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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I have a big announcement, big

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Speaker 1: ish announcement. I'm sure you'll be excited to hear about

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Speaker 1: the show that you and I really connected on. The

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Speaker 1: inspiration for Buried Bones is back. Wicked Words is back.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, tenfold more. Wicked has concluded after twelve seasons.

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Speaker 1: It's such a wonderful show, but it was really time

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Speaker 1: to retire it so I could concentrate more on Wicked

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Speaker 1: Words and Buried Bones. And so with Wicked Words coming back,

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Speaker 1: it's just really nice and fresh, and it's filled with

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Speaker 1: loads of interviews with different writers and producers, so it's

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Speaker 1: exciting for me that it's back finally.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how you were able to keep

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Speaker 2: up with all the various different podcasts and projects that

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Speaker 2: you have. Same Now that you can focus in on

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Speaker 2: Wicked Words, I bet that will be awesome and such

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Speaker 2: a relief to just try to you know, hone in

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Speaker 2: and get all the interviews done that you do. And

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Speaker 2: I have fond memories of that time that you interviewed me.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. Tinfold More Wicked was my first.

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Speaker 1: It was my gateway drug to get into podcasting because

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Speaker 1: that was so much my background was documentary audio and

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Speaker 1: fusing the two. It was great to be able to

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Speaker 1: do six episodes into a deep dive into a story.

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Speaker 1: But I also love a show like Wicked Words and

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Speaker 1: of course Buried Bones where I can talk to a writer,

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Speaker 1: an author, a filmmaker, a podcaster about one story, all

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Speaker 1: contained and kind of get a really good overview and

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Speaker 1: ask some questions. So it's just totally different types of shows.

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Speaker 1: But Tinfold was really you know, I put so much

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Speaker 1: of my heart and everything into it, and as I

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Speaker 1: started adding on other projects, it just became too much

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Speaker 1: for me to do. It's still going to be available

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Speaker 1: in the feed, in the tinfold more Wicked and Wicked

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Speaker 1: Words feed, so you'll still be able to listen to

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Speaker 1: past seasons, but it was time to say goodbye and

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Speaker 1: really time to expand on Wicked Words and Buried Bones

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Speaker 1: and be able to really pay attention to those two shows.

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Speaker 1: So I'm grateful for tenfold, but grateful to also be

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Speaker 1: able to pivot with exactly right on the other two shows.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, so you're going to be more focused on

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Speaker 2: Buried Bones, which means I'm going to be having more

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Speaker 2: work listening to the stories.

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Speaker 1: Right, get ready, buddy, get ready thought if you thought

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Speaker 1: you were overloaded, now just wait. Yeah. I mean I

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Speaker 1: love this type of show. I love kind of being

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Speaker 1: able to sample true crime. And what's great about Wicked

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Speaker 1: Words actually is that I have contemporary crimes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've already interviewed people about the Alec Murdall case, and

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Speaker 1: so that is not restricted to the eighteen hundreds of

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds or even further back. I interview

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Speaker 1: people from all different kinds of backgrounds covering all different

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Speaker 1: kinds of cases in all different time periods. So it's

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Speaker 1: exciting for it to be back. People really respond well

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Speaker 1: to it, and so I'm happy to have it back.

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Speaker 1: But I'm also happy to be here with you on

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Speaker 1: Buried Bones because we're going to be diving into basically

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirties and eighteen forties New York, which is such

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Speaker 1: a great time period and a big old mystery for you.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you've read up on this time period

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Speaker 1: very much.

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Speaker 2: Nope, not at all. So I'm sure you're going to

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Speaker 2: have a surprise or two for me as we get going.

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Speaker 1: I think so, I think, so okay, So let's head

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Speaker 1: down to New York. Let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: This is a significant case in history, Paul, and it's

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Speaker 1: a case I had heard of before, and a book

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Speaker 1: has been written about it which we use as a reference,

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Speaker 1: and it was a really good book called The Beautiful

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Speaker 1: Cigar Girl. So this is a story that probably some

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Speaker 1: of our listeners have heard. If you're a true crime

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Speaker 1: history geek, you've probably heard of the story of Mary Rogers.

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Speaker 1: This is a two parter. I know you're going to

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Speaker 1: ask me pretty quickly about injuries and wounds and all

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Speaker 1: of that. I have a lot of information there too, thankfully. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to warn you this is a story.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who have heard this story before,

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Speaker 1: there is misinformation everywhere all over the place throughout history.

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Speaker 1: The story of Mary Rogers has had things added to

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Speaker 1: it that have been fictionalized. And so our goal really

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Speaker 1: is to tease out the truth, as always with these stories,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to concentrate on some pretty specific thing.

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Speaker 1: So I can't wait to hear your reaction to this story.

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Speaker 1: It'll be interesting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, let's get this, get this party going then.

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Speaker 1: All right, So the main character we have here is

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Speaker 1: Mary Rogers. This is going to be our victim. She

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Speaker 1: has a complicated life. Boy, I feel like I say

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Speaker 1: that phrase a lot. Do I say that? Do I

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Speaker 1: need to find a new phrase to say rather than

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Speaker 1: this victim has had a complicated life? Or is that

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Speaker 1: pretty clear to you? No?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it's just it really underscores everybody's

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Speaker 2: life is compos But now some of these complexities don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily lead into the person becoming a victim, whereas other

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Speaker 2: complexities do you know, so when I'm hearing you say

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Speaker 2: that Mary had a complicated life. Sounds like there's going

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Speaker 2: to be some victimology that I'm going to want to

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Speaker 2: learn about.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and hopefully I have enough information to sustain you here.

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Speaker 1: I always feel like, man, I wish I can offer

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Speaker 1: more and more and more, and sometimes we have plenty.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, it's interesting because there is a

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Speaker 1: lot of mystery here. It is officially unsolved. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: so see you guys can't see this. He completely perked up,

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Speaker 1: his shoulders actually went back. You got a big smile

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Speaker 1: on your face. So that's good. I wish I could now.

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Speaker 1: I know I need more of these unsolved cases.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know that's that's always been my wheelhouse, is

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Speaker 2: to find the unsolved, because I kind of like to

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Speaker 2: roll my sleeves up and think, well, I can at

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Speaker 2: least possibly either solve a case if I'm actively working it,

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Speaker 2: or advance the case. Always feel that if I dig

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Speaker 2: into an unsolved case, I will leave it better off

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Speaker 2: than before I started it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we'll start from her birth. So her name is

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Speaker 1: Mary Cecilia Rogers. She was born in eighteen twenty in Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: She comes from two different prominent New England families, but

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Speaker 1: she loses several of her older siblings as well as

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Speaker 1: her father when she's very young. I've written about many

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Speaker 1: women in this situation too. They come from wealthy families

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Speaker 1: and then a lot of people die around them, and

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Speaker 1: then they're not given the financial support. Oftentimes, the men

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Speaker 1: in the family, even men who are not directly involved

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Speaker 1: in the family but are just part of the family,

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Speaker 1: are given the purse strings, and so the women are

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Speaker 1: left to be given money doled out. And if you

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Speaker 1: have a jerk for a great uncle, you might not

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Speaker 1: get the same opportunities. And so we will sometimes find

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Speaker 1: in history women who come from wealthier families who are

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Speaker 1: left nearly destitute when they lose the patriarch of the family,

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Speaker 1: which is such a sad situation, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that in terms of

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Speaker 2: you know, that's a part of the culture in the

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Speaker 2: past that I can see were somebody who you would think,

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Speaker 2: because of maybe the family affluence, you know, they would

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Speaker 2: have a stable life, and yet due to these circumstances

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Speaker 2: beyond their control, sounds like some of them can end

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Speaker 2: up quite destitute.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting I really started reading about that

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Speaker 1: situation in society in the eighteen hundreds with the very

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Speaker 1: first tenfold more wicked about Edward Ruloff. A little part

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Speaker 1: of his history, you know, my genius killer was that

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Speaker 1: he came from a middle class farming family in Canada,

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Speaker 1: and when his father died, his uncle was the one

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Speaker 1: who controlled the money, not his mother, who was still alive.

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Speaker 1: His mother wanted him to go to college and his

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Speaker 1: uncle's said, no, you're going to go to it like

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Speaker 1: a trade school. You're going to go a prentice somewhere.

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Speaker 1: And Edward Ruloff really wanted to be an academic, and

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Speaker 1: his uncle said, sorry, you can go be a printmaker

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Speaker 1: or do something else. He didn't think it was practical,

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Speaker 1: and he was the one in charge. The father did

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Speaker 1: not leave the money to his wife. He left it

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Speaker 1: to his I think it was his brother, or maybe

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Speaker 1: his great uncle or his own uncle himself. So that's

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Speaker 1: when I really started thinking about, you know, women in

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Speaker 1: their position in the eighteen hundreds with money. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: always the case, but sounds like this was the case

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Speaker 1: in Mary Rogers family when that happened. So this death

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Speaker 1: of the father, Mary's father and several older siblings, leaves

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Speaker 1: Mary and her mother, whose name is Phoebe, on their own,

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Speaker 1: and Phoebe becomes the sole provider, and this sort of

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Speaker 1: ushers in an interesting time period for the family. There

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Speaker 1: are some tough economic times in the thirties eighteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: and Phoebe and Mary need to head to New York

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Speaker 1: for work and Mary he is now a teenager. This

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Speaker 1: is an explosive time in New York. I've written about this.

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Speaker 1: Before population comes, there's some immigration, New York becomes known

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Speaker 1: as an economic hotspot, and that's why the Rogers family

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Speaker 1: goes there. And the issue is that plays a little

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Speaker 1: bit into this story is that, you know, New York,

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Speaker 1: not surprisingly, has come to attract a lot of criminal

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Speaker 1: and gang activity. So you've got, I'm presuming a young mother,

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Speaker 1: I don't actually know Phoebe's age, a young mother coupled

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Speaker 1: with her teenage daughter who were moving into a city,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't sound like they have a lot of

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Speaker 1: financial resources, and you know, this becomes a dangerous situation

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Speaker 1: for them. And already I'm feeling like Mary is sort

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Speaker 1: of a ready made victim for people in this city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean if they're lacking some financial resources.

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Speaker 2: You know, what kind of neighborhood do they move into?

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Speaker 2: What kind of residence do they move into? As it

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Speaker 2: like a multi family type of dwelling.

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Speaker 1: So what ends up happening is they go to downtown Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: which I'm telling you, Paul, I mean I studied downtown

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Speaker 1: Manhattan in this time period because that's when Edward Rulolph

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Speaker 1: lived down there. I mean he kind of went back

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Speaker 1: and forth between upstate New York and Manhattan. But there

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Speaker 1: could be brothels, there could be taverns, there could be townhouses.

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Speaker 1: It just depended on literally on the block. So Phoebe

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Speaker 1: decides to get a job. She successfully gets a job

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Speaker 1: as a domestic servant, and then she operates a boarding

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Speaker 1: house in downtown Manhattan when Mary is a teenager. This

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Speaker 1: boarding house turns out to be what makes Mary's life

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Speaker 1: complicated because she's exposed to a lot of different people,

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Speaker 1: young men who she gets involved with. And this turns

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Speaker 1: into a little bit of a Melrose Place situation where

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of people living in a close

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Speaker 1: proximity and it creates some drama. But I'll get a

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Speaker 1: little bit more into that. I just want to place

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Speaker 1: this in your mind, that she turns out to be

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Speaker 1: a very attractive I mean, like the papers go on

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Speaker 1: and on about how attractive this woman is, young woman.

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Speaker 1: And when the story really kicks in is when she's

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Speaker 1: twenty one as a young woman, and she attracts a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention in this boarding house because it's mostly

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Speaker 1: male lodgers, and all of a sudden, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: become a little bit alarmed for Mary. It's certainly her mother,

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Speaker 1: but really Mary, because I think she's getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of attention and it might not all be wanted attention.

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Speaker 2: I think about this. So you have I imagine a fairly

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Speaker 2: transient population of borders that are constantly coming and going.

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Speaker 2: This is in the eighteen thirties. It's not like background

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Speaker 2: checks are being done on these guys. I'm sure there

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Speaker 2: are some bad individuals that were inside this boarding house,

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Speaker 2: and there, of course are seeing this young girl, attractive girl.

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Speaker 2: You know, of course, alarm bells are going off. In

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Speaker 2: terms of knowing Mary ultimately becomes a victim. Is there

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Speaker 2: a suspect pool from withinside this this boarding house without

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Speaker 2: no knowing anything about what happened to Mary, It just

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Speaker 2: does indicate that where she's living nothing that she's done,

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Speaker 2: but it elevates her risk because of who is flowing

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Speaker 2: through this dwelling.

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Speaker 1: I agree, and she becomes even more exposed in a

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Speaker 1: second and to me in kind of an alarming way.

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Speaker 1: So you know, remember, this is a woman who's been

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Speaker 1: described as I'll just tell you, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: a gross description from the historical crime Detective, which is

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Speaker 1: describing her as rather tall, exquisitely symmetrical form. Her features

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Speaker 1: were regular, her complexion was beautiful, and she had a

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Speaker 1: wealth of jet black hair. So she stands in start

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Speaker 1: contrast to I guess what she would say would be

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Speaker 1: the average woman in downtown New York at the time,

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Speaker 1: who would have been probably lower class, maybe middle class,

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Speaker 1: and she really stands apart. She's also happens to be

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Speaker 1: very charming, and she seems to be quite bright, and

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Speaker 1: her per personality, which is vivacious, really has drawn the

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Speaker 1: attention you'll find out in a minute from the media

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Speaker 1: in downtown Manhattan who post about her social comings and goings.

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Speaker 1: You know, the penny presses in the eighteen hundreds really

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Speaker 1: like to talk about society people who I would not

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Speaker 1: consider Mary Rogers a society type person when she's just

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Speaker 1: you know, in a boarding house with her mother, trying

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Speaker 1: to tend to things. But because she was so attractive

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Speaker 1: and sort of woman about town in this part of town,

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00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 1: people would write about her, you know, what she was

260
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 1: doing socially, where she was going, but all the time

261
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 1: referred to as beautiful before her name, Beautiful Mary Rogers,

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Speaker 1: Beautiful Mary Rogers. So that's where we stand.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like she has a level of celebrity.

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Speaker 2: She does even though she's not, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: entertainment world. She's not in government affairs. It's just because

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Speaker 2: of how she looks.

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Speaker 1: Yep, wow, I know. And now we're going to get

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Speaker 1: to a situation where she's more exposed to the public.

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Speaker 1: So there is just a little quick reference here. We

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Speaker 1: have a book, probably the most well known book, called

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Speaker 1: The Beautiful Cigar Girl, and it's by an author named

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Speaker 1: Daniel Strashouer. And I'll point out when we use some

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Speaker 1: of his information because he has some really good historical

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Speaker 1: documents that he worked off of. Here's where things start

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Speaker 1: to turn a little bit, I think for Mary in

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Speaker 1: the late nineteen thirties. So this is probably when she

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Speaker 1: is nineteen maybe twenty. There is a well connected businessman

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Speaker 1: whose name is John Anderson, and he sees Mary and

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Speaker 1: he comes to her with an offer. He is a

280
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Speaker 1: business owner of a large downtown tobacco store, and he's

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Speaker 1: known you know, Phoebe for several years and has gotten

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Speaker 1: to know Mary. And we think that at one point

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Speaker 1: Phoebe maybe was a domestic worker in John's house. This

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Speaker 1: is what the author Daniel Stashouer thinks. It doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 1: What matters is that the owner of this tobacco store

286
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Speaker 1: goes to Mary and says, can you be a clerk

287
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Speaker 1: in my shop? The speculation is maybe this is romantic,

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Speaker 1: like he wants to be closer to her. But I

289
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,680
Speaker 1: think the local newspapers eventually come to the conclusion that

290
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: she is going to attract male clientele to this shop

291
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Speaker 1: just by having her behind the counter. Men are going

292
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 1: to want to come and solicit, you know, to give

293
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: business to this man. And that's what happens. It works.

294
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 1: She attracts a lot of customers to this store.

295
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Speaker 2: Men are so simple. I mean, seriously, she's not even

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00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 2: walking advertisement for the tobacco store. She is just kind

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00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 2: of advertisement herself. And these men are drawn to her

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Speaker 2: like a magnet. Now they're in the tobacco store and

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00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 2: on if they want to interact with her, they're having

300
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Speaker 2: to buy the products and going up to this clerk,

301
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 2: you know. And Okay, so we've got the boarding house

302
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 2: transient population. Now there's also the tobacco shop, which in

303
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 2: some ways that's transient with the customers. But I'm sure

304
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: there's regular customers and probably even more regular customers who

305
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,000
Speaker 2: are going to this store because Mary is inside.

306
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Speaker 1: You got it, you nailed it. So now at home,

307
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 1: when she's asleep, she's exposed to a lot of people,

308
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 1: and then at work she's exposed to a lot of people.

309
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 1: So here's the interesting thing about John Anderson's tobacco shop.

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Speaker 1: He is so close to City Hall that there are

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00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 1: all sorts of powerful people who come in there looking

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Speaker 1: for Mary and cigars. So we're talking about reporters and editors,

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Speaker 1: but also there are clients who become really legendary authors,

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Speaker 1: Washington Irving and Edgar Allen Poe. Have you read either

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Speaker 1: of these? I've read both, But have you read either

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00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,439
Speaker 1: of these? I don't want you to feel silly. I

317
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: could always you read you.

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Speaker 2: Know, well, I of course am familiar with Edgar Allan Poe. Now,

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00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,160
Speaker 2: a little bit of a confession is that, going through school,

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00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, English classes, was assigned all sorts of classic

321
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 2: books to read. Right, did I read them? No?

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Speaker 1: No?

323
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: I bs my way with whatever paper I had to

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00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 2: write as a result, you know, because I just got

325
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 2: so bored. I kind of deal with these these classic novels.

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Speaker 2: But at least one of those authors I at least

327
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 2: have heard of.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, Washington Irving. I know you have heard his

329
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 1: stories because he was the one who wrote the legend

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Speaker 1: of Sleepy Hollow Headless Horseman. Yes, now, Washington Irving also

331
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 1: wrote about someone I know you've heard of, Rip van Winkle.

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Speaker 1: That was his story. Also the man who falls asleep

333
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,200
Speaker 1: and I don't remember how many years later he wakes

334
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: up and everything's changed and he's old.

335
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely have some memory of Rip van Winkle.

336
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Speaker 2: But again, you know, the details escape me.

337
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,719
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you Edgar Allan Poe makes Mary Rogers legendary.

338
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily what happens to her, it's that he

339
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: turns her story into one of his most famous stories.

340
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 1: And i'll tell you about that in a little bit.

341
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: But the big deal is you've got Washington, Flippin' Irving

342
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 1: and Edgar Allan Poe coming by this shop, and you've

343
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 1: got politicians, you've got reporters and editors. And this is

344
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 1: where really the Society pages comes in because you've got

345
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: these reporters and editors coming in from city Hall. They

346
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 1: see this beautiful girl. She's very charming and they kind

347
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 1: of want to keep up with her. This creates a

348
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 1: huge boom and business for the tobacco shop. So John

349
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 1: Anderson's very pleased. Now this is where Mary's life gets

350
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: a little complicated. It sounds by her own choice here.

351
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: So you know, the Penny papers, as they were called,

352
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 1: follow Mary. Penny papers were sort of like tabloids. I

353
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: guess they would say that with the tabloids for today,

354
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: different than the Penny Dreadfuls which were in England, and

355
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 1: those were sort of really torrid crime stories. Penny Papers were,

356
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, like tabloids, and they looked like tabloid papers.

357
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 1: And Mary is sort of gossiped about, but in a

358
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: respectful way. They just people are enamored with her. So

359
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: Mary gets paid a decent paycheck, which she's very excited about.

360
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: We have countless businessmen stopping by to gauck at Mary.

361
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: People are writing poems about her. The press is covering her,

362
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 1: and she's really not doing anything significant except being attractive

363
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 1: and being charming and standing behind the counter at this

364
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: tobacco shop. Things change because within a few months of

365
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 1: starting this new job, Mary vanishes, and the reporters who

366
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: came to the shop noticed, of course they're coming to

367
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: the shop for her. They notice that she's gone, and

368
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: because they're reporters, they start speculating. And the stories about

369
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: where Mary, Mary Rogers, the beautiful cigar girl, has gone,

370
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 1: start popping up in the penny papers. And you know,

371
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 1: it's really hard to separate fact from speculation. Newspaper reporters

372
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 1: do that. Sometimes they speculate. And there was one paper

373
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: that reported that Mary's mother had found a suicide note

374
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: on the day that Mary went missing from the tobacco shop,

375
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: and there were other papers that said she ran off

376
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: with various male suitors. Now, before you start digging into this,

377
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: I will tell you. She comes back a few days

378
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,439
Speaker 1: later and she says, listen, I can take off whenever

379
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 1: I want to take off. I don't have to answer

380
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: anybody's questions. But she said, I went to go visit

381
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: some family members. It was innocuous, it was no big deal.

382
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: And her mother, Phoebe, and her boss John Anderson back

383
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: up the story. But the Penny Papers kind of stay

384
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: on it, and they keep saying Mary disappeared and it

385
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 1: was all a publicity stunt to benefit the cigar store.

386
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: And you know, this seems sort of disturbing. But the

387
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: reason I'm telling you this is one, she sounds like

388
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: we'll go off the radar for at least a few

389
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 1: days at a time. But it also sounds like she

390
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: told her mom and her boss where she was going.

391
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: And number two, this is how focused the papers are

392
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: is they are gossiping about a young woman who is

393
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: standing behind the counter of a tobacco shop. So all

394
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: of this is building up to how important Mary Rogers

395
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: is to people in downtown Manhattan in the late eighteen thirties.

396
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is such a bizarre set of circumstances. Do

397
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 2: you have any understanding if Mary actually enjoyed this notoriety

398
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 2: and this attention or I can see where maybe early

399
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: on she's enjoying it, but then as her life is

400
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: being impacted, it may be something that she no longer

401
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: wants that type of attention, you know, so I'm kind

402
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 2: of curious, you know, as I'm assessing Mary and maybe

403
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: who she ends up interacting with over time, you know

404
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: what her vulnerabilities are.

405
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought that up. I don't think

406
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: she likes the attention because she ends up quitting the

407
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: job within a year of all of this happening. People

408
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: reporting on her, reporters following her around. Now, these reporters

409
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: wanting to know who were you with, what were you doing?

410
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 1: Of course, we know in the eighteen thirties, being with

411
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: a man and not being married and spending the night

412
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: with somebody would have been a huge no no, and

413
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: certainly they would have been judgmental of her in the papers.

414
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: This is a young woman who was exposed to a

415
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 1: celebrity life without the benefit of the money and the power.

416
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, they are just gossiping about her,

417
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: and she got tired of it, and she quit Johnny

418
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: Anderson's shop, and it sounds like just went back to

419
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: helping her mom at the boarding house. She always lived

420
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: at the boarding house. And now we're going to talk

421
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: about the social life of the boarding house, which is

422
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: I will use the word robust to explain the social life.

423
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: And so that's where we stand. She said, I've had enough,

424
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: I quit, and she goes back to the boarding house

425
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: and helping her mom out there.

426
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does inform me a lot about Mary's personality.

427
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: She with all these politicians and other higher social status

428
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: individuals in the area because of you know, her notoriety,

429
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 2: her attractiveness. She possibly could have linked up with some

430
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: man that has high social status and still enjoy, you know,

431
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: take advantage of that man's affluence his own social life.

432
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: And she doesn't do that. You know. She stays as

433
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: a clerk at the tobacco store and then ultimately goes

434
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: back to mom and the boarding house. So she is

435
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: definitely kind of shunning that high profile life, is the

436
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: way I'm seeing it.

437
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you what's interesting about Mary your spot on.

438
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: No one says she's ever dated any of these people

439
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: from the cigar shop. She is not dating, you know,

440
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: Edgar Allen Poe Washington, Irving, any of these wealthy businessmen,

441
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: not even secretly having affairs with because I think those

442
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: would have been exposed after what happens happens. She is, however,

443
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: dating people who are lodgers at the boarding house. And

444
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: these are not wealthy men. These are not prominent men.

445
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: They do not have jobs that most people would think

446
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: these days were very prominent jobs. But they seem steady.

447
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: But she was involved with it looks like off and

448
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: on at least three different lodgers, a couple of them,

449
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: while they're living in the same boarding house at the

450
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: same time. So now things get dicey. I think once

451
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: we learn about this social life.

452
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: Here, well, yeah, these three different lodgers, and if they're

453
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: aware of each other, now you set up this almost

454
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: this lover's triangle, even though she may not be dating

455
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 2: them at the same time. It's human nature to be

456
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: jealous of your ex being with somebody else. And so

457
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: now you have these men who both had dated Mary,

458
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: as the way I'm hearing this, living in the same

459
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: boarding house where Mary is working. So this ends up

460
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: elevating the kind of the emotional backdrop to this boarding

461
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: house and what Mary is being confronted with on a

462
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: daily basis.

463
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: I agree, and we're going to get to talking about

464
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: three men. One is a non starter as far as

465
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. He's a sailor named William Kaikuk and he

466
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: kind of comes in and out and it sounds like

467
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: her mother. Phoebe says she dated William, but that was

468
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: the end of it and he hit the road. So

469
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: we've got this one man who doesn't really seem to

470
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: be involved. But we are going to have to focus

471
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: in on two people who are in the boarding house

472
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: at the same time, but they have kind of two

473
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: different types of relationships with Mary. One is a man

474
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: named Alfred Krommelin, and the author Daniel Stashauer thinks that

475
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: Alfred would have been a clerk in a law office

476
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: at some point. And then there's a guy named Daniel Payne.

477
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: Daniel is a tenant in the boarding house and he

478
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: earns a living. This is interesting, Paul, I could see

479
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: you doing this. He earns a living cutting cork for

480
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: bottles and jugs. This is a good job. It sounds

481
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: like fun to me. I like kind of like mindless

482
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: jobs where the only thing you have to worry about

483
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 1: is cutting a finger off. I like that, like that

484
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: kind of gig.

485
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: And somehow you're putting that job on me.

486
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: Why I just pictured you being able to do that

487
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds cutting cork. It sounds relaxing

488
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: to me, but maybe.

489
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: I'm glad you have such a high opinion of it.

490
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: Well, these are the two men who are vying for

491
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: her attention, and it sounds like she's really enamored with

492
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: Daniel Payne. The problem with Daniel Payne is, even though

493
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: people say he is charming and clearly Mary likes him,

494
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: he is jovial, it sounds like he is a heavy

495
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: drinker and has been sort of described as a full

496
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: blown alcoholic. And I had wondered immediately because, as I've

497
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: already told you, something happens to Mary and it's a mystery.

498
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: And I wonder if Daniel gets jealous, because not even

499
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: if she's sleeping with other people, but she's so attractive

500
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: and she gets so much attention from men who she

501
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: doesn't even seem to beat an ee at that any

502
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: man who is an alcoholic, who's obviously dealing with something

503
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: using alcohol, if this is somebody who would be jealous

504
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: no matter how she reacts to men.

505
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: So I'm not necessarily going to correlate Daniel's alcoholism directly

506
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 2: with jealousy. But what I would correlate is we know

507
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: that under the influence of alcohol, behaviors change. And so

508
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: just depending on how this story develops, it is a

509
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: characteristic of Daniel that I'll pay attention to, even though

510
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: maybe witnesses or friends coworkers will vouch for his character.

511
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: But what is his character under the influence after a

512
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: long night of drinking. Is it possible that he could

513
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: act out in a certain way, be upset about something

514
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: that normally his inhibitions would prevent him from acting out

515
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: that way.

516
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: So just noted well, and here we'll have a little

517
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: bit of profiling. I don't know if that's what you'll

518
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: call it that, but I'm going to give you a scenario,

519
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: and you can tell me about both of these men

520
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: in their reactions. It doesn't really involve Mary's reaction as

521
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. So she's dated the sailor, he's gone.

522
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: She's dated Alfred, who is a law clerk in an office,

523
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: and she is really interested in Daniel. So the people

524
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: left in the boarding house who she's been involved with

525
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: are Alfred and Daniel. Mary is now twenty one and

526
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: we're in eighteen forty one, and this is where everything

527
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: starts to happen. So the situation in the household is

528
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: complicated because you have two men who are very interested

529
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: in her, and she is only interested at this point

530
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: in one in Daniel Daniel Stashouer writes in his book,

531
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: and I just want to quote this because I think

532
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: he does a good job really summarizing it. By June

533
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: of eighteen forty one, Alfred's festering resentments, this would be

534
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: towards Daniel and Mary come to a crisis. Returning from

535
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: work one evening, Alfred found pain Daniel Payne and Mary

536
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: engaged in what Alfred said was unseemly intimacies in the

537
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: front parlor, which god knows could have been like holding hands.

538
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: I have no idea what he is describing as that,

539
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: but in the front parlor maybe they were making out.

540
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: And Alfred drew himself into an indignant rage and began

541
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: lecturing Daniel Paine on the duties and obligations of a gentleman.

542
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: Daniel Payne first responded with a grin and then a sneer,

543
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: which of course just pissed off Alfred in his tirade.

544
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: So you've got one guy who's sort of taunting because

545
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: he's got the girl and you've got the other guy

546
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: when you have this author describing it as an indignant rage,

547
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: which I'm assuming is not physical, but just ripping into

548
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: both of them.

549
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like what I said before in some ways,

550
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: this is the dynamic of this lover's triangle. Now it

551
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: looks like Mary and Daniel are together and Alfred's the

552
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: ex but Alfred is jealous and he expresses his jealousy directly.

553
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: So it indicates a certain temperament of Alfred. But right now,

554
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: you know, that's all we've got. Yeah, you know, I

555
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: can't make any predictions to me right on the surface,

556
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: Daniel knowing that something happens to Mary. Daniel doesn't have

557
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: let's say, motive at this point in time to do

558
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: anything to Mary because he's got Mary, but Alfred doesn't.

559
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: That's typically that spurned lover is the one that will

560
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: act out, you know. This is the stocking type of personality,

561
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: or this is the one that you know, if I

562
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: can't have her, you can't have her either. So let's

563
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: see how this develops.

564
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: Well, what's interesting about Alfred is he always describes Mary

565
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: Rogers as honorable and you know, a woman who would

566
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: never sleep around and just someone who you know, deserve

567
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: to be courted. He's sort of in some ways idolized her.

568
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: It sounds like later on, that's how he has been

569
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: describing her. What I noticed is that he doesn't seem

570
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: to be chastising her. It is Daniel. So I thought, well,

571
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you would think Daniel would be Alfred's focus.

572
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: If somebody ends up dead here, why not kill Daniel.

573
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: If Alfred is responsible for anybody dying, get him out

574
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: of the way, and then he could have Mary to himself.

575
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: But as we know, because of this as a very

576
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: well known case, it's Mary who ends up dead later on.

577
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah know, and that's one possible scenario. Alfred ends

578
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: up killing Daniel just because Daniel is the one that

579
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: one Mary's heart. You know. Maybe at some point Alfred

580
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: confronts Mary, expresses that he would like to have her back,

581
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: and she says, we're never getting back together. Now. Do

582
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: you have a fit of rage type of scenario where

583
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: Alfred would hurt Mary?

584
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: I had wondered. I don't have information on how long this,

585
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: whatever it was between Mary and Alfred had gone on,

586
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: And I was going to say, well, doesn't it matter.

587
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like they were together for years, and

588
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: it's described as dating. But then I sort of channeled

589
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: Paul Holes in my head and said, it doesn't matter

590
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: if it was, you know, one date. It's what's happening

591
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: in Alfred's head. Is that what you would respond to me.

592
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: It's his delusion or whatever is happening his perception.

593
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: In assessing, you know, criminal behavior, you have to look

594
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: at it from the offender's mindset. And of course the

595
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: external aspects are something we can observe, but the offender

596
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: has his own experiences, his own biases, his own motives,

597
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: and oftentimes that internal part of the offender is what

598
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: ultimately gets expressed during the violence. And that's where you're

599
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: sitting here, and you're giving me a lot of victimology

600
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: about Mary, and you know, I'm speculating about Okay, she's

601
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: got this pseudo lover's triangle set up inside of the

602
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: boarding house, which is a I'm in scenario which ultimately

603
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: ends in homicide. But I don't know anything about what

604
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: happened to Mary during the violence that's upcoming, and my

605
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: opinion may completely change going we'll hold on here. You know,

606
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure that whoever killed Mary is going

607
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: to be somebody that Mary even knew. So I'm very

608
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: interested in learning the details. Once you get to that

609
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 2: point about what happened to Mary, we'll get there.

610
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: We'll get there. Simmer down. Pepper Is my friend.

611
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: Would say, you're just teasing this out. I know.

612
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Okay. So, after this confrontation where Alfred essentially

613
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: tries to rip apart verbally Daniel with Mary standing there watching,

614
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: he says, either they kick him out or he decides

615
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: to leave. But he's out. He packs up his stuff

616
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: and he leaves. He turns to Mary and says, I

617
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: still have feelings for you that if you ever need anything,

618
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: I will be there. I am committed to you, and

619
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: this guy you're involved with is a jerk and a loser.

620
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: And then he leaves. So Alfred is gone. And this

621
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: is in June of eighteen forty one, so probably you

622
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: have no comment on the fact that he left. I

623
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: mean it takes a danger I suppose you know, a

624
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: daily danger out of the house for her right now.

625
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't even go that far. You know, Alfred

626
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: leaves the boarding house, but that doesn't mean he is

627
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: completely not capable of physically coming back into Mary's world.

628
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: You know, he's probably just moving somewhere else locally. He's

629
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: got a job, he's a law clerk, you know, so

630
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: he's probably found another residence. But that distance also gives

631
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: Alfred some safety in his mind that if he were

632
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: to commit a crime, he's not present within the boarding

633
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: house at the time. He is now separated, you know,

634
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: So there's it'll be interesting to see how this continues on,

635
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: but Alfred's not out of the picture in terms of

636
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 2: somebody that could do mar harm just because he's left

637
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: the boarding house, I think is fundamentally what I'm trying

638
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: to say.

639
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: So this happens in June. Where Alfred leaves and where

640
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: things go terribly wrong for Mary Rogers is July twenty fifth,

641
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: so you know, about a month later, eighteen forty one.

642
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: So this is during the day Mary stops by Daniel,

643
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: her boyfriend's room in the boarding house, and she says,

644
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to go see my aunt, who is a

645
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: woman named missus Downing. She says to Daniel, I'll be

646
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: at my aunt's house for that evening, and that they

647
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: can meet when she's done for the evening, so Daniel

648
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: can walk her home for safety, because remember where we are,

649
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: downtown New York. He says, I'm happy to walk you home.

650
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: I would like that, and she said that's great. So

651
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: she says, meet me at the specific intersection at this time,

652
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: and that night, when he shows up at the meeting time,

653
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: she's not there. It is pouring down rain, and Daniel

654
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: thinks that Mary decided to go ahead and stay with

655
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: her aunt until the bad weather passed. So he hangs out,

656
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure gets soaking wet, and eventually he gives up

657
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: and he leaves, and I think he's just crossing his

658
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: fingers that she's going to find her way home, or

659
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: when it clears out, maybe he'll go back to this

660
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: intersection to walk her home. She never comes home, and

661
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 1: by the next afternoon, because she is still missing, the

662
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: mother and Daniel are worried. Daniel looks all over the

663
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: city for Mary, and he goes to the aunt's house,

664
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: where she finds out that Mary never even made it there.

665
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: And to get things more complicated, the aunt says, we

666
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: never made any plans. I don't know what you're talking about.

667
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: She wasn't supposed to come over here. The next thing

668
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: we know, the mother Phoebe and Daniel place an ad

669
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: in the papers the next day saying Mary Rogers is missing,

670
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: and the papers respond, and that is that. That is

671
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: the last time we hear from Mary.

672
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: The most important part of what I'm hearing is Mary

673
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 2: is telling Daniel somebody she seems to be very much

674
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: emotionally connected to and trusting, and is actually asking him

675
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: to come meet her, to walk her home. Yet the

676
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: Aunts saying we had no plans. Why would Mary say, Hey,

677
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to my aunt's. This is where sort of

678
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: the spidery sense is starting to kick in a little

679
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: bit about what do we really know about Mary? It

680
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: almost sounds like she's using the aunt as well, this

681
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: is the reason I'm leaving, And does she have a secret?

682
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: And she was going to come back, you know, to

683
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: the intersection, so Daniel would just assume she came from

684
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: the Aunts house. You know, why doesn't Daniel go all

685
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: the way up to the Aunts house walk Mary home

686
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 2: from the Aunts house if this is such a dangerous area.

687
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: It's almost as if Mary is setting this up where Okay,

688
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: everybody thinks I'm at the Ants House, but I'm really

689
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: going to go meet this other person. And then I

690
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: will come back to the intersection and nobody will know

691
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: the better. That's what I'm reading into this right now.

692
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: Now, Paul. Sometimes I ask you questions to lead you

693
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: down a road when I know the information, and it's

694
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: a little trick. This is not the case. I am

695
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: actually asking you what you think about this, and I

696
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: don't know the answer. Okay, we're about to find out

697
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: that Mary is no longer with us. What if Daniel

698
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: is responsible, and what if he made up the aunt's story,

699
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: which is why the aunt said, I have no clue

700
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 1: why this happened, and he just made it up. Because

701
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: there is no one who can say that Mary came

702
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: to them and said, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna

703
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: meet Daniel. I'm gonna go to my aunt's house first.

704
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: The mom didn't confirm that, and there doesn't seem to

705
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: be anybody that they've dug up a witness who says, yeah,

706
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: he was standing there with an umbrella or under an

707
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: awning until whatever time. So might this not be on Mary?

708
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: Might this actually be a story that Daniel made up

709
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 1: or with that make no sense because the aunt would

710
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: immediately debunk what he was saying to begin with.

711
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 2: And I think that's where the investigation in the interviews

712
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: need to kind of tease that out, you know, in

713
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 2: terms of at this point in time, there hasn't been

714
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: anything expressed between Daniel and Mary's relationship that would indicate

715
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: that Daniel had any reason to cause her harm. Now

716
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: we don't know, you know, the personal communications and interactions

717
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: that led up to this particular night, So maybe something

718
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: changed that we don't know about. But how does Daniel

719
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: respond when he's being interviewed, and all of that is

720
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: also going to be somewhat dictated by ultimately what happened

721
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: to Mary, you know, and knowing that information and then

722
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: assessing Daniel's potential role. And I think you're bringing up

723
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: a good point. For sure, you know, Daniel is not

724
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: out of suspicion. Under the set of circumstances, he most

725
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: certainly could have made up something because he went out

726
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: and caused Mary harm, he killed her and dumped her

727
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: somewhere or hit her somewhere, and came back and had

728
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: this whole scenario setup. So there's that, But I also

729
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: have to look at it from Mary's perspective. If Daniel's

730
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: telling the truth, then it kind of informs me that

731
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: there's something going on with Mary that people don't know about.

732
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: Let's get to what happened to Mary, because it's very sad.

733
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: Three days later, which is July twenty eighth of eighteen

734
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: forty one, a woman's body is discovered floating about two

735
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: hundred yards off the Hudson River's shore, which is near Hoboken,

736
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: New Jersey. This is a very hot summer day, and

737
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: there's a recreational area nearby, and it's bustling with activity.

738
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: And so this area is very accessible from Manhattan by ferry,

739
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: which is an important note to know. This is not

740
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: some isolated place. Everybody who had been to New York

741
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: would have known about this. It doesn't take a local

742
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 1: to know about this area. Only somebody could, I guess,

743
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: catch the ferry or go on foot. But two hundred

744
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: yards off the shore, I guess I don't know about

745
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: how much floating it would do. But anyway, I guess

746
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: we'll just have to kind of unfold that. But let's

747
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about bodies being found in the water,

748
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: and already, what is the disadvantage or is there any

749
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: kind of advantage to having a body found in a

750
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: body of water?

751
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 2: A body floating, and I'm going to make the assumption

752
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: that Mary's body was put into the Hudson River the

753
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: night she disappeared, so roughly three days in the water.

754
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 2: In this day and age, with the type of physical

755
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: evidence that we would be looking for, it's obviously not good. However,

756
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: evidence can survive, and I've seen it firsthand in some

757
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: of my cases when victims' bodies have been in water

758
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: for an extended period of time, and we could still

759
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: recover DNA, but you also have the disadvantage of some

760
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: of the blood staining, some of the blood patterns that

761
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: I would use to help reconstruct the violence that happened.

762
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: Correlating that those blood patterns with the injuries at autopsy

763
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: that typically is going to be gone, and you potentially

764
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: have some you know, marine organisms that could be It's

765
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: just like insect activity on land. You can have marine

766
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: organisms that are now attacking the body so to speak,

767
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: you know, and disrupting some of the evidence and the

768
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: visual aspects that would be used. One of the advantages

769
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: sort of is this is not a warm body of water.

770
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: That's going to be a cooler body of water, so

771
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: in some ways there's a refrigeration and so decomposition can

772
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: be slowed to a point, but it's never good. You know.

773
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: You'd rather find the body on land than floating in

774
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: the water.

775
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems like this was kind of interesting.

776
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: There's a group of men in the rowboat who try

777
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: to recover her and do and there's a spot that's

778
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: still there, I guess called Sybil's Cave, which is these

779
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: days sealed shut, but back in the eighteen hundreds it

780
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: was an operation old natural spring that was housed kind

781
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: of inside a man made grotto. So while the area

782
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: offshore was accessible, this sounds like this might have been

783
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: a little not isolated, but something that was she was

784
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: intentionally put there, and maybe she didn't float there. But

785
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 1: I'm also not quite one hundred percent sure how that works.

786
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: I know you're right about the cold water natural spring

787
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: I assume would be cold.

788
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I'm a little confused. She is

789
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 2: found floating two hundred yards offshore.

790
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this cave is two hundred miles off shore,

791
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: So she's floating, but it sounds like she's maybe there's

792
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 1: like an alcove or something that they see her in,

793
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sound like she was placed there. Maybe

794
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: she just floated there.

795
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is where I would need to be

796
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: talking to experts about the waterway in terms of, Okay,

797
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: if her body is located at this location, and she's

798
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 2: been in the water for so long, let's say three days,

799
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 2: based on the currents, based on the weather that has happened,

800
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: based on the marrytime activities, you know, because this is

801
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 2: this is New York, and I'm assuming it's of course

802
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: it's not like today, but I'm assuming there's a fair

803
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 2: amount of boating that is going up and down this river.

804
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, Where did Mary's body initially go into the water.

805
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: Would these experts be able to predict that? Because now

806
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: I know Mary leaves on foot. We don't have motor vehicles.

807
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: She's not in a horse drawn carriage. As far as

808
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: I know, the offender cross paths with Mary at some point,

809
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: How does the offender get married to the location where

810
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: her body is put into the water. So, you know,

811
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: that's part of what I would want to start to

812
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: try to flesh out. And that is also kind of

813
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: going back to your question regarding Daniel. Did Daniel have

814
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: the capability that night to be able to get Mary

815
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: out to the kind of the dump site into the

816
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: river and get back without anybody noticing that, And how

817
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 2: long would that take?

818
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about these injuries once they

819
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: recover her, and you can tell me whether this is

820
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: maritime activity or or you know, animals in the water.

821
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: This is the way that the men who recover her say.

822
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 1: She was described as hideously bruised and water logged. When

823
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: I tell you about the injuries, there is no doubt

824
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: that violence was done upon her. That is not you know,

825
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: bumping into rocks or anything like that. It looks like

826
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: she has been severely, severely beaten. So what is the

827
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: water logged exactly?

828
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you've taken a bath, and you've been in

829
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: the bath for a while, and you see how your

830
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: you know, your your fingers start to prune up. You know,

831
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: your your skin is absorbing the water as it sits

832
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 2: in there, you know, and then when it dries out,

833
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 2: your skin goes back to normal. But when bodies are

834
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: in the water, you know, there is change that happens.

835
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: Physical appearance changes, you know, both from kind of the

836
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: water being absorbed by the body, the water getting into

837
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: the orifices, and of course decomposition is also going to

838
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: be a huge factor in terms of the appearance of

839
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: Mary's body after three days. You know, that's where initially

840
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: you've got these lay persons that are making their statements

841
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: as to what they saw. But are they somebody that

842
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 2: has seen what the human body looks like? This bruising

843
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: even though it sounds like this bruising is legit, but

844
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: also you can see decomposition can also be misconstrued as bruising.

845
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: Here's some more contemporary discussions here. Historical crime detective says

846
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: that the woman's face was swollen and has been beaten

847
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: to a pulp murdered by gaslight. We've took to the

848
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: blogger who runs that his story describes her as battered,

849
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: and a reporter from the Herald who was on site

850
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: that day says this is a quote. The first look

851
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: we had of her was most ghastly. Her forehead and

852
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: face appeared to have been battered and butchered to a mummy.

853
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: Her features were scarcely visible, so much violence had been

854
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: done to her. On her head. She wore a bonnet,

855
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: light gloves on her hands with the long water fingers

856
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: peering out. Her dress was torn in various portions. Her

857
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: shoes were on her feet, and altogether she presented the

858
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: most awful spectacle that the eye could see. The only

859
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: way they could identify her was by her what they

860
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: said was her delicate feet in her clothing. That's how

861
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: either she was butchered or decomposed after three days in

862
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: the water, or a combination of the two.

863
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: Tell me she had an autopsy, because I want to

864
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: know what the medical people said.

865
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the medical people have a lot of speculation.

866
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: We'll see what you agree with or not. But there's

867
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: a lot happening. And I know what you're thinking about

868
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 1: the torn dress, and they think the same thing, that

869
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: this was a sex assault.

870
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I think, yeah, disruption to her clothing is going

871
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: to be something that you have to pay attention to.

872
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: But also, you know the dress being torn, is it

873
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: due to transport of the body. Is it due to

874
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 2: you know, floating in the water and you know getting

875
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: hung up on various objects you know in the water

876
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: or boats you know coming by. And this is in

877
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 2: the days before propellers, I'm assuming it. Oh, so that's

878
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: where I would want to know more about how the

879
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: dress was torn. And it does that look like it

880
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: was done by the offender and if it does, then yeah,

881
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: then you start saying this is likely sexually motivated crime.

882
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: And you know everything about this is you know, when

883
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: you look at her victimology, there appears to possibly be

884
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 2: a greater likelihood that this is a sexually motivated crime

885
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: than something else.

886
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: So this is gross. Her corpse is taken ashore before

887
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: she's identified, and there are curious onlookers who take Stixon

888
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: pok and brought her. There's no police out there doing anything,

889
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: and no organized police force. We've talked about this time

890
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: period before, so there are people on the beach who

891
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 1: were looking at her and gossiping, who is this? What happened?

892
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: So guess who comes up on this scene. Our friend

893
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,760
Speaker 1: Alfred Chrome. He just happens to stumble on the scene.

894
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: He's with us pal who's named Archibald Padley. Both of

895
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: these guys lived, you know, with Mary Rogers in the

896
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: boarding house. But I don't think Archibald and Mary were involved.

897
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: They just so happened to stumble upon this scene. And

898
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: it does seem like the coincidence of a lifetime and

899
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: Alfred will later tell investigators listen, I was looking over Hoboken,

900
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: I was searching for her. You know, I wanted to

901
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: find her. Daniel was looking for her. I was looking

902
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: for her. So he sees her, and he's the one

903
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: who ends up identifying the body because she is unrecognizable.

904
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: Just between as I said before, the hot weather, the water,

905
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: the injuries that she already had marine life, he says,

906
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: this is Mary Rogers. And he immediately says Mary was

907
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: an honorable woman, and she was wonderful, and this is

908
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: a horrible tragedy, and he seems very deeply affected by

909
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: her death. And that is where we are left for

910
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: the end of part one? Who killed Mary Rogers?

911
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: Oh? I have so many questions.

912
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I need a week of rest to answer

913
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: those questions.

914
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 2: So you're going to make me wait a week before

915
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 2: I get to hear the rest of the story?

916
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: Huh, yes, sir? Sorry, okay. And there's a lot of

917
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: doctory physician and medical examine type stuff that I have

918
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: to go over and again speculation, and we'll just see

919
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: what you think of eighteen forty one speculation from the

920
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: medical community, and it'll be interesting.

921
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: All right. Well, I can't wait to hear those details.

922
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: Okay, see you in a week.

923
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

924
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right production for our sources

925
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

926
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

927
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

928
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

929
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

930
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

931
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

932
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

933
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

934
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

935
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

936
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

937
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

938
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now