1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. Rob and I are out this week, 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: so we are going to be continuing our vault series 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: which began last Saturday on the Sunken Lands. So today's 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: episode is going to be part two of that series. 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: This originally published November thirtieth, twenty twenty three. 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: My name is Robert. 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: Land, and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: part two in our series called the Sunken Lands, about 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: places where what was relatively recently dry land has now 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: vanished beneath the waters. Now, in the last episode, we 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: talked about the history of fascination with the idea of lands, 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: and especially human civilizations occupied lands that were swallowed by 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: the sea, the most famous of these stories, of course 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: being Atlantis, a probably originally fictional island civilization described by 18 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Plato in some of his dialogues that was, according to 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: the story, punished for its hubris by being drowned in 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: the ocean. And even though most experts on the original 21 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: sources think this story probably did not refer to a 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: place existing in reality. There are still people all the 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: time who love to hunt for remains of Atlantis and 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: similar drowned empires, or to interpret any strange underwater imagery 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: or other phenomena or artifacts as evidence of such. Here's 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: a weird looking artifact from under the water. Maybe it's 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: from Atlantis. 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in many cases it's harmless. But you know, 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: as we've been discussing, these kind of ideas can bleed 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: into pseudoscience, pseudo archaeology, and pseudo geology, and in some 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: of these areas are perhaps harmless as well, but they 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: can become increasingly less harmless depending on what form they 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: end up taking within a given culture. I guess I 34 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: would just drive home that there's kind of an amorphous 35 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: nature to a lot of the concepts that we've been 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: discussing with the idea of lost islands, and there's going 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: to continue to be this kind of a morphous quality 38 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: to it as we proceed. 39 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: Right. So, despite the fact that hunting for a literal, 40 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: physical Atlantis is probably the wrong track to be on, 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: there are absolutely examples of real places on Earth where 42 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: land has relatively recently become covered in water and the 43 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: main real world example we talked about in the last 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: episode was what has come to be known as dogger Land, 45 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: a vast plain stretching mostly east of Great Britain and 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: north of the coastlines of Continental Europe, off the north 47 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: coastlines of what is today France, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands, 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: occupying much of the area that is now filled in 49 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: with the North Sea. Now, last time we talked about 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: some of the fascinating early hints, early pieces of evidence 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: that pointed to the existence of a past Doggerland, such 52 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: as observations going back centuries. Actually that sometimes low tide 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: on the British coast would reveal the remains of apparently 54 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: ancient trees and trunks, still rooted in their original soil, 55 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: but now underneath the ocean. How's that possible? As well 56 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: as the discovery of terrestrial animal remains and even human 57 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: artifacts like the Kolinda Harpoon, a Stone Age spear tip 58 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: dragged up from the bottom in a fishing net about 59 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: twenty five miles off the coast of Great Britain in 60 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. In nineteen thirty one, so today we're 61 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: back to talk more about the sunken lands, and I 62 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: wanted to kick off this episode by exploring Dogland in 63 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: more depth. So Doggerland used to be land. Now it's 64 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: covered in sea. What happened to it? Well, I'm going 65 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: to lay out a rough timeline here, and I just 66 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: want to mention at the top here a couple of 67 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: really good articles about the archaeology of Doggerland that I 68 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: was reading. One was called Europe's Lost Frontier. This was 69 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: a feature published in the journal Science by Andrew Curry 70 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: in January twenty twenty. Another is called Mapping a Vanished Landscape. 71 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: This was in Archaeology Magazine by Jason Urbanas in the 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: March April twenty twenty two edition. So the Doggerland timeline 73 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: goes like this. During the Late Pleistocene, the last part 74 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: of the most recent ice age, between about one hundred 75 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: and twenty five thousand and twelve thousand years ago, much 76 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: of the world's water was locked in glaciers and the 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: North Sea was much lower than it is today. It 78 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: was about four hundred and fifty feet lower than the 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: present average. So at this time during the Late Pleistocene, 80 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: Doggerland was a cold, dry place, a freezing grassland step 81 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: occupied mostly by megafauna like wooly mammoths or wooly rhinoceroses, 82 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: but other large large animals that can withstand cold environments, 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: like reindeer and the aurux, the ancestor of modern cattle. 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: Then after the conclusion of the Pleistocene, we transition into 85 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: the geological epic known as the Holocene, which extends up 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: until today. This is the warming period after the most 87 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: recent ice age. So this period is characterized by a 88 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: steady increase in temperatures which caused glaciers to begin to melt. 89 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: So for thousands of years, you know, to think back 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: roughly ten thousand years ago or so, for thousands of years, 91 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: doggerland was still above sea level, but the warming climate 92 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: and the melting glaciers transformed it from a cold, arid 93 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: step a tundra like landscape into an increasingly lush land 94 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: of forests and then marshes, rivers and lakes, and many 95 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: sources describe this post glacial landscape as a kind of 96 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: hunter gatherer paradise. So who were these hunter gatherers? Well, 97 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: there were multiple waves of them. In fact, there's some 98 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: indication that the human relat the ancient human relative Homo 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: antecessor had existed in Doggerland going way back during the 100 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: cold arid Step period, the Neanderthals occupied Doggerland. It would 101 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: have been a harsh existence. This would be a very 102 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: cold and dry place where people would have survived by 103 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:50,239 Speaker 1: hunting large animals. But Neanderthals did occupy the dog Land Step. 104 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: We know that through evidence of artifacts axeheads and other 105 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: flint artifacts that have in some cases been clearly subjected 106 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: to a type of birch bark tar that the Neanderthals 107 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: would use that they manufactured. And then after the Neanderthals 108 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: during the Holocene, when the area was warming up, it 109 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: was clearly inhabited by Middle Stone Age Homo sapiens. And 110 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: the article in Archaeology Magazine that I mentioned a minute 111 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: ago quotes a curator of prehistoric collections at the National 112 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: Museum of Antiquities in Leyden named Luke Amkroutz, who says 113 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: quote during the Holocene, Doggerland was a wooded environment, but 114 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: with really extensive coastlines and enormous wetlands. These were the 115 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: richest areas to live in. There were forest resources, deer, 116 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: wild boar, and berries, but also fish, migrating birds, otters, 117 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: and beavers. It was a Garden of Eden for them, 118 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: a wetland wonderland. So if you were a hunter gatherer 119 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: in Mesolithic Europe, especially after the glaciers began to melt 120 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: and the climate began to warm, dog ker Land was awesome. 121 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: Jason Urbanis, writing this article, says that it is quote 122 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: by any estimation, the most attractive landscape in northwestern Europe 123 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: for Mesolithic hunter gatherers, and perhaps the continent's most densely 124 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: populated region at the time. So sometimes when you think 125 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: about a previously exposed piece of land that is in 126 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,559 Speaker 1: many sources referred to as quote a land bridge, because 127 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: it is what bridged the mainland continental Europe with Great Britain, 128 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: you think of a kind of transitional place, you know 129 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: that people just walked across. But no, it's not just 130 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: a transitional place that allowed people to get from one 131 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: highland to another. This was apparently about the best place 132 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: you could be in this area of Europe at the time. 133 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: It was full of resources. 134 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: This is also amazing that he directly compares it to 135 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: the Garden of Eden. That he compares it to not 136 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: only a land of plenty but a utope which lines 137 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: up with so many of these ideas of a lost 138 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: and or sunken land, of a land from which people 139 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: came but can no longer return to or may one 140 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: day return to. But in this case it does seem 141 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: to line up with the idea of it actually being 142 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: a land of plenty, actually being a place where resources 143 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: were abundant, but. 144 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: Much like the Garden of Eden, it couldn't last forever. 145 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Though in this case it apparently has nothing to do 146 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: with a snake. It has to do with in fact, 147 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: the exact same forces that made it a land of 148 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: plenty in abundance in the beginning ended up dooming it. 149 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: So a warming climate and melting glaciers first changed dogger 150 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: Land from an arid tundra into a lush paradise, and 151 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: then the same trends transformed it to the drowned Stone 152 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Age graveyard it is today. 153 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 154 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: So from the end of the Last Ice Age, the 155 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: level of the North Sea steadily rose. Ice is melting, 156 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: the world is warm, the sea levels arising, and Urbanis 157 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: writes in the Archaeology article that for a period of 158 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: roughly three thousand years, the sea rose six feet every 159 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: hundred years and then adding to the steady creep up 160 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: of the water line, there was a sudden cataclysmic event 161 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: that would have horribly affected the Mesolithic populations living in 162 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: the remaining coastal areas of that region, towards the end 163 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: of that warming period, so more than eight thousand years ago, 164 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: around sixty two hundred BCE. Again, at this point, much 165 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: of Doggerland had already been submerged, but what was left 166 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: above the water line was hit with a catastrophic tsunami 167 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: caused by an underwater landslide off the coast of Norway. 168 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: It was actually one of a series of these underwater 169 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: land slide events known as the Storega slides str GGA. 170 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: And I've seen different estimates for the exact height and 171 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: power of the tsunami wave. That article I mentioned in 172 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: Science by Andrew Curry cites an estimate of at least 173 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: ten meters high for the wave that hit Doggerland, but 174 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: a twenty twenty one study of its effects on the 175 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: eastern coast of Scotland, so this is looking at Scotland 176 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: analyzed soil deposits to estimate that the water might have 177 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: come as far as eighteen miles inland. 178 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: Wow. Well, I mean even just looking at the like 179 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: the ten meter high, that would be almost thirty three 180 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: feet high. 181 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: Right, So, if you are in range of the tsunami, 182 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: catastrophic event also may have had some effect in like 183 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: moving around sediments and possibly washing out some existing areas 184 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: of land. 185 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: Right. Right, that again we're already exposed due to the 186 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: rising the sea levels. 187 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: Right. And actually one of the last pieces of land 188 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: remaining above water from Doggerland was the now submerged Dogger 189 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: Bank from which Doggerland gets its name. It remained as 190 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: an island for a while, so Doggerland came to be 191 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: known as Doggerland when the name was given to it 192 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: by an archaeologist named Briany Coles. And it was named 193 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: after the sand bank in the North Sea known as 194 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: the Dogger Bank, which got its name because it was 195 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: a popular fishing spot used by these Dutch boats called doggers. 196 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: So the dogger boats go out, they fish around the 197 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: sand bank. There's good catch there, and those doggers give 198 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: their name to the area. And apparently that that sand 199 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: bank was once an island, that was one of the 200 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: last parts of it left. Now, there's an interesting contradiction 201 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: which is that we know that it was probably one 202 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: of the most densely populated places in Stone Age Europe. 203 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: It was full of abundant resources. There were lots of 204 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: humans living there in the Middle Stone Age. But it's 205 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: hard to study archaeologically for obvious reasons. You can't just 206 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: go dig. It's underwater, and also the water is deep 207 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: and cold and murky and stormy. It's just a difficult 208 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: place to explore, even with divers. So how can archaeologists 209 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: learn things about Doggerland other than just waiting for the 210 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: occasional artifact to get dredged up in a trawling net 211 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: like we talked about with the Colinda Harpoon. Well, actually, 212 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: this is one of the main subjects of that article 213 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: in Archaeology magazine Mapping a Vanished Landscape by Jason Arbanis, 214 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: and it talks about some interesting ways that scholars have 215 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: come up with or come across by accident to study 216 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: Doggerland and see what we can learn about it. So 217 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: one effort described in this article is associated with a 218 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: University of Bradford archaeologist named Vince Gaffney and colleagues. Gaffney 219 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: is quoted extensively in this article and he talks about 220 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,119 Speaker 1: how he and colleagues used data from seismic reflections surveys 221 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: originally done by offshore oil and gas companies to find 222 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: mineral deposits. So the way this works is that you 223 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: have a ship, it goes out in the water. It 224 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: emits sound waves into the water which bounce off of 225 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: the seafloor and then are picked up by ship based detectors. 226 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: And the physical features of the seafloor affect how the 227 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: sound is altered when it bounces back, and then this 228 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: information can be used to map shapes and contours and 229 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: anomalies deep under the water. Now they figured out that 230 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: that same seismic data, which was again proprietary, it was 231 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: owned by these energy companies, how that could be used 232 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: by archaeologists to assemble an approximate picture of what Doggerland 233 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: was like before it flooded, to study the hidden landscape. 234 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: And the archaeologists were actually able to get data from 235 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: I think multiple companies, at least one company called Petroleum 236 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: Geoservices or PGS, And they talk about how they use 237 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: data from this company to map a patch of sea 238 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: roughly twenty three hundred square miles in size, and when 239 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: they assembled the map, they realized they were looking at 240 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: a place where a large river had once cut through 241 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: what is now the submerged dogg Or Bank. So imagine 242 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: that you're like looking at this seismic reflection data and 243 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: then you realize it's showing you a map of what 244 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: the land looked like before the water covered it, and 245 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: you can see the river bed and all that. 246 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 247 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: And at the time of this article, their maps had 248 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: expanded to cover more than seventeen thousand square miles, so 249 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: they know a lot more about the landscape of Doggerland 250 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: than we did in the past. They have maps depicting 251 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: a lost landscape of lakes, rivers, hills and valleys. So 252 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: that's one way of understanding Doggerland is with this mapping project. 253 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: But there's another interesting thing this mentioned in both of 254 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: these articles, which is that, of course, many more Mesolithic 255 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: artifacts from Doggerland have been found since the Colinda Harpoon. 256 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: There are lots of them now, especially a lot of 257 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: these spear tips and sharp points, and a lot of 258 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: them have been found as an accidental byproduct of beach 259 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: fill efforts that are used to help, in one sense, 260 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: to protect the coastlines of places like the Netherlands from 261 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: rising sea levels, but also to counteract coastal erosion. So 262 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: basically you have these big boats that go out and 263 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: dredge up gigantic amounts of sand from the sea bottom 264 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: miles off shore, and then they come back and they 265 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: dump it at the water's edge to expand the existing 266 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: land footprint, maybe to build more harbor infrastructure or something, 267 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: or to fix roading coastline, or to build up a 268 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: sand barrier to help protect the inland areas from rising seawater. 269 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: And it just so happens that when they do this, 270 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: when these boats dredge up the seafloor for Beachville, they 271 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: often end up depositing previously buried artifacts of Doggerland on 272 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: the beaches where they can be picked up by collectors. 273 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: And these articles describe archaeologists who are like in contact 274 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: with these sort of beach walking artifact collectors and they're 275 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: just getting artifacts from Doggerland all the time. Now people 276 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: are writing them to say, oh, here they've got arrowheads, axes, 277 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: barbed spear tips made from antler or bone, much like 278 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: the Kolinda harpoon. Remember that was made from the antler 279 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: of a red deer, and there's a lot we can 280 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: learn from this stuff because the low oxygen soil deposits 281 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the North Sea tend to preserve 282 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: organic materials very well. So the researchers have been able 283 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: to do a lot of analysis on these organic remains, 284 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: including skeletal remains of the humans from these periods, and 285 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: this includes DNA analysis, so we know a lot more 286 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: than we used to. The downside, of course, is that 287 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: if you are just finding like artifacts or human remains 288 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: that have been scooped up in this haphazard process where 289 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: they're dredged from the ocean floor and then spit out 290 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: on a beach somewhere, where you know nothing about the 291 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: context really. I mean, you might have some rough ideas 292 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: about where it comes from, but archaeologists want not just 293 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: an artifact, but they want to understand the context of 294 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: the artifact, what soil did it come from, where exactly 295 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: was that located, what was the situation in which this 296 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: artifact would have originally been deposited. 297 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: So we're kind of like robbing future archaeologists who might 298 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: have clearer maps and therefore a little better idea about 299 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 2: where to search for such artifacts in these sunken lands, 300 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: and also better means of actually investigating these sites and 301 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 2: exploring them in a way that retains some level of 302 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: context about the remains. 303 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: That's right, and so the archaeologists described in these articles 304 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: have actually in some cases been able to identify artifacts 305 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: in their original context. So one question it asks is, Okay, 306 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: so we know that Doggerland was probably a very desirable 307 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: location during this warming period, for the few thousand years 308 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: that it was warming and wet but not yet submerged. 309 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: So when people lived there, where did they live? Finding 310 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: the location of settlements as obviously difficult underwater, but they 311 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: say that generally the people of Mesolithic Europe were nomadic, 312 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: but if there was a sheet with you know, if 313 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: there was a great abundance of resources, they might create 314 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: semi permanent settlements. And the places you would look for 315 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: those semi permanent settlements might be things might be on 316 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: like high ground, close to wetland areas. So the wetlands 317 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: would have resources that you would want, but you would 318 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: want an elevated area above that. Now I'm going to 319 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: read a brief passage from this article in Archaeology Magazine 320 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: describing efforts by Vince Gaffney and colleagues to identify an 321 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: underwater site with the help of this mapping, and then 322 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: extract artifacts from the underwater site so you'd understand more 323 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: about the original context. One of these sites, quote was 324 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: a shallow, fifteen mile long seafloor ridge known as Brown Bank, 325 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: where a wealth of archaeological objects, including a thirteen thousand 326 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: year old engraved aurex bone, had been snared by fishing 327 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: trawlers in the past. The other was an area along 328 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: a now submerged river channel and estuary off the Norfolk 329 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: Coast known as the Southern River. Although the weather did 330 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: not fully cooperate, cutting the team's time at sea short, 331 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: they were able to scoop up sediment deposits from the 332 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: Southern River estuary site. When they examined the material, they 333 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: were stunned to find it contained a fragment of a 334 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: stone tool known as a hammerstone. So I was pretty 335 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: amazed by that. The idea that they could use these 336 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: maps to find sites at the bottom of the North 337 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: Sea where they would expect humans to have lived because 338 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: of the value of those sites compared to the natural 339 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: resources around them, and then go scoop up sediment from 340 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: under the water and actually find human artifacts where they 341 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: expected to look for them. That is impressive, And so 342 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: the article goes on to say that while this individual 343 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: find of the hammerstone might not be incredibly significant, the 344 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: fact that this technique generally works for could or generally 345 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: could work for finding artifacts of this type could teach 346 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: us a lot more about the societies of ancient Doggerland. 347 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: Now another archaeological note that I wanted to mention this 348 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: is from that article in Science by Andrew Curry from 349 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: January twenty twenty, and just as a funny side note, 350 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: the dateline on this report is from a place in 351 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: the Netherlands called Monster. I don't know if I'm pronouncing 352 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: it right, but that is a town in South Holland, Monster, 353 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: which is near a beach that had been constructed via 354 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: the sand motor process that I was talking about. So 355 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: a lot of Doggerland artifacts and human remains could be 356 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: found on the beach there and are found by people 357 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: walking around looking for artifacts. So this article covers a 358 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: lot of the same ground as the other one I 359 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: was talking about. But one interesting question it asks is, Okay, 360 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: we've got a good amount now of physical evidence available 361 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: from Doggerland, does it reveal anything about what ancient people 362 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: did in response to these steadily rising sea levels, And 363 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: there actually has been some research on this that they 364 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: of course know that the rising water gradually transformed Doggerland 365 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: from a land of rivers and forests into a wetland 366 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: with marshes and estuaries in the lower lying areas and 367 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: then scattered highlands which stayed drier. And analysis of human 368 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: bones recovered from across this transition period shows changes in 369 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: what people ate. So as the landscape changed, people apparent 370 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: currently shifted their diet from land based animals to freshwater fish. 371 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: And then one last little fact I wanted to mention 372 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: that I came across. This was in an article by 373 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: Johannis Decker at All published in the Journal of Archaeological 374 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: Science Reports in twenty twenty one called human and servid 375 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: osseous materials used for barbed point manufacture in Mesolithic Doggarland. 376 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: The fact was sort of contained in the title there. 377 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: We have already talked about how a lot of these 378 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: sharp spear points that have been recovered from the people 379 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: who lived here were made of antler and bone. These 380 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: are primarily animal bones. Of course, you know, so they 381 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: might be using parts of a deer carcass or something 382 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: like that to make a lot of these weapons. But 383 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: apparently the authors of this study report at least two 384 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: barbed points like spear or harpoon tips that were made 385 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: out of human bone. 386 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: That's fascinating and it makes one wonder, you know, what 387 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: could have been the context for that. Was it a 388 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: matter of of some sort of a supply shortage with 389 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: you know, deer or elkbones. Was it maybe something that 390 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: was ritualistic, Was this, you know, the way to honor 391 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: ancestors or you know, or was it just hey, we 392 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: need more bone and we have some human bones on hand. 393 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 2: Were these enemies? Were these friends? So many questions. 394 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, the mind always races when you get a detail 395 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: like that. You think like, is this was this a 396 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: question of efficiency or question of choice? 397 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, this whole discussion of Doggerland has been fascinating. 398 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: I really wasn't familiar with this this topic at all. 399 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was not really either. I mean reading about Doggerland, 400 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: including some of the articles I've talked about today, is 401 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: sort of what made me want to discuss it in 402 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: the context of this broader subject of submerged lands, and 403 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: of course it is not the only one that's right. 404 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: I want to come back to the topic of lost 405 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 2: islands that we touched on briefly in the last episode. 406 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: I was reading about the topic in a book titled 407 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: Lost Islands. The Story of Islands that Have Vanished from 408 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: Nautical Charts by Henry Stommel. This this is a really, 409 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 2: really fun book. He spends a lot of time just 410 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: talking about like why why people are just so fascinated 411 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 2: with islands in general. It talks about like just the 412 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: idea of an island is attractive to us. You know, 413 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: it's kind of like this this miniature world that we 414 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: can comprehend in our head and so therefore real and 415 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, definitely real islands, existing islands are of great 416 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: interest to us, and the idea of lost islands as well. 417 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: This is only half formed, but I feel like we 418 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: are attracted to stories that are set in the location 419 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: with clear boundaries. Like we like stories that are set 420 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: in a particular house. You know, there's like a haunted mansion, 421 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: and we just know the stories about that mansion. It's there, 422 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: and the island is kind of the same way, you know, 423 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: It's like it's got a clear boundary. It's surrounded by water, 424 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: so we have an idea of the setting that is 425 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: fully contained. 426 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they often do. You know, we've talked about 427 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: the island ecosystems before. You know, you'll you'll often encounter 428 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: a situation where an island feels like a continent made small. 429 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 2: You know, you'll have that diversity. You'll have the dry 430 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: arid lands, you'll have the rainforest, even snow tipped mountains 431 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: in some cases, and you'll have it all in just 432 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: such a tight and contained space relatively speaking. Now, the 433 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: author of this book, Stonewall, points out that nineteenth century 434 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: nautical charts feature a good two hundred islands that we 435 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: know now just don't exist, and he writes that most 436 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: of these were situations of poor location determination and or 437 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: reporting errors. So, in one example, nineteenth century cartographers ended 438 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 2: up including Gang's Island in the Pacific, apparently as a 439 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: concession to various reports of a reef or an island 440 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: at its sighted coordinates. So you know, you'd imagine the 441 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: situation where the map makers are like, Okay, well, some 442 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: people are saying there's something there. Some people were not. 443 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: Let's just go ahead and include it. You know, maybe 444 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: it's a situation where it's just safer to say, Okay, 445 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: we'll put it on there. But by thirty three it 446 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 2: was clear that there was nothing there. 447 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: That raises an interesting question. If you have ambiguous evidence, 448 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: I'll say, your evidence, you think it's like fifty to 449 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: fifty that an island is in a place or not, 450 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: And you're a map maker, should you err on the 451 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: side of putting it there or not putting it there? 452 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? 453 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: Like which would do which would do the least harm 454 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: if you were wrong? 455 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think it's that's a fair consideration. He 456 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: also points out that other matters were situations of fraud 457 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: or deception. May come back to that idea in the 458 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: next episode. He also mentions optical illusions as we've noted 459 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: already and you know, and we discussed in our Fata 460 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: Morgana episodes in the past. But he also stresses quote 461 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: that some volcanic islands do pop up and down, and 462 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: this is this is the this is what I want 463 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: to dive into for the remainder of this episode. He 464 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: mentioned specifically the alleged islands of Los Tuanahi or Tuanaki 465 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: near the Cook Islands in the South Pacific. This is 466 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 2: one of several sites noted in the book Vanished Islands 467 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: and Hidden Continents of the Pacific by Patrick Nunn. His website, 468 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: by the way, is Patrick Nunn. That's You in dot org, 469 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: a really good website with links to all his books. 470 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: He's a scientist and author of multiple books dealing with 471 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: sunken lands, and seems to be one of the leading 472 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: living authorities on this subject. In Vanished Islands, None lists 473 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: twenty one Pacific islands that he classifies as quote satisfactorily 474 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: authenticated or partially authenticated islands and then in parentheses probably 475 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: real islands, while also identifying a longer list of islands 476 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: that are likely mythical. And I have to say, I 477 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: really wasn't expecting that there to be so many, you know, 478 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: there to be a list of twenty one Pacific islands 479 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: that are retained at least within oral traditions of the 480 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: people who have lived in this area, that have just vanished, 481 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: that have that that we're real at one point and 482 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: are now gone. But of course, as we'll discuss, it 483 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: is a geologically active area. 484 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so what would be some examples here? 485 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 2: Well, he brings up the traditions of the people of 486 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: the Marquesas Islands in French Polynesia, and apparently there are 487 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: multiple oral traditions of often catastrophic land sinkings. So really, 488 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: ultimately exactly the sort of catastrophic island sinks into the 489 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: ocean sort of events that may pop into your head 490 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: and that you might think, well, this is more like 491 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that occurs just in fictions and 492 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: fantasy and so forth. But None stresses that you know, 493 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: these have likely occurred throughout human history in these given areas, 494 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: throughout throughout the history of human occupation of these areas, 495 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: with fresh incidents, fresh sinkings, fresh events rejuvenating older traditions 496 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: and older ideas, as well as myths concerning a lot 497 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: lost islands that align with our previously discussed tropes of 498 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: utopias and Golden ages. None rights quote. Many such stories 499 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: have been believed in literally so that at various times, 500 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 2: oftentimes of famine, people have searched of these fabled islands 501 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: of plenty, but only one canoe has ever was ever 502 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: heard from again, So you know, you have these sorts 503 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: of stories where there was this place that we came from, 504 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: this place that was known and it was rich and 505 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: it was abundant, and during times of famine it might 506 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: be a place that people seek for again but cannot find. 507 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: So what you would get is the story of the 508 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: failed attempt to rediscover the lost land. 509 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so it would seem. And so this is 510 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: again getting into that area where myth and reality kind 511 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: of feed into each other and it gets very very complex. 512 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: There are so many ways to look at any given 513 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: belief system. But to be clear, there are numerous examples, 514 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: according to the NUN of populated islands in this region 515 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: that sank beneath the waves. One example is tion Imanu, 516 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: previously located in a very seismically active part of the 517 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: Solomon Islands. In its current reduced state, it's known as 518 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: lark Shoal And apparently the sinking of Tanemanu was really rapid, 519 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: with only a few individuals escaping via canoe, but enough 520 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: escaped to pass on their accounts into the oral tradition. 521 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: And this is interesting because some of the details line 522 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: up with what we were just talking about with Doggerland, 523 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: but none says that the island was apparently affected by 524 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: a large seafloor earthquake that destabilized the underwater ridge that 525 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: the island was situated on, causing it to slide into 526 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: deeper waters as tsunami waves washed over the land. 527 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so this was not just continually increasing sea levels, 528 00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: This was a rapid, sudden seismic event that the is 529 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: a sudden end to the land. 530 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is a real cataclysm. This is 531 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 2: I kind of ironically the sort of thing that the 532 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: imagination may summon when you bring up the idea of 533 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: Atlantis sinking into the ocean. But I do have to 534 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: point out that he stresses that nothing you could describe 535 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: as a sunken continent exists in the Pacific Ocean. The 536 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: various lost islands he references are not at all on 537 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: the scale of pseudoscientific lands like Moo and Limuria. 538 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: Right, So you really can't interpret any of the real 539 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: world examples as giving credence to any of these stories 540 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: of lost civilizations like Atlantis or Limoria or whatever, just 541 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: because like the details don't line up at all. 542 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: Right, So none explores various islands at length in a 543 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: couple of the books that I looked at, but one 544 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: I found really interesting. It kind of lines up with 545 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: a lot of what we're talking about in these episodes, 546 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: and it's the land of Hawaiki. So in various Polynesian 547 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: mythologies and under some different specific names, this is the 548 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: homeland from which the people departed to populate the islands 549 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: of the Pacific. It takes on the character of not 550 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: only a place of origin, but especially with the Maori 551 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: spiritual underworld and or a land beneath the sea, a 552 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: place where the gods reside and the world where souls 553 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: return to and none points of that. Hawaki is generally 554 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: positioned in the west in these various traditions, which he 555 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 2: says certainly matches up with accepted migration patterns of humans, 556 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: you know, the last wave of true human exploration on 557 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 2: our planet. But he also says that as far as 558 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: mythology is concerned, it also could be more aligned with 559 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: ideas concerning death in the setting of the sun. So 560 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: just a reminder that there's so many factors to consider 561 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 2: in any given belief system and you ultimately, you know, 562 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: can't latch onto just like one explanation for why people 563 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: believe in something right, And he also stresses that we 564 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: should be culturally respectful and scientifically cautious about jumping to 565 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: any conclusions about Hawakei, which was you know, seems like 566 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: it was likely a real place or real places, not 567 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 2: the same island of origin for all peoples in this 568 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: region and all cultures. But we should be careful about 569 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: saying that it was an island that sank beneath the 570 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: waves in this case known rights that While some pseudoscience 571 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: writers have kind of picked this up and run with it, 572 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: linking it to concepts like Lemuria, like mu, the idea 573 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: that Hawaiki sank is not a widespread detail in actual 574 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: Pacific island myths and was likely an invention of Western writers. 575 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. So maybe people reporting the stories told 576 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: by other cultures but with their own gloss and the 577 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: sort of background of Atlantis knowledge and stuff like that. 578 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I guess you could also approach like 579 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: you could also be reading about these other islands that 580 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 2: did sink, that are lost, and you know, you end 581 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: up looking at that evidence and then you take into 582 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 2: account this tradition as well. So Nun's work is really interesting. 583 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: He's been one of many voices stressing the threat that 584 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: climate change and rising sea levels pose to islands in 585 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: the West Pacific, where sea levels have risen at two 586 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 2: or three times the global average over the past few decades, 587 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: thus endangering not only the livelihoods and culture of modern inhabitants, 588 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: but endangering their histories as well. Pacific island reefs, which 589 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: only formed in the last four thousand years, according to Nune, 590 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 2: are particularly vulnerable to erosion via rising sea levels. He 591 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: stressed this in a twenty seventeen article for The Conversation. 592 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: Now it may come back to more of Nun's work 593 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: in the next episode. Again, there's so much of it. 594 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: If you're by this topic, I definitely recommend checking out 595 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: his work. But he also points to some other natural 596 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 2: phenomena that have led to past mistakes in erroneous island identification. 597 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: So these errors and saying I think there's an island here, 598 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: and then it turns out there's nothing there. 599 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so the picture I'm getting correct me if this 600 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: is wrong. Is there are a lot of stories of 601 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: vanished islands. There are a few cases where it seems like, yes, 602 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: this really did happen, but the majority of cases seem 603 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: to be a mistake or a legend of some kind, 604 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of different explanations correct explanations 605 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: for the mistakes. So yeah, what would those be. 606 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: Well, one of them that he brings up is, of 607 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 2: course floating vegetation. We've discussed this before. You know, things 608 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: like the sarcasm, a weed and so forth. You have 609 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: some sort of a big mat of vegetation out there, 610 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 2: And especially if you're unfamiliar with the area, if you've 611 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 2: never encountered this before and you're looking at it from 612 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 2: a distance, you might think, oh, well, there's some sort 613 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 2: of land out there. I'm not saying a mistake it 614 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: for like a huge, robust island, but you might mistake 615 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: it for something worth marking on a nautical map. The 616 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: other one, the other possibility that I was not prepared for, 617 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: that he mentions in passing, is that it could be 618 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: that what you're gazing out there is not a reef, 619 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 2: is not something you know, poking out of the water, 620 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: or even like a large expanse of of some some 621 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 2: sort of land mass. It could just be the white 622 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: scum of the pololo worm. 623 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: I've never even heard of this. What what is this? 624 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 2: So these are marine anlid worms of the Pacific Islands 625 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: that engage in mass spawning, and it's it's a weird one. 626 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 2: So these creatures live in the seafloor substrate, and they 627 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: they look like when we say worms, I mean they're 628 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 2: not like earth worms. They have various appendages, you know, 629 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: and they have these kind of like tentaclely things on 630 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 2: their their heads. Uh, they're you know, they're they're not. 631 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say they're grotesque or anything. They're kind of 632 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 2: beautiful in their own way. To me. 633 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: They kind of look like a cross between an earthworm 634 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: and a centipede. 635 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, imagine something like that living in the seafloor substrate. 636 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: So then they live down there, they live in their 637 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 2: holes and so forth. But as breeding season approaches, they 638 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: begin to change. So first the tail of the worm 639 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: undergoes a great deal of alteration. Muscles and organs degenerate, 640 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: the appendages down there become more paddle like, and the 641 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: reproductive organs grow. They swell in size and end up 642 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 2: taking up more of the real estate and that back 643 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 2: half of the organism. And then, in line with the 644 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 2: phases of the moon, all of the pololo worms stick 645 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: their back halves out of their holes and then they rupture. 646 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 2: They break in two. The tail section full of reproductive 647 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: cells and again augmented now for swimming. It's broken off 648 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: and it swims up to the surface, while the rest 649 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 2: of the worm stays down in the seafloor muck and regenerates. 650 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: So the part that stays down there and regenerates is 651 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 2: the atok and then the epitopes are the bits that 652 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: go swimming up to the surface. 653 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so they're going up to the surface taking sex 654 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: cells with them, yes, yeah, Okay. 655 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: So they go up to the surface and again all 656 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: at once. We're talking in the tens of thousands. This 657 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 2: is a mass spawning event. And then they just ride 658 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: around and release their gam meats. So it sounds like 659 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: a site to behold now. As with a lot of 660 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 2: mass spawning incidents in the ocean, this of course attracts 661 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 2: the attention of a lot of predators. If you're some 662 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: sort of a predatory fish in the vicinity and this 663 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: is occurring, well you've got more than an easy meal 664 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: on your hands. You've got to go there and get 665 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 2: a bite. And this applies to human beings as well. 666 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 2: Plolo worms and their relatives are considered quite a delicacy 667 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: in various cultures. 668 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: I love this now. 669 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 2: I was obviously, I was looking around for a little 670 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: more insight on this. I wanted to know, like, what 671 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 2: are they cooking with these? So what are they preparing? 672 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 2: And I did find an article on gastro obscura by 673 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: Sam O'Brien pointing out that, yeah, especially in Samoan traditions, 674 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 2: the pololos are often fried up with eggs. It's they're 675 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: baked into bread with coconut milk and onions, or they're 676 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 2: kind of like sprinkled or spread on toast. The author 677 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 2: here she describes it as a seaweed or caviar flavor, 678 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: but with a noodle texture. And I've seen it elsewhere 679 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 2: described as quote the caviaar of the Pacific. 680 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: Ooh yeah, so savory, seafoody kind of taste. That sounds wonderful. Actually, 681 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: I want to try it. 682 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. I included a photo here for you, Joe, and 683 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 2: I recommend everyone look up that article or just look 684 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: up pictures in general. And the picture I have here 685 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 2: for you, Joe is I believe it's a piece of 686 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 2: toast with this pilolo spread on top. And yeah, it 687 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: looks nice, reminiscent of like a cream spinach. I guess 688 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 2: just based on appearances, but again, the taste profile is 689 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 2: apparently more like caviare meets noodles. 690 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's just the lighting in this picture, 691 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: it almost looks kind of blue. It's like a like 692 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: a blue yeah, wilted wilted green kind of appearance spread 693 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 1: across a piece of toast. 694 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah. I believe it's also a delicacy. A 695 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 2: related organism is a delicacy in Japan. So if we 696 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 2: have any listeners out there who've tried tried these dishes 697 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: or related dishes, please read, write in and share. We'd 698 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: love to hear your take on it. 699 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: Well, I did not expect things to go in this direction. 700 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: I am mighty intrigued. I do want to try this food. 701 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: But wait a minute, I'm we got to convict. How 702 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: could this be mistaken for an island? 703 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: Okay, so, after the breeding is finished, after the predators 704 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 2: have had their fill, after humans have come and harvested 705 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 2: their share of the of the spoils, the rest of 706 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 2: it again, the breeding is carried out, but apparently the 707 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: rest of it then just kind of rots and disintegrates 708 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: on the surface of the water into this white oily scum. 709 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 2: I found multiple especially older like Western descriptions, clearly describing 710 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 2: it as a scum, an oily scum, And apparently this 711 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 2: is what we could then potentially mistake for an island, 712 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 2: I'm guessing, especially by individuals who are not familiar with 713 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 2: the organisms, because you know, obviously there would be locals 714 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 2: who would know about this because they know what is 715 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 2: left behind after they've gone out and harvested their share 716 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 2: of the pololo worms. But if you didn't know what 717 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 2: you're looking at, you might see like a big sort 718 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 2: of gleaming, oily white mass and you might think that 719 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 2: it is some sort of a land mass. 720 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: Well, so this reminds me of something we've actually talked 721 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 1: about on the show before, which is pummice rafting phenomenon. 722 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes after a volcanic eruption in one of these islands, 723 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: there will be a great outflow of pummus low density 724 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: rocks that actually rocks that float on the surface of 725 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: the water and all kind of clump together. And if 726 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: you look up pictures of this, it looks extremely weird. 727 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: It's like a parking lot floating in the middle of 728 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: the ocean. So all of these floating phenomena, Yeah, you 729 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 1: can have a floating vegetation potentially mistaken for something that 730 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,399 Speaker 1: you know you should mark as an island on a map. 731 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: You I guess could imagine a pummus raft, though that's 732 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: a fairly transient phenomenon that related to these volcanic eruptions. 733 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: And now we've got to add a worm sex to 734 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: the list. Worm sex island. 735 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: Worm sex island. Yeah, something that again would be it 736 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 2: would it would It would occur every year, but it 737 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 2: wouldn't always be out there, and it seems entirely likely 738 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 2: that the foreigners to the to these seas mind encounter 739 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 2: it and make note of it, and you could end 740 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 2: up with an erroneous island identification. So yeah, I was 741 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 2: not expecting to talk about worm reproduction in this episode, 742 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 2: but that's where the research took us. 743 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,439 Speaker 1: Amazing. But hey, we are not done, are we. We've 744 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: got to talk about more sunken lands, So we will 745 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: be back next time to explore this topic further. 746 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 2: That's right. In the meantime, will remind you that Stuff 747 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science podcast, with 748 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 2: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do list mails 749 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,479 Speaker 2: on Mondays. On Wednesdays, we tend to do a short 750 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 2: form artifact or monster fact episode, and on Fridays we 751 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to watch a weird movie 752 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. If you are on social media, 753 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 2: follow our accounts because they are they're active once more. 754 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 2: If you use Instagram, look us up specifically. Stbym podcast 755 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 2: is our handle. There's an old one that has sunken 756 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 2: beneath the waves of social media, but stbym podcast is 757 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 2: the active one, and I think there's some pretty fun 758 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 2: stuff going up there, so so it's one way to 759 00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 2: keep up. 760 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: With this huge things. As always to our excellent audio 761 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: producer JJ Posway. If you would like to get in 762 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 763 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 764 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 765 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 766 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 767 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 768 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.