> 0:18:10.196 I had one ten minute phone call a week. Every 0:18:10.276 --> 0:18:13.556 every week, my family and friends piled into my mom's 0:18:13.556 --> 0:18:16.956 house for a six am ten minute phone call just 0:18:16.996 --> 0:18:19.036 to hear my voice and let me know that they 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:22.996 were they remembered me, and that they cared about me. 0:18:23.836 --> 0:18:28.516 And one day I was waiting at my cell door 0:18:29.276 --> 0:18:31.516 like usual because I knew the exact time that I 0:18:31.556 --> 0:18:36.996 would go and have my call, and the guard didn't come, 0:18:38.076 --> 0:18:46.236 and I called out agente la telephonata guard guard my 0:18:46.636 --> 0:18:51.356 phone call, and I called again. No one answered. I 0:18:51.396 --> 0:18:55.436 called again, no one answered. I spent a good half 0:18:55.476 --> 0:19:02.036 an hour getting more and more anxious and miserable and 0:19:02.116 --> 0:19:06.956 desperate and crying and yelling and feeling like a caged animal, 0:19:07.716 --> 0:19:11.996 until finally a guard came up and was like, what 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:14.356 the hell are you screaming about? And I was like, 0:19:14.396 --> 0:19:16.516 my phone call, my phone call? Have I missed my 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:19.036 phone call? And they said, we're not doing phone calls today. 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:22.516 We're low, we're short staffed, we're not doing phone calls today. 0:19:22.836 --> 0:19:25.196 They just approached me and were like, what are you 0:19:25.236 --> 0:19:29.716 crying about? Like shut up? And that was one of 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:33.716 those moments where I felt like, Wow, I am subhuman 0:19:33.996 --> 0:19:38.196 right now, Like it didn't even occur to them to 0:19:38.316 --> 0:19:41.596 tell me. It didn't occur to them that would matter 0:19:41.636 --> 0:19:46.596 to me, and it was I had this moment of 0:19:46.716 --> 0:19:51.116 worry that no matter how hard my family and friends tried, 0:19:51.756 --> 0:19:57.156 our lives were diverging so drastically that we would become 0:19:57.196 --> 0:20:00.836 strangers to each other despite our best efforts, just because 0:20:00.916 --> 0:20:03.996 I was living such a different existence than they were, 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:10.716 and my world and my opportunities and the psychological effort 0:20:10.716 --> 0:20:12.996 that I had to put in to deal with the 0:20:13.036 --> 0:20:15.876 situation that I was in was very different than theirs. 0:20:16.436 --> 0:20:23.156 Yeah. Yeah, can you paint the scene for me of 0:20:23.196 --> 0:20:26.436 the day that you were acquitted? Yes, what was that day? 0:20:26.556 --> 0:20:28.996 Like that was a. 0:20:28.956 --> 0:20:34.756 Really bizarre day. I'll just have to describe it to you. 0:20:34.836 --> 0:20:38.676 So I got up, I got dressed, I did the 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:41.676 normal going down, get into the prison van. I was 0:20:41.676 --> 0:20:44.436 brought up into the courtroom. Everyone had their final word, 0:20:44.836 --> 0:20:46.716 and the court was dismissed for the day, and I 0:20:46.756 --> 0:20:50.836 was brought back to the prison and I knew that 0:20:50.876 --> 0:20:52.756 it was going to take a long time, that I 0:20:52.836 --> 0:20:55.756 had several hours ahead of me of not knowing what 0:20:55.836 --> 0:20:58.556 was going to happen. I tried to distract myself in 0:20:58.596 --> 0:21:00.556 the meantime, and I had a very hard time of it, 0:21:01.076 --> 0:21:07.116 and ultimately my relief came when the prison chaplain, who 0:21:07.156 --> 0:21:08.796 had become a good friend of mine despite the fact 0:21:08.796 --> 0:21:13.236 that I'm actually, you know, an atheist, he invited me 0:21:13.316 --> 0:21:17.036 down into his office like usual, and we played music together. 0:21:19.596 --> 0:21:22.516 He had this keyboard and he taught me how to play, 0:21:22.836 --> 0:21:26.356 and so I started playing this song that I had learned, 0:21:28.036 --> 0:21:32.116 and he uh surreptitiously took out this tape recorder, which 0:21:32.196 --> 0:21:35.916 he was absolutely not allowed to have, and he was like, 0:21:36.076 --> 0:21:39.036 I really want to record you because this is maybe 0:21:39.036 --> 0:21:42.596 the last time I hear your voice. 0:21:42.876 --> 0:21:44.116 So we sang. 0:21:44.156 --> 0:21:48.756 We played music together. At a certain point, I sat 0:21:48.796 --> 0:21:51.716 down on the couch with him and you know, he 0:21:51.836 --> 0:21:53.796 was talking to me about how I was feeling and 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:56.996 if I was afraid, and and eventually I went back 0:21:57.036 --> 0:22:00.116 to my cell, but I spent I spent many hours 0:22:00.196 --> 0:22:04.076 just in the office with him, just crying and talking. 0:22:05.916 --> 0:22:10.516 And then finally in the evening they brought me back 0:22:10.556 --> 0:22:21.996 in and hearing him say acquitted and that she goes free, 0:22:22.196 --> 0:22:28.876 I I I broke down at that moment too, like 0:22:29.036 --> 0:22:31.676 that I had hoped and I was afraid to hope, 0:22:31.716 --> 0:22:35.116 and so suddenly this hope was alive for me again. 0:22:35.156 --> 0:22:37.636 Suddenly I was like, if I'm in this dark tunnel 0:22:37.676 --> 0:22:39.596 and I've closed my eyes to the light that is 0:22:39.636 --> 0:22:42.156 about to hit me, I was suddenly just like flooded 0:22:42.156 --> 0:22:48.716 with light, and I collapsed again, just hysterical, just crying, crying, crying, 0:22:48.836 --> 0:22:51.756 and to such a degree that the guards who were 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:56.476 with me, they thought that I had misunderstood the verdict. 0:22:56.516 --> 0:22:58.796 They thought that I had heard guilty, when in fact 0:22:58.836 --> 0:23:00.636 I had heard innocent, and so they were trying to 0:23:00.636 --> 0:23:03.516 tell me, no, it's okay, you won, you won, and 0:23:03.756 --> 0:23:06.276 I was just like, I know, I know. And then 0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:09.276 they brought me back to the prison to gather my thing, 0:23:09.356 --> 0:23:11.676 but not in a prison van. They put me in 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:14.316 a police car where I could actually look out the 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:19.836 windows and like a person again. And as I got 0:23:19.836 --> 0:23:24.236 back to the prison, like everyone was looking out their 0:23:24.276 --> 0:23:27.716 windows waiting to see it, and everyone started banging pots 0:23:27.756 --> 0:23:30.036 and pants and screaming their heads. 0:23:29.716 --> 0:23:32.276 Off, just le Berta Leerda. 0:23:32.956 --> 0:23:35.916 And then it was a whole high speed chase out 0:23:35.956 --> 0:23:38.476 of the prison to get to Rome, to where my 0:23:38.516 --> 0:23:43.036 family was, to a secret location, and it was it 0:23:43.116 --> 0:23:47.156 was very, very the most Jason Bourne scenario that I've 0:23:47.196 --> 0:23:47.756 ever been in. 0:23:52.236 --> 0:23:54.236 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:23:54.236 --> 0:24:08.396 of plans. After spending four years behind bars for a 0:24:08.436 --> 0:24:12.516 crime she did commit, Amanda Knox was finally exonerated and 0:24:12.556 --> 0:24:14.436 she soon headed back home to America. 0:24:15.676 --> 0:24:19.716 I was afraid to go to sleep, worried that it 0:24:19.716 --> 0:24:21.916 would mean that I would actually wake up in prison, 0:24:23.236 --> 0:24:25.236 like I had that moment where I was just trying 0:24:25.236 --> 0:24:27.196 to stay awake as long as I could because I 0:24:27.236 --> 0:24:30.236 was like, is this the dream? Am I just having 0:24:30.276 --> 0:24:34.716 the most vivid dream of my life? Or is this real? 0:24:36.476 --> 0:24:41.396 And when I first came home, I thought that I 0:24:41.476 --> 0:24:44.996 was going to get to have the life that I 0:24:45.036 --> 0:24:49.156 had left behind back I thought that, you know, I 0:24:49.236 --> 0:24:54.196 was under that same misconception that once this is all 0:24:54.236 --> 0:24:57.236 worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I 0:24:57.356 --> 0:24:59.756 get to go back to being me. I get to 0:24:59.796 --> 0:25:02.476 go back to my life that I lost that was 0:25:02.516 --> 0:25:11.116 on pause. And I slowly realized that life didn't exist anymore. 0:25:11.436 --> 0:25:13.476 And the reason I knew it didn't exist anymore is 0:25:13.516 --> 0:25:17.796 because I couldn't go out of my apartment building without 0:25:17.916 --> 0:25:21.596 you know, paparazzi following me to school, and I couldn't 0:25:21.636 --> 0:25:24.956 but even beyond that, like I also couldn't meet people 0:25:25.276 --> 0:25:29.236 who hadn't heard of me before, like you know, people 0:25:29.276 --> 0:25:31.676 in my classes who were taking pictures of me and 0:25:31.716 --> 0:25:36.036 posting them to social media and saying like, oh my god, 0:25:36.076 --> 0:25:38.076 I'm in you know, look who's in my class and 0:25:38.116 --> 0:25:42.596 the murderer, you know. So I knew that. I slowly 0:25:42.676 --> 0:25:48.276