Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is Steve. Before this show starts, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to give everybody a little heads up. It
Speaker 1: turns out we found out after we had recorded this
Speaker 1: episode that we were having a bit of an issue
Speaker 1: with a piece of our equipment. So the audio and
Speaker 1: spots is a little off. Did the best we could
Speaker 1: to fix it, but it's not perfect, so at times
Speaker 1: might be a little rough. Bear with us through this.
Speaker 1: We figured out what it is, we fixed it for
Speaker 1: future episodes. But with that having been said, on with
Speaker 1: the show Thinking Sideways, I'm it stories of things we
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways, the hard hitting Internet podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah so I'm Joe, joined as always by my lovely
Speaker 1: co host and Steve. They're both very lovely. I feel
Speaker 1: very lovely today. Yeah, you look pretty lovely. We're going
Speaker 1: to mention it earlier. My new outfit. Yeah it's good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he plucked his eyebrows too. They needed it. Well. Okay,
Speaker 1: for those of you who are new to this podcast,
Speaker 1: there's probably still a few people who are. Well. We
Speaker 1: get together and we're just looking un solved mysteries, and
Speaker 1: of course we solved them, well, not very often, but
Speaker 1: occasionally I think I think we've based some good headway
Speaker 1: in a few of them. So today we're going to
Speaker 1: tackle get another unsolved mystery. So if you're all already yes,
Speaker 1: realized that was a request for response. I thought it
Speaker 1: was rhetorical. I want to make sure you guys have
Speaker 1: to put the phones awaste up texting whatever, Okay, so
Speaker 1: just tweet. Also, I should mention this story was a
Speaker 1: listeners suggestion. It was suggested by Stephanie. Thank you, Stephanie.
Speaker 1: And I also want to give a shout out to Cindy.
Speaker 1: Cindy as a newer listener. And the funny thing is
Speaker 1: is that I would had been doing some research on
Speaker 1: this very story because I was planning on doing it,
Speaker 1: and then I checked our email and there was an
Speaker 1: email from none other than Cindy suggesting this story, which
Speaker 1: I thought was kind of funny. That's a coincidence, but
Speaker 1: so thank you Cindy, Thank you Stephanie. Our story begins
Speaker 1: in UH two thousand and three when a guy named
Speaker 1: Blake Ruff who lived in Longview, Texas, met a girl
Speaker 1: named Laurie Kennedy. Her full name was actually Laurie Erica
Speaker 1: Kennedy and they met at church in Dallas. Laurie had
Speaker 1: lived in Texas for about fifteen years. She'd moved there.
Speaker 1: She was originally from Arizona. So she told him she
Speaker 1: had a degree in business and it was a quote
Speaker 1: unquote marketing consultant. Shopper shopper, Yeah, I guess, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was basically all she did. Yeah, yeah, the mystery shopper so, uh,
Speaker 1: which is really apropos Yeah, I know. They So any way,
Speaker 1: they started hanging out. They got married in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four, like a year after they met, right properly
Speaker 1: that Yeah, So Blake was very close to his family,
Speaker 1: and of course they being a very friendly bunch of
Speaker 1: Texas folks. Uh, they wanted to meet her right away,
Speaker 1: and they got together for launch and they started asking
Speaker 1: her about her family and where she was from. She
Speaker 1: was very secretive about the whole thing. She didn't want
Speaker 1: to talk about it at all, uh, and was kind
Speaker 1: of put them off a little bit. She she didn't
Speaker 1: say as much as she said. Her parents were dead.
Speaker 1: Her father had apparently been a failed stock stockbroker, and
Speaker 1: the parents had both died, and she had no siblings,
Speaker 1: no living relatives. And she hadn't had a good past.
Speaker 1: Her childhood was rough apparently, and that's that's about all
Speaker 1: she would say. She also she told Blake that she
Speaker 1: had destroyed any evidence of her family past, family life,
Speaker 1: like letters and photographs and things like that. And so
Speaker 1: when they started talking about marriage, Blake's mother, of course,
Speaker 1: wanted to put a wedding announcement in local paper like
Speaker 1: you do in Texas, like you do everywhere, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so Laurie was all against that. She said, we
Speaker 1: don't do things that way. So very strange, kind of
Speaker 1: secretive person. So moving forward, they were married, they started
Speaker 1: trying to have a child, and they bought a house
Speaker 1: in Leonard, Texas, which is about a hundred twenty five
Speaker 1: miles from Longview, which is where the folks live. They
Speaker 1: were a two maker parcel and the neighbors didn't have
Speaker 1: much interaction with them. They said that Laurie especially was
Speaker 1: not sociable at all. One neighbor said that in the
Speaker 1: six years that they had lived there, she socialized just
Speaker 1: once in the entire six years. Didn't I thought that
Speaker 1: There was the recounting of, you know, often seeing her
Speaker 1: in the evening hours walking around the property like eyes down,
Speaker 1: refusing to make eye contact with anyone, kind of antisocial
Speaker 1: disassociated behavior. Yeah, she was. She was a fairly antisocial person. Well,
Speaker 1: and my question when they say socializing with her is
Speaker 1: that they had a hey, how you doing? Oh good? Hey,
Speaker 1: good to see drinks or barbecue? Barbecue. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: what he meant by socializing, And maybe that just meant
Speaker 1: they were all walking around and they just chatted about
Speaker 1: the weather for a minute. Yeah, but I didn't get
Speaker 1: the sense that there were any you know, hey, how
Speaker 1: are you good, how are you interactions outside of you know,
Speaker 1: the one time of socializing. Yeah. I mean I have
Speaker 1: neighbors like that. I've waved at him and say hi,
Speaker 1: and they waved back, and that's it. There are neighbors
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it's not too remarkable. Although I don't
Speaker 1: have the sense that she would have even waved back.
Speaker 1: But sure, because she would have pretended not to see
Speaker 1: because she's staring straight to the ground. Yeah, possible. It
Speaker 1: sounds like her. Yeah, she was a little different anyway,
Speaker 1: I said, as I said, they were trying to have kids. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I've heard report said she had a miscarriage or
Speaker 1: another report she had several, but I don't know. But
Speaker 1: she eventually had a successful pregnancy, gave gave birth to
Speaker 1: a baby girl in two thousand and eight, and apparently,
Speaker 1: according to the in laws, she was extremely overprotective towards
Speaker 1: never really interacted with a baby before. Yeah, they felt
Speaker 1: that the way she handled the baby and everything, they
Speaker 1: felt like she was not familiar with baby at all whatsoever,
Speaker 1: which is okay, I'm not familiar with babies either, so
Speaker 1: I'm not going to judge her doing things like, you know,
Speaker 1: if the baby would start to chew on something, catch away,
Speaker 1: or uh, wouldn't let anybody else take care of this baby?
Speaker 1: Even though her in laws this, I think it was
Speaker 1: like grand baby number nine exactly, the very overprotective, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do, but nothing gets near my
Speaker 1: baby and it's safe, little bubble kind of mentality, which
Speaker 1: a lot of admittedly a lot of new parents do that.
Speaker 1: You can't hold that against her, but it's still a
Speaker 1: little strange because I have friends who were like that
Speaker 1: at first, and then we'd all say, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: let the kid chew on the dog's tail. It's okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that, like there's a slight different you know
Speaker 1: that's there's a scope of normal over interaction for new parents,
Speaker 1: and I think particularly if you're a grandparent looking in
Speaker 1: and having had children who had children for the first time,
Speaker 1: there's that scope of like what's fairly normal for overprotective
Speaker 1: first time parents to be in that sort of way,
Speaker 1: and then there's going beyond that, And I would probably
Speaker 1: trust their judgment in that they would be able to say,
Speaker 1: like it was, it was really even above and beyond that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, and I don't disagree with that. It's very obvious. Yeah, Anyway,
Speaker 1: so things just sort of went downhill. Uh. Laurie and
Speaker 1: the family really didn't get along. She she felt like
Speaker 1: she was she would take every little thing they would
Speaker 1: say as a slight and she was always rarely against
Speaker 1: them to Blake, which upset Blake because he was close
Speaker 1: to his family. And eventually got to the point where
Speaker 1: they wouldn't allow and she wouldn't allow any vegitation with
Speaker 1: the daughter very little, and this this behavior just got worse,
Speaker 1: and Yeah, she wouldn't leave the kid with the in
Speaker 1: laws in that room, like I can't go to the
Speaker 1: bathroom with the baby in this room with you. I'll
Speaker 1: take the baby with me kind of behavior. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff like that, and so the riff
Speaker 1: just got worse, and so they separated. In the summer
Speaker 1: of two thousand ten, Blake moved out, moved back in
Speaker 1: with his folks back in a long View five miles away,
Speaker 1: and filed for a divorce, and things kind of unraveled
Speaker 1: from there. Lourie Lorie apparently went sharply downhill after he
Speaker 1: moved out, and lost a lot of weight and was
Speaker 1: according to one neighbor who saw her, she was she
Speaker 1: and the daughter were both very thin, and uh, she
Speaker 1: seemed kind of incoherent. So she started actually harassing the
Speaker 1: Rough family and Blake, supposedly sending them threatening emails and
Speaker 1: things like that, and breaking into Supposedly they noticed the
Speaker 1: key was missing, although that's you know, sometimes kids get lost.
Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna gonna discount that one. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the so Lorie was not doing that well. Uh, and
Speaker 1: I also at this one, let me let me note
Speaker 1: that she was supposedly, according to Blake, taking medication for
Speaker 1: a d h D or O c D or Twourettes
Speaker 1: or something. He was gonna Yeah, there's a Blake apparently
Speaker 1: was not detail all right, and he really seems to
Speaker 1: be surprisingly I'm curious somebody. I think it was maybe
Speaker 1: his cousin described him as having a startlingly small inner monologue. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which seems to be a very perfect description, because he
Speaker 1: didn't really make decisions on his own, and he didn't
Speaker 1: really take initiative on most things. I think it might
Speaker 1: be the same person who said, well, I went and
Speaker 1: bought a black tahoe. So he did it. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: he just he kind of did what people told and
Speaker 1: he didn't question anything. If you said, you know, actually
Speaker 1: the sky is green, he goes, huh, that's weird. Looks
Speaker 1: blue to me, Okay, and just would leave it at that. Yeah. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: so Blake sounds like a nice guy. But I'm a
Speaker 1: little surprised he didn't know specifically what her issue was
Speaker 1: that she was taking medication for. Yeah. Another thing that
Speaker 1: he she had a lock box he kept in the
Speaker 1: bedroom closet. Did you guys have heard of the lock
Speaker 1: box before him? She told him never to touch it,
Speaker 1: and so he didn't. What should be like for me?
Speaker 1: I mean, I, on the one an, you want to
Speaker 1: expect your wife's privacy. At the same time, if you
Speaker 1: know that there's some incredible secret in that box, then
Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't you have to go look at that box? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I I can't resist tearing through the house before
Speaker 1: Christmas looking for things. Let alone, if you say, hey,
Speaker 1: so I've got this box that I've locked up and
Speaker 1: it's in the bottom of the closet, I would be
Speaker 1: I would do everything in the sun to figure out
Speaker 1: how to pick that thing we get in there. I
Speaker 1: don't think he I mean, you know A great example
Speaker 1: of this is again like Blake was the kind of
Speaker 1: man who, like she said, oh no, I burned all
Speaker 1: my family photos because I had it bad. And he
Speaker 1: wasn't like why was it bad? He was just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what I mean, tell me about it, tell me,
Speaker 1: let's talk to let get over the trauma. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: apparently he was just like okay, So I guess he
Speaker 1: was kind of the okay guy. Yeah. Anyway, back to Lorie.
Speaker 1: Lorie was again going downhill and on December she's Christmas Eve.
Speaker 1: Oh I didn't I didn't even make the connection there
Speaker 1: Christmas joke. She pulled into the rough driveway and shot
Speaker 1: herself in the head and she was in a black
Speaker 1: Chevy Tahoe. Yeah, shot herself on the head way to
Speaker 1: wreck everybody's Christmas lorieu. In the car they found two letters.
Speaker 1: One was to Blake it was eleven pages long, and
Speaker 1: another was to their daughter, which was to be opened
Speaker 1: on her eighteenth birthday. One of the things that I've
Speaker 1: seen some of the documents pertaining to this whole thing
Speaker 1: and the family, obviously they deserved their privacy, so they
Speaker 1: have to have opened up letter. I think they did
Speaker 1: and said it said that the letters were both in coherent,
Speaker 1: incoherent ramblings. Yeah, I think there couldn't have been at
Speaker 1: any useful clues in there. So so you know, they
Speaker 1: just chose not to publish them. Which side atmosphere well,
Speaker 1: and it's you're absolutely right, they deserve their privacy. And
Speaker 1: this is a terrible tragedy. I mean, for you know,
Speaker 1: the two years after you have a child and you're
Speaker 1: starting to get divorced and then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: she just you know, goes around the bend I think
Speaker 1: is the phrase that that used and and kills herself. That. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got to you've got to respect it for these peoples. Now,
Speaker 1: granted we're four years later. But yeah, but maybe four
Speaker 1: years isn't enough. Well, yeah, there's always that, is it
Speaker 1: too soon? And you've got to feel sad for Laura too,
Speaker 1: because she obviously had her inner demons. Yeah. A week
Speaker 1: or so after her suicide, after the funeral of Blake's brother, Miles,
Speaker 1: along with a few other family family members, drove to Leonard,
Speaker 1: Texas to search the house, and when they got there,
Speaker 1: they kind of place was a mess. She really had
Speaker 1: let herself go. Piles of dirty dishes, piles of dirty laundry,
Speaker 1: trash bags full of shredded documents. Certainly the crib was
Speaker 1: like soiled, soiled, yeah, uh. And so Blake had told
Speaker 1: Miles about the forbidden lock box that was hidden in
Speaker 1: the closet that he wasn't allowed to touch, so naturally,
Speaker 1: he made a b line for the closet and dug
Speaker 1: around until he found the lockbox and pried it open
Speaker 1: with a screwdriver, and he found really used a screwdriver,
Speaker 1: that's what he said. He said, he used, that is
Speaker 1: a really good lock box. He said, yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: it's probably the tin box. He used a flat blated
Speaker 1: screwdriver to break into it, and he found the following things.
Speaker 1: He found pages from an Arizona phone book, some scraps
Speaker 1: of paper with notes on them, some very random little notes.
Speaker 1: Also a birth certificate for a certain Becky Sue Turner
Speaker 1: who was born in nineteen sixty nine and Bakersfield, California
Speaker 1: and Idaho I d card in the same name with
Speaker 1: Lori's photo on it. So it turns out that Lorie
Speaker 1: Kennedy Rough, her true name, was actually Becky Turner, except
Speaker 1: Becky Turner died in a house fire in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: one at the age of two, so I know. So
Speaker 1: the Rough family hired a private investigator to try to
Speaker 1: find out who he really was. He did a little
Speaker 1: dig and he found out about Becky Sue Turner dying
Speaker 1: in five, Washington, which is where she was living at
Speaker 1: the time of her death, which is outside of Dacoma. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. And he managed to turn up a news
Speaker 1: clipping from a local newspaper that described the deaths of
Speaker 1: Becky and her two sisters, which, by the way, speaking
Speaker 1: of tragedy, could you imagine being the parents three three
Speaker 1: little girls who all died in the fire. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Never mind finding out years and years later that somebody
Speaker 1: stole their identity. Yeah, somebody's reading is one of them,
Speaker 1: I know. But so this listed their ages and also
Speaker 1: their place of birth, Bakersfield, California. This actually is apparently
Speaker 1: a very important detail, and she was perhaps as successful
Speaker 1: as she was in stealing the identity. Did you read
Speaker 1: about this? Yeah, because because since well, go ahead and well,
Speaker 1: it just turns out that it's way easier to steal
Speaker 1: somebody's identity if they were wet at that time, at
Speaker 1: least if they were born in one state and died
Speaker 1: in another, because the records often weren't actually cross reference.
Speaker 1: Now one hand doesn't know what the other hand's doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And apparently also at that time, at least the in California, UM,
Speaker 1: they would just mail a birth certificate to anybody who
Speaker 1: requested it. Yeah, and I don't know. I still I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that we gotta call her from now on, Jane Doe.
Speaker 1: And Jane Doe requested that if she requested it by mail,
Speaker 1: and she truly wanted to get lost, then if your crest.
Speaker 1: But if you're requested by mail, you're gonna leave a
Speaker 1: paper trail, right theoretically, Yeah, yeah, and it all depends,
Speaker 1: you know. See you don't know what's going to happen
Speaker 1: in a little bureaucracy at the other end. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: but here's the deal, right, is that if if just
Speaker 1: anybody can write in and request it, Like, what's to
Speaker 1: say that she used a real identity to request it? Right?
Speaker 1: I mean they probably just asked for some money and
Speaker 1: you just like get a money order or even just
Speaker 1: send some cash. Could she could have read it a
Speaker 1: PO box? Rend a p O box you get, you know,
Speaker 1: put a wrong name on it and just have it delivered.
Speaker 1: But to rent a PO box you've got to provide identification. Okay, Here,
Speaker 1: here's a problem is that do we know I think
Speaker 1: I know where you're heading with this is do we
Speaker 1: know if the State of California has on record the
Speaker 1: address that they sent this document to. I don't know that.
Speaker 1: I'm really curious. Done it at wherever she was living
Speaker 1: at the moment. If it's not actually recorded, we don't
Speaker 1: have to go to these great lengths of what you
Speaker 1: could have got a post office. She could have just
Speaker 1: sent it to her freaking an out. So as it
Speaker 1: turns out, she did. I know she did have one,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying she didn't have to go to
Speaker 1: that link necessarily at that time, she might not have.
Speaker 1: But I think we're getting I think we're also mixing
Speaker 1: this up, and we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.
Speaker 1: I also don't know if in the seventies you really
Speaker 1: did have to provide identification to get it. This was
Speaker 1: actually eighties, and I don't remember exactly what exactly was
Speaker 1: it that identity theft started becoming prevalent. Yeah, credit was
Speaker 1: being a bigger thing. Sorry, we're we're a little out
Speaker 1: over here. Back back to where we are we going?
Speaker 1: The private investigator turns up a news clipping from a
Speaker 1: local newspaper that described the desk of Becky, her two sisters,
Speaker 1: listed their ages, their place of birth. He dug up
Speaker 1: more info. She found out found out that she had
Speaker 1: moved to Texas, and that she had legally changed her
Speaker 1: name to Laurie Erica Kennedy and then applied for and
Speaker 1: got a Social Security card. She got her g e
Speaker 1: D and then enrolled in college, and of course she
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I'm suspecting that she actually was older
Speaker 1: than she said she was, and then she probably prevent suspicion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she she got her GD. She might have already had
Speaker 1: a college degree at this point in time, but it
Speaker 1: was in the wrong name. So she had to start
Speaker 1: all over again and do the test out to get
Speaker 1: the g D and then go back to college again,
Speaker 1: and she got a degree in business administration. But that's
Speaker 1: about as far as the private investigator got in finding
Speaker 1: out who she was. So it turns out the Rough
Speaker 1: family was friendly with a Texas congressman who was at
Speaker 1: the time served on the House Intelligence Committee, and they
Speaker 1: were wondering about Becky or Becky Sue Jane Doe Lorie Ruff.
Speaker 1: They were wonder if maybe she was a Soviet mole
Speaker 1: or something like that, and so they took their evidence
Speaker 1: to him that they had uncovered so far, and he
Speaker 1: took the information to a guy named Joseph Lling who
Speaker 1: was an investigator for the Social Security Administration's who specialized
Speaker 1: in fraud and identity theft and things like that. So
Speaker 1: this is this guy was a pretty good detective and
Speaker 1: he's actually spent he spent a couple of years trying
Speaker 1: to break this case and he hasn't been able to
Speaker 1: do it. I mean, this is a and he's he's
Speaker 1: uncovered lots of stuff. He's the one who found out
Speaker 1: that she had had that she had a PO box
Speaker 1: in Boulder City, Nevada that she read in which border
Speaker 1: mail to her Dallas address. Uh, he found out when
Speaker 1: and she got Becky Turner's birth certificate. And again this
Speaker 1: is this is a little mysterious to me. So they
Speaker 1: kept a record of the fact that they had sent
Speaker 1: out her birth certificate to somebody, but they didn't keep
Speaker 1: a record of who they sent it to. That's bureaucracy
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, I know the form says was dis requested,
Speaker 1: yes or no. That's all I filled in. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it probably probably it's in a jacket and when when
Speaker 1: everybodybody touches it, they probably have a stamp with a
Speaker 1: date on it. They stamped the file or something like that,
Speaker 1: you know, And so that's probably how they knew that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he called some people that were referenced in her notes.
Speaker 1: Her notes. By the way, did you see the notes?
Speaker 1: They're kind of they're kind of scrawling, incoherent. I checked
Speaker 1: the There's a bunch of different phone numbers in there,
Speaker 1: and almost every single one of them. The area coaches
Speaker 1: for setting for Los Angeles players, an attorney referenced in there,
Speaker 1: from Los Angeles. It turns out he was a bankruptcy attorney.
Speaker 1: And it turns out apparently he died a few years ago.
Speaker 1: So but he but Bevelling got ahold of him, and
Speaker 1: he knew nothing about it. And so maybe she just
Speaker 1: got his name and she was thinking about declaring bankruptcy.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It turned out she had declared bankruptcy
Speaker 1: in Dallas back in the nineties. And by the way,
Speaker 1: she got breast implants to in she did and a
Speaker 1: job and a nose job. Yeah, he called so, he
Speaker 1: called the He called the attorney and some other people
Speaker 1: who were referenced in these in these incoherent notes of hers,
Speaker 1: and he did more than that. He also got in
Speaker 1: touch with the Turners and they had no idea who
Speaker 1: she possibly could be. He ran photos every through facial
Speaker 1: recognition databases because this guy works with the government, so
Speaker 1: he can He's got access to a lot of resources,
Speaker 1: resources that even thinking Sideways podcast doesn't happen. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: He also said our fingerpists to the FBI. He compared
Speaker 1: her d n A to DNA database databases. And he
Speaker 1: was using I mean, he was using very some of
Speaker 1: the resources. He was using were kind of mundane, like
Speaker 1: ancestry dot com. But if you look at the notes
Speaker 1: and by the way, polar link on the website folks,
Speaker 1: and you can take a look at these PDFs of
Speaker 1: some of her her notes she left behind, but her handwriting.
Speaker 1: Joe and I had this conversation before we started recording.
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is all handwriting by the
Speaker 1: same person. I know. Joe said at one point, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it could be just you know, write down
Speaker 1: a quick note, and so your handwriting is really sloppy,
Speaker 1: except I look at letters that are written in sentences
Speaker 1: or you know, blocks that don't look like they were
Speaker 1: written fast. And there are letters that don't pair up,
Speaker 1: like the s is or the ease or not the
Speaker 1: same in every in certain words. I understand there's a
Speaker 1: drift when hand with handwriting, but no, this is it
Speaker 1: all looks kind of different. Yeah, it's almost as if
Speaker 1: somebody wrote part of it. She had that sheet of
Speaker 1: paper and then she was writing on top of that.
Speaker 1: There are some things like okay, so you know there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff on here, like Pacific bell A
Speaker 1: b M offices, there's some dollar amount right below it,
Speaker 1: and then Mountain bell three hours less. But in the
Speaker 1: top left hand corner upside down is written four or
Speaker 1: two months, which and then there's like three little lines
Speaker 1: underneath it. I don't know why that is. So it's
Speaker 1: just peculiar, and you know what, and a little bit
Speaker 1: it looks like it's actually it says forty and then
Speaker 1: it says two months, forty years, two months or something
Speaker 1: right like that looks it doesn't look like it's actually
Speaker 1: all meant to be the over two months or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it couldn't. It is quite possible. And actually
Speaker 1: we should talk about this because a lot of people
Speaker 1: reference that in the articles online. Four two months? What
Speaker 1: was she hiding from? Okay, well, four two months is
Speaker 1: a huge amount of time. Oh yes it's there's there's
Speaker 1: actually a web page called months too years dot com.
Speaker 1: You can go and it will convert months two years.
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding thirty three and a half years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thirty three and a half years. So but it could
Speaker 1: be something as simple as she had to pay somebody
Speaker 1: forty bucks over two months, something as simple as that.
Speaker 1: You know, it could have just been all run together
Speaker 1: and she wasn't using dollars. I'm making examples of ways
Speaker 1: to interpret this, because this stuff is just so hard
Speaker 1: to figure out. Yeah, but but if you look at
Speaker 1: if you look at the writing to though the four
Speaker 1: or two months, it actually it looks to me like
Speaker 1: a forty and then the two is a lot smaller.
Speaker 1: The two is more more the size of the months
Speaker 1: that follow up, right, So it looks actually wrote two
Speaker 1: months and then wrote the forty later or the forty
Speaker 1: one and then two months later. So I don't think
Speaker 1: that the four two months really means anything. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really discount these letters because they are just so
Speaker 1: out there and I almost you know what they give me,
Speaker 1: like a little bit that heb gbs, like as all
Speaker 1: of all of this stuff is, it's so like discombobulated,
Speaker 1: and it is so much of the handwriting is so different.
Speaker 1: You know, like there's some of it that's very well
Speaker 1: constrained and like definitely meticulous, and then there's like the
Speaker 1: cursiff down in the bottom corner, and then there's you know,
Speaker 1: it's all different. Doesn't look like it comes from the
Speaker 1: same hand, Yeah No, I don't. Yeah anous Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: especially the cursive down the lower left hand corner that
Speaker 1: that looks much much different. So I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: just an interesting anomaly about this, right, Yeah, she had
Speaker 1: some other random stuff. She had this set of this
Speaker 1: little set of jottings here, which are columns of numbers.
Speaker 1: There's three sets of numbers in there. Each set is
Speaker 1: two columns. They appear to be on the right hand side,
Speaker 1: escalating years, starting in one column in sixty seven, another
Speaker 1: one in ninety, another one nine. Although this is the
Speaker 1: big assumption on my part, people have speculated that these
Speaker 1: were this was her way of calculating her parents or
Speaker 1: maybe Becky suit Turner's parents ages. But I don't see
Speaker 1: why she would be even interested in doing that. She
Speaker 1: didn't care about beckyc tournament as far as her own.
Speaker 1: She had dumped that identity, so who cares. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be maybe she had left behind two parents and
Speaker 1: a sibling and she was trying to, you know, keep
Speaker 1: track of her figure out how old it would be
Speaker 1: at this particular time. I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: why she couldn't have used simple arithmetical Yeah, that's exactly
Speaker 1: what Joe and I talked about earlier. Down It is that. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what is the first set of numbers? In the
Speaker 1: upper left hand side forty eight nine. Okay, so we'll
Speaker 1: just say that somebody at forty eight years old. The
Speaker 1: other person is ninety simple edition thirty eight and eighty
Speaker 1: twenty eight and seventy, like you can just kind of
Speaker 1: take in simple increments. So it's really strange that it's
Speaker 1: written out in such longhand it could be kind of
Speaker 1: an O C D sort of thing and maybe there's
Speaker 1: no rational purpose behind you very repetitive, yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's and a lot of people I think came up
Speaker 1: with the whole it's accolading mom and Dad's ages because
Speaker 1: there are present on the page. There's there's a very
Speaker 1: clear D and there's a very clear M. So mom,
Speaker 1: dad and so. But that's what the third call on
Speaker 1: this for Maybe that's her age. I don't know, it's uh,
Speaker 1: you know, again, we're never gonna know, unless maybe it's
Speaker 1: some sort of strange cryptograph. There's actually you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things that's interesting is there's a there's a
Speaker 1: theory floating out around there. I know, we're not at
Speaker 1: the theories yet, um that maybe she had been an
Speaker 1: abducted child and that eight is when she was released
Speaker 1: or whatever. Got away or whatever and realized she had
Speaker 1: to assume any identity. But is it fairly far freshed?
Speaker 1: But um, I guess you could kind of rationalize this
Speaker 1: sort of meticulous she It's possible that she was awful
Speaker 1: at math and couldn't actually do that arithmetic or whatever,
Speaker 1: or wanted to be able to just look at every
Speaker 1: single number, but you know whatever, that last bit better
Speaker 1: than I could say she was awful at math. Because
Speaker 1: she she was that awful at math, how did she
Speaker 1: get her g e d And a college degree? That's fair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's uh, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's
Speaker 1: a trick that she's using to try and calculate based
Speaker 1: on her assumed that she thinks she has aged what
Speaker 1: ages those people would be, or even to calculate backwards.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if she was an abductive child
Speaker 1: and she didn't know how old she was, if she
Speaker 1: found her parents or found somebody who she had a knew,
Speaker 1: you know, rationally, then she was trying to calculate her
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's hard to tell. It's really kind
Speaker 1: of strange. Yeah, I don't I don't think she was
Speaker 1: abducted and hell to the the age of eighteen. Because
Speaker 1: unless unless her abductor actually took the time and trouble
Speaker 1: to tutor her and teacher and teacher things like, you know,
Speaker 1: how to read and write stuff like that. Well, I
Speaker 1: know we're going to talk about let's just let's put this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're almost of the theories. We are pretty close to that.
Speaker 1: Joseph Elling, the investigator with the so Security Administration, had
Speaker 1: reached a dead end after about two years, so he
Speaker 1: took the story to the Seattle Times and reported anymore.
Speaker 1: You know, Haguan wrote a really good article about it.
Speaker 1: That's I recommend if you don't know if you guys
Speaker 1: read it or not, but yeah, how could you not.
Speaker 1: But that's where it all ends. It's still a mystery,
Speaker 1: I think. And what a Vellens vellings motivations was to
Speaker 1: get photographs of her out there to the public and
Speaker 1: maybe somebody would recognize her. So far, that's you know
Speaker 1: that that came out in two thousand thirteen. That still
Speaker 1: hasn't happened. Been interesting. You know, there's there's all the
Speaker 1: you read the forums and it's like everybody's kind of like,
Speaker 1: oh no, you know, yeah, this is the Internet. Though
Speaker 1: somebody will come forward and identify her in no time.
Speaker 1: And you know these are posts from like April two thirteen,
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, yeah and no time. But did he
Speaker 1: do did did we mention if he is running DNA
Speaker 1: or fingerprints or yeah? And fingerprints and got nothing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the facial recognition didn't come back either. Sorry, it
Speaker 1: might have. You might have said that already. I was
Speaker 1: busy reading notes. That's okay, yeah, so so. But that's
Speaker 1: not remarkable. Is a lot of people haven't been fingerprinted.
Speaker 1: Although if she were, if she were a criminal, she
Speaker 1: would have been fingerprinted. If she was fleeing something huge,
Speaker 1: she would have been. She had been, she could be,
Speaker 1: She could have been a criminal, but who had just
Speaker 1: not yet been arrested and booked. Yeah, you know that's
Speaker 1: always possible, that's true, although I don't know why changing
Speaker 1: her identity would help. So one of the things that
Speaker 1: really really intrigues me, and this might actually be the
Speaker 1: key to unlocking the mystery, although it means searching through
Speaker 1: a whole lot of haystacks for for a small needle.
Speaker 1: But the question is is how did Lori Kennedy know
Speaker 1: about Becky Sue Turner's death? How did she find out
Speaker 1: about it. There's several different ways to do that, you know.
Speaker 1: And as a little aside, you know a lot of
Speaker 1: people are saying, wow, she must have gotten a professional
Speaker 1: identity broker or something like that that actually exists as
Speaker 1: a professional. Yeah, but go ahead and try to find one.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you do you know where you go
Speaker 1: to find one of those guys. The thing about it
Speaker 1: is is is I know how I know how to
Speaker 1: get a fake I d set up. It's to these
Speaker 1: days that it used to be, but I knew how
Speaker 1: to do exactly what she did just for me to
Speaker 1: spine novels and stuff in crime novels and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And so it's not everybody's thinking just like rocket science
Speaker 1: to get new to get a new fake idea, but
Speaker 1: especially in wasn't that is finding the right person who's
Speaker 1: don need to assume right, That's the key. And so
Speaker 1: one way is to go through old newspapers looking at
Speaker 1: obituaries and that eventually it's gonna take some time, but
Speaker 1: eventually you're gonna stumble across that one person who died
Speaker 1: at two, and so you're gonna go out. You want
Speaker 1: somebody who died, you know it was very died very young.
Speaker 1: You want somebody that was born around the late sixties,
Speaker 1: and so eventually you're gonna find some age. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And actually this was this is when I I sent
Speaker 1: a message to marieno hagan about this yesterday and having
Speaker 1: her back. I probably never will because I'm sure she
Speaker 1: gets inundated with crack pop messages, but I was thinking
Speaker 1: that she might have actually gotten that. I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly where the column came from that news clipping, but
Speaker 1: the obituary probably appeared in the Seattle Times and Seattle
Speaker 1: Times of course has they have archives, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: people are allowed to come in. And what my question
Speaker 1: for for Moreen O'Hagan was, when people come in to
Speaker 1: go through the archives, are they required to sign in
Speaker 1: or show I d And so I was kind of
Speaker 1: just so she found that if she pulled that burst
Speaker 1: cer tapic in that me and that meant she would
Speaker 1: have been spending time going through newspaper archives in in
Speaker 1: all the local areas, so in Tacoma, in Seattle. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure exactly which newspaper or newspapers she was going
Speaker 1: through the archives, but that's one avenue. Again, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big haystack. Ex Actually, it's a
Speaker 1: several haystacks to go through. But if you're really determined
Speaker 1: to find her, that's one way to do it. Another way,
Speaker 1: you can find somebody who's a suitable identity that to
Speaker 1: steal is to one or two grave guards looking at gravestones,
Speaker 1: and also another one. And I think this is a
Speaker 1: real stability is I think she might have known the
Speaker 1: Turner family when she was a kid, which meant she
Speaker 1: would have been living in five Maybe she was a neighbor,
Speaker 1: or maybe she was a schoolmate or playmate one of
Speaker 1: the kids. I'm guessing the oldest of the daughters who
Speaker 1: died was eight years old. So for Becky, Becky, Sue, Jane, Doe,
Speaker 1: Lorie to be old enough to remember the family and
Speaker 1: the kids all dying in the fire, she would have
Speaker 1: had to have been friends with the oldest one, the
Speaker 1: eight year old. Well know, I wouldn't say that. She
Speaker 1: could have been in the middle one, the medal one
Speaker 1: was only three. Yeah, but as a neighbor, you don't
Speaker 1: have to be the same age as somebody to be
Speaker 1: friends and know them that. Oh yeah, I'd not say
Speaker 1: she was precisely age. She might have been six or
Speaker 1: seven or Okay, she might have and she might not
Speaker 1: even really been friends, so they might have just lived
Speaker 1: a few houses down. And when the fire went up,
Speaker 1: it was a huge tragedy that stuck in her mind
Speaker 1: because why wouldn't it you know, you saw these people
Speaker 1: and now they're dead. Well, one of the children survived,
Speaker 1: didn't they one of the one of the kids survived
Speaker 1: that fire. I thought they all died. One of them survived, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and his accounted for work, just to like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I thought, I thought three kids died in that fire. Kids, Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: I missed that. Okay. So I guess it's also possible
Speaker 1: that that person became friends with Jane Doe later or
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the story right. And I also
Speaker 1: think it's like highly possible for if a huge tragedy
Speaker 1: happens when you're three or four, you're gonna remember at
Speaker 1: least big parts of that and if the time comes
Speaker 1: for you to think, oh, gosh, I gotta I gotta
Speaker 1: steal on identity, and she would say, oh, there was
Speaker 1: that fire, and it would be yeah, you're being reminded constantly,
Speaker 1: so you're like your childhood, because every time your mom
Speaker 1: catches you, like like leaving the stove on, do you
Speaker 1: want to be like the Turner family? And yeah, so
Speaker 1: you so it's it's so. I think it's most likely
Speaker 1: that she actually lived somewhere close to the Turners and
Speaker 1: that's how she knew about it. It's it's and the
Speaker 1: other ones that the other possibilities are strong too, But
Speaker 1: that just meant a whole hell of a lot more
Speaker 1: work for her to find the proper identity just to assume. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but then I mean, then of course we have the
Speaker 1: question of like why why, Well, that isn't expect big question,
Speaker 1: which is why she wanted to do this? So well,
Speaker 1: so's a few theories here. One is that she was
Speaker 1: a spy, but but I know she was. She was
Speaker 1: too unstable, just a little bit too looney, uh, And
Speaker 1: she really didn't do anything to get into a sensitive
Speaker 1: position where she could actually do the Russians or anybody
Speaker 1: else any good. She lived in Texas and did a job,
Speaker 1: and I guess she Okay, let's go down the spy
Speaker 1: novel route. She was a secret shopper, which means she
Speaker 1: could have been looking at stuff and doing investigation and
Speaker 1: doing all kinds of reconnaissance. But really I don't buy
Speaker 1: that you got a bet a sleeper agent. You know,
Speaker 1: she was left there to come up, you know, be
Speaker 1: activated at some point and go off in a killing
Speaker 1: spree without They didn't find any like guns and knives
Speaker 1: or anything like that in her house, just as a
Speaker 1: gun she killed herself with. I didn't and I didn't
Speaker 1: actually find out if it was a Soviet Man fashioned
Speaker 1: gun or not. Probably not. Another theory that's out there
Speaker 1: that's a lot of people will find popular said she
Speaker 1: was fleeing a cult and she was like caught up
Speaker 1: in a cult and she had to get away from them.
Speaker 1: There's also the piggybacking on that theory is that I
Speaker 1: guess somehow that she was traced to Idaho. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she got well she was where she got That's where
Speaker 1: she got her I d carry. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want you all that stuff
Speaker 1: or not. I thought I did. But she after she
Speaker 1: got Becky Sue Turner's birth certificate, about a month or
Speaker 1: so later, she shows up in Boise, Idaho and gets
Speaker 1: an Idaho ID card, and then not long after that
Speaker 1: she shows up in Dallas, Texas, and right after she
Speaker 1: gets there, she files for a legal name change, and
Speaker 1: so she changed her name legally, and then she applied
Speaker 1: for her sole security number. Yeah, so she was in Idaho,
Speaker 1: and I guess there's a lot of supremacy movement. Yes, probably,
Speaker 1: I think is that where you're headed. That's not where
Speaker 1: I was headed. I was headed down the like Mormon
Speaker 1: rabbit home. This is actually apparently a thing that's like
Speaker 1: happening or that's been happening in Idaho. That there's like
Speaker 1: a lot of like kind of almost like culti offshoots
Speaker 1: of the Mormon Church happening in Idaho. Um, that are
Speaker 1: happening in the late eighties. Yeah, that are like super
Speaker 1: cultish and like you can't get out of. And there's
Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of other kind of church activities
Speaker 1: not obviously sanctioned by the overarching church. I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to disparage any of the churches, but there are crazy
Speaker 1: people in every walks of life, and that that's apparently
Speaker 1: a fairly legitimate that like she grew up in that
Speaker 1: and escaped it and then found herself with no resources
Speaker 1: and somehow, you know, maybe through the Mormon Church, even
Speaker 1: because they keep really good ancestral records, found out about
Speaker 1: the Fife fire, grabbed that, just clung onto it and
Speaker 1: took it from there. That's a fairly prevalent theory on
Speaker 1: the Internet as well. That's really interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: the other thing that I looked at is we have
Speaker 1: this obviously, we have this huge spade of time where
Speaker 1: we don't just don't know who she is, where she is.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I looked up was
Speaker 1: the Roger Krishna's here in Oregon. And for anybody who
Speaker 1: doesn't know this is very boiled down version are you
Speaker 1: talking about Ronis? Thank you. I totally totally hacked that
Speaker 1: name up. But the point is they it was a
Speaker 1: religious movement. They were in Oregon for a couple of
Speaker 1: years and then the raj nih She got in trouble
Speaker 1: and they left, but they had thousands upon thousands of
Speaker 1: followers were living on their compound. Okay, so let's say
Speaker 1: she's one of their followers, and some of their followers
Speaker 1: did get a lot of legal trouble because they did
Speaker 1: some weird stuff. I cannot remember the name of the
Speaker 1: woman who was one of the leaders. Yeah, Sheila, and
Speaker 1: she she poisoned people, she had committed she she had
Speaker 1: contracts on people. She was off the d bed. But
Speaker 1: is it if you were involved in the upper echelons
Speaker 1: of that and you get out early enough before the
Speaker 1: hammer comes down, you probably would want to disappear. I
Speaker 1: don't know, just age wise, if that makes a whole
Speaker 1: lot of sense, but maybe, well, they they gotten that
Speaker 1: all of their legal troubles happened in eighty four to
Speaker 1: eighty five. And then I just mean that, like, I
Speaker 1: don't know that Jane Doe would have been old enough
Speaker 1: to have been in the upper echelons of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that she said she was eighteen,
Speaker 1: but she certainly wasn't older than thirty or than well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that age. I think your devotion
Speaker 1: got you round or not more than anything else. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they are a whole another story to go into. But
Speaker 1: that's one of the things I thought, is what if
Speaker 1: they were part of that group and she was like,
Speaker 1: I gotta get out of here, and I never want
Speaker 1: to be associated with these people again, because holy Craft
Speaker 1: is went south to go south. Though the originations didn't
Speaker 1: give me the impression of being the kind of CULTI
Speaker 1: kind of people that would actually track down a desert
Speaker 1: or and kill them. They weren't really like that, but
Speaker 1: they did a lot of things that got a lot
Speaker 1: of people in legal trouble. And you realize that troubles
Speaker 1: coming down the bend, you might just want to step
Speaker 1: to the side and completely disappear from it. Yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: but why not? She lived by the way she engineered
Speaker 1: the first biological attack at us soil. She Yeah, they
Speaker 1: did all sorts of incredible stuff, incredible, incredibly crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, I think that that's it's a
Speaker 1: fair point that it's totally possible that she had either
Speaker 1: been born into got mixed up in some kind of
Speaker 1: cult or crazy movement, realized that that was some trouble involved,
Speaker 1: and and also she was pretty unbalanced. And not to
Speaker 1: say that people in that sort of situation are unbalanced,
Speaker 1: but obviously I put more stress on a person who
Speaker 1: was already like a little a little bit sort of
Speaker 1: teetering on the edge. She's I mean, but I think
Speaker 1: about it is if you if you're fleeing, say abuse,
Speaker 1: or if you're fleeing a cult and you've got this nice,
Speaker 1: warm family of in laws who are asking about your past.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just say, look, I I got him
Speaker 1: mixed up with this cult and I had to I
Speaker 1: had to get out with my life, and I changed
Speaker 1: my name and I came here and started a new life.
Speaker 1: And so you know, why not not just tell him
Speaker 1: that same Yeah, I guess maybe she's advanced about yeah,
Speaker 1: But at the same time, again, this is the thing
Speaker 1: about her that was a little perverse in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is that she really wanted to preserve her secret, her
Speaker 1: secret past and everything. And she really should have just
Speaker 1: sat down and come up with the biography for herself,
Speaker 1: because she brought more suspicion upon herself by refusing to
Speaker 1: talk about anything then she would have if she just said,
Speaker 1: you know, you pick, you pick a large city like
Speaker 1: Los Angeles where you know and you say I'm from
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and say, oh, do you know John Doe
Speaker 1: and and you say, no, LA is a big place.
Speaker 1: You don't want to pick a little small town. In
Speaker 1: other words, yeah, and you just go with that and
Speaker 1: just build yourself a false biography and and and go
Speaker 1: with that. I don't know why she didn't do that.
Speaker 1: So what do you think I also do just want
Speaker 1: to point out, not to say anything bad against the Ruffs,
Speaker 1: because I don't know them, but I do want to
Speaker 1: point out that it's pretty much them saying we were
Speaker 1: really nice to her, We were welcoming and wonderful and
Speaker 1: non judgmental and just opened up our arms, and she
Speaker 1: was just a crazy person. Yeah, I suppose you're making
Speaker 1: a good point, you know. I mean, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say that they're not lovely people, because they probably are,
Speaker 1: but there's also there's so many weird nuances with family
Speaker 1: that like it is possible that maybe they thought they
Speaker 1: were being nice and warm and welcoming, and really she
Speaker 1: was truly interpreting it as they were being awful or
Speaker 1: they were nice and warm and welcoming if she were
Speaker 1: like a perfect Christian woman from the perfect background and
Speaker 1: otherwise you know, they would not you know, I just
Speaker 1: do want to go ahead and stay just for the
Speaker 1: record that not to say that they are not, but
Speaker 1: we are kind of just they may be the Spanish
Speaker 1: Inquisition and not realize they're being the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe
Speaker 1: they do and they're happy to do. So that's that's
Speaker 1: that's a good point that we don't have Laurie's side
Speaker 1: of the story on the family relationship doing, nor do
Speaker 1: we have. I don't think I've heard anybody like any
Speaker 1: like family, friends or anything come up. It's all like
Speaker 1: the family specifically. And part of that might be that
Speaker 1: she just sequestered herself so much away from them that
Speaker 1: nobody knew but Joe what. There's also this thing about
Speaker 1: her being oh gosh, what's this woman's name that they
Speaker 1: think she might have been? Jennifer Jennifer Jennifer. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: is the deal with this? Because I saw this and
Speaker 1: I couldn't track with it now. Yeah, so somebody posted something.
Speaker 1: There's there's some stuff around the internet about that. Somebody
Speaker 1: said he did a Google image search on her on
Speaker 1: her photograph, on Lorie's photograph. You can do a reverse
Speaker 1: search on images, Yeah, you can, yea Google searches, Yeah,
Speaker 1: pull up matches to the images. It's not that reliable.
Speaker 1: But apparently some guy did a search and it actually
Speaker 1: pulled up some of her her photos, but also pulled
Speaker 1: up a photo of this Jennifer wicker chick? Was it?
Speaker 1: Do I have a right as a wicker w I
Speaker 1: c t o R. So Jennifer worked there with a
Speaker 1: few notes I made. Yeah, so she disappeared, and so
Speaker 1: somebody disappeared. Let's be fair. She disappeared in May of nine. Yeah, so, Uh,
Speaker 1: there's some photographs that were out there. Some people have
Speaker 1: have concluded from comparing the photographs that if Lori or
Speaker 1: Jennifer had had a nose job, then there's a close
Speaker 1: match between the two. I see it. No, I don't.
Speaker 1: You don't know, not at all. If you look at
Speaker 1: the two photographs, if you want to, I've got the
Speaker 1: two photographs in the file. Jennifer. Well, first off, their eyebrows.
Speaker 1: Their eyebrows are shaped very differently. Okay, but dude, yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: are you serious? Women pluck their eyebrows all the time
Speaker 1: and change the shape. That's true. But still, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I think that that's at least that's got to
Speaker 1: be at one telling point. I'm gonna come with totally
Speaker 1: different eyebrows and see if you noticed, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: with mine penciled on. Yeah, and see if he notices, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come with false eyelashes. So but if the
Speaker 1: other thing about it is is uh, number one, if
Speaker 1: you look at their eyes, Loria's eyes are much larger
Speaker 1: than Jennifer's eyes. Also they spaced Loria's eyes are spaced
Speaker 1: further apart. I did. I did a quick thing I have.
Speaker 1: I have photo software, so I got photos of both
Speaker 1: of them, did the overlay because other people did the overlaid,
Speaker 1: so I didn't do the overlay thing. But I have
Speaker 1: I have photo editing software that has one one it's
Speaker 1: got a shortcoming, but it's got one unique, nice little feature,
Speaker 1: and that is that it will tell you the precise
Speaker 1: location on the X and y, the X and y
Speaker 1: plane where your cursor is any given time. So I
Speaker 1: drew a nice little one pixel line between the pupils
Speaker 1: of Lori's eyes, and I marked down and kept track
Speaker 1: of the X axis coordinate for those and then I
Speaker 1: drew a line from that line down to the end
Speaker 1: of other nose. And I calculated that you can't with
Speaker 1: the nose. I mean you can't not and that not no,
Speaker 1: not on Now, I know you're gonna say that these
Speaker 1: are photographs, they're not precise, and and there's slightly different angles.
Speaker 1: But also had a nose job. But but you're you're not.
Speaker 1: It can't radically change the length of your nose. You're
Speaker 1: not your nose occupies a specific piece of real estate
Speaker 1: on your on your face. My issue with this is
Speaker 1: that the two photos of Lori that we're using here
Speaker 1: are from I D cards, which means that they were
Speaker 1: one inch by one inch at best images that are
Speaker 1: then blown up, so they're they're not going to because
Speaker 1: God knows, somebody may have stretched that phone photo when
Speaker 1: they put it on or compress things. So my my
Speaker 1: point that I'm getting at is that I don't think
Speaker 1: that we can say this is an ironclad exact photo
Speaker 1: of her. If we had now there's photos of her
Speaker 1: that were available of her with her husband, that I
Speaker 1: would say it is a little more indicative of what
Speaker 1: she probably truly looks like. But these I'm I'm leary
Speaker 1: of using a I D card photo because I don't
Speaker 1: look anything like my I D card photo. But so
Speaker 1: the photographs have been blown up. Yeah, true, but the
Speaker 1: basic proportions of the faces are going to be the
Speaker 1: same in my opinion, if you look at all the
Speaker 1: different photographs that were out that are out there. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I calculated the ratio between the distance between the eyes
Speaker 1: and the distance between the bridge and the nose and
Speaker 1: the end of the nose on both on both women.
Speaker 1: So for Jennifer it was one to one point two
Speaker 1: four and for Lori it was one to one point
Speaker 1: six six. So pretty dramatic difference. Pretty dramatic difference, even
Speaker 1: though there are slight differences in the angles of the
Speaker 1: photos and everything that if it had been a lot
Speaker 1: closer than that, I would say, hey, okay, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that means. What that means is that is that Jennifer's
Speaker 1: eyes are relative to the length of her nose much
Speaker 1: closer together. Also, if you take it out a close
Speaker 1: look at Jennifer in that photograph, you'll see that their
Speaker 1: left eye is slightly higher than her right eye, whereas
Speaker 1: Lorie did not have that her eyes were at the
Speaker 1: same level. So it's basically you're pointing out there there's
Speaker 1: some serious flaws in the idea that Jennifer Wicktor and
Speaker 1: Lori Slash who Jane Doe, we're the same person. I
Speaker 1: doubt I don't believe it at all. Okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I think that there's a lot
Speaker 1: that you can do with facial reconstruction surgery that you
Speaker 1: can drastically change the way that somebody looks. But you
Speaker 1: can't you know, make eyes different. I mean, you cannot
Speaker 1: move them. You probably could, but it would be really expensive.
Speaker 1: And you know, I just think that I agree. I
Speaker 1: just think that it's definitely worth the look. I think
Speaker 1: it's fascinating that there are some pretty strong coincidences. Well,
Speaker 1: there are some some similarities. I mean, they have similar
Speaker 1: jaw lines, and their their lips and the shapes of
Speaker 1: their mouths are very similar, very similar. Yeah, there are
Speaker 1: some similarities. Structure generally is fairly similar. Yeah, but generally,
Speaker 1: but and you know the fact that they were just
Speaker 1: appeared and reappeared about the same time, and you know,
Speaker 1: very convenient. It's convenient. Yea, let's say that. I can
Speaker 1: see why a lot of people are in that, but
Speaker 1: I really don't think. Yeah, I think they're the same person. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's let's move away from that, move on to
Speaker 1: another thing. We just ran down that it wasn't It
Speaker 1: wasn't Jennifer Wicktor. But I was thinking that possibly she
Speaker 1: committed committed some major crime like embezzlements. So imagine, imagine
Speaker 1: she works, so you know, for god knows who, let's
Speaker 1: assume that she was older than she claimed she was.
Speaker 1: She was not when she said she was eighteen when
Speaker 1: she got her I D Card from Idaho. And let's
Speaker 1: assume that she was like five or so. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and like stage solidly she
Speaker 1: was not older than Yeah, probably not, but definitely not eighteen.
Speaker 1: Because after all, if you're a woman, especially and you're
Speaker 1: getting and you're gonna get a fake a new identity,
Speaker 1: you're gonna shave a few years off, right, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, especially if the most convenient thing for you
Speaker 1: is that that person would have been eighteen. But imagine
Speaker 1: that she's in a job where she realizes she's in
Speaker 1: a position to embezzle or steal a whole bunch of money.
Speaker 1: She's got to figure out a way. She knows that
Speaker 1: she's not going to get away with it, but she
Speaker 1: has she has this idea. What if I get myself
Speaker 1: all set up with a fake ID, and then I
Speaker 1: commit the crime, whatever the crime is, whether it's murder
Speaker 1: or stealing a whole bunch of money or whatever. Then
Speaker 1: I commit the crime, and then I just disappear because
Speaker 1: they can go they can go looking for whatever my
Speaker 1: name is, Jane Doe or whatever what I've disappeared because
Speaker 1: I got me a new identity D. Why would you
Speaker 1: stay in this country if you have a new I D.
Speaker 1: Because at the time, all you had to have to
Speaker 1: cross the border was a driver's license some kind of
Speaker 1: I D cards. So why wouldn't you just take off
Speaker 1: of the suitcase of money rather than settling in Texas? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm a disparaging Texas. I'm just it's like, why
Speaker 1: would you just go settle in Connecticut? I mean, why
Speaker 1: would you just go settle in another state? Why wouldn't
Speaker 1: you just beat feet so you don't ever have to
Speaker 1: worry because obviously she's whatever she did, she was worried
Speaker 1: about that catching up with her, So why why choose
Speaker 1: that area? I The only thing I can think of
Speaker 1: for that is that she just, you know, she didn't
Speaker 1: seem like the kind of person that could just go
Speaker 1: out and and really get into or melt into another culture,
Speaker 1: like going to South America for example, where she actually
Speaker 1: to England. The overarching thing is we have we have
Speaker 1: and she also Cuban food, so she could have gone
Speaker 1: to Cuba, and she could have gone to Canada. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: could have been from Canada. But that there is a
Speaker 1: rabbit hole now she didn't speak with the distinctive accent.
Speaker 1: She had no accent apparently. But we have an extradition
Speaker 1: treaty with Britain then with Canada, so she would have
Speaker 1: probably gone to Brazil or somewhere like well, but if
Speaker 1: she had her new idea, she could have just gone
Speaker 1: over there with her new identity, you know. I mean
Speaker 1: that the thing is, if you have a brand new identity,
Speaker 1: why even bother staying here, why not just go there
Speaker 1: because they're not going to extradite you because they're not
Speaker 1: gonna be able to find you. Yeah. Also, it doesn't
Speaker 1: on that theory. I didn't read anything that said that
Speaker 1: she had like gods of money. No, nothing indicated that
Speaker 1: she was high on the hog or you did better
Speaker 1: than she should have been for being a secret chopper,
Speaker 1: yeah she I. Yeah, So I don't know she if
Speaker 1: she had, it sounded to me like she had a
Speaker 1: little bit of an estay. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: she had to go work as a stripper in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, so that actually I I kind of went
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole on this story, and I'd like
Speaker 1: to walk through that a little bit, if you guys
Speaker 1: are okay with that. Yeah, you're not going to take
Speaker 1: a close There's a lot of speculation that she was
Speaker 1: from somewhere on the West coast. We've kind of deduced
Speaker 1: that from five Washington, the Idaho thing, and the peel box,
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. I previnced she was. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: there's there's a couple of things that I've I've done.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time looking for her in
Speaker 1: databases of people who were convicted of crimes and wanted
Speaker 1: But what I came to the conclusion of, and then
Speaker 1: I started doing some more reading, is well, we would
Speaker 1: have had their fingerprints on file, so we would have
Speaker 1: found her pretty quick. So I abandoned that. But then
Speaker 1: that got me thinking to a couple of ways, which
Speaker 1: is in the mid eighties, somewhere in that range, there
Speaker 1: was a cup cup a number of different things that happened.
Speaker 1: There were protests that went wrong, so there were like
Speaker 1: nuclear protests that suddenly turned violent and people died. There
Speaker 1: was eco terrorism and protests that happened that suddenly turned
Speaker 1: violent and people were hurt and killed. So I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 1: and and it makes me think of have either of
Speaker 1: you ever read the book The Monkey Wrench Gang it's
Speaker 1: by Edward Abbey, and then he does another follow up
Speaker 1: book called Hey Duke Lives, which is based on a anyway.
Speaker 1: It's about a group of eco terrors who have to
Speaker 1: they try to hide themselves and regardless, it makes me
Speaker 1: think of that. So I could see her being, oh, hell,
Speaker 1: that went really bad, and I'm going to be on
Speaker 1: the hook for it. So she hasn't been prosecuted, she
Speaker 1: hasn't even been arrested. She just knows that she's going
Speaker 1: to the clink, so it's time to hide. I also
Speaker 1: then started going down the rabbit hole of Okay, well,
Speaker 1: she got her new identity, and she got her new breasts,
Speaker 1: and then she started stripping because that's an easy way
Speaker 1: to make money and you don't have to provide a
Speaker 1: lot of I d to be a stripper. Well okay,
Speaker 1: well why would you do that? What would And and
Speaker 1: I kind of I ran these weird threads and I
Speaker 1: won't tie them all together. But you know, the Idaho
Speaker 1: thing I kind of briefly mentioned her I started to
Speaker 1: go to earlier was there was a lot of supremacy
Speaker 1: movements in the eighties. Um, and these are also tied
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, there's a book I read recently
Speaker 1: that I was telling Joe about. I think I told
Speaker 1: Devon about the Turner Diaries, and part of the Turner
Speaker 1: Diaries is based on a supremacy movement that happened at
Speaker 1: the time that then turned into crime, So she could
Speaker 1: have been involved in that. Realized everybody's gonna get cleaned
Speaker 1: out because they're robbing banks now or stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and the only way I know to get away is
Speaker 1: just to completely disappear. But then that that's that's the
Speaker 1: reason I looked at it went well, no wonder she
Speaker 1: was stripping, she got an ID card, she didn't have
Speaker 1: a sout security card. But all you gotta do when
Speaker 1: you go to a strip club owner at that day
Speaker 1: and age, I imagine to say, hey, look at my card,
Speaker 1: I'm over eighteen. Can I take my clothes off and
Speaker 1: will you give me money? Yes. The thing about it
Speaker 1: is if you're involved in the in the white supremacist
Speaker 1: movement and there's violence going on and everything, and you
Speaker 1: don't agree with it and you want out, there's a
Speaker 1: really easy thing to do, and that is you go
Speaker 1: to the FBI. You inform on them, and they put
Speaker 1: you in the witness protection program that's expecting that you're
Speaker 1: not going to get tracked out. I mean the white
Speaker 1: supremacy movement. I equate it to kind of like the mob.
Speaker 1: They have feelers everywhere and there, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: the old school mob. Oh euratus is out, Oh hey
Speaker 1: we found you. We're not gonna say anything. Our guy,
Speaker 1: we paid him a hundred grant and he's gonna walk
Speaker 1: away from the hotel room and the maid's gonna find
Speaker 1: you hanging in the shower, and you know, there's serious
Speaker 1: fear when it comes to being dealing with those kind
Speaker 1: of organizations that I can see that the person goes
Speaker 1: you know what my option is, I hope it works
Speaker 1: out for the best, or just freaking disappear. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is, you know, I would
Speaker 1: I would be if I were if I were Jane Doe,
Speaker 1: I'd be looking at, say, you know, probably the witness
Speaker 1: Protection program. They probably know what they're doing as far
Speaker 1: as making me disappear, and they'll probably see to it
Speaker 1: that I have a little more comforts along the way,
Speaker 1: and I won't entirely be on my own broke. I'll
Speaker 1: you know, I'll have the FEDS there to provide me
Speaker 1: with at least, if not an income, at least job
Speaker 1: opportunities and stuff like that. Maybe she was in the
Speaker 1: witness Protection program and she decided it wasn't enough, so
Speaker 1: she decided to disappear from the witness protection program. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some some agents says, oh yeah, well, you know occasionally
Speaker 1: what people do is they do this and she's like,
Speaker 1: oh really, well, let me start going through. Well, I
Speaker 1: got nothing to do in this hotel room. Can I
Speaker 1: Can I go down the local library and just look
Speaker 1: through the books and look through the newspaper section. That
Speaker 1: could completely be I mean, this is again, as we
Speaker 1: do with so many of these random rabbit hole theories,
Speaker 1: as we stitched so many things together. But that's that's
Speaker 1: the thing that makes me wonder about her. Because the
Speaker 1: breast implants, I know, that is something that people talk
Speaker 1: about as they say, well, implants always have serial number,
Speaker 1: so let's get the serial number. Well that and she
Speaker 1: got them under her her newest identity, so that doesn't
Speaker 1: lead anywhere. So I mean, she's for all things said
Speaker 1: and done, she was really really good at what she did,
Speaker 1: which was hiding who she was. Yeah, she did a
Speaker 1: good job of it. Although again I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think it's rocket science. She but she was pretty thorough
Speaker 1: about the whole thing, and as far as serious go,
Speaker 1: I have one last theory. We so as we know,
Speaker 1: she was a little bit erratic. She kind of marched
Speaker 1: to a different drummer. So I could see where she
Speaker 1: might get an idea that maybe life wasn't that great.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't hell on Earth. She didn't have
Speaker 1: it wasn't fleeing a cult, didn't have abusive parents or
Speaker 1: anything like that. But life wasn't that thrilling for her,
Speaker 1: And she thought to herself, you know, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: if I changed my identity and move somewhere else, I'll
Speaker 1: become a whole new meet. So it's not just as
Speaker 1: I have a new name and a new location, I'll like,
Speaker 1: you know, turn into a different, cooler and more exciting
Speaker 1: person by just by the by having done this. Now
Speaker 1: I realized that sounds stupid, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: thank you, because I didn't know how to put it
Speaker 1: that that doesn't make any sense to me? Well yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean, how many times have you seen people
Speaker 1: do things that don't make any sense? I know? I mean,
Speaker 1: so I'm just saying that's a possibility that she might
Speaker 1: have really thought, I'm unhappy in my present life and
Speaker 1: not wing a cult or or a white supremacist gang,
Speaker 1: but I'm unhappy and maybe if I just changed my
Speaker 1: name and move somewhere else, things will get better and
Speaker 1: I'll be a happier person. It didn't really work out
Speaker 1: that way for but again, and that's just one more theory,
Speaker 1: and really it's probably not the best one, but what
Speaker 1: the hell? One more theory, right, But it's not gonna help. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also there's of course, she was fleeing the troop
Speaker 1: of Cobra, aren't we yea? He really is the chip
Speaker 1: Copra has really kind of reared his ugly little head again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: flapping those little bat wings. Yeah, so you guys have
Speaker 1: any more thoughts, any more theories? Um? No, other than
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that I'm probably in trouble because I've
Speaker 1: been scouring the FBI websites lately because of this case
Speaker 1: and all kinds of escaped convict websites, and I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that I've probably gotten flagged and I was probably
Speaker 1: being watched forever. Yeah, what do you bought? And what
Speaker 1: you bought? The Turner Die used to read them that
Speaker 1: you pay with a credit card. Actually, yeah, you're on
Speaker 1: watch list for that one, dude. Yeah, yeah, you should
Speaker 1: have paid cash. Yeah. Well, anyway, um, if you happen
Speaker 1: to know Jane Doe and as a child, we'd like
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Maybe you lived in Fife and
Speaker 1: you remember the people who got killed in the in
Speaker 1: the house fire, and you remember some little girls saying
Speaker 1: one of these days, I'm gonna steal her identity. We'd
Speaker 1: really love to hear from you. Other than that, that's
Speaker 1: about the end of it all. Let me give you
Speaker 1: some information that you're dying to hear. If you want
Speaker 1: to find us on iTunes and download us, of course
Speaker 1: can do that. We would appreciate it if you'd leave
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Speaker 1: it against us. We're trying to get it fixed. We're
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Speaker 1: make comments, send us money, but don't We also have
Speaker 1: a Facebook like group. We got a group and got
Speaker 1: the page. Yeah, we're having fun to people are posting
Speaker 1: stuff there, so that's always good. Yeah. Also there's there's
Speaker 1: our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find our episodes there and download them and we'll
Speaker 1: have links for you to look at and all sorts
Speaker 1: of cool stuff. And last of all, if you want
Speaker 1: to send us an email and communicate with us that way,
Speaker 1: then we're at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Am I missing anything? No, you hit it? I think
Speaker 1: you hit it? Oh yeah, Twitter, Sorry three weeks now
Speaker 1: and we still yeah yeah, yeah, I knew I was
Speaker 1: missing something. Yeah, so we're on Twitter, so find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter, friend us or something. However that Twitter comment
Speaker 1: narrating whatever you're yeah, because Twitter has a character limit
Speaker 1: and we couldn't do the s is that what happened?
Speaker 1: So we're thinking Sideway. I'm gonna come up with something
Speaker 1: more clever. Why don't you do thinking sideways Thinking Sideways?
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. We're here to change.
Speaker 1: I look for us outing to the handle thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: All right, that's it until next week to Loue. Thanks everybody,
Speaker 1: Bye guys