WEBVTT - Pretend Play, Part 4 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.800 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.520 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:16.640 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.960 And I am Joe McCormick. And today we returned the 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.919 fourth installment in our discussion of pretend play, play that 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.680 involves non literal action and understanding. So when I pretend 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.440 my fingers are worms crawling up the side of the 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:34.519 couch that's going on in our house this week, by 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.360 the way, fingers are worms, Or when I pretend a 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.239 cardboard box becomes the castle gray Skull, or when I 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.559 change the diaper on a stuffed velociraptor, or if I 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.560 go on adventures in the backyard with an imaginary friend. 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.920 These are all forms of pretend play, play that takes 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.240 place within a pretend frame and treats anything in the 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.760 world or in the situation as other than what it 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.200 literally is. Now, if we haven't heard the previous parts 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.240 in this series, I think this is one where we 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.720 really would recommend listening in order. We're going to be 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.440 building on some conversations we had in previous episodes today, 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.360 but in those previous installments, to refresh, we talked about 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.760 ways that researchers define and subdivide pretend play into activities 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:23.120 like object substitution. So one of our favorite examples is 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.480 banana is a telephone. They talk about that a lot 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.720 in the research enactment play where you might be You know, 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.560 I am cooking dinner in my play kitchen replica, play 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.760 where you have my toy triceratops as cooking dinner in 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:42.399 the dollhouse, imaginary companions, and other things. We talked about 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.200 possible links explored in the research between pretend play and 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:52.200 the development of advanced cognitive skills like symbolic understanding, counterfactual reasoning, 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.720 and theory of mind, addressing the question of whether pretending 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.720 might help children develop some of those important faculties, or 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:04.080 at least whether pretending in those faculties might draw on 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.720 the same underlying neural structures. In Part two, we talked 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:13.080 in more depth about research on imaginary friends and imaginary companions, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.839 how often they manifest within and across different cultures, what 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.480 forms they take, what children believe they know, and things 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.399 like that. In the most recent episode, we looked more 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.640 at the question of how adult culture influences pretend play 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.240 among children, noting that while pretending does appear to be 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.799 basically universal, there is pretty wide variation in how much 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.080 children play pretend, and in the themes of the pretend play, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.000 and in some particular cases, in the framing of whether 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.120 pretend entities are understood as real in some important way 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.000 or not. And then last time we also examined the 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:57.680 fascinating phenomenon of paracosms, essentially extending the concept of an 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.280 imaginary friend to where it is not a single character 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.440 or playmate, but an entire imaginary world, maybe with its 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:10.680 own geography, culture, populations, and rules. And we discussed links 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.120 between a childhood tendency to generate paracosms and things like 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:16.799 creativity in later life. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.440 Yeah yeah, and I have a paracosm update here. Oh 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.359 really yeah, Because after we'd record this, I realized, well, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.840 my child is twelve and almost thirteen, which places them 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.160 toward the end of what is broadly considered the paracosm 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.079 period for kids. So I asked them the next morning 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.640 over breakfast. I was like, I know you had some 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.600 pretend worlds and or have pretend worlds that you sometimes 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:45.720 engage with other friends. Tell me about them. And so 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.080 they laid it all out for me. They said, there 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.320 are two pretend worlds, both of them social in nature, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.040 that they shared with one particular other friend. So one 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:00.320 of these with one friend is essentially an extrapol of 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.560 Star Wars. They said. It's different planets set in the 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.360 Old Republic era on which Jedis have adventures. Okay, which 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.200 I think that's a pretty good example because it's like, 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.240 clearly it's built upon the Star Wars universe, but a 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.599 universe like the Star Wars universe is kind of limitless, 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.279 so yeah, you can build out other things that draw 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.680 on the existing Star Wars lore, but but generate new 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.960 ideas as well. And then the other one. I think 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.080 this was earlier. It was a really wild take on 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.679 Pokemon that they had with another friend that was super 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.720 into Pokemon at the time, and they would describe these 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:41.479 epic wars between Pokemon factions and like an evil Pikachu. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.560 It was really wild, and at the time it was 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.800 like it was at times it was a little much. 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.280 I was like, this Pikachu is an ally, guys, what 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:50.000 are you doing. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.320 Is evil Pikachu already a thing? Or is that that's 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:54.560 purely original? 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.279 I mean, Pikachu's been around long enough. I imagine all 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:01.200 variations possible have been dreamt off. Pikachu, I'm sure has 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:03.520 played a role in various paracosms. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.080 I am Pikachu, I contain multitudes. 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.880 Yeah, for some reason, these kids didn't like Pikachu. I 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.880 think they didn't like Pikachu's fame, like Pikachu being the 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:17.320 most famous of the Pokemon. But they love Piachu, the 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.120 Pokemon that evolves into Pikachu. So there you go. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.000 Gotta take Pikachu down a pig. I guess so well. Obviously, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.159 Pretend to Play is a really rich subject where we 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.120 just keep finding new angles to examine and things to 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.360 talk about. I don't know exactly how many parts we're 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.360 going to go to here. This will be part four. 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.000 We may actually make it to part five in this series, 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.920 but there was something I wanted to address in today's episode. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:45.440 One reason is that one of the big overviews of 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.440 pretend to Play research addressing like the links with other 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.760 cognitive capacities and stuff like that, one of the big 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.320 overviews we talked about. It's about ten years old at 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.120 this point, so I was looking around for some more 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.880 recent research on Pretend to Play to see if there 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.000 are kind of updates to any of the stuff we've 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.040 already talked about. Obviously there's new stuff coming out all 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.919 the time. But one thing that caught my attention was 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.200 when I came across an interesting write up in Nautilus 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.960 by Elena Rankin from September twenty twenty four, which was 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.320 reporting on a paper published in the journal Cognitive Development 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.920 the same year. And that paper was by a pair 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.760 of researchers named Elena Hoyka who is affiliated with the 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.920 University of Bristol, and Eloise Prutin, who at the time 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.200 I believe was a trainee clinical psychologist at Oxford. And 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.520 this paper is called the Early Pretending Survey or EPs, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:41.080 A Reliable Parent Report Measure of Pretense Type Development for 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:46.000 four to forty seven month olds. Now we've already talked 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:50.039 about a few different kinds of pretend play and how 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.640 they don't all emerge at once, but rather come online 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.120 at different times as a child grows up, as the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:02.040 children developed different mental and physical capabilit Something interesting that 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.000 this twenty twenty four paper did was get really granular 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.960 in that specific regard breaking pretend to play down into 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.240 lots of different categories, in fact, into nineteen different categories 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.360 of activity, and then they did a large survey of 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.320 the parents of about nine hundred kids between the ages 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.120 of four months old to forty seven months, which is 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.960 just shy four years old, to try to get fine 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.360 detail on when parents observed all these different types of 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.320 pretend play first manifesting. Now you might think nineteen different 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.560 types of pretending, like, how do you get to that? 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.880 Like beyond the banana phone, I don't know what else 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.160 is there? You got imaginary friends, banana phone, I'm a lion, 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.640 what's left? And it's true that some of these categories 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.280 they explore are kind of overlapping or are kind of 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.800 subdivisions of activities we've already talked about into two different subtypes, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.320 but I still thought it was really interesting, and this 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.000 brought up stuff that I had actually observed with my 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.640 own daughter but had sort of forgotten about in our 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.600 earlier discussions of pretend play from this series. So I 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.000 want to look through this list of play activities from 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:11.480 the paper. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.640 Okay, all right, this will be fun, because, yeah, I 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.120 think we can compare notes in multiple ways here. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.000 So we're going to start with some we haven't really 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:22.160 talked about before. One category is pretending to be in 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.600 another state. Now that's not a state, like a geographic region, 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.160 a state, another state of being, like pretending to be 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.080 asleep or pretending to sneeze when you don't actually have 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.760 to sneeze. Somewhat similar but a little bit different is 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.280 pretending to cry. 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.920 Hmm, okay, there are different dynamics to all of these, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.040 because you know, you can pretend to cry and work 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.520 yourself up to a real cry. Oh sure, I don't 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.880 know if you can do that with a sneeze. Maybe 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.000 there's been research into this. Likewise, you can pretend to 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:56.600 be asleep and fall asleep. 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.119 But yeah, okay, here's another one. Pretending to do everyday 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.800 adult activities like cooking or driving. We could think of 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.240 this as a kind of enactment play. So we've already 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.680 talked about versions of this. Pretending that this is apparently 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.640 really big. It sounds very specific, but it's a very 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.880 very commonly observed thing. Pretending empty vessels are full, so 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.720 drinking from an actually empty cup or pouring One example 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.000 I thought of is pouring invisible cereal out of an 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.760 empty cereal box into a bowl. And this one can 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.040 actually split up into three subtypes. So there is pretending 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.800 empty vessels are full in relation to serving the self, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.280 like I drink from a literally empty cup. Then there 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.960 is pretending empty vessels are full on another, I feed 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.320 my doll from this empty cup, or I try to 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.680 make Dad drink from this empty cup, and then finally 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.319 pretending empty vessels are full on many others. So I'm 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.160 feeding many different toys or people in this manner. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.280 Yeah. Yeah, looking back that I remember doing a lot 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:06.199 of sampling of various food, imaginary food, or drinks that 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:07.520 my kid had prepared you. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.280 Another one is what the authors call gesturing an object. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.840 This would not be external object substitution, but instead things 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:21.320 like my finger is a toothbrush, essentially mentally extending or 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.719 substituting parts of the body as a pretend external object. 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.560 Okay, finger guns wouldnt imagine Okay. 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.520 Yeah. Then after that you got one that will be 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.240 more familiar to us. Pretending to be an object like 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:35.079 I am a tree. 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:40.040 There is pretend what I'm sorry, I'm just imagining that 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.000 pretend gang, gotcha. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.680 Yeah, it's very Yeah, I don't know, it's more complex 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:44.360 than you might think. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.000 Yeah, for the quiet kids. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.440 There's pretending to be an animal like I am a 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:50.120 bunny rabbit. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:56.120 This was huge with my child until really very recently. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.000 There would often be request to play zookeeper at playground 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.120 where I would have to be a zookeeper doing a 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.720 British accent, like a like an Attenborough type accent, describing 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.760 nature documentary style what the animal is doing while they 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.040 did animal pretend play. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:16.240 That's beautiful. There is classical object substitution, which we've already 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.400 talked about, but they actually break this down into multiple categories. 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.080 There is object substitution with non descript props, so this 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.119 might be when the literal prop is somewhat generic and versatile, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.160 like toy block is a phone. And then there is 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:37.160 object substitution with more specific props that are very different 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.080 from the thing they're mimicking, So like toy car is 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:40.920 a telephone? 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.960 Interesting, all right, And so this is casual object substitution, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.120 So imagine this is different. This differs from something that 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.959 I saw later on with my child where they would 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.080 craft a pretend telephone or a pretend computer or a 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.760 pretend Nintendo switch out of like cardboard and stuff like that. 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:02.960 That seems more specific than what we're talking about here. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:04.840 Yeah, that does seem like a different thing if you're 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.320 building it. That's like a like the play if the 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.079 play is centered around the fabrication process. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.000 Yeah yeah, And I guess you get into the example 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.240 that I already brought up about the lightsabers building a 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:16.080 lightsaber help. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.520 Yeah, okay. After this, there is pretending to be another person. 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.839 This would be a really existing person like I am 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.719 Grandpa or I am Mom. Okay, I don't think we 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.360 did that one. And then there are further distinctions about 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:36.320 the social context. There's pretending alone versus pretending with somebody else. 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.439 And I guess those two categories could apply to any 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:43.520 of the above categories we mentioned. Beyond this, there is 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.439 what the authors call socio dramatic pretending. This means creating 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.960 not just a single action in pretense, but creating a 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.000 more elaborate pretend story. So maybe not just like I 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.200 am Grandpa, I pour tea like Grandpa. Instead it's like 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.760 I am Grandpa and I want to go to the 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.760 store to buy candy for my doggie. But on the 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.240 way to the store, I get attacked by pirates and 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.000 my doggie gets hurt and I have to put a 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.120 band aid on my doggie. So he can feel better, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:14.840 and then we all go swimming in the lake, and 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.199 you know, and so forth after that. There is pretending 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.079 to be fantasy characters already existing in culture, like you know, 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.680 I am Princess Leiah, I am Batman, I am Santa Claus, 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:26.520 that sort of thing. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.400 And obviously we encourage that across the board, yes, you know, 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.920 and for children and adults, you know, certainly get into 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.800 that dressing up as these various characters. So yeah, I 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.600 think I think a lot of us very much encouraged 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:42.240 this sort of thing. 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.080 There is, of course, pretending to have an imaginary friend 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.720 or companion. We've already talked about that a lot. There 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.520 is I thought this was an interesting distinction. There is 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:55.440 pretending to do real activities that are not available to 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.120 most people most of the time, So real activities but 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.080 not every day activities. And examples of this might be 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.040 I am a rocket ship commander. That's a real thing, 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.760 but most people don't do that. I am a pop 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.400 singer and I'm on TV in front of millions. That's 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.680 a real thing. Most people don't do it. So that's 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:19.720 distinct from both fantasy activities and from everyday activities like 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:20.840 driving or cooking. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.720 One of my kids friends would pretend to open their 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:25.200 own bank. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.200 That's sort of in the category. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.520 Yeah, they'd make their own money. I think I still 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.480 have some of their pretend bills around here somewhere in 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:39.800 one of my books. It's a bookmark called them Darryl Bucks. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.760 That is curious. And then finally you've got acting out 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.120 completely made up fantasy scenarios. You know, I ride a 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.000 dragon through the sky and I use magic to transform 0:14:49.040 --> 0:15:01.480 people into cats and that sort of thing. Yeah, so 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.360 I really liked this granular attention to detail in the 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.960 different ways that pretend to play can manifest. And this 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:13.120 paper actually developed a new tool for asking participant parents 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.720 questions to track the emergence of these different pretend activities. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.520 So the tool the authors developed was called the Early 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.920 Pretending Survey or EPs, and the authors tested the EPs 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.920 for internal reliability, stability over time, inter observer agreement, and 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.120 they found it performed pretty well, which they leveraged to 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.680 argue that the EPs could be quote useful for researchers 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.800 to better understand how pretending relates to other areas of development, eg. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.440 Cognition and language. Now I can imagine we've already talked 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:51.640 in some ways about difficulties with relying on parental reports 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.440 for understanding childhood play, and those things are here as well. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.680 But I can imagine that one advantage of using parental 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.160 report in a survey as opposed to directly observing children 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.360 play in a lab is that the lab setting for 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.840 one thing might change what the children do, and so 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.920 relying on parental observations gives you access to how children 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.120 behave in settings that are normal for them, you know, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.600 like what they do at home or at school, and 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.400 in places where they normally are. I think we can 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.360 all relate to the fact that when we go to 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:31.200 an unfamiliar and maybe even uncomfortable place, we act different. Yeah. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.360 Yeah, And on top of that, this reminds me of 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.960 an example from some studies we're talking about with imaginary friends, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.080 where it was pointed out that, ay, you want to 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.520 talk to the kid and the adult, but when you 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.760 ask the kid about their imaginary friends, they might just 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:48.760 create one right there on the spot. 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:50.200 Yeah. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.760 So that's a great example of where it's also good 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.440 to chat with the parent and they'll be like, I've 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.440 never heard of mister Bongos. I think they made mister 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.120 bongoes up like literally just now for fun. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:02.720 Yeah, because you brought up the idea. 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.800 Yeah yeah, you let mister Bond goes. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:10.720 In, right, So the laboratory observation setting might be a 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.520 conjuring Captain Howdy kind of thing with the Ouiji aboard. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.000 Another big thing is that obviously having to have researchers 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.480 directly observe children playing over time in a laboratory setting 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.719 or any kind of whatever the controlled setting is is 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.719 just cumbersome, you know, it's like time consuming, and so 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.399 a survey format allows you to gather much larger sample 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.960 sizes than direct observation in a controlled setting. It's because 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.480 that the latter is costly and time consuming. So the 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.880 author has administered this survey to parents primarily in the US, UK, Canada, 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.560 and Australia in across the years twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.879 and I was interested what do they find. I can't 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.359 discuss everything mentioned in the paper, but some of the 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.720 highlights we've been talking. Here's one thing that's kind of 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.280 surprising based on our previous discussion. We've been talking about 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.840 a prevailing belief that object substitution, like you know, banana 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.720 is a phone is usually one of the first types 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.399 of pretend play observed, most often emerging at one and 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.040 a half years of age or so. But this survey found, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.320 and this agrees with some previous research, that actually there 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.160 are some other types of pretend play that come even earlier, 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.080 come before object substitution, and these would be some of 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.159 the more specific ones that we were talking about at 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.359 the beginning of the list. The list I read earlier 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:39.040 was roughly roughly in the chronological order of observance, so 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:45.199 remember the empty cups pretend play. The EPs found that 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.159 this happens early, with like half of kids doing it 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.040 by around thirteen months of age, and then the other 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.600 thing before object substitution is by around fifteen months, half 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.400 of kids have shown some signs of pretending with their 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.199 own body, such as pretending to be in a different 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.760 state like pretending to sleep or pretending to sneeze, or 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.600 pretending to be something else with their body like I 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.640 am a tiger, I'm growling, roar, And then it's by 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.560 seventeen months of age or so that half had shown 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.440 signs of object substitution. So this does agree in part 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.919 with the schedule we've been talking about before, where object 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.320 substitution shows up on average about one and a half 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.840 years old, but finds that some types of pretend play 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:33.240 tend to happen even earlier than object substitution. And though 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.520 I didn't really think much about either of these earlier examples, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.920 now that I reflect on it, I have to question 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.239 myself because you know, my memory is involved, and who 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.879 knows what I'm being primed to misremember here? But I 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.560 think this squares exactly with my own experience as the 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.520 parent of a toddler, Like I have a two year 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.919 old right now, and my memory may begin correct, But 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.840 I think before my daughter ever pretended one object was another, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.280 she would pretend to sneeze and pretend to be asleep, 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.360 and also pretend to eat or drink things that were 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.959 not really there, and she thought it was hilarious with 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:09.600 most of these. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.879 Yeah, I don't remember how this shook out with my 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.000 own kit, but in general this does seem accurate. 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.760 Yeah, now, from here, the story based socio dramatic play 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.960 that we were talking about that starts to happen more 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.840 when kids are around two years old usually, and then 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.680 complex make believe fantasy concepts tend to take hold when 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.119 children are around three, And of course it may be 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.399 that these later play types are dependent on the development 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.520 of language skills, so as children get better at using 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.800 manipulating language, that also sort of helps them construct these 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:52.320 abstract or counterfactual scenarios. Now, what about other general findings 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.439 in this paper. Well, one thing is that within the 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.080 survey range like four months to four years, kids pretending 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.800 scores steadily increased with age, which actually made me wonder, okay, 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.480 in this early period is just basically going straight up, 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.920 when do we actually see reductions in pretend play? That 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.240 actually came up in the Nautilus article that I shouted 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.320 out for pointing me to this research, because the author 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.440 of that Nautilus article cited some commentary by a researcher 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.800 named Sandra Russ at Case Western and Russ says that 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.320 it is most often around the age of nine or 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.440 ten that children start to kind of relinquish their pretend play. 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.200 But of course that can vary, and you could argue 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.560 with most people it never completely goes away. Some people 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.240 continue to show similar imaginative, imaginative behavior into adulthood, even 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.560 if it's not exactly play like when they were a child. 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.080 They might have creative hobbies like writing or art or acting, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.880 which could be in some ways analogous. And of course 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.960 some kids continue pretending into older ages. I think we 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:01.800 talked about how, you know, with kids start building paracosms 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.720 those it's I think fairly common for those to continue 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.000 from ages like eight to twelve or so. 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.119 Yeah, yeah, like twelve or thirteen, Yeah, somewhere in that range. So, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:14.719 and I guess that makes sense if you're looking at 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:19.600 this as like a general progression of one's use of imagination, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.679 that that would continue a little bit, a little bit 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:23.840 further into your development. 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.840 Any other broad differences within the children in the survey, 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:32.359 One was that girls, on average had a somewhat higher 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.119 EPs score than boys, though it was a small difference. 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.760 The gender difference was not huge, but it was statistically significant. 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:43.480 And also I thought this was interesting. Children of younger 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:50.640 parents had higher EPs scores than children of older parents. Now, again, 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.040 these differences are not huge, but that's interesting. Why would 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.720 pretending be happening a little bit more, a little bit 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.719 earlier in girls and in children of younger parents. In 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.800 both cases, it's not known with high confidence what explains it, 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.600 but the authors offer a couple of informed guesses. In 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:11.040 their discussion section as to the gender distinction, they relate 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.560