WEBVTT - Don't Should On Yourself 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:21.680 Jen Kirkman. Oh, I'm just I'm just feeling it year 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:31.280 three of this COVID pandemic. And I don't even know 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:38.320 if what I'm feeling is anxiety. It's just it blocks 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.559 is all the things, and and honestly, I'm not feeling 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:46.680 it towards the virus. I'm feeling it towards people. I mean, yeah, 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.879 the virus. Oh, I got my issues with this virus. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.080 If I see this virus, boy do I have a 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.880 thing or two to say to it. But people are 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:02.920 making me just I don't know, anxious man and nah, 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.360 or maybe I'm blaming people when I'm really just not 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.760 checking into my real deeper feelings about the lack of 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:16.960 control that living through a global pandemic that keeps mutating 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:24.080 makes us feel. You know, I I I started to 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.399 I refused to say get back to normal, even though 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.840 I say it a lot. But I don't even mean 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:31.680 it when I say but I started to go back 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.640 to doing things I used to do, enjoying myself at 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.240 a restaurant. I vaccinated. I living in New York right now, 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.880 and we had some of the lowest cases before oh, Macron. 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.760 I mean, honestly, you would have had to really try 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.760 to get COVID if you were vaccinated amboosted, which I 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.040 was back in October and early November, and I was 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.400 going to restaurants indoors, they check your vaccine card. It 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.880 felt very safe, and it did something for the soul. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.640 And then here comes ome Acron and and I don't listen, 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.400 My life's great. I don't mean to sound like a victim. 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.080 A lot of people have it worked, so I certainly 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.160 don't mean and me, me, me, But I found myself 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:22.679 once again back in that familiar feeling of uh, stop 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.400 the planet, I want to get off. These people here 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:30.040 are making me crazy, you know, that was that was 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.079 the first thing I said when I first first first 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.119 went to therapy decades ago. I'm fine, it's everyone else 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:37.959 and how they behave that's the problem. So if you 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:42.680 could just give me some tips. Thinks when you say 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.880 that to a therapist, boy or they just excited. They 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.480 know you're a patient they will have for a long time. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.400 Because of course, of course, when we feel so many things, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.079 it's always good to look within and not just without 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.720 or look out at other people and think, well, what 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.519 are they doing wrong to make me feel this way? 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.400 But whatever is causing it, I don't know. I can't 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.799 put a name to what I feel. I talk about 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.280 it with my guests today, the anxiety sisters. I call 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.760 it going into some kind of like emotional shutdown. But 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.720 just wake me when it's over. I'm irritable, you know, 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.520 I think that's what it is. My anxiety is posing 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:25.720 as irritability. I'm irritable at well, we're all gonna get 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.399 it anyway, so hope I just get it. I can't 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.440 stand that attitude, especially. I mean, I'm talking about people 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.640 who are vaccinated, who've been doing all the right things 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.880 and then suddenly, well you know, I might get it, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:40.760 So hope I do, and I can just get it 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.840 over with. Is though, what are you a scientist? Suddenly 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.680 you can see into the future, so if you get 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:50.800 this variant, it'll just be mild. And uh then what 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.400 you you can't reinfect because you can. I mean, I 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:59.400 don't want to get into this whole virology discussion. Is 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.680 that a word. I'm not an epidemiologist. I'm just a 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.160 human trying to get through this damn thing. And I 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.080 get I can feel it in my body. It feels 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.640 like someone put a weighted backpack on my shoulders when 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.440 I even just read a tweet or something from somebody saying, well, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.440 we're all gonna get this someday. So I hope I 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.360 get it soon. I want to get back out into 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.680 my life. I'm like, why aren't you thinking of others? Why? 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:34.920 Uh So that's where I'm at today and I listen. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.800 I tried to avoid talking about this pandemic as much 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:40.680 as I could on this podcast because I know, if 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.240 you're listening to a podcast about anxiety, you probably I 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.880 don't want to think about that right now. And when 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.320 I first started this podcast, we were again pre delta. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.840 That's how I think of my life now, what variant 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:57.960 was going on then. I don't even think of what 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.760 age I was or one month that was is well, 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.400 this was post vaccine, pre delta. But that's when I 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.360 started this podcast, and we interviewed a lot of people 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.360 months and months and months in advance before their episodes 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.159 came out, because I wanted to talk to them about 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:21.760 very specific, timeless, evergreen anxiety topics, neuroscience and meditation. But 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.560 a lot of times when people, you know, before we 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.640 rolled the audio. I would say, let's let's not mention 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.400 the pandemic because this might air in four to six months. 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.840 I don't know where we'll be at that point. It 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.760 might sound outdated, It might sound outdated in a good 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:42.680 or a bad way where people are like, what, but 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.320 oh my god, I forgot about the pandemic. It's totally 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.279 over or it's fifty times as worse, and we're kind 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.240 of not taking it seriously enough because we didn't know 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:56.480 when when we recorded. So this week we're sort of 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.919 more in the present of this. This episode was not 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:05.640 filmed too long ago, filmed what can I speak? Recorded? Um, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.719 it was recorded last week. So I do ask the 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.240 Anxiety Sisters what are they seeing out there? Because they 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.720 have this giant community of people who have anxiety that 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.480 they interact with, and so we do talk a little 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:21.920 bit about that, about how everybody is experiencing anxiety during 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.240 this time and what we can do to take care 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.440 of ourselves. And you know, it was interesting they caught 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.960 me in a moment, the Anxiety Sisters, of beating myself up. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.640 I said something like, oh, I don't know, I think 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.640 in a childish way, and they said, hey, don't talk 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.400 bad about yourself like that. I love when people who 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:47.080 are experts and anxiety can see me doing my unhelpful 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:52.640 cognitive thinking in the moment. So let's introduce our guests. 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.320 Enough of Me got enough of Me last week. My 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.520 guests today are the Anxiety Sisters. No, they are not related, 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.080 but they are soul sisters in having anxiety. They have 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.960 been friends for decades and they have a great book 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.840 that's out right now called The Anxiety Sisters Survival Guide, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.040 How you can become more hopeful, connected, and happy. The 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:19.840 Anxiety Sisters are Abby Greenberg and Maggie Sir Roger. Now, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.440 there is so much to tell you about them. They 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.280 have a podcast called The spin Cycle, they have their book, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.080 The Anxiety Sisters, and I will link all of this 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.200 in the show notes. But what is the most impressive 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.400 is that Abby and Maggie have a community of over 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.520 two thousand people that they talked to, as they put 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.360 it constantly. You can go to their website Anxiety Sisters 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.240 dot com, sign up for their newsletter and they'll send 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.920 you a free progressive muscle relaxation. But their Facebook page 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.000 has become really huge. They have forums on their web 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.080 say but that was changed and now it's gone over 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.320 to Facebook. So here finally a good Facebook story. So 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.080 their Facebook page is extremely active. They do all of 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:11.880 their own moderating, and they say they have one of 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:18.440 the kindest, most supportive gentle groups going and if you 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.000 send them a message, they will absolutely email you back 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.320 and may take a little bit, but they will do it. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.320 They have a book group on Facebook Live on Tuesday 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.160 nights at seven o'clock. They do a chapter from their 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.760 book a week and they give a presentation based on 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:38.440 that chapter. And they do a very private zoom group 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.520 called the Coping Crew if you want a little more 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.680 care and are able to pay for that. So I'm 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:49.000 just so impressed that they take so much time out 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.800 of their weeks and their days to help others, and 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.240 they are in touch with people that that blows my mind. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.080 And it was great to talk to them because I 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:02.760 always love talking to people who just like me, had 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.600 anxiety before there was the internet and we didn't even 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.960 know the words to use to try to get help. 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.640 And what dawned on me while I was talking with 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:15.600 the Anxiety Sisters is, in a way, I feel really 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.880 grateful for that because when we talked about our anxiety 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.760 to whomever we could talk to it about. Before the Internet, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.520 we would describe our physical symptoms, the sensations we were 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.960 feeling to the best of our ability, and we really 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.439 thought what was wrong with us was something physical, and 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.920 so we didn't just say I'm having anxiety. We would 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.439 say I'm driving and I feel like I can't breathe 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.360 and I'm going to faint and I need to pull over. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.960 And so, in a weird way, all of this anxiety 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.800 talk and labeling things anxiety is wonderful, but every once 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.440 in a while, I do think we need to step 0:09:53.480 --> 0:10:01.719 back and talk about the hundreds of individual symptoms that 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:07.079 anxiety can be, from an arm that feels numb, to 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:12.800 chest pains, two feelings of unreality, to irritability, to even 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.840 digestive issues. There is, as they say, if you have 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.040 a body part, anxiety can somehow be involved in that. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.040 So enough of me, Let's take you to my chat 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:32.680 with the anxiety sisters. Now, Am I allowed to say 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.080 that I'm an anxiety sister too? Oh? We we hope 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.800 you are, okay, I'm your I'm your sister and anxiety 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.560 and uh, you know what I loved in you know, 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.200 reading your bio is that you too were anxious kids, 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:53.600 anxious teenagers, anxious young adults, anxious middle aged adults, and 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.920 now we're all anxious middle aged adults. But at least 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:01.080 now we've got some information and it's more normalized. We 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.480 have the Internet. But just like me, you all were 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.320 figuring this out in a world where I don't even 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.640 know if the word anxiety was being used. And I 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.240 don't know if you're anything like me, but I thought 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.840 you were either normal or crazy, and crazy meant you 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.320 live in a patent room for the rest of your 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.360 life and your family visitsing once a year. And so 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:21.600 I didn't want to tell anybody because I felt like 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.520 it was like confessing to a murder, Like if I 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.640 say something, then this whole thing is going down. You know, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.160 my life's changing forever. So can you take me through 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.400 your lives together? And why this is um to me 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.240 so unique is that you had each other and you 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.440 know friendships grow apart all the time, and that you 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.840 both stayed anxious together but helped each other through it. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.520 Can you tell me your story and your own words? Well, 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:52.480 we we met in college in the late eighties, and 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.120 uh so we say that we're Although we're not biological sisters, 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.640 we are definitely soul sisters because after thirty four years 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.679 of child raining each other, we definitely have earned that 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.840 we're now linked forever um. But I think that what 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.440 attracted us to each other initially was just sort of 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.240 that panicked expression we both wore on our faces all 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.560 the time, and I think we felt like kindred spirits, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.120 right Macus, I mean, this isn't that sort of I 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.320 mean I looked at her, you know, I listened to 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.000 sort of the things that she talked about, and I thought, yeah, 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.080 feeling that too, And she seems like the kind of 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.880 person that I could could fide in and tell her that. 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.080 You know, I did. You you know, I went to 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.600 the counseling center and I laughed just because those are 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.960 those were never helpful back then. No, I you know, 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:39.920 it's like I felt, I felt like I didn't want 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:41.600 to tell anyone. I went to the counseling center because 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.040 some people are like, oh, why, what's wrong with you? 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.080 So I didn't want to tell anyone. But I felt 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:46.920 like Maggie was someone I could tell. I don't know why. 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:48.880 She just looked like someone who either had been to 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.040 the counseling center herself, or at least understood. And I 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.560 said to her, have you gone to talk to anybody 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.240 about this? And she was like, oh, yeah, I didn't 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.480 really help, thank goodness. So that's kind of how the 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.520 conversation began. We lived in the same dorm and really 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.560 ended up spending a lot of nights sitting together and 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.199 talking about what ended up being our symptoms of anxiety 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.240 and even some depression. We just didn't have the vocabulary 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.680 for it. Back then. People weren't talking about it. I mean, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.280 I know, I thought that there was just something physically 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.319 wrong with me and that i'd probably die from it eventually. 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.240 I just didn't know what it was. And now you 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.560 thought you had some sort of stomach ailment that was 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.160 most likely canceled or definitely fatal. And we kind of, 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.400 you know, lamented the fact that we would have, you know, 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.200 very anxious in short lives. You know, I have the 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.319 same thing, and I I thought, as well, you're reminding 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.480 me that I didn't just think something might psychologically be wrong. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.559 I had panic disorder on diagnosed, and so I thought 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.959 I just have a heart condition or something that's that 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:55.480 we don't know what it is yet. But if I 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.240 feel like this ten times a day every day, I'm 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.440 probably not live very long. It's probably gonna probably to 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.760 kill me. We like to say that we had our 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.439 twenties was our decade of the where you know, we 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:13.679 still didn't really understand this idea of anxiety disorder um, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.760 and we each sort of decided, Okay, we're gonna go 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.640 see what is actually wrong with us. So we went 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:25.000 to the nutritionist and the cardiologist, and the hypnotist and 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:30.920 the past life regressionists and the psychiatrist, the therapist, you know, 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.720 whatever is there was, and whomever would take our money. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.400 We were there trying to find the reason why we 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.560 felt like we felt we would go anywhere or do 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.640 anything that offers some bope because we were both so 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.240 even though we had each other, were very isolated and 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.760 lonely because I think anxiety disorder does that. It makes 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.480 you feel set apart from others, and we felt really alone, 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.160 like we thought we were the only two people that 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.920 were dealing with this. Yeah. Oh, and we didn't have 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.360 the Internet back then, so we didn't have the access 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.480 to other people saying yeah, I experienced this also, And 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.440 you know, we tried to look for that, and we 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.720 we couldn't find it. We went to the bookstore. You know, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.440 we're booked people, So to the bookstore. I thought, all right, 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.600 we'll buy books about anxiety and that will make us 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.200 feel better. And you know, I had a full blown 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.920 panic attack at Barnes and Noble because the book that 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.880 I pulled out it was some had panic in the title, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.600 and it was bright red. And remember that, Mags, Yes, 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.200 I do remember it. I have to leave the store. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.480 I did because I was starting to shake. And some 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.120 of the books that we were reading, I mean, they 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.920 were really they were written by very respected experts who 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.080 absolutely knew their stuff, but it was very clinical and 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.200 very prescriptive, and all Mag's and I kept saying to 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.400 each other's, I don't think we can do this. I don't. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.680 I mean one of the books that we read told 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.520 me that I needed to do have the cardiovascular exercise 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.440 thirty minutes a day. Well, I could tell you something. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.800 In my panic, my heart raced two ridiculous levels and 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.280 I was already sweaty, and I thought, I can't make 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.640 my heart go any higher than this. You know, I'll 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:13.600 just get on the elliptical and blow up. Anxiety bites 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.400 will be right back after a quick little message from 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:24.520 one of our sponsors. So when you all are sitting 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.960 around talking about your anxiety, and again there were aren't 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.000 these words for work, for saying what? What kind of 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.520 do you remember? What kind of things you're saying when 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.880 you're talking about your symptoms with each other? Like what 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.600 words were you using? Well, you know, at different times 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.320 it was. It was different as we went along. But 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.360 I think, you know, for us, there were some things 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:53.320 happening in our lives that just um indicated a problem, 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.000 but we didn't really connect the dots in our in 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.720 each of us had that, you know, or we didn't 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:05.679 even know that it wasn't quite um typical too. I 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.440 don't know, you know, So I I had developed at 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.560 one point a lot of phobias. Um, I knew that 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:19.240 wasn't typical. But um, I didn't know the word phobia 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.119 or exposure therapy that type of thing. But I knew, 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.879 Oh god, when I'm when I'm driving in a car, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.120 I'm getting more and more nervous and what and I 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.200 can't drive in the rain. I have to pull over 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.359 when it's raining. Yeah, Or I remember visiting Abby at 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.600 her grandmother's we so we must have been, you know, 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.880 in our early twenties. And she lived about an hour 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.280 and a half away from where my parents lived, and 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.159 I had taken their car and that trip took me 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:53.360 six hours because I kept having to pull over. And so, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.320 you know, I think a lot of times, and Abby 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.400 has her own version of that too, but I think 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:02.480 a lot of times things were happening to us and 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.520 we weren't quite connecting the dots. But you know, so 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.200 it was more like, wait, why is that taking the 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.760 six hours for me? The symptoms were so pronounced, and 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.800 you know, in your twenties, you're just not expecting to 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.240 have chest pain all the time. You're not expecting to 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.200 be dizzy, and you're not expecting for your left arm 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.119 to some suddenly go numb. You know. It's like I 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.439 would watch these Bay or Ashburn commercials and be like, 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.920 oh my god, I'm dying. Oh the beer aspens just totally. 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.280 That was that was about the only thing that seemed 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.359 close to what I was experiencing. So I remember buying 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.040 Bear aspirin in my twenties. Yes, my conversations with Maggie 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.000 would go something like this. She picked up the phone 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:42.880 and she would say hello, and I would say, Okay, 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.560 it's happening again. My arm is numb. What do you 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.359 think that's what do you think that could mean? It 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:48.840 has to be heart attack, right, it has to be 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.480 a heart disease thing. And she would say, well, yeah, 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.440 but it's been going on for so long it's probably 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.159 I'm like, yeah, but what else could it be? And 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.800 so a lot of our conversations were, well, what could 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:59.920 this be? We don't get it. And then I went 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:04.600 to the emergency room twice, not three times, but four times, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.560 and in the fourth time I actually said, haven't you 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.440 seen house looked further? This is like a real it's 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.840 a real problem. You guys are missing it. You don't 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:17.879 And he said, well, we did the e k G twice, 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.840 we we checked your enzymes, you've done a chest X ray. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.080 We really can't do anything else. Your heart is totally fine. 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.840 I'm like, you people do not know what you're doing 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.960 because I'm in here every week, and they didn't say 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.159 anything like, gee, this could be anxiety. Well, on the 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.080 fourth go around, he said to me, this is definitely anxiety, 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.000 and I'm going to prove it to you. He said, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.440 I have here a shot of ad evan, he said, 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.440 which is a sedative. If you're having a heart attack, 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:46.480 it's not going to stop your heart a heart attack, 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.680 he said, but if you're having anxiety, you should feel 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.560 a little better. So he put it into my I V. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.280 And within ten minutes, I'm like, this stuff is great. 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.679 How do I get in some of this? That is? 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.200 You know, I've never heard anyone I've heard of people 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.040 being told by their doctor you know, this is anxiety 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:12.320 when it was. But wow, what an amazing actual procedure 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.520 that he gave you, which is I'm going to give 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:19.479 you an anxiety medication. You know. Uh, I mean, that's brilliant. 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.760 I've never heard of it that happening to anybody. Well, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:24.440 he was the first person who made me think, all right, 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.920 it's possible that sharp chest pains, at the shortness of breath, 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.800 that all these things that that sounds me like a 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.560 heart attack. Maybe it's possible that this is coming from 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.040 a different place. Maybe this is this is something in 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.520 my brain. It's interesting that because as women, as you know, um, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.440 it dates back to the beginning of medicine, we were 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.159 called hysterical. If anything was ever wrong physically, you know, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:50.160 science still knows so little about women's bodies and women's 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.359 health that it all boils down to, um, we're hysterical, 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.439 we're crazy. And yet, weirdly, so many women I know 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.240 when they have gone to get their heart to did 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.760 or get a stress tester, or see a cardiologist that 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.879 actually anxiety comes up on like the third visit. And 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.359 it's like, of all the times that someone should be 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.880 saying this actually is in your it sometimes doesn't seem 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.280 to happen. And I know, for me, a doctor once 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.399 said to me, I mean the therapist one said to me, 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.520 for sure, go get all of your blood tests, go 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.440 to the doctor and make sure nothing physical is wrong. 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:26.600 And you know, we can assume as is anxiety, but 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.639 let's just make sure. And so I think that's always 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.800 the best way to go. So in a weird way, um, 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.760 people with anxiety end up doing the right thing first. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.120 In a strange way, we tell everybody, if you are 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:45.560 an anxiety sister, you've probably seen cardiologists, neurologists, gastro inturologists. 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.680 You know, you've seen probably in some sense you've seen 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.359 like so many doctors and gotten things checked out. And 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.960 we always tell people to do that, you know, because 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.359 that that is responsible. Yeah, because these symptoms are so 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.959 physical called it's like people think, oh anxiety, Oh I 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:07.320 feel a little anxious. No, it's not. You may not think, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.159 you know. I know. I never felt like, oh I'm anxious. 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.200 I felt like, oh I'm nauseous all the time. Oh 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:18.520 I can't eat? Oh nothing staying down? You know. So 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.199 how is that anxiety? How is that not something wrong 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.320 with my stomach? You know? And that's what so tricky 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:31.200 about anxiety is it's not a feeling, it's it's physical 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.959 symptoms often And yeah, Maggie, you're making me realize that, 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.640 you know, in a weird way. You two were really 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.639 lucky to not have language yet, because nowadays it can 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:42.840 get so sanitized. So I'm thinking of your story. We're 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.480 driving and it's raining, it takes you six hours, you 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.200 have to pull over. You know. Nowadays you might say 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.280 to someone I'm feeling some feelings like unreality, I'm having 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.920 anxiety driving and it just sort of gets washed over. 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.440 And so what I'm experiencing a lot doing this podcast 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:01.560 is people are writing to me and saying, now I 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:03.880 don't have anxiety, but I have, and then they list 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.800 nine symptoms of anxiety, but none of the symptoms seem typical, 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.760 so they don't think they have it. And so in 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:11.280 a weird way, it's kind of a gift that we 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:15.199 grew up learning to describe each and every symptom. My 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.600