1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changers. First, a quick reminder, I've launched 2 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:36,716 Speaker 1: a newsletter. I'm so excited about it. It's called Change 3 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: with Maya Shunker. Every other week, I share personal reflections 4 00:00:41,036 --> 00:00:43,476 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, look at my interviews on the show, 5 00:00:43,956 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 1: bits of what I'm watching or listening to, and some 6 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 1: prompts for you to think about as you go about 7 00:00:49,276 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: your week. It's free and you can sign up at 8 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,196 Speaker 1: Changewithmaya dot com or click on the link in our 9 00:00:55,196 --> 00:00:59,556 Speaker 1: show notes. Last week, we previewed two upcoming episodes about 10 00:00:59,556 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. Today you'll hear the first one. I had 11 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,476 Speaker 1: this conversation with Amanda back in twenty twenty one, and 12 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:09,916 Speaker 1: it provides some valuable context about who she is and 13 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 1: what she's been through. I really recommend listening to this 14 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:16,156 Speaker 1: episode before you tune in next week. I hope you 15 00:01:16,276 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 16 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 2: When I was told you're guilty and you are sentenced 17 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 2: to twenty six years, I mean everything I thought to 18 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 2: be true about the world collapsed in on itself and 19 00:01:32,436 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 2: I had this kind of quick an adaptation in my 20 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:42,516 Speaker 2: mind where I thought, oh, I'm not this lost tourist 21 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:47,116 Speaker 2: who's waiting to go home. I am a prisoner, like 22 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:49,836 Speaker 2: this isn't just a thing that is happening to me. 23 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 2: This is my life, and whether or not it's based 24 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:56,716 Speaker 2: in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined a killer. 25 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Knox describing the moment when an Italian court 26 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 1: found her guilty of a heinous crime she did not commit, 27 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:08,156 Speaker 1: the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. Amanda was just 28 00:02:08,236 --> 00:02:11,556 Speaker 1: twenty years old when this all unfolded. She spent four 29 00:02:11,636 --> 00:02:14,956 Speaker 1: years in an Italian prison before she was finally exonerated 30 00:02:15,236 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: and allowed to return home to America, but the reality 31 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 1: of what she faced upon her return was not at 32 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: all what she expected. 33 00:02:23,396 --> 00:02:26,876 Speaker 2: When I first came home, I thought that I was 34 00:02:26,916 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 2: going to get to have the life that I had 35 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:35,036 Speaker 2: left behind back that once this is all worked out 36 00:02:35,076 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 2: and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I get to 37 00:02:37,836 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 2: go back to my life that I lost that was 38 00:02:40,556 --> 00:02:45,196 Speaker 2: on pause, and I realized that that life didn't exist anymore. 39 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: On today's episode, what happens when the world simply won't 40 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 1: let you move on. I'm Maya Shunker and this is 41 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:59,276 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, a show about who we 42 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:01,876 Speaker 1: are and who we become in the face of a 43 00:03:01,916 --> 00:03:07,996 Speaker 1: big change, you know, to begin with it. It's so 44 00:03:08,076 --> 00:03:11,476 Speaker 1: interesting for a guest with your story, you know, I 45 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:14,196 Speaker 1: would do the work of trying to figure out, Okay, 46 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 1: how do I summarize for the listener what it is 47 00:03:17,036 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: that this person has gone through. But because so many 48 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: people have tried to appropriate your story over the years, 49 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,516 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. I want this, Amanda. 50 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:27,836 Speaker 1: I want to hear your story. 51 00:03:27,476 --> 00:03:31,156 Speaker 2: In your words, absolutely, and thank you for that. When 52 00:03:31,196 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 2: I was twenty years old, I decided that I wanted 53 00:03:33,676 --> 00:03:36,676 Speaker 2: to study abroad. I ended up choosing a program and 54 00:03:36,716 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 2: a really small ancient city in the middle of Italy 55 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:47,716 Speaker 2: called Perusia. I moved into an apartment in a small 56 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:51,876 Speaker 2: house overlooking this beautiful valley with three other young women, 57 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 2: two Italian girls and a British student who was just 58 00:03:57,276 --> 00:04:01,036 Speaker 2: like a year older than me named Meredith. And the 59 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:04,996 Speaker 2: day after Halloween, on November first, I was hanging out 60 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:10,836 Speaker 2: with my new love fling of five days, Rafaele Salchico, 61 00:04:11,076 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 2: and Meredith was home alone and a local burglar named 62 00:04:16,076 --> 00:04:19,956 Speaker 2: Rudy Guidet broke into our home and raped and murdered her, 63 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:25,596 Speaker 2: and then fled the country. And I discovered all of 64 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:27,996 Speaker 2: this by coming home next day to take a shower 65 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 2: and noticing that our home was in disarray I had. 66 00:04:32,556 --> 00:04:35,556 Speaker 2: I brought Rafaela over, we called the police together. The 67 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 2: police came and discovered the crime scene, Meredith's body, which 68 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 2: fortunately I never had to see in person. But unfortunately 69 00:04:44,356 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 2: there was a lot of frantic energy, a lot of confusion, 70 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:53,196 Speaker 2: a lot of fear in those opening. You know, days 71 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 2: after the murder was discovered, it was immediately of tremendous 72 00:04:57,956 --> 00:05:02,756 Speaker 2: public interest. International media was descending upon Perusia, talking to 73 00:05:02,796 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 2: any single person that they possibly could. Meanwhile, I'm spending 74 00:05:06,596 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 2: hours and hours and hours at the police station trying 75 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 2: to help the police uncover what happened to my friend. 76 00:05:12,156 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 2: And I spent about fifty three hours over five days 77 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:21,636 Speaker 2: in that police office, being questioned over and over and 78 00:05:21,716 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 2: over again, telling them the same story that I've been 79 00:05:24,716 --> 00:05:27,556 Speaker 2: telling them what happened that night as far as I knew, 80 00:05:27,796 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 2: and they were telling me that I was wrong, that 81 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:35,156 Speaker 2: everything that I remembered was wrong, that I was traumatized, 82 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 2: and that my freedom and my access to my family 83 00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 2: depended upon me remembering something that I couldn't remember, and 84 00:05:44,476 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 2: I was alone. I was speaking of foreign language, I 85 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:52,156 Speaker 2: was without a lawyer. I was asking for my mom, 86 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 2: I was asking for any help whatsoever, and instead I 87 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 2: got slapped and screamed at for hours until I was 88 00:06:00,036 --> 00:06:04,316 Speaker 2: willing to sign a statement that they wrote implicating my 89 00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:07,996 Speaker 2: boss Patrick L. Mumba. I caved. It was the only 90 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 2: thing that made sense to me anymore. I started to 91 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:15,636 Speaker 2: doubt my own sanity, and I signed those papers and 92 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 2: they immediately ran off to go arrest my boss Patrick, 93 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:24,916 Speaker 2: and I was finally left alone to breathe and think 94 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:32,036 Speaker 2: straight after hours of horrible treatment, and I immediately recanted. 95 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 2: I told them, oh my god, there's a huge mistake. 96 00:06:35,756 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 2: I was under a lot of pressure. I don't actually 97 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 2: remember witnessing any murder whatsoever. They wouldn't listen to me. 98 00:06:43,156 --> 00:06:46,436 Speaker 2: They told me that with time my memories would come back, 99 00:06:46,476 --> 00:06:49,596 Speaker 2: and that I just needed to be quiet. And like 100 00:06:49,836 --> 00:06:51,756 Speaker 2: just a few days later, I was brought before a 101 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 2: judge and finally finally told you are under investigation for 102 00:06:56,396 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 2: the murder of Meredith Kircher. 103 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 1: So there's a few critical moments in what you just 104 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 1: described that I'm interested to hear more about. In particular 105 00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:09,476 Speaker 1: what your psychology was like at the time, as well 106 00:07:09,476 --> 00:07:12,916 Speaker 1: as how you might think differently about that experience now. 107 00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:16,116 Speaker 1: And the first is you know, when you were trying 108 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:19,116 Speaker 1: to be helpful to the police right to help identify 109 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:24,156 Speaker 1: who the murderer was, they began using aggressive interrogation tactics 110 00:07:24,196 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: on you. As you said, they accused you of having amnesia. 111 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: It led you to engage in false confessions. And I 112 00:07:33,756 --> 00:07:36,716 Speaker 1: can only imagine how traumatizing it is to go through 113 00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:40,756 Speaker 1: something like that, especially when you don't understand that the 114 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: human mind is in fact capable of such things, right. 115 00:07:44,116 --> 00:07:46,716 Speaker 1: I think it is actually really hard for most people 116 00:07:46,756 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 1: to appreciate the conditions under which they would be likely 117 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:55,356 Speaker 1: to generate false memories or false confessions. And I think 118 00:07:55,396 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: the reason why I feel like this is such an 119 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 1: important part of your story to bring to light is 120 00:08:00,236 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 1: that when you are made to question your own sanity, 121 00:08:06,196 --> 00:08:11,796 Speaker 1: your own ability to accurate the reason about the world 122 00:08:11,876 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: around you, that is damaging. That puts you in a 123 00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: state where I imagine it's easy to feel broken because 124 00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 1: you start asking yourself questions like how how was I 125 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: capable of that? How is I capable of implicating this? 126 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: Totally innocent person. Yeah. 127 00:08:28,116 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's actually a really interesting way of framing 128 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 2: that question, because of course, going into an interrogation room, 129 00:08:37,636 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 2: you don't think I would ever say anything that would 130 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:43,916 Speaker 2: that I don't know to be true, and that would 131 00:08:43,956 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 2: that would implicate me or not be to like you know, 132 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 2: that could be compromising to oneself, like that's that is 133 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 2: it's so counterintuitive. I didn't know that this was possible. 134 00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:56,396 Speaker 2: I didn't even know that police could lie to you 135 00:08:56,916 --> 00:08:58,596 Speaker 2: like I did. I just there was so much I 136 00:08:58,636 --> 00:09:04,156 Speaker 2: didn't know, and I therefore, like my my instinct when 137 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 2: all of this became a catastrophe was to blame myself 138 00:09:08,356 --> 00:09:10,716 Speaker 2: because I didn't know who else to blame. I didn't 139 00:09:10,716 --> 00:09:16,076 Speaker 2: know that there was a specific police interrogation technique designed 140 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 2: to break down people to just admit to something. And 141 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 2: it wasn't until a cognitive scientist who studies false confessions 142 00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:29,436 Speaker 2: reached out to me, and it was while I was 143 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:32,036 Speaker 2: still in prison, it was after I had been convicted. 144 00:09:32,836 --> 00:09:35,076 Speaker 2: He didn't share any research with me at first. He 145 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 2: just said, please describe everything you can possibly remember about 146 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 2: your interrogation and send it to me. So I did, 147 00:09:41,156 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 2: and it was it was hard even doing that, because 148 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 2: it was the scariest moment of my life, the most 149 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:50,396 Speaker 2: confusing moment of my life, and it's the moment of 150 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 2: my life that I felt the most shame about because 151 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 2: I just I couldn't explain even to myself why it happened. 152 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 2: I honestly couldn't. I just felt like there was something 153 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 2: wrong with me, and I was the only one in 154 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 2: the world that had ever happened to as far as 155 00:10:04,556 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 2: I knew, and of course everyone was judging me as 156 00:10:07,716 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 2: a bad person because of it. And then he responded 157 00:10:11,636 --> 00:10:15,596 Speaker 2: by sending me back his research, and his research showed 158 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 2: that the exact way that they had broken me down 159 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:25,076 Speaker 2: was just like, you know, point for point, just how 160 00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:32,556 Speaker 2: you break down innocent people. And that moment of relief 161 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:38,356 Speaker 2: and self forgiveness was tremendous for me because it was 162 00:10:38,396 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 2: at that point that I really really understood that my 163 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:46,476 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction wasn't really my fault, that I had been 164 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:52,596 Speaker 2: set up, and that there were a lot of forces 165 00:10:52,676 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 2: at play, a lot of people who had, you know, 166 00:10:54,996 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 2: a ton of agency in this equation, and I was 167 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:01,076 Speaker 2: the least among them. I was at the mercy of 168 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:04,756 Speaker 2: people who were not just taking advantage of me, but 169 00:11:05,116 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 2: actively trying to destroy my life. 170 00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to talk for a bit about the 171 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 1: time that you spent in prison, because you spent four 172 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: years in full, but at one point you were sentenced 173 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:23,676 Speaker 1: to twenty six years in prison. Yes, and as an 174 00:11:23,676 --> 00:11:26,876 Speaker 1: early twenty something, twenty six years is like your entire 175 00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: freaking life. 176 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:30,556 Speaker 2: It is your entire freaking life. 177 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 1: I want to know what was your relationship with Hope 178 00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:37,836 Speaker 1: during your time in prison, and I'm just curious if 179 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: you can dig into that a bit. 180 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. And it's interesting how I had, like 181 00:11:44,876 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 2: this tremendous shift happen because the first two years, while 182 00:11:48,516 --> 00:11:50,636 Speaker 2: I was still on trial and believing that all of 183 00:11:50,636 --> 00:11:55,076 Speaker 2: this was just a huge out of proportion misunderstanding, I 184 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 2: was convinced that I was going to eventually be going home. 185 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 2: And there were moments in that time where I was 186 00:12:02,236 --> 00:12:05,076 Speaker 2: just like, oh my god, you know, I've been here 187 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:08,916 Speaker 2: so long, Like I missed my twenty first birthday that 188 00:12:08,996 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 2: I you know, I'd always thought, oh I would go 189 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 2: and have a drink with my dad. Nope, that didn't happen. 190 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:19,476 Speaker 2: So feeling like I was losing really important parts of 191 00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:22,876 Speaker 2: my life. But ultimately thinking this is a really, really 192 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:26,636 Speaker 2: long nightmare that does have an expiration date, and that 193 00:12:26,756 --> 00:12:31,396 Speaker 2: expiration date is the verdict. And my family, especially my mom, 194 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 2: very much like that was sort of our mantra that 195 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 2: there is a light at the end of this very 196 00:12:35,996 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 2: long dark tunnel. And when I then was told you're 197 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:47,196 Speaker 2: guilty and you are sentenced to twenty six years, I 198 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 2: mean everything I thought to be true about the world 199 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 2: collapsed in on itself. I very much felt like the 200 00:12:55,036 --> 00:12:57,716 Speaker 2: ground beneath me had fallen away and I had nothing 201 00:12:57,716 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 2: to stand on. I literally collapsed between you know, my attorneys, 202 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:03,756 Speaker 2: and then the guards sort of had to carry me 203 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 2: out of this courtroom where I'm hysterical, like unable to 204 00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 2: believe what is happening. And I had this very very 205 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:18,556 Speaker 2: i mean kind of quick an adaptation in my mind 206 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:23,756 Speaker 2: where I thought, oh, I'm not this lost tourist who's 207 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 2: waiting to go home. I am a prisoner, Like this 208 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 2: isn't just a thing that is happening to me. This 209 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:33,956 Speaker 2: is my life. This is my life now, and whether 210 00:13:34,036 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 2: or not it's based in truth, this defines me. I've 211 00:13:37,236 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 2: just been defined a killer, and I have just been 212 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 2: told the only place that you belong is behind bars 213 00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 2: for the majority of your life. And all those things 214 00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 2: that you thought that you would get to have in 215 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 2: your life, a family, a career, the opportunity to be 216 00:13:54,916 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 2: with your family and watch your nephews grow and your 217 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:01,596 Speaker 2: kids grow, and all of these things that I thought 218 00:14:01,596 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 2: were going to be a part of my life were 219 00:14:03,956 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 2: not a part of my life. That was never going 220 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:11,156 Speaker 2: to be a part of my life, And and what 221 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:18,396 Speaker 2: is my life? Then? Who am? I? And my mom 222 00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:21,276 Speaker 2: had a very different relationship with hope than I did. 223 00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 2: She didn't have that shift happen when I was convicted. 224 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:29,516 Speaker 2: She looked at this and I think just out of desperation, like, oh, 225 00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:31,956 Speaker 2: the tunnel is just longer than we thought it was. 226 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:34,476 Speaker 2: But you are going to get out. You are going 227 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 2: to be found innocent, you are going to be vindicated. 228 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:39,396 Speaker 2: You are innocent, You're my daughter. You're going to come home. 229 00:14:40,156 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 2: And after my conviction, I wasn't sure about that anymore, 230 00:14:44,036 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 2: Like I didn't have any reason to believe that anymore. 231 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 2: And I ended up having really really difficult conversations with 232 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 2: her where I said, well, I hope that happens, mom, 233 00:14:54,676 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 2: but if it doesn't, I hope that I can achieve 234 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 2: this goal in the prison environment, or I hope that 235 00:15:01,676 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 2: one day I'll be able to, you know, write about 236 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 2: my experience, so that i'm you know, at least one 237 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:11,556 Speaker 2: voice voicing my experience in this huge, you know, world 238 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 2: of voices who are calling me a murderer, and maybe 239 00:15:14,796 --> 00:15:18,076 Speaker 2: one day it'll matter. I hope that I stay healthy. 240 00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:20,316 Speaker 2: I hope that I don't get sick like all these things. 241 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:26,356 Speaker 2: And my mom viewed that as a kind of mental 242 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:28,956 Speaker 2: giving up, like I had given up on the fight 243 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 2: for my innocence. And I hadn't. It's just that I 244 00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 2: had to live. It was very apparent to me that 245 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 2: I was not. Like at the end of the day, 246 00:15:39,516 --> 00:15:42,716 Speaker 2: every day I went back to my cell, back to 247 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:45,596 Speaker 2: my cot and that's where I stayed. 248 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:49,396 Speaker 1: Amanda, how do you get through those days? I mean, 249 00:15:49,436 --> 00:15:55,196 Speaker 1: you said, you're having to confront this idea of inhabiting 250 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:58,116 Speaker 1: this new identity, this identity that's been thrust upon you, 251 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:01,996 Speaker 1: which is prisoner, and it's been unjustifiably thrust upon you. 252 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 2: Well, the first step was acknowledging that this is a community, 253 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:10,796 Speaker 2: but it is full of a lot of a lot 254 00:16:10,876 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 2: of human suffering and a lot of humanity. I lived 255 00:16:15,036 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 2: alongside people who had done really horrible things, and these 256 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:24,076 Speaker 2: were my people, I guess is a way of saying it, 257 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 2: like this was my community, whether I liked it or not. 258 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 2: And I started to realize that I wasn't just sort 259 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:36,076 Speaker 2: of a separate or a part entity of it. I 260 00:16:36,156 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 2: was an integral entity in that community. And I started 261 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:44,316 Speaker 2: to think about what is my role in it? What 262 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 2: can I do? What is the best thing that I 263 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 2: can do in that space? And so I ended up 264 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 2: spending a lot of time helping people write letters. Another 265 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:59,716 Speaker 2: job was simply acting as translator. There was no translator 266 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 2: available to any of the prisoners, so any prisoners who 267 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:06,996 Speaker 2: didn't speak Italian had no way of knowing what court 268 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 2: documents they were signing or how to tell the doctor 269 00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 2: that they weren't feeling well. And so I was constantly 270 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 2: called in to help other prisoners understand what was happening 271 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:21,676 Speaker 2: and translating for them. 272 00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 1: What was your contact with the outside world like during 273 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 1: this time, I mean, did you have family and friends' 274 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:34,156 Speaker 1: emotional psychological support helping to ground you in your new reality? 275 00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 2: So the thing that was the hardest for my family 276 00:17:38,796 --> 00:17:41,156 Speaker 2: was of course that they at a certain point, they 277 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,956 Speaker 2: couldn't hold my hand right like at the end of 278 00:17:43,996 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 2: a visitation. They went one way and I went another. 279 00:17:47,796 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 2: And I know that like if my mom could have 280 00:17:51,636 --> 00:17:54,516 Speaker 2: traded places with me, she would have in a second, 281 00:17:54,596 --> 00:17:57,876 Speaker 2: but she couldn't, So all they could do was try 282 00:17:57,916 --> 00:18:01,796 Speaker 2: to remind me that I didn't belong there, that I 283 00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 2: had a home and I had a life, and I 284 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:06,916 Speaker 2: had people who cared about me waiting for me. So 285 00:18:07,516 --> 00:18:10,196 Speaker 2: I had one ten minute phone call a week. Every 286 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 2: every week, my family and friends piled into my mom's 287 00:18:13,556 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 2: house for a six am ten minute phone call just 288 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,036 Speaker 2: to hear my voice and let me know that they 289 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 2: were they remembered me, and that they cared about me. 290 00:18:23,836 --> 00:18:28,516 Speaker 2: And one day I was waiting at my cell door 291 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 2: like usual because I knew the exact time that I 292 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 2: would go and have my call, and the guard didn't come, 293 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:46,236 Speaker 2: and I called out agente la telephonata guard guard my 294 00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 2: phone call, and I called again. No one answered. I 295 00:18:51,396 --> 00:18:55,436 Speaker 2: called again, no one answered. I spent a good half 296 00:18:55,476 --> 00:19:02,036 Speaker 2: an hour getting more and more anxious and miserable and 297 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 2: desperate and crying and yelling and feeling like a caged animal, 298 00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:11,996 Speaker 2: until finally a guard came up and was like, what 299 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 2: the hell are you screaming about? And I was like, 300 00:19:14,396 --> 00:19:16,516 Speaker 2: my phone call, my phone call? Have I missed my 301 00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:19,036 Speaker 2: phone call? And they said, we're not doing phone calls today. 302 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:22,516 Speaker 2: We're low, we're short staffed, we're not doing phone calls today. 303 00:19:22,836 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 2: They just approached me and were like, what are you 304 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 2: crying about? Like shut up? And that was one of 305 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 2: those moments where I felt like, Wow, I am subhuman 306 00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 2: right now, Like it didn't even occur to them to 307 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:41,596 Speaker 2: tell me. It didn't occur to them that would matter 308 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:46,596 Speaker 2: to me, and it was I had this moment of 309 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 2: worry that no matter how hard my family and friends tried, 310 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 2: our lives were diverging so drastically that we would become 311 00:19:57,196 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 2: strangers to each other despite our best efforts, just because 312 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 2: I was living such a different existence than they were, 313 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:10,716 Speaker 2: and my world and my opportunities and the psychological effort 314 00:20:10,716 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 2: that I had to put in to deal with the 315 00:20:13,036 --> 00:20:15,876 Speaker 2: situation that I was in was very different than theirs. 316 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:23,156 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, can you paint the scene for me of 317 00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:26,436 Speaker 1: the day that you were acquitted? Yes, what was that day? 318 00:20:26,556 --> 00:20:28,996 Speaker 1: Like that was a. 319 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 2: Really bizarre day. I'll just have to describe it to you. 320 00:20:34,836 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 2: So I got up, I got dressed, I did the 321 00:20:38,716 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 2: normal going down, get into the prison van. I was 322 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,436 Speaker 2: brought up into the courtroom. Everyone had their final word, 323 00:20:44,836 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 2: and the court was dismissed for the day, and I 324 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 2: was brought back to the prison and I knew that 325 00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 2: it was going to take a long time, that I 326 00:20:52,836 --> 00:20:55,756 Speaker 2: had several hours ahead of me of not knowing what 327 00:20:55,836 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 2: was going to happen. I tried to distract myself in 328 00:20:58,596 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 2: the meantime, and I had a very hard time of it, 329 00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:07,116 Speaker 2: and ultimately my relief came when the prison chaplain, who 330 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 2: had become a good friend of mine despite the fact 331 00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:13,236 Speaker 2: that I'm actually, you know, an atheist, he invited me 332 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 2: down into his office like usual, and we played music together. 333 00:21:19,596 --> 00:21:22,516 Speaker 2: He had this keyboard and he taught me how to play, 334 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 2: and so I started playing this song that I had learned, 335 00:21:28,036 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 2: and he uh surreptitiously took out this tape recorder, which 336 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 2: he was absolutely not allowed to have, and he was like, 337 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 2: I really want to record you because this is maybe 338 00:21:39,036 --> 00:21:42,596 Speaker 2: the last time I hear your voice. 339 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: So we sang. 340 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 2: We played music together. At a certain point, I sat 341 00:21:48,796 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 2: down on the couch with him and you know, he 342 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:53,796 Speaker 2: was talking to me about how I was feeling and 343 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 2: if I was afraid, and and eventually I went back 344 00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:00,116 Speaker 2: to my cell, but I spent I spent many hours 345 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:04,076 Speaker 2: just in the office with him, just crying and talking. 346 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 2: And then finally in the evening they brought me back 347 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 2: in and hearing him say acquitted and that she goes free, 348 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 2: I I I broke down at that moment too, like 349 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:31,676 Speaker 2: that I had hoped and I was afraid to hope, 350 00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 2: and so suddenly this hope was alive for me again. 351 00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 2: Suddenly I was like, if I'm in this dark tunnel 352 00:22:37,676 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 2: and I've closed my eyes to the light that is 353 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 2: about to hit me, I was suddenly just like flooded 354 00:22:42,156 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 2: with light, and I collapsed again, just hysterical, just crying, crying, crying, 355 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:51,756 Speaker 2: and to such a degree that the guards who were 356 00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 2: with me, they thought that I had misunderstood the verdict. 357 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 2: They thought that I had heard guilty, when in fact 358 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 2: I had heard innocent, and so they were trying to 359 00:23:00,636 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 2: tell me, no, it's okay, you won, you won, and 360 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 2: I was just like, I know, I know. And then 361 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:09,276 Speaker 2: they brought me back to the prison to gather my thing, 362 00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 2: but not in a prison van. They put me in 363 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,316 Speaker 2: a police car where I could actually look out the 364 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:19,836 Speaker 2: windows and like a person again. And as I got 365 00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 2: back to the prison, like everyone was looking out their 366 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:27,716 Speaker 2: windows waiting to see it, and everyone started banging pots 367 00:23:27,756 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 2: and pants and screaming their heads. 368 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 1: Off, just le Berta Leerda. 369 00:23:32,956 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 2: And then it was a whole high speed chase out 370 00:23:35,956 --> 00:23:38,476 Speaker 2: of the prison to get to Rome, to where my 371 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 2: family was, to a secret location, and it was it 372 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 2: was very, very the most Jason Bourne scenario that I've 373 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 2: ever been in. 374 00:23:52,236 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 375 00:23:54,236 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 1: of plans. After spending four years behind bars for a 376 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 1: crime she did commit, Amanda Knox was finally exonerated and 377 00:24:12,556 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 1: she soon headed back home to America. 378 00:24:15,676 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 2: I was afraid to go to sleep, worried that it 379 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:21,916 Speaker 2: would mean that I would actually wake up in prison, 380 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:25,236 Speaker 2: like I had that moment where I was just trying 381 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:27,196 Speaker 2: to stay awake as long as I could because I 382 00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:30,236 Speaker 2: was like, is this the dream? Am I just having 383 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 2: the most vivid dream of my life? Or is this real? 384 00:24:36,476 --> 00:24:41,396 Speaker 2: And when I first came home, I thought that I 385 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:44,996 Speaker 2: was going to get to have the life that I 386 00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:49,156 Speaker 2: had left behind back I thought that, you know, I 387 00:24:49,236 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 2: was under that same misconception that once this is all 388 00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:57,236 Speaker 2: worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I 389 00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 2: get to go back to being me. I get to 390 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:02,476 Speaker 2: go back to my life that I lost that was 391 00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 2: on pause. And I slowly realized that life didn't exist anymore. 392 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:13,476 Speaker 2: And the reason I knew it didn't exist anymore is 393 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 2: because I couldn't go out of my apartment building without 394 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:21,596 Speaker 2: you know, paparazzi following me to school, and I couldn't 395 00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 2: but even beyond that, like I also couldn't meet people 396 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 2: who hadn't heard of me before, like you know, people 397 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 2: in my classes who were taking pictures of me and 398 00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:36,036 Speaker 2: posting them to social media and saying like, oh my god, 399 00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 2: I'm in you know, look who's in my class and 400 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:42,596 Speaker 2: the murderer, you know. So I knew that. I slowly 401 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 2: realized and came to grips with the fact that not 402 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 2: only was the outside world not going to let me 403 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 2: go back to my life, but also I was living 404 00:25:55,196 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 2: now with experiences that I couldn't just put behind me 405 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:01,956 Speaker 2: as if they never happened. Right, I had lived four 406 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,996 Speaker 2: years in prison, and I had been on trial for murder, 407 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 2: and that, despite all of my best efforts, had left 408 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:15,676 Speaker 2: an impression on me. And now I was really really 409 00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:20,916 Speaker 2: sensitive to certain things, like to this day, I do 410 00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:24,236 Speaker 2: not farewell when someone accuses me of something that I 411 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:28,796 Speaker 2: didn't do, even if it's small, because it's just it's 412 00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:34,476 Speaker 2: so triggering that I'm very sensitive to it and it 413 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:43,876 Speaker 2: hurts a lot. So I had to come to an 414 00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 2: understanding that the world was not the same place for 415 00:26:47,676 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 2: me anymore. My role in it was not what I 416 00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 2: thought it could be, and I had to figure out 417 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 2: what was the best thing that I can do and 418 00:26:56,916 --> 00:26:59,716 Speaker 2: try to do it despite the fact that I also 419 00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:02,556 Speaker 2: knew that there were legions of people rooting against me, 420 00:27:03,276 --> 00:27:07,676 Speaker 2: hoping that I would live up to the Foxy Noxie 421 00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 2: narrative I would be just as bad as everyone thought 422 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:12,076 Speaker 2: I would be. 423 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:15,156 Speaker 1: And you were also put back on trial, right, which 424 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 1: compounds the narrative that people want out of you. 425 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah. And when the Supreme Court in Italy 426 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 2: overturned my acquittal, first of all, I didn't even realize 427 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 2: that that was possible because it so goes it goes 428 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 2: against what we assume here in the United States, which 429 00:27:34,676 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 2: is when you're found innocent. It's just it's done. No, 430 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 2: It's not like that in Italy because it's not done 431 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 2: until the Supreme Court decides it's done. So the prosecution 432 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:50,836 Speaker 2: appealed my acquittal. My acquittal was overturned and they convicted me. 433 00:27:51,516 --> 00:27:54,916 Speaker 2: I was actually sentenced to twenty eight point five years 434 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 2: at that conviction. 435 00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 1: So what was it like then, Amanda, to be definitively exonerated? 436 00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:02,396 Speaker 1: What was that day like? 437 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 2: That was astonishing because first of all, I'm here in 438 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:11,276 Speaker 2: the United States, so I'm like logging on to all 439 00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 2: of like the live streaming Italian news channels online to 440 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:18,636 Speaker 2: see which one is going to be reporting first on 441 00:28:19,116 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 2: what the verdict is. And I'm the only one in 442 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 2: my entire family who can speak fluent Italian. So here 443 00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 2: we all are crowded around my laptop. Everyone is around me, 444 00:28:29,716 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 2: and I hear definitively acquitted. I gasped. I was like 445 00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:38,676 Speaker 2: I was shocked, and everyone in my family was like 446 00:28:38,716 --> 00:28:41,076 Speaker 2: what what? What was what? What is it? And I 447 00:28:41,116 --> 00:28:43,476 Speaker 2: was like, it's over, it's over. 448 00:28:44,116 --> 00:28:44,796 Speaker 1: It's over. 449 00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,716 Speaker 2: Oh my god, it is over. And you know, of 450 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 2: course we're all like squealing and it it was. It 451 00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 2: was over. It was it was astonishing, Like the feeling 452 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:01,036 Speaker 2: of no longer being a prey animal that is being 453 00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:05,516 Speaker 2: hunted down was huge. And suddenly I felt like, oh 454 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:09,396 Speaker 2: my god, I can actually live my life. I can't 455 00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 2: just survive my life. I can live my life and 456 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:16,036 Speaker 2: no one is going to freaking stop me. I am 457 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 2: not going to let anyone feel like they can stop 458 00:29:19,316 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 2: me from living my life anymore. Like I'm done, Like 459 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 2: I'm done with that. 460 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that. I wonder 461 00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:32,276 Speaker 1: if it is that narrative in your mind that helps 462 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:36,076 Speaker 1: you stave off feelings of resentment, because if you are 463 00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 1: too resentful, then you have let them own a piece 464 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:40,236 Speaker 1: of your future, which is the one thing that you 465 00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:45,076 Speaker 1: can control. I can just so easily imagine getting consumed 466 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 1: by resentment, because you know, it's one thing for a 467 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: tragic event to happen in life, just because, like I 468 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 1: imagine being struck by lightning, there's no object to your anger, right, 469 00:29:56,276 --> 00:30:01,636 Speaker 1: but here there was malicious human intent and they haven't 470 00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 1: even shown any contrition. 471 00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's that's a great question, because I think 472 00:30:06,436 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 2: a lot of people come away from me thinking that 473 00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:12,156 Speaker 2: I don't actually experience anger, and I do like I 474 00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 2: have moments of like deep deep anger about what happened 475 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 2: and how it didn't need to happen. But I also 476 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 2: am aware that living four years in a room that 477 00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:33,516 Speaker 2: was locked really really showed me that the thing that 478 00:30:33,636 --> 00:30:36,516 Speaker 2: I have control over is my own mind. And that's 479 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:40,196 Speaker 2: pretty much it. And so if I am going to 480 00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 2: live my life, I need to be mindful of how 481 00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:48,716 Speaker 2: I'm allowing myself to live it and what sort of 482 00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:52,196 Speaker 2: feelings and thoughts I'm indulging in, because I think the 483 00:30:52,276 --> 00:30:56,556 Speaker 2: important thing to remember here is that I allow myself 484 00:30:56,596 --> 00:30:59,916 Speaker 2: to feel anger, but I try not to indulge in it. 485 00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:03,916 Speaker 2: And that's the difference, because I think that especially when 486 00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:08,676 Speaker 2: you feel righteous anger, you feel like you should entrench 487 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 2: yourself in it and like dig deep and like and 488 00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 2: know that pain and feel that and have that be 489 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,396 Speaker 2: the driving force in your life, because it is righteous. 490 00:31:16,436 --> 00:31:18,636 Speaker 2: It's coming from a place of like, I deserve to 491 00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 2: be angry. But just because you deserve to be angry 492 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:24,356 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that it's the thing that's going to make 493 00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 2: you your best self, And don't I don't want what 494 00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:31,636 Speaker 2: happened to me to turn me into something that is 495 00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 2: not my best self. I want to. I want to 496 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,396 Speaker 2: still feel like I'm in control of at least one 497 00:31:37,436 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 2: thing in my life, and that's me and how I'm 498 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:44,436 Speaker 2: reacting to a set of bad circumstances. On the one hand, 499 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:49,156 Speaker 2: your story is so exceptional and so extraordinary. On the 500 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:53,716 Speaker 2: other there are many themes that are so relatable. We 501 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 2: all have these moments in life where we think, oh, man, 502 00:31:57,156 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 2: this person, they really misunderstood me. If only I could 503 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,636 Speaker 2: clarify to them what the truth was, like what really happened, or. 504 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:06,196 Speaker 1: You know what I really mean. But we don't always 505 00:32:06,276 --> 00:32:09,916 Speaker 1: get the chance to set the record straight. And you 506 00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:12,396 Speaker 1: know today there are still slots of people out there 507 00:32:12,436 --> 00:32:15,716 Speaker 1: who think you are guilty of a crime you didn't commit. 508 00:32:16,036 --> 00:32:19,476 Speaker 1: And I want to know how you make peace with that, 509 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:23,876 Speaker 1: how you don't allow yourself to be driven insane by that, 510 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:27,516 Speaker 1: Because if you, Amanda, can come to terms with this, 511 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:30,316 Speaker 1: I imagine it could give a lot of listeners a 512 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 1: lot of hope who are dealing with far more quotitian misconceptions. 513 00:32:35,116 --> 00:32:37,756 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I appreciate also that you say that, like, 514 00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:39,836 Speaker 2: there's a lot of things in my experience that is 515 00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:43,436 Speaker 2: really relatable. One because actually the way that I was 516 00:32:43,476 --> 00:32:47,036 Speaker 2: wrongly convicted is not very different than the way lots 517 00:32:47,076 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 2: of people are wrongly convicted. You just don't hear about 518 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 2: their cases quite as often. But furthermore, I also appreciate 519 00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:56,156 Speaker 2: the fact that you are trying to relate to what 520 00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:58,316 Speaker 2: I'm talking about and how I feel like that feeling 521 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:02,036 Speaker 2: of being misrepresented, misunderstood. People finding fault in you are 522 00:33:02,116 --> 00:33:06,116 Speaker 2: stripping you of context given your situation. A lot of 523 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:07,556 Speaker 2: people reach out to me and say, like, how do 524 00:33:07,636 --> 00:33:09,236 Speaker 2: I deal with the fact that people are calling me 525 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:11,876 Speaker 2: a slut in my high school? Or what do I 526 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 2: do about how like my reputation is destroyed based upon this, 527 00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:19,876 Speaker 2: like one tweet I did when I was young. And 528 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:24,556 Speaker 2: one of the things that I I find personal peace 529 00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:27,756 Speaker 2: with is just knowing that, like all those people who 530 00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 2: hate me don't actually hate me, Like the person that 531 00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:36,356 Speaker 2: they think they hate doesn't even exist, so it's not me, 532 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:41,036 Speaker 2: Like they're directing their hate at at target that is 533 00:33:41,356 --> 00:33:45,436 Speaker 2: this sort of false version of me that doesn't really exist, 534 00:33:45,476 --> 00:33:48,476 Speaker 2: and I just happen to be the face and the 535 00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:52,556 Speaker 2: name that they associate with this fantasy. However, that doesn't 536 00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:54,956 Speaker 2: mean that I don't live with the sort of challenges 537 00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:58,196 Speaker 2: that come with people having preconceived notions of me as 538 00:33:58,236 --> 00:34:00,156 Speaker 2: I try to like put my work out into the 539 00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 2: world or just even you know, exist in public spaces. 540 00:34:05,076 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 1: Can you say more about that. How does that manifest? 541 00:34:08,796 --> 00:34:10,796 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I mean I think a lot of people 542 00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:12,636 Speaker 2: think that maybe people come up to me and are like, 543 00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:15,956 Speaker 2: you are guilty, But no, it's not how it manifests itself. 544 00:34:15,996 --> 00:34:18,956 Speaker 2: It's more like I drive up to the kiosk to 545 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:22,196 Speaker 2: get on a ferry. I give them my credit card. 546 00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:24,836 Speaker 2: The person sees my name on the credit card says 547 00:34:24,996 --> 00:34:28,316 Speaker 2: are you that a man to knocks? And I go yes, 548 00:34:28,556 --> 00:34:30,836 Speaker 2: and they say, well, I have some questions to you 549 00:34:30,916 --> 00:34:33,196 Speaker 2: about your your cartwheels and what you were saying in 550 00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 2: your interrogation. Meanwhile, this is the person who's like holding 551 00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:38,356 Speaker 2: onto my credit card and not giving it back to 552 00:34:38,356 --> 00:34:42,276 Speaker 2: me until I answer their questions for them. So it's 553 00:34:42,396 --> 00:34:45,636 Speaker 2: that kind of sense of entitlement that people have to 554 00:34:45,636 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 2: the worst experience of my life that at any point 555 00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:53,836 Speaker 2: that they happen to run into me, that continues to 556 00:34:53,876 --> 00:34:57,476 Speaker 2: be this challenge. But again I also understand that here 557 00:34:57,556 --> 00:35:01,236 Speaker 2: this person is who has invested themselves in the case, 558 00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 2: and this is like their one moment in their whole 559 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:04,516 Speaker 2: life where they feel like they're going to get to 560 00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:07,556 Speaker 2: finally have a question answered, and so they think, I can't, 561 00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:11,636 Speaker 2: you know, let this opportunity pass up, but failing to 562 00:35:11,716 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 2: appreciate that, well, I'm in the middle of my life 563 00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:17,916 Speaker 2: and my life does not revolve around answering your questions. 564 00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:21,996 Speaker 2: So it's a kind of failure of empathy. 565 00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:26,996 Speaker 1: Aman, I'm struck by the fact that you know, on 566 00:35:27,036 --> 00:35:29,916 Speaker 1: this show a slight change of plans. It's so much 567 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:34,756 Speaker 1: about identity, our self identity, the fragility of our identity, 568 00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:38,116 Speaker 1: who gets to own our identity, how our identities change 569 00:35:38,116 --> 00:35:42,316 Speaker 1: over time? And to me, your story screams of these themes, right, 570 00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:45,436 Speaker 1: I mean you might experience that with a much greater intensity, 571 00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:47,516 Speaker 1: which is that your identity in many ways has been 572 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:50,156 Speaker 1: usurped by lots of actors out in the world. But 573 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:55,116 Speaker 1: many of us feel that way, like who claims maya right? 574 00:35:55,236 --> 00:35:58,556 Speaker 1: Like who gets to define who I am and what 575 00:35:58,636 --> 00:35:59,236 Speaker 1: I've done? 576 00:35:59,436 --> 00:36:05,956 Speaker 2: So definitely, my ongoing curse is continuing to be defined 577 00:36:06,156 --> 00:36:10,476 Speaker 2: in the greater you know, human awareness, a crime that 578 00:36:10,556 --> 00:36:12,876 Speaker 2: I didn't commit, as opposed to all of the things 579 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 2: that I have done. Like the vast majority of people 580 00:36:15,836 --> 00:36:20,396 Speaker 2: when they think Amanda Knox, they don't think of podcaster, journalist, writer, 581 00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 2: They think girl who was accused of murder at best, right, 582 00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:32,596 Speaker 2: And my challenge has always been, well, first of all, 583 00:36:32,756 --> 00:36:36,236 Speaker 2: how important is it to me for me to define 584 00:36:36,636 --> 00:36:42,236 Speaker 2: my own narrative and legacy? Is that necessary for me 585 00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:46,196 Speaker 2: to live the life, like to live a happy life? 586 00:36:46,276 --> 00:36:51,676 Speaker 2: And you know, ultimately it's not necessary, right, Like I 587 00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:54,876 Speaker 2: don't have to convince everyone in the world that I'm 588 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:58,516 Speaker 2: innocent in order to live a fulfilled life, because ultimately 589 00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 2: living a fulfilled life is on me, right. 590 00:37:01,636 --> 00:37:01,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. 591 00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:05,836 Speaker 2: However, one of the more traumatic experiences someone can have 592 00:37:06,516 --> 00:37:11,836 Speaker 2: is to not be allowed to define what their experiences 593 00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:15,316 Speaker 2: mean to them. So not only like what their experience was, 594 00:37:15,356 --> 00:37:19,236 Speaker 2: but what it means to them. And so doing constant 595 00:37:19,396 --> 00:37:23,636 Speaker 2: processing work to define for myself what it means to 596 00:37:23,676 --> 00:37:28,156 Speaker 2: me is valuable to me and also in turn valuable 597 00:37:28,196 --> 00:37:30,476 Speaker 2: to others who are trying to find their own meaning 598 00:37:30,556 --> 00:37:33,596 Speaker 2: to their experiences. Because there is no inherent meaning to 599 00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:36,076 Speaker 2: any of our suffering, we have to make sense of 600 00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:38,476 Speaker 2: it and we have to define what it means, like 601 00:37:38,516 --> 00:37:41,756 Speaker 2: how big of a role it is in our life, so, 602 00:37:41,956 --> 00:37:45,676 Speaker 2: you know, everything leading up to everything that happened in Italy, 603 00:37:45,756 --> 00:37:48,876 Speaker 2: I lived very charmed but naive life. I was, you know, 604 00:37:49,036 --> 00:37:52,956 Speaker 2: very sheltered, and you know, had a very limited perspective 605 00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:55,116 Speaker 2: on things. I thought that only bad people went to 606 00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:58,516 Speaker 2: prison and that I never had to think about those issues. 607 00:37:58,596 --> 00:38:01,916 Speaker 2: But I also think, wow, you know, would I be 608 00:38:02,836 --> 00:38:04,876 Speaker 2: would I be a good you know, would I be 609 00:38:04,916 --> 00:38:08,356 Speaker 2: a good person if I hadn't gone through something so terrible, 610 00:38:08,396 --> 00:38:10,596 Speaker 2: Because nothing that had ever happened to me up to 611 00:38:10,636 --> 00:38:13,356 Speaker 2: that point, and I sort of took for granted that 612 00:38:13,756 --> 00:38:16,236 Speaker 2: I would just be able to have the life that 613 00:38:16,276 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 2: I wanted in a family and a career without you know, 614 00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:22,556 Speaker 2: any problems. Today, I feel like I have a perspective 615 00:38:22,636 --> 00:38:27,996 Speaker 2: that I having lived kind of with the lowest possible 616 00:38:28,076 --> 00:38:33,076 Speaker 2: hopes and then being able to like take that perspective 617 00:38:33,436 --> 00:38:36,796 Speaker 2: and try to give voice to an experience that doesn't 618 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:40,396 Speaker 2: often have a have a voice, and try to like 619 00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:45,916 Speaker 2: make those connections between other people suffering and overwhelming experiences 620 00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:49,476 Speaker 2: and others, because I think there is this this false 621 00:38:49,556 --> 00:38:51,796 Speaker 2: idea that people can't relate to each other if they 622 00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:54,676 Speaker 2: don't have the same experiences and it's like, no, we can. 623 00:38:55,156 --> 00:38:58,236 Speaker 2: We can do that empathy work. We can understand how 624 00:38:58,236 --> 00:39:01,476 Speaker 2: the mind works when it reacts to traumatic experiences. We 625 00:39:01,516 --> 00:39:04,036 Speaker 2: can share that with each other, and we only get 626 00:39:04,076 --> 00:39:09,556 Speaker 2: better for it. I feel like weirdly better for that experience, 627 00:39:10,036 --> 00:39:12,916 Speaker 2: even if I would never wish it upon my worst enemy. 628 00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:17,716 Speaker 1: That's profound. I mean, yeah, look, I think again, maybe 629 00:39:17,716 --> 00:39:20,556 Speaker 1: this is just the part of my mind that studies 630 00:39:20,596 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 1: human behavior for a living, but I feel like there 631 00:39:23,356 --> 00:39:26,796 Speaker 1: are so many common threads in psychology that absolutely transcend 632 00:39:26,836 --> 00:39:29,556 Speaker 1: the specifics of an experience. In fact, that's one of 633 00:39:29,596 --> 00:39:31,996 Speaker 1: the reasons I built this show is to show that, 634 00:39:32,076 --> 00:39:34,716 Speaker 1: you know, the cancer patient in the throes of a 635 00:39:34,716 --> 00:39:37,156 Speaker 1: stage four diagnosis might have more in common with you 636 00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:41,116 Speaker 1: when it comes to psychology than someone who had experience 637 00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:44,076 Speaker 1: that in terms of content rivaled yours, right, And so 638 00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:47,396 Speaker 1: it is all about finding those commonalities. Yeah, I know 639 00:39:47,476 --> 00:39:50,236 Speaker 1: that in present day you're actively involved in something called 640 00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:54,396 Speaker 1: the innocence network, which supports the wrongfully incarcerated, and that 641 00:39:54,476 --> 00:39:56,956 Speaker 1: you have been warmly welcomed into their family. 642 00:39:57,996 --> 00:40:01,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I came home, one of the things 643 00:40:01,276 --> 00:40:02,956 Speaker 2: when I came home from Italy, one of the things 644 00:40:02,996 --> 00:40:06,396 Speaker 2: that I had sort of resigned myself to was this 645 00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:09,556 Speaker 2: idea that I was very alone in my experience, and 646 00:40:09,596 --> 00:40:12,916 Speaker 2: I was isolating. I was isolating in a big way, 647 00:40:13,716 --> 00:40:16,236 Speaker 2: and my mom was worried about me. She was really 648 00:40:16,276 --> 00:40:19,956 Speaker 2: worried about me. I kept doing prison things like washing 649 00:40:19,956 --> 00:40:23,116 Speaker 2: my underwear in the sink and generally just kind of 650 00:40:23,116 --> 00:40:26,916 Speaker 2: being a loner. And she was reached out to by 651 00:40:27,036 --> 00:40:30,436 Speaker 2: the director of the Idaho Innocence Project, who said, Hey, 652 00:40:30,596 --> 00:40:34,076 Speaker 2: just so you know, there's this whole world of people 653 00:40:34,156 --> 00:40:37,196 Speaker 2: who work to overturn wrongful convictions here in the United 654 00:40:37,236 --> 00:40:40,516 Speaker 2: States based off the Innocence Project. We all get together 655 00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:43,836 Speaker 2: once a year at this conference. You need to bring Amanda, 656 00:40:44,476 --> 00:40:46,596 Speaker 2: and of course my mom brings us to me. And 657 00:40:46,676 --> 00:40:48,596 Speaker 2: the last thing that I want to do in the 658 00:40:48,596 --> 00:40:51,116 Speaker 2: world is walk into a room full of hundreds of 659 00:40:51,156 --> 00:40:53,956 Speaker 2: strangers who are going to recognize me, Like that is 660 00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:59,196 Speaker 2: my worst nightmare scenario. And I was still actually convicted 661 00:40:59,236 --> 00:41:02,476 Speaker 2: at the time. I had just been reconvicted, and I 662 00:41:02,556 --> 00:41:05,396 Speaker 2: was doing all those like facing extradition, what if I 663 00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:07,716 Speaker 2: have to turn myself in kind of things. That's the 664 00:41:07,716 --> 00:41:10,676 Speaker 2: world I was living in when I walked into that 665 00:41:10,876 --> 00:41:14,996 Speaker 2: basement conference room with the bad lighting and the bad 666 00:41:15,276 --> 00:41:20,636 Speaker 2: carpet in Portland, Oregon, and I walked into a room. 667 00:41:21,116 --> 00:41:23,676 Speaker 2: My mom sort of pushed me into the room, and 668 00:41:23,716 --> 00:41:27,876 Speaker 2: these two guys immediately ran up to me and hugged 669 00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:31,316 Speaker 2: me and said, you don't have to explain a thing, 670 00:41:31,596 --> 00:41:36,556 Speaker 2: little sister. We know. And it's like they knew, they 671 00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:40,196 Speaker 2: knew what I was most scared of walking into that room, 672 00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:42,476 Speaker 2: that I was going to be recognized and have to 673 00:41:42,516 --> 00:41:47,236 Speaker 2: explain myself and be judged. And I was introduced to 674 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:50,956 Speaker 2: a not just a community, but a family of people 675 00:41:51,356 --> 00:41:56,556 Speaker 2: who understood and cared even though they didn't know me. 676 00:41:57,476 --> 00:42:00,796 Speaker 2: And what they did for me, and that moment, these 677 00:42:00,796 --> 00:42:02,756 Speaker 2: two men who had each spent over a decade in 678 00:42:02,756 --> 00:42:05,676 Speaker 2: prison for crimes so they didn't commit I could probably 679 00:42:05,716 --> 00:42:09,076 Speaker 2: do for someone else too. And that world has introduced 680 00:42:09,236 --> 00:42:12,156 Speaker 2: me to some amazing people doing amazing work. And I 681 00:42:12,236 --> 00:42:15,196 Speaker 2: try to bring light to that work and shed light 682 00:42:15,236 --> 00:42:20,316 Speaker 2: on people's cases and the issues that get people wrongly convicted. 683 00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:24,756 Speaker 2: Those are all things that we all can totally understand 684 00:42:25,436 --> 00:42:29,636 Speaker 2: and totally fix. It is absolutely within our power and 685 00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:32,116 Speaker 2: is so worth it. 686 00:42:51,876 --> 00:42:56,356 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Next week Amanda returns 687 00:42:56,396 --> 00:42:58,476 Speaker 1: to the show for one of the most moving and 688 00:42:58,516 --> 00:43:02,236 Speaker 1: profound conversations I've ever had. We spoke about what it 689 00:43:02,316 --> 00:43:04,716 Speaker 1: was like to confront the man who helped put her 690 00:43:04,836 --> 00:43:05,636 Speaker 1: behind bars. 691 00:43:06,316 --> 00:43:11,156 Speaker 2: I wanted to understand why, why did this happen to me? 692 00:43:11,796 --> 00:43:16,076 Speaker 2: And I realized that the only way to truly understand 693 00:43:17,356 --> 00:43:18,796 Speaker 2: was to ask him. 694 00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:31,756 Speaker 1: That's coming up on A Slight Change of Plans. A 695 00:43:31,796 --> 00:43:35,316 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 696 00:43:35,316 --> 00:43:38,716 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our 697 00:43:38,716 --> 00:43:43,396 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 698 00:43:43,436 --> 00:43:47,516 Speaker 1: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engineer 699 00:43:47,676 --> 00:43:51,596 Speaker 1: Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and 700 00:43:51,676 --> 00:43:54,836 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 701 00:43:54,836 --> 00:43:58,276 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 702 00:43:58,316 --> 00:44:01,756 Speaker 1: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 703 00:44:01,796 --> 00:44:04,396 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of 704 00:44:04,436 --> 00:44:08,076 Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week. 705 00:44:12,156 --> 00:44:32,396 Speaker 1: The The The